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{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 212.667, \"end\": 212.767, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 212.767, \"end\": 212.987, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 212.987, \"end\": 213.107, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 213.107, \"end\": 213.247, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 213.247, \"end\": 213.367, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 213.367, \"end\": 213.667, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 213.667, \"end\": 213.947, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 213.947, \"end\": 214.107, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 214.107, \"end\": 214.248, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 214.248, \"end\": 214.368, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 214.368, \"end\": 214.628, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 214.628, \"end\": 214.848, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 214.848, \"end\": 215.028, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 215.028, \"end\": 215.228, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 215.228, \"end\": 215.348, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 215.348, \"end\": 215.428, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 215.428, \"end\": 215.848, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 215.848, \"end\": 216.569, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 216.569, \"end\": 216.729, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 216.729, \"end\": 217.129, \"score\": 0.691}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 217.129, \"end\": 217.369, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 217.369, \"end\": 217.65, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 217.65, \"end\": 217.67, \"score\": 0.02}]}, {\"start\": 218.45, \"end\": 226.191, \"text\": 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\"start\": 709.81, \"end\": 710.991, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 710.991, \"end\": 711.091, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 711.091, \"end\": 711.191, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 711.191, \"end\": 711.531, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 711.531, \"end\": 711.611, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 711.611, \"end\": 712.131, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 712.131, \"end\": 712.552, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 712.552, \"end\": 712.672, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 712.672, \"end\": 713.192, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 713.192, \"end\": 713.392, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 713.392, \"end\": 713.572, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 713.572, \"end\": 713.732, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 713.732, \"end\": 713.872, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 713.872, \"end\": 714.033, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 714.033, \"end\": 714.233, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 714.233, \"end\": 715.253, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 715.253, \"end\": 715.473, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 715.473, \"end\": 715.734, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 715.734, \"end\": 715.934, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 715.934, \"end\": 716.334, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 716.334, \"end\": 716.514, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 716.514, \"end\": 716.734, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 716.734, \"end\": 