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\"跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 52.899, \"end\": 53.019, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 53.019, \"end\": 53.52, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 53.52, \"end\": 53.7, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 53.7, \"end\": 53.96, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 53.96, \"end\": 54.12, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 54.12, \"end\": 54.28, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 54.28, \"end\": 54.44, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 54.44, \"end\": 54.64, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 54.64, \"end\": 54.821, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 54.821, \"end\": 55.001, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 55.001, \"end\": 55.081, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", 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94.493, \"end\": 94.673, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 94.673, \"end\": 94.973, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 94.973, \"end\": 95.453, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 95.453, \"end\": 95.793, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 95.793, \"end\": 95.933, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 95.933, \"end\": 96.074, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 96.074, \"end\": 96.234, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 96.234, \"end\": 96.254, \"score\": 0.919}]}, {\"start\": 97.216, \"end\": 113.362, \"text\": \"被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議完為秘書長來立法院被選對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 97.216, \"end\": 98.276, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 98.276, \"end\": 98.957, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 98.957, \"end\": 99.157, \"score\": 0.989}, 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{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 235.151, \"end\": 235.612, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 235.612, \"end\": 236.413, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"宅\", \"start\": 236.413, \"end\": 240.237, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 240.237, \"end\": 240.397, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 240.397, \"end\": 240.798, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 240.798, \"end\": 240.938, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 240.938, \"end\": 241.218, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 241.218, \"end\": 241.318, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 241.318, \"end\": 241.478, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 241.478, \"end\": 241.959, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 241.959, \"end\": 242.259, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 242.259, \"end\": 242.379, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 242.379, \"end\": 242.68, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 242.68, \"end\": 242.7, \"score\": 0.059}]}, {\"start\": 243.513, \"end\": 263.773, \"text\": \"那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 243.513, \"end\": 244.314, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 244.314, \"end\": 244.414, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 244.414, \"end\": 245.455, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 245.455, \"end\": 245.715, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 245.715, \"end\": 245.915, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 245.915, \"end\": 247.397, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 247.397, \"end\": 249.118, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, 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{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 257.507, \"end\": 257.907, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 257.907, \"end\": 258.047, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 258.047, \"end\": 258.207, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 258.207, \"end\": 258.708, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 258.708, \"end\": 258.928, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 258.928, \"end\": 259.108, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 259.108, \"end\": 259.669, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 259.669, \"end\": 260.349, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 260.349, \"end\": 260.63, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 260.63, \"end\": 260.83, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 260.83, \"end\": 261.15, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"簽\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 261.15, \"end\": 261.25, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 261.25, \"end\": 261.45, 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273.95, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 273.95, \"end\": 274.13, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 274.13, \"end\": 274.43, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 274.43, \"end\": 276.312, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 276.312, \"end\": 277.813, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 277.813, \"end\": 277.913, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 277.913, \"end\": 