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00:01:21,427\n姿意的身份都很高都是驚傲人員姿意久之等身份很高也是涉及到共諜當然除了這個之外還有其他的譬如說這個民進黨民主協議前副主任邱思演還有這個新北市議員李儀典\n\n4\n00:01:23,547 --> 00:01:48,981\n當然還有我們其他的立委的曾經當過助理的都涉及到共諜案那這些共諜案我們就看這個無論是外交部或是國安會或是總統府這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索也沒有去搜索民進黨的辦公室\n\n5\n00:01:53,782 --> 00:02:22,379\n沒有去搜索但是對我們看這個花蓮縣政府民政處的處長明良珍搜索花蓮縣政府而且還羈押這個明良珍處長花蓮地方法院三點裁定的理由檢察官\n\n6\n00:02:23,527 --> 00:02:48,589\n的資料裡面顯示得認明良真犯違反個人資料保護法第44條41條之公務員假借植物上的機會非法利用個人資料罪嫌疑重大請問一下部長過去涉及個人資料保護法違反個資法的\n\n7\n00:02:50,785 --> 00:03:09,836\n有哪些去搜索然後羈押的可以提出相關的案例嗎我這邊沒有我手上沒有這部分的一個資料那我想但是以這個這個個案來講這是檢察官有跟法院申請搜索法官有核准那個這個依法來自寫\n\n8\n00:03:16,141 --> 00:03:37,731\n犯難不犯例,何況是共諜案,這麼嚴重啊這個個人資料保護法有嚴重到要收手然後還要羈押還要羈押寫得很明確啊,個人資料保護法好,我們就看條文\n\n9\n00:03:39,452 --> 00:04:07,383\n個人資料保護法第41條剛才提的條文意圖為自己或第三人不法自立或損害他人自立而違反這些條文的規定這個五年以下有期徒刑我們看這個個人資料保護法第44條如果假借植物上的權利加重期刑個人資料保護法第16條\n\n10\n00:04:09,602 --> 00:04:31,855\n公務機關對個人資料之利用除第六條第一項第六條就是那個醫院的那個部分其他的有效的情形者得為特定目的外之利用法例明文規定公職人選舉辦法第七十六條本來就是要去查核\n\n11\n00:04:33,078 --> 00:05:02,195\n公務選委會選委會然後透過這個相關的這些負責人員本來就要去查對到底是不是是不是他本人是不是他有個資的這個資料對不對本來就要去查對選舉委員會說到罷免案對提議人就要去查這個身份資料到底對不對這是法律的義務法律的義務\n\n12\n00:05:03,783 --> 00:05:28,645\n更重要的大家比較妙氣注意的公職聯選舉罷免法第77條現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或郭烏樂園不得為罷免案的提人光看這個戶籍資料早期我們的戶籍資料會有這個職業欄現在的戶籍\n\n13\n00:05:32,342 --> 00:05:59,100\n戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了沒有職業欄了那他是不是先運軍人要去查核啊他是不是替代役要查核啊他是不是公務人員要查核啊他是依法去查核結果被稱為查水表然後然後要鬆手是要羈押部長\n\n14\n00:06:03,325 --> 00:06:12,530\n局長調查局局長怎麼樣本來就要去查去問他因為我父親知道看不出來啊\n\n15\n00:06:14,345 --> 00:06:30,578\n謝謝委員我想那個個案的偵查的內容我無法在這邊說明不過也謝謝委員剛才有提到就個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責對所以我想也謝謝委員提醒這個部分的法條的規定這個要請法務部\n\n16\n00:06:34,458 --> 00:06:54,038\n這個你說當然你一定回答說這個個案不便回答但是法律的規定最起碼有責任有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解所有的代法局能夠了解相關的法規好不好有我們現在就是依這個法在執行好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n609\t20175\t請答完畢之後我們就處理臨時提案 謝謝主席 各位委員有請法務部部長麻煩部長還有調查局局長部長好 局長好\n31367\t54778\t我們看這個最近的這個共諜案這個我們總統辦公室的之一吳尚儀這個涉及共諜案然後這個吳釗燮他的前助理也就在外交部國安會他的助理\n55908\t81427\t姿意的身份都很高都是驚傲人員姿意久之等身份很高也是涉及到共諜當然除了這個之外還有其他的譬如說這個民進黨民主協議前副主任邱思演還有這個新北市議員李儀典\n83547\t108981\t當然還有我們其他的立委的曾經當過助理的都涉及到共諜案那這些共諜案我們就看這個無論是外交部或是國安會或是總統府這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索也沒有去搜索民進黨的辦公室\n113782\t142379\t沒有去搜索但是對我們看這個花蓮縣政府民政處的處長明良