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00:00:54,001\n我想因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議最大的困難告訴我們最大的困難因為過去每年都有解凍的程序部長您也擔任過立法委員現在跟過去如果有不同現在最大的困難在哪裡如果現在要提出解凍的話\n\n4\n00:00:54,801 --> 00:01:22,309\n就是有一些規定比如說業務要執行三成啊然後這個因為洞協一半然後因為立法院會期也可能五月底那這個時間的壓縮在五月底之前像現在都可以提出來過去其實就三成的那個規定我們有一些業務是還不符合可以提出解凍的標準三成的規定到現在我們一年12個月現在已經快要五月了如果再一個月大概就六個月就半年了\n\n5\n00:01:23,189 --> 00:01:51,874\n我們到現在如果連30%都還執行不了第一可能我們的執行力有問題第二我們的預算幅編太多所以它足以硬硬所以你到現在連30%都還沒用到因為它的標準就很簡單它就是30%你就可以提出解凍如果這樣都還做不到我能想到的大概就這兩個理由因為你還沒送出來因為有些國際合作案你一簽下去之後\n\n6\n00:01:53,154 --> 00:02:07,775\n她沒有辦法分階段來執行YesNo那個就是1跟0的問題我想您很清楚我說您擔任過立法委員所謂的30%一定是你一般的常態業務如果你提出來如果這個被\n\n7\n00:02:08,716 --> 00:02:25,558\n在野黨或者甚至執政黨有意見的話立法院有意見的話其實都可以再做說明可是連提都還沒有提這三十八答不到我就剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的你在國際合作國際合作你也可以進行到百分之三十啊不管你是哪一部分\n\n8\n00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:33,663\n所謂的不確定性是你在執行完成以後才會有不確定性可是你在計劃的當下當你在要這個預算的時候你沒有告訴我們立法院說這個有不確定性我們甚至可以不要編是這樣嗎如果30%都還沒有達到我們現在已經過了快要已經五月了這個部分請我們外交部自己本身去做完檢討以後為什麼不能夠提出來如果30%都還辦不到那是執行不利\n\n9\n00:02:56,733 --> 00:03:00,158\n這是要跟外交部提醒的不要把它再推到在野黨上面那另外今天部長也有提到我們現在根據外交部的消息南非政府已經在要求\n\n10\n00:03:11,995 --> 00:03:19,160\n台灣駐南非的代表處在三月底之前要遷離首都並且將住處甚至降級而且更名這個部分我們直接被台北我們本來是台北聯絡代表處現在直接被改名成為台北商務辦事處這個部分部長在說明的時候有提到說我們目前還是運作正常我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常\n\n11\n00:03:40,174 --> 00:03:55,180\n因為我們甚至在被降級的部分他本來是準大使的這樣的一個地位那你現在變成這樣子我們對等措施是什麼我們也看不到\n\n12\n00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:22,803\n因為除了牽管或降級或涉及到一些名稱我們都一一有在就是說除了我們拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外也在協商中那你剛剛委員講的其實他雖然有那樣子說但實質上我們目前還是按照原來來運作除了沒有牽管以外就是有一些\n\n13\n00:04:23,784 --> 00:04:38,424\n外交上面的互動並不是如他們自己先前有些宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情那這代表有空間所以有空間我們據理力爭也希望說能夠讓他知道利弊得失啦\n\n14\n00:04:38,905 --> 00:04:43,208\n他國內外現在的壓力也很大那他也應該會開始去考慮啊如果單方的行為可能會引致的後果部長我們現在已經被直接改名了他要求我們簽我們還沒簽沒有錯可是我們已經被改名那你從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處我說其實他在等級上面已經差了一大截準大使變成我們一個只是一個貿易的一個代表處那另外\n\n15\n00:05:06,442 --> 00:05:13,725\n目前實質上還是維持原來的關係那我們以前什麼名稱都不重要為什麼我們在國際上面會想要那種所以如果我們要讓全體人民有共識你應該很清楚的讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的然後是我們要持續的力爭而不是告訴我們運作正常可是我們看到的它是不正常\n\n16\n00:05:33,672 --> 00:05:35,933\n因為他直接把我們歸類我們現在已經四五月了他已經把我們改掉了嘛你一點辦法都沒有我們說要對等的措施也看不到他直接把我們降級以外而且他把我們歸類成國際組織\n\n17\n00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,583\n他把我們歸類成國際組織我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有可是我們被改變了那這個部分我想要請教的是因為就這個問題的延伸我們目前還看不到不過我們請\n\n18\n00:06:08,980 --> 00:06:24,512\n外交部可以提供相關的書面資料我們要怎麼樣去因應因為我們看到的部長剛剛也提到說像南非的住管是我們的資產那我們過去有許多的前例都是管處直接就被沒收而且還移交給中國\n\n19\n00:06:26,433 --> 00:06:42,665\n使用我們看到很多的案例像巴拿馬那時候我們在住巴拿馬的那個使館我們大概有2200萬美元這已經大概台幣7億多了可是在當時直接就移交給中國\n\n20\n00:06:43,906 --> 00:07:00,561\n那另外還有多米尼加斷交的時候我們的很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產像薩爾瓦多我們赤字3000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管然後做其他的公共用途還有非洲的案例有聖多美\n\n21\n00:07:07,588 --> 00:07:21,835\n普林西比這個也是我們有很多的國會大廈啊或者他們原住的總統府等等其實那時候大概也都被他們要求我們台方人員都必須要撤離管社還有布吉納法所還有像\n\n22\n00:07:23,235 --> 00:07:35,104\n所羅門群島還有吉里巴斯等等我念到的這些其實我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭一定會爭取可是我們從頭到現在看起來只要被拿走的我們就拿不回來了而且好像也沒有發生的機會\n\n23\n00:07:41,289 --> 00:07:54,820\n也沒有特別的管道那像南非這個也是因為他已經逐步逐步從去年十月到現在又說三月那現在沒有明確的日期可是他已經直接就這樣做了對我們都是在國格上面一個很大的損害而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響甚至我們未來像這樣的一個管產或者像我們台商的這些利益他怎麼辦管產的部分部長您怎麼看\n\n24\n00:08:10,168 --> 00:08:25,237\n因為他並沒有辦法就是如期的迫使我們簽管現在我們還在使用中那我們也會具體力爭那會窮盡一些方法那他也感受到壓力來自於內外的所以這個時候有空間我們繼續協商我們要捍衛我們的館產\n\n25\n00:08:28,579 --> 00:08:50,349\n因為我們也找了律師做了研究他們也找了有律師跟這個有關的所以我想這個大家研究完就會知道就是財產的所屬第一個財產的所屬我剛剛念了一堆所有的國家其實只要跟我們斷交以後他幾乎我們都拿不回來所以我們在還可以因應的時候你要怎麼樣確保這是一個方向因為另外一個\n\n26\n00:08:55,091 --> 00:08:57,834\n部分就是紐時的報導就是說川普他原理要簽行政命令要大幅改組國務院而且要砍非洲行動跟關閉當地大使館還有領事館\n\n27\n00:09:10,606 --> 