278.113, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 278.113, \"end\": 278.574, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 278.574, \"end\": 278.714, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 278.714, \"end\": 279.074, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 279.074, \"end\": 280.435, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 280.435, 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0.976}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 286.54, \"end\": 286.72, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 286.72, \"end\": 286.821, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 286.821, \"end\": 286.881, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 286.881, \"end\": 286.901, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 286.901, \"end\": 287.161, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 287.161, \"end\": 288.122, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 288.122, \"end\": 288.702, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 288.702, \"end\": 288.902, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 288.902, \"end\": 289.803, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 289.803, \"end\": 290.003, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 290.003, \"end\": 290.303, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 290.303, \"end\": 290.404, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 290.404, \"end\": 290.424, \"score\": 0.99}]}, {\"start\": 291.563, \"end\": 312.501, \"text\": \"因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查啦那這一個部長你認為,比如說部長你的司機啊你的司機啦,你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 291.563, \"end\": 291.924, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 291.924, \"end\": 292.064, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 292.064, \"end\": 293.785, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"植\", \"start\": 293.785, \"end\": 293.965, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 293.965, \"end\": 294.646, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 294.646, \"end\": 294.846, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 294.846, \"end\": 295.406, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 295.406, \"end\": 296.848, \"score\": 0.947}, 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301.672, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 301.672, \"end\": 302.012, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 302.012, \"end\": 302.132, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 302.132, \"end\": 302.893, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 302.893, \"end\": 303.333, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 303.333, \"end\": 303.773, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 303.773, \"end\": 303.894, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 303.894, \"end\": 304.194, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 304.194, \"end\": 304.594, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 304.594, \"end\": 306.155, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 306.155, \"end\": 306.256, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 306.256, \"end\": 306.396, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 306.396, \"end\": 306.736, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 306.736, \"end\": 307.757, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 307.757, \"end\": 308.217, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 308.217, \"end\": 308.537, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 308.537, \"end\": 308.698, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 308.698, \"end\": 309.078, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 309.078, \"end\": 309.558, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 309.558, \"end\": 309.678, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 309.678, \"end\": 309.818, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 309.818, \"end\": 310.599, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 310.599, \"end\": 310.719, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": 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\"這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了那這當然對立委來說我們就把它打開來看看完之後看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦我看完之後我就把它碎掉了這是一種\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 533.121, \"end\": 533.241, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 533.241, \"end\": 533.441, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 533.441, \"end\": 534.742, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 534.742, \"end\": 534.902, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 534.902, \"end\": 534.962, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 534.962, \"end\": 535.282, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 535.282, \"end\": 535.482, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 535.482, \"end\": 535.602, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 535.602, \"end\": 535.642, \"score\": 0.501}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 535.642, \"end\": 535.862, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 535.862, \"end\": 536.002, 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875.614, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 875.614, \"end\": 875.834, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 875.834, \"end\": 875.974, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 