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00:01:33,658\n这个行政区划法的草案它关乎的刚刚前面很多委员都有讲到不管是我们这个整个的治理效能生活圈的整合甚至民主的原则各方面它凸显了很多问题所以我们才会觉得说这个草案不能再躺在那我们必须好好的来讨论当然本席也听到部长您刚刚回答很多委员你都\n\n4\n00:01:34,278 --> 00:02:00,713\n等於說你很有經驗不管擔任民意代表或是擔任這個行政首長你覺得這個法案要討論會有很多的很繁雜的甚至也很多的困難很多的阻礙但是本席在這裡要先講的就是說難勝能勝所以才難能可貴我們的這個中央單位我們不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭應該多做一些解決民眾的問題\n\n5\n00:02:03,234 --> 00:02:28,339\n所以今天的讨论包括等一下本席提到的点也许有些会跟新竹有关但是我觉得我都不预设立场我也不为了不管是自己或是我们纯粹新竹县的利益而是要站在民众的需求还有这个时代的变迁它应该要能够来因应所以部长您认同吧这样的立场\n\n6\n00:02:29,279 --> 00:02:54,781\n徐委員所提的我很多都認同只有一件事情就是我們沒有搞鬥爭我們都是依法來行政尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法它是涉及到跨政黨跟跨縣市的我們感受就是說中央多做一些真正治理還有對民眾好的少搞一些對立接著本席要來就教我們現在整個的行政區劃法\n\n7\n00:02:55,862 --> 00:03:24,267\n它常常是都不太能反映都市的人口的都市的發展跟人口的變遷所以產生了很多的問題等於是凸顯出我們行政區劃的這個要盡快來進行譬如我想剛剛王美惠委員也有提到我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來已經等於嘉義市人口已經有26萬加上嘉義縣\n\n8\n00:03:25,367 --> 00:03:41,632\n那这两个县市它分治那包含新竹县市也是一样新竹县现在人口已经60万新竹市46万加起来已经有100多万100万以上那现在像这种小县市\n\n9\n00:03:43,172 --> 00:04:10,812\n我們人民生活有很多的嫌惡設施包含像生命紀念園區像焚化爐大家都不是很想要但是如果這種生活圈或是區域的這種治理它可以整合的話那就不見得每個縣市它一定要有自己的可能像我們其實新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市\n\n10\n00:04:11,412 --> 00:04:30,277\n當然因為人口的一直的增加大概新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到應該也是會碰到就是說我們這個縣市所以站在這樣子您這個中央的立場是如何\n\n11\n00:04:32,719 --> 00:04:46,318\n報告委員那個其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的你沒有辦法容納所有的從國家發展到地方村里組織的部分所以我的意思就是說應該這樣講我們行政區劃你要去討論的時候\n\n12\n00:04:50,100 --> 00:05:09,372\n你一定會跟地方政府嘛跟所謂民意代表去溝通的時候那你的主力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題嘛所以您也一直的講我剛剛聽前面一些委員都說很困難很繁雜還有可能\n\n13\n00:05:10,192 --> 00:05:23,777\n有些人會同意有些人你說什麼大零價少然後多零價大零價小多零價少所以這個東西就是所以我本席的意思就是說我們應該是去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的\n\n14\n00:05:28,821 --> 00:05:45,928\n那我想您大概不是很懂我們的意思那接著我也譬如說像新竹縣市合併之前吵過你應該有印象那像這個就是新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期它其實在民國70幾年之前本來是合併的後來分開了\n\n15\n00:05:50,089 --> 00:06:12,792\n那現在分開以後各自發展得非常好然後又有這種合併的聲音但是本席要一直強調我沒有特定的立場但是新竹縣市你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在那很多的科學園區的工作的人口他是來自新竹縣市的所以新竹縣到新竹市有一個叫金國橋的\n\n16\n00:06:14,033 --> 00:06:39,206\n他這一條橋已經長期塞車20幾年了沒有解決因為縣市的分治縣市的分治沒有解決所以竹科的人可能正常時間不是上下班時間我可能騎車或開車20分鐘到上下班時間一個小時那如果再加上下雨一個半小時\n\n17\n00:06:40,616 --> 00:06:50,640\n這個就是一個很大的問題再來本席這個一個統計數字你看一下我們以這個稅收新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第五\n\n18\n00:06:55,483 --> 00:07:22,975\n贏過另外兩個六都六都的桃園市跟台南市但是我們得到新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第九就加起來它的得到的比例是第九那我這樣講不是凸顯說我要爭取什麼我們今天不管升格或不升格不能是利益考量但是你看我講的二十幾年的塞車情況\n\n19\n00:07:24,625 --> 00:07:48,430\n其實大家都現在現在每一個人都覺得這個我在這邊住30年20幾年永遠塞車我們中央也沒有協助你也知道一個交通的整個改善拓寬這不可能地方縣市政府可以這個跟這個我們整個的區域計畫是有關的那再來因為時間關係最後我要再提一點就是我們\n\n20\n00:07:49,744 --> 00:08:10,419\n整個的這個區域規劃尤其是升格它不是一種獎勵升格像這個你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例譬如我舉例像桃園市桃園市升格之後它的面積一樣人口數升格後升格前沒有差很多\n\n21\n00:08:11,019 --> 00:08:22,975\n但是因為他是直轄市所以變成他的公務人員新增了三千多人他的財政負擔也是一年人事費也增加了一百多億那實際上\n\n22\n00:08:25,188 --> 00:08:50,485\n这个服务的量能跟品质有没有比较好不知道但是可能未来如果要考虑这个的话包含嘉义县市新竹县市或其他县市你要合并的时候你一样这么大的面积人口数你合并之后它也不会急剧可是你如果合并之后你的这个人事费还有人事的这相关规定这个都要考量\n\n23\n00:08:51,225 --> 00:09:00,050\n您有聽懂本席表達的所以這些未來可能都是那我們今天因為主席排了這個案我們大家必須來正視必須來正視\n\n24\n00:09:03,618 --> 00:09:27,966\n所以這個很多縣市然後再還有一個彰化縣彰化縣在台中升格之後其實整個彰化縣的人口也整個有吸食效應也這樣離開所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年這個行政區區劃法草案到現在本來只有一個直轄市現在變六個可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡\n\n25\n00:09:28,726 --> 