716.874, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 716.874, \"end\": 717.114, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 717.114, \"end\": 717.274, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 717.274, \"end\": 717.595, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 717.595, \"end\": 717.755, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 717.755, \"end\": 717.955, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 717.955, \"end\": 718.295, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"歸\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 718.295, \"end\": 718.735, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 718.735, \"end\": 718.875, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 718.875, \"end\": 719.256, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 719.256, \"end\": 719.396, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 719.396, \"end\": 719.476, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 719.476, \"end\": 719.716, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 719.716, \"end\": 720.116, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 720.116, \"end\": 720.576, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 720.576, \"end\": 720.596, \"score\": 0.441}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,189 --> 00:00:22,138\n那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言副長還有我們大局局長委員好副長還有局長我覺得剛剛吳委員吳昭偉在質詢的時候你們都答得不好都答得不好你要想啊亞洲要撲人\n\n2\n00:00:23,780 --> 00:00:38,732\n刑法兩百七十七條傷害罪五年以下有嫉妒刑連三破五的任何一個檢察官你押不押社會重大矚目不是嗎詐欺罪啊三百三十九條\n\n3\n00:00:41,629 --> 00:00:58,870\n五年以下有期徒刑,我都說五年以下的,連署騙五天騙十天,承辦一年我們押不押,社會有壓力同樣啊,210條違照私文書,這次大量在連署造假,死亡連署這個,也是五年以下,集團性的\n\n4\n00:00:59,631 --> 00:01:10,575\n你說同樣的一個罪責你就叫檢察官說求你講的都放甚至有人講說哎喲這個比例原則啦甚至你覺得說好像大炮在打小鳥啊這個讓檢察官有一個辦案的空間是一個好事啊這樣解釋得好啊所以你們解釋得不好兩位都請回不想問你們了我們請司法院的副秘書長\n\n5\n00:01:29,639 --> 00:01:31,741\n國防部還有我們軍事安全總隊總隊長黃總隊長\n\n6\n00:01:48,070 --> 00:02:02,937\n請你們上來不是刁難你們啦所以剛好我其實在上禮拜請教過我們司法院整個國安案件的一個審理這個部分因為我都覺得我們沒有得到答案可是我們上禮拜去考察\n\n7\n00:02:03,777 --> 00:02:29,876\n我們法官學院的時候本席突然有得到一些靈感所以要來救教就是說我們一般國安案件沒有公開審理所以一般民眾常常會看到結果看到這個結果以後呢這個過程就比較沒有辦法去理解因為沒有辦法去公開所以民眾在對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱那法院有時候審理一個案件的時候\n\n8\n00:02:32,638 --> 00:02:53,308\n文來文去到底是有沒有違反到國安涉及到整個資料的一個調查那像譬如說民眾會認為說都已經把機密交給敵人了怎麼判這麼輕可是對法官來講他會認為你這個洩密的文件你到底是有沒有涉及到機密或者是一般的文件\n\n9\n00:02:54,048 --> 00:03:14,637\n那就很麻煩啦那就很麻煩啦那所以呢法官審理的時候必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級甚至於保密的一個期限那到最後如果得到的是國防部說回給法院說這是一般文件而已可是媒體一披露了就是說已經把這些機密交給敵人了法院判下來無罪\n\n10\n00:03:16,837 --> 00:03:37,670\n很合理啊如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話很有可能真的是無罪啊所以會產生很大的一個問題啊那大家啊看不到法官怎麼樣做出這個判決的時候因為沒有公開審理嘛服務卿是吧沒有公開審理那所以呢也沒有辦法去知道說整個法官的整個新政行程的一個過程自然會有落差\n\n11\n00:03:38,450 --> 00:03:46,191\n那第二個就是說我剛剛提到的法院在等國防部的一個鑑定時間你以為去拖延有時候一來一往連羈押的期間都已經過了那所以呢本事要提出來的就是說這個我們現在的法官也不按這個不熟悉這整個軍事跟國安的一個風險的一個評估畢竟不同不是說他程度低喔是那個整個養成的一個過程裡面還有所處的環境\n\n12\n00:04:07,196 --> 00:04:17,486\n跟過去整個軍事審判軍法官他的一個看法會有所不同那司法院是不是藉著這個機會好好來說明你們還有沒有什麼樣的一個難處應該可以跟社會來做一個溝通我這一點要來請教我們的副秘書長\n\n13\n00:04:27,264 --> 00:04:56,466\n好非常謝謝委員那個確實委員有提出了一些就是我們法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到了一些那個情況那當然每個個案的情形都不一樣的那委員確實有講到了一個情況就是有比較普遍性的就是我們在今年那個法官學院對於確定的案件做一個那個個案研討的時候呢他有呈現出一個狀況就是說那個因為所謂的這個機密資料呢\n\n14\n00:04:56,886 --> 00:05:24,748\n他必須是要經過國防部判定他的屬性因為像這些那個哪一種的機密呢他是屬於說是那個國家機密或是國防秘密或者是國防以外的秘密甚至於只是一般的文書這個都是要經過就是國防部他來判定他的屬性還有他的種類跟他的保密期間這個是我們那個法院必須那個尊重的\n\n15\n00:05:25,308 --> 00:05:47,748\n那有在那個就是個案中呢又有發生過就是說因為偵查的時候如果你羈押人的時候他們辦案期間全部就只有四個月時間就是羈押期間所以常常他們因為那個偵查期間不夠那有時候有碰過說在偵查中呢這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候就起訴來了\n\n16\n00:05:48,709 --> 00:06:11,343\n那所以就法院就必須就這一些因為有時候起訴的那個罪數非常多甚至有這個個案他就有36項的那個罪起訴的36個罪那就一個一個去問說到底是哪一種的那個機密那像這一種情況他就會涉及到了\n\n17\n00:06:11,923 --> 00:06:25,541\n就是說那個一個是時間上的延長那還有甚至於就是說判定回來之後他其實根本就不是屬於機密那就不構成那個犯罪嘛跟構成要件不符合就必須要那個判無罪這個情形那委員剛剛還有講到一個情況\n\n18\n00:06:27,964 --> 