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{\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 929.553, \"end\": 929.653, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 929.653, \"end\": 930.013, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 930.013, \"end\": 930.694, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 930.694, \"end\": 930.854, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 930.854, \"end\": 931.174, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 931.174, \"end\": 931.655, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 931.655, \"end\": 931.815, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 931.815, \"end\": 931.935, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 931.935, \"end\": 932.255, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 932.255, \"end\": 932.676, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 932.676, 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00:00:44,367\n謝謝三位三位午安我覺得我剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在當然就個案的部分在立法院盡量不要一直詢我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解但是我剛剛看一下其實大家也都在問個案包括吳思耀委員也在問個案其實我剛剛聽過來我覺得大家在爭執的並不是\n\n3\n00:00:47,328 --> 00:01:08,574\n並不是說像剛剛局長所說的偽造文書是不是犯罪對偽造文書是犯罪沒錯但大家比較在意的是說你是不是公平一致的對待我想說大家一直在強調這個點而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪那我在這邊跟全國人報告偽造文書就是犯罪但是大家在意的是說你不能因為這個人\n\n4\n00:01:10,094 --> 00:01:37,545\n他的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式這是第一個第二個法律上面最講求的就是手段跟目的之間的比喻原則的問題啊那你要達到的目的是什麼搜索跟羈押他的目的是為了保全證據那你要保全什麼證據你將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗啊而不是說你今天構成犯罪我就可以去你家搜索那侵佔一事物也是犯罪啊那罵人一句三字經也是犯罪啊那難道\n\n5\n00:01:38,405 --> 00:01:57,297\n你罵人家一句話那我就要去你家搜索或把你羈押嘛所以不是說犯罪你就可以做這些事情而是說你要去考量的是公平性以及目的手段的比喻原則我想說這個部分我先說清楚而且我從早上聽到現在而且我第二個要講的一個點就是說也是剛剛有人提到的\n\n6\n00:01:58,632 --> 00:02:27,785\n如果說今天我們執行機關的人進去搜索了現場的話其實搜索票上面都展明得非常清楚嘛你今天搜索哪裡搜索的目的是什麼可以扣押哪些還有被搜索的人是誰所以你今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看這是絕對不對的如果今天有人這樣要麻煩那個調查局或者是法務部這邊至少你要跟同仁講不能幹這種事情啊我自己以前帶隊搜索的時候我看到這種我一定會制止啊\n\n7\n00:02:28,385 --> 00:02:54,344\n因為他不是被搜索人那如果照你這樣講的話那今天如果說有人到某一家公司搜索那是不是全公司的人的手機都交出來我看一看好如果說今天我們承辦的人可以去看人家手機那我想請問一下那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面如果沒有的話你既然沒有要扣押他你憑什麼去看他手機的內容\n\n8\n00:02:54,964 --> 00:03:21,645\n如果有這樣的是絕對違法所以我在這邊也是一樣跟國人報告這個是我們正當的合法的訴訟上面的權利法律上面的權利如果今天你在現場你也不是被搜索人在搜索案件也跟你無關如果說今天那個執行者來叫你交出手機或是叫你跟他走你根本就不用理他為什麼要理他就像我們那天釣魚站有人去罷免了現場叫某一個\n\n9\n00:03:22,813 --> 00:03:38,528\n某一個民眾跟他走一樣啊那我覺得最簡單嘛你要嘛就出示G票啊你把他帶走嘛否則你在那邊跟他盧幹什麼他不願意去就不願意去啊你就不應該在現場一直跟他在那邊盧半天啊那你現在當然講個理由說因為他先生說要找他什麼什麼\n\n10\n00:03:39,449 --> 00:03:55,410\n那今天當事人不願意啊就算是夫妻關係先生也不能逼太太去哪裡啊先生也不能說叫調查官去把太太帶回家這都不對啊所以當天這個執行是有問題我當天看那個電視新聞在報導我就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼怎麼可以說到縣長那邊\n\n11\n00:03:56,631 --> 00:04:16,439\n叫當事人跟他回去否則你就出示G票出來甲官G票出來那你民眾就只好跟他走我個人覺得是這樣這是正當的法律程序這是民眾的權利我想除非我講錯那部長跟局長都可以打聯我那我如果沒有講錯再麻煩今天你到現場去拗他民眾跟你走\n\n12\n00:04:17,672 --> 00:04:44,613\n這本來就是違法的你就不能幹這種事情啊更何況說今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說公務員怎麼可以做這種事情那這個也不對啦沒有這跟法務部沒有關係不過我這個高雄跟委員關心這件事情事實上這個高雄地檢署發新聞稿說調查局人員經有出示證件表明身為沒有在執行任何搜索科要具體任何我沒有意見所以這部分所以不問媒體報導的訊息跟事實\n\n13\n00:04:47,014 --> 00:05:04,160\n我沒有意見啦因為確實有媒體報導說他沒有出示證件那這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論我今天的意見在這邊不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件你今天沒有檢察官的G票你就不能叫民眾跟你走嘛我想這是一個最簡單的道理\n\n14\n00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:23,874\n那他這邊說他先那個調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣我覺得那個是兩回事就算你也沒有權利命令你太太去哪裡或叫調查官去把你太太帶去哪裡我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據那部長剛剛講的東西我懂但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊好謝謝部長好那\n\n15\n00:05:24,963 --> 00:05:43,694\n我先請教一下那個廉政署請問一下你們100年到現在就對那個機關安全維護等等但是我們卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的這個共諜那你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊\n\n16\n00:05:45,223 --> 00:06:12,859\n跟委員報告機關安全的公務機密的維護這一塊我們其實就是說各政控單位裡面的人都有在做但是我們主要上面來做它是針對公務機密上面的一個維護來做那麼未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力那基於像是國家的這些機密的部分我們也會盡量說建議就是減少人去接觸那有關於一些安全意識的部分也會去宣導\n\n17\n00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:38,776\n那再來對於一些違常的一些事件我們如果發現的話也會主動的去協助去提供給我們的負責的一個機關主要是那個我想你們都知道哪一件嘛因為主要是吳釗燮以前的助理啦那因為這個案子還在偵辦所以那個細節跟詳情我不去過問我只是說那為什麼一個人到那邊九年卻只有做過一次的安全考核那這個是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎是這樣嗎\n\n18\n00:06:42,117 --> 00:07:01,919\n因為目前上面的這個依照中層查核這個部分它的法源依據是在公務員任用法裡面它對於有些特別的需要查核的這個部分它是經過那些職務上是經過公告以後再請調查局這邊來做那實際上負責查核的部分跟查核的項目是由調查局來做這個處理\n\n19\n00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:24,131\n原則屬沒有碰這一塊好謝謝署長這個部分這幾位大概只有這個何仁傑他當時在出任的時候因為他是在那個植物列表裡面所以他有查核過一次那另外像吳尚宇啊盛楚英這個都沒有在那個植物列表裡面所以他們都沒有經過這個特殊查核也跟機關沒有關係\n\n20\n00:07:28,333 --> 00:07:50,587\n那我在這邊也跟各位說明一下其實我個人行政機關我也待過那今天有媒體出來說這個人只是安排行程的啦不是重要人員我覺得這個是騙人的我們的行程分為公開跟非公開能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的尤其是他會觸碰到非公開的行程\n\n21\n00:07:51,047 --> 00:08:13,993\n所以今天如果有一個人可以到安排到重要的長官的行程但他卻是共諜其實這對長官的安全是傷害非常大所以我覺得有一些媒體很喜歡帶這些風向不是說安排行程就不重要反而我覺得那個是更重要的我們同意委員的說法所以就是說將來我們會希望就是說從他揭秘的\n\n22\n00:08:14,713 --> 00:08:32,603\n的這個條件來去框說哪些是需要查核的對象好謝謝那我再請教法務部跟調查局我想請問一下因為我這樣看了一段時間那個反滲透法我有看到你們的一些報告你說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件2024年起訴了60件那我想請教一下\n\n23\n00:08:39,027 --> 00:09:00,604\n這個數據之外那這一段時間施行以來不起訴幾件還起訴幾件跟牽解幾件你們有沒有去做我這邊沒有資料沒有是不是好那今天沒準備沒關係那我這邊跟各位報告一下就目前呢我手上看到的無罪有十件而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴一審判有罪的是四件\n\n24\n00:09:02,705 --> 00:09:25,191\n那這起訴Eason有罪的這事件將來會不會被維持有罪判決我們也不知道那但是有更多是不起訴或是簽結那我有看到一個報導說台北市有21個人就直接就不起訴那花蓮也有約談22個後來都不起訴還有更多都是直接簽結的那我的意思是這樣啦就是說\n\n25\n00:09:26,923 --> 00:09:50,080\n反滲透法這個法律出來之後其實我對這個法律是有非常多的懷疑在裡面因為我們都知道起訴一個人將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據那您今天如果依照反滲透法他可能受對岸的招待受我們敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的\n\n26\n00:09:50,740 --> 00:10:05,412\n但是這些證據將來甲官要怎麼去跟對岸要難道你行文去國台辦請你提供自己的犯罪證據或請你提供請這一團的人的單據核銷你覺得國台辦會理你嗎其實不可能嘛那所以說將來起訴\n\n27\n00:10:07,774 --> 00:10:23,269\n到法院會判有罪的我覺得我不用去看結論我光是從法律的設計我都覺得應該很不容易除非是在極端罕見的情況下才有可能法官判有罪那到最後反滲透法變成什麼\n\n28\n00:10:24,069 --> 00:10:38,097\n變成是大量老民的工具所以將來我一定會去要所有的數據我們弄清楚這段時間我們傳喚了多少人找了多少民眾來有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問\n\n29\n00:10:39,218 --> 00:11:08,245\n這就像早期人家在查什麼招待旅遊選舉招待旅遊那種一樣一次兩三百人被帶到吊牙站去問就會變成像這個狀況再發生那在以前我們都認為說這搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴變成非常的老民那到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說如果我們今天可以證明說他拿了對岸我們講中共好了他拿了中共的資金然後來台灣做一些違法事\n\n30\n00:11:09,145 --> 00:11:23,299\n你們要起訴他判有罪我都覺得應該而且這些人就給他死不是給他死就是給他從眾處理我都贊成我都支持因為他叛國他對不起我們台灣人但是呢問題是今天的法律設計\n\n31\n00:11:25,083 --> 00:11:45,532\n他很多直接證據將來在法庭上面你根本拿不出來啊所以搞到最後反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾很多人民的做法所以你說這個東西在政治上面的感覺是什麼就是讓很多人都覺得就殺雞儆猴讓大家不敢出來那為什麼我今天會提到這個因為\n\n32\n00:11:46,733 --> 00:12:05,949\n我就認到現在一年多有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情這些事情他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品的交流結果呢他們被搜索被帶回去被扣手機然後大家嚇得要死有非常多是鄉下人他說他被問了之後即使後來一審判無罪不是沒有起訴是一審判無罪\n\n33\n00:12:06,549 --> 00:12:21,024\n結果林李看到他都不敢跟他講話那這個是我們政府對待人民的方式嗎民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家結果呢有這樣子你的雇主來傷害自己頭家的事情嗎\n\n34\n00:12:22,912 --> 00:12:41,312\n因為我最近收到非常多啦然後我還有看到一件的資料因為那件是已經起訴到院方所以後來我有看到月券後的一些資料我發現有一個狀況就是就是他有用騙的耶因為他在筆錄的時候他跟那個老人家說另外一個人已經承認了\n\n35\n00:12:42,333 --> 00:13:05,639\n另外一個人已經承認結果我們看那個筆錄的時間點他在做這個筆錄告訴這個老人家說另外一位人已經承認了那個時間點另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄因為我們筆錄都有時間嘛所以像這種東西怎麼會把二三十年前那種騙的用拗的用恐嚇的那種問筆錄的模式卻放在今天而且對付的是\n\n36\n00:13:06,839 --> 00:13:31,282\n鄉下的老人家這個我其實我不太能接受尤其是我們說司法改革已經這麼久了那怎麼我們還在走回頭路用騙的那難道是因為績效嗎因為什麼嗎更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪所以我覺得這個不應該啦那還有一個是我們做筆錄的時候一個是打字另外一個問嘛\n\n37\n00:13:32,103 --> 00:13:44,703\n後來我們發現還有問到一半有長官進來然後叫當事人要承認然後來指導辦案的其實這個都讓我覺得整個詢問的方式在走回頭路\n\n38\n00:13:47,346 --> 00:14:02,311\n那因為我跟你講齁我現在講的這個個案是我們現在受理但是因為他現在還有一部分的一審還沒有判所以我現在沒有辦法跟你們講個案但是我在案子結束之後如果有人跟我問我會把整個講出來因為我不想干涉任何個案\n\n39\n00:14:04,771 --> 00:14:28,678\n再我還要提一個就是最高檢察署有發新聞稿最高檢察署發新聞稿說有人問到說這個反滲透法這個處理下會不會造成寒蟬消疫很多人民受害他說沒有他說主要是對於行為人或主謀可是我們看到這一段時間所有反滲透法案子是非常多的善良老百姓就被教訓然後被下的鑰匙\n\n40\n00:14:29,238 --> 00:14:35,814\n然後檢察官很多都是跟他說你就認一認還起訴沒事所以導致有很多案子\n\n41\n00:14:37,216 --> 00:14:59,676\n那些民眾只是去旅遊的回來他怕繼續惹事或被關他下的鑰匙後來他就直接好那我認給我還起訴那現在發生了一個問題其實我們自己當過檢察官都很清楚當事人有時候他是他承認然後我們就給他還起訴可是證據到底充不充足懲辦檢察官心裡其實是心知肚明很多時候他甚至因為證據不足他覺得起訴有風險\n\n42\n00:15:00,416 --> 00:15:19,131\n他會跟當事人講說那不然我給你最輕微的緩起訴換你的承認那將來會發生一個問題如果有一些陪著你們所謂主嫌主謀到大陸去旅遊結果回來之後這些去參加旅遊的人都承認都緩起訴了結果後來主嫌因為證據不足判無罪\n\n43\n00:15:20,285 --> 00:15:39,441\n那這樣怎麼辦?那這些被騙去做緩解訴的這些人以後怎麼處理?法務部有沒有思考這個問題?或調局有沒有思考這個問題?報委員,你剛提的這個狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的這個反滲透法它要規範的是受滲透來源只是委託資助而違反選罷法選罷法是其中一個太樣\n\n44\n00:15:40,602 --> 00:15:55,442\n所以基本上這個法條的處罰對象是揪團的人如果以你說去大陸旅遊的話法條要處罰是那個揪團的所以那個參團的人絕對不會是不會是受到起訴或者是不起訴因為我剛有提到了這個案子就是在選舉前的那\n\n45\n00:15:59,066 --> 00:16:14,596\n這個案子因為現在一般這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯對這個案子是選舉前的那這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室在都是密切的聯繫那因為有部分還沒有被判目前被判的一審已經判的都無罪那將來\n\n46\n00:16:15,877 --> 00:16:43,005\n我覺得我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候我案子我就可以公開開來那到時候沒關係我們再來談嘛但是我要跟各位報告一件事情選舉到了總是用這個方式來讓大家晉升我覺得這不對因為我們明明是民主國家我們現在的政黨一直追求民主結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼然後另外就是在問筆錄的我剛剛講到還起訴的部分不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人\n\n47\n00:16:44,622 --> 00:16:56,207\n判無罪就其他反而到場的那些人變成還起訴我想說那就等著看將來會不會這樣因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了沒關係那之後我會\n\n48\n00:16:57,406 --> 00:17:18,911\n等其他人在一審都判完之後我就來跟大家來討論這個案子第二個就是我剛剛提到的訊問時候的方式用騙的用拐的我想跟各位報告如果說除非你認為筆錄你真的敢像以前一樣不錄音不錄影或是像高鴻安或是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷\n\n49\n00:17:20,171 --> 00:17:46,638\n除非像這樣子啦那發生了什麼事我不知道否則如果你全程錄音錄影的話你所有詢問的方式將來都會曝光那不要說到最後別人把這個東西開庭的資料拿出來然後再來跟大家去質疑這個我覺得沒有必要這樣子尤其是我看了最近幾個案子來跟我陳情我覺得很多都很嚴重違反法庭的程序再包括部長\n\n50\n00:17:47,998 --> 00:18:15,963\n這個案子已經起訴了已經不是我在偵查中討論個案你們的北檢的那位檢察官跑去問審慶金的時候竟然可以在筆錄問的被告的詢問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄什麼時候我們對於被告的詢問筆錄還可以括號被告眼神怎麼樣我真的不知道可以這樣做那部長\n\n51\n00:18:17,338 --> 00:18:26,328\n我覺得我講了我也不知道你會不會聽進去但我覺得司法一直信任度一直被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞這不是國家的福氣\n\n52\n00:18:28,224 --> 00:18:47,003\n這個是一個筆錄的記載,這個筆錄的記載本來就是書記官的執行,我當過書記官喔這個本來就是可以記載被告的申請,那是本來就可以記載的被告可以拒答、哭泣等等的我們會記載但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎?我請部長自己先想清楚這個點\n\n53\n00:18:49,685 --> 00:19:07,774\n好啦最後我知道那個蔡委員我認為啦司法是拿來抓犯罪的司法不是政治工具那國安法的目的也是為了針對跟清算中共的對台灣的陣後勢力不是拿來對付無辜的國人請大家記住這一點司法是對付犯罪的\n\n54\n00:19:08,937 --> 00:19:20,780\n國安法是對付外來的例如中共的外來的滲透的勢力所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具謝謝各位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4830\t19603\t有請吳宗憲委員好 謝謝那我們麻煩部長 局長還有署長部長 局長 署長有請委員好\n26438\t44367\t謝謝三位三位午安我覺得我剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在當然就個案的部分在立法院盡量不要一直詢我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解但是我剛剛看一下其實大家也都在問個案包括吳思耀委員也在問個案其實我剛剛聽過來我覺得大家在爭執的並不是\n47328\t68574\t並不是說像剛剛局長所說的偽造文書是不是犯罪對偽造文書是犯罪沒錯但大家比較在意的是說你是不是公平一致的對待我想說大家一直在強調這個點而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪那我在這邊跟全國人報告偽造文書就是犯罪但是大家在意的是說你不能因為這個人\n70094\t97545\t他的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式這是第一個第二個法律上面最講求的就是手段跟目的之間的比喻原則的問題啊那你要達到的目的是什麼搜索跟羈押他的目的是為了保全證據那你要保全什麼證據你將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗啊而不是說你今天構成犯罪我就可以去你家搜索那侵佔一事物也是犯罪啊那罵人一句三字經也是犯罪啊那難道\n98405\t117297\t你罵人家一句話那我就要去你家搜索或把你羈押嘛所以不是說犯罪你就可以做這些事情而是說你要去考量的是公平性以及目的手段的比喻原則我想說這個部分我先說清楚而且我從早上聽到現在而且我第二個要講的一個點就是說也是剛剛有人提到的\n118632\t147785\t如果說今天我們執行機關的人進去搜索了現場的話其實搜索票上面都展明得非常清楚嘛你今天搜索哪裡 搜索的目的是什麼可以扣押哪些 還有被搜索的人是誰所以你今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看這是絕對不對的如果今天有人這樣要麻煩那個調查局或者是法務部這邊至少你要跟同仁講不能幹這種事情啊我自己以前帶隊搜索的時候我看到這種我一定會制止啊\n148385\t174344\t因為他不是被搜索人那如果照你這樣講的話那今天如果說有人到某一家公司搜索那是不是全公司的人的手機都交出來我看一看好 如果說今天我們承辦的人可以去看人家手機那我想請問一下那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面如果沒有的話你既然沒有要扣押他你憑什麼去看他手機的內容\n174964\t201645\t如果有這樣的是絕對違法所以我在這邊也是一樣跟國人報告這個是我們正當的合法的訴訟上面的權利法律上面的權利如果今天你在現場你也不是被搜索人在搜索案件也跟你無關如果說今天那個執行者來叫你交出手機或是叫你跟他走你根本就不用理他 為什麼要理他就像我們那天釣魚站有人去罷免了現場叫某一個\n202813\t218528\t某一個民眾跟他走一樣啊那我覺得最簡單嘛你要嘛就出示G票啊你把他帶走嘛否則你在那邊跟他盧幹什麼他不願意去就不願意去啊你就不應該在現場一直跟他在那邊盧半天啊那你現在當然講個理由說因為他先生說要找他什麼什麼\n219449\t235410\t那今天當事人不願意啊就算是夫妻關係先生也不能逼太太去哪裡啊先生也不能說叫調查官去把太太帶回家這都不對啊所以當天這個執行是有問題我當天看那個電視新聞在報導我就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼怎麼可以說到縣長那邊\n236631\t256439\t叫當事人跟他回去否則你就出示G票出來甲官G票出來那你民眾就只好跟他走我個人覺得是這樣這是正當的法律程序這是民眾的權利我想除非我講錯那部長跟局長都可以打聯我那我如果沒有講錯再麻煩今天你到現場去拗他民眾跟你走\n257672\t284613\t這本來就是違法的你就不能幹這種事情啊更何況說今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說公務員怎麼可以做這種事情那這個也不對啦沒有這跟法務部沒有關係不過我這個高雄跟委員關心這件事情事實上這個高雄地檢署發新聞稿說調查局人員經有出示證件表明身為沒有在執行任何搜索科要具體任何我沒有意見所以這部分所以不問媒體報導的訊息跟事實\n287014\t304160\t我沒有意見啦因為確實有媒體報導說他沒有出示證件那這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論我今天的意見在這邊不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件你今天沒有檢察官的G票你就不能叫民眾跟你走嘛我想這是一個最簡單的道理\n304600\t323874\t那他這邊說他先那個調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣我覺得那個是兩回事就算你也沒有權利命令你太太去哪裡或叫調查官去把你太太帶去哪裡我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據那部長剛剛講的東西我懂但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊好 謝謝部長好 