00:09:53,645\n那你這個職強式升格之後對旁邊的縣市它造成的影響跟效益這些我們都希望這個中央能夠來重視那現在既然如果要開啟本席是認為就是說是不是要不斷的溝通您一直說沒有共識沒有共識更要不斷的溝通討論更加努力的來凝聚共識那\n\n26\n00:09:54,145 --> 00:10:03,260\n如果能夠達成而且能夠對台灣我們各縣市的不管是生活區域治理各方面能夠更好我們希望\n\n27\n00:10:04,625 --> 00:10:33,233\n您这内政部长这边也许跟院长反映总统反映我们应该积极来做刚刚本席没提到就是北北极的这个大生活圈甚至大台北地区的这个交通各方面所以不是我们民众不希望只有到台风架才有所有区域治理的整合我们希望生活上各方面也都能够改善今天就是反映民意也希望部长部长你最后有没有什么要回应的\n\n28\n00:10:36,397 --> 00:11:01,448\n你們非常的關心也非常的了解狀況了您剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格升格是最重要不是只有合併但是就有人提到說那新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起這是一個那還有一個您剛提到中張投那彰化跟桃園中張投跟南投要不要跟台中一起那還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格但是旁邊的雲林跟\n\n29\n00:11:03,209 --> 00:11:20,094\n其他的縣市會不會就有不同的意見就是說這個是我們在考量當中啊就是跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實是很重要還有一個您提到零幣效應有這個焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常啊\n\n30\n00:11:20,914 --> 00:11:37,080\n大家都不希望那個化到自己的選區裡面那這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾所以為什麼到現在為止啊有些比較小的這個縣市啊他們的這個這個林碧效應應該有的這個焚化爐都沒有以我們在高雄的例子來講\n\n31\n00:11:38,410 --> 00:11:58,322\n我們遠從這個中部還有到東部都代收幫忙處理這個環境的廢棄物那其實是非常大的困擾甚至跨離島都有那為什麼因為就是跟區域治理也產生不同的困擾所以也是提供給委員做參考那我們當然會來努力這些我知道但這個跟每個行政首長他\n\n32\n00:11:59,082 --> 00:12:16,472\n要來做而且怎麼樣去突破這個都有關那剛剛你既然講到新竹縣市最後最後我想講一下當初新竹縣市的升格會為什麼會最後失敗而且被社會指責是因為當時只是一黨之私\n\n33\n00:12:16,772 --> 00:12:42,843\n因人涉事所以造成了一些问题所以我们希望行政区画要公开透明而且要长期规划我本席最后强调人民的利益公众的利益是唯一考量而且是最重要的考量希望部长我们接下来如果中央要来推动也不要因为很多困难都不沟通不凝聚不去讨论所以我们希望还是要进步谢谢谢谢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14822\t18084\t好 謝謝主席 本席有請部長 劉部長劉部長有請徐委員好部長好 今天我們這個召委非常的用心等於是我們這個所謂的行政區劃法已經是一部行政區劃法草案它已經是蒙城的一部草案\n44079\t63192\t您知道從什麼時候開始到現在嗎?從好像民國八十一年對 民國八十一年到現在但歷經藍綠都沒有人好像真正的很重視而且整個的來推動所以今天本席在開始質詢跟您討論之前我想我們這一個\n67150\t93658\t这个行政区划法的草案它关乎的刚刚前面很多委员都有讲到不管是我们这个整个的治理效能生活圈的整合甚至民主的原则各方面它凸显了很多问题所以我们才会觉得说这个草案不能再躺在那我们必须好好的来讨论当然本席也听到部长您刚刚回答很多委员你都\n94278\t120713\t等於說你很有經驗不管擔任民意代表或是擔任這個行政首長你覺得這個法案要討論會有很多的很繁雜的甚至也很多的困難很多的阻礙但是本席在這裡要先講的就是說難勝能勝所以才難能可貴我們的這個中央單位我們不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭應該多做一些解決民眾的問題\n123234\t148339\t所以今天的讨论包括等一下本席提到的点也许有些会跟新竹有关但是我觉得我都不预设立场我也不为了不管是自己或是我们纯粹新竹县的利益而是要站在民众的需求还有这个时代的变迁它应该要能够来因应所以部长您认同吧这样的立场\n149279\t174781\t徐委員所提的我很多都認同只有一件事情就是我們沒有搞鬥爭我們都是依法來行政尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法它是涉及到跨政黨跟跨縣市的我們感受就是說中央多做一些真正治理還有對民眾好的少搞一些對立接著本席要來就教我們現在整個的行政區劃法\n175862\t204267\t它常常是都不太能反映都市的人口的都市的發展跟人口的變遷所以產生了很多的問題等於是凸顯出我們行政區劃的這個要盡快來進行譬如我想剛剛王美惠委員也有提到我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來已經等於嘉義市人口已經有26萬加上嘉義縣\n205367\t221632\t那这两个县市它分治那包含新竹县市也是一样新竹县现在人口已经60万新竹市46万加起来已经有100多万100万以上那现在像这种小县市\n223172\t250812\t我們人民生活有很多的嫌惡設施包含像生命紀念園區像焚化爐大家都不是很想要但是如果這種生活圈或是區域的這種治理它可以整合的話那就不見得每個縣市它一定要有自己的可能像我們其實新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市\n251412\t270277\t當然因為人口的一直的增加大概新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到應該也是會碰到就是說我們這個縣市所以站在這樣子您這個中央的立場是如何\n272719\t286318\t報告委員那個其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的你沒有辦法容納所有的從國家發展到地方村里組織的部分所以我的意思就是說應該這樣講我們行政區劃你要去討論的時候\n290100\t309372\t你一定會跟地方政府嘛跟所謂民意代表去溝通的時候那你的主力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題嘛所以您也一直的講我剛剛聽前面一些委員都說很困難很繁雜還有可能\n310192\t323777\t有些人會同意有些人你說什麼大零價少然後多零價大零價小多零價少所以這個東西就是所以我本席的意思就是說我們應該是去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的\n328821\t345928\t那我想您大概不是很懂我們的意思那接著我也譬如說像新竹縣市合併之前吵過你應該有印象那像這個就是新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期它其實在民國70幾年之前本來是合併的後來分開了\n350089\t372792\t那現在分開以後各自發展得非常好然後又有這種合併的聲音但是本席要一直強調我沒有特定的立場但是新竹縣市你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在那很多的科學園區的工作的人口他是來自新竹縣市的所以新竹縣到新竹市有一個叫金國橋的\n374033\t399206\t他這一條橋已經長期塞車20幾年了沒有解決因為縣市的分治縣市的分治沒有解決所以竹科的人可能正常時間不是上