00:06:52,279\n就是說有關於就是說他最後產生的這個風險啊這個是等於是那個犯罪的那個損害有多大這個是量刑其中一個很大的一個因素那我們所那個建議法官的這個有焦點團體焦點團體就包括那個國防部還有那個國安局等團體他們那個就是建議有關於那個國安案件\n\n19\n00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,041\n所以問題就來了我們練習所有的單位\n\n20\n00:07:23,901 --> 00:07:47,402\n你們不是在看戲跟你們非常有很重大的一個關係一個案子到底到最後法官會判出來會是怎麼樣其實很多都是各個單位的一個問題法官在這個地方在做獨立審判的時候有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實常常都會影響到整個到最後整個案件的具體的一個判決你這樣譬如說\n\n21\n00:07:49,195 --> 00:08:18,522\n一個案子裡面到底到最後罪責是不是相當判決做出來你也要說得通啊然後老百姓才有辦法去做一個幸福啊本席為什麼今天再一次請司法院上來的原因就是說我們接下來如果說要回顧到整個軍事審判的話這個制度的一個設計裡面我們最擔心的像譬如說光部這個地方我們法官的地位到底是什麼你們對軍法官的專業的一個養成你們真的準備好了嗎\n\n22\n00:08:20,233 --> 00:08:25,824\n你們真的準備好了嗎因為你平常看起來你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的啊然後你這到了\n\n23\n00:08:26,533 --> 00:08:51,723\n到了真正有急迫的時候你們真的有辦法去運作嗎請說明委員好我是國防部法律司法律機構處處長針對委員垂詢的這部分其實軍法官的部分其實在103年之後確實沒有從事這個偵審的工作但是在未來如果修法恢復之後我們會針對跟司法院也好法務部也好會針對訓練部分來做一個加強\n\n24\n00:08:52,583 --> 00:09:21,333\n那其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分其實是沒有太多問題可能是未來針對不管是偵查技巧也好或是審判上應該要注意的事情我們會跟相關機關來做協調來做一個訓練以上我是比較懷疑啦我是比較懷疑不是說他的程度不好啦有時候那個文化真的會不同啦你說譬如說一個上位啊你們上位多久一定要升上去否則就要強制退伍的17年嘛對不對\n\n25\n00:09:22,526 --> 00:09:50,473\n那法官是有終身保障咧?包委員其實軍法官的部分確實是軍官但是他也是審判法上的法官當然嘛他是軍官嘛他在審判的時候當然他也叫做法官嘛可是跟普通法院的法官那就是不一樣嘛普通法院的一個法官的話他整個地位的一個保障然後整個審判的一個獨立比較有辦法去做一個確保啦\n\n26\n00:09:51,033 --> 00:09:54,516\n那你如果是一個軍法官涉及到他的升遷的問題還有他整個軍階這個是不是毫無影響到整個他審判的時候的一個獨立性\n\n27\n00:10:06,444 --> 00:10:26,317\n這個其實都值得去探討的一個地方我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障那當然啦所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看的話大家在看說這整個軍法官是不是專業上不足\n\n28\n00:10:27,077 --> 00:10:50,430\n制度上的一個設計是不是有漏洞這怎麼樣去補強尤其是軍法官的身份其實跟普通法院的法官也不一樣這變成說身份不明有升遷壓力的問題的時候會涉及到整個審判獨立的一個保障我希望這個未來這個整個制度你們可以好好的趕快去提出以這樣的一個制度上的一個設計\n\n29\n00:10:52,071 --> 00:11:08,977\n但是以目前來看的話比如說你們軍法官好像也有調到各地檢署或者法院裡面跟他們好像也大家一起跟著一起學習調到地檢署協助辦案協助辦案問題是你們辦的也不是未必是國安案件\n\n30\n00:11:10,793 --> 00:11:37,223\n居士案件都有協助所以嘛畢竟還是有本質上的一個不同那至於我們所提到的剛剛就叫我們副秘書長的部分就法官在量刑那個部分你們當然有一個準則在類似參考的一個標準但那個部分是不是太過於簡略應該更具體或者說應該怎麼樣來在制度上再去做一個精進否則\n\n31\n00:11:39,324 --> 00:12:00,596\n涉及到一個判決那常常有時候你會跟社會上落差真的會很大這個部分也覺得我們司法院也應該跟國防部或者說法務部或者相關的一個單位大家共同再去做一個研擬司法到最後還是最重要的還是要回歸於人民對他的一個信賴啦好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t22138\t那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言副長還有我們大局局長委員好副長還有局長我覺得剛剛吳委員吳昭偉在質詢的時候你們都答得不好都答得不好你要想啊 亞洲要撲人\n23780\t38732\t刑法兩百七十七條傷害罪五年以下有嫉妒刑連三破五的任何一個檢察官你押不押社會重大矚目不是嗎詐欺罪啊 三百三十九條\n41629\t58870\t五年以下有期徒刑,我都說五年以下的,連署騙五天騙十天,承辦一年我們押不押,社會有壓力同樣啊,210條違照私文書,這次大量在連署造假,死亡連署這個,也是五年以下,集團性的\n59631\t70575\t你說同樣的一個罪責 你就叫檢察官說 求你講的 都放 甚至有人講說哎喲 這個比例原則啦 甚至你覺得說好像大炮在打小鳥啊這個讓檢察官有一個辦案的空間是一個好事啊這樣解釋得好啊 所以你們解釋得不好 兩位都請回 不想問你們了我們請司法院的副秘書長\n89639\t91741\t國防部還有我們軍事安全總隊總隊長黃總隊長\n108070\t122937\t請你們上來不是刁難你們啦所以剛好我其實在上禮拜請教過我們司法院整個國安案件的一個審理這個部分因為我都覺得我們沒有得到答案可是我們上禮拜去考察\n123777\t149876\t我們法官學院的時候本席突然有得到一些靈感所以要來救教就是說我們一般國安案件沒有公開審理所以一般民眾常常會看到結果看到這個結果以後呢這個過程就比較沒有辦法去理解因為沒有辦法去公開所以民眾在對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱那法院有時候審理一個案件的時候\n152638\t173308\t文來文去到底是有沒有違反到國安涉及到整個資料的一個調查那像譬如說民眾會認為說都已經把機密交給敵人了怎麼判這麼輕可是對法官來講他會認為你這個洩密的文件你到底是有沒有涉及到機密或者是一般的文件\n174048\t194637\t那就很麻煩啦那就很麻煩啦那所以呢法官審理的時候必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級甚至於保密的一個期限那到最後如果得到的是國防部說回給法院說這是一般文件而已可是媒體一披露了就是說已經把這些機密交給敵人了法院判下來無罪\n196837\t217670\t很合理啊 如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話 很有可能真的是無罪啊所以會產生很大的一個問題啊那大家啊 看不到法官怎麼樣做出這個判決的時候因為沒有公開審理嘛 服務卿是吧 沒有公開審理那所以呢 也沒有辦法去知道說整個法官的整個新政行程的一個過程自然會有落差\n218450\t226191\t那第二個就是說我剛剛提到的法院在等國防部的一個鑑定時間你以為去拖延有時候一來一往連羈押的期間都已經過了那所以呢本事要提出來的就是說這個我們現在的法官也不按這個不熟悉這整個軍事跟國安的一個風險的一個評估畢竟不同不是說他程度低喔是那個整個養成的一個過程裡面還有所處的環境\n247196\t257486\t跟過去整個軍事審判 軍法官他的一個看法會有所不同那司法院是不是藉著這個機會好好來說明你們還有沒有什麼樣的一個難處應該可以跟社會來做一個溝通我這一點要來請教我們的副秘書長\n267264\t296466\t好非常謝謝委員那個確實委員有提出了一些就是我們法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到了一些那個情況那當然每個個案的情形都不一樣的那委員確實有講到了一個情況就是有比較普遍性的就是我們在今年那個法官學院對於確定的案件做一個那個個案研討的時候呢他有呈現出一個狀況就是說那個因為所謂的這個機密資料呢\n296886\t324748\t他必須是要經過國防部判定他的屬性因為像這些那個哪一種的機密呢他是屬於說是那個國家機密或是國防秘密或者是國防以外的秘密甚至於只是一般的文書這個都是要經過就是國防部他來判定他的屬性還有他的種類跟他的保密期間這個是我們那個法院必須那個尊重的\n325308\t347748\t那有在那個 