875.974, \"end\": 875.994, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 875.994, \"end\": 876.014, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 876.014, \"end\": 876.055, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 876.055, \"end\": 876.075, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 876.075, \"end\": 876.095, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 876.095, \"end\": 876.115, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 876.115, \"end\": 876.195, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 876.195, \"end\": 876.215, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 876.215, \"end\": 876.235, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 876.235, \"end\": 876.255, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:21,345 --> 00:00:46,535\n今天國安會沒來嘛國安會什麼時候發公文到我們委員會沒有從來都沒有委員會的同仁委員會的主秘什麼時候收到國安會的公文要請假都沒有他從頭到尾都沒有請假我問一下可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文\n\n2\n00:00:52,899 --> 00:01:09,431\n跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們\n\n3\n00:01:19,164 --> 00:01:36,254\n我們沒有收到公文我再問一下歷史上有沒有國安會的秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院\n\n4\n00:01:37,216 --> 00:01:53,362\n被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議完為秘書長來立法院被選對\n\n5\n00:02:05,307 --> 00:02:19,546\n那個時候是為了譴責金浦聰嘛金浦聰不該來嘛所以要譴責嘛我說在蘇雄甘武國安會秘書長非法律案跟這個預算審查的時候出現在立法院的備詢啦\n\n6\n00:02:26,383 --> 00:02:39,285\n這可能還需要請醫事人員查一下好了我們現在先給醫事人員去查一下那之前那個顧立雄擔任那個的時候他是都會請假啦\n\n7\n00:02:40,584 --> 00:03:09,301\n就沒有來啊這請假對他會請假那現在是我這邊跟那個議事人員這邊都沒有收到請假好OK好所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩議事人員尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過這第一個好那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長謝謝麻煩局長部長\n\n8\n00:03:16,670 --> 00:03:39,637\n好,我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到這些關於這些國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數,幾十件幾十件這樣包括這個國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦\n\n9\n00:03:46,882 --> 00:04:02,700\n這個都有好那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有這個都有也都有好OK好\n\n10\n00:04:03,513 --> 00:04:23,773\n那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核好\n\n11\n00:04:24,502 --> 00:04:50,424\n那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、在任、調任那如果說,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查\n\n12\n00:04:51,563 --> 00:05:12,501\n因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查啦那這一個部長你認為,比如說部長你的司機啊你的司機啦,你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的\n\n13\n00:05:13,527 --> 00:05:23,262\n阿你想查你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口\n\n14\n00:05:24,397 --> 00:05:43,158\n所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以討論啦可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是\n\n15\n00:05:43,678 --> 00:06:04,214\n那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡\n\n16\n00:06:08,530 --> 00:06:30,167\n那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個植物是必須要被查核可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜\n\n17\n00:06:33,129 --> 00:06:55,837\n南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員\n\n18\n00:07:00,769 --> 00:07:20,219\n假設這個部長就住在這個官社,我沒有說法和部長,因為我不知道住哪裡啦假設某部長啊,他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊嘛那這個部長每天回來的時間啊,這個清潔人員啊、什麼人員、什麼人員門口什麼的他就每天記錄啊,欸這個\n\n19\n00:07:23,462 --> 00:07:30,914\n我就簡單舉這種例子社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去怎麼有人寄怎麼一人付一支寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭這個該不該被討論啊\n\n20\n00:07:37,603 --> 00:07:57,323\n我覺得這個是可以討論啦但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候就社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太合理說到最後大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說這一個一拉一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點好不好加速這一個討論\n\n21\n00:07:59,545 --> 00:08:23,854\n那這一個我只能講說這個相關的比如境外敵對勢力可能接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員國會助理是其中一種對吧國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證\n\n22\n00:08:25,199 --> 00:08:50,419\n他就進來了那有些是相關的職員有些都不是公務員那像這一條線我舉例子譬如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有一個信封然後裡面有一個加密的這個信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄相關的這一個文件現在問題來了\n\n23\n00:08:53,121 --> 00:09:19,294\n這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了那這當然對立委來說我們就把它打開來看看完之後看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦我看完之後我就把它碎掉了這是一種\n\n24\n00:09:20,202 --> 00:09:39,131\n第二種我看完之後我就跟助理講說拿去碎掉那我的助理就看到了嘛第三種我也沒有講我就整包啊都拿去碎掉都拿去回收欸這個文就出去了國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範\n\n25\n00:09:41,618 --> 00:09:58,370\n我覺得像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡助理只要喵一下他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範\n\n26\n00:10:00,287 --> 00:10:19,439\n這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把它納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法\n\n27\n00:10:22,621 --> 00:10:49,850\n來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪\n\n28\n00:10:50,450 --> 00:11:15,697\n阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法\n\n29\n00:11:16,957 --> 00:11:36,927\n我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那這個你們的報告裡頭有提到財產\n\n30\n00:11:42,628 --> 00:12:03,977\n我們公務員有這個財產單位不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這一些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報\n\n31\n00:12:05,185 --> 00:12:27,271\n那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定\n\n32\n00:12:29,251 --> 00:12:49,930\n所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況那個可能就進入司法調查不是特殊查\n\n33\n00:12:51,153 --> 