下班時間我可能騎車或開車20分鐘到上下班時間一個小時那如果再加上下雨一個半小時\n400616\t410640\t這個就是一個很大的問題再來本席這個一個統計數字你看一下我們以這個稅收新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第五\n415483\t442975\t贏過另外兩個六都六都的桃園市跟台南市但是我們得到新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第九就加起來它的得到的比例是第九那我這樣講不是凸顯說我要爭取什麼我們今天不管升格或不升格不能是利益考量但是你看我講的二十幾年的塞車情況\n444625\t468430\t其實大家都現在現在每一個人都覺得這個我在這邊住30年20幾年永遠塞車我們中央也沒有協助你也知道一個交通的整個改善拓寬這不可能地方縣市政府可以這個跟這個我們整個的區域計畫是有關的那再來因為時間關係最後我要再提一點就是我們\n469744\t490419\t整個的這個區域規劃尤其是升格它不是一種獎勵升格像這個你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例譬如我舉例像桃園市桃園市升格之後它的面積一樣人口數升格後升格前沒有差很多\n491019\t502975\t但是因為他是直轄市所以變成他的公務人員新增了三千多人他的財政負擔也是一年人事費也增加了一百多億那實際上\n505188\t530485\t这个服务的量能跟品质有没有比较好不知道但是可能未来如果要考虑这个的话包含嘉义县市新竹县市或其他县市你要合并的时候你一样这么大的面积人口数你合并之后它也不会急剧可是你如果合并之后你的这个人事费还有人事的这相关规定这个都要考量\n531225\t540050\t您有聽懂本席表達的所以這些未來可能都是那我們今天因為主席排了這個案我們大家必須來正視必須來正視\n543618\t567966\t所以這個很多縣市然後再還有一個彰化縣彰化縣在台中升格之後其實整個彰化縣的人口也整個有吸食效應也這樣離開所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年這個行政區區劃法草案到現在本來只有一個直轄市現在變六個可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡\n568726\t593645\t那你這個職強式升格之後對旁邊的縣市它造成的影響跟效益這些我們都希望這個中央能夠來重視那現在既然如果要開啟本席是認為就是說是不是要不斷的溝通您一直說沒有共識沒有共識更要不斷的溝通討論更加努力的來凝聚共識那\n594145\t603260\t如果能夠達成而且能夠對台灣我們各縣市的不管是生活區域治理各方面能夠更好我們希望\n604625\t633233\t您这内政部长这边也许跟院长反映总统反映我们应该积极来做刚刚本席没提到就是北北极的这个大生活圈甚至大台北地区的这个交通各方面所以不是我们民众不希望只有到台风架才有所有区域治理的整合我们希望生活上各方面也都能够改善今天就是反映民意也希望部长部长你最后有没有什么要回应的\n636397\t661448\t你們非常的關心也非常的了解狀況了您剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格升格是最重要不是只有合併但是就有人提到說那新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起這是一個那還有一個您剛提到中張投那彰化跟桃園中張投跟南投要不要跟台中一起那還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格但是旁邊的雲林跟\n663209\t680094\t其他的縣市會不會就有不同的意見就是說這個是我們在考量當中啊就是跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實是很重要還有一個您提到零幣效應有這個焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常啊\n680914\t697080\t大家都不希望那個化到自己的選區裡面那這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾所以為什麼到現在為止啊有些比較小的這個縣市啊他們的這個這個林碧效應應該有的這個焚化爐都沒有以我們在高雄的例子來講\n698410\t718322\t我們遠從這個中部還有到東部都代收幫忙處理這個環境的廢棄物那其實是非常大的困擾甚至跨離島都有那為什麼因為就是跟區域治理也產生不同的困擾所以也是提供給委員做參考那我們當然會來努力 這些我知道但這個跟每個行政首長他\n719082\t736472\t要來做而且怎麼樣去突破這個都有關那剛剛你既然講到新竹縣市最後最後我想講一下當初新竹縣市的升格會為什麼會最後失敗而且被社會指責是因為當時只是一黨之私\n736772\t762843\t因人涉事所以造成了一些问题所以我们希望行政区画要公开透明而且要长期规划我本席最后强调人民的利益公众的利益是唯一考量而且是最重要的考量希望部长我们接下来如果中央要来推动也不要因为很多困难都不沟通不凝聚不去讨论所以我们希望还是要进步谢谢谢谢\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 本席有請部長 劉部長劉部長有請徐委員好部長好 今天我們這個召委非常的用心等於是我們這個所謂的行政區劃法已經是一部行政區劃法草案它已經是蒙城的一部草案\n您知道從什麼時候開始到現在嗎?從好像民國八十一年對 民國八十一年到現在但歷經藍綠都沒有人好像真正的很重視而且整個的來推動所以今天本席在開始質詢跟您討論之前我想我們這一個\n这个行政区划法的草案它关乎的刚刚前面很多委员都有讲到不管是我们这个整个的治理效能生活圈的整合甚至民主的原则各方面它凸显了很多问题所以我们才会觉得说这个草案不能再躺在那我们必须好好的来讨论当然本席也听到部长您刚刚回答很多委员你都\n等於說你很有經驗不管擔任民意代表或是擔任這個行政首長你覺得這個法案要討論會有很多的很繁雜的甚至也很多的困難很多的阻礙但是本席在這裡要先講的就是說難勝能勝所以才難能可貴我們的這個中央單位我們不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭應該多做一些解決民眾的問題\n所以今天的讨论包括等一下本席提到的点也许有些会跟新竹有关但是我觉得我都不预设立场我也不为了不管是自己或是我们纯粹新竹县的利益而是要站在民众的需求还有这个时代的变迁它应该要能够来因应所以部长您认同吧这样的立场\n徐委員所提的我很多都認同只有一件事情就是我們沒有搞鬥爭我們都是依法來行政尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法它是涉及到跨政黨跟跨縣市的我們感受就是說中央多做一些真正治理還有對民眾好的少搞一些對立接著本席要來就教我們現在整個的行政區劃法\n它常常是都不太能反映都市的人口的都市的發展跟人口的變遷所以產生了很多的問題等於是凸顯出我們行政區劃的這個要盡快來進行譬如我想剛剛王美惠委員也有提到我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來已經等於嘉義市人口已經有26萬加上嘉義縣\n那这两个县市它分治那包含新竹县市也是一样新竹县现在人口已经60万新竹市46万加起来已经有100多万100万以上那现在像这种小县市\n我們人民生活有很多的嫌惡設施包含像生命紀念園區像焚化爐大家都不是很想要但是如果這種生活圈或是區域的這種治理它可以整合的話那就不見得每個縣市它一定要有自己的可能像我們其實新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市\n當然因為人口的一直的增加大概新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到應該也是會碰到就是說我們這個縣