珍搜索花蓮縣政府而且還羈押這個明良珍處長花蓮地方法院三點裁定的理由檢察官\n143527\t168589\t的資料裡面顯示得認明良真犯違反個人資料保護法第44條41條之公務員假借植物上的機會非法利用個人資料罪嫌疑重大請問一下部長過去涉及個人資料保護法違反個資法的\n170785\t189836\t有哪些去搜索然後羈押的可以提出相關的案例嗎我這邊沒有我手上沒有這部分的一個資料那我想但是以這個這個個案來講這是檢察官有跟法院申請搜索法官有核准那個這個依法來自寫\n196141\t217731\t犯難不犯例,何況是共諜案,這麼嚴重啊這個個人資料保護法有嚴重到要收手然後還要羈押還要羈押寫得很明確啊,個人資料保護法好,我們就看條文\n219452\t247383\t個人資料保護法第41條剛才提的條文意圖為自己或第三人不法自立或損害他人自立而違反這些條文的規定這個五年以下有期徒刑我們看這個個人資料保護法第44條如果假借植物上的權利加重期刑個人資料保護法第16條\n249602\t271855\t公務機關對個人資料之利用除第六條第一項 第六條就是那個醫院的那個部分其他的有效的情形者得為特定目的外之利用法例明文規定公職人選舉辦法第七十六條本來就是要去查核\n273078\t302195\t公務 選委會選委會然後透過這個相關的這些負責人員本來就要去查對到底是不是是不是他本人是不是他有個資的這個資料對不對本來就要去查對選舉委員會說到罷免案對提議人就要去查這個身份資料到底對不對這是法律的義務法律的義務\n303783\t328645\t更重要的大家比較妙氣注意的公職聯選舉罷免法第77條現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或郭烏樂園不得為罷免案的提人光看這個戶籍資料早期我們的戶籍資料會有這個職業欄現在的戶籍\n332342\t359100\t戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了沒有職業欄了那他是不是先運軍人要去查核啊他是不是替代役要查核啊他是不是公務人員要查核啊他是依法去查核結果被稱為查水表然後然後要鬆手是要羈押部長\n363325\t372530\t局長 調查局局長 怎麼樣本來就要去查 去問他因為我父親知道看不出來啊\n374345\t390578\t謝謝委員我想那個個案的偵查的內容我無法在這邊說明不過也謝謝委員剛才有提到就個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責對所以我想也謝謝委員提醒這個部分的法條的規定這個要請法務部\n394458\t414038\t這個你說當然你一定回答說這個個案不便回答但是法律的規定最起碼有責任有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解所有的代法局能夠了解相關的法規好不好有 我們現在就是依這個法在執行好 謝謝 謝謝\n","txt":"請答完畢之後我們就處理臨時提案 謝謝主席 各位委員有請法務部部長麻煩部長還有調查局局長部長好 局長好\n我們看這個最近的這個共諜案這個我們總統辦公室的之一吳尚儀這個涉及共諜案然後這個吳釗燮他的前助理也就在外交部國安會他的助理\n姿意的身份都很高都是驚傲人員姿意久之等身份很高也是涉及到共諜當然除了這個之外還有其他的譬如說這個民進黨民主協議前副主任邱思演還有這個新北市議員李儀典\n當然還有我們其他的立委的曾經當過助理的都涉及到共諜案那這些共諜案我們就看這個無論是外交部或是國安會或是總統府這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索也沒有去搜索民進黨的辦公室\n沒有去搜索但是對我們看這個花蓮縣政府民政處的處長明良珍搜索花蓮縣政府而且還羈押這個明良珍處長花蓮地方法院三點裁定的理由檢察官\n的資料裡面顯示得認明良真犯違反個人資料保護法第44條41條之公務員假借植物上的機會非法利用個人資料罪嫌疑重大請問一下部長過去涉及個人資料保護法違反個資法的\n有哪些去搜索然後羈押的可以提出相關的案例嗎我這邊沒有我手上沒有這部分的一個資料那我想但是以這個這個個案來講這是檢察官有跟法院申請搜索法官有核准那個這個依法來自寫\n犯難不犯例,何況是共諜案,這麼嚴重啊這個個人資料保護法有嚴重到要收手然後還要羈押還要羈押寫得很明確啊,個人資料保護法好,我們就看條文\n個人資料保護法第41條剛才提的條文意圖為自己或第三人不法自立或損害他人自立而違反這些條文的規定這個五年以下有期徒刑我們看這個個人資料保護法第44條如果假借植物上的權利加重期刑個人資料保護法第16條\n公務機關對個人資料之利用除第六條第一項 第六條就是那個醫院的那個部分其他的有效的情形者得為特定目的外之利用法例明文規定公職人選舉辦法第七十六條本來就是要去查核\n公務 選委會選委會然後透過這個相關的這些負責人員本來就要去查對到底是不是是不是他本人是不是他有個資的這個資料對不對本來就要去查對選舉委員會說到罷免案對提議人就要去查這個身份資料到底對不對這是法律的義務法律的義務\n更重要的大家比較妙氣注意的公職聯選舉罷免法第77條現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或郭烏樂園不得為罷免案的提人光看這個戶籍資料早期我們的戶籍資料會有這個職業欄現在的戶籍\n戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了沒有職業欄了那他是不是先運軍人要去查核啊他是不是替代役要查核啊他是不是公務人員要查核啊他是依法去查核結果被稱為查水表然後然後要鬆手是要羈押部長\n局長 