就是個案中呢 又有發生過 就是說因為偵查的時候 如果你羈押人的時候 他們辦案期間全部就只有四個月時間 就是羈押期間所以常常他們因為那個偵查期間不夠那有時候有碰過說在偵查中呢 這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候 就起訴來了\n348709\t371343\t那所以就法院就必須就這一些因為有時候起訴的那個罪數非常多甚至有這個個案他就有36項的那個罪起訴的36個罪那就一個一個去問說到底是哪一種的那個機密那像這一種情況他就會涉及到了\n371923\t385541\t就是說那個一個是時間上的延長那還有甚至於就是說判定回來之後他其實根本就不是屬於機密那就不構成那個犯罪嘛跟構成要件不符合就必須要那個判無罪這個情形那委員剛剛還有講到一個情況\n387964\t412279\t就是說有關於就是說他最後產生的這個風險啊這個是等於是那個犯罪的那個損害有多大這個是量刑其中一個很大的一個因素那我們所那個建議法官的這個有焦點團體焦點團體就包括那個國防部還有那個國安局等團體他們那個就是建議有關於那個國安案件\n413080\t415041\t所以問題就來了我們練習所有的單位\n443901\t467402\t你們不是在看戲跟你們非常有很重大的一個關係一個案子到底到最後法官會判出來會是怎麼樣其實很多都是各個單位的一個問題法官在這個地方在做獨立審判的時候有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實常常都會影響到整個到最後整個案件的具體的一個判決你這樣譬如說\n469195\t498522\t一個案子裡面到底到最後罪責是不是相當判決做出來你也要說得通啊然後老百姓才有辦法去做一個幸福啊本席為什麼今天再一次請司法院上來的原因就是說我們接下來如果說要回顧到整個軍事審判的話這個制度的一個設計裡面我們最擔心的像譬如說光部這個地方我們法官的地位到底是什麼你們對軍法官的專業的一個養成你們真的準備好了嗎\n500233\t505824\t你們真的準備好了嗎因為你平常看起來你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的啊然後你這到了\n506533\t531723\t到了真正有急迫的時候你們真的有辦法去運作嗎請說明委員好 我是國防部法律司法律機構處處長針對委員垂詢的這部分其實軍法官的部分其實在103年之後確實沒有從事這個偵審的工作但是在未來如果修法恢復之後我們會針對跟司法院也好法務部也好會針對訓練部分來做一個加強\n532583\t561333\t那其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分其實是沒有太多問題可能是未來針對不管是偵查技巧也好或是審判上應該要注意的事情我們會跟相關機關來做協調來做一個訓練 以上我是比較懷疑啦我是比較懷疑不是說他的程度不好啦有時候那個文化真的會不同啦你說譬如說一個上位啊你們上位多久一定要升上去否則就要強制退伍的17年嘛 對不對\n562526\t590473\t那法官是有終身保障咧?包委員其實軍法官的部分確實是軍官但是他也是審判法上的法官當然嘛他是軍官嘛他在審判的時候當然他也叫做法官嘛可是跟普通法院的法官那就是不一樣嘛普通法院的一個法官的話他整個地位的一個保障然後整個審判的一個獨立比較有辦法去做一個確保啦\n591033\t594516\t那你如果是一個軍法官涉及到他的升遷的問題還有他整個軍階 這個是不是毫無影響到整個他審判的時候的一個獨立性\n606444\t626317\t這個其實都值得去探討的一個地方我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障那當然啦所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看的話大家在看說這整個軍法官是不是專業上不足\n627077\t650430\t制度上的一個設計是不是有漏洞這怎麼樣去補強尤其是軍法官的身份其實跟普通法院的法官也不一樣這變成說身份不明有升遷壓力的問題的時候會涉及到整個審判獨立的一個保障我希望這個未來這個整個制度你們可以好好的趕快去提出以這樣的一個制度上的一個設計\n652071\t668977\t但是以目前來看的話比如說你們軍法官好像也有調到各地檢署或者法院裡面跟他們好像也大家一起跟著一起學習調到地檢署協助辦案協助辦案問題是你們辦的也不是未必是國安案件\n670793\t697223\t居士案件都有協助所以嘛 畢竟還是有本質上的一個不同那至於我們所提到的剛剛就叫我們副秘書長的部分就法官在量刑那個部分你們當然有一個準則在類似參考的一個標準但那個部分是不是太過於簡略應該更具體或者說應該怎麼樣來在制度上再去做一個精進否則\n699324\t720596\t涉及到一個判決那常常有時候你會跟社會上落差真的會很大這個部分也覺得我們司法院也應該跟國防部或者說法務部或者相關的一個單位大家共同再去做一個研擬司法到最後還是最重要的還是要回歸於人民對他的一個信賴啦好 謝謝\n","txt":"那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言副長還有我們大局局長委員好副長還有局長我覺得剛剛吳委員吳昭偉在質詢的時候你們都答得不好都答得不好你要想啊 亞洲要撲人\n刑法兩百七十七條傷害罪五年以下有嫉妒刑連三破五的任何一個檢察官你押不押社會重大矚目不是嗎詐欺罪啊 三百三十九條\n五年以下有期徒刑,我都說五年以下的,連署騙五天騙十天,承辦一年我們押不押,社會有壓力同樣啊,210條違照私文書,這次大量在連署造假,死亡連署這個,也是五年以下,集團性的\n你說同樣的一個罪責 你就叫檢察官說 求你講的 都放 甚至有人講說哎喲 這個比例原則啦 甚至你覺得說好像大炮在打小鳥啊這個讓檢察官有一個辦案的空間是一個好事啊這樣解釋得好啊 所以你們解釋得不好 兩位都請回 不想問你們了我們請司法院的副秘書長\n國防部還有我們軍事安全總隊總隊長黃總隊長\n請你們上來不是刁難你們啦所以剛好我其實在上禮拜請教過我們司法院整個國安案件的一個審理這個部分因為我都覺得我們沒有得到答案可是我們上禮拜去考察\n我們法官學院的時候本席突然有得到一些靈感所以要來救教就是說我們一般國安案件沒有公開審理所以一般民眾常常會看到結果看到這個結果以後呢這個過程就比較沒有辦法去理解因為沒有辦法去公開所以民眾在對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱那法院有時候審理一個案件的時候\n文來文去到底是有沒有違反到國安涉及到整個資料的一個調查那像譬如說民眾會認為說都已經把機密交給敵人了怎麼判這麼輕可是對法官來講他會認為你這個洩密的文件你到底是有沒有涉及到機密或者是一般的文件\n那就很麻煩啦那就很麻煩啦那所以呢法官審理的時候必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級甚至於保密的一個期限那到最後如果得到的是國防部說回給法院說這是一般文件而已可是媒體一披露了就是說已經把這些機密交給敵人了法院判下來無罪\n很合理啊 如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話 很有可能真的是無罪啊所以會產生很大的一個問題啊那大家啊 看不到法官怎麼樣做出這個判決的時候因為沒有公開審理嘛 服務卿是吧 沒有公開審理那所以呢 也沒有辦法去知道說整個法官的整個新政行程的一個過程自然會有落差\n那第二個就是說我剛剛提到的法院在等國防部的一個鑑定時間你以為去拖延有時候一來一往連羈押的期間都已經過了那所以呢本事要提出來的就是說這個我們現在的法官也不按這個不熟悉這整個軍事跟國安的一個風險的一個評估畢竟不同不是說他程度低喔是那個整個養成的一個過程裡面還有所處的環境\n跟過去整個軍事審判 軍法官他的一個看法會有所不同那司法院是不是藉著這個機會好好來說明你們還有沒有什麼樣的一個難處應該可以跟社會來做一個溝通我這一點要來請教我們的副秘書長\n好非常謝謝委員那個確實委員有提出了一些就是我們法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到了一些那個情況那當然每個個案的情形都不一樣的那委員確實有講到了一個情況就是有比較普遍性的就是我們在今年那個法官學院對於確定的案件做一個那個個案研討的時候呢他有呈現出一個狀況就是說那個因為所謂的這個機密資料呢\n他必須是要經過國防部判定他的屬性因為像這些那個哪一種的機密呢他是屬於說是那個國家機密或是國防秘密或者是國防以外的秘密甚至於只是一般的文書這個都是要經過就是國防部他來判定他的屬性還有他的種類跟他的保密期間這個是我們那個法院必須那個尊重的\n那有在那個 就是個案中呢 