市所以站在這樣子您這個中央的立場是如何\n報告委員那個其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的你沒有辦法容納所有的從國家發展到地方村里組織的部分所以我的意思就是說應該這樣講我們行政區劃你要去討論的時候\n你一定會跟地方政府嘛跟所謂民意代表去溝通的時候那你的主力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題嘛所以您也一直的講我剛剛聽前面一些委員都說很困難很繁雜還有可能\n有些人會同意有些人你說什麼大零價少然後多零價大零價小多零價少所以這個東西就是所以我本席的意思就是說我們應該是去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的\n那我想您大概不是很懂我們的意思那接著我也譬如說像新竹縣市合併之前吵過你應該有印象那像這個就是新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期它其實在民國70幾年之前本來是合併的後來分開了\n那現在分開以後各自發展得非常好然後又有這種合併的聲音但是本席要一直強調我沒有特定的立場但是新竹縣市你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在那很多的科學園區的工作的人口他是來自新竹縣市的所以新竹縣到新竹市有一個叫金國橋的\n他這一條橋已經長期塞車20幾年了沒有解決因為縣市的分治縣市的分治沒有解決所以竹科的人可能正常時間不是上下班時間我可能騎車或開車20分鐘到上下班時間一個小時那如果再加上下雨一個半小時\n這個就是一個很大的問題再來本席這個一個統計數字你看一下我們以這個稅收新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第五\n贏過另外兩個六都六都的桃園市跟台南市但是我們得到新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第九就加起來它的得到的比例是第九那我這樣講不是凸顯說我要爭取什麼我們今天不管升格或不升格不能是利益考量但是你看我講的二十幾年的塞車情況\n其實大家都現在現在每一個人都覺得這個我在這邊住30年20幾年永遠塞車我們中央也沒有協助你也知道一個交通的整個改善拓寬這不可能地方縣市政府可以這個跟這個我們整個的區域計畫是有關的那再來因為時間關係最後我要再提一點就是我們\n整個的這個區域規劃尤其是升格它不是一種獎勵升格像這個你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例譬如我舉例像桃園市桃園市升格之後它的面積一樣人口數升格後升格前沒有差很多\n但是因為他是直轄市所以變成他的公務人員新增了三千多人他的財政負擔也是一年人事費也增加了一百多億那實際上\n这个服务的量能跟品质有没有比较好不知道但是可能未来如果要考虑这个的话包含嘉义县市新竹县市或其他县市你要合并的时候你一样这么大的面积人口数你合并之后它也不会急剧可是你如果合并之后你的这个人事费还有人事的这相关规定这个都要考量\n您有聽懂本席表達的所以這些未來可能都是那我們今天因為主席排了這個案我們大家必須來正視必須來正視\n所以這個很多縣市然後再還有一個彰化縣彰化縣在台中升格之後其實整個彰化縣的人口也整個有吸食效應也這樣離開所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年這個行政區區劃法草案到現在本來只有一個直轄市現在變六個可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡\n那你這個職強式升格之後對旁邊的縣市它造成的影響跟效益這些我們都希望這個中央能夠來重視那現在既然如果要開啟本席是認為就是說是不是要不斷的溝通您一直說沒有共識沒有共識更要不斷的溝通討論更加努力的來凝聚共識那\n如果能夠達成而且能夠對台灣我們各縣市的不管是生活區域治理各方面能夠更好我們希望\n您这内政部长这边也许跟院长反映总统反映我们应该积极来做刚刚本席没提到就是北北极的这个大生活圈甚至大台北地区的这个交通各方面所以不是我们民众不希望只有到台风架才有所有区域治理的整合我们希望生活上各方面也都能够改善今天就是反映民意也希望部长部长你最后有没有什么要回应的\n你們非常的關心也非常的了解狀況了您剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格升格是最重要不是只有合併但是就有人提到說那新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起這是一個那還有一個您剛提到中張投那彰化跟桃園中張投跟南投要不要跟台中一起那還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格但是旁邊的雲林跟\n其他的縣市會不會就有不同的意見就是說這個是我們在考量當中啊就是跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實是很重要還有一個您提到零幣效應有這個焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常啊\n大家都不希望那個化到自己的選區裡面那這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾所以為什麼到現在為止啊有些比較小的這個縣市啊他們的這個這個林碧效應應該有的這個焚化爐都沒有以我們在高雄的例子來講\n我們遠從這個中部還有到東部都代收幫忙處理這個環境的廢棄物那其實是非常大的困擾甚至跨離島都有那為什麼因為就是跟區域治理也產生不同的困擾所以也是提供給委員做參考那我們當然會來努力 這些我知道但這個跟每個行政首長他\n要來做而且怎麼樣去突破這個都有關那剛剛你既然講到新竹縣市最後最後我想講一下當初新竹縣市的升格會為什麼會最後失敗而且被社會指責是因為當時只是一黨之私\n因人涉事所以造成了一些问题所以我们希望行政区画要公开透明而且要长期规划我本席最后强调人民的利益公众的利益是唯一考量而且是最重要的考量希望部长我们接下来如果中央要来推动也不要因为很多困难都不沟通不凝聚不去讨论所以我们希望还是要进步谢谢谢谢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.822 --> 00:18.084\n好謝謝主席本席有請部長劉部長劉部長有請徐委員好部長好今天我們這個召委非常的用心等於是我們這個所謂的行政區劃法已經是一部行政區劃法草案它已經是蒙城的一部草案\n\n00:44.079 --> 01:03.192\n您知道從什麼時候開始到現在嗎?從好像民國八十一年對民國八十一年到現在但歷經藍綠都沒有人好像真正的很重視而且整個的來推動所以今天本席在開始質詢跟您討論之前我想我們這一個\n\n01:07.150 --> 01:33.658\n这个行政区划法的草案它关乎的刚刚前面很多委员都有讲到不管是我们这个整个的治理效能生活圈的整合甚至民主的原则各方面它凸显了很多问题所以我们才会觉得说这个草案不能再躺在那我们必须好好的来讨论当然本席也听到部长您刚刚回答很多委员你都\n\n01:34.278 --> 02:00.713\n等於說你很有經驗不管擔任民意代表或是擔任這個行政首長你覺得這個法案要討論會有很多的很繁雜的甚至也很多的困難很多的阻礙但是本席在這裡要先講的就是說難勝能勝所以才難能可貴我們的這個中央單位我們不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭應該多做一些解決民眾的問題\n\n02:03.234 --> 02:28.339\n所以今天的讨论包括等一下本席提到的点也许有些会跟新竹有关但是我觉得我都不预设立场我也不为了不管是自己或是我们纯粹新竹县的利益而是要站在民众的需求还有这个时代的变迁它应该要能够来因应所以部长您认同吧这样的立场\n\n02:29.279 --> 