調查局局長 怎麼樣本來就要去查 去問他因為我父親知道看不出來啊\n謝謝委員我想那個個案的偵查的內容我無法在這邊說明不過也謝謝委員剛才有提到就個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責對所以我想也謝謝委員提醒這個部分的法條的規定這個要請法務部\n這個你說當然你一定回答說這個個案不便回答但是法律的規定最起碼有責任有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解所有的代法局能夠了解相關的法規好不好有 我們現在就是依這個法在執行好 謝謝 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.609 --> 00:20.175\n請答完畢之後我們就處理臨時提案謝謝主席各位委員有請法務部部長麻煩部長還有調查局局長部長好局長好\n\n00:31.367 --> 00:54.778\n我們看這個最近的這個共諜案這個我們總統辦公室的之一吳尚儀這個涉及共諜案然後這個吳釗燮他的前助理也就在外交部國安會他的助理\n\n00:55.908 --> 01:21.427\n姿意的身份都很高都是驚傲人員姿意久之等身份很高也是涉及到共諜當然除了這個之外還有其他的譬如說這個民進黨民主協議前副主任邱思演還有這個新北市議員李儀典\n\n01:23.547 --> 01:48.981\n當然還有我們其他的立委的曾經當過助理的都涉及到共諜案那這些共諜案我們就看這個無論是外交部或是國安會或是總統府這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索也沒有去搜索民進黨的辦公室\n\n01:53.782 --> 02:22.379\n沒有去搜索但是對我們看這個花蓮縣政府民政處的處長明良珍搜索花蓮縣政府而且還羈押這個明良珍處長花蓮地方法院三點裁定的理由檢察官\n\n02:23.527 --> 02:48.589\n的資料裡面顯示得認明良真犯違反個人資料保護法第44條41條之公務員假借植物上的機會非法利用個人資料罪嫌疑重大請問一下部長過去涉及個人資料保護法違反個資法的\n\n02:50.785 --> 03:09.836\n有哪些去搜索然後羈押的可以提出相關的案例嗎我這邊沒有我手上沒有這部分的一個資料那我想但是以這個這個個案來講這是檢察官有跟法院申請搜索法官有核准那個這個依法來自寫\n\n03:16.141 --> 03:37.731\n犯難不犯例,何況是共諜案,這麼嚴重啊這個個人資料保護法有嚴重到要收手然後還要羈押還要羈押寫得很明確啊,個人資料保護法好,我們就看條文\n\n03:39.452 --> 04:07.383\n個人資料保護法第41條剛才提的條文意圖為自己或第三人不法自立或損害他人自立而違反這些條文的規定這個五年以下有期徒刑我們看這個個人資料保護法第44條如果假借植物上的權利加重期刑個人資料保護法第16條\n\n04:09.602 --> 04:31.855\n公務機關對個人資料之利用除第六條第一項第六條就是那個醫院的那個部分其他的有效的情形者得為特定目的外之利用法例明文規定公職人選舉辦法第七十六條本來就是要去查核\n\n04:33.078 --> 05:02.195\n公務選委會選委會然後透過這個相關的這些負責人員本來就要去查對到底是不是是不是他本人是不是他有個資的這個資料對不對本來就要去查對選舉委員會說到罷免案對提議人就要去查這個身份資料到底對不對這是法律的義務法律的義務\n\n05:03.783 --> 05:28.645\n更重要的大家比較妙氣注意的公職聯選舉罷免法第77條現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或郭烏樂園不得為罷免案的提人光看這個戶籍資料早期我們的戶籍資料會有這個職業欄現在的戶籍\n\n05:32.342 --> 05:59.100\n戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了沒有職業欄了那他是不是先運軍人要去查核啊他是不是替代役要查核啊他是不是公務人員要查核啊他是依法去查核結果被稱為查水表然後然後要鬆手是要羈押部長\n\n06:03.325 --> 06:12.530\n局長調查局局長怎麼樣本來就要去查去問他因為我父親知道看不出來啊\n\n06:14.345 --> 06:30.578\n謝謝委員我想那個個案的偵查的內容我無法在這邊說明不過也謝謝委員剛才有提到就個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責對所以我想也謝謝委員提醒這個部分的法條的規定這個要請法務部\n\n06:34.458 --> 