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422.61, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 422.61, \"end\": 422.63, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,246 --> 00:00:26,831\n好謝謝部長劉部長有請很主動謝謝柳澤部長早安這個今天討論的是行政區劃那行政區劃過去在北部的討論可能也是因為我是北部的民意代表說到的資訊也是比較多啦那也是因為在北部的行政區劃我們新北市的過去台北縣跟現在新北市的劃分\n\n2\n00:00:27,591 --> 00:00:50,721\n好像是過去因為可能就是適應為了台北市的發展然後為了調整台北市的發展那剩下的給新北市所以說台北縣新北市的一個形狀大家看起來會比較奇怪所以說在過去的前部長林毆昌在擔任基隆市長的時候也有提出他一些的構想包括基隆跟一些東北角跟北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市或者是跟汐止結合起來那到這個台北市變成大台北市\n\n3\n00:00:56,744 --> 00:01:05,907\n或者是現在的基隆市長謝國良他也有做過一些去年有做一些討論就是可能北北基桃合併或者是基隆市直接來跟這個新北市來做合併那這兩個方案那或者是說謝宜農先生不同政黨謝宜農先生也有提出來基隆跟汐止合併跟台北市合併那跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方\n\n4\n00:01:22,253 --> 00:01:47,137\n那身為內政部的角色面對社會上那麼多的討論你們現在有沒有自己的一些想法我不是說您支持哪些方案而是您有沒有看到現況的哪些問題他們可能一定是看到現況的某些問題所以才提出來一些方案來討論那您對於北北基這樣子的行政劃分您看到的一些問題那可能未來您認為可能會調整的方向大概是怎麼樣\n\n5\n00:01:47,768 --> 00:02:05,187\n是謝謝委員對於選區裡面或者是說對於周遭的一些城鄉發展的部分那我跟委員這個做一個比較大致上的我的想法第一個就是說很多委員會覺得說如果把所有的這些區劃的調整全部放在行政區劃法確實太複雜\n\n6\n00:02:07,369 --> 00:02:23,243\n因為它所有的地理條件也好或者人口或是發展的條件都不相同所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序但是在處理程序的過程當中不是只有由上而下譬如說由行政院跟縣市地方政府然後共同決定\n\n7\n00:02:23,863 --> 00:02:51,265\n它裡面還有立法院還有各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至如果以宜蘭為主還有鄉鎮代表會那這些都代表民意這是一個那另外一個就是說如果只有處理程序然後不處理實質也就是說我們把它劃進去譬如說汐止它現在的生活圈是以新北為主還是基隆為主還是台北為主可能您的選民就有不同的意見所以你要以生活圈來劃區劃\n\n8\n00:02:53,246 --> 00:03:20,576\n或者是要以譬如說可能是跟自己的剛剛有委員有提到我是原住民的區劃為主那就各種不同的想法但是呢我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去要把它收攏所以我們才會說爭議很大那過去呢這個歷任呢好多委員不管是朝野的委員都有提到甚至我們自己行政院有六次但六次都沒有辦法成功不是因為委員不夠努力而是因為意見太多\n\n9\n00:03:21,656 --> 00:03:42,983\n你說六四是指法的部分還是法律法律是意見無法收容那委員如果會程序歸程序啦或是說這個剛剛講的就是一些背景問題那我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題是實質上的問題就是我剛剛所說的很多委員會希望爭取最好的在自己的選區\n\n10\n00:03:44,543 --> 00:03:51,495\n不好的不要在我的選區就是也沒有好不好啦這個都是我們的民眾嘛不會有就像\n\n11\n00:03:52,817 --> 00:04:16,082\n基隆市長謝國良的立場或者說新北市長侯友宇的立場不一樣他們是首長嘛你說你要把新北市的六個區撥給基隆市那當然行政首長的立場一定會認為他一定會認為不是那麼的妥當嘛我過去的發言他的立場就是這樣子嘛但是不同樣的一個位置不一樣的行政單位所看到的角色不一樣\n\n12\n00:04:16,502 --> 00:04:33,531\n地方行政首長看到行政區畫的一個角度那我們內政部是看全國性的我們會有全國性的一個角度那一定是現況有一些需要討論的事情嘛所以說基隆其實基隆當然是首長討論比較多那當然我是系者民意代表嘛\n\n13\n00:04:33,931 --> 00:04:59,237\n系的民眾也會有相關的討論那一定是看到現況的問題比如說生活圈剛剛部長講的生活圈或是交通建設基隆捷運為什麼一條基隆捷運需要跨到這個台北市汐止基隆交通建設需要三個行政所擋在同一邊變成說地方建設的一個討論它的程序會比其他地方來的困難或者說增加一些程序所以大家才希望說在行政\n\n14\n00:05:00,197 --> 