那\n324963\t343694\t我先請教一下那個廉政署請問一下你們100年到現在就對那個機關安全維護等等但是我們卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的這個共諜那你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊\n345223\t372859\t跟委員報告機關安全的公務機密的維護這一塊我們其實就是說各政控單位裡面的人都有在做但是我們主要上面來做它是針對公務機密上面的一個維護來做那麼未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力那基於像是國家的這些機密的部分我們也會盡量說建議就是減少人去接觸那有關於一些安全意識的部分也會去宣導\n373519\t398776\t那再來對於一些違常的一些事件我們如果發現的話也會主動的去協助去提供給我們的負責的一個機關主要是那個我想你們都知道哪一件嘛因為主要是吳釗燮以前的助理啦那因為這個案子還在偵辦所以那個細節跟詳情我不去過問我只是說那為什麼一個人到那邊九年卻只有做過一次的安全考核那這個是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎是這樣嗎\n402117\t421919\t因為目前上面的這個依照中層查核這個部分它的法源依據是在公務員任用法裡面它對於有些特別的需要查核的這個部分它是經過那些職務上是經過公告以後再請調查局這邊來做那實際上負責查核的部分跟查核的項目是由調查局來做這個處理\n423300\t444131\t原則屬沒有碰這一塊好謝謝署長這個部分這幾位大概只有這個何仁傑他當時在出任的時候因為他是在那個植物列表裡面所以他有查核過一次那另外像吳尚宇啊 盛楚英這個都沒有在那個植物列表裡面所以他們都沒有經過這個特殊查核也跟機關沒有關係\n448333\t470587\t那我在這邊也跟各位說明一下其實我個人 行政機關我也待過那今天有媒體出來說 這個人只是安排行程的啦 不是重要人員我覺得這個是騙人的我們的行程分為公開跟非公開能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的 尤其是他會觸碰到非公開的行程\n471047\t493993\t所以今天如果有一個人可以到安排到重要的長官的行程但他卻是共諜其實這對長官的安全是傷害非常大所以我覺得有一些媒體很喜歡帶這些風向不是說安排行程就不重要反而我覺得那個是更重要的我們同意委員的說法所以就是說將來我們會希望就是說從他揭秘的\n494713\t512603\t的這個條件來去框說哪些是需要查核的對象好 謝謝那我再請教法務部跟調查局我想請問一下因為我這樣看了一段時間那個反滲透法我有看到你們的一些報告你說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件2024年起訴了60件那我想請教一下\n519027\t540604\t這個數據之外 那這一段時間施行以來不起訴幾件 還起訴幾件 跟牽解幾件你們有沒有去做我這邊沒有資料沒有是不是 好 那今天沒準備沒關係 那我這邊跟各位報告一下就目前呢 我手上看到的無罪有十件而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴一審判有罪的是四件\n542705\t565191\t那這起訴Eason有罪的這事件將來會不會被維持有罪判決我們也不知道那但是有更多是不起訴或是簽結那我有看到一個報導說台北市有21個人就直接就不起訴那花蓮也有約談22個後來都不起訴還有更多都是直接簽結的那我的意思是這樣啦就是說\n566923\t590080\t反滲透法這個法律出來之後其實我對這個法律是有非常多的懷疑在裡面因為我們都知道起訴一個人將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據那您今天如果依照反滲透法他可能受對岸的招待受我們敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的\n590740\t605412\t但是這些證據將來甲官要怎麼去跟對岸要難道你行文去國台辦請你提供自己的犯罪證據或請你提供請這一團的人的單據核銷你覺得國台辦會理你嗎其實不可能嘛那所以說將來起訴\n607774\t623269\t到法院會判有罪的我覺得我不用去看結論我光是從法律的設計我都覺得應該很不容易除非是在極端罕見的情況下才有可能法官判有罪那到最後反滲透法變成什麼\n624069\t638097\t變成是大量老民的工具所以將來我一定會去要所有的數據我們弄清楚這段時間我們傳喚了多少人找了多少民眾來有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問\n639218\t668245\t這就像早期人家在查什麼招待旅遊選舉招待旅遊那種一樣一次兩三百人被帶到吊牙站去問就會變成像這個狀況再發生那在以前我們都認為說這搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴變成非常的老民那到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說如果我們今天可以證明說他拿了對岸我們講中共好了他拿了中共的資金然後來台灣做一些違法事\n669145\t683299\t你們要起訴他 判有罪 我都覺得應該 而且這些人就給他死不是給他死 就是給他從眾處理我都贊成 我都支持 因為他叛國 他對不起我們台灣人但是呢 問題是今天的法律設計\n685083\t705532\t他很多直接證據將來在法庭上面你根本拿不出來啊所以搞到最後反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾很多人民的做法所以你說這個東西在政治上面的感覺是什麼就是讓很多人都覺得就殺雞儆猴讓大家不敢出來那為什麼我今天會提到這個 因為\n706733\t725949\t我就認到現在一年多有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情這些事情他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品的交流結果呢他們被搜索被帶回去被扣手機然後大家嚇得要死有非常多是鄉下人他說他被問了之後即使後來一審判無罪不是沒有起訴是一審判無罪\n726549\t741024\t結果林李看到他都不敢跟他講話那這個是我們政府對待人民的方式嗎民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家結果呢有這樣子你的雇主來傷害自己頭家的事情嗎\n742912\t761312\t因為我最近收到非常多啦然後我還有看到一件的資料因為那件是已經起訴到院方所以後來我有看到月券後的一些資料我發現有一個狀況就是就是他有用騙的耶因為他在筆錄的時候他跟那個老人家說另外一個人已經承認了\n762333\t785639\t另外一個人已經承認結果我們看那個筆錄的時間點他在做這個筆錄告訴這個老人家說另外一位人已經承認了那個時間點另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄因為我們筆錄都有時間嘛所以像這種東西怎麼會把二三十年前那種騙的用拗的用恐嚇的那種問筆錄的模式卻放在今天而且對付的是\n786839\t811282\t鄉下的老人家 這個我其實我不太能接受尤其是我們說司法改革已經這麼久了那怎麼我們還在走回頭路用騙的 那難道是因為績效嗎 因為什麼嗎更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪所以我覺得這個不應該啦 那還有一個是我們做筆錄的時候 一個是打字 另外一個問嘛\n812103\t824703\t後來我們發現還有問到一半有長官進來然後叫當事人要承認然後來指導辦案的其實這個都讓我覺得整個詢問的方式在走回頭路\n827346\t842311\t那因為我跟你講齁我現在講的這個個案是我們現在受理但是因為他現在還有一部分的一審還沒有判所以我現在沒有辦法跟你們講個案但是我在案子結束之後如果有人跟我問我會把整個講出來因為我不想干涉任何個案\n844771\t868678\t再我還要提一個就是最高檢察署有發新聞稿最高檢察署發新聞稿說有人問到說這個反滲透法這個處理下會不會造成寒蟬消疫很多人民受害他說沒有他說主要是對於行為人或主謀可是我們看到這一段時間所有反滲透法案子是非常多的善良老百姓就被教訓然後被下的鑰匙\n869238\t875814\t然後檢察官很多都是跟他說你就認一認還起訴沒事所以導致有很多案子\n877216\t899676\t那些民眾只是去旅遊的回來他怕繼續惹事或被關他下的鑰匙後來他就直接好那我認給我還起訴那現在發生了一個問題其實我們自己當過檢察官都很清楚當事人有時候他是他承認然後我們就給他還起訴可是證據到底充不充足懲辦檢察官心裡其實是心知肚明很多時候他甚至因為證據不足他覺得起訴有風險\n900416\t919131\t他會跟當事人講說那不然我給你最輕微的緩起訴 換你的承認那將來會發生一個問題如果有一些陪著你們所謂主嫌 主謀到大陸去旅遊結果回來之後這些去參加旅遊的人都承認都緩起訴了結果後來主嫌因為證據不足判無罪\n920285\t939441\t那這樣怎麼辦?那這些被騙去做緩解訴的這些人以後怎麼處理?法務部有沒有思考這個問題?或調局有沒有思考這個問題?報委員,你剛提的這個狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的這個反滲透法它要規範的是受滲透來源只是委託資助而違反選罷法選罷法是其中一個太樣\n940602\t955442\t所以基本上這個法條的處罰對象是揪團的人如果以你說去大陸旅遊的話法條要處罰是那個揪團的所以那個參團的人絕對不會是不會是受到起訴或者是不起訴因為我剛有提到了這個案子就是在選舉前的那\n959066\t974596\t這個案子因為現在一般這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯對 這個案子是選舉前的那這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室在都是密切的聯繫那因為有部分還沒有被判目前被判的一審已經判的都無罪那將來\n975877\t1003005\t我覺得我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候我案子我就可以公開開來那到時候沒關係我們再來談嘛但是我要跟各位報告一件事情選舉到了總是用這個方式來讓大家晉升我覺得這不對因為我們明明是民主國家我們現在的政黨一直追求民主結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼然後另外就是在問筆錄的我剛剛講到還起訴的部分不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人\n1004622\t1016207\t判無罪就其他反而到場的那些人變成還起訴我想說那就等著看將來會不會這樣因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了沒關係那之後我會\n1017406\t1038911\t等其他人在一審都判完之後我就來跟大家來討論這個案子第二個就是我剛剛提到的訊問時候的方式用騙的用拐的我想跟各位報告如果說除非你認為筆錄你真的敢像以前一樣不錄音不錄影或是像高鴻安或是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷\n1040171\t1066638\t除非像這樣子啦那發生了什麼事我不知道否則如果你全程錄音錄影的話你所有詢問的方式將來都會曝光那不要說到最後別人把這個東西開庭的資料拿出來然後再來跟大家去質疑這個我覺得沒有必要這樣子尤其是我看了最近幾個案子來跟我陳情我覺得很多都很嚴重違反法庭的程序再包括部長\n1067998\t1095963\t這個案子已經起訴了已經不是我在偵查中討論個案你們的北檢的那位檢察官跑去問審慶金的時候竟然可以在筆錄問的被告的詢問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄什麼時候我們對於被告的詢問筆錄還可以括號被告眼神怎麼樣我真的不知道可以這樣做那 部長\n1097338\t1106328\t我覺得我講了我也不知道你會不會聽進去但我覺得司法一直信任度一直被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞這不是國家的福氣\n1108224\t1127003\t這個是一個筆錄的記載,這個筆錄的記載本來就是書記官的執行,我當過書記官喔這個本來就是可以記載被告的申請,那是本來就可以記載的被告可以拒答、哭泣等等的我們會記載但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎?我請部長自己先想清楚這個點\n1129685\t1147774\t好啦 最後我知道那個蔡委員我認為啦 司法是拿來抓犯罪的司法不是政治工具那國安法的目的也是為了針對跟清算中共的對台灣的陣後勢力不是拿來對付無辜的國人請大家記住這一點司法是對付犯罪的\n1148937\t1160780\t國安法是對付外來的例如中共的外來的滲透的勢力所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具謝謝各位\n","txt":"有請吳宗憲委員好 謝謝那我們麻煩部長 局長還有署長部長 局長 署長有請委員好\n謝謝三位三位午安我覺得我剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在當然就個案的部分在立法院盡量不要一直詢我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解但是我剛剛看一下其實大家也都在問個案包括吳思耀委員也在問個案其實我剛剛聽過來我覺得大家在爭執的並不是\n並不是說像剛剛局長所說的偽造文書是不是犯罪對偽造文書是犯罪沒錯但大家比較在意的是說你是不是公平一致的對待我想說大家一直在強調這個點而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪那我在這邊跟全國人報告偽造文書就是犯罪但是大家在意的是說你不能因為這個人\n他的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式這是第一個第二個法律上面最講求的就是手段跟目的之間的比喻原則的問題啊那你要達到的目的是什麼搜索跟羈押他的目的是為了保全證據那你要保全什麼證據你將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗啊而不是說你今天構成犯罪我就可以去你家搜索那侵佔一事物也是犯罪啊那罵人一句三字經也是犯罪啊那難道\n你罵人家一句話那我就要去你家搜索或把你羈押嘛所以不是說犯罪你就可以做這些事情而是說你要去考量的是公平性以及目的手段的比喻原則我想說這個部分我先說清楚而且我從早上聽到現在而且我第二個要講的一個點就是說也是剛剛有人提到的\n如果說今天我們執行機關的人進去搜索了現場的話其實搜索票上面都展明得非常清楚嘛你今天搜索哪裡 搜索的目的是什麼可以扣押哪些 還有被搜索的人是誰所以你今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看這是絕對不對的如果今天有人這樣要麻煩那個調查局或者是法務部這邊至少你要跟同仁講不能幹這種事情啊我自己以前帶隊搜索的時候我看到這種我一定會制止啊\n因為他不是被搜索人那如果照你這樣講的話那今天如果說有人到某一家公司搜索那是不是全公司的人的手機都交出來我看一看好 