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0.873}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 432.45, \"end\": 432.47, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:16,076 --> 00:00:21,844\n謝謝主席那有請這個有請部長還有那個大局局長麻煩部長局長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:29,929 --> 00:00:56,560\n好部長局長好那這個我這個會期還沒有過來這邊我不知道這邊可以問那麼多個案我覺得是說這個不太妥當但是我還是要釐清一下就是說因為我是要問忠誠義務的事情剛剛我在下面聽實在是有點受不了那第一個就是說剛剛有提到這一個韓國瑜那時候有1300多件我還是要講一下這1300多件是不合格數他死亡是\n\n3\n00:00:57,140 --> 00:01:11,385\n死亡是9595佔0.3%那像這一次以張宏祿委員為例他的死亡率是7%那剛剛有提到郭台銘因為郭台銘的那一個分數是100多萬份所以他的那個佔的是\n\n4\n00:01:12,145 --> 00:01:30,628\n我看一下我剛才按了一下計算機百分之0.005啦所以就是說死亡連署這件事情其實它有一個誤差範圍在誤差範圍之下通常來講就是要看到底是不是有偽造的情勢那像基隆這一件也是一樣我看他們在問的時候他們就是想說這些交出來的人\n\n5\n00:01:31,129 --> 00:01:51,128\n明明他可能就已經死他不一定是死亡他可能跟死亡無關但有沒有偽造的情形是他個別看但今天在這一個國民黨所發起的罷免運動裡面其實很明顯的可以發現但是跟名冊有關因為他們自己就有說他們抄名冊嘛所以他跟個別有人交出來有可能偽造跟你抄名冊這是兩件完全不同的事情\n\n6\n00:01:52,549 --> 00:02:18,351\n把這個都全部混在一起講然後這都是個案我是覺得在國會的殿堂這樣說真的不是很妥當所以這個這也只能請部長就是說針對個案的部分可能不能夠回答得太多啦剛聽起來應該都是有警守這個分際但是說真的我是不希望就是我只是要來問別的事情但是看到這樣的一個局面那但是接下來我想問一下就是這一個忠誠考核的這件事情就是說\n\n7\n00:02:21,038 --> 00:02:38,966\n這個終審考核我認為有幾個階段第一個就是他到底是要對誰然後再來就是他什麼時候要查還要查什麼內容大概就這三個那這個查的對象我那時候在看你們的今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說因為立院也有公職人員那立院的公職人員是可以查的這個沒問題\n\n8\n00:02:40,046 --> 00:03:04,424\n對不對他包含在這個裡面嘛但是就是說如果我們只要把這一個範圍稍微擴大一下因為現在的範圍有點窄但是畢竟他是公職人員如果請調查舉查可能還合理但如果一旦進入到譬如說助理的部分可能就會打一個問號所以我在這邊想問一下就是第一個就是說目前機要的部分是有包含在這一個那個辦法嗎就是說一個涉及什麼XXX那個辦法裡面機要有包含在裡面嗎\n\n9\n00:03:06,317 --> 00:03:27,693\n現在的一千三百多人有沒有機要報告委員目前有部分的部會他的機要人員是有在這個查核表裡面但是剛剛委員提到立法院的公職人員目前立法院是沒有提列沒有在裡面的所以這個範圍當然這個設成第一個機要是不是應該更大範圍的第一個\n\n10\n00:03:30,715 --> 00:03:59,795\n第二個就是說立法院如果他是公職人員我覺得是有機會因為他是公職人員這有機會然後第三個就是說呢這一個可能接觸的人員剛剛逸川有提到那個比如說保全啊清潔啊因為在美國他就分這三大類第一大類就是那種高度風險的就是跟國家機密有關的那第二大類就是一些委外廠商因為有時候委外廠商也會接觸到嘛所以他也要做securitycheck這個careers然後第三種就是他其實不應該接觸到但是可能接觸到比如說保全\n\n11\n00:04:00,675 --> 