又有發生過 就是說因為偵查的時候 如果你羈押人的時候 他們辦案期間全部就只有四個月時間 就是羈押期間所以常常他們因為那個偵查期間不夠那有時候有碰過說在偵查中呢 這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候 就起訴來了\n那所以就法院就必須就這一些因為有時候起訴的那個罪數非常多甚至有這個個案他就有36項的那個罪起訴的36個罪那就一個一個去問說到底是哪一種的那個機密那像這一種情況他就會涉及到了\n就是說那個一個是時間上的延長那還有甚至於就是說判定回來之後他其實根本就不是屬於機密那就不構成那個犯罪嘛跟構成要件不符合就必須要那個判無罪這個情形那委員剛剛還有講到一個情況\n就是說有關於就是說他最後產生的這個風險啊這個是等於是那個犯罪的那個損害有多大這個是量刑其中一個很大的一個因素那我們所那個建議法官的這個有焦點團體焦點團體就包括那個國防部還有那個國安局等團體他們那個就是建議有關於那個國安案件\n所以問題就來了我們練習所有的單位\n你們不是在看戲跟你們非常有很重大的一個關係一個案子到底到最後法官會判出來會是怎麼樣其實很多都是各個單位的一個問題法官在這個地方在做獨立審判的時候有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實常常都會影響到整個到最後整個案件的具體的一個判決你這樣譬如說\n一個案子裡面到底到最後罪責是不是相當判決做出來你也要說得通啊然後老百姓才有辦法去做一個幸福啊本席為什麼今天再一次請司法院上來的原因就是說我們接下來如果說要回顧到整個軍事審判的話這個制度的一個設計裡面我們最擔心的像譬如說光部這個地方我們法官的地位到底是什麼你們對軍法官的專業的一個養成你們真的準備好了嗎\n你們真的準備好了嗎因為你平常看起來你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的啊然後你這到了\n到了真正有急迫的時候你們真的有辦法去運作嗎請說明委員好 我是國防部法律司法律機構處處長針對委員垂詢的這部分其實軍法官的部分其實在103年之後確實沒有從事這個偵審的工作但是在未來如果修法恢復之後我們會針對跟司法院也好法務部也好會針對訓練部分來做一個加強\n那其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分其實是沒有太多問題可能是未來針對不管是偵查技巧也好或是審判上應該要注意的事情我們會跟相關機關來做協調來做一個訓練 以上我是比較懷疑啦我是比較懷疑不是說他的程度不好啦有時候那個文化真的會不同啦你說譬如說一個上位啊你們上位多久一定要升上去否則就要強制退伍的17年嘛 對不對\n那法官是有終身保障咧?包委員其實軍法官的部分確實是軍官但是他也是審判法上的法官當然嘛他是軍官嘛他在審判的時候當然他也叫做法官嘛可是跟普通法院的法官那就是不一樣嘛普通法院的一個法官的話他整個地位的一個保障然後整個審判的一個獨立比較有辦法去做一個確保啦\n那你如果是一個軍法官涉及到他的升遷的問題還有他整個軍階 這個是不是毫無影響到整個他審判的時候的一個獨立性\n這個其實都值得去探討的一個地方我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障那當然啦所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看的話大家在看說這整個軍法官是不是專業上不足\n制度上的一個設計是不是有漏洞這怎麼樣去補強尤其是軍法官的身份其實跟普通法院的法官也不一樣這變成說身份不明有升遷壓力的問題的時候會涉及到整個審判獨立的一個保障我希望這個未來這個整個制度你們可以好好的趕快去提出以這樣的一個制度上的一個設計\n但是以目前來看的話比如說你們軍法官好像也有調到各地檢署或者法院裡面跟他們好像也大家一起跟著一起學習調到地檢署協助辦案協助辦案問題是你們辦的也不是未必是國安案件\n居士案件都有協助所以嘛 畢竟還是有本質上的一個不同那至於我們所提到的剛剛就叫我們副秘書長的部分就法官在量刑那個部分你們當然有一個準則在類似參考的一個標準但那個部分是不是太過於簡略應該更具體或者說應該怎麼樣來在制度上再去做一個精進否則\n涉及到一個判決那常常有時候你會跟社會上落差真的會很大這個部分也覺得我們司法院也應該跟國防部或者說法務部或者相關的一個單位大家共同再去做一個研擬司法到最後還是最重要的還是要回歸於人民對他的一個信賴啦好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:22.138\n那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言副長還有我們大局局長委員好副長還有局長我覺得剛剛吳委員吳昭偉在質詢的時候你們都答得不好都答得不好你要想啊亞洲要撲人\n\n00:23.780 --> 00:38.732\n刑法兩百七十七條傷害罪五年以下有嫉妒刑連三破五的任何一個檢察官你押不押社會重大矚目不是嗎詐欺罪啊三百三十九條\n\n00:41.629 --> 00:58.870\n五年以下有期徒刑,我都說五年以下的,連署騙五天騙十天,承辦一年我們押不押,社會有壓力同樣啊,210條違照私文書,這次大量在連署造假,死亡連署這個,也是五年以下,集團性的\n\n00:59.631 --> 01:10.575\n你說同樣的一個罪責你就叫檢察官說求你講的都放甚至有人講說哎喲這個比例原則啦甚至你覺得說好像大炮在打小鳥啊這個讓檢察官有一個辦案的空間是一個好事啊這樣解釋得好啊所以你們解釋得不好兩位都請回不想問你們了我們請司法院的副秘書長\n\n01:29.639 --> 01:31.741\n國防部還有我們軍事安全總隊總隊長黃總隊長\n\n01:48.070 --> 02:02.937\n請你們上來不是刁難你們啦所以剛好我其實在上禮拜請教過我們司法院整個國安案件的一個審理這個部分因為我都覺得我們沒有得到答案可是我們上禮拜去考察\n\n02:03.777 --> 02:29.876\n我們法官學院的時候本席突然有得到一些靈感所以要來救教就是說我們一般國安案件沒有公開審理所以一般民眾常常會看到結果看到這個結果以後呢這個過程就比較沒有辦法去理解因為沒有辦法去公開所以民眾在對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱那法院有時候審理一個案件的時候\n\n02:32.638 --> 02:53.308\n文來文去到底是有沒有違反到國安涉及到整個資料的一個調查那像譬如說民眾會認為說都已經把機密交給敵人了怎麼判這麼輕可是對法官來講他會認為你這個洩密的文件你到底是有沒有涉及到機密或者是一般的文件\n\n02:54.048 --> 03:14.637\n那就很麻煩啦那就很麻煩啦那所以呢法官審理的時候必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級甚至於保密的一個期限那到最後如果得到的是國防部說回給法院說這是一般文件而已可是媒體一披露了就是說已經把這些機密交給敵人了法院判下來無罪\n\n03:16.837 --> 03:37.670\n很合理啊如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話很有可能真的是無罪啊所以會產生很大的一個問題啊那大家啊看不到法官怎麼樣做出這個判決的時候因為沒有公開審理嘛服務卿是吧沒有公開審理那所以呢也沒有辦法去知道說整個法官的整個新政行程的一個過程自然會有落差\n\n03:38.450 --> 03:46.191\n那第二個就是說我剛剛提到的法院在等國防部的一個鑑定時間你以為去拖延有時候一來一往連羈押的期間都已經過了那所以呢本事要提出來的就是說這個我們現在的法官也不按這個不熟悉這整個軍事跟國安的一個風險的一個評估畢竟不同不是說他程度低喔是那個整個養成的一個過程裡面還有所處的環境\n\n04:07.196 --> 04:17.486\n跟過去整個軍事審判軍法官他的一個看法會有所不同那司法院是不是藉著這個機會好好來說明你們還有沒有什麼樣的一個難處應該可以跟社會來做一個溝通我這一點要來請教我們的副秘書長\n\n04:27.264 --> 04:56.466\n好非常謝謝委員那個確實委員有提出了一些就是我們法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到了一些那個情況那當然每個個案的情形都不一樣的那委員確實有講到了一個情況就是有比較普遍性的就是我們在今年那個法官學院對於確定的案件做一個那個個案研討的時候呢他有呈現出一個狀況就是說那個因為所謂的這個機密資料呢\n\n04:56.886 --> 05:24.748\n他必須是要經過國防部判定他的屬性因為像這些那個哪一種的機密呢他是屬於說是那個國家機密或是國防秘密或者是國防以外的秘密甚至於只是一般的文書這個都是要經過就是國防部他來判定他的屬性還有他的種類跟他的保密期間這個是我們那個法院必須那個尊重的\n\n05:25.308 --> 05:47.748\n那有在那個就是個案中呢又有發生過就是說因為偵查的時候如果你羈押人的時候他們辦案期間全部就只有四個月時間就是羈押期間所以常常他們因為那個偵查期間不夠那有時候有碰過說在偵查中呢這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候就起訴來了\n\n05:48.709 --> 06:11.343\n那所以就法院就必須就這一些因為有時候起訴的那個罪數非常多甚至有這個個案他就有36項的那個罪起訴的36個罪那就一個一個去問說到底是哪一種的那個機密那像這一種情況他就會涉及到了\n\n06:11.923 --> 06:25.541\n就是說那個一個是時間上的延長那還有甚至於就是說判定回來之後他其實根本就不是屬於機密那就不構成那個犯罪嘛跟構成要件不符合就必須要那個判無罪這個情形那委員剛剛還有講到一個情況\n\n06:27.964 --> 06:52.279\n就是說有關於就是說他最後產生的這個風險啊這個是等於是那個犯罪的那個損害有多大這個是量刑其中一個很大的一個因素那我們所那個建議法官的這個有焦點團體焦點團體就包括那個國防部還有那個國安局等團體他們那個就是建議有關於那個國安案件\n\n06:53.080 --> 06:55.041\n所以問題就來了我們練習所有的單位\n\n07:23.901 --> 07:47.402\n你們不是在看戲跟你們非常有很重大的一個關係一個案子到底到最後法官會判出來會是怎麼樣其實很多都是各個單位的一個問題法官在這個地方在做獨立審判的時候有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實常常都會影響到整個到最後整個案件的具體的一個判決你這樣譬如說\n\n07:49.195 --> 08:18.522\n一個案子裡面到底到最後罪責是不是相當判決做出來你也要說得通啊然後老百姓才有辦法去做一個幸福啊本席為什麼今天再一次請司法院上來的原因就是說我們接下來如果說要回顧到整個軍事審判的話這個制度的一個設計裡面我們最擔心的像譬如說光部這個地方我們法官的地位到底是什麼你們對軍法官的專業的一個養成你們真的準備好了嗎\n\n08:20.233 --> 08:25.824\n你們真的準備好了嗎因為你平常看起來你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的啊然後你這到了\n\n08:26.533 --> 08:51.723\n到了真正有急迫的時候你們真的有辦法去運作嗎請說明委員好我是國防部法律司法律機構處處長針對委員垂詢的這部分其實軍法官的部分其實在103年之後確實沒有從事這個偵審的工作但是在未來如果修法恢復之後我們會針對跟司法院也好法務部也好會針對訓練部分來做一個加強\n\n08:52.583 --> 09:21.333\n那其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分其實是沒有太多問題可能是未來針對不管是偵查技巧也好或是審判上應該要注意的事情我們會跟相關機關來做協調來做一個訓練以上我是比較懷疑啦我是比較懷疑不是說他的程度不好啦有時候那個文化真的會不同啦你說譬如說一個上位啊你們上位多久一定要升上去否則就要強制退伍的17年嘛對不對\n\n09:22.526 --> 09:50.473\n那法官是有終身保障咧?包委員其實軍法官的部分確實是軍官但是他也是審判法上的法官當然嘛他是軍官嘛他在審判的時候當然他也叫做法官嘛可是跟普通法院的法官那就是不一樣嘛普通法院的一個法官的話他整個地位的一個保障然後整個審判的一個獨立比較有辦法去做一個確保啦\n\n09:51.033 --> 09:54.516\n那你如果是一個軍法官涉及到他的升遷的問題還有他整個軍階這個是不是毫無影響到整個他審判的時候的一個獨立性\n\n10:06.444 --> 10:26.317\n這個其實都值得去探討的一個地方我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障那當然啦所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看的話大家在看說這整個軍法官是不是專業上不足\n\n10:27.077 --> 10:50.430\n制度上的一個設計是不是有漏洞這怎麼樣去補強尤其是軍法官的身份其實跟普通法院的法官也不一樣這變成說身份不明有升遷壓力的問題的時候會涉及到整個審判獨立的一個保障我希望這個未來這個整個制度你們可以好好的趕快去提出以這樣的一個制度上的一個設計\n\n10:52.071 --> 11:08.977\n但是以目前來看的話比如說你們軍法官好像也有調到各地檢署或者法院裡面跟他們好像也大家一起跟著一起學習調到地檢署協助辦案協助辦案問題是你們辦的也不是未必是國安案件\n\n11:10.793 --> 11:37.223\n居士案件都有協助所以嘛畢竟還是有本質上的一個不同那至於我們所提到的剛剛就叫我們副秘書長的部分就法官在量刑那個部分你們當然有一個準則在類似參考的一個標準但那個部分是不是太過於簡略應該更具體或者說應該怎麼樣來在制度上再去做一個精進否則\n\n11:39.324 --> 12:00.596\n涉及到一個判決那常常有時候你會跟社會上落差真的會很大這個部分也覺得我們司法院也應該跟國防部或者說法務部或者相關的一個單位大家共同再去做一個研擬司法到最後還是最重要的還是要回歸於人民對他的一個信賴啦好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":22.138,"text":"那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言副長還有我們大局局長委員好副長還有局長我覺得剛剛吳委員吳昭偉在質詢的時候你們都答得不好都答得不好你要想啊 亞洲要撲人"},{"start":23.78,"end":38.732,"text":"刑法兩百七十七條傷害罪五年以下有嫉妒刑連三破五的任何一個檢察官你押不押社會重大矚目不是嗎詐欺罪啊 三百三十九條"},{"start":41.629,"end":58.87,"text":"五年以下有期徒刑,我都說五年以下的,連署騙五天騙十天,承辦一年我們押不押,社會有壓力同樣啊,210條違照私文書,這次大量在連署造假,死亡連署這個,也是五年以下,集團性的"},{"start":59.631,"end":70.575,"text":"你說同樣的一個罪責 你就叫檢察官說 求你講的 都放 甚至有人講說哎喲 這個比例原則啦 甚至你覺得說好像大炮在打小鳥啊這個讓檢察官有一個辦案的空間是一個好事啊這樣解釋得好啊 所以你們解釋得不好 兩位都請回 不想問你們了我們請司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":89.639,"end":91.741,"text":"國防部還有我們軍事安全總隊總隊長黃總隊長"},{"start":108.07,"end":122.937,"text":"請你們上來不是刁難你們啦所以剛好我其實在上禮拜請教過我們司法院整個國安案件的一個審理這個部分因為我都覺得我們沒有得到答案可是我們上禮拜去考察"},{"start":123.777,"end":149.876,"text":"我們法官學院的時候本席突然有得到一些靈感所以要來救教就是說我們一般國安案件沒有公開審理所以一般民眾常常會看到結果看到這個結果以後呢這個過程就比較沒有辦法去理解因為沒有辦法去公開所以民眾在對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱那法院有時候審理一個案件的時候"},{"start":152.638,"end":173.308,"text":"文來文去到底是有沒有違反到國安涉及到整個資料的一個調查那像譬如說民眾會認為說都已經把機密交給敵人了怎麼判這麼輕可是對法官來講他會認為你這個洩密的文件你到底是有沒有涉及到機密或者是一般的文件"},{"start":174.048,"end":194.637,"text":"那就很麻煩啦那就很麻煩啦那所以呢法官審理的時候必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級甚至於保密的一個期限那到最後如果得到的是國防部說回給法院說這是一般文件而已可是媒體一披露了就是說已經把這些機密交給敵人了法院判下來無罪"},{"start":196.837,"end":217.67,"text":"很合理啊 如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話 很有可能真的是無罪啊所以會產生很大的一個問題啊那大家啊 看不到法官怎麼樣做出這個判決的時候因為沒有公開審理嘛 服務卿是吧 