00:09:14,130\n那我們在這個部分因為我們說對於南非的談判我們是找美國日本甚至還有G7的國家幫我們發聲然後幫我們說話可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方甚至有點是驕傲因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展\n\n28\n00:09:32,068 --> 00:09:47,233\n可是像這樣子的一個狀況美國現在突然有這樣子的一個做法這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎剛剛部長說我們所有的狀況你都有做沙盤推演這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎有因為當然美國的政府\n\n29\n00:09:47,853 --> 00:10:12,510\n因為國務卿Rubio也剛剛有表示並沒有說先前傳的那樣但是就算是有什麼樣變化我們台灣在非洲的外交關係就是我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交然後我們另外有五個代表處持續會發展那再來就是跟南非他自己現在面對到的就是美國把他的駐美大使趕走\n\n30\n00:10:13,751 --> 00:10:30,002\n驅除出境列為不受歡迎人物阿哥啊就是說非洲這個所謂成長的機會法案是關係著包括南非所以他們為南非內部有很多的討論要不要屈從中國因為南非嘗到他的外交自主嘛還是說應該跟台灣之間的關係應該要修好\n\n31\n00:10:35,546 --> 00:10:39,147\n對因為你剛剛提的是美國我說美國現在有一個這樣的做法那美國會怎麼做那是美國一個大國他有辦法去跟南非或者整個歐洲抗衡我們現在沒有辦法我們自己的邦交國我們自己鞏固沒有錯可是像南非我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題我們不要再多做掩飾如果萬一因為\n\n32\n00:10:57,895 --> 00:10:59,956\n原來還有美國可以幫我們講話或者其他的你說G7就是歐洲啦其他的國家可以幫我們講話現在顯然美國都已經跟他交惡的情況之下我們要怎麼樣自保這個外交部要先想清楚而且你的沙盤推演裡面這個應該要列入重點項目因為我們已經沒有靠山了\n\n33\n00:11:18,786 --> 00:11:20,708\n所以這樣有可能我們很多的資產還有我們台商還有我們原來在那裡多年所做的努力其實都有可能會化為烏有這個部分外交部是應該要提前應應的你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分好不好\n\n34\n00:11:33,817 --> 00:11:42,307\n好我會都親自主持那另外因為剛剛有提到震災的部分不好意思主席再跟您接一點點時間震災的捐款剛剛部長也提到任何的捐款都應該要嚴格的監督因為這個都是大家\n\n35\n00:11:52,097 --> 00:11:56,160\n捐出來而且都是救命錢所以非常的重要所以在這裡對於緬甸政災的捐款或者每一筆他一分一毫其實都牽涉到大家的愛心那過去我們在對於烏克蘭的一個提供的一些資助還有包括我們之前也提過在\n\n36\n00:12:15,803 --> 00:12:21,288\n立法院也提到的就是有國內成立的商會民間自己成立的商會他們公開募款說要捐給敘利亞的這個善款還有之前我們用透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的這幾個部分我們請外交部提供現在進行的一個狀況不管你的查核或者我們後續的執行的結果\n\n37\n00:12:38,021 --> 00:12:41,825\n比如說我們透過捷克的NGO的組織然後捐給烏克蘭的這個部分因為已經大概過快一年了吧這個進度到底怎麼樣執行的成果到底怎麼樣到底送了哪些物資也希望我們用一樣的嚴格的監督的態度來面對它好不好請提供資料書面資料謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n972\t1933\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長部長早委員早\n17523\t33586\t外交部其實在很多的互動上面應該主動一點應該是比較好啦過去跟現在好像有一點點不一樣部長剛剛有委員提到就是我們預算凍結的部分我們現在如果要提出解凍最大的困難在哪裡\n35894\t54001\t我想因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議最大的困難告訴我們最大的困難因為過去每年都有解凍的程序部長您也擔任過立法委員現在跟過去如果有不同現在最大的困難在哪裡如果現在要提出解凍的話\n54801\t82309\t就是有一些規定比如說業務要執行三成啊然後這個因為洞協一半然後因為立法院會期也可能五月底那這個時間的壓縮在五月底之前像現在都可以提出來過去其實就三成的那個規定我們有一些業務是還不符合可以提出解凍的標準三成的規定到現在我們一年12個月現在已經快要五月了如果再一個月大概就六個月就半年了\n83189\t111874\t我們到現在如果連30%都還執行不了第一可能我們的執行力有問題第二我們的預算幅編太多所以它足以硬硬所以你到現在連30%都還沒用到因為它的標準就很簡單它就是30%你就可以提出解凍如果這樣都還做不到我能想到的大概就這兩個理由因為你還沒送出來因為有些國際合作案你一簽下去之後\n113154\t127775\t她沒有辦法分階段來執行Yes No 那個就是1跟0的問題我想您很清楚我說您擔任過立法委員所謂的30%一定是你一般的常態業務如果你提出來如果這個被\n128716\t145558\t在野黨或者甚至執政黨有意見的話立法院有意見的話其實都可以再做說明可是連提都還沒有提這三十八答不到我就剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的你在國際合作國際合作你也可以進行到百分之三十啊不管你是哪一部分\n147000\t153663\t所謂的不確定性是你在執行完成以後才會有不確定性可是你在計劃的當下當你在要這個預算的時候你沒有告訴我們立法院說這個有不確定性我們甚至可以不要編是這樣嗎如果30%都還沒有達到我們現在已經過了快要已經五月了這個部分請我們外交部自己本身去做完檢討以後為什麼不能夠提出來如果30%都還辦不到那是執行不利\n176733\t180158\t這是要跟外交部提醒的不要把它再推到在野黨上面那另外今天部長也有提到我們現在根據外交部的消息南非政府已經在要求\n191995\t199160\t台灣駐南非的代表處在三月底之前要遷離首都並且將住處甚至降級而且更名這個部分我們直接被台北我們本來是台北聯絡代表處現在直接被改名成為台北商務辦事處這個部分部長在說明的時候有提到說我們目前還是運作正常我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常\n220174\t235180\t因為我們甚至在被降級的部分他本來是準大使的這樣的一個地位那你現在變成這樣子我們對等措施是什麼我們也看不到\n236960\t262803\t因為除了牽管或降級或涉及到一些名稱我們都一一有在就是說除了我們拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外也在協商中那你剛剛委員講的其實他雖然有那樣子說但實質上我們目前還是按照原來來運作除了沒有牽管以外就是有一些\n263784\t278424\t外交上面的互動並不是如他們自己先前有些宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情那這代表有空間所以有空間我們據理力爭也希望說能夠讓他知道利弊得失啦\n278905\t283208\t他國內外現在的壓力也很大那他也應該會開始去考慮啊如果單方的行為可能會引致的後果部長我們現在已經被直接改名了他要求我們簽我們還沒簽沒有錯可是我們已經被改名那你從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處我說其實他在等級上面已經差了一大截準大使變成我們一個只是一個貿易的一個代表處那另外\n306442\t313725\t目前實質上還是維持原來的關係那我們以前什麼名稱都不重要為什麼我們在國際上面會想要那種所以如果我們要讓全體人民有共識你應該很清楚的讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的然後是我們要持續的力爭而不是告訴我們運作正常可是我們看到的它是不正常\n333672\t335933\t因為他直接把我們歸類我們現在已經四五月了他已經把我們改掉了嘛你一點辦法都沒有我們說要對等的措施也看不到他直接把我們降級以外而且他把我們歸類成國際組織\n351360\t353583\t他把我們歸類成國際組織我