00:04:25,446\n清潔他們是把這三類都納入那因為這個是畢竟是辦法我是在想說我們有沒有可能修一個稍微先動一下母法但是這個辦法再做一個相對應的修正那這個可能到最後我們再來做這個討論因為這個範圍我覺得會有一個不夠大的問題但是範圍雖然有不夠大但是範圍有時候一旦遇到利潤有可能會遇到一些障礙就像剛剛提到像助理這個部分因為如果助理的查核\n\n12\n00:04:26,366 --> 00:04:43,272\n是交給調查局來吵和他們一定會講說那我如果說我正式目前我是反對黨你怎麼可以來吵我助理什麼等等之類可能又會有這樣的一個聲音所以這個到底該怎麼做我是有點擔心因為如果留給立法院做聽起來是合理但是問題是立法院剛剛內部自己做的話立法院沒有那個專長\n\n13\n00:04:44,815 --> 00:05:08,802\n所以到最後是要怎麼去做這個協作我覺得可能變得很重要你說立法院我們不管是院長或者其他層級的人叫他去做這種securitycheck我覺得是做不到的啦所以我覺得這個要考慮一下我覺得這可以思考一下那第二個查核時機啦這個剛剛其實已經有提過就是說時間點就是說就任以前轉職什麼等等之類那時候要查一次嘛對不對那再來就是說中間有可能五年有可能八年要再查一次然後再來還有離職以後\n\n14\n00:05:10,782 --> 00:05:38,989\n這個離職以後相關的規範我們目前好像針對比如說像一些退休的居退休的居人啊什麼等等之類的有做但顯然那個範圍又跟前面的有點不一樣所以那個範圍要怎麼去一致化就是前中後我覺得這很重要那最後就是一個查核內容因為我現在看目前那個辦法裡面內容就是有沒有附中啦有沒有這個有沒有這個家人有沒有在中國做什麼做什麼特定的事情啦但是我看美國的查核項目其實\n\n15\n00:05:40,389 --> 00:06:06,650\n蠻多的我們有可能要全面的盤點一下因為像剛剛有些委員提到一些財產的狀況啦我覺得這可能就是一個就是說他們那種中層查核項目甚至有時候可以高達千項那我們可能可以把人員分成高中低三種不同的風險來做盤點那所以我覺得之後我覺得可能要儘速來討論就是我們在這邊無法我們要怎麼做然後那邊辦法可以做什麼樣的修改我覺得這幾個層次可能這可能蠻快需要是需要比較快速的盤點因為這個東西其實說起來是有點複雜啦\n\n16\n00:06:09,392 --> 00:06:37,731\n所以可能要請法務部還要請大局針對這件事情來多幫忙好謝謝委員那最後就是我還是不太想講到那個事情不過這個因為我們這個吳委員他也是召委就是說搜索的部分也有同意搜索等等之類會有各式各樣的方式所以可能我知道剛剛可能沒有什麼太多時間回答但是就是雖然個案不能回答但是在通案的部分比如說目前我們搜索的這個太陽可能有哪些\n\n17\n00:06:38,431 --> 00:07:04,465\n然後當然說當然並沒有剛剛其實是每一個個案的不同他發動的方式不同嗎有些可能是交件的人有時候可能是連署了有可能是提供名冊的人各式各樣不一樣那可能要稍微釐清一下但是還是希望我們不要再針對這種偵查中的個案在這個國會的殿堂上面這個我說真的我今天早上因為我聽因為我想知道別人問忠誠考核醫務的狀況我從早上聽到現在還是聽了不少個案那再請法務部和調查局要多多注意好謝謝謝謝\n\n18\n00:07:06,665 --> 00:07:12,470\n好謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請吳思耀委員發言那吳思耀委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n16076\t21844\t謝謝主席 那有請這個有請部長還有那個大局局長麻煩部長 局長委員好\n29929\t56560\t好部長 局長好那這個我這個會期還沒有過來這邊我不知道這邊可以問那麼多個案我覺得是說這個不太妥當但是我還是要釐清一下就是說因為我是要問忠誠義務的事情剛剛我在下面聽實在是有點受不了那第一個就是說剛剛有提到這一個韓國瑜那時候有1300多件我還是要講一下這1300多件是不合格數他死亡是\n57140\t71385\t死亡是95 