00:12:57,979\n我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策\n\n34\n00:13:05,117 --> 00:13:29,528\n引導暗示明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發\n\n35\n00:13:30,268 --> 00:13:54,225\n有告發或者中選會現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案來偵辦的這個沒有不是我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是我們就是採客觀公正毋安毋忠的一個辦案的態度這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊手法啦手法啦這一些齁這個都是\n\n36\n00:13:55,045 --> 00:14:18,359\n檢察官負責的這個檢察官他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個啊你給我布檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你給我布說這個有的沒的還是說\n\n37\n00:14:20,580 --> 00:14:36,255\n你就是檢察官你的手法你的手法你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案你掌握的訊息怎麼樣怎麼樣你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了對這個是委員說的就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK好謝謝好謝謝王委員那在這邊跟那個委員會還有\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n21345\t46535\t今天國安會沒來嘛國安會什麼時候發公文到我們委員會沒有從來都沒有委員會的同仁委員會的主秘什麼時候收到國安會的公文要請假都沒有他從頭到尾都沒有請假我問一下可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文\n52899\t69431\t跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們\n79164\t96254\t我們沒有收到公文我再問一下歷史上有沒有國安會的秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院\n97216\t113362\t被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議完為秘書長來立法院被選對\n125307\t139546\t那個時候是為了譴責金浦聰嘛金浦聰不該來嘛所以要譴責嘛我說在蘇雄甘武國安會秘書長非法律案跟這個預算審查的時候出現在立法院的備詢啦\n146383\t159285\t這可能還需要請醫事人員查一下好了我們現在先給醫事人員去查一下那之前那個顧立雄擔任那個的時候他是都會請假啦\n160584\t189301\t就沒有來啊 這請假對 他會請假 那現在是我這邊跟那個議事人員這邊都沒有收到請假好 OK 好 所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩議事人員尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過 這第一個好 那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長 謝謝麻煩局長 部長\n196670\t219637\t好,我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到這些關於這些國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數,幾十件幾十件這樣包括這個國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦\n226882\t242700\t這個都有好 那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有 這個都有也都有 好 OK 好\n243513\t263773\t那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核好\n264502\t290424\t那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、在任、調任那如果說,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查\n291563\t312501\t因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查啦那這一個部長你認為,比如說部長你的司機啊你的司機啦,你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的\n313527\t323262\t阿你想查你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口\n324397\t343158\t所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以討論啦可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是\n343678\t364214\t那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡\n368530\t390167\t那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個植物是必須要被查核可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜\n393129\t415837\t南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員\n420769\t440219\t假設這個部長就住在這個官社,我沒有說法和部長,因為我不知道住哪裡啦假設某部長啊,他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊嘛那這個部長每天回來的時間啊,這個清潔人員啊、什麼人員、什麼人員門口什麼的他就每天記錄啊,欸這個\n443462\t450914\t我就簡單舉這種例子 社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去 怎麼有人寄 怎麼一人付一支 寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭 這個該不該被討論啊\n457603\t477323\t我覺得這個是可以討論啦 但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候就社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太合理 說到最後大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說這一個一拉一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點 好不好 加速這一個討論\n479545\t503854\t那這一個 我只能講說這個相關的 比如境外敵對勢力可能接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員 國會助理是其中一種對吧 國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證\n505199\t530419\t他就進來了那有些是相關的職員有些都不是公務員那像這一條線我舉例子譬如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有一個信封然後裡面有一個加密的這個信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄相關的這一個文件現在問題來了\n533121\t559294\t這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了那這當然對立委來說我們就把它打開來看看完之後看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦我看完之後我就把它碎掉了這是一種\n560202\t579131\t第二種我看完之後我就跟助理講說拿去碎掉那我的助理就看到了嘛第三種我也沒有講我就整包啊都拿去碎掉 都拿去回收欸 這個文就出去了國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範\n581618\t598370\t我覺得像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡助理只要喵一下他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範\n600287\t619439\t這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把它納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法\n622621\t649850\t來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪\n650450\t675697\t阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法\n676957\t696927\t我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那這個你們的報告裡頭有提到財產\n702628\t723977\t我們公務員有這個財產單位不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這一些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報\n725185\t747271\t那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定\n749251\t769930\t所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會 我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況 那個可能就進入司法調查 不是特殊查\n771153\t777979\t我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策\n785117\t809528\t引導 暗示 明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發\n810268\t834225\t有告發或者中選會 現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案 來偵辦的這個沒有 不是我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是我們就是採客觀公正 毋安毋忠的一個辦案的態度這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊 手法啦 手法啦 這一些齁 這個都是\n835045\t858359\t檢察官負責的這個檢察官他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個啊你給我布檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你給我布說這個有的沒的還是說\n860580\t876255\t你就是檢察官 你的手法 