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有可是我們被改變了那這個部分我想要請教的是因為就這個問題的延伸我們目前還看不到不過我們請\n368980\t384512\t外交部可以提供相關的書面資料我們要怎麼樣去因應因為我們看到的部長剛剛也提到說像南非的住管是我們的資產那我們過去有許多的前例都是管處直接就被沒收而且還移交給中國\n386433\t402665\t使用我們看到很多的案例像巴拿馬那時候我們在住巴拿馬的那個使館我們大概有2200萬美元這已經大概台幣7億多了可是在當時直接就移交給中國\n403906\t420561\t那另外還有多米尼加斷交的時候我們的很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產像薩爾瓦多我們赤字3000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管然後做其他的公共用途還有非洲的案例有聖多美\n427588\t441835\t普林西比這個也是我們有很多的國會大廈啊或者他們原住的總統府等等其實那時候大概也都被他們要求我們台方人員都必須要撤離管社還有布吉納法所還有像\n443235\t455104\t所羅門群島還有吉里巴斯等等我念到的這些其實我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭一定會爭取可是我們從頭到現在看起來只要被拿走的我們就拿不回來了而且好像也沒有發生的機會\n461289\t474820\t也沒有特別的管道那像南非這個也是因為他已經逐步逐步從去年十月到現在又說三月那現在沒有明確的日期可是他已經直接就這樣做了對我們都是在國格上面一個很大的損害而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響甚至我們未來像這樣的一個管產或者像我們台商的這些利益他怎麼辦管產的部分部長您怎麼看\n490168\t505237\t因為他並沒有辦法就是如期的迫使我們簽管現在我們還在使用中那我們也會具體力爭那會窮盡一些方法那他也感受到壓力來自於內外的所以這個時候有空間我們繼續協商我們要捍衛我們的館產\n508579\t530349\t因為我們也找了律師做了研究他們也找了有律師跟這個有關的所以我想這個大家研究完就會知道就是財產的所屬第一個財產的所屬我剛剛念了一堆所有的國家其實只要跟我們斷交以後他幾乎我們都拿不回來所以我們在還可以因應的時候你要怎麼樣確保這是一個方向因為另外一個\n535091\t537834\t部分就是紐時的報導就是說川普他原理要簽行政命令要大幅改組國務院而且要砍非洲行動跟關閉當地大使館還有領事館\n550606\t554130\t那我們在這個部分因為我們說對於南非的談判我們是找美國日本甚至還有G7的國家幫我們發聲然後幫我們說話可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方甚至有點是驕傲因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展\n572068\t587233\t可是像這樣子的一個狀況美國現在突然有這樣子的一個做法這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎剛剛部長說我們所有的狀況你都有做沙盤推演這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎有 因為當然美國的政府\n587853\t612510\t因為國務卿Rubio也剛剛有表示並沒有說先前傳的那樣但是就算是有什麼樣變化我們台灣在非洲的外交關係就是我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交然後我們另外有五個代表處持續會發展那再來就是跟南非他自己現在面對到的就是美國把他的駐美大使趕走\n613751\t630002\t驅除出境 列為不受歡迎人物阿哥啊 就是說非洲這個所謂成長的機會法案是關係著包括南非所以他們為南非內部有很多的討論要不要屈從中國因為南非嘗到他的外交自主嘛還是說應該跟台灣之間的關係應該要修好\n635546\t639147\t對因為你剛剛提的是美國我說美國現在有一個這樣的做法那美國會怎麼做那是美國一個大國他有辦法去跟南非或者整個歐洲抗衡我們現在沒有辦法我們自己的邦交國我們自己鞏固沒有錯可是像南非我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題我們不要再多做掩飾如果萬一因為\n657895\t659956\t原來還有美國可以幫我們講話或者其他的你說G7就是歐洲啦其他的國家可以幫我們講話現在顯然美國都已經跟他交惡的情況之下我們要怎麼樣自保這個外交部要先想清楚而且你的沙盤推演裡面這個應該要列入重點項目因為我們已經沒有靠山了\n678786\t680708\t所以這樣有可能我們很多的資產還有我們台商還有我們原來在那裡多年所做的努力其實都有可能會化為烏有這個部分外交部是應該要提前應應的你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分好不好\n693817\t702307\t好我會都親自主持那另外因為剛剛有提到震災的部分不好意思主席再跟您接一點點時間震災的捐款剛剛部長也提到任何的捐款都應該要嚴格的監督因為這個都是大家\n712097\t716160\t捐出來而且都是救命錢所以非常的重要所以在這裡對於緬甸政災的捐款或者每一筆他一分一毫其實都牽涉到大家的愛心那過去我們在對於烏克蘭的一個提供的一些資助還有包括我們之前也提過在\n735803\t741288\t立法院也提到的就是有國內成立的商會民間自己成立的商會他們公開募款說要捐給敘利亞的這個善款還有之前我們用透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的這幾個部分我們請外交部提供現在進行的一個狀況不管你的查核或者我們後續的執行的結果\n758021\t761825\t比如說我們透過捷克的NGO的組織然後捐給烏克蘭的這個部分因為已經大概過快一年了吧這個進度到底怎麼樣執行的成果到底怎麼樣到底送了哪些物資也希望我們用一樣的嚴格的監督的態度來面對它好不好請提供資料書面資料謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長部長早委員早\n外交部其實在很多的互動上面應該主動一點應該是比較好啦過去跟現在好像有一點點不一樣部長剛剛有委員提到就是我們預算凍結的部分我們現在如果要提出解凍最大的困難在哪裡\n我想因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議最大的困難告訴我們最大的困難因為過去每年都有解凍的程序部長您也擔任過立法委員現在跟過去如果有不同現在最大的困難在哪裡如果現在要提出解凍的話\n就是有一些規定比如說業務要執行三成啊然後這個因為洞協一半然後因為立法院會期也可能五月底那這個時間的壓縮在五月底之前像現在都可以提出來過去其實就三成的那個規定我們有一些業務是還不符合可以提出解凍的標準三成的規定到現在我們一年12個月現在已經快要五月了如果再一個月大概就六個月就半年了\n我們到現在如果連30%都還執行不了第一可能我們的執行力有問題第二我們的預算幅編太多所以它足以硬硬所以你到現在連30%都還沒用到因為它的標準就很簡單它就是30%你就可以提出解凍如果這樣都還做不到我能想到的大概就這兩個理由因為你還沒送出來因為有些國際合作案你一簽下去之後\n她沒有辦法分階段來執行Yes No 