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局長好"},{"start":31.367,"end":54.778,"text":"我們看這個最近的這個共諜案這個我們總統辦公室的之一吳尚儀這個涉及共諜案然後這個吳釗燮他的前助理也就在外交部國安會他的助理"},{"start":55.908,"end":81.427,"text":"姿意的身份都很高都是驚傲人員姿意久之等身份很高也是涉及到共諜當然除了這個之外還有其他的譬如說這個民進黨民主協議前副主任邱思演還有這個新北市議員李儀典"},{"start":83.547,"end":108.981,"text":"當然還有我們其他的立委的曾經當過助理的都涉及到共諜案那這些共諜案我們就看這個無論是外交部或是國安會或是總統府這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索也沒有去搜索民進黨的辦公室"},{"start":113.782,"end":142.379,"text":"沒有去搜索但是對我們看這個花蓮縣政府民政處的處長明良珍搜索花蓮縣政府而且還羈押這個明良珍處長花蓮地方法院三點裁定的理由檢察官"},{"start":143.527,"end":168.589,"text":"的資料裡面顯示得認明良真犯違反個人資料保護法第44條41條之公務員假借植物上的機會非法利用個人資料罪嫌疑重大請問一下部長過去涉及個人資料保護法違反個資法的"},{"start":170.785,"end":189.836,"text":"有哪些去搜索然後羈押的可以提出相關的案例嗎我這邊沒有我手上沒有這部分的一個資料那我想但是以這個這個個案來講這是檢察官有跟法院申請搜索法官有核准那個這個依法來自寫"},{"start":196.141,"end":217.731,"text":"犯難不犯例,何況是共諜案,這麼嚴重啊這個個人資料保護法有嚴重到要收手然後還要羈押還要羈押寫得很明確啊,個人資料保護法好,我們就看條文"},{"start":219.452,"end":247.383,"text":"個人資料保護法第41條剛才提的條文意圖為自己或第三人不法自立或損害他人自立而違反這些條文的規定這個五年以下有期徒刑我們看這個個人資料保護法第44條如果假借植物上的權利加重期刑個人資料保護法第16條"},{"start":249.602,"end":271.855,"text":"公務機關對個人資料之利用除第六條第一項 第六條就是那個醫院的那個部分其他的有效的情形者得為特定目的外之利用法例明文規定公職人選舉辦法第七十六條本來就是要去查核"},{"start":273.078,"end":302.195,"text":"公務 選委會選委會然後透過這個相關的這些負責人員本來就要去查對到底是不是是不是他本人是不是他有個資的這個資料對不對本來就要去查對選舉委員會說到罷免案對提議人就要去查這個身份資料到底對不對這是法律的義務法律的義務"},{"start":303.783,"end":328.645,"text":"更重要的大家比較妙氣注意的公職聯選舉罷免法第77條現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或郭烏樂園不得為罷免案的提人光看這個戶籍資料早期我們的戶籍資料會有這個職業欄現在的戶籍"},{"start":332.342,"end":359.1,"text":"戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了沒有職業欄了那他是不是先運軍人要去查核啊他是不是替代役要查核啊他是不是公務人員要查核啊他是依法去查核結果被稱為查水表然後然後要鬆手是要羈押部長"},{"start":363.325,"end":372.53,"text":"局長 調查局局長 怎麼樣本來就要去查 去問他因為我父親知道看不出來啊"},{"start":374.345,"end":390.578,"text":"謝謝委員我想那個個案的偵查的內容我無法在這邊說明不過也謝謝委員剛才有提到就個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責對所以我想也謝謝委員提醒這個部分的法條的規定這個要請法務部"},{"start":394.458,"end":414.038,"text":"這個你說當然你一定回答說這個個案不便回答但是法律的規定最起碼有責任有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解所有的代法局能夠了解相關的法規好不好有 我們現在就是依這個法在執行好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1009,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時37分）主席、各位委員，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：好，麻煩部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有調查局局長。"],["主席：局長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好、局長好。我們看最近這個共諜案，總統辦公室諮議吳尚雨涉及共諜案；吳釗燮的前助理，也就是在外交部、國安會的助理，他們身分都很高，都是機要人員、諮議，諮議九職等的身分很高，也涉及共諜案。當然除了這個之外還有其他的，譬如說民進黨民主學院前副主任邱世元，還有新北市議員李余典，以及其他曾經當過立委助理的都涉及共諜案。