02:54.781\n徐委員所提的我很多都認同只有一件事情就是我們沒有搞鬥爭我們都是依法來行政尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法它是涉及到跨政黨跟跨縣市的我們感受就是說中央多做一些真正治理還有對民眾好的少搞一些對立接著本席要來就教我們現在整個的行政區劃法\n\n02:55.862 --> 03:24.267\n它常常是都不太能反映都市的人口的都市的發展跟人口的變遷所以產生了很多的問題等於是凸顯出我們行政區劃的這個要盡快來進行譬如我想剛剛王美惠委員也有提到我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來已經等於嘉義市人口已經有26萬加上嘉義縣\n\n03:25.367 --> 03:41.632\n那这两个县市它分治那包含新竹县市也是一样新竹县现在人口已经60万新竹市46万加起来已经有100多万100万以上那现在像这种小县市\n\n03:43.172 --> 04:10.812\n我們人民生活有很多的嫌惡設施包含像生命紀念園區像焚化爐大家都不是很想要但是如果這種生活圈或是區域的這種治理它可以整合的話那就不見得每個縣市它一定要有自己的可能像我們其實新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市\n\n04:11.412 --> 04:30.277\n當然因為人口的一直的增加大概新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到應該也是會碰到就是說我們這個縣市所以站在這樣子您這個中央的立場是如何\n\n04:32.719 --> 04:46.318\n報告委員那個其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的你沒有辦法容納所有的從國家發展到地方村里組織的部分所以我的意思就是說應該這樣講我們行政區劃你要去討論的時候\n\n04:50.100 --> 05:09.372\n你一定會跟地方政府嘛跟所謂民意代表去溝通的時候那你的主力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題嘛所以您也一直的講我剛剛聽前面一些委員都說很困難很繁雜還有可能\n\n05:10.192 --> 05:23.777\n有些人會同意有些人你說什麼大零價少然後多零價大零價小多零價少所以這個東西就是所以我本席的意思就是說我們應該是去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的\n\n05:28.821 --> 05:45.928\n那我想您大概不是很懂我們的意思那接著我也譬如說像新竹縣市合併之前吵過你應該有印象那像這個就是新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期它其實在民國70幾年之前本來是合併的後來分開了\n\n05:50.089 --> 06:12.792\n那現在分開以後各自發展得非常好然後又有這種合併的聲音但是本席要一直強調我沒有特定的立場但是新竹縣市你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在那很多的科學園區的工作的人口他是來自新竹縣市的所以新竹縣到新竹市有一個叫金國橋的\n\n06:14.033 --> 06:39.206\n他這一條橋已經長期塞車20幾年了沒有解決因為縣市的分治縣市的分治沒有解決所以竹科的人可能正常時間不是上下班時間我可能騎車或開車20分鐘到上下班時間一個小時那如果再加上下雨一個半小時\n\n06:40.616 --> 06:50.640\n這個就是一個很大的問題再來本席這個一個統計數字你看一下我們以這個稅收新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第五\n\n06:55.483 --> 07:22.975\n贏過另外兩個六都六都的桃園市跟台南市但是我們得到新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第九就加起來它的得到的比例是第九那我這樣講不是凸顯說我要爭取什麼我們今天不管升格或不升格不能是利益考量但是你看我講的二十幾年的塞車情況\n\n07:24.625 --> 07:48.430\n其實大家都現在現在每一個人都覺得這個我在這邊住30年20幾年永遠塞車我們中央也沒有協助你也知道一個交通的整個改善拓寬這不可能地方縣市政府可以這個跟這個我們整個的區域計畫是有關的那再來因為時間關係最後我要再提一點就是我們\n\n07:49.744 --> 08:10.419\n整個的這個區域規劃尤其是升格它不是一種獎勵升格像這個你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例譬如我舉例像桃園市桃園市升格之後它的面積一樣人口數升格後升格前沒有差很多\n\n08:11.019 --> 08:22.975\n但是因為他是直轄市所以變成他的公務人員新增了三千多人他的財政負擔也是一年人事費也增加了一百多億那實際上\n\n08:25.188 --> 08:50.485\n这个服务的量能跟品质有没有比较好不知道但是可能未来如果要考虑这个的话包含嘉义县市新竹县市或其他县市你要合并的时候你一样这么大的面积人口数你合并之后它也不会急剧可是你如果合并之后你的这个人事费还有人事的这相关规定这个都要考量\n\n08:51.225 --> 09:00.050\n您有聽懂本席表達的所以這些未來可能都是那我們今天因為主席排了這個案我們大家必須來正視必須來正視\n\n09:03.618 --> 09:27.966\n所以這個很多縣市然後再還有一個彰化縣彰化縣在台中升格之後其實整個彰化縣的人口也整個有吸食效應也這樣離開所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年這個行政區區劃法草案到現在本來只有一個直轄市現在變六個可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡\n\n09:28.726 --> 09:53.645\n那你這個職強式升格之後對旁邊的縣市它造成的影響跟效益這些我們都希望這個中央能夠來重視那現在既然如果要開啟本席是認為就是說是不是要不斷的溝通您一直說沒有共識沒有共識更要不斷的溝通討論更加努力的來凝聚共識那\n\n09:54.145 --> 10:03.260\n如果能夠達成而且能夠對台灣我們各縣市的不管是生活區域治理各方面能夠更好我們希望\n\n10:04.625 --> 10:33.233\n您这内政部长这边也许跟院长反映总统反映我们应该积极来做刚刚本席没提到就是北北极的这个大生活圈甚至大台北地区的这个交通各方面所以不是我们民众不希望只有到台风架才有所有区域治理的整合我们希望生活上各方面也都能够改善今天就是反映民意也希望部长部长你最后有没有什么要回应的\n\n10:36.397 --> 11:01.448\n你們非常的關心也非常的了解狀況了您剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格升格是最重要不是只有合併但是就有人提到說那新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起這是一個那還有一個您剛提到中張投那彰化跟桃園中張投跟南投要不要跟台中一起那還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格但是旁邊的雲林跟\n\n11:03.209 --> 11:20.094\n其他的縣市會不會就有不同的意見就是說這個是我們在考量當中啊就是跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實是很重要還有一個您提到零幣效應有這個焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常啊\n\n11:20.914 --> 