00:05:24,685\n出發方面能夠做一些檢討來減少一些我們行政程序上面本位主義上面的一些摩擦啦那所以才請教部長您看到的實際的問題有哪一些那可能可以怎麼樣來檢討我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法啦我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的如果你是屬於這個中央層級要決定的部分的話我可能要決定譬如說北北基島是不是一個大的生活圈\n\n15\n00:05:25,385 --> 00:05:40,735\n所以既然是一個大的生活圈在現在行政院他並沒有強制要求說這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市而是先解決您剛所說的捷運是不是可以四通八達這個北北基桃都可以在裡面甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭我想你也非常清楚\n\n16\n00:05:41,255 --> 00:05:53,785\n這是我們看到的但是地方裡面譬如說新北市你新北市區公所下面還有一些禮要不要調整那如果你調整出去或調整進來會牽涉到什麼會牽涉到議員的\n\n17\n00:05:56,347 --> 00:06:21,364\n額度又不一樣了,人口不一樣了對,其實對我的立場來說其實細子病種說不定我這個位置就不在了但其實我不是很在乎啦好的方案才是最重要啦那我知道可能今天臨時跟您討論這個比較敏感的問題你也不敢講太直接但我既然知道既然我們要再次討論行政區劃法那我想北北基這個問題是不是未來就會被討論出來那我們行政院必須要有自己行政院的一個\n\n18\n00:06:22,485 --> 00:06:50,746\n方案或者是立場跟想法來做一些討論我們行政院的方案譬如說國發會它有對於公共建設的部分會比較好因為可以跨縣市那但是呢財政部的話就財政收支因為不同部會我們內政部就管這個行政區域的主管機關所以我們會很困難那後續就是希望有一些更實質上的一些想法能夠做討論所以我們非常支持說如果用公聽會的方式把不管是跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來\n\n19\n00:06:52,028 --> 00:07:02,630\n請他們講一下他們對於這個行政區劃的基本上的看法後面理解可不可以提出比較建設性的方案的話我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見好謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5246\t26831\t好 謝謝 部長 劉部長有請很主動 謝謝柳澤部長 早安 這個今天討論的是行政區劃那行政區劃過去在北部的討論可能也是因為我是北部的民意代表 說到的資訊也是比較多啦那也是因為在北部的行政區劃我們新北市的 過去台北縣跟現在新北市的劃分\n27591\t50721\t好像是過去因為可能就是適應為了台北市的發展然後為了調整台北市的發展那剩下的給新北市所以說台北縣新北市的一個形狀大家看起來會比較奇怪所以說在過去的前部長林毆昌在擔任基隆市長的時候也有提出他一些的構想包括基隆跟一些東北角跟北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市或者是跟汐止結合起來那到這個台北市變成大台北市\n56744\t65907\t或者是現在的基隆市長謝國良他也有做過一些去年有做一些討論就是可能北北基桃合併或者是基隆市直接來跟這個新北市來做合併那這兩個方案那或者是說謝宜農先生不同政黨謝宜農先生也有提出來基隆跟汐止合併跟台北市合併那跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方\n82253\t107137\t那身為內政部的角色面對社會上那麼多的討論你們現在有沒有自己的一些想法我不是說您支持哪些方案而是您有沒有看到現況的哪些問題他們可能一定是看到現況的某些問題所以才提出來一些方案來討論那您對於北北基這樣子的行政劃分您看到的一些問題那可能未來您認為可能會調整的方向大概是怎麼樣\n107768\t125187\t是謝謝委員對於選區裡面或者是說對於周遭的一些城鄉發展的部分那我跟委員這個做一個比較大致上的我的想法第一個就是說很多委員會覺得說如果把所有的這些區劃的調整全部放在行政區劃法確實太複雜\n127369\t143243\t因為它所有的地理條件也好或者人口或是發展的條件都不相同所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序但是在處理程序的過程當中不是只有由上而下譬如說由行政院跟縣市地方政府然後共同決定\n143863\t171265\t它裡面還有立法院還有各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至如果以宜蘭為主還有鄉鎮代表會那這些都代表民意這是一個那另外一個就是說如果只有處理程序然後不處理實質也就是說我們把它劃進去譬如說汐止它現在的生活圈是以新北為主還是基隆為主還是台北為主可能您的選民就有不同的意見所以你要以生活圈來劃區劃\n173246\t200576\t或者是要以譬如說可能是跟自己的剛剛有委員有提到我是原住民的區劃為主那就各種不同的想法但是呢我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去要把它收攏所以我們才會說爭議很大那過去呢這個歷任呢好多委員不管是朝野的委員都有提到甚至我們