那個就是1跟0的問題我想您很清楚我說您擔任過立法委員所謂的30%一定是你一般的常態業務如果你提出來如果這個被\n在野黨或者甚至執政黨有意見的話立法院有意見的話其實都可以再做說明可是連提都還沒有提這三十八答不到我就剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的你在國際合作國際合作你也可以進行到百分之三十啊不管你是哪一部分\n所謂的不確定性是你在執行完成以後才會有不確定性可是你在計劃的當下當你在要這個預算的時候你沒有告訴我們立法院說這個有不確定性我們甚至可以不要編是這樣嗎如果30%都還沒有達到我們現在已經過了快要已經五月了這個部分請我們外交部自己本身去做完檢討以後為什麼不能夠提出來如果30%都還辦不到那是執行不利\n這是要跟外交部提醒的不要把它再推到在野黨上面那另外今天部長也有提到我們現在根據外交部的消息南非政府已經在要求\n台灣駐南非的代表處在三月底之前要遷離首都並且將住處甚至降級而且更名這個部分我們直接被台北我們本來是台北聯絡代表處現在直接被改名成為台北商務辦事處這個部分部長在說明的時候有提到說我們目前還是運作正常我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常\n因為我們甚至在被降級的部分他本來是準大使的這樣的一個地位那你現在變成這樣子我們對等措施是什麼我們也看不到\n因為除了牽管或降級或涉及到一些名稱我們都一一有在就是說除了我們拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外也在協商中那你剛剛委員講的其實他雖然有那樣子說但實質上我們目前還是按照原來來運作除了沒有牽管以外就是有一些\n外交上面的互動並不是如他們自己先前有些宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情那這代表有空間所以有空間我們據理力爭也希望說能夠讓他知道利弊得失啦\n他國內外現在的壓力也很大那他也應該會開始去考慮啊如果單方的行為可能會引致的後果部長我們現在已經被直接改名了他要求我們簽我們還沒簽沒有錯可是我們已經被改名那你從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處我說其實他在等級上面已經差了一大截準大使變成我們一個只是一個貿易的一個代表處那另外\n目前實質上還是維持原來的關係那我們以前什麼名稱都不重要為什麼我們在國際上面會想要那種所以如果我們要讓全體人民有共識你應該很清楚的讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的然後是我們要持續的力爭而不是告訴我們運作正常可是我們看到的它是不正常\n因為他直接把我們歸類我們現在已經四五月了他已經把我們改掉了嘛你一點辦法都沒有我們說要對等的措施也看不到他直接把我們降級以外而且他把我們歸類成國際組織\n他把我們歸類成國際組織我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有可是我們被改變了那這個部分我想要請教的是因為就這個問題的延伸我們目前還看不到不過我們請\n外交部可以提供相關的書面資料我們要怎麼樣去因應因為我們看到的部長剛剛也提到說像南非的住管是我們的資產那我們過去有許多的前例都是管處直接就被沒收而且還移交給中國\n使用我們看到很多的案例像巴拿馬那時候我們在住巴拿馬的那個使館我們大概有2200萬美元這已經大概台幣7億多了可是在當時直接就移交給中國\n那另外還有多米尼加斷交的時候我們的很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產像薩爾瓦多我們赤字3000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管然後做其他的公共用途還有非洲的案例有聖多美\n普林西比這個也是我們有很多的國會大廈啊或者他們原住的總統府等等其實那時候大概也都被他們要求我們台方人員都必須要撤離管社還有布吉納法所還有像\n所羅門群島還有吉里巴斯等等我念到的這些其實我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭一定會爭取可是我們從頭到現在看起來只要被拿走的我們就拿不回來了而且好像也沒有發生的機會\n也沒有特別的管道那像南非這個也是因為他已經逐步逐步從去年十月到現在又說三月那現在沒有明確的日期可是他已經直接就這樣做了對我們都是在國格上面一個很大的損害而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響甚至我們未來像這樣的一個管產或者像我們台商的這些利益他怎麼辦管產的部分部長您怎麼看\n因為他並沒有辦法就是如期的迫使我們簽管現在我們還在使用中那我們也會具體力爭那會窮盡一些方法那他也感受到壓力來自於內外的所以這個時候有空間我們繼續協商我們要捍衛我們的館產\n因為我們也找了律師做了研究他們也找了有律師跟這個有關的所以我想這個大家研究完就會知道就是財產的所屬第一個財產的所屬我剛剛念了一堆所有的國家其實只要跟我們斷交以後他幾乎我們都拿不回來所以我們在還可以因應的時候你要怎麼樣確保這是一個方向因為另外一個\n部分就是紐時的報導就是說川普他原理要簽行政命令要大幅改組國務院而且要砍非洲行動跟關閉當地大使館還有領事館\n那我們在這個部分因為我們說對於南非的談判我們是找美國日本甚至還有G7的國家幫我們發聲然後幫我們說話可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方甚至有點是驕傲因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展\n可是像這樣子的一個狀況美國現在突然有這樣子的一個做法這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎剛剛部長說我們所有的狀況你都有做沙盤推演這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎有 因為當然美國的政府\n因為國務卿Rubio也剛剛有表示並沒有說先前傳的那樣但是就算是有什麼樣變化我們台灣在非洲的外交關係就是我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交然後我們另外有五個代表處持續會發展那再來就是跟南非他自己現在面對到的就是美國把他的駐美大使趕走\n驅除出境 列為不受歡迎人物阿哥啊 就是說非洲這個所謂成長的機會法案是關係著包括南非所以他們為南非內部有很多的討論要不要屈從中國因為南非嘗到他的外交自主嘛還是說應該跟台灣之間的關係應該要修好\n對因為你剛剛提的是美國我說美國現在有一個這樣的做法那美國會怎麼做那是美國一個大國他有辦法去跟南非或者整個歐洲抗衡我們現在沒有辦法我們自己的邦交國我們自己鞏固沒有錯可是像南非我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題我們不要再多做掩飾如果萬一因為\n原來還有美國可以幫我們講話或者其他的你說G7就是歐洲啦其他的國家可以幫我們講話現在顯然美國都已經跟他交惡的情況之下我們要怎麼樣自保這個外交部要先想清楚而且你的沙盤推演裡面這個應該要列入重點項目因為我們已經沒有靠山了\n所以這樣有可能我們很多的資產還有我們台商還有我們原來在那裡多年所做的努力其實都有可能會化為烏有這個部分外交部是應該要提前應應的你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分好不好\n好我會都親自主持那另外因為剛剛有提到震災的部分不好意思主席再跟您接一點點時間震災的捐款剛剛部長也提到任何的捐款都應該要嚴格的監督因為這個都是大家\n捐出來而且都是救命錢所以非常的重要所以在這裡對於緬甸政災的捐款或者每一筆他一分一毫其實都牽涉到大家的愛心那過去我們在對於烏克蘭的一個提供的一些資助還有包括我們之前也提過在\n立法院也提到的就是有國內成立的商會民間自己成立的商會他們公開募款說要捐給敘利亞的這個善款還有之前我們用透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的這幾個部分我們請外交部提供現在進行的一個狀況不管你的查核或者我們後續的執行的結果\n比如說我們透過捷克的NGO的組織然後捐給烏克蘭的這個部分因為已經大概過快一年了吧這個進度到底怎麼樣執行的成果到底怎麼樣到底送了哪些物資也希望我們用一樣的嚴格的監督的態度來面對它好不好請提供資料書面資料謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.972 --> 00:01.933\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長部長早委員早\n\n00:17.523 --> 00:33.586\n外交部其實在很多的互動上面應該主動一點應該是比較好啦過去跟現在好像有一點點不一樣部長剛剛有委員提到就是我們預算凍結的部分我們現在如果要提出解凍最大的困難在哪裡\n\n00:35.894 --> 00:54.001\n我想因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議最大的困難告訴我們最大的困難因為過去每年都有解凍的程序部長您也擔任過立法委員現在跟過去如果有不同現在最大的困難在哪裡如果現在要提出解凍的話\n\n00:54.801 --> 01:22.309\n就是有一些規定比如說業務要執行三成啊然後這個因為洞協一半然後因為立法院會期也可能五月底那這個時間的壓縮在五月底之前像現在都可以提出來過去其實就三成的那個規定我們有一些業務是還不符合可以提出解凍的標準三成的規定到現在我們一年12個月現在已經快要五月了如果再一個月大概就六個月就半年了\n\n01:23.189 --> 01:51.874\n我們到現在如果連30%都還執行不了第一可能我們的執行力有問題第二我們的預算幅編太多所以它足以硬硬所以你到現在連30%都還沒用到因為它的標準就很簡單它就是30%你就可以提出解凍如果這樣都還做不到我能想到的大概就這兩個理由因為你還沒送出來因為有些國際合作案你一簽下去之後\n\n01:53.154 --> 02:07.775\n她沒有辦法分階段來執行YesNo那個就是1跟0的問題我想您很清楚我說您擔任過立法委員所謂的30%一定是你一般的常態業務如果你提出來如果這個被\n\n02:08.716 --> 02:25.558\n在野黨或者甚至執政黨有意見的話立法院有意見的話其實都可以再做說明可是連提都還沒有提這三十八答不到我就剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的你在國際合作國際合作你也可以進行到百分之三十啊不管你是哪一部分\n\n02:27.000 --> 02:33.663\n所謂的不確定性是你在執行完成以後才會有不確定性可是你在計劃的當下當你在要這個預算的時候你沒有告訴我們立法院說這個有不確定性我們甚至可以不要編是這樣嗎如果30%都還沒有達到我們現在已經過了快要已經五月了這個部分請我們外交部自己本身去做完檢討以後為什麼不能夠提出來如果30%都還辦不到那是執行不利\n\n02:56.733 --> 03:00.158\n這是要跟外交部提醒的不要把它再推到在野黨上面那另外今天部長也有提到我們現在根據外交部的消息南非政府已經在要求\n\n03:11.995 --> 03:19.160\n台灣駐南非的代表處在三月底之前要遷離首都並且將住處甚至降級而且更名這個部分我們直接被台北我們本來是台北聯絡代表處現在直接被改名成為台北商務辦事處這個部分部長在說明的時候有提到說我們目前還是運作正常我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常\n\n03:40.174 --> 03:55.180\n因為我們甚至在被降級的部分他本來是準大使的這樣的一個地位那你現在變成這樣子我們對等措施是什麼我們也看不到\n\n03:56.960 --> 04:22.803\n因為除了牽管或降級或涉及到一些名稱我們都一一有在就是說除了我們拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外也在協商中那你剛剛委員講的其實他雖然有那樣子說但實質上我們目前還是按照原來來運作除了沒有牽管以外就是有一些\n\n04:23.784 --> 04:38.424\n外交上面的互動並不是如他們自己先前有些宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情那這代表有空間所以有空間我們據理力爭也希望說能夠讓他知道利弊得失啦\n\n04:38.905 --> 04:43.208\n他國內外現在的壓力也很大那他也應該會開始去考慮啊如果單方的行為可能會引致的後果部長我們現在已經被直接改名了他要求我們簽我們還沒簽沒有錯可是我們已經被改名那你從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處我說其實他在等級上面已經差了一大截準大使變成我們一個只是一個貿易的一個代表處那另外\n\n05:06.442 --> 05:13.725\n目前實質上還是維持原來的關係那我們以前什麼名稱都不重要為什麼我們在國際上面會想要那種所以如果我們要讓全體人民有共識你應該很清楚的讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的然後是我們要持續的力爭而不是告訴我們運作正常可是我們看到的它是不正常\n\n05:33.672 --> 05:35.933\n因為他直接把我們歸類我們現在已經四五月了他已經把我們改掉了嘛你一點辦法都沒有我們說要對等的措施也看不到他直接把我們降級以外而且他把我們歸類成國際組織\n\n05:51.360 --> 05:53.583\n他把我們歸類成國際組織我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有可是我們被改變了那這個部分我想要請教的是因為就這個問題的延伸我們目前還看不到不過我們請\n\n06:08.980 --> 06:24.512\n外交部可以提供相關的書面資料我們要怎麼樣去因應因為我們看到的部長剛剛也提到說像南非的住管是我們的資產那我們過去有許多的前例都是管處直接就被沒收而且還移交給中國\n\n06:26.433 --> 06:42.665\n使用我們看到很多的案例像巴拿馬那時候我們在住巴拿馬的那個使館我們大概有2200萬美元這已經大概台幣7億多了可是在當時直接就移交給中國\n\n06:43.906 --> 07:00.561\n那另外還有多米尼加斷交的時候我們的很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產像薩爾瓦多我們赤字3000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管然後做其他的公共用途還有非洲的案例有聖多美\n\n07:07.588 --> 07:21.835\n普林西比這個也是我們有很多的國會大廈啊或者他們原住的總統府等等其實那時候大概也都被他們要求我們台方人員都必須要撤離管社還有布吉納法所還有像\n\n07:23.235 --> 07:35.104\n所羅門群島還有吉里巴斯等等我念到的這些其實我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭一定會爭取可是我們從頭到現在看起來只要被拿走的我們就拿不回來了而且好像也沒有發生的機會\n\n07:41.289 --> 07:54.820\n也沒有特別的管道那像南非這個也是因為他已經逐步逐步從去年十月到現在又說三月那現在沒有明確的日期可是他已經直接就這樣做了對我們都是在國格上面一個很大的損害而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響甚至我們未來像這樣的一個管產或者像我們台商的這些利益他怎麼辦管產的部分部長您怎麼看\n\n08:10.168 --> 08:25.237\n因為他並沒有辦法就是如期的迫使我們簽管現在我們還在使用中那我們也會具體力爭那會窮盡一些方法那他也感受到壓力來自於內外的所以這個時候有空間我們繼續協商我們要捍衛我們的館產\n\n08:28.579 --> 08:50.349\n因為我們也找了律師做了研究他們也找了有律師跟這個有關的所以我想這個大家研究完就會知道就是財產的所屬第一個財產的所屬我剛剛念了一堆所有的國家其實只要跟我們斷交以後他幾乎我們都拿不回來所以我們在還可以因應的時候你要怎麼樣確保這是一個方向因為另外一個\n\n08:55.091 --> 08:57.834\n部分就是紐時的報導就是說川普他原理要簽行政命令要大幅改組國務院而且要砍非洲行動跟關閉當地大使館還有領事館\n\n09:10.606 --> 09:14.130\n那我們在這個部分因為我們說對於南非的談判我們是找美國日本甚至還有G7的國家幫我們發聲然後幫我們說話可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方甚至有點是驕傲因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展\n\n09:32.068 --> 09:47.233\n可是像這樣子的一個狀況美國現在突然有這樣子的一個做法這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎剛剛部長說我們所有的狀況你都有做沙盤推演這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎有因為當然美國的政府\n\n09:47.853 --> 10:12.510\n因為國務卿Rubio也剛剛有表示並沒有說先前傳的那樣但是就算是有什麼樣變化我們台灣在非洲的外交關係就是我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交然後我們另外有五個代表處持續會發展那再來就是跟南非他自己現在面對到的就是美國把他的駐美大使趕走\n\n10:13.751 --> 10:30.002\n驅除出境列為不受歡迎人物阿哥啊就是說非洲這個所謂成長的機會法案是關係著包括南非所以他們為南非內部有很多的討論要不要屈從中國因為南非嘗到他的外交自主嘛還是說應該跟台灣之間的關係應該要修好\n\n10:35.546 --> 10:39.147\n對因為你剛剛提的是美國我說美國現在有一個這樣的做法那美國會怎麼做那是美國一個大國他有辦法去跟南非或者整個歐洲抗衡我們現在沒有辦法我們自己的邦交國我們自己鞏固沒有錯可是像南非我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題我們不要再多做掩飾如果萬一因為\n\n10:57.895 --> 