11:37.080\n大家都不希望那個化到自己的選區裡面那這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾所以為什麼到現在為止啊有些比較小的這個縣市啊他們的這個這個林碧效應應該有的這個焚化爐都沒有以我們在高雄的例子來講\n\n11:38.410 --> 11:58.322\n我們遠從這個中部還有到東部都代收幫忙處理這個環境的廢棄物那其實是非常大的困擾甚至跨離島都有那為什麼因為就是跟區域治理也產生不同的困擾所以也是提供給委員做參考那我們當然會來努力這些我知道但這個跟每個行政首長他\n\n11:59.082 --> 12:16.472\n要來做而且怎麼樣去突破這個都有關那剛剛你既然講到新竹縣市最後最後我想講一下當初新竹縣市的升格會為什麼會最後失敗而且被社會指責是因為當時只是一黨之私\n\n12:16.772 --> 12:42.843\n因人涉事所以造成了一些问题所以我们希望行政区画要公开透明而且要长期规划我本席最后强调人民的利益公众的利益是唯一考量而且是最重要的考量希望部长我们接下来如果中央要来推动也不要因为很多困难都不沟通不凝聚不去讨论所以我们希望还是要进步谢谢谢谢\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.822,"end":18.084,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席有請部長 劉部長劉部長有請徐委員好部長好 今天我們這個召委非常的用心等於是我們這個所謂的行政區劃法已經是一部行政區劃法草案它已經是蒙城的一部草案"},{"start":44.079,"end":63.192,"text":"您知道從什麼時候開始到現在嗎?從好像民國八十一年對 民國八十一年到現在但歷經藍綠都沒有人好像真正的很重視而且整個的來推動所以今天本席在開始質詢跟您討論之前我想我們這一個"},{"start":67.15,"end":93.658,"text":"这个行政区划法的草案它关乎的刚刚前面很多委员都有讲到不管是我们这个整个的治理效能生活圈的整合甚至民主的原则各方面它凸显了很多问题所以我们才会觉得说这个草案不能再躺在那我们必须好好的来讨论当然本席也听到部长您刚刚回答很多委员你都"},{"start":94.278,"end":120.713,"text":"等於說你很有經驗不管擔任民意代表或是擔任這個行政首長你覺得這個法案要討論會有很多的很繁雜的甚至也很多的困難很多的阻礙但是本席在這裡要先講的就是說難勝能勝所以才難能可貴我們的這個中央單位我們不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭應該多做一些解決民眾的問題"},{"start":123.234,"end":148.339,"text":"所以今天的讨论包括等一下本席提到的点也许有些会跟新竹有关但是我觉得我都不预设立场我也不为了不管是自己或是我们纯粹新竹县的利益而是要站在民众的需求还有这个时代的变迁它应该要能够来因应所以部长您认同吧这样的立场"},{"start":149.279,"end":174.781,"text":"徐委員所提的我很多都認同只有一件事情就是我們沒有搞鬥爭我們都是依法來行政尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法它是涉及到跨政黨跟跨縣市的我們感受就是說中央多做一些真正治理還有對民眾好的少搞一些對立接著本席要來就教我們現在整個的行政區劃法"},{"start":175.862,"end":204.267,"text":"它常常是都不太能反映都市的人口的都市的發展跟人口的變遷所以產生了很多的問題等於是凸顯出我們行政區劃的這個要盡快來進行譬如我想剛剛王美惠委員也有提到我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來已經等於嘉義市人口已經有26萬加上嘉義縣"},{"start":205.367,"end":221.632,"text":"那这两个县市它分治那包含新竹县市也是一样新竹县现在人口已经60万新竹市46万加起来已经有100多万100万以上那现在像这种小县市"},{"start":223.172,"end":250.812,"text":"我們人民生活有很多的嫌惡設施包含像生命紀念園區像焚化爐大家都不是很想要但是如果這種生活圈或是區域的這種治理它可以整合的話那就不見得每個縣市它一定要有自己的可能像我們其實新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市"},{"start":251.412,"end":270.277,"text":"當然因為人口的一直的增加大概新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到應該也是會碰到就是說我們這個縣市所以站在這樣子您這個中央的立場是如何"},{"start":272.719,"end":286.318,"text":"報告委員那個其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的你沒有辦法容納所有的從國家發展到地方村里組織的部分所以我的意思就是說應該這樣講我們行政區劃你要去討論的時候"},{"start":290.1,"end":309.372,"text":"你一定會跟地方政府嘛跟所謂民意代表去溝通的時候那你的主力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題嘛所以您也一直的講我剛剛聽前面一些委員都說很困難很繁雜還有可能"},{"start":310.192,"end":323.777,"text":"有些人會同意有些人你說什麼大零價少然後多零價大零價小多零價少所以這個東西就是所以我本席的意思就是說我們應該是去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的"},{"start":328.821,"end":345.928,"text":"那我想您大概不是很懂我們的意思那接著我也譬如說像新竹縣市合併之前吵過你應該有印象那像這個就是新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期它其實在民國70幾年之前本來是合併的後來分開了"},{"start":350.089,"end":372.792,"text":"那現在分開以後各自發展得非常好然後又有這種合併的聲音但是本席要一直強調我沒有特定的立場但是新竹縣市你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在那很多的科學園區的工作的人口他是來自新竹縣市的所以新竹縣到新竹市有一個叫金國橋的"},{"start":374.033,"end":399.206,"text":"他這一條橋已經長期塞車20幾年了沒有解決因為縣市的分治縣市的分治沒有解決所以竹科的人可能正常時間不是上下班時間我可能騎車或開車20分鐘到上下班時間一個小時那如果再加上下雨一個半小時"},{"start":400.616,"end":410.64,"text":"這個就是一個很大的問題再來本席這個一個統計數字你看一下我們以這個稅收新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第五"},{"start":415.483,"end":442.975,"text":"贏過另外兩個六都六都的桃園市跟台南市但是我們得到新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第九就加起來它的得到的比例是第九那我這樣講不是凸顯說我要爭取什麼我們今天不管升格或不升格不能是利益考量但是你看我講的二十幾年的塞車情況"},{"start":444.625,"end":468.43,"text":"其實大家都現在現在每一個人都覺得這個我在這邊住30年20幾年永遠塞車我們中央也沒有協助你也知道一個