自己行政院有六次但六次都沒有辦法成功不是因為委員不夠努力而是因為意見太多\n201656\t222983\t你說六四是指法的部分還是法律法律是意見無法收容那委員如果會程序歸程序啦或是說這個剛剛講的就是一些背景問題那我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題是實質上的問題就是我剛剛所說的很多委員會希望爭取最好的在自己的選區\n224543\t231495\t不好的不要在我的選區就是也沒有好不好啦這個都是我們的民眾嘛不會有就像\n232817\t256082\t基隆市長謝國良的立場或者說新北市長侯友宇的立場不一樣他們是首長嘛你說你要把新北市的六個區撥給基隆市那當然行政首長的立場一定會認為他一定會認為不是那麼的妥當嘛我過去的發言他的立場就是這樣子嘛但是不同樣的一個位置不一樣的行政單位所看到的角色不一樣\n256502\t273531\t地方行政首長看到行政區畫的一個角度那我們內政部是看全國性的我們會有全國性的一個角度那一定是現況有一些需要討論的事情嘛所以說基隆其實基隆當然是首長討論比較多那當然我是系者民意代表嘛\n273931\t299237\t系的民眾也會有相關的討論那一定是看到現況的問題比如說生活圈剛剛部長講的生活圈或是交通建設基隆捷運為什麼一條基隆捷運需要跨到這個台北市 汐止 基隆交通建設需要三個行政所擋在同一邊變成說地方建設的一個討論它的程序會比其他地方來的困難或者說增加一些程序所以大家才希望說在行政\n300197\t324685\t出發方面能夠做一些檢討來減少一些我們行政程序上面本位主義上面的一些摩擦啦那所以才請教部長您看到的實際的問題有哪一些那可能可以怎麼樣來檢討我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法啦我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的如果你是屬於這個中央層級要決定的部分的話我可能要決定譬如說北北基島是不是一個大的生活圈\n325385\t340735\t所以既然是一個大的生活圈在現在行政院他並沒有強制要求說這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市而是先解決您剛所說的捷運是不是可以四通八達這個北北基桃都可以在裡面甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭我想你也非常清楚\n341255\t353785\t這是我們看到的但是地方裡面譬如說新北市你新北市區公所下面還有一些禮要不要調整那如果你調整出去或調整進來會牽涉到什麼會牽涉到議員的\n356347\t381364\t額度又不一樣了,人口不一樣了對,其實對我的立場來說其實細子病種說不定我這個位置就不在了但其實我不是很在乎啦好的方案才是最重要啦那我知道可能今天臨時跟您討論這個比較敏感的問題你也不敢講太直接但我既然知道既然我們要再次討論行政區劃法那我想北北基這個問題是不是未來就會被討論出來那我們行政院必須要有自己行政院的一個\n382485\t410746\t方案或者是立場跟想法來做一些討論我們行政院的方案譬如說國發會它有對於公共建設的部分會比較好因為可以跨縣市那但是呢財政部的話就財政收支因為不同部會我們內政部就管這個行政區域的主管機關所以我們會很困難那後續就是希望有一些更實質上的一些想法能夠做討論所以我們非常支持說如果用公聽會的方式把不管是跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來\n412028\t422630\t請他們講一下他們對於這個行政區劃的基本上的看法後面理解可不可以提出比較建設性的方案的話我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","txt":"好 謝謝 部長 劉部長有請很主動 謝謝柳澤部長 早安 這個今天討論的是行政區劃那行政區劃過去在北部的討論可能也是因為我是北部的民意代表 說到的資訊也是比較多啦那也是因為在北部的行政區劃我們新北市的 過去台北縣跟現在新北市的劃分\n好像是過去因為可能就是適應為了台北市的發展然後為了調整台北市的發展那剩下的給新北市所以說台北縣新北市的一個形狀大家看起來會比較奇怪所以說在過去的前部長林毆昌在擔任基隆市長的時候也有提出他一些的構想包括基隆跟一些東北角跟北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市或者是跟汐止結合起來那到這個台北市變成大台北市\n或者是現在的基隆市長謝國良他也有做過一些去年有做一些討論就是可能北北基桃合併或者是基隆市直接來跟這個新北市來做合併那這兩個方案那或者是說謝宜農先生不同政黨謝宜農先生也有提出來基隆跟汐止合併跟台北市合併那跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方\n那身為內政部的角色面對社會上那麼多的討論你們現在有沒有自己的一些想法我不是說您支持哪些方案而是您有沒有看到現況的哪些問題他們可能一定是看到現況的某些問題所以才提出來一些方案來討論那您對於北北基這樣子的行政劃分您看到的一些問題那可能未來您認為可能會調整的方向大概是怎麼樣\n是謝謝委員對於選區裡面或者是說對於周遭的一些城鄉發展的部分那我跟委員這個做一個比較大致上的我的想法第一個就是說很多委員會覺得說如果把所有的這些區劃的調整全部放在行政區劃法確實太複雜\n因為它所有的地理條件也好或者人口或是發展的條件都不相同所