10:59.956\n原來還有美國可以幫我們講話或者其他的你說G7就是歐洲啦其他的國家可以幫我們講話現在顯然美國都已經跟他交惡的情況之下我們要怎麼樣自保這個外交部要先想清楚而且你的沙盤推演裡面這個應該要列入重點項目因為我們已經沒有靠山了\n\n11:18.786 --> 11:20.708\n所以這樣有可能我們很多的資產還有我們台商還有我們原來在那裡多年所做的努力其實都有可能會化為烏有這個部分外交部是應該要提前應應的你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分好不好\n\n11:33.817 --> 11:42.307\n好我會都親自主持那另外因為剛剛有提到震災的部分不好意思主席再跟您接一點點時間震災的捐款剛剛部長也提到任何的捐款都應該要嚴格的監督因為這個都是大家\n\n11:52.097 --> 11:56.160\n捐出來而且都是救命錢所以非常的重要所以在這裡對於緬甸政災的捐款或者每一筆他一分一毫其實都牽涉到大家的愛心那過去我們在對於烏克蘭的一個提供的一些資助還有包括我們之前也提過在\n\n12:15.803 --> 12:21.288\n立法院也提到的就是有國內成立的商會民間自己成立的商會他們公開募款說要捐給敘利亞的這個善款還有之前我們用透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的這幾個部分我們請外交部提供現在進行的一個狀況不管你的查核或者我們後續的執行的結果\n\n12:38.021 --> 12:41.825\n比如說我們透過捷克的NGO的組織然後捐給烏克蘭的這個部分因為已經大概過快一年了吧這個進度到底怎麼樣執行的成果到底怎麼樣到底送了哪些物資也希望我們用一樣的嚴格的監督的態度來面對它好不好請提供資料書面資料謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.972,"end":1.933,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長部長早委員早"},{"start":17.523,"end":33.586,"text":"外交部其實在很多的互動上面應該主動一點應該是比較好啦過去跟現在好像有一點點不一樣部長剛剛有委員提到就是我們預算凍結的部分我們現在如果要提出解凍最大的困難在哪裡"},{"start":35.894,"end":54.001,"text":"我想因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議最大的困難告訴我們最大的困難因為過去每年都有解凍的程序部長您也擔任過立法委員現在跟過去如果有不同現在最大的困難在哪裡如果現在要提出解凍的話"},{"start":54.801,"end":82.309,"text":"就是有一些規定比如說業務要執行三成啊然後這個因為洞協一半然後因為立法院會期也可能五月底那這個時間的壓縮在五月底之前像現在都可以提出來過去其實就三成的那個規定我們有一些業務是還不符合可以提出解凍的標準三成的規定到現在我們一年12個月現在已經快要五月了如果再一個月大概就六個月就半年了"},{"start":83.189,"end":111.874,"text":"我們到現在如果連30%都還執行不了第一可能我們的執行力有問題第二我們的預算幅編太多所以它足以硬硬所以你到現在連30%都還沒用到因為它的標準就很簡單它就是30%你就可以提出解凍如果這樣都還做不到我能想到的大概就這兩個理由因為你還沒送出來因為有些國際合作案你一簽下去之後"},{"start":113.154,"end":127.775,"text":"她沒有辦法分階段來執行Yes No 那個就是1跟0的問題我想您很清楚我說您擔任過立法委員所謂的30%一定是你一般的常態業務如果你提出來如果這個被"},{"start":128.716,"end":145.558,"text":"在野黨或者甚至執政黨有意見的話立法院有意見的話其實都可以再做說明可是連提都還沒有提這三十八答不到我就剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的你在國際合作國際合作你也可以進行到百分之三十啊不管你是哪一部分"},{"start":147,"end":153.663,"text":"所謂的不確定性是你在執行完成以後才會有不確定性可是你在計劃的當下當你在要這個預算的時候你沒有告訴我們立法院說這個有不確定性我們甚至可以不要編是這樣嗎如果30%都還沒有達到我們現在已經過了快要已經五月了這個部分請我們外交部自己本身去做完檢討以後為什麼不能夠提出來如果30%都還辦不到那是執行不利"},{"start":176.733,"end":180.158,"text":"這是要跟外交部提醒的不要把它再推到在野黨上面那另外今天部長也有提到我們現在根據外交部的消息南非政府已經在要求"},{"start":191.995,"end":199.16,"text":"台灣駐南非的代表處在三月底之前要遷離首都並且將住處甚至降級而且更名這個部分我們直接被台北我們本來是台北聯絡代表處現在直接被改名成為台北商務辦事處這個部分部長在說明的時候有提到說我們目前還是運作正常我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常"},{"start":220.174,"end":235.18,"text":"因為我們甚至在被降級的部分他本來是準大使的這樣的一個地位那你現在變成這樣子我們對等措施是什麼我們也看不到"},{"start":236.96,"end":262.803,"text":"因為除了牽管或降級或涉及到一些名稱我們都一一有在就是說除了我們拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外也在協商中那你剛剛委員講的其實他雖然有那樣子說但實質上我們目前還是按照原來來運作除了沒有牽管以外就是有一些"},{"start":263.784,"end":278.424,"text":"外交上面的互動並不是如他們自己先前有些宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情那這代表有空間所以有空間我們據理力爭也希望說能夠讓他知道利弊得失啦"},{"start":278.905,"end":283.208,"text":"他國內外現在的壓力也很大那他也應該會開始去考慮啊如果單方的行為可能會引致的後果部長我們現在已經被直接改名了他要求我們簽我們還沒簽沒有錯可是我們已經被改名那你從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處我說其實他在等級上面已經差了一大截準大使變成我們一個只是一個貿易的一個代表處那另外"},{"start":306.442,"end":313.725,"text":"目前實質上還是維持原來的關係那我們以前什麼名稱都不重要為什麼我們在國際上面會想要那種所以如果我們要讓全體人民有共識你應該很清楚的讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的然後是我們要持續的力爭而不是告訴我們運作正常可是我們看到的它是不正常"},{"start":333.672,"end":335.933,"text":"因為他直接把我們歸類我們現在已經四五月了他已經把我們改掉了嘛你一點辦法都沒有我們說要對等的措施也看不到他直接把我們降級以外而且他把我們歸類成國際組織"},{"start":351.36,"end":353.583,"text":"他把我們歸類成國際組織我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有可是我們被改變了那這個部分我想要請教的是因為就這個問題的延伸我們目前還看不到不過我們請"},{"start":368.98,"end":384.512,"text":"外交部可以提供相關的書面資料我們要怎麼樣去因應因為我們看到的部長剛剛也提到說像南非的住管是我們的資產那我們過去有許多的前例都是管處直接就被沒收而且還移交給中國"},{"start":386.433,"end":402.665,"text":"使用我們看到很多的案例像巴拿馬那時候我們在住巴拿馬的那個使館我們大概有2200萬美元這已經大概台幣7億多了可是在當時直接就移交給中國"},{"start":403.906,"end":420.561,"text":"那另外還有多米尼加斷交的時候我們的很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產像薩爾瓦多我們赤字3000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管然後做其他的公共用途還有非洲的案例有聖多美"},{"start":427.588,"end":441.835,"text":"普林西比這個也是我們有很多的國