交通的整個改善拓寬這不可能地方縣市政府可以這個跟這個我們整個的區域計畫是有關的那再來因為時間關係最後我要再提一點就是我們"},{"start":469.744,"end":490.419,"text":"整個的這個區域規劃尤其是升格它不是一種獎勵升格像這個你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例譬如我舉例像桃園市桃園市升格之後它的面積一樣人口數升格後升格前沒有差很多"},{"start":491.019,"end":502.975,"text":"但是因為他是直轄市所以變成他的公務人員新增了三千多人他的財政負擔也是一年人事費也增加了一百多億那實際上"},{"start":505.188,"end":530.485,"text":"这个服务的量能跟品质有没有比较好不知道但是可能未来如果要考虑这个的话包含嘉义县市新竹县市或其他县市你要合并的时候你一样这么大的面积人口数你合并之后它也不会急剧可是你如果合并之后你的这个人事费还有人事的这相关规定这个都要考量"},{"start":531.225,"end":540.05,"text":"您有聽懂本席表達的所以這些未來可能都是那我們今天因為主席排了這個案我們大家必須來正視必須來正視"},{"start":543.618,"end":567.966,"text":"所以這個很多縣市然後再還有一個彰化縣彰化縣在台中升格之後其實整個彰化縣的人口也整個有吸食效應也這樣離開所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年這個行政區區劃法草案到現在本來只有一個直轄市現在變六個可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡"},{"start":568.726,"end":593.645,"text":"那你這個職強式升格之後對旁邊的縣市它造成的影響跟效益這些我們都希望這個中央能夠來重視那現在既然如果要開啟本席是認為就是說是不是要不斷的溝通您一直說沒有共識沒有共識更要不斷的溝通討論更加努力的來凝聚共識那"},{"start":594.145,"end":603.26,"text":"如果能夠達成而且能夠對台灣我們各縣市的不管是生活區域治理各方面能夠更好我們希望"},{"start":604.625,"end":633.233,"text":"您这内政部长这边也许跟院长反映总统反映我们应该积极来做刚刚本席没提到就是北北极的这个大生活圈甚至大台北地区的这个交通各方面所以不是我们民众不希望只有到台风架才有所有区域治理的整合我们希望生活上各方面也都能够改善今天就是反映民意也希望部长部长你最后有没有什么要回应的"},{"start":636.397,"end":661.448,"text":"你們非常的關心也非常的了解狀況了您剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格升格是最重要不是只有合併但是就有人提到說那新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起這是一個那還有一個您剛提到中張投那彰化跟桃園中張投跟南投要不要跟台中一起那還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格但是旁邊的雲林跟"},{"start":663.209,"end":680.094,"text":"其他的縣市會不會就有不同的意見就是說這個是我們在考量當中啊就是跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實是很重要還有一個您提到零幣效應有這個焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常啊"},{"start":680.914,"end":697.08,"text":"大家都不希望那個化到自己的選區裡面那這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾所以為什麼到現在為止啊有些比較小的這個縣市啊他們的這個這個林碧效應應該有的這個焚化爐都沒有以我們在高雄的例子來講"},{"start":698.41,"end":718.322,"text":"我們遠從這個中部還有到東部都代收幫忙處理這個環境的廢棄物那其實是非常大的困擾甚至跨離島都有那為什麼因為就是跟區域治理也產生不同的困擾所以也是提供給委員做參考那我們當然會來努力 這些我知道但這個跟每個行政首長他"},{"start":719.082,"end":736.472,"text":"要來做而且怎麼樣去突破這個都有關那剛剛你既然講到新竹縣市最後最後我想講一下當初新竹縣市的升格會為什麼會最後失敗而且被社會指責是因為當時只是一黨之私"},{"start":736.772,"end":762.843,"text":"因人涉事所以造成了一些问题所以我们希望行政区画要公开透明而且要长期规划我本席最后强调人民的利益公众的利益是唯一考量而且是最重要的考量希望部长我们接下来如果中央要来推动也不要因为很多困难都不沟通不凝聚不去讨论所以我们希望还是要进步谢谢谢谢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時48分）好，謝謝主席。本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。今天我們召委非常的用心，所謂的行政區劃法草案已經是一部蒙塵的草案，您知道從什麼時候開始到現在嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好像是民國81年嗎？已經很久了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對，從民國81年到現在，歷經藍綠好像都沒有人真正重視而且整個來推動，所以今天本席在開始質詢之前跟您討論，有關這個行政區劃法草案所關乎的，剛剛前面很多委員都有講到，不管是我們整個治理效能、生活圈的整合，甚至民主的原則各方面，它凸顯了很多問題，所以我們才會覺得這個草案不能再躺在那裡了，我們必須好好來討論。當然，本席也聽到部長您剛剛回答很多委員，等於說你很有經驗，不管擔任民意代表或是擔任行政首長，你覺得這個法案的討論會有很多、很繁雜的，甚至也有很多的困難、很多的阻礙！但是本席在這裡要先講的就是「難勝能勝」，所以才難能可貴，我們的中央單位不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭，應該多做一些事來解決民眾的問題，所以今天的討論包括等一下本席提到的點，也許有些會跟新竹有關，但是我都不預設立場，我也不為了自己或是純粹新竹縣的利益，而是要站在民眾的需求還有時代的變遷，這些都應該要能夠來因應。所以部長，您認同這樣的立場吧？"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員所提的，我很多都認同，只有一件事情，就是我們沒有搞鬥爭，我們都是依法來行政。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。"],["劉部長世芳：尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法，它是涉及到跨政黨和跨縣市。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是說那個心思。OK！OK！我們的感受就是請中央多做一些真正的治理還有對民眾好的，少搞一些對立。好，接著本席要來就教，現在整個行政區劃法常常都不能反映都市的發展跟人口的變遷，所以產生了很多問題，等於是凸顯出相關行政區劃要儘快來進行。