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序但是在處理程序的過程當中不是只有由上而下譬如說由行政院跟縣市地方政府然後共同決定\n它裡面還有立法院還有各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至如果以宜蘭為主還有鄉鎮代表會那這些都代表民意這是一個那另外一個就是說如果只有處理程序然後不處理實質也就是說我們把它劃進去譬如說汐止它現在的生活圈是以新北為主還是基隆為主還是台北為主可能您的選民就有不同的意見所以你要以生活圈來劃區劃\n或者是要以譬如說可能是跟自己的剛剛有委員有提到我是原住民的區劃為主那就各種不同的想法但是呢我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去要把它收攏所以我們才會說爭議很大那過去呢這個歷任呢好多委員不管是朝野的委員都有提到甚至我們自己行政院有六次但六次都沒有辦法成功不是因為委員不夠努力而是因為意見太多\n你說六四是指法的部分還是法律法律是意見無法收容那委員如果會程序歸程序啦或是說這個剛剛講的就是一些背景問題那我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題是實質上的問題就是我剛剛所說的很多委員會希望爭取最好的在自己的選區\n不好的不要在我的選區就是也沒有好不好啦這個都是我們的民眾嘛不會有就像\n基隆市長謝國良的立場或者說新北市長侯友宇的立場不一樣他們是首長嘛你說你要把新北市的六個區撥給基隆市那當然行政首長的立場一定會認為他一定會認為不是那麼的妥當嘛我過去的發言他的立場就是這樣子嘛但是不同樣的一個位置不一樣的行政單位所看到的角色不一樣\n地方行政首長看到行政區畫的一個角度那我們內政部是看全國性的我們會有全國性的一個角度那一定是現況有一些需要討論的事情嘛所以說基隆其實基隆當然是首長討論比較多那當然我是系者民意代表嘛\n系的民眾也會有相關的討論那一定是看到現況的問題比如說生活圈剛剛部長講的生活圈或是交通建設基隆捷運為什麼一條基隆捷運需要跨到這個台北市 汐止 基隆交通建設需要三個行政所擋在同一邊變成說地方建設的一個討論它的程序會比其他地方來的困難或者說增加一些程序所以大家才希望說在行政\n出發方面能夠做一些檢討來減少一些我們行政程序上面本位主義上面的一些摩擦啦那所以才請教部長您看到的實際的問題有哪一些那可能可以怎麼樣來檢討我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法啦我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的如果你是屬於這個中央層級要決定的部分的話我可能要決定譬如說北北基島是不是一個大的生活圈\n所以既然是一個大的生活圈在現在行政院他並沒有強制要求說這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市而是先解決您剛所說的捷運是不是可以四通八達這個北北基桃都可以在裡面甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭我想你也非常清楚\n這是我們看到的但是地方裡面譬如說新北市你新北市區公所下面還有一些禮要不要調整那如果你調整出去或調整進來會牽涉到什麼會牽涉到議員的\n額度又不一樣了,人口不一樣了對,其實對我的立場來說其實細子病種說不定我這個位置就不在了但其實我不是很在乎啦好的方案才是最重要啦那我知道可能今天臨時跟您討論這個比較敏感的問題你也不敢講太直接但我既然知道既然我們要再次討論行政區劃法那我想北北基這個問題是不是未來就會被討論出來那我們行政院必須要有自己行政院的一個\n方案或者是立場跟想法來做一些討論我們行政院的方案譬如說國發會它有對於公共建設的部分會比較好因為可以跨縣市那但是呢財政部的話就財政收支因為不同部會我們內政部就管這個行政區域的主管機關所以我們會很困難那後續就是希望有一些更實質上的一些想法能夠做討論所以我們非常支持說如果用公聽會的方式把不管是跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來\n請他們講一下他們對於這個行政區劃的基本上的看法後面理解可不可以提出比較建設性的方案的話我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.246 --> 00:26.831\n好謝謝部長劉部長有請很主動謝謝柳澤部長早安這個今天討論的是行政區劃那行政區劃過去在北部的討論可能也是因為我是北部的民意代表說到的資訊也是比較多啦那也是因為在北部的行政區劃我們新北市的過去台北縣跟現在新北市的劃分\n\n00:27.591 --> 00:50.721\n好像是過去因為可能就是適應為了台北市的發展然後為了調整台北市的發展那剩下的給新北市所以說台北縣新北市的一個形狀大家看起來會比較奇怪所以說在過去的前部長林毆昌在擔任基隆市長的時候也有提出他一些的構想包括基隆跟一些東北角跟北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市或者是跟汐止結合起來那到這個台北市變成大台北市\n\n00:56.744 --> 01:05.907\n或者是現在的基隆市長謝國良他也有做過一些去年有做一些討論就是可能北北基桃合併或者是基隆市直接來跟這個新北市來做合併那這兩個方案那或者是說謝宜農先生不同政黨謝宜農先生也有提出來基隆跟汐止合併跟台北市合併那跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方\n\n01:22.253 --> 01:47.137\n那身為內政部的角色面對社會上那麼多的討論你們現在有沒有自己的一些想法我不是說您支持哪些方案而是您有沒有看到現況的哪些問題他們可能一定是看到現況的某些問題所以才提出來一些方案來討論那您對於北北基這樣子的行政劃分您看到的一些問題那可能未來您認為可能會調整的方向大概是怎麼樣\n\n01:47.768 --> 02:05.187\n是謝謝委員對於選區裡面或者是說對於周遭的一些城鄉發展的部分那我跟委員這個做一個比較大致上的我的想法第一個就是說很多委員會覺得說如果把所有的這些區劃的調整全部放在行政區劃法確實太複雜\n\n02:07.369 --> 02:23.243\n因為它所有的地理條件也好或者人口或是發展的條件都不相同所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序但是在處理程序的過程當中不是只有由上而下譬如說由行政院跟縣市地方政府然後共同決定\n\n02:23.863 --> 02:51.265\n它裡面還有立法院還有各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至如果以宜蘭為主還有鄉鎮代表會那這些都代表民意這是一個那另外一個就是說如果只有處理程序然後不處理實質也就是說我們把它劃進去譬如說汐止它現在的生活圈是以新北為主還是基隆為主還是台北為主可能您的選民就有不同的意見所以你要以生活圈來劃區劃\n\n02:53.246 --> 03:20.576\n或者是要以譬如說可能是跟自己的剛剛有委員有提到我是原住民的區劃為主那就各種不同的想法但是呢我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去要把它收攏所以我們才會說爭議很大那過去呢這個歷任呢好多委員不管是朝野的委員都有提到甚至我們自己行政院有六次但六次都沒有辦法成功不是因為委員不夠努力而是因為意見太多\n\n03:21.656 --> 03:42.983\n你說六四是指法的部分還是法律法律是意見無法收容那委員如果會程序歸程序啦或是說這個剛剛講的就是一些背景問題那我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題是實質上的問題就是我剛剛所說的很多委員會希望爭取最好的在自己的選區\n\n03:44.543 --> 03:51.495\n不好的不要在我的選區就是也沒有好不好啦這個都是我們的民眾嘛不會有就像\n\n03:52.817 --> 04:16.082\n基隆市長謝國良的立場或者說新北市長侯友宇的立場不一樣他們是首長嘛你說你要把新北市的六個區撥給基隆市那當然行政首長的立場一定會認為他一定會認為不是那麼的妥當嘛我過去的發言他的立場就是這樣子嘛但是不同樣的一個位置不一樣的行政單位所看到的角色不一樣\n\n04:16.502 --> 04:33.531\n地方行政首長看到行政區畫的一個角度那我們內政部是看全國性的我們會有全國性的一個角度那一定是現況有一些需要討論的事情嘛所以說基隆其實基隆當然是首長討論比較多那當然我是系者民意代表嘛\n\n04:33.931 --> 04:59.237\n系的民眾也會有相關的討論那一定是看到現況的問題比如說生活圈剛剛部長講的生活圈或是交通建設基隆捷運為什麼一條基隆捷運需要跨到這個台北市汐止基隆交通建設需要三個行政所擋在同一邊變成說地方建設的一個討論它的程序會比其他地方來的困難或者說增加一些程序所以大家才希望說在行政\n\n05:00.197 --> 05:24.685\n出發方面能夠做一些檢討來減少一些我們行政程序上面本位主義上面的一些摩擦啦那所以才請教部長您看到的實際的問題有哪一些那可能可以怎麼樣來檢討我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法啦我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的如果你是屬於這個中央層級要決定的部分的話我可能要決定譬如說北北基島是不是一個大的生活圈\n\n05:25.385 --> 05:40.735\n所以既然是一個大的生活圈在現在行政院他並沒有強制要求說這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市而是先解決您剛所說的捷運是不是可以四通八達這個北北基桃都可以在裡面甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭我想你也非常清楚\n\n05:41.255 --> 05:53.785\n這是我們看到的但是地方裡面譬如說新北市你新北市區公所下面還有一些禮要不要調整那如果你調整出去或調整進來會牽涉到什麼會牽涉到議員的\n\n05:56.347 --> 06:21.364\n額度又不一樣了,人口不一樣了對,其實對我的立場來說其實細子病種說不定我這個位置就不在了但其實我不是很在乎啦好的方案才是最重要啦那我知道可能今天臨時跟您討論這個比較敏感的問題你也不敢講太直接但我既然知道既然我們要再次討論行政區劃法那我想北北基這個問題是不是未來就會被討論出來那我們行政院必須要有自己行政院的一個\n\n06:22.485 --> 06:50.746\n方案或者是立場跟想法來做一些討論我們行政院的方案譬如說國發會它有對於公共建設的部分會比較好因為可以跨縣市那但是呢財政部的話就財政收支因為不同部會我們內政部就管這個行政區域的主管機關所以我們會很困難那後續就是希望有一些更實質上的一些想法能夠做討論所以我們非常支持說如果用公聽會的方式把不管是跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來\n\n06:52.028 --> 07:02.630\n請他們講一下他們對於這個行政區劃的基本上的看法後面理解可不可以提出比較建設性的方案的話我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見好謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.246,"end":26.831,"text":"好 謝謝 部長 劉部長有請很主動 謝謝柳澤部長 早安 這個今天討論的是行政區劃那行政區劃過去在北部的討論可能也是因為我是北部的民意代表 說到的資訊也是比較多啦那也是因為在北部的行政區劃我們新北市的 過去台北縣跟現在新北市的劃分"},{"start":27.591,"end":50.721,"text":"好像是過去因為可能就是適應為了台北市的發展然後為了調整台北市的發展那剩下的給新北市所以說台北縣新北市的一個形狀大家看起來會比較奇怪所以說在過去的前部長林毆昌在擔任基隆市長的時候也有提出他一些的構想包括基隆跟一些東北角跟北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市或者是跟汐止結合起來那到這個台北市變成大台北市"},{"start":56.744,"end":65.907,"text":"或者是現在的基隆市長謝國良他也有做過一些去年有做一些討論就是可能北北基桃合併或者是基隆市直接來跟這個新北市來做合併那這兩個方案那或者是說謝宜農先生不同政黨謝宜農先生也有提出來基隆跟汐止合併跟台北市合併那跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方"},{"start":82.253,"end":107.137,"text":"那身為內政部的角色面對社會上那麼多的討論你們現在有沒有自己的一些想法我不是說您支持哪些方案而是您有沒有看到現況的哪些問題他們可能一定是看到現況的某些問題所以才提出來一些方案來討論那您對於北北基這樣子的行政劃分您看到的一些問題那可能未來您認為可能會調整的方向大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":107.768,"end":125.187,"text":"是謝謝委員對於選區裡面或者是說對於周遭的一些城鄉發展的部分那我跟委員這個做一個比較大致上的我的想法第一個就是說很多委員會覺得說如果把所有的這些區劃的調整全部放在行政區劃法確實太複雜"},{"start":127.369,"end":143.243,"text":"因為它所有的地理條件也好或者人口或是發展的條件都不相同所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序但是在處理程序的過程當中不是只有由上而下譬如說由行政院跟縣市地方政府然後共同決定"},{"start":143.863,"end":171.265,"text":"它裡面還有立法院還有各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至如果以宜蘭為主還有鄉鎮代表會那這些都代表民意這是一個那另外一個就是說如果只有處理程序然後不處理實質也就是說我們把它劃進去譬如說汐止它現在的生活圈是以新北為主還是基隆為主還是台北為主可能您的選民就有不同的意見所以你要以生活圈來劃區劃"},{"start":173.246,"end":200.576,"text":"或者是要以譬如說可能是跟自己的剛剛有委員有提到我是原住民的區劃為主那就各種不同的想法但是呢我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去要把它收攏所以我們才會說爭議很大那過去呢這個歷任呢好多委員不管是朝野的委員都有提到甚至我們自己行政院有六次但六次都沒有辦法成功不是因為委員不夠努力而是因為意見太多"},{"start":201.656,"end":222.983,"text":"你說六四是指法的部分還是法律法律是意見無法收容那委員如果會程序歸程序啦或是說這個剛剛講的就是一些背景問題那我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題是實質上的問題就是我剛剛所說的很多委員會希望爭取最好的在自己的選區"},{"start":224.543,"end":231.495,"text":"不好的不要在我的選區就是也沒有好不好啦這個都是我們的民眾嘛不會有就像"},{"start":232.817,"end":256.082,"text":"基隆市長謝國良的立場或者說新北市長侯友宇的立場不一樣他們是首長嘛你說你要把新北市的六個區撥給基隆市那當然行政首長的立場一定會認為他一定會認為不是那麼的妥當嘛我過去的發言他的立場就是這樣子嘛但是不同樣的一個位置不一樣的行政單位所看到的角色不一樣"},{"start":256.502,"end":273.531,"text":"地方行政首長看到行政區畫的一個角度那我們內政部是看全國性的我們會有全國性的一個角度那一定是現況有一些需要討論的事情嘛所以說基隆其實基隆當然是首長討論比較多那當然我是系者民意代表嘛"},{"start":273.931,"end":299.237,"text":"系的民眾也會有相關的討論那一定是看到現況的問題比如說生活圈剛剛部長講的生活圈或是交通建設基隆捷運為什麼一條基隆捷運需要跨到這個台北市 