你的手法 你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案 你掌握的訊息 怎麼樣怎麼樣 你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了對 這個是委員說的 就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那在這邊跟那個委員會還有\n","txt":"今天國安會沒來嘛國安會什麼時候發公文到我們委員會沒有從來都沒有委員會的同仁委員會的主秘什麼時候收到國安會的公文要請假都沒有他從頭到尾都沒有請假我問一下可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文\n跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們\n我們沒有收到公文我再問一下歷史上有沒有國安會的秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院\n被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議完為秘書長來立法院被選對\n那個時候是為了譴責金浦聰嘛金浦聰不該來嘛所以要譴責嘛我說在蘇雄甘武國安會秘書長非法律案跟這個預算審查的時候出現在立法院的備詢啦\n這可能還需要請醫事人員查一下好了我們現在先給醫事人員去查一下那之前那個顧立雄擔任那個的時候他是都會請假啦\n就沒有來啊 這請假對 他會請假 那現在是我這邊跟那個議事人員這邊都沒有收到請假好 OK 好 所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩議事人員尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過 這第一個好 那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長 謝謝麻煩局長 部長\n好,我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到這些關於這些國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數,幾十件幾十件這樣包括這個國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦\n這個都有好 那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有 這個都有也都有 好 OK 好\n那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核好\n那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、在任、調任那如果說,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查\n因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查啦那這一個部長你認為,比如說部長你的司機啊你的司機啦,你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的\n阿你想查你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口\n所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以討論啦可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是\n那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡\n那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個植物是必須要被查核可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜\n南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員\n假設這個部長就住在這個官社,我沒有說法和部長,因為我不知道住哪裡啦假設某部長啊,他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊嘛那這個部長每天回來的時間啊,這個清潔人員啊、什麼人員、什麼人員門口什麼的他就每天記錄啊,欸這個\n我就簡單舉這種例子 社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去 怎麼有人寄 怎麼一人付一支 寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭 這個該不該被討論啊\n我覺得這個是可以討論啦 但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候就社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太合理 說到最後大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說這一個一拉一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點 好不好 加速這一個討論\n那這一個 我只能講說這個相關的 比如境外敵對勢力可能接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員 國會助理是其中一種對吧 國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證\n他就進來了那有些是相關的職員有些都不是公務員那像這一條線我舉例子譬如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有一個信封然後裡面有一個加密的這個信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄相關的這一個文件現在問題來了\n這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了那這當然對立委來說我們就把它打開來看看完之後看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦我看完之後我就把它碎掉了這是一種\n第二種我看完之後我就跟助理講說拿去碎掉那我的助理就看到了嘛第三種我也沒有講我就整包啊都拿去碎掉 都拿去回收欸 這個文就出去了國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範\n我覺得像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡助理只要喵一下他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範\n這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把它納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法\n來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪\n阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法\n我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那這個你們的報告裡頭有提到財產\n我們公務員有這個財產單位不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這一些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報\n那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定\n所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會 我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況 那個可能就進入司法調查 不是特殊查\n我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策\n引導 暗示 明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發\n有告發或者中選會 現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案 來偵辦的這個沒有 不是我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是我們就是採客觀公正 毋安毋忠的一個辦案的態度這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊 手法啦 手法啦 這一些齁 這個都是\n檢察官負責的這個檢察官他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個啊你給我布檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你給我布說這個有的沒的還是說\n你就是檢察官 你的手法 你的手法 你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案 你掌握的訊息 怎麼樣怎麼樣 你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了對 這個是委員說的 就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那在這邊跟那個委員會還有\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:21.345 --> 00:46.535\n今天國安會沒來嘛國安會什麼時候發公文到我們委員會沒有從來都沒有委員會的同仁委員會的主秘什麼時候收到國安會的公文要請假都沒有他從頭到尾都沒有請假我問一下可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文\n\n00:52.899 --> 01:09.431\n跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們\n\n01:19.164 --> 01:36.254\n我們沒有收到公文我再問一下歷史上有沒有國安會的秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院\n\n01:37.216 --> 01:53.362\n被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議完為秘書長來立法院被選對\n\n02:05.307 --> 02:19.546\n那個時候是為了譴責金浦聰嘛金浦聰不該來嘛所以要譴責嘛我說在蘇雄甘武國安會秘書長非法律案跟這個預算審查的時候出現在立法院的備詢啦\n\n02:26.383 --> 02:39.285\n這可能還需要請醫事人員查一下好了我們現在先給醫事人員去查一下那之前那個顧立雄擔任那個的時候他是都會請假啦\n\n02:40.584 --> 03:09.301\n就沒有來啊這請假對他會請假那現在是我這邊跟那個議事人員這邊都沒有收到請假好OK好所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩議事人員尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過這第一個好那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長謝謝麻煩局長部長\n\n03:16.670 --> 03:39.637\n好,我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到這些關於這些國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數,幾十件幾十件這樣包括這個國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦\n\n03:46.882 --> 04:02.700\n這個都有好那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有這個都有也都有好OK好\n\n04:03.513 --> 04:23.773\n那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核好\n\n04:24.502 --> 04:50.424\n那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、在任、調任那如果說,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查\n\n04:51.563 --> 05:12.501\n因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查啦那這一個部長你認為,比如說部長你的司機啊你的司機啦,你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的\n\n05:13.527 --> 05:23.262\n阿你想查你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口\n\n05:24.397 --> 05:43.158\n所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以討論啦可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是\n\n05:43.678 --> 06:04.214\n那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡\n\n06:08.530 --> 06:30.167\n那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個植物是必須要被查核可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜\n\n06:33.129 --> 06:55.837\n南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員\n\n07:00.769 --> 07:20.219\n假設這個部長就住在這個官社,我沒有說法和部長,因為我不知道住哪裡啦假設某部長啊,他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊嘛那這個部長每天回來的時間啊,這個清潔人員啊、什麼人員、什麼人員門口什麼的他就每天記錄啊,欸這個\n\n07:23.462 --> 07:30.914\n我就簡單舉這種例子社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去怎麼有人寄怎麼一人付一支寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭這個該不該被討論啊\n\n07:37.603 --> 07:57.323\n我覺得這個是可以討論啦但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候就社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太合理說到最後大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說這一個一拉一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點好不好加速這一個討論\n\n07:59.545 --> 08:23.854\n那這一個我只能講說這個相關的比如境外敵對勢力可能接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員國會助理是其中一種對吧國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證\n\n08:25.199 --> 08:50.419\n他就進來了那有些是相關的職員有些都不是公務員那像這一條線我舉例子譬如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有一個信封然後裡面有一個加密的這個信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄相關的這一個文件現在問題來了\n\n08:53.121 --> 09:19.294\n這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了那這當然對立委來說我們就把它打開來看看完之後看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦我看完之後我就把它碎掉了這是一種\n\n09:20.202 --> 09:39.131\n第二種我看完之後我就跟助理講說拿去碎掉那我的助理就看到了嘛第三種我也沒有講我就整包啊都拿去碎掉都拿去回收欸這個文就出去了國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範\n\n09:41.618 --> 09:58.370\n我覺得像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡助理只要喵一下他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範\n\n10:00.287 --> 10:19.439\n這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把它納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法\n\n10:22.621 --> 10:49.850\n來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪\n\n10:50.450 --> 11:15.697\n阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法\n\n11:16.957 --> 11:36.927\n我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那這個你們的報告裡頭有提到財產\n\n11:42.628 --> 12:03.977\n我們公務員有這個財產單位不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這一些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報\n\n12:05.185 --> 12:27.271\n那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定\n\n12:29.251 --> 12:49.930\n所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況那個可能就進入司法調查不是特殊查\n\n12:51.153 --> 12:57.979\n我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策\n\n13:05.117 --> 13:29.528\n引導暗示明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發\n\n13:30.268 --> 13:54.225\n有告發或者中選會現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案來偵辦的這個沒有不是我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是我們就是採客觀公正毋安毋忠的一個辦案的態度這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊手法啦手法啦這一些齁這個都是\n\n13:55.045 --> 14:18.359\n檢察官負責的這個檢察官他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個啊你給我布檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你給我布說這個有的沒的還是說\n\n14:20.580 --> 14:36.255\n你就是檢察官你的手法你的手法你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案你掌握的訊息怎麼樣怎麼樣你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了對這個是委員說的就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK好謝謝好謝謝王委員那在這邊跟那個委員會還有\n\n","segments":[{"start":21.345,"end":46.535,"text":"今天國安會沒來嘛國安會什麼時候發公文到我們委員會沒有從來都沒有委員會的同仁委員會的主秘什麼時候收到國安會的公文要請假都沒有他從頭到尾都沒有請假我問一下可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文"},{"start":52.899,"end":69.431,"text":"跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們"},{"start":79.164,"end":96.254,"text":"我們沒有收到公文我再問一下歷史上有沒有國安會的秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院"},{"start":97.216,"end":113.362,"text":"被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議完為秘書長來立法院被選對"},{"start":125.307,"end":139.546,"text":"那個時候是為了譴責金浦聰嘛金浦聰不該來嘛所以要譴責嘛我說在蘇雄甘武國安會秘書長非法律案跟這個預算審查的時候出現在立法院的備詢啦"},{"start":146.383,"end":159.285,"text":"這可能還需要請醫事人員查一下好了我們現在先給醫事人員去查一下那之前那個顧立雄擔任那個的時候他是都會請假啦"},{"start":160.584,"end":189.301,"text":"就沒有來啊 這請假對 他會請假 那現在是我這邊跟那個議事人員這邊都沒有收到請假好 OK 好 所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩議事人員尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過 這第一個好 那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長 謝謝麻煩局長 部長"},{"start":196.67,"end":219.637,"text":"好,我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到這些關於這些國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數,幾十件幾十件這樣包括這個國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦"},{"start":226.882,"end":242.7,"text":"這個都有好 那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有 這個都有也都有 好 OK 