會大廈啊或者他們原住的總統府等等其實那時候大概也都被他們要求我們台方人員都必須要撤離管社還有布吉納法所還有像"},{"start":443.235,"end":455.104,"text":"所羅門群島還有吉里巴斯等等我念到的這些其實我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭一定會爭取可是我們從頭到現在看起來只要被拿走的我們就拿不回來了而且好像也沒有發生的機會"},{"start":461.289,"end":474.82,"text":"也沒有特別的管道那像南非這個也是因為他已經逐步逐步從去年十月到現在又說三月那現在沒有明確的日期可是他已經直接就這樣做了對我們都是在國格上面一個很大的損害而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響甚至我們未來像這樣的一個管產或者像我們台商的這些利益他怎麼辦管產的部分部長您怎麼看"},{"start":490.168,"end":505.237,"text":"因為他並沒有辦法就是如期的迫使我們簽管現在我們還在使用中那我們也會具體力爭那會窮盡一些方法那他也感受到壓力來自於內外的所以這個時候有空間我們繼續協商我們要捍衛我們的館產"},{"start":508.579,"end":530.349,"text":"因為我們也找了律師做了研究他們也找了有律師跟這個有關的所以我想這個大家研究完就會知道就是財產的所屬第一個財產的所屬我剛剛念了一堆所有的國家其實只要跟我們斷交以後他幾乎我們都拿不回來所以我們在還可以因應的時候你要怎麼樣確保這是一個方向因為另外一個"},{"start":535.091,"end":537.834,"text":"部分就是紐時的報導就是說川普他原理要簽行政命令要大幅改組國務院而且要砍非洲行動跟關閉當地大使館還有領事館"},{"start":550.606,"end":554.13,"text":"那我們在這個部分因為我們說對於南非的談判我們是找美國日本甚至還有G7的國家幫我們發聲然後幫我們說話可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方甚至有點是驕傲因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展"},{"start":572.068,"end":587.233,"text":"可是像這樣子的一個狀況美國現在突然有這樣子的一個做法這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎剛剛部長說我們所有的狀況你都有做沙盤推演這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎有 因為當然美國的政府"},{"start":587.853,"end":612.51,"text":"因為國務卿Rubio也剛剛有表示並沒有說先前傳的那樣但是就算是有什麼樣變化我們台灣在非洲的外交關係就是我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交然後我們另外有五個代表處持續會發展那再來就是跟南非他自己現在面對到的就是美國把他的駐美大使趕走"},{"start":613.751,"end":630.002,"text":"驅除出境 列為不受歡迎人物阿哥啊 就是說非洲這個所謂成長的機會法案是關係著包括南非所以他們為南非內部有很多的討論要不要屈從中國因為南非嘗到他的外交自主嘛還是說應該跟台灣之間的關係應該要修好"},{"start":635.546,"end":639.147,"text":"對因為你剛剛提的是美國我說美國現在有一個這樣的做法那美國會怎麼做那是美國一個大國他有辦法去跟南非或者整個歐洲抗衡我們現在沒有辦法我們自己的邦交國我們自己鞏固沒有錯可是像南非我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題我們不要再多做掩飾如果萬一因為"},{"start":657.895,"end":659.956,"text":"原來還有美國可以幫我們講話或者其他的你說G7就是歐洲啦其他的國家可以幫我們講話現在顯然美國都已經跟他交惡的情況之下我們要怎麼樣自保這個外交部要先想清楚而且你的沙盤推演裡面這個應該要列入重點項目因為我們已經沒有靠山了"},{"start":678.786,"end":680.708,"text":"所以這樣有可能我們很多的資產還有我們台商還有我們原來在那裡多年所做的努力其實都有可能會化為烏有這個部分外交部是應該要提前應應的你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分好不好"},{"start":693.817,"end":702.307,"text":"好我會都親自主持那另外因為剛剛有提到震災的部分不好意思主席再跟您接一點點時間震災的捐款剛剛部長也提到任何的捐款都應該要嚴格的監督因為這個都是大家"},{"start":712.097,"end":716.16,"text":"捐出來而且都是救命錢所以非常的重要所以在這裡對於緬甸政災的捐款或者每一筆他一分一毫其實都牽涉到大家的愛心那過去我們在對於烏克蘭的一個提供的一些資助還有包括我們之前也提過在"},{"start":735.803,"end":741.288,"text":"立法院也提到的就是有國內成立的商會民間自己成立的商會他們公開募款說要捐給敘利亞的這個善款還有之前我們用透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的這幾個部分我們請外交部提供現在進行的一個狀況不管你的查核或者我們後續的執行的結果"},{"start":758.021,"end":761.825,"text":"比如說我們透過捷克的NGO的組織然後捐給烏克蘭的這個部分因為已經大概過快一年了吧這個進度到底怎麼樣執行的成果到底怎麼樣到底送了哪些物資也希望我們用一樣的嚴格的監督的態度來面對它好不好請提供資料書面資料謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":302,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時43分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：外交部在很多的互動上面應該主動一點會比較好，過去跟現在好像有一點點不一樣，剛剛有委員提到預算凍結的部分，現在如果要提出解凍，最大的困難在哪裡？"],["林部長佳龍：因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議……"],["馬委員文君：最大的困難在哪裡？請告訴我們最大的困難。因為過去每年都有解凍的程序，部長，您也擔任過立法委員，現在跟過去如果有不同，請問現在最大的困難在哪裡？如果現在要提出解凍的話。"],["林部長佳龍：就是有一些規定，比如說業務要執行三成，然後因為凍結一半，而立法院會期可能到5月底就結束，時間的壓縮……"],["馬委員文君：為什麼不在5月底之前，像現在都可以提出來啊！過去也都是這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：因為就三成的規定，我們有一些業務還不符合可以提出解凍的標準。"],["馬委員文君：關於三成的規定，一年12個月，現在已經快要5月了，再一個月就6個月，大概就半年了，如果到現在連30%都還執行不了，第一，可能執行力有問題；第二就是預算浮編太多，所以足以因應，也因此你到現在連30%都還沒用到。其實它的標準很簡單，只要執行30%就可以提出解凍，如果這樣都還做不到，我能想到的大概就這兩個理由，因為你還沒送出來，你也不知道……"],["林部長佳龍：因為有些國際合作案一簽下去之後，它沒有辦法分階段來執行，只有Yes或No，那就是1跟0的問題。"],["馬委員文君：我所謂的30%絕對不會是這個部分。部長，我想您很清楚，因為您也曾擔任過立法委員，所謂的30%一定是針對一般的常態業務，如果你提出來，而立法院的在野黨或執政黨有意見的話，其實都可以再作說明，可是現在連提都還沒有提，這30%達不到，我剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的。你剛才說到國際合作，國際合作也可以進行到30%啊！不管你是哪一部分……"],["林部長佳龍：後面的不確定性……"],["馬委員文君：所謂的不確定性，是在執行完成以後才會有不確定性。可是在計畫的當下，當你在要這筆預算的時候，你並沒有告訴立法院說這個有不確定性，我們甚至可以不要編，是這樣嗎？如果30%都還沒有達到，而現在都已經快要5月了，這個部分請外交部自己去檢討，為什麼不能夠提出來？如果30%都還辦不到，那是執行不力。