我們就看這些共諜案，無論是外交部或是國安會還是總統府，這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索，也沒有搜索民進黨的辦公室，都沒有去搜索。但是我們看花蓮縣政府民政處的處長──明良臻，他們不但搜索花蓮縣政府，而且還羈押明良臻處長，花蓮地方法院裁定的理由有三點，在檢察官的資料裡面顯示，得認明良臻犯違反個人資料保護法第四十四條、第四十一條之公務員假借職務上機會非法利用個人資料罪，嫌疑重大。請問一下部長，過去涉及個人資料保護法、違反個資法的有哪些是去搜索然後羈押的？可以提出相關的案例嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我這邊沒有，我手上沒有這部分的資料。我想以這個個案來講，檢察官有跟法院聲請搜索，法官有核准搜索票，依法執行……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道這個就是辦藍不辦綠，何況是共諜案！這麼嚴重耶！個人資料保護法有嚴重到要搜索還要羈押？寫得很明確啊，依照個人資料保護法，好，我們就來看條文，個人資料保護法第四十一條，這是剛才提的條文，意圖為自己或第三人不法之利益或損害他人之利益，而違反這些條文規定……處五年以下有期徒刑。我們看個人資料保護法第四十四條，公務員假借職務上的權力，加重其刑；個人資料保護法第十六條，公務機關對個人資料之利用，除第六條第一項……第六條就是那個醫院的部分，其他有下列情形者，得為特定目的外之利用：法律明文規定。","公職人員選舉罷免法第七十六條本來就是要去查核，選委會透過相關的戶政人員本來就要去查對到底是不是他本人，針對個資資料對不對，這本來就要去查對，選舉委員會收到罷免案，提議人就要去查這個身分資料到底對不對，這是法律的義務。更重要的，大家比較沒有注意的，公職人員選舉罷免法第七十七條，現役軍人、服替代役之現役役男或公務人員，不得為罷免案的提議人。光看這個戶籍資料，早期我們的戶籍資料會有職業欄，現在戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了，沒有職業欄了，那他是不是現役軍人要去查核啊！他是不是替代役要查核啊！他是不是公務人員要查核啊！他是依法去查核，結果被稱為查水表，然後要搜索、羈押。部長、調查局局長怎麼樣？本來就要去查的，本來就要問啊！因為戶籍資料看不出來啊！"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員，關於個案偵查的內容，我無法在這邊說明……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，你們都會這樣回答……"],["陳局長白立：不過也謝謝委員剛才提到的，個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑，而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["陳局長白立：所以也謝謝委員提醒這部分法條的規定。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個要請法務部，當然你一定回答這個是個案，你不便回答，但是法律的規定，最起碼有責任、有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解，讓調查局能夠了解相關的法規，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：有，我們現在就是依這個法在執行。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在就依照先前宣告，處理臨時提案共一案，宣讀後再進行處理。","今日（04/21）本（司法及法制委員）會邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。詎料，國安會竟於未經主席准假，未派員到會列席。","1.我國近期接連爆出共諜案，執政黨府院黨皆淪陷。從2017年5月24日吳釗燮擔任總統府秘書長、2018年2月26日外交部部長、甚至現在擔任國家安全會議秘書長，共諜皆隨侍左右，甚至總統侍衛室也淪陷，可說敵人就在本能寺。然國安會竟未到會列席，如此心虛且藐視國會之行為令人瞠目結舌且不齒。","2.國家安全會議組織法第8條「國家安全會議及其所屬國家安全局應受立法院之監督，國家安全局組織另以法律定之。」本會依法監督國安會，自無爭議。","3.《中央行政機關組織基準法》第三條：","一、機關：就法定事務，有決定並表示國家意思於外部，而依組織法律或命令（以下簡稱組織法規）設立，行使公權力之組織。","國安會既為機關且下轄國安局，所謂「諮詢機關」實屬矛盾。","爰此決議如下：","1.國家安全會議未經本會輪值召委同意，拒絕到會接受監督，藐視本會應予譴責。","2.國家安全會議應於今日12：00前派員列席本會報告。","提案人：黃國昌　　林倩綺　　王鴻薇"],["主席：謝謝。請問提案委員有無補充說明？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有。"],["主席：好。針對臨時提案，請問機關有無其他意見或說明？