汐止 基隆交通建設需要三個行政所擋在同一邊變成說地方建設的一個討論它的程序會比其他地方來的困難或者說增加一些程序所以大家才希望說在行政"},{"start":300.197,"end":324.685,"text":"出發方面能夠做一些檢討來減少一些我們行政程序上面本位主義上面的一些摩擦啦那所以才請教部長您看到的實際的問題有哪一些那可能可以怎麼樣來檢討我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法啦我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的如果你是屬於這個中央層級要決定的部分的話我可能要決定譬如說北北基島是不是一個大的生活圈"},{"start":325.385,"end":340.735,"text":"所以既然是一個大的生活圈在現在行政院他並沒有強制要求說這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市而是先解決您剛所說的捷運是不是可以四通八達這個北北基桃都可以在裡面甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭我想你也非常清楚"},{"start":341.255,"end":353.785,"text":"這是我們看到的但是地方裡面譬如說新北市你新北市區公所下面還有一些禮要不要調整那如果你調整出去或調整進來會牽涉到什麼會牽涉到議員的"},{"start":356.347,"end":381.364,"text":"額度又不一樣了,人口不一樣了對,其實對我的立場來說其實細子病種說不定我這個位置就不在了但其實我不是很在乎啦好的方案才是最重要啦那我知道可能今天臨時跟您討論這個比較敏感的問題你也不敢講太直接但我既然知道既然我們要再次討論行政區劃法那我想北北基這個問題是不是未來就會被討論出來那我們行政院必須要有自己行政院的一個"},{"start":382.485,"end":410.746,"text":"方案或者是立場跟想法來做一些討論我們行政院的方案譬如說國發會它有對於公共建設的部分會比較好因為可以跨縣市那但是呢財政部的話就財政收支因為不同部會我們內政部就管這個行政區域的主管機關所以我們會很困難那後續就是希望有一些更實質上的一些想法能夠做討論所以我們非常支持說如果用公聽會的方式把不管是跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來"},{"start":412.028,"end":422.63,"text":"請他們講一下他們對於這個行政區劃的基本上的看法後面理解可不可以提出比較建設性的方案的話我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（10時30分）謝謝，部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["廖委員先翔：部長早安，今天討論的是行政區劃法。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員先翔：行政區劃過去在北部的討論，可能也因為我是北部的民意代表，收到的資訊也比較多，也是因為北部的行政區劃，過去臺北縣跟現在新北市的劃分可能是為適應臺北市的發展、為了調整臺北市的發展，剩下的就給新北市，所以臺北縣（新北市）的形狀大家看起來就比較奇怪。","雖然過去的前部長林右昌在擔任基隆市長的時候也有提出他的一些構想，包括基隆跟東北角、北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市，或者是跟汐止結合起來納到臺北市變成大臺北市，或者是現在的基隆市長謝國樑去年也有做過一些討論，就是可讓北北基桃合併，或者是基隆市直接跟新北市合併這兩個方案，或者是不同政黨的吳怡農先生也有提出基隆、汐止跟臺北市合併，這跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方。","身為內政部的角色，面對社會上那麼多討論，你們現在有沒有一些自己的想法？並不是說您支持哪些方案，而是您有沒有看到現況的哪些問……他們一定是看到了現況的某些問題，所以才提出一些方案來討論，您對於北北基這樣的行政區劃分，及所看到的一些問題，未來你認為可能要調整的方向大概是怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員對於選區裡或是對周遭城鄉發展的部分……我跟委員說一個我大致上的想法。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["劉部長世芳：第一個就是，很多委員會覺得，如果把所有這些區劃的調整全部放到行政區劃法確實太複雜，因為所有的地理條件也好，或者人口、發展的條件都不相同，所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序。但是在處理程序的過程當中，不是只有由上而下，譬如由行政院跟縣市地方政府共同決定，它裡面還有立法院、各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至……如果以宜蘭為主的，還有鄉鎮代表會，這些都代表民意，這是一個。