如果說今天我們承辦的人可以去看人家手機那我想請問一下那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面如果沒有的話你既然沒有要扣押他你憑什麼去看他手機的內容\n如果有這樣的是絕對違法所以我在這邊也是一樣跟國人報告這個是我們正當的合法的訴訟上面的權利法律上面的權利如果今天你在現場你也不是被搜索人在搜索案件也跟你無關如果說今天那個執行者來叫你交出手機或是叫你跟他走你根本就不用理他 為什麼要理他就像我們那天釣魚站有人去罷免了現場叫某一個\n某一個民眾跟他走一樣啊那我覺得最簡單嘛你要嘛就出示G票啊你把他帶走嘛否則你在那邊跟他盧幹什麼他不願意去就不願意去啊你就不應該在現場一直跟他在那邊盧半天啊那你現在當然講個理由說因為他先生說要找他什麼什麼\n那今天當事人不願意啊就算是夫妻關係先生也不能逼太太去哪裡啊先生也不能說叫調查官去把太太帶回家這都不對啊所以當天這個執行是有問題我當天看那個電視新聞在報導我就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼怎麼可以說到縣長那邊\n叫當事人跟他回去否則你就出示G票出來甲官G票出來那你民眾就只好跟他走我個人覺得是這樣這是正當的法律程序這是民眾的權利我想除非我講錯那部長跟局長都可以打聯我那我如果沒有講錯再麻煩今天你到現場去拗他民眾跟你走\n這本來就是違法的你就不能幹這種事情啊更何況說今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說公務員怎麼可以做這種事情那這個也不對啦沒有這跟法務部沒有關係不過我這個高雄跟委員關心這件事情事實上這個高雄地檢署發新聞稿說調查局人員經有出示證件表明身為沒有在執行任何搜索科要具體任何我沒有意見所以這部分所以不問媒體報導的訊息跟事實\n我沒有意見啦因為確實有媒體報導說他沒有出示證件那這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論我今天的意見在這邊不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件你今天沒有檢察官的G票你就不能叫民眾跟你走嘛我想這是一個最簡單的道理\n那他這邊說他先那個調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣我覺得那個是兩回事就算你也沒有權利命令你太太去哪裡或叫調查官去把你太太帶去哪裡我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據那部長剛剛講的東西我懂但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊好 謝謝部長好 那\n我先請教一下那個廉政署請問一下你們100年到現在就對那個機關安全維護等等但是我們卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的這個共諜那你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊\n跟委員報告機關安全的公務機密的維護這一塊我們其實就是說各政控單位裡面的人都有在做但是我們主要上面來做它是針對公務機密上面的一個維護來做那麼未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力那基於像是國家的這些機密的部分我們也會盡量說建議就是減少人去接觸那有關於一些安全意識的部分也會去宣導\n那再來對於一些違常的一些事件我們如果發現的話也會主動的去協助去提供給我們的負責的一個機關主要是那個我想你們都知道哪一件嘛因為主要是吳釗燮以前的助理啦那因為這個案子還在偵辦所以那個細節跟詳情我不去過問我只是說那為什麼一個人到那邊九年卻只有做過一次的安全考核那這個是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎是這樣嗎\n因為目前上面的這個依照中層查核這個部分它的法源依據是在公務員任用法裡面它對於有些特別的需要查核的這個部分它是經過那些職務上是經過公告以後再請調查局這邊來做那實際上負責查核的部分跟查核的項目是由調查局來做這個處理\n原則屬沒有碰這一塊好謝謝署長這個部分這幾位大概只有這個何仁傑他當時在出任的時候因為他是在那個植物列表裡面所以他有查核過一次那另外像吳尚宇啊 盛楚英這個都沒有在那個植物列表裡面所以他們都沒有經過這個特殊查核也跟機關沒有關係\n那我在這邊也跟各位說明一下其實我個人 行政機關我也待過那今天有媒體出來說 這個人只是安排行程的啦 不是重要人員我覺得這個是騙人的我們的行程分為公開跟非公開能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的 尤其是他會觸碰到非公開的行程\n所以今天如果有一個人可以到安排到重要的長官的行程但他卻是共諜其實這對長官的安全是傷害非常大所以我覺得有一些媒體很喜歡帶這些風向不是說安排行程就不重要反而我覺得那個是更重要的我們同意委員的說法所以就是說將來我們會希望就是說從他揭秘的\n的這個條件來去框說哪些是需要查核的對象好 謝謝那我再請教法務部跟調查局我想請問一下因為我這樣看了一段時間那個反滲透法我有看到你們的一些報告你說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件2024年起訴了60件那我想請教一下\n這個數據之外 那這一段時間施行以來不起訴幾件 還起訴幾件 跟牽解幾件你們有沒有去做我這邊沒有資料沒有是不是 好 那今天沒準備沒關係 那我這邊跟各位報告一下就目前呢 我手上看到的無罪有十件而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴一審判有罪的是四件\n那這起訴Eason有罪的這事件將來會不會被維持有罪判決我們也不知道那但是有更多是不起訴或是簽結那我有看到一個報導說台北市有21個人就直接就不起訴那花蓮也有約談22個後來都不起訴還有更多都是直接簽結的那我的意思是這樣啦就是說\n反滲透法這個法律出來之後其實我對這個法律是有非常多的懷疑在裡面因為我們都知道起訴一個人將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據那您今天如果依照反滲透法他可能受對岸的招待受我們敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的\n但是這些證據將來甲官要怎麼去跟對岸要難道你行文去國台辦請你提供自己的犯罪證據或請你提供請這一團的人的單據核銷你覺得國台辦會理你嗎其實不可能嘛那所以說將來起訴\n到法院會判有罪的我覺得我不用去看結論我光是從法律的設計我都覺得應該很不容易除非是在極端罕見的情況下才有可能法官判有罪那到最後反滲透法變成什麼\n變成是大量老民的工具所以將來我一定會去要所有的數據我們弄清楚這段時間我們傳喚了多少人找了多少民眾來有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問\n這就像早期人家在查什麼招待旅遊選舉招待旅遊那種一樣一次兩三百人被帶到吊牙站去問就會變成像這個狀況再發生那在以前我們都認為說這搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴變成非常的老民那到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說如果我們今天可以證明說他拿了對岸我們講中共好了他拿了中共的資金然後來台灣做一些違法事\n你們要起訴他 判有罪 我都覺得應該 而且這些人就給他死不是給他死 就是給他從眾處理我都贊成 我都支持 因為他叛國 他對不起我們台灣人但是呢 問題是今天的法律設計\n他很多直接證據將來在法庭上面你根本拿不出來啊所以搞到最後反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾很多人民的做法所以你說這個東西在政治上面的感覺是什麼就是讓很多人都覺得就殺雞儆猴讓大家不敢出來那為什麼我今天會提到這個 因為\n我就認到現在一年多有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情這些事情他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品的交流結果呢他們被搜索被帶回去被扣手機然後大家嚇得要死有非常多是鄉下人他說他被問了之後即使後來一審判無罪不是沒有起訴是一審判無罪\n結果林李看到他都不敢跟他講話那這個是我們政府對待人民的方式嗎民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家結果呢有這樣子你的雇主來傷害自己頭家的事情嗎\n因為我最近收到非常多啦然後我還有看到一件的資料因為那件是已經起訴到院方所以後來我有看到月券後的一些資料我發現有一個狀況就是就是他有用騙的耶因為他在筆錄的時候他跟那個老人家說另外一個人已經承認了\n另外一個人已經承認結果我們看那個筆錄的時間點他在做這個筆錄告訴這個老人家說另外一位人已經承認了那個時間點另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄因為我們筆錄都有時間嘛所以像這種東西怎麼會把二三十年前那種騙的用拗的用恐嚇的那種問筆錄的模式卻放在今天而且對付的是\n鄉下的老人家 這個我其實我不太能接受尤其是我們說司法改革已經這麼久了那怎麼我們還在走回頭路用騙的 那難道是因為績效嗎 因為什麼嗎更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪所以我覺得這個不應該啦 那還有一個是我們做筆錄的時候 一個是打字 另外一個問嘛\n後來我們發現還有問到一半有長官進來然後叫當事人要承認然後來指導辦案的其實這個都讓我覺得整個詢問的方式在走回頭路\n那因為我跟你講齁我現在講的這個個案是我們現在受理但是因為他現在還有一部分的一審還沒有判所以我現在沒有辦法跟你們講個案但是我在案子結束之後如果有人跟我問我會把整個講出來因為我不想干涉任何個案\n再我還要提一個就是最高檢察署有發新聞稿最高檢察署發新聞稿說有人問到說這個反滲透法這個處理下會不會造成寒蟬消疫很多人民受害他說沒有他說主要是對於行為人或主謀可是我們看到這一段時間所有反滲透法案子是非常多的善良老百姓就被教訓然後被下的鑰匙\n然後檢察官很多都是跟他說你就認一認還起訴沒事所以導致有很多案子\n那些民眾只是去旅遊的回來他怕繼續惹事或被關他下的鑰匙後來他就直接好那我認給我還起訴那現在發生了一個問題其實我們自己當過檢察官都很清楚當事人有時候他是他承認然後我們就給他還起訴可是證據到底充不充足懲辦檢察官心裡其實是心知肚明很多時候他甚至因為證據不足他覺得起訴有風險\n他會跟當事人講說那不然我給你最輕微的緩起訴 換你的承認那將來會發生一個問題如果有一些陪著你們所謂主嫌 主謀到大陸去旅遊結果回來之後這些去參加旅遊的人都承認都緩起訴了結果後來主嫌因為證據不足判無罪\n那這樣怎麼辦?那這些被騙去做緩解訴的這些人以後怎麼處理?法務部有沒有思考這個問題?或調局有沒有思考這個問題?報委員,你剛提的這個狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的這個反滲透法它要規範的是受滲透來源只是委託資助而違反選罷法選罷法是其中一個太樣\n所以基本上這個法條的處罰對象是揪團的人如果以你說去大陸旅遊的話法條要處罰是那個揪團的所以那個參團的人絕對不會是不會是受到起訴或者是不起訴因為我剛有提到了這個案子就是在選舉前的那\n這個案子因為現在一般這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯對 這個案子是選舉前的那這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室在都是密切的聯繫那因為有部分還沒有被判目前被判的一審已經判的都無罪那將來\n我覺得我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候我案子我就可以公開開來那到時候沒關係我們再來談嘛但是我要跟各位報告一件事情選舉到了總是用這個方式來讓大家晉升我覺得這不對因為我們明明是民主國家我們現在的政黨一直追求民主結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼然後另外就是在問筆錄的我剛剛講到還起訴的部分不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人\n判無罪就其他反而到場的那些人變成還起訴我想說那就等著看將來會不會這樣因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了沒關係那之後我會\n等其他人在一審都判完之後我就來跟大家來討論這個案子第二個就是我剛剛提到的訊問時候的方式用騙的用拐的我想跟各位報告如果說除非你認為筆錄你真的敢像以前一樣不錄音不錄影或是像高鴻安或是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷\n除非像這樣子啦那發生了什麼事我不知道否則如果你全程錄音錄影的話你所有詢問的方式將來都會曝光那不要說到最後別人把這個東西開庭的資料拿出來然後再來跟大家去質疑這個我覺得沒有必要這樣子尤其是我看了最近幾個案子來跟我陳情我覺得很多都很嚴重違反法庭的程序再包括部長\n這個案子已經起訴了已經不是我在偵查中討論個案你們的北檢的那位檢察官跑去問審慶金的時候竟然可以在筆錄問的被告的詢問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄什麼時候我們對於被告的詢問筆錄還可以括號被告眼神怎麼樣我真的不知道可以這樣做那 部長\n我覺得我講了我也不知道你會不會聽進去但我覺得司法一直信任度一直被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞這不是國家的福氣\n這個是一個筆錄的記載,這個筆錄的記載本來就是書記官的執行,我當過書記官喔這個本來就是可以記載被告的申請,那是本來就可以記載的被告可以拒答、哭泣等等的我們會記載但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎?我請部長自己先想清楚這個點\n好啦 最後我知道那個蔡委員我認為啦 司法是拿來抓犯罪的司法不是政治工具那國安法的目的也是為了針對跟清算中共的對台灣的陣後勢力不是拿來對付無辜的國人請大家記住這一點司法是對付犯罪的\n國安法是對付外來的例如中共的外來的滲透的勢力所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具謝謝各位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.830 --> 00:19.603\n有請吳宗憲委員好謝謝那我們麻煩部長局長還有署長部長局長署長有請委員好\n\n00:26.438 --> 00:44.367\n謝謝三位三位午安我覺得我剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在當然就個案的部分在立法院盡量不要一直詢我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解但是我剛剛看一下其實大家也都在問個案包括吳思耀委員也在問個案其實我剛剛聽過來我覺得大家在爭執的並不是\n\n00:47.328 --> 01:08.574\n並不是說像剛剛局長所說的偽造文書是不是犯罪對偽造文書是犯罪沒錯但大家比較在意的是說你是不是公平一致的對待我想說大家一直在強調這個點而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪那我在這邊跟全國人報告偽造文書就是犯罪但是大家在意的是說你不能因為這個人\n\n01:10.094 --> 01:37.545\n他的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式這是第一個第二個法律上面最講求的就是手段跟目的之間的比喻原則的問題啊那你要達到的目的是什麼搜索跟羈押他的目的是為了保全證據那你要保全什麼證據你將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗啊而不是說你今天構成犯罪我就可以去你家搜索那侵佔一事物也是犯罪啊那罵人一句三字經也是犯罪啊那難道\n\n01:38.405 --> 01:57.297\n你罵人家一句話那我就要去你家搜索或把你羈押嘛所以不是說犯罪你就可以做這些事情而是說你要去考量的是公平性以及目的手段的比喻原則我想說這個部分我先說清楚而且我從早上聽到現在而且我第二個要講的一個點就是說也是剛剛有人提到的\n\n01:58.632 --> 02:27.785\n如果說今天我們執行機關的人進去搜索了現場的話其實搜索票上面都展明得非常清楚嘛你今天搜索哪裡搜索的目的是什麼可以扣押哪些還有被搜索的人是誰所以你今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看這是絕對不對的如果今天有人這樣要麻煩那個調查局或者是法務部這邊至少你要跟同仁講不能幹這種事情啊我自己以前帶隊搜索的時候我看到這種我一定會制止啊\n\n02:28.385 --> 02:54.344\n因為他不是被搜索人那如果照你這樣講的話那今天如果說有人到某一家公司搜索那是不是全公司的人的手機都交出來我看一看好如果說今天我們承辦的人可以去看人家手機那我想請問一下那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面如果沒有的話你既然沒有要扣押他你憑什麼去看他手機的內容\n\n02:54.964 --> 03:21.645\n如果有這樣的是絕對違法所以我在這邊也是一樣跟國人報告這個是我們正當的合法的訴訟上面的權利法律上面的權利如果今天你在現場你也不是被搜索人在搜索案件也跟你無關如果說今天那個執行者來叫你交出手機或是叫你跟他走你根本就不用理他為什麼要理他就像我們那天釣魚站有人去罷免了現場叫某一個\n\n03:22.813 --> 03:38.528\n某一個民眾跟他走一樣啊那我覺得最簡單嘛你要嘛就出示G票啊你把他帶走嘛否則你在那邊跟他盧幹什麼他不願意去就不願意去啊你就不應該在現場一直跟他在那邊盧半天啊那你現在當然講個理由說因為他先生說要找他什麼什麼\n\n03:39.449 --> 03:55.410\n那今天當事人不願意啊就算是夫妻關係先生也不能逼太太去哪裡啊先生也不能說叫調查官去把太太帶回家這都不對啊所以當天這個執行是有問題我當天看那個電視新聞在報導我就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼怎麼可以說到縣長那邊\n\n03:56.631 --> 04:16.439\n叫當事人跟他回去否則你就出示G票出來甲官G票出來那你民眾就只好跟他走我個人覺得是這樣這是正當的法律程序這是民眾的權利我想除非我講錯那部長跟局長都可以打聯我那我如果沒有講錯再麻煩今天你到現場去拗他民眾跟你走\n\n04:17.672 --> 04:44.613\n這本來就是違法的你就不能幹這種事情啊更何況說今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說公務員怎麼可以做這種事情那這個也不對啦沒有這跟法務部沒有關係不過我這個高雄跟委員關心這件事情事實上這個高雄地檢署發新聞稿說調查局人員經有出示證件表明身為沒有在執行任何搜索科要具體任何我沒有意見所以這部分所以不問媒體報導的訊息跟事實\n\n04:47.014 --> 05:04.160\n我沒有意見啦因為確實有媒體報導說他沒有出示證件那這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論我今天的意見在這邊不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件你今天沒有檢察官的G票你就不能叫民眾跟你走嘛我想這是一個最簡單的道理\n\n05:04.600 --> 05:23.874\n那他這邊說他先那個調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣我覺得那個是兩回事就算你也沒有權利命令你太太去哪裡或叫調查官去把你太太帶去哪裡我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據那部長剛剛講的東西我懂但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊好謝謝部長好那\n\n05:24.963 --> 05:43.694\n我先請教一下那個廉政署請問一下你們100年到現在就對那個機關安全維護等等但是我們卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的這個共諜那你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊\n\n05:45.223 --> 06:12.859\n跟委員報告機關安全的公務機密的維護這一塊我們其實就是說各政控單位裡面的人都有在做但是我們主要上面來做它是針對公務機密上面的一個維護來做那麼未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力那基於像是國家的這些機密的部分我們也會盡量說建議就是減少人去接觸那有關於一些安全意識的部分也會去宣導\n\n06:13.519 --> 06:38.776\n那再來對於一些違常的一些事件我們如果發現的話也會主動的去協助去提供給我們的負責的一個機關主要是那個我想你們都知道哪一件嘛因為主要是吳釗燮以前的助理啦那因為這個案子還在偵辦所以那個細節跟詳情我不去過問我只是說那為什麼一個人到那邊九年卻只有做過一次的安全考核那這個是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎是這樣嗎\n\n06:42.117 --> 07:01.919\n因為目前上面的這個依照中層查核這個部分它的法源依據是在公務員任用法裡面它對於有些特別的需要查核的這個部分它是經過那些職務上是經過公告以後再請調查局這邊來做那實際上負責查核的部分跟查核的項目是由調查局來做這個處理\n\n07:03.300 --> 07:24.131\n原則屬沒有碰這一塊好謝謝署長這個部分這幾位大概只有這個何仁傑他當時在出任的時候因為他是在那個植物列表裡面所以他有查核過一次那另外像吳尚宇啊盛楚英這個都沒有在那個植物列表裡面所以他們都沒有經過這個特殊查核也跟機關沒有關係\n\n07:28.333 --> 07:50.587\n那我在這邊也跟各位說明一下其實我個人行政機關我也待過那今天有媒體出來說這個人只是安排行程的啦不是重要人員我覺得這個是騙人的我們的行程分為公開跟非公開能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的尤其是他會觸碰到非公開的行程\n\n07:51.047 --> 08:13.993\n所以今天如果有一個人可以到安排到重要的長官的行程但他卻是共諜其實這對長官的安全是傷害非常大所以我覺得有一些媒體很喜歡帶這些風向不是說安排行程就不重要反而我覺得那個是更重要的我們同意委員的說法所以就是說將來我們會希望就是說從他揭秘的\n\n08:14.713 --> 08:32.603\n的這個條件來去框說哪些是需要查核的對象好謝謝那我再請教法務部跟調查局我想請問一下因為我這樣看了一段時間那個反滲透法我有看到你們的一些報告你說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件2024年起訴了60件那我想請教一下\n\n08:39.027 --> 09:00.604\n這個數據之外那這一段時間施行以來不起訴幾件還起訴幾件跟牽解幾件你們有沒有去做我這邊沒有資料沒有是不是好那今天沒準備沒關係那我這邊跟各位報告一下就目前呢我手上看到的無罪有十件而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴一審判有罪的是四件\n\n09:02.705 --> 09:25.191\n那這起訴Eason有罪的這事件將來會不會被維持有罪判決我們也不知道那但是有更多是不起訴或是簽結那我有看到一個報導說台北市有21個人就直接就不起訴那花蓮也有約談22個後來都不起訴還有更多都是直接簽結的那我的意思是這樣啦就是說\n\n09:26.923 --> 09:50.080\n反滲透法這個法律出來之後其實我對這個法律是有非常多的懷疑在裡面因為我們都知道起訴一個人將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據那您今天如果依照反滲透法他可能受對岸的招待受我們敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的\n\n09:50.740 --> 10:05.412\n但是這些證據將來甲官要怎麼去跟對岸要難道你行文去國台辦請你提供自己的犯罪證據或請你提供請這一團的人的單據核銷你覺得國台辦會理你嗎其實不可能嘛那所以說將來起訴\n\n10:07.774 --> 10:23.269\n到法院會判有罪的我覺得我不用去看結論我光是從法律的設計我都覺得應該很不容易除非是在極端罕見的情況下才有可能法官判有罪那到最後反滲透法變成什麼\n\n10:24.069 --> 10:38.097\n變成是大量老民的工具所以將來我一定會去要所有的數據我們弄清楚這段時間我們傳喚了多少人找了多少民眾來有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問\n\n10:39.218 --> 11:08.245\n這就像早期人家在查什麼招待旅遊選舉招待旅遊那種一樣一次兩三百人被帶到吊牙站去問就會變成像這個狀況再發生那在以前我們都認為說這搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴變成非常的老民那到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說如果我們今天可以證明說他拿了對岸我們講中共好了他拿了中共的資金然後來台灣做一些違法事\n\n11:09.145 --> 11:23.299\n你們要起訴他判有罪我都覺得應該而且這些人就給他死不是給他死就是給他從眾處理我都贊成我都支持因為他叛國他對不起我們台灣人但是呢問題是今天的法律設計\n\n11:25.083 --> 11:45.532\n他很多直接證據將來在法庭上面你根本拿不出來啊所以搞到最後反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾很多人民的做法所以你說這個東西在政治上面的感覺是什麼就是讓很多人都覺得就殺雞儆猴讓大家不敢出來那為什麼我今天會提到這個因為\n\n11:46.733 --> 12:05.949\n我就認到現在一年多有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情這些事情他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品的交流結果呢他們被搜索被帶回去被扣手機然後大家嚇得要死有非常多是鄉下人他說他被問了之後即使後來一審判無罪不是沒有起訴是一審判無罪\n\n12:06.549 --> 12:21.024\n結果林李看到他都不敢跟他講話那這個是我們政府對待人民的方式嗎民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家結果呢有這樣子你的雇主來傷害自己頭家的事情嗎\n\n12:22.912 --> 12:41.312\n因為我最近收到非常多啦然後我還有看到一件的資料因為那件是已經起訴到院方所以後來我有看到月券後的一些資料我發現有一個狀況就是就是他有用騙的耶因為他在筆錄的時候他跟那個老人家說另外一個人已經承認了\n\n12:42.333 --> 13:05.639\n另外一個人已經承認結果我們看那個筆錄的時間點他在做這個筆錄告訴這個老人家說另外一位人已經承認了那個時間點另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄因為我們筆錄都有時間嘛所以像這種東西怎麼會把二三十年前那種騙的用拗的用恐嚇的那種問筆錄的模式卻放在今天而且對付的是\n\n13:06.839 --> 13:31.282\n鄉下的老人家這個我其實我不太能接受尤其是我們說司法改革已經這麼久了那怎麼我們還在走回頭路用騙的那難道是因為績效嗎因為什麼嗎更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪所以我覺得這個不應該啦那還有一個是我們做筆錄的時候一個是打字另外一個問嘛\n\n13:32.103 --> 13:44.703\n後來我們發現還有問到一半有長官進來然後叫當事人要承認然後來指導辦案的其實這個都讓我覺得整個詢問的方式在走回頭路\n\n13:47.346 --> 14:02.311\n那因為我跟你講齁我現在講的這個個案是我們現在受理但是因為他現在還有一部分的一審還沒有判所以我現在沒有辦法跟你們講個案但是我在案子結束之後如果有人跟我問我會把整個講出來因為我不想干涉任何個案\n\n14:04.771 --> 14:28.678\n再我還要提一個就是最高檢察署有發新聞稿最高檢察署發新聞稿說有人問到說這個反滲透法這個處理下會不會造成寒蟬消疫很多人民受害他說沒有他說主要是對於行為人或主謀可是我們看到這一段時間所有反滲透法案子是非常多的善良老百姓就被教訓然後被下的鑰匙\n\n14:29.238 --> 14:35.814\n然後檢察官很多都是跟他說你就認一認還起訴沒事所以導致有很多案子\n\n14:37.216 --> 14:59.676\n那些民眾只是去旅遊的回來他怕繼續惹事或被關他下的鑰匙後來他就直接好那我認給我還起訴那現在發生了一個問題其實我們自己當過檢察官都很清楚當事人有時候他是他承認然後我們就給他還起訴可是證據到底充不充足懲辦檢察官心裡其實是心知肚明很多時候他甚至因為證據不足他覺得起訴有風險\n\n15:00.416 --> 15:19.131\n他會跟當事人講說那不然我給你最輕微的緩起訴換你的承認那將來會發生一個問題如果有一些陪著你們所謂主嫌主謀到大陸去旅遊結果回來之後這些去參加旅遊的人都承認都緩起訴了結果後來主嫌因為證據不足判無罪\n\n15:20.285 --> 15:39.441\n那這樣怎麼辦?