好"},{"start":243.513,"end":263.773,"text":"那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核好"},{"start":264.502,"end":290.424,"text":"那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、在任、調任那如果說,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查"},{"start":291.563,"end":312.501,"text":"因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查啦那這一個部長你認為,比如說部長你的司機啊你的司機啦,你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的"},{"start":313.527,"end":323.262,"text":"阿你想查你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口"},{"start":324.397,"end":343.158,"text":"所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以討論啦可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是"},{"start":343.678,"end":364.214,"text":"那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡"},{"start":368.53,"end":390.167,"text":"那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個植物是必須要被查核可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜"},{"start":393.129,"end":415.837,"text":"南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員"},{"start":420.769,"end":440.219,"text":"假設這個部長就住在這個官社,我沒有說法和部長,因為我不知道住哪裡啦假設某部長啊,他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊嘛那這個部長每天回來的時間啊,這個清潔人員啊、什麼人員、什麼人員門口什麼的他就每天記錄啊,欸這個"},{"start":443.462,"end":450.914,"text":"我就簡單舉這種例子 社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去 怎麼有人寄 怎麼一人付一支 寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭 這個該不該被討論啊"},{"start":457.603,"end":477.323,"text":"我覺得這個是可以討論啦 但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候就社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太合理 說到最後大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說這一個一拉一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點 好不好 加速這一個討論"},{"start":479.545,"end":503.854,"text":"那這一個 我只能講說這個相關的 比如境外敵對勢力可能接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員 國會助理是其中一種對吧 國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證"},{"start":505.199,"end":530.419,"text":"他就進來了那有些是相關的職員有些都不是公務員那像這一條線我舉例子譬如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有一個信封然後裡面有一個加密的這個信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄相關的這一個文件現在問題來了"},{"start":533.121,"end":559.294,"text":"這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了那這當然對立委來說我們就把它打開來看看完之後看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦我看完之後我就把它碎掉了這是一種"},{"start":560.202,"end":579.131,"text":"第二種我看完之後我就跟助理講說拿去碎掉那我的助理就看到了嘛第三種我也沒有講我就整包啊都拿去碎掉 都拿去回收欸 這個文就出去了國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範"},{"start":581.618,"end":598.37,"text":"我覺得像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡助理只要喵一下他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範"},{"start":600.287,"end":619.439,"text":"這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把它納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法"},{"start":622.621,"end":649.85,"text":"來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪"},{"start":650.45,"end":675.697,"text":"阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法"},{"start":676.957,"end":696.927,"text":"我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那這個你們的報告裡頭有提到財產"},{"start":702.628,"end":723.977,"text":"我們公務員有這個財產單位不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這一些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報"},{"start":725.185,"end":747.271,"text":"那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定"},{"start":749.251,"end":769.93,"text":"所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會 我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況 那個可能就進入司法調查 不是特殊查"},{"start":771.153,"end":777.979,"text":"我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策"},{"start":785.117,"end":809.528,"text":"引導 暗示 明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發"},{"start":810.268,"end":834.225,"text":"有告發或者中選會 現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案 來偵辦的這個沒有 不是我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是我們就是採客觀公正 毋安毋忠的一個辦案的態度這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊 手法啦 手法啦 這一些齁 這個都是"},{"start":835.045,"end":858.359,"text":"檢察官負責的這個檢察官他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個啊你給我布檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你給我布說這個有的沒的還是說"},{"start":860.58,"end":876.255,"text":"你就是檢察官 你的手法 你的手法 你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案 你掌握的訊息 怎麼樣怎麼樣 你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了對 這個是委員說的 就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那在這邊跟那個委員會還有"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時26分）我先擦一下，我剛剛看第一個在質詢，很恐怖！","我先會議詢問一下，主席，今天國安會沒來嘛？"],["主席：沒有。"],["王委員義川：國安會是什麼時候發公文到我們委員會？"],["主席：沒有，從來都沒有，他完全沒有……"],["王委員義川：都沒有？請教委員會的同仁、委員會的主秘是什麼時候收到國安會的公文？"],["主席：都沒有，他從頭到尾都沒有請假。"],["王委員義川：我可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文？"],["張主任秘書智為：跟委員報告，我們沒有收到公文。"],["王委員義川：你們沒有收到公文？到現在都沒收到公文？"],["張主任秘書智為：原則上，通常公文都會先送到召委辦公室那裡。"],["王委員義川：我說委員會什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知？"],["張主任秘書智為：我們沒有收到公文。"],["王委員義川：都沒有？到現在都沒有？確定？"],["張主任秘書智為：是。"],["王委員義川：OK。我再問一下，歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢的？"],["主席：王委員，我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點，因為2013年的時候，當時段宜康……"],["王委員義川：沒有，我是問國安會秘書長有沒有因為預算案跟法律案之外的會議來立法院備詢的？那個時候是為了譴責金溥聰，因為金溥聰不來，所以要譴責他！但我是問歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長在非法律案跟預算審查的時候出現在立法院備詢的？"],["主席：這可能還需要請議事人員查一下，我們先給議事人員時間，讓他們有時間去查一下。"],["王委員義川：OK。"],["主席：之前顧立雄擔任的時候，他是都會請假。"],["王委員義川：沒有來就請假對啊！"],["主席：對，他會請假，但現在是我這邊跟議事人員那邊都沒有收到請假通知。"],["王委員義川：OK，所以請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長在非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢的？"],["主席：好，這再麻煩議事人員處理。"],["王委員義川：尤其是金溥聰的任內有沒有來過？