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["劉部長世芳：另外一個就是，如果只有處理程序而不處理實質，也就是說，我們把它劃進去，譬如說汐止，它現在的生活圈是以新北為主，還是基隆為主，還是臺北為主？您的選民可能就有不同的意見，所以你要以生活圈來區劃，或者是要以……譬如可能是跟自己的……剛剛有委員提到，我是原住民的區劃為主，那就有各種不同的想法。但是我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去，而要把它收攏，所我們才會說爭議很大。過去歷任好多委員，不管是朝野的委員都有提到，甚至我們自己行政院也有6次，但是6次都沒有辦法成功，並不是因為委員不夠努力，而是因為意見太多。"],["廖委員先翔：你說的6次是指法的部分，還是……"],["劉部長世芳：是法律。因為意見無法收攏，委員如果想要關心……"],["廖委員先翔：程序歸程序，或者是剛剛講的，就是一些背景……我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是，實質的部分就是我剛剛所說的，很多委員希望爭取最好的在自己的選區，不好的不要在我的選區。"],["廖委員先翔：也沒有好不好啦，這個都是我們的民眾，就像基隆市長謝國樑的立場，或者是新北市長侯友宜的立場不一樣，他們是首長，你說你要把新北市的6個區撥給基隆市，站在行政首長的立場一定會認為不是那麼地妥當，他過去發言的立場就是這樣子嘛！但是不同的位置、不一樣的行政單位所看到的角度就不一樣，地方行政首長有地方首長看到行政區劃的角度，你們內政部是看全國性的，會有全國性的角度，一定是現況有一些須要討論的事情，所以基隆……其實基隆還是首長討論得比較多，當然我是汐止的民意代表，汐止的民眾也會有相關的討論，也一定是看到現況的問題，比如說，剛剛部長講的生活圈，或者是交通建設，像一條基隆捷運是跨臺北市、汐止、基隆的交通建設，需要3個行政首長的同意，就變成地方建設討論的程序會比其他地方來得困難，或者是增加一些程序，所以大家才希望在行政區劃方面能夠做一些檢討，減少一些行政程序上面、本位主義上面的一些摩擦，所以才要請教部長，您看到的實際問題有哪一些？可能可以怎麼樣來檢討？"],["劉部長世芳：我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法，我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的，如果你是屬於中央層級要決定的部分，我可能要決定，譬如說北北基桃是不是一個大的生活圈，既然是一個大的生活圈，現在行政院並沒有強制要求要將這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市，而是先解決您剛剛所說的，捷運是不是可以四通八達，讓北北基桃都可以在裡面？甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭，我想你也非常清楚，這是我們看到的，但是地方裡面，譬如新北市，你新北市區公所下面還有一些里，要不要調整？如果你調整出去或調整進來，會牽涉到什麼？會牽涉到議員的額度，這就又不一樣了，因為人口不一樣，選區就不一樣。"],["廖委員先翔：其實就我的立場來說，汐止併走說不定我的這個位置就不在了……"],["劉部長世芳：對，人口就下降……"],["廖委員先翔：但我其實不是很在乎啦，好的方案才是最重要的。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員先翔：我知道，可能今天臨時跟你討論這個比較敏感的問題，你也不敢講得太直接，但我們既然要再次討論行政區劃法，我想北北基這個問題未來勢必會被討論出來，行政院就必須要有自己的方案或是立場跟想法來做一些討論。"],["劉部長世芳：我們行政院的方案，譬如說國發會對公共建設的部分會比較好……因為可以跨縣市，但是財政部的話就有財政收支，因為不同縣市……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，不同部會，內政部就是管行政區劃的主管機關嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以我們會很困擾。"],["廖委員先翔：後續就是希望有一些更實質上的想法能夠討論。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們非常支持能用公聽會的方式，不管是把跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來，請他們講一下他們對這個行政區劃基本上的看法或理解，可不可以提出比較建設性的方案，我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖先翔委員，委員跟我一樣，即便行政區劃會影響到我們的選區，但人民的利益還是比我們個人的政治利益更重要，謝謝。丁學忠委員發言之後，我們休息3分鐘。","現在請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃建賓","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案；二、審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「行政\n區劃法草案」案【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144001_00001"}}}