那這些被騙去做緩解訴的這些人以後怎麼處理?法務部有沒有思考這個問題?或調局有沒有思考這個問題?報委員,你剛提的這個狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的這個反滲透法它要規範的是受滲透來源只是委託資助而違反選罷法選罷法是其中一個太樣\n\n15:40.602 --> 15:55.442\n所以基本上這個法條的處罰對象是揪團的人如果以你說去大陸旅遊的話法條要處罰是那個揪團的所以那個參團的人絕對不會是不會是受到起訴或者是不起訴因為我剛有提到了這個案子就是在選舉前的那\n\n15:59.066 --> 16:14.596\n這個案子因為現在一般這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯對這個案子是選舉前的那這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室在都是密切的聯繫那因為有部分還沒有被判目前被判的一審已經判的都無罪那將來\n\n16:15.877 --> 16:43.005\n我覺得我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候我案子我就可以公開開來那到時候沒關係我們再來談嘛但是我要跟各位報告一件事情選舉到了總是用這個方式來讓大家晉升我覺得這不對因為我們明明是民主國家我們現在的政黨一直追求民主結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼然後另外就是在問筆錄的我剛剛講到還起訴的部分不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人\n\n16:44.622 --> 16:56.207\n判無罪就其他反而到場的那些人變成還起訴我想說那就等著看將來會不會這樣因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了沒關係那之後我會\n\n16:57.406 --> 17:18.911\n等其他人在一審都判完之後我就來跟大家來討論這個案子第二個就是我剛剛提到的訊問時候的方式用騙的用拐的我想跟各位報告如果說除非你認為筆錄你真的敢像以前一樣不錄音不錄影或是像高鴻安或是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷\n\n17:20.171 --> 17:46.638\n除非像這樣子啦那發生了什麼事我不知道否則如果你全程錄音錄影的話你所有詢問的方式將來都會曝光那不要說到最後別人把這個東西開庭的資料拿出來然後再來跟大家去質疑這個我覺得沒有必要這樣子尤其是我看了最近幾個案子來跟我陳情我覺得很多都很嚴重違反法庭的程序再包括部長\n\n17:47.998 --> 18:15.963\n這個案子已經起訴了已經不是我在偵查中討論個案你們的北檢的那位檢察官跑去問審慶金的時候竟然可以在筆錄問的被告的詢問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄什麼時候我們對於被告的詢問筆錄還可以括號被告眼神怎麼樣我真的不知道可以這樣做那部長\n\n18:17.338 --> 18:26.328\n我覺得我講了我也不知道你會不會聽進去但我覺得司法一直信任度一直被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞這不是國家的福氣\n\n18:28.224 --> 18:47.003\n這個是一個筆錄的記載,這個筆錄的記載本來就是書記官的執行,我當過書記官喔這個本來就是可以記載被告的申請,那是本來就可以記載的被告可以拒答、哭泣等等的我們會記載但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎?我請部長自己先想清楚這個點\n\n18:49.685 --> 19:07.774\n好啦最後我知道那個蔡委員我認為啦司法是拿來抓犯罪的司法不是政治工具那國安法的目的也是為了針對跟清算中共的對台灣的陣後勢力不是拿來對付無辜的國人請大家記住這一點司法是對付犯罪的\n\n19:08.937 --> 19:20.780\n國安法是對付外來的例如中共的外來的滲透的勢力所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具謝謝各位\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.83,"end":19.603,"text":"有請吳宗憲委員好 謝謝那我們麻煩部長 局長還有署長部長 局長 署長有請委員好"},{"start":26.438,"end":44.367,"text":"謝謝三位三位午安我覺得我剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在當然就個案的部分在立法院盡量不要一直詢我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解但是我剛剛看一下其實大家也都在問個案包括吳思耀委員也在問個案其實我剛剛聽過來我覺得大家在爭執的並不是"},{"start":47.328,"end":68.574,"text":"並不是說像剛剛局長所說的偽造文書是不是犯罪對偽造文書是犯罪沒錯但大家比較在意的是說你是不是公平一致的對待我想說大家一直在強調這個點而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪那我在這邊跟全國人報告偽造文書就是犯罪但是大家在意的是說你不能因為這個人"},{"start":70.094,"end":97.545,"text":"他的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式這是第一個第二個法律上面最講求的就是手段跟目的之間的比喻原則的問題啊那你要達到的目的是什麼搜索跟羈押他的目的是為了保全證據那你要保全什麼證據你將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗啊而不是說你今天構成犯罪我就可以去你家搜索那侵佔一事物也是犯罪啊那罵人一句三字經也是犯罪啊那難道"},{"start":98.405,"end":117.297,"text":"你罵人家一句話那我就要去你家搜索或把你羈押嘛所以不是說犯罪你就可以做這些事情而是說你要去考量的是公平性以及目的手段的比喻原則我想說這個部分我先說清楚而且我從早上聽到現在而且我第二個要講的一個點就是說也是剛剛有人提到的"},{"start":118.632,"end":147.785,"text":"如果說今天我們執行機關的人進去搜索了現場的話其實搜索票上面都展明得非常清楚嘛你今天搜索哪裡 搜索的目的是什麼可以扣押哪些 還有被搜索的人是誰所以你今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看這是絕對不對的如果今天有人這樣要麻煩那個調查局或者是法務部這邊至少你要跟同仁講不能幹這種事情啊我自己以前帶隊搜索的時候我看到這種我一定會制止啊"},{"start":148.385,"end":174.344,"text":"因為他不是被搜索人那如果照你這樣講的話那今天如果說有人到某一家公司搜索那是不是全公司的人的手機都交出來我看一看好 如果說今天我們承辦的人可以去看人家手機那我想請問一下那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面如果沒有的話你既然沒有要扣押他你憑什麼去看他手機的內容"},{"start":174.964,"end":201.645,"text":"如果有這樣的是絕對違法所以我在這邊也是一樣跟國人報告這個是我們正當的合法的訴訟上面的權利法律上面的權利如果今天你在現場你也不是被搜索人在搜索案件也跟你無關如果說今天那個執行者來叫你交出手機或是叫你跟他走你根本就不用理他 為什麼要理他就像我們那天釣魚站有人去罷免了現場叫某一個"},{"start":202.813,"end":218.528,"text":"某一個民眾跟他走一樣啊那我覺得最簡單嘛你要嘛就出示G票啊你把他帶走嘛否則你在那邊跟他盧幹什麼他不願意去就不願意去啊你就不應該在現場一直跟他在那邊盧半天啊那你現在當然講個理由說因為他先生說要找他什麼什麼"},{"start":219.449,"end":235.41,"text":"那今天當事人不願意啊就算是夫妻關係先生也不能逼太太去哪裡啊先生也不能說叫調查官去把太太帶回家這都不對啊所以當天這個執行是有問題我當天看那個電視新聞在報導我就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼怎麼可以說到縣長那邊"},{"start":236.631,"end":256.439,"text":"叫當事人跟他回去否則你就出示G票出來甲官G票出來那你民眾就只好跟他走我個人覺得是這樣這是正當的法律程序這是民眾的權利我想除非我講錯那部長跟局長都可以打聯我那我如果沒有講錯再麻煩今天你到現場去拗他民眾跟你走"},{"start":257.672,"end":284.613,"text":"這本來就是違法的你就不能幹這種事情啊更何況說今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說公務員怎麼可以做這種事情那這個也不對啦沒有這跟法務部沒有關係不過我這個高雄跟委員關心這件事情事實上這個高雄地檢署發新聞稿說調查局人員經有出示證件表明身為沒有在執行任何搜索科要具體任何我沒有意見所以這部分所以不問媒體報導的訊息跟事實"},{"start":287.014,"end":304.16,"text":"我沒有意見啦因為確實有媒體報導說他沒有出示證件那這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論我今天的意見在這邊不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件你今天沒有檢察官的G票你就不能叫民眾跟你走嘛我想這是一個最簡單的道理"},{"start":304.6,"end":323.874,"text":"那他這邊說他先那個調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣我覺得那個是兩回事就算你也沒有權利命令你太太去哪裡或叫調查官去把你太太帶去哪裡我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據那部長剛剛講的東西我懂但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊好 謝謝部長好 那"},{"start":324.963,"end":343.694,"text":"我先請教一下那個廉政署請問一下你們100年到現在就對那個機關安全維護等等但是我們卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的這個共諜那你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊"},{"start":345.223,"end":372.859,"text":"跟委員報告機關安全的公務機密的維護這一塊我們其實就是說各政控單位裡面的人都有在做但是我們主要上面來做它是針對公務機密上面的一個維護來做那麼未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力那基於像是國家的這些機密的部分我們也會盡量說建議就是減少人去接觸那有關於一些安全意識的部分也會去宣導"},{"start":373.519,"end":398.776,"text":"那再來對於一些違常的一些事件我們如果發現的話也會主動的去協助去提供給我們的負責的一個機關主要是那個我想你們都知道哪一件嘛因為主要是吳釗燮以前的助理啦那因為這個案子還在偵辦所以那個細節跟詳情我不去過問我只是說那為什麼一個人到那邊九年卻只有做過一次的安全考核那這個是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":402.117,"end":421.919,"text":"因為目前上面的這個依照中層查核這個部分它的法源依據是在公務員任用法裡面它對於有些特別的需要查核的這個部分它是經過那些職務上是經過公告以後再請調查局這邊來做那實際上負責查核的部分跟查核的項目是由調查局來做這個處理"},{"start":423.3,"end":444.131,"text":"原則屬沒有碰這一塊好謝謝署長這個部分這幾位大概只有這個何仁傑他當時在出任的時候因為他是在那個植物列表裡面所以他有查核過一次那另外像吳尚宇啊 盛楚英這個都沒有在那個植物列表裡面所以他們都沒有經過這個特殊查核也跟機關沒有關係"},{"start":448.333,"end":470.587,"text":"那我在這邊也跟各位說明一下其實我個人 行政機關我也待過那今天有媒體出來說 這個人只是安排行程的啦 不是重要人員我覺得這個是騙人的我們的行程分為公開跟非公開能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的 尤其是他會觸碰到非公開的行程"},{"start":471.047,"end":493.993,"text":"所以今天如果有一個人可以到安排到重要的長官的行程但他卻是共諜其實這對長官的安全是傷害非常大所以我覺得有一些媒體很喜歡帶這些風向不是說安排行程就不重要反而我覺得那個是更重要的我們同意委員的說法所以就是說將來我們會希望就是說從他揭秘的"},{"start":494.713,"end":512.603,"text":"的這個條件來去框說哪些是需要查核的對象好 謝謝那我再請教法務部跟調查局我想請問一下因為我這樣看了一段時間那個反滲透法我有看到你們的一些報告你說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件2024年起訴了60件那我想請教一下"},{"start":519.027,"end":540.604,"text":"這個數據之外 那這一段時間施行以來不起訴幾件 還起訴幾件 跟牽解幾件你們有沒有去做我這邊沒有資料沒有是不是 好 那今天沒準備沒關係 那我這邊跟各位報告一下就目前呢 