（無）沒有。","請問在場委員有無異議或是有意見補充？"],["王委員義川：有！"],["主席：王委員。"],["王委員義川：坐在這裡發言就可以了？好。","我再詢問一次我們司法法制委員會的同仁，你們有沒有收到國家安全會議的請假書函？可以回答嗎？你們剛剛10點多回答我都沒有，對不對？"],["張主任秘書智為：對，他們有發文，但是我們沒收文。"],["王委員義川：你們沒收到，是不是？"],["張主任秘書智為：我們沒收文。"],["王委員義川：好。2025年4月18號16點39分18秒，立法院司法法制委員會收文確認。你們自己收了，你們的電子公文自己收了。然後我剛剛問你，主席還叫你們去查，你們都收了耶，你們都收了公文，然後主席叫你們去查，查完之後你說你們都沒收到，我剛剛10點多問你，你們說沒收到。然後吳宗憲委員辦公室是在2025年4月18號16點38分50秒收到了。"],["主席：沒有！沒有這種事情！"],["王委員義川：收文方確認。"],["主席：沒有啊！"],["陳委員培瑜：有啊，這裡啊，電子公文收發系統啊！"],["主席：我們這邊沒有收。"],["王委員義川：那誰幫你們收了？"],["主席：而且我已經說明得非常清楚了……"],["沈委員發惠：……舌頭長在你嘴巴……"],["主席：當天有自稱是國安會的人到我辦公室，我辦公室……"],["王委員義川：召委，我不為難你……"],["主席：我辦公室的人問他要做什麼，他說要請假。然後他就問了那位國安會的人：請問有沒有跟召委說？他說：沒有。那我們同仁就拒收，這個我剛剛在現場有跟王委員報告過。"],["王委員義川：這個我9點多有聽到，我現在只是要確認司法及法制委員會的同仁在禮拜五沒有收到任何的電子公文？你們也沒有任何的確認，對嗎？我剛剛10點多問一次，你們說對，我現在問你們又說對。要確定喔？所有收文的紀錄都在上面。"],["沈委員發惠：這叫周萬來解釋一下！叫周萬來來解釋為什麼會這樣，當天他們就收到收文方確認了。"],["主席：我想我這邊就是從頭到尾沒有來跟我請假就對了，講一個最簡單的，我不管國安會今天跟誰請假，各位很多人也都做過召委，如果今天機關的人來，連我他們都不不來理我，那我今天不管他跟誰請假啊，就是沒有人來跟我請假。以上。","好，吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，剛剛您不是說國安會有派人到您辦公室要跟您請假嗎？這不是剛剛您說的？您現在又說沒有人來跟您請假。"],["主席：我再說一次，他沒有來找我。有一天……"],["吳委員思瑤：到您的辦公室不是要找委員嗎？"],["主席：吳委員，我先說清楚，吳委員不要在那邊……"],["吳委員思瑤：不是、不是，我想要釐清……"],["主席：不要在那邊搞不清楚，事實只有我清楚……"],["吳委員思瑤：因為剛剛您說的啊！"],["主席：我跟各位報告，我說清楚一下。第一個，有一位自稱是國安會的人到我辦公室，拿了一個信封袋，然後我助理問他「你是誰？有什麼事？」，因為他事先完全沒有跟我們通知，然後這位自稱是國安會的人說想要來請假。然後我的助理就問他「有沒有跟召委說過？」他說「沒有」，那我助理非常簡單的就跟他說「拒收」，除非他們先跟我講。","大家都做過召委，今天如果有任何一個機關很簡單就說：我要請假，我不想去……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：我就不爽，寄個email給你，就代表我請假成功……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有、沒有，謝謝主席的說明。"],["主席：這個部分我不接受。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席的說明。因為我們委員不是一天24小時都坐在辦公室嘛，所以各個部門要找委員送公文、說明預算、說明法案，那必然都會先派員，我想剛剛主席所說的國安會不知道是誰，應當是國安會的聯絡人或者是業務單位的誰，我不知道……"],["主席：沒有人知道他是誰。"],["吳委員思瑤：不可能是假冒的……"],["主席：沒有人知道他是誰，而且事先沒有先約就跑進來……"],["吳委員思瑤：好啦，主席，我在說話。"],["主席：進了你的辦公室就說他是國安會的人，重點是沒有人來跟我說……"],["吳委員思瑤：那就是我們……"],["主席：吳委員，如果您當召委……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係，我講完，我講完……"],["主席：有人要跟你講話……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有，我講完，你不用緊張……"],["主席：然後他不告訴你……"],["吳委員思瑤：你不用講，我還沒講完啦！"],["主席：我沒有緊張啦，我是要跟你講狀況……"],["吳委員思瑤：就是說，我們辦公室……"],["主席：你不要在那邊亂帶風向。"],["吳委員思瑤：奇怪了，我在恢復整個事實，譬如說，常常會有文化部的人到辦公室說要遞資料給吳委員、吳思瑤委員，吳委員不在，他們會把資料留給我們，如果吳委員看到資料還有進一步想要理解，我會再打電話給文化部，也許是部長，也許是次長，一般都是這樣，很少說……"],["主席：沒有啦，請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣，你不要在那邊亂講！"],["吳委員思瑤：不然是要……好，沒關係……"],["主席：請假要經過召委同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：召委，因為要請得您的同意不就是要到您的辦公室去跟您請示嗎？"],["主席：他要不要跟我說？