沒有公開審理那所以呢 也沒有辦法去知道說整個法官的整個新政行程的一個過程自然會有落差"},{"start":218.45,"end":226.191,"text":"那第二個就是說我剛剛提到的法院在等國防部的一個鑑定時間你以為去拖延有時候一來一往連羈押的期間都已經過了那所以呢本事要提出來的就是說這個我們現在的法官也不按這個不熟悉這整個軍事跟國安的一個風險的一個評估畢竟不同不是說他程度低喔是那個整個養成的一個過程裡面還有所處的環境"},{"start":247.196,"end":257.486,"text":"跟過去整個軍事審判 軍法官他的一個看法會有所不同那司法院是不是藉著這個機會好好來說明你們還有沒有什麼樣的一個難處應該可以跟社會來做一個溝通我這一點要來請教我們的副秘書長"},{"start":267.264,"end":296.466,"text":"好非常謝謝委員那個確實委員有提出了一些就是我們法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到了一些那個情況那當然每個個案的情形都不一樣的那委員確實有講到了一個情況就是有比較普遍性的就是我們在今年那個法官學院對於確定的案件做一個那個個案研討的時候呢他有呈現出一個狀況就是說那個因為所謂的這個機密資料呢"},{"start":296.886,"end":324.748,"text":"他必須是要經過國防部判定他的屬性因為像這些那個哪一種的機密呢他是屬於說是那個國家機密或是國防秘密或者是國防以外的秘密甚至於只是一般的文書這個都是要經過就是國防部他來判定他的屬性還有他的種類跟他的保密期間這個是我們那個法院必須那個尊重的"},{"start":325.308,"end":347.748,"text":"那有在那個 就是個案中呢 又有發生過 就是說因為偵查的時候 如果你羈押人的時候 他們辦案期間全部就只有四個月時間 就是羈押期間所以常常他們因為那個偵查期間不夠那有時候有碰過說在偵查中呢 這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候 就起訴來了"},{"start":348.709,"end":371.343,"text":"那所以就法院就必須就這一些因為有時候起訴的那個罪數非常多甚至有這個個案他就有36項的那個罪起訴的36個罪那就一個一個去問說到底是哪一種的那個機密那像這一種情況他就會涉及到了"},{"start":371.923,"end":385.541,"text":"就是說那個一個是時間上的延長那還有甚至於就是說判定回來之後他其實根本就不是屬於機密那就不構成那個犯罪嘛跟構成要件不符合就必須要那個判無罪這個情形那委員剛剛還有講到一個情況"},{"start":387.964,"end":412.279,"text":"就是說有關於就是說他最後產生的這個風險啊這個是等於是那個犯罪的那個損害有多大這個是量刑其中一個很大的一個因素那我們所那個建議法官的這個有焦點團體焦點團體就包括那個國防部還有那個國安局等團體他們那個就是建議有關於那個國安案件"},{"start":413.08,"end":415.041,"text":"所以問題就來了我們練習所有的單位"},{"start":443.901,"end":467.402,"text":"你們不是在看戲跟你們非常有很重大的一個關係一個案子到底到最後法官會判出來會是怎麼樣其實很多都是各個單位的一個問題法官在這個地方在做獨立審判的時候有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實常常都會影響到整個到最後整個案件的具體的一個判決你這樣譬如說"},{"start":469.195,"end":498.522,"text":"一個案子裡面到底到最後罪責是不是相當判決做出來你也要說得通啊然後老百姓才有辦法去做一個幸福啊本席為什麼今天再一次請司法院上來的原因就是說我們接下來如果說要回顧到整個軍事審判的話這個制度的一個設計裡面我們最擔心的像譬如說光部這個地方我們法官的地位到底是什麼你們對軍法官的專業的一個養成你們真的準備好了嗎"},{"start":500.233,"end":505.824,"text":"你們真的準備好了嗎因為你平常看起來你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的啊然後你這到了"},{"start":506.533,"end":531.723,"text":"到了真正有急迫的時候你們真的有辦法去運作嗎請說明委員好 我是國防部法律司法律機構處處長針對委員垂詢的這部分其實軍法官的部分其實在103年之後確實沒有從事這個偵審的工作但是在未來如果修法恢復之後我們會針對跟司法院也好法務部也好會針對訓練部分來做一個加強"},{"start":532.583,"end":561.333,"text":"那其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分其實是沒有太多問題可能是未來針對不管是偵查技巧也好或是審判上應該要注意的事情我們會跟相關機關來做協調來做一個訓練 以上我是比較懷疑啦我是比較懷疑不是說他的程度不好啦有時候那個文化真的會不同啦你說譬如說一個上位啊你們上位多久一定要升上去否則就要強制退伍的17年嘛 對不對"},{"start":562.526,"end":590.473,"text":"那法官是有終身保障咧?包委員其實軍法官的部分確實是軍官但是他也是審判法上的法官當然嘛他是軍官嘛他在審判的時候當然他也叫做法官嘛可是跟普通法院的法官那就是不一樣嘛普通法院的一個法官的話他整個地位的一個保障然後整個審判的一個獨立比較有辦法去做一個確保啦"},{"start":591.033,"end":594.516,"text":"那你如果是一個軍法官涉及到他的升遷的問題還有他整個軍階 這個是不是毫無影響到整個他審判的時候的一個獨立性"},{"start":606.444,"end":626.317,"text":"這個其實都值得去探討的一個地方我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障那當然啦所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看的話大家在看說這整個軍法官是不是專業上不足"},{"start":627.077,"end":650.43,"text":"制度上的一個設計是不是有漏洞這怎麼樣去補強尤其是軍法官的身份其實跟普通法院的法官也不一樣這變成說身份不明有升遷壓力的問題的時候會涉及到整個審判獨立的一個保障我希望這個未來這個整個制度你們可以好好的趕快去提出以這樣的一個制度上的一個設計"},{"start":652.071,"end":668.977,"text":"但是以目前來看的話比如說你們軍法官好像也有調到各地檢署或者法院裡面跟他們好像也大家一起跟著一起學習調到地檢署協助辦案協助辦案問題是你們辦的也不是未必是國安案件"},{"start":670.793,"end":697.223,"text":"居士案件都有協助所以嘛 畢竟還是有本質上的一個不同那至於我們所提到的剛剛就叫我們副秘書長的部分就法官在量刑那個部分你們當然有一個準則在類似參考的一個標準但那個部分是不是太過於簡略應該更具體或者說應該怎麼樣來在制度上再去做一個精進否則"},{"start":699.324,"end":720.596,"text":"涉及到一個判決那常常有時候你會跟社會上落差真的會很大這個部分也覺得我們司法院也應該跟國防部或者說法務部或者相關的一個單位大家共同再去做一個研擬司法到最後還是最重要的還是要回歸於人民對他的一個信賴啦好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1474,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（12時59分）謝謝召委，有請法務部部長及調查局局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長還有局長，我覺得剛剛吳召委在質詢的時候，你們都答得不好，你想想看，拿刀砍人刑法第二百七十七條傷害罪，5年以下有期徒刑。連續砍5個人，任何一個檢察官你押不押？社會重大矚目案件，不是嗎？詐欺罪第三百三十九條，最輕本刑5年以下有期徒刑。連續騙5件、騙10件，承辦檢察官押不押？社會有壓力。同樣，第二百一十條偽造私文書，就這次大量的連署造假、死亡連署也是5年以下有期徒刑，集團性的。","你說同樣的一個罪責，你叫檢察官都像你們說的都辦，甚至有人講比例原則，好像大砲在打小鳥。讓檢察官有辦案的空間是好事，這樣解釋就好了，所以你們解釋得不好，兩位都請回，不想問你們了。","我們請司法院的副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我不能只問副秘書長，今天國防部政治作戰局保防安全處處長也有到嘛！