我手上看到的無罪有十件而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴一審判有罪的是四件"},{"start":542.705,"end":565.191,"text":"那這起訴Eason有罪的這事件將來會不會被維持有罪判決我們也不知道那但是有更多是不起訴或是簽結那我有看到一個報導說台北市有21個人就直接就不起訴那花蓮也有約談22個後來都不起訴還有更多都是直接簽結的那我的意思是這樣啦就是說"},{"start":566.923,"end":590.08,"text":"反滲透法這個法律出來之後其實我對這個法律是有非常多的懷疑在裡面因為我們都知道起訴一個人將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據那您今天如果依照反滲透法他可能受對岸的招待受我們敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的"},{"start":590.74,"end":605.412,"text":"但是這些證據將來甲官要怎麼去跟對岸要難道你行文去國台辦請你提供自己的犯罪證據或請你提供請這一團的人的單據核銷你覺得國台辦會理你嗎其實不可能嘛那所以說將來起訴"},{"start":607.774,"end":623.269,"text":"到法院會判有罪的我覺得我不用去看結論我光是從法律的設計我都覺得應該很不容易除非是在極端罕見的情況下才有可能法官判有罪那到最後反滲透法變成什麼"},{"start":624.069,"end":638.097,"text":"變成是大量老民的工具所以將來我一定會去要所有的數據我們弄清楚這段時間我們傳喚了多少人找了多少民眾來有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問"},{"start":639.218,"end":668.245,"text":"這就像早期人家在查什麼招待旅遊選舉招待旅遊那種一樣一次兩三百人被帶到吊牙站去問就會變成像這個狀況再發生那在以前我們都認為說這搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴變成非常的老民那到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說如果我們今天可以證明說他拿了對岸我們講中共好了他拿了中共的資金然後來台灣做一些違法事"},{"start":669.145,"end":683.299,"text":"你們要起訴他 判有罪 我都覺得應該 而且這些人就給他死不是給他死 就是給他從眾處理我都贊成 我都支持 因為他叛國 他對不起我們台灣人但是呢 問題是今天的法律設計"},{"start":685.083,"end":705.532,"text":"他很多直接證據將來在法庭上面你根本拿不出來啊所以搞到最後反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾很多人民的做法所以你說這個東西在政治上面的感覺是什麼就是讓很多人都覺得就殺雞儆猴讓大家不敢出來那為什麼我今天會提到這個 因為"},{"start":706.733,"end":725.949,"text":"我就認到現在一年多有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情這些事情他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品的交流結果呢他們被搜索被帶回去被扣手機然後大家嚇得要死有非常多是鄉下人他說他被問了之後即使後來一審判無罪不是沒有起訴是一審判無罪"},{"start":726.549,"end":741.024,"text":"結果林李看到他都不敢跟他講話那這個是我們政府對待人民的方式嗎民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家結果呢有這樣子你的雇主來傷害自己頭家的事情嗎"},{"start":742.912,"end":761.312,"text":"因為我最近收到非常多啦然後我還有看到一件的資料因為那件是已經起訴到院方所以後來我有看到月券後的一些資料我發現有一個狀況就是就是他有用騙的耶因為他在筆錄的時候他跟那個老人家說另外一個人已經承認了"},{"start":762.333,"end":785.639,"text":"另外一個人已經承認結果我們看那個筆錄的時間點他在做這個筆錄告訴這個老人家說另外一位人已經承認了那個時間點另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄因為我們筆錄都有時間嘛所以像這種東西怎麼會把二三十年前那種騙的用拗的用恐嚇的那種問筆錄的模式卻放在今天而且對付的是"},{"start":786.839,"end":811.282,"text":"鄉下的老人家 這個我其實我不太能接受尤其是我們說司法改革已經這麼久了那怎麼我們還在走回頭路用騙的 那難道是因為績效嗎 因為什麼嗎更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪所以我覺得這個不應該啦 那還有一個是我們做筆錄的時候 一個是打字 另外一個問嘛"},{"start":812.103,"end":824.703,"text":"後來我們發現還有問到一半有長官進來然後叫當事人要承認然後來指導辦案的其實這個都讓我覺得整個詢問的方式在走回頭路"},{"start":827.346,"end":842.311,"text":"那因為我跟你講齁我現在講的這個個案是我們現在受理但是因為他現在還有一部分的一審還沒有判所以我現在沒有辦法跟你們講個案但是我在案子結束之後如果有人跟我問我會把整個講出來因為我不想干涉任何個案"},{"start":844.771,"end":868.678,"text":"再我還要提一個就是最高檢察署有發新聞稿最高檢察署發新聞稿說有人問到說這個反滲透法這個處理下會不會造成寒蟬消疫很多人民受害他說沒有他說主要是對於行為人或主謀可是我們看到這一段時間所有反滲透法案子是非常多的善良老百姓就被教訓然後被下的鑰匙"},{"start":869.238,"end":875.814,"text":"然後檢察官很多都是跟他說你就認一認還起訴沒事所以導致有很多案子"},{"start":877.216,"end":899.676,"text":"那些民眾只是去旅遊的回來他怕繼續惹事或被關他下的鑰匙後來他就直接好那我認給我還起訴那現在發生了一個問題其實我們自己當過檢察官都很清楚當事人有時候他是他承認然後我們就給他還起訴可是證據到底充不充足懲辦檢察官心裡其實是心知肚明很多時候他甚至因為證據不足他覺得起訴有風險"},{"start":900.416,"end":919.131,"text":"他會跟當事人講說那不然我給你最輕微的緩起訴 換你的承認那將來會發生一個問題如果有一些陪著你們所謂主嫌 主謀到大陸去旅遊結果回來之後這些去參加旅遊的人都承認都緩起訴了結果後來主嫌因為證據不足判無罪"},{"start":920.285,"end":939.441,"text":"那這樣怎麼辦?那這些被騙去做緩解訴的這些人以後怎麼處理?法務部有沒有思考這個問題?或調局有沒有思考這個問題?報委員,你剛提的這個狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的這個反滲透法它要規範的是受滲透來源只是委託資助而違反選罷法選罷法是其中一個太樣"},{"start":940.602,"end":955.442,"text":"所以基本上這個法條的處罰對象是揪團的人如果以你說去大陸旅遊的話法條要處罰是那個揪團的所以那個參團的人絕對不會是不會是受到起訴或者是不起訴因為我剛有提到了這個案子就是在選舉前的那"},{"start":959.066,"end":974.596,"text":"這個案子因為現在一般這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯對 這個案子是選舉前的那這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室在都是密切的聯繫那因為有部分還沒有被判目前被判的一審已經判的都無罪那將來"},{"start":975.877,"end":1003.005,"text":"我覺得我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候我案子我就可以公開開來那到時候沒關係我們再來談嘛但是我要跟各位報告一件事情選舉到了總是用這個方式來讓大家晉升我覺得這不對因為我們明明是民主國家我們現在的政黨一直追求民主結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼然後另外就是在問筆錄的我剛剛講到還起訴的部分不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人"},{"start":1004.622,"end":1016.207,"text":"判無罪就其他反而到場的那些人變成還起訴我想說那就等著看將來會不會這樣因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了沒關係那之後我會"},{"start":1017.406,"end":1038.911,"text":"等其他人在一審都判完之後我就來跟大家來討論這個案子第二個就是我剛剛提到的訊問時候的方式用騙的用拐的我想跟各位報告如果說除非你認為筆錄你真的敢像以前一樣不錄音不錄影或是像高鴻安或是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷"},{"start":1040.171,"end":1066.638,"text":"除非像這樣子啦那發生了什麼事我不知道否則如果你全程錄音錄影的話你所有詢問的方式將來都會曝光那不要說到最後別人把這個東西開庭的資料拿出來然後再來跟大家去質疑這個我覺得沒有必要這樣子尤其是我看了最近幾個案子來跟我陳情我覺得很多都很嚴重違反法庭的程序再包括部長"},{"start":1067.998,"end":1095.963,"text":"這個案子已經起訴了已經不是我在偵查中討論個案你們的北檢的那位檢察官跑去問審慶金的時候竟然可以在筆錄問的被告的詢問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄什麼時候我們對於被告的詢問筆錄還可以括號被告眼神怎麼樣我真的不知道可以這樣做那 部長"},{"start":1097.338,"end":1106.328,"text":"我覺得我講了我也不知道你會不會聽進去但我覺得司法一直信任度一直被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞這不是國家的福氣"},{"start":1108.224,"end":1127.003,"text":"這個是一個筆錄的記載,這個筆錄的記載本來就是書記官的執行,我當過書記官喔這個本來就是可以記載被告的申請,那是本來就可以記載的被告可以拒答、哭泣等等的我們會記載但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎?我請部長自己先想清楚這個點"},{"start":1129.685,"end":1147.774,"text":"好啦 最後我知道那個蔡委員我認為啦 司法是拿來抓犯罪的司法不是政治工具那國安法的目的也是為了針對跟清算中共的對台灣的陣後勢力不是拿來對付無辜的國人請大家記住這一點司法是對付犯罪的"},{"start":1148.937,"end":1160.78,"text":"國安法是對付外來的例如中共的外來的滲透的勢力所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具謝謝各位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1434,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時39分）好，謝謝。麻煩部長、局長還有署長。"],["主席：部長、局長、署長，有請。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝三位，三位午安。剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在，當然就個案的部分在立法院儘量不要去質詢，我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解，但是我剛剛看一下，其實大家也都在問個案，包括吳思瑤委員也在問個案。我剛剛聽過來覺得大家在爭執的，並不是像剛剛局長所說的「偽造文書是不是犯罪？」。對，偽造文書是犯罪沒錯，但大家比較在意的是，你是不是公平一致的對待，我想大家一直在強調這個點，而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪。我在這邊跟全國人報告，偽造文書就是犯罪。但是大家在意的是，不能因為這個人的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式，這是第一個。","第二個，法律上最講求的就是手段跟目的之間比例原則的問題，你要達到的目的是什麼？搜索跟羈押的目的是為了保全證據，那你要保全什麼證據將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗，而不是你今天構成犯罪，我就可以去你家搜索。侵占遺失物也是犯罪、罵人一句三字經也是犯罪，難道你罵人家一句話，我就要去你家搜索，把你羈押嗎？所以不是「犯罪」，你就可以做這些事情，而你要去考量的是公平性及目的手段的比例原則，這個部分我先說清楚，因為從早上聽到現在。","第二個要講的點，也是剛剛有人提到的，如果今天執行機關的人進去搜索現場，其實搜索票上面都載明非常清楚，今天搜索哪裡、搜索目的是什麼、可以扣押哪些東西，還有被搜索的人是誰，所以今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看，這是絕對不對的，如果今天有人這樣做，要麻煩調查局或法務部至少要跟同仁講，不能做這種事情。我自己以前帶隊搜索時，如果看到這種情況我一定會制止，因為他不是被搜索人。照你這樣講的話，今天如果到某一家公司搜索，是不是全公司同仁的手機都交出來看一看？如果今天承辦人可以去看人家手機，我想請問那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面？如果沒有，既然沒有要扣押它，又憑什麼去看他手機的內容，如果有這樣的事情是絕對違法。","所以我在這邊也跟國人報告，這是正當的、合法的訴訟之法律上的權力，如果今天你在現場、你也不是被搜索人、搜索案件也跟你無關，執行者叫你交出手機或叫你跟他走，你根本就不用理會，為什麼要理他？就像那天調查站有人去罷免的現場叫某一個民眾跟他走一樣，我覺得最簡單就是出示拘票把他帶走，否則在那邊跟他糾纏做什麼？他不願意去就不用去，更不應該在現場一直跟他糾纏半天，現在當然講一個理由說因為他先生說要找他……今天是當事人不願意，就算夫妻關係，先生也不能逼太太去哪裡、先生也不能叫調查官把太太帶回家，這都不對，所以這個執行是有問題的。