他需不需要來跟我講……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，他第一時間吃了閉門羹……"],["主席：到今天此刻為止，國安會沒有任何人來跟我說過。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們可以解釋的是，他吃了閉門羹，吳召委不認同這種方式，他吃了閉門羹，但不代表他沒有試圖要去請假，這第一件事，是您不接受。","第二件事情就是這個收發文的系統，可能要請立法院的……"],["主席：所以我不接受，他們就可以不來，是不是？"],["吳委員思瑤：因為這個收發文的系統非常清楚地載明，司法及法制委員會2025年4月18號16點39分18秒，已經寄了這個請假函文，而且收文方確認；然後在之前的28秒前，2025年4月18號16點38分50秒是寄給吳宗憲召委辦公室，而且收文方確認。","如果召委您這邊說您沒有收到，然後司法及法制委員會也說你們沒有收到，那可能要請立法院的資訊處來查一下這個東西，因為很清楚嘛，這是系統顯示的嘛，難道是系統出錯了嗎？"],["主席：那就這樣……"],["王委員鴻薇：主席！主席，我想……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們先釐清一下有沒有請假。"],["王委員鴻薇：直接處理好嗎？請直接處理。"],["主席：依照吳思瑤委員的意思，以後吳思瑤委員您當召委的時候，任何一個機關不想來，寫個email給你，就表示我請假完成，你就必須聽我的，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你承認你們收到了！"],["主席：我今天擔任召委，我擔任主席……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您承認您收到了嗎？"],["主席：請尊重我的意見！"],["陳委員培瑜：現在就是問清楚……"],["主席：……麻煩來跟我說清楚要請假的原因，如果說今天有任何人想要請假，麻煩跟主席說明請假的原因，並且得到主席的同意，這是立法院一直以來的慣例，我們不接受你寫一個email或一個電子公文進來，我就要照單全收各機關的想法，沒有那種事情！"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有！主席不要緊張！"],["沈委員發惠：……你有沒有收到公文……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們只是在釐清他有沒有寄函文……"],["主席：還有誰要發表意見？"],["吳委員思瑤：我們只是在釐清，我沒有說你接不接受……"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：真的是！等一下！"],["主席：我跟你講，沈委員，不要講那些，你上次罵我，我還……"],["吳委員思瑤：等一下！我剛剛的詢問只是在確認他們有沒有試圖來請假，有電子還有……"],["王委員鴻薇：主席！"],["主席：沒有試圖來請假……"],["吳委員思瑤：您不接受這是另外一個層次……"],["主席：我這邊跟您說清楚，沒有試圖來請假……"],["吳委員思瑤：您不接受這是另外一個層次，那他寄的這個文，還有一個人去你辦公室要送公文，那是事實。"],["王委員鴻薇：主席，她講完我可以講嗎？"],["主席：好，我在這邊跟各位報告，沒有試圖來請假，謝謝各位。","王委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：那登載在這個公文收發系統的是什麼？"],["王委員鴻薇：我們臨時提案的提案文非常清楚，是「未經主席准假」，請大家看第一段末是「未經主席准假，未派員到會列席」；最後我們的決議，第一個也是「國安會未經本會輪值召委同意，拒絕到會接受監督」，所以我想剛才所講的這些事情跟我們的提案無關，跟我們提案無關，所以在這邊直接請求主席來處理臨時提案。"],["主席：是，謝謝。","我再跟各位報告另外一件事情，依據我國的法制、我國的憲法制度，立法委員是監督政府，不是護航政府，我們就依法處理。","我們現在處理臨時提案。","來，莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委，你是召委，我也是召委，講這個話可能要稍微斟酌一下。請坐，我不會針對你啦。","確實，請假要召委來准假，這也是事實，所以你們都很生氣，沒有跟召委請假，你會很生氣嘛，會同仇敵愾嘛，對不對？我告訴你啦，前兩個禮拜我變更議程那一次，請立法院秘書長周萬來來列席報告，他連請假都沒跟我請假，你應該跟我一樣生氣才對，他是一定要來，不是嗎？那你剛剛提到的就是說，其實是他涉及到有沒有請假，那是一個意思表示的問題啦，意思表示本來就第一個有口頭，第二個有書面，我們法律人都很清楚嘛，他確實有請假，但是你沒准啦，應該這樣講嘛，這樣才完整嘛，對不對？