譬如，剛剛王美惠委員也有提到，我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來，嘉義市人口已經有26萬再加上嘉義縣，這兩個縣市它分治，包含新竹縣市也是一樣，新竹縣現在人口已經有60萬，新竹市46萬，加起來已經有一百多萬、100萬以上，現在像這種小縣市，我們人民的生活有很多嫌惡設施，包含像生命紀念園區、焚化爐，大家都不是很想要，但是如果這種生活圈或是區域治理可以整合的話，就不見得每個縣市一定要有自己的，像我們新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市，但因為人口一直增加，新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題，所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到，針對像我們這樣的縣市，所以您站在中央的立場是如何？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的，你沒有辦法容納所有的，從國家發展到地方村里組織……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對，我知道、我知道，所以我的意思就是說，我們要去討論行政區劃的時候，你一定會跟地方政府、民意代表溝通。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的阻力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題，所以您也一直在講，我剛剛聽你回復前面一些委員，你就說很困難、很繁雜，還有可能有些人會同意，你還說什麼大凌駕小、多凌駕少等等，所以本席的意思就是說，我們應該去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的，對不對？我想，您大概不是很懂我們的意思，接著我以新竹縣市合併為例，之前有吵過，你應該有印象，新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期……其實在民國七十幾年之前本來是合併的，後來分開了，現在分開以後，各自發展得非常好，然後又有這種合併的聲音，但是本席要一直強調，我沒有特定的立場，但是你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在新竹縣市，很多的科學園區的工作人口來自新竹縣市，所以新竹縣到新竹市有一條經國橋，這條橋已經長期塞車二十幾年沒有解決，因為縣市分治導致沒有解決，所以竹科的人在正常時間（不是上下班時間）可能騎車或開車20分鐘就到了，但是在上下班時間要1個小時，如果再加上下雨，可能要一個半小時，這就是一個很大的問題。","再來，一個統計數字你看一下，我們以稅收來看，新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第5，贏過另外兩個六都──桃園市及臺南市，但是新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第9，就是加起來得到的比例是第9，我這樣講不是凸顯我要爭取什麼，我們今天不管升格或不升格，不能是利益考量，但是你看我講的，二十幾年的塞車情況，其實現在每個人都覺得自己在這邊住二、三十年，永遠塞車，中央也沒有協助，你也知道整個交通的改善、拓寬不可能地方縣市政府就可以，這個跟整個區域計畫是有關的。","再來因為時間的關係，最後我要再提一點，就是整個區域規劃，尤其是升格，它不是一種獎勵，你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例，譬如我舉例像桃園市，桃園市升格之後，它的面積一樣，人口數升格前後沒有差很多，但是因為它是直轄市，所以變成它的公務人員新增了三千多人，它的財政負擔人事費一年也增加了一百多億，實際上服務量能跟品質有沒有比較好？不知道，但是可能未來如果要考慮這個的話，包含嘉義縣市、新竹縣市或其他縣市要合併的時候，一樣這麼大的面積、人口數合併之後，它也不會集聚嘛！可是如果合併之後，人事費還有人事相關規定都要考量，您有聽懂本席所表達的？"],["劉部長世芳：我懂。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這些未來可能都是，今天因為主席排了這個案，我們大家必須來正視，所以很多縣市……還有彰化縣，彰化縣在臺中升格之後，其實整個彰化縣的人口也有磁吸效應，也這樣離開。所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年行政區劃法草案到現在，本來只有1個直轄市現在變6個，可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡，直轄市升格之後，對旁邊縣市所造成的影響及效益，這些我們都希望中央能夠重視，現在既然要開啟，本席認為是不是要不斷地溝通，您一直說沒有共識，沒有共識更要不斷地溝通、討論，更加努力地來凝聚共識，如果能夠達成而且對臺灣各縣市不管是生活、區域治理等各方面能夠更好，我們希望內政部長這邊也許跟院長反映、跟總統反映，我們應該積極來做，剛剛本席沒提到的就是北北基的大生活圈，甚至大臺北地區的交通等各方面，所以我們民眾不希望只有要放颱風假時才有區域治理的整合，我們希望生活上各方面也都能夠改善，今天就是反映民意，也希望部長……部長，你最後有沒有什麼要回應的？"],["劉部長世芳：委員非常關心、也非常了解狀況，您剛剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格，升格是最重要的，不是只有合併，但是就有人提到新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起？這是一個，還有一個，您剛剛提到中彰投，彰化跟南投要不要跟臺中一起？還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格，但是旁邊的雲林跟其他縣市會不會就有不同的意見？就是說這個是我們在考量當中，跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實這很重要。還有您提到有鄰避效應，焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常大家都不希望劃到自己的選區裡面，這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾，所以為什麼到現在為止，有一些比較小的縣市，他們因為鄰避效應所以連應該要有的焚化爐都沒有，以我們在高雄的例子來講，遠從中部到東部，我們都有代收、幫忙處理環境的廢棄物，那其實是非常大的困擾，甚至跨離島都有，為什麼？就是因為區域治理而產生不同的困擾，所以也提供給委員做參考，那我們當然會來努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這些我知道，當然這要看每個行政首長要怎麼來做、要怎麼樣去突破，這個都有關。你既然講到新竹縣市，我就想講一下，當初新竹縣市的升格最後為什麼會失敗而且被社會指責，就是因為當時只是一黨之私、因人設事，造成了一些問題，所以我們希望行政區劃要公開透明，而且要長期規劃。本席最後要強調，人民的利益、公眾的利益是唯一考量，而且是最重要的考量，部長，我們接下來如果中央要來推動，也不要因為有很多困難所以都不溝通、不凝聚共識、不去討論，我們希望還是要進步，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","下一位我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃建賓","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案；二、審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「行政\n區劃法草案」案【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144001_00001"}}}