這是第一個。","那我就開始我的質詢。請調查局長跟法務部長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩局長、部長。"],["王委員義川：我先請教部長，在你們的報告裡頭有提到關於國安案件每年大概都兩位數，幾十件、幾十件這樣，包括國安法跟反滲透法，請問這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦，還是相關單位的人發現可疑，請你們幫忙辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個都有。"],["王委員義川：好，最近比較熱門的那幾個案子，是單位自己提出來的，還是你們發現來辦的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：都有，這個都有。"],["王委員義川：也都有？OK。我再請問調查局局長，請問被安全查核的人知不知道他正在被查核？"],["陳局長白立：委員好。知道，必須要經過他的同意，因為有很多查核的項目是要他同意簽了名以後，我們才會去進行查核。"],["王委員義川：好，這一個特殊查核，剛剛你們的報告也提到，因為是初任或轉任。"],["陳局長白立：初任、再任、調任。"],["王委員義川：好，如果首長發現跟他相關的人，假設是他的司機，他覺得他的司機可能洩密，他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫忙查？"],["陳局長白立：因為不在這1,328個職務列表裡面，我們是沒有法源的依據來查。"],["王委員義川：好。部長，你來當部長有司機嘛！如果你認為你的司機怪怪的，你想查，你會怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為司機不是公務員，他只是一個僱員而已……"],["王委員義川：所以這會不會是破口？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們就要看立法，看有沒有把機要人員及司機全部都列入，這個是可以考慮的。"],["王委員義川：可以討論啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以討論。"],["王委員義川：第二個，調查局的報告裡頭有寫，你們現在是用職務嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：現在提到可不可以用揭密的條件跟接觸到資訊的內容，請問你們現在的想法，就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關機密內容的定義會設定在哪裡？就是說有摸到這些資訊、有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核，那一條線你們會劃在哪裡？"],["陳局長白立：那條線，其實應該要看他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密內容，我舉個例子來講，譬如說受查核的這個職務是必須要被查核的，可是他周邊的這些機要人員、會經手公文的這些人並沒有受到特殊查核……"],["王委員義川：沒錯！"],["陳局長白立：這個時候這個範圍就應該要囊括進來。"],["王委員義川：當然也不能無限上綱。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：所以這個事情我覺得要加速，也許是加速社會上的討論，說一個比較合理的。我舉個例子，譬如說行政院在信義路有一個信義官舍，信義官舍裡面總有清潔人員、整個環境維護的人員，假設部長就住在這個官舍，我沒有說是法務部長，因為我不知道你住哪裡。假設某部長可能也經常接觸這些國安資訊，然後部長每天回來的時間，清潔人員、什麼人員、什麼人員等等，他就每天紀錄，我就簡單舉這種例子，就是社會比較容易認知……"],["陳局長白立：我瞭解委員的意思。"],["王委員義川：就是說這個人都幾點回去，都有一個人負責記錄，記錄下來後不知道拿去給誰，在你們現在的思考裡頭，這個該不該被討論？"],["陳局長白立：我覺得這個是可以討論，但是這樣子的面向是不是太廣了？這個我們要思考。"],["王委員義川：所以我說在社會討論的時候，有的人覺得這樣太誇張，這樣討論到最後大家都要被查，這不合理！但是對於那一條線，我覺得速度要快一點，要加速討論。"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員義川：好。我只能講說相關的境外敵對勢力可能接觸的人員，國會助理是其中一種，對吧？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：但在立法院裡頭進進出出的不是只有國會助理，立法院進進出出非常多人，他只要換個證就進來了，有些是相關的職員，但都不是公務員。像這一條線，我舉個例子，比如我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件，密件就是外面有一個信封，裡面有一個加密的信封，然後有一個公文書，可能是相關的會議紀錄或文件。現在問題來了，這些拿來我們辦公室以後都沒有叫我們簽收，東西放著人就走了，當然對立委來說，我們就把它打開來看，看完之後就是關鍵了，看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了。因為他沒有叫我回收，給我之後他就走了，那一份我看完之後就把它碎掉了，這是一種。第二種是我看完之後就跟助理說：拿去碎掉！那我的助理就看到了。第三種是我沒有講，我可能就把整包或桌上一大堆都拿去碎掉、回收，這個文就洩漏出去了，國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範。假如我沒有自己碎，我的助理可能就會看到，比如我叫助理幫我拿去碎，助理只要瞄一下，他就會看到那個文件大概是什麼，可能是封面或者是第1頁之類的，國家該不該規範這個部分？"],["陳局長白立：針對這個部分，如果是立法院內的一般公務人員，目前可以透過行政院人總的特查辦法把他納進來；如果是立法委員的助理，因為他不是公務人員，所以這個部分應該要由立法院的組織法授權訂定子法作為執行的依據，規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員從事職務運行相關的助理是不是要納入查核，這個我們尊重立法院。"],["王委員義川：我請問一下，假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的，比如最近每次都請客吃飯，或最近買一臺新車，又或常常說他要出國，我可不可以說局長：你幫我查一下他？我可以做這個動作嗎？"],["陳局長白立：委員可以，可是我們不能做。"],["王委員義川：委員可以是什麼意思？"],["陳局長白立：委員可以主動提出來請我們查，但是我們沒有法源的依據，沒辦法配合委員。"],["王委員義川：所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理、B助理、C助理？"],["陳局長白立：但是我會回復委員，說我們沒有執法的依據，沒有辦法。"],["王委員義川：我可以提，但是你們不會做？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：OK。假設部長要提，然後希望你們查，他是一個公務員，然後部長提了，請你們查，當事人也知道他被查，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：如果是按照特查辦法，當事人必須要簽署，他同意，我們才會進行查核。"],["王委員義川：你們的報告裡頭又有提到財產，因為公務員有財產來源不明罪，公職人員要財產申報，有時候公務員的職等並沒有那麼高，所以不用申報，可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊或每天跟在誰的旁邊，這些人可能就是隨著部長進退，反正他也不是公務員。這些人的財產原則上不用申報，你們做特殊查核的時候，要查他的財產，也要他同意，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：如果他不同意呢？"],["陳局長白立：現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人（被查核人）同意，他如果不同意的話，我們就會告訴他的用人機關，說這個人不同意。至於要不要用，就由用人機關來決定。"],["王委員義川：如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關不提報，調查局是不會去查的就對了？"],["陳局長白立：不會，我們是被動，用人機關函查，我們才會查。"],["王委員義川：除非接到檢舉？"],["陳局長白立：檢舉又是另外一個狀況，可能就進入司法調查，不是特殊查核。"],["王委員義川：我最後問一下部長，最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署、偽造連署，法務部有沒有政策引導、暗示、明示，說只辦誰、不辦誰？部長有沒有下過這種命令？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是絕對沒有。因為這個都是民眾告發或中選會告發才來偵辦，有犯罪嫌疑的，當然檢調要嚴辦，我們沒有什麼立場跟任何考量，純粹就是案件的偵辦。"],["王委員義川：就是有人去告發？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有人告發或中選會，目前都是中選會或者民眾來告發才立案偵辦的，我們沒有任何的考量。我們就是採客觀公正、勿枉勿縱的辦案態度，沒有任何的政治考量。"],["王委員義川：包括偵辦的方式、手法，這一些都是負責的檢察官自己去決定、研判嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個案，我們不會去介入、干涉、指導，個案完全是由檢察官指揮偵辦……"],["王委員義川：法務部會不會跟檢察官說，你這樣偵辦社會觀感不好，不要這樣、太粗魯等等，會嗎？法務部會說這種話嗎？還是你就是檢察官，你的手法或你要怎麼偵辦，那是你針對個案掌握的訊息怎麼樣就去辦，完全是檢察官自己決定就對了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，委員說的就是目前偵辦的現況。"],["王委員義川：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。那在這邊跟委員會還有王委員報告一下，剛剛王委員請我們詢問的事項，就是過往到底國安會有沒有派員來。剛剛議事人員有查到第9屆第1會期第7次全體委員會議，當時的召委是段宜康委員，確實也不是法律案或預算案，國安會也有派員到場。"],["吳委員思瑤：當時的主題是什麼？"],["主席：當時的主題是「就『國家資安體系及國家資通安全科技中心』籌備情形，進行專題報告，並備質詢」，這是當時的紀錄。我再重申一次是立法院第9屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會會議，當時的召委是段宜康委員，就我剛剛說明的題目，他們有進行專題報告跟備詢，當時國安會確實有派員到場。今天的會議對於國安會，我們沒有指定要哪一位來，他們當時是派諮詢委員到場，我們今天也是沒有指定要任何人，所以今天國安會的簽到欄是空白的，各位可以去看，我們是依循過往的作法去做。"],["王委員義川：請教一個……"],["主席：我在這邊跟王委員報告一下，確實完全沒有來請假，國安會這次是沒有。剛剛在各位委員還沒有到場的時候，我們有請議事人員詢問國安會，國安會也是表示，他們依據憲政制度，不願意到場。剛剛議事人員跟我如此回報，以上是就剛剛王義川委員的詢問加以說明。","接下來，我先作會議程序宣告：第一、待會兒在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後，休息5分鐘。這是第一件事。第二件事就是現在有委員提出臨時提案，依據本會往例是在11點左右處理，但是時間有點太近了，所以我預先宣告處理時間，本日11點40分處理委員所提出的臨時提案，屆時如果有委員正在詢答，我們就是在該委員詢答完畢之後，馬上進行處理。","接下來請王鴻薇委員進行詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}}