我當天看新聞在報導就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼，怎麼可以到現場糾纏、叫當事人跟他回去，否則檢察官就出示拘票，民眾就只好跟他走，我個人覺得是這樣。這是正當的法律程序、是民眾的權利，除非我講錯，部長跟局長都可以打臉我，如果我沒有講錯，今天你到現場拗民眾跟你走，這本來就是違法的，你就是不能做這種事情，更何況今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說，公務員怎麼可以做這種事情，這個也不對。","沒有，這跟法務部沒有關係。"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛剛委員關心高雄的這件事件，事實上高雄地檢署發新聞稿表示，調查局人員經出示證件表明身分，沒有再執行任何搜索、扣押、拘提……"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以部分媒體報導的訊息跟事實不符，這個部分高雄地檢署……"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有意見，因為確實有媒體報導他沒有出示證件，這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論。我今天的意見是，不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件，今天沒有檢察官的拘票就不能叫民眾跟你走，這是一個最簡單的道理。報導是調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣，我覺得那是兩回事，就像你也沒有權力命令你太太去哪裡，或叫調查官把你太太帶去哪裡，我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據。部長剛剛講的東西我懂，但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊。好，謝謝部長。","我先請教廉政署，請問你們100年到現在對機關安全維護等等，但是卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的共諜，你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，有關機關安全跟公務機密維護的這一塊，其實各政風單位的人都有在做，但我們主要做的是針對維護公務上的機密，未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力；至於像是國家機密的部分，我們也會儘量減少人員的接觸；關於安全意識的部分也會去宣導；再來，對於一些違常的事件，我們如果發現，也會主動地協助提供資料給負責的機關去偵辦。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想你們都知道哪一件，主要是吳釗燮以前的助理，因為案子還在偵辦，所以細節跟詳情我不去過問，我只想知道為什麼一個人到那邊9年卻只有做過一次的安全考核，是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["馮署長成：因為目前忠誠查核的法源依據在公務員任用法，對於某些特別需要查核的部分，那些職務是經過公告以後再請調查局來做，實際上負責查核跟查核的項目是由調查局來做，廉政署沒有碰這一塊。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝署長，謝謝署長說明得非常清楚。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，這幾位大概只有何仁傑當時初任是在職務列表裡面，所以他有查核過一次，另外，像吳尚雨、盛礎纓都沒有在職務列表裡面，所以他們都沒有經過特殊查核，也跟機關沒有關係。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝局長。也跟各位說明，其實我個人在行政機關也待過，今天有媒體出來說，這個人只是安排行程的、不是重要人員。我覺得是騙人的，行程分為公開跟非公開，能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的，尤其是會觸碰到非公開的行程，所以如果有一個人可以安排到重要長官的行程，但他卻是共諜，其實對長官的安全傷害非常大，所以我覺得有一些媒體很奇怪，喜歡帶風向，不是安排行程的人就不重要，反而我覺得是更重要的。"],["陳局長白立：是，同意委員的說法，所以將來希望從接密的條件去匡哪些是需要查核的對象。"],["吳委員宗憲：好、好、好，謝謝。","我再請教法務部跟調查局，因為我看了一段時間，我有看到你們反滲透法的報告，你們說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件，2024年起訴60件，我想請教這些數據之外，在這一段時間施行以來，不起訴幾件？緩起訴幾件？跟簽結幾件？你們有沒有去做統計？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我這邊沒有資料。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有是不是？好，今天沒準備沒關係，我跟各位報告，目前我手上看到的，無罪有10件，而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴；一審判有罪的是4件，在起訴一審有罪的這4件當中，將來會不會被維持有罪判決也不知道，但有更多是不起訴或是簽結，我看到一個報導，說臺北市有21個人直接不起訴；花蓮也有約談22個，後來也都不起訴，還有更多都是直接簽結。","我的意思是，反滲透法出來之後，其實我對這部法律有非常多的懷疑，因為起訴後將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據，今天如果依照反滲透法，受敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的，這些證據將來檢察官要怎麼去跟對岸要？難道你行文去國臺辦請他們提供自己的犯罪證據，或請他們提供這一團的核銷單據？你覺得國臺辦會理你嗎？其實不可能，所以將來起訴到法院會判有罪的，我覺得我不用看結論，光是從法律的設計都覺得應該很不容易，除非是在極端罕見情況下法官才有可能判有罪，到最後反滲透法變成什麼？變成是擾民的工具，將來我一定會去要所有的數據，弄清楚這段時間傳喚多少人？找多少民眾來？有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問？這就像早期在查選舉招待旅遊一樣，一次兩、三百人被帶到調查站去問，就會變成像這樣的狀況再發生。","在以前我們都認為搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴，非常擾民，到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說，如果今天可以證明他拿中共的資金來臺灣做一些違法事，你們要起訴他判有罪，我覺得應該從重處理，我都贊成、我都支持，因為他叛國，他對不起臺灣人。但是問題是今天的法律設計，很多直接證據將來在法庭上面根本拿不出來，所以搞到最後，反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾人民的做法，反滲透法在政治上感覺像是殺雞儆猴，讓大家不敢出來。","為什麼我今天會提到這個？因為我就任到現在一年多，有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情，他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品交流，結果他們被搜索、被帶回去、被扣手機，大家嚇得要死，有非常多是鄉下人，被問之後，即使後來一審判無罪，不是沒有起訴，是一審判無罪，結果鄰里看到他都不敢跟他講話，這是政府對待人民的方式嗎？民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家，結果反而傷害自己的頭家，我最近收到非常多陳情。","我還有看到一件資料，因為是已經起訴到院方，我有看到閱卷後的資料，我發現一個狀況，有用騙的，在做筆錄的時候，跟老人家說另外一個人已經承認，結果看筆錄的時間點，他告訴老人家另外一位已經承認的時間點，另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄，因為筆錄都有時間，所以怎麼會把二、三十年前那種用騙的、用拗的、用恐嚇的問筆錄模式放在今天，而且對付的是鄉下的老人家？其實我不太能接受，尤其司法改革已經這麼久，怎麼還在走回頭路用騙的？難道是為了績效嗎？因為什麼嗎？更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪，我覺得不應該。還有做筆錄的時候，一個是打字，另外一個問，後來發現還有問到一半，有長官進來指導辦案，叫當事人要承認，讓我覺得訊問的方式在走回頭路。我講的是現在受理的個案，但是還有一部分一審還沒有判，現在沒有辦法跟你們講，如果在案子結束之後，如果有人問我，我會整個講出來，因為我不想干涉任何個案。","再來，我還要提最高檢察署有發新聞稿說，有人問到說反滲透法處理下，會不會造成寒蟬效應、很多人民受害？他們說沒有，主要是對於行為人或主謀，可是我們看到這一段時間，所有反滲透法的案子是非常多善良老百姓被叫去問、被嚇得要死，檢察官跟他說，你就認一認，緩起訴沒事，所以導致有很多案子民眾只是去旅遊，回來怕繼續惹事或被關嚇得要死，所以就直接說：好，我認，給我緩起訴。現在發生一個問題，其實我自己當過檢察官都很清楚，當事人有時候承認，就給他緩起訴，可是證據到底充不充足，承辦檢察官自己其實心知肚明，很多時候甚至因為證據不足，覺得起訴有風險，他會跟當事人講，不然我給你最輕微的緩起訴，換你的承認。將來會發生一個問題，如果有一些陪著你們所謂的主嫌到大陸去旅遊，結果回來之後，去參加旅遊的人都承認、都緩起訴，後來主嫌因為證據不足判無罪，這樣怎麼辦？被騙緩起訴的這些人以後怎麼處理？法務部有沒有思考這個問題？或調查局有沒有思考這個問題？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，你剛剛提的狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的，反滲透法要規範的是，受滲透來源指示、委託、資助而違反選罷法，選罷法是其中一個態樣，所以基本上，反滲透法處罰對象是揪團的人，如果以你說去大陸旅遊，法條要處罰是揪團的人，所以參團的人絕對不會受到起訴或不起訴，他們是證人的身分。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，因為我剛剛有提到，這個案子就是在選舉前的，因為現在……"],["陳局長白立：一般這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這些案子在選舉前，這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室密切地聯繫，因為有部分還沒有被判，目前到一審判決的都無罪，將來我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候就可以把案子公開，到時候再來談。","但是我要跟各位報告一件事情，選舉到了，總是用這種方式讓大家噤聲，我覺得這樣不對，因為我們明明是民主國家，現在的政黨一直追求民主，結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼？另外是在問筆錄時……我剛剛提到緩起訴的部分，不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人判無罪，其他到場的那些人反而變成緩起訴，就等著看將來會不會這樣？因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了。沒關係，我會等其他人在一審都判完之後，再來跟大家討論這個案子。","第二個，我剛剛提到訊問時候的方式是用騙的、用拐的，跟各位報告，如果你認為筆錄真的敢像以前一樣不錄音、不錄影，或是像高虹安或者是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷，除非像這樣子，發生了什麼事我不知道，否則全程錄音、錄影的話，所有訊問的方式將來都會曝光，不要說到最後別人把這個資料在開庭時拿出來，再來被大家質疑，我覺得沒必要這樣，尤其最近來跟我陳情的幾個案子，很多都有很嚴重的違反法定程序。","再包括這個案件已經起訴了，已經不是我在偵查中討論個案，你們北檢的那位檢察官跑去問沈慶京的時候，竟然可以在被告的訊問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷，我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄，主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄，我們什麼時候對於被告的訊問筆錄還可以括號被告的眼神怎麼樣，我真的不知道可以這樣做。我這樣講不知道部長會不會聽的進去，但我覺得司法的信任度被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞，這不是國家的福氣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個筆錄的記載，這本來就是書記官的職權，我當過書記官喔！這個本來就可以記載被告的神情，本來就可以記載的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們會記載被告拒答、哭泣等等的，但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎？請部長自己先想清楚這個點。","最後，我認為司法是拿來抓犯罪的，司法不是政治工具，國安法的目的是為了針對跟清算中共對臺灣的滲透勢力，不是拿來對付無辜的國人，請大家記住這一點，司法是對付犯罪的，國安法是對付外來的，例如中共滲透的外來勢力，所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具，國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具，謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：不好意思，謝謝莊瑞雄委員，請多擔待。","廖先翔、廖先翔、廖先翔。","請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}}