請國防部，還有軍事安全總隊總隊長汪總隊長，請你們上來不是刁難你們，我其實上禮拜請教過司法院國安案件的審理，這個部分因為我覺得沒有得到答案，可是我們上個禮拜去考察法官學院的時候，本席突然得到了一些靈感，所以要來就教，一般國安案件沒有公開審理，所以一般民眾只會看到結果，看到結果以後，過程比較沒有辦法理解，因為過程沒有辦法公開，所以民眾對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱。","法院有時候審理一個案件的時候，文來文去，到底有沒有違反到國安？涉及到資料的調查，民眾會認為都已經把機密交給敵人了，怎麼判這麼輕？可是對法官來講，他會認為洩密的文件，到底是有沒有涉及到機密或是一般的文件？那就很麻煩，所以法官審理的時候必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級，甚至保密的期限，到最後如果國防部回給法院說這是一般文件而已，可是媒體一披露已經把這些機密交給敵人了，法院判下來無罪，很合理啊！如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話，很有可能真的是無罪，這會產生很大的問題。大家看不到法官怎麼做出這個判決，因為沒有公開審理，所以也沒有辦法知道法官心證形成的過程，自然會有落差。","第二個，我剛提到的法院在等國防部的鑑定時間也會去拖延，有時候一來一往，連羈押的期間都已經過了。本席要提出來的就是，現在的法官也不諳（不熟悉）軍事跟國安風險的評估，不是說他程度低，是整個養成的過程裡面，還有所處的環境跟過去軍事審判，軍法官的看法會有所不同，司法院是不是藉這個機會好好來說明，你們還有沒有什麼樣的難處，應該可以跟社會來做溝通，這一點要來請教副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：非常謝謝委員，委員有提出了一些法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到的情況，當然每個個案的情形都不一樣，委員確實有講到一個情況比較普遍，我們在今年法官學院對於確定的案件做個案研討的時候有呈現出一個狀況，因為所謂的機密資料必須是要經過國防部判定它的屬性，這些資料是屬於哪種機密，是屬於國家機密，或國防應秘密，或國防以外的應秘密，甚至只是一般的文書，都是要經過國防部來判定它的屬性，還有種類、保密期間，這個是法院必須尊重的。個案中也有發生過，因為偵查的時候，如果你羈押人，他們辦案期間全部就只有4個月時間（羈押期間），所以常常因為偵查期間不夠，有碰過在偵查中這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候就起訴了，所以法院必須就這一些……因為有時候起訴罪數非常多，甚至這個個案就起訴了36項的罪，就要一個一個去問到底是哪一種機密，像這一種情況就會涉及到時間上的延長，甚至有判定回來之後，其實根本就不是屬於機密，那就不構成犯罪，跟構成要件不符合，就必須要判無罪的情形。","委員剛才有講到一個情況，關於最後產生的風險，等於是犯罪的損害有多大，這是量刑其中一個很大的因素，我們所建議法官的焦點團體，焦點團體包括國防部，還有國安局等團體，他們建議法院辦理國安案件犯罪態樣的量刑審酌注意事項，其中一個很重要的就是產生的風險評估，這個部分我們也是尊重主責機關，像是國防部，他們有時候回復的內容會比較簡略，或是比較抽象。有以上的一些情形。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以問題就來了，我們列席所有的單位，你們不是在看戲，跟你們有很重大的關係，一個案子到底最後法官會判出來會是怎樣？其實很多都是各個單位的問題，法官在做獨立審判的時候，有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實，常常都會影響到最後案件具體的判決。","譬如說一個案子到最後罪責是不是相當？判決做出來，你也要說得通，老百姓才有辦法去信服。本席為什麼今天再一次請司法院上來？原因就是我們接下來如果要恢復到軍事審判的話，這個制度的設計裡面，我們最擔心的像比如說國防部，法官的地位到底是什麼？對於軍法官專業的養成，你們真的準備好了嗎？因為你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的，到真正有急迫的時候，你們真的有辦法去運作嗎？請說明。"],["王處長正誼：委員好，我是國防部法律事務司法紀調查處處長。針對委員垂詢的這個部分，軍法官在103年之後，確實沒有從事偵審的工作，但是在未來如果修法恢復之後，我們會跟司法院也好、法務部也好，會針對訓練部分來做加強，其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分，其實是沒有太多問題，未來針對不管是偵察技巧或是審判上應該要注意的事情，我們會跟相關機關來做協調、訓練，以上。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是比較懷疑，不是說他的程度不好，有時候那個文化真的會不同，比如上尉，你們上尉多久一定要升上去，否則就要強制退伍？17年，對不對？"],["王處長正誼：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法官是有終身保障。"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，軍法官的部分確實是軍官，但是他也是審判法上的法官。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然，他是軍官嘛！他在審判的時候，當然他也叫做法官，可是跟普通法院的法官，就是不一樣。普通法官地位的保障、審判的獨立比較有辦法確保。如果是軍法官，涉及到他升遷的問題，還有軍階，這個是不是毫無影響到他審判的時候的獨立性，這個其實都值得去探討。"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，這個我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然啦！所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看，大家在看這整個軍法官是不是專業性不足？制度上的設計是不是有漏洞？要怎麼樣補強？尤其是軍法官的身分跟普通法院的法官也不一樣，就變成身分不明啊！有升遷壓力問題的時候，會涉及到整個審判獨立的保障。我希望未來整個制度的改革，你們可以好好的趕快去提出這樣的一個制度上的設計，但是以目前來看，比如你們軍法官有調到各地檢署或法院跟著他們一起學習及協助辦案。"],["王處長正誼：調到地檢署協助辦案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，借協助辦案，問題是你們辦的也未必是國安案件。"],["王處長正誼：軍事案件都有協助。"],["莊委員瑞雄：畢竟還是有本質上的不同，至於剛剛所提到的，就教副秘書長有關法官在量刑的部分，當然你們有類似參考標準的準則在，但那個部分是不是太過於簡略？應該要更具體或者怎麼樣在制度上再作精進？否則涉及到的判決，常常有時候跟社會上的認知落差會很大，這部分司法院也應該跟國防部、法務部或者相關的單位，大家共同再做研擬，司法到最後最重要的還是要回歸於人民對它的信賴，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，所有登記發言委員都已發言完畢，詢答結束。","請法務部及調查局在一個月內提供給我有關2023年到2024年立委大選期間，違反選罷法及反滲透法的案件中有簽結不起訴，還有緩起訴的件數，在緩起訴處分的件數中，已經職權送再議的案件數，還有整理判決無罪的理由，因為這些資料對我們將來有關反滲透法的偵辦及法律問題是否要修法，我覺得很重要。再次麻煩請法務部跟調查局能夠在一個月內提供給我這一份報告，因為從目前我所看到的數據，有關反滲透法簽結不起訴的比例真的非常高，也就是最後一審判有罪的比例已經很低，還不知道最後確定判有罪的會到多低？這才能夠有利於將來對於反滲透法的修法，我們希望要把它精緻化，好，謝謝各位。","有關委員質詢要求提供的相關資料，或是以書面答復的，請相關資料儘速送交個別委員及本會；委員翁曉玲、陳冠廷所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄及刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面回復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}}