就是說國安會的人有去要跟你請假，可是因為你是召委，你認為他必須要親自來跟你請假才可以。"],["主席：沒有、沒有！他沒有來找我請假，我再講一次，他沒有來找我請假。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然啦！我懂你的意思，我也沒有說他找你請假嘛，就是他到辦公室去了，他搞不好去是想要找你，但沒碰到你，這個也沒有負面的評價嘛。所以呢，應該就是回到國安會秘書長到底有沒有這個義務到立法院備詢，國安會秘書長可不可以到立法院備詢？當然可以啊，碰到預算審查的時候，當然要到立法院備詢；有關國家安全大政、政策的部分，他當然也必須要來；但個案的部分，其實就會有爭議。你很生氣，你要譴責他，這個就是行禮如儀而已嘛，我也不會有意見嘛，可是不要去講說沒有人找你請假，或者說在本案屬性不明的時候，你要發動這個譴責案，這當然是一個政治的主張，我也不會有意見。","可是我必須要告訴你的就是說，我們召委常常會碰到這種狀況，該來的，他連請都不請，就你們的好朋友，對不對？這個會有相同標準，但是我也沒有去做處理，他年紀大，開玩笑，年紀那麼大，我一譴責他，萬一怎麼樣，我還背上罵名，我才不要呢！真的，我話還是要講清楚啦！以上。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","我這邊再一次的說明狀況，事實上就是確實有一位自稱國安會的人在事先沒有跟我們聯絡的情況下跑到辦公室去，拿了一個信封說要請假，我們同仁問他有沒有跟我講過，那一位人說沒有，我們同仁也是跟他說，叫他要跟召委講一下，但是從此就完全沒有任何訊息。我想莊委員當召委一定也不可能接受這樣子的作法，如果這樣子的話，是不是請假變成是跟你報備就好了，也不用經過你的同意？這也不是立法院一直以來的作法。","第二個，有關莊委員剛剛提到秘書長的部分，我想今天從頭到尾我們都沒有指定要求秘書長要到，我們是依據以前的慣例，這個慣例甚至是段宜康以前多次的慣例，我後來又再找出好幾次國安會都有派人來，在非法律案以及非預算案的時候都有派人來，我們今天並沒有指定一定要秘書長來，所以大家可以看到我們簽到處的名字部分是空白，其實他們派任何人來我們可以接受，我們只要能夠問到我們的問題就好，其實我今天已經給國安會最大的空間了，我並沒有指定他要來就個案部分或怎麼樣去做報告，以上是我說明的部分。","我覺得我還是必須堅守立法院的尊嚴，任何機關受立法院的邀請，如果你不能來，就要麻煩你請假，而且要經過召委同意，我想一直以來都是這麼做，不管面對國民黨或民進黨，今天就是沒有任何一位國安會的人來跟我請假，所以這就是結論，我們不要在一些用字遣詞上面的文字在那邊玩，我覺得不需要。今天我跟各位報告，就是沒有任何一個人來跟我請假，謝謝。","我們來處理臨時提案。請問在場委員，針對臨時提案……"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，不好意思，可不可以拜託主席再回應一下關於電子公文收發系統的問題？剛剛吳思瑤委員有提出來說，到底是不是需要資訊……"],["王委員鴻薇：已經回應過了！"],["陳委員培瑜：是不是需要資訊處幫忙確認？不然為什麼我們現在手上拿這個表上面顯示的是收文方確認……"],["王委員鴻薇：主席，這跟提案無關！"],["陳委員培瑜：這是我們資訊系統出了問題，還是因為司法及法制委員會的議事人員的認知不一樣？"],["主席：陳委員，因為時間的關係，我想說明清楚，如果今天是報備制，那你們說的都可以，但今天請弄清楚，在立法院是許可，要召委同意，而且沒有任何一個人打一通電話或見到我的面來跟我講今天沒有辦法過來，以上我已經說明的非常清楚。你既然要去搞公文、搞那些，以後所有的機關在貴黨召委的時候，寫個email給你就代表跟你請假了，你不准就給我試試看，是這樣嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：……是說你有沒有說謊……"],["主席：不是！他沒有來找我請假，這要我講幾次大家才聽得懂？沒有任何一個人來找我請假，不要再去拗那些……"],["陳委員培瑜：你有沒有……"],["主席：沒有任何一個來找我請假，這就是事實。我們來處理臨時提案，我沒有時間在這邊跟你們玩文字遊戲。","針對臨時提案的部分，請問在場委員，就臨時提案有無異議？（有）有異議的話，我們採舉手表決。","在表決前，請先清點在場出席委員人數。","（清點人數）"],["主席：在場出席委員11人。","現在進行表決，就今日的臨時提案，贊成者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好，請放下。","反對者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好，請放下。","報告表決結果：在場出席委員11人，贊成者6人，反對者5人，本案贊成者多數，通過。","現在先處理會議時間，上午會議時間持續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接著繼續進行詢答。請陳冠廷委員發言，陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員。","請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}}