這一點是本席要跟外交部提醒的，不要再把它推到在野黨上面。","另外，今天部長也有提到根據外交部的消息，南非政府已經再度要求臺灣駐南非代表處在3月底之前要遷離首都，並且將駐處降級，而且更名，我們本來是臺北聯絡代表處，現在直接被改名成為臺北商務辦事處。針對這個部分，部長在說明的時候有提到目前還是運作正常，我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常？在被降級的部分，它本來是準大使館的地位，現在變成這樣子，我們的對等措施是什麼也看不到。"],["林部長佳龍：關於遷館、降級或涉及到一些名稱，我們都一一在處理，除了拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外，也在協商中……"],["馬委員文君：可是它已經做了。"],["林部長佳龍：以剛剛委員講的，它雖然有那樣子說，但實質上我們目前還是按照原來的方式在運作，除了沒有遷館以外，其實有一些外交上面的互動，並不是如他們自己先前所宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情，這就代表有空間，有空間我們就據理力爭，也希望能夠讓它知道利弊得失，它國內外現在的壓力也很大，它也應該會開始去考慮單方的行為可能會引致的後果。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們現在已經被直接改名了，它要求我們遷，我們還沒遷沒有錯，可是我們已經被改名，從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處，其實在等級上面已經差了一大截，從準大使館變成只是一個貿易代表處。另外，我們甚至被它……"],["林部長佳龍：目前實質上還是維持原來的關係。"],["馬委員文君：如果以前什麼名稱不重要，為什麼我們在國際上面會想要……"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然持續在抗議、協商。"],["馬委員文君：如果要讓全體人民有共識，你應該很清楚地讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的，我們要持續的力爭，而不是告訴我們運作正常，可是我們看到的是不正常，因為它直接把我們歸類……"],["林部長佳龍：3月底的底線現在也無限期延長了……"],["馬委員文君：現在已經快要5月了，他已經把我們的名稱改掉了嘛！你一點辦法都沒有，我們說要對等的措施也看不到，除了直接把我們降級以外，而且它把我們歸類成國際組織，我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼，因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有，可是我們被改變了。針對這個部分我想要請教的是，就這個問題的延伸目前還看不到，不過請外交部可以提供相關的書面資料，說明我們要怎麼樣去因應。","剛才部長也提到像南非的駐館是我們的資產，過去有許多前例都是館處直接就被沒收，而且還移交給中國使用。我們看到很多的案例，像巴拿馬，那時候我們駐巴拿馬的使館大概價值2,200萬美元、臺幣七億多，可是當時就直接移交給中國；另外還有多明尼加，斷交的時候，我們很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產；像薩爾瓦多，我們斥資3,000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管，做其他的公共用途；非洲的案例有聖多美普林西比，我們有很多的國會大廈或原住的總統府等等，那時候也都被他們要求臺方人員都必須要撤離館舍；還有布吉納法索、索羅門群島、吉里巴斯等等。以上我唸到的這些，我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭、一定會爭取，可是從以前到現在，看起來只要被拿走的，我們就拿不回來了，而且好像也沒有發聲的機會，也沒有特別的管道。","像南非也是，因為它已經逐步、逐步地，從去年10月到現在又說3月，現在沒有明確的日期，可是它已經直接就這樣做了，對我們的國格上面都是很大的損害，而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響，甚至我們未來像這樣的館產或者臺商的利益要怎麼辦？館產的部分，部長，你怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：因為它並沒有辦法如期地迫使我們遷館，現在我們還在使用中，我們也會據理力爭、窮盡一切方法，它也感受到來自於內、外的壓力，所以這個時候有空間，我們繼續協商。我們一定捍衛我們的館產，我們也找了律師、做了研究，他們也找了律師跟有關的……所以我想大家研究完就會知道財產的所屬。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們務實地面對，第一個，有關財產的所屬，我剛剛唸了一堆的國家，其實只要跟我們斷交以後，我們幾乎都拿不回來，所以我們在還可以因應的時候要怎麼樣確保，這是一個方向。另外一個部分就是紐時報導川普研擬要簽行政命令，大幅改組國務院，而且要砍非洲行動，並關閉當地大使館及領事館。對於南非的談判，我們說是找美國、日本、甚至G7的國家幫我們發聲、幫我們說話，可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方，甚至有點交惡，因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展。像這樣子的狀況，美國現在突然有這樣的做法，這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎？剛剛部長說所有的狀況你都有做沙盤推演，這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有。當然，美國政府的國務卿Rubio有表示並沒有先前傳的那樣，但是就算是有什麼樣的變化，我們臺灣在非洲的外交關係，比如我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交，我們另外有5個代表處持續會發展，再來就是跟南非。南非現在面對到的就是美國把它的駐美大使趕走、驅逐出境、列為不受歡迎人物，然後AGOA（非洲成長與機會法案）是關係著南非，所以南非內部有很多的討論，包括要不要屈從中國，因為南非強調外交自主，還是跟臺灣之間的關係應該要修好。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你剛剛提的是美國，我說美國現在有這樣的做法，美國會怎麼做？美國是一個大國，有辦法跟南非或整個歐洲抗衡，我們現在沒有辦法，我們自己的邦交國自己鞏固沒有錯，可是像南非，我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題，我們不要再多作掩飾，因為原來還有美國可以幫我們講話，或者其他的G7、歐洲等等國家可以幫我們講話，現在顯然美國都已經跟它交惡的情況之下，我們要怎麼樣自保？外交部要先想清楚。而且在你的沙盤推演裡面，這個應該要列入重點項目，因為我們已經沒有靠山了，我們有很多的資產、臺商、原來在那裡多年來所做的努力，其實都有可能會化為烏有，就這個部分外交部應該要提前因應，你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我會都親自主持這些沙盤推演。"],["馬委員文君：好。另外，剛剛也有提到賑災的部分。不好意思，主席，再跟您借一點點時間。關於賑災的捐款，剛剛部長也提到，任何捐款都應該要嚴格地監督，因為這些都是大家捐出來的，而且都是救命錢，所以非常地重要。緬甸賑災捐款的每一筆、一分一毫都牽涉到大家的愛心，包括過去我們對於烏克蘭提供的資助，還有我們立法院之前也提到，國內民間自己成立的商會公開募款要捐給敘利亞的善款，以及之前我們透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的部分，請外交部提供現在進行的狀況，不管是你們的查核或者後續執行的結果，比如我們透過捷克NGO的組織捐給烏克蘭的部分，現在過了大概快一年了，這個進度到底怎麼樣？執行的成果到底怎麼樣？到底送了哪些物資？也希望我們用一樣嚴格監督的態度來面對，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：請提供書面資料，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員上臺質詢。","接下來由徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}}