95佔0.3%那像這一次以張宏祿委員為例他的死亡率是7%那剛剛有提到郭台銘因為郭台銘的那一個分數是100多萬份所以他的那個佔的是\n72145\t90628\t我看一下我剛才按了一下計算機百分之0.005啦所以就是說死亡連署這件事情其實它有一個誤差範圍在誤差範圍之下通常來講就是要看到底是不是有偽造的情勢那像基隆這一件也是一樣我看他們在問的時候他們就是想說這些交出來的人\n91129\t111128\t明明他可能就已經死他不一定是死亡他可能跟死亡無關但有沒有偽造的情形是他個別看但今天在這一個國民黨所發起的罷免運動裡面其實很明顯的可以發現但是跟名冊有關因為他們自己就有說他們抄名冊嘛所以他跟個別有人交出來有可能偽造跟你抄名冊這是兩件完全不同的事情\n112549\t138351\t把這個都全部混在一起講然後這都是個案我是覺得在國會的殿堂這樣說真的不是很妥當所以這個這也只能請部長就是說針對個案的部分可能不能夠回答得太多啦剛聽起來應該都是有警守這個分際但是說真的我是不希望就是我只是要來問別的事情但是看到這樣的一個局面那但是接下來我想問一下就是這一個忠誠考核的這件事情就是說\n141038\t158966\t這個終審考核我認為有幾個階段第一個就是他到底是要對誰然後再來就是他什麼時候要查還要查什麼內容大概就這三個那這個查的對象我那時候在看你們的今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說因為立院也有公職人員那立院的公職人員是可以查的這個沒問題\n160046\t184424\t對不對 他包含在這個裡面嘛但是就是說如果我們只要把這一個範圍稍微擴大一下因為現在的範圍有點窄但是畢竟他是公職人員如果請調查舉查可能還合理但如果一旦進入到譬如說助理的部分可能就會打一個問號所以我在這邊想問一下就是第一個就是說目前機要的部分是有包含在這一個那個辦法嗎就是說一個涉及什麼XXX那個辦法裡面機要有包含在裡面嗎\n186317\t207693\t現在的一千三百多人有沒有機要報告委員目前有部分的部會他的機要人員是有在這個查核表裡面但是剛剛委員提到立法院的公職人員目前立法院是沒有提列沒有在裡面的所以這個範圍當然這個設成第一個機要是不是應該更大範圍的第一個\n210715\t239795\t第二個就是說立法院如果他是公職人員我覺得是有機會因為他是公職人員這有機會然後第三個就是說呢這一個可能接觸的人員剛剛逸川有提到那個比如說保全啊清潔啊因為在美國他就分這三大類第一大類就是那種高度風險的就是跟國家機密有關的那第二大類就是一些委外廠商因為有時候委外廠商也會接觸到嘛所以他也要做security check這個careers然後第三種就是他其實不應該接觸到但是可能接觸到比如說保全\n240675\t265446\t清潔他們是把這三類都納入那因為這個是畢竟是辦法我是在想說我們有沒有可能修一個稍微先動一下母法但是這個辦法再做一個相對應的修正那這個可能到最後我們再來做這個討論因為這個範圍我覺得會有一個不夠大的問題但是範圍雖然有不夠大但是範圍有時候一旦遇到利潤有可能會遇到一些障礙就像剛剛提到像助理這個部分因為如果助理的查核\n266366\t283272\t是交給調查局來吵和他們一定會講說那我如果說我正式目前我是反對黨你怎麼可以來吵我助理什麼等等之類可能又會有這樣的一個聲音所以這個到底該怎麼做我是有點擔心因為如果留給立法院做聽起來是合理但是問題是立法院剛剛內部自己做的話立法院沒有那個專長\n284815\t308802\t所以到最後是要怎麼去做這個協作我覺得可能變得很重要你說立法院我們不管是院長或者其他層級的人叫他去做這種security check我覺得是做不到的啦所以我覺得這個要考慮一下我覺得這可以思考一下那第二個查核時機啦這個剛剛其實已經有提過就是說時間點就是說就任以前轉職什麼等等之類那時候要查一次嘛對不對那再來就是說中間有可能五年有可能八年要再查一次然後再來還有離職以後\n310782\t338989\t這個離職以後相關的規範我們目前好像針對比如說像一些退休的居 退休的居人啊什麼等等之類的有做但顯然那個範圍又跟前面的有點不一樣所以那個範圍要怎麼去一致化就是前 中 後我覺得這很重要那最後就是一個查核內容因為我現在看目前那個辦法裡面內容就是有沒有附中啦有沒有這個有沒有這個家人有沒有在中國做什麼做什麼特定的事情啦但是我看美國的查核項目其實\n340389\t366650\t蠻多的我們有可能要全面的盤點一下因為像剛剛有些委員提到一些財產的狀況啦我覺得這可能就是一個就是說他們那種中層查核項目甚至有時候可以高達千項那我們可能可以把人員分成高中低三種不同的風險來做盤點那所以我覺得之後我覺得可能要儘速來討論就是我們在這邊無法我們要怎麼做然後那邊辦法可以做什麼樣的修改我覺得這幾個層次可能這可能蠻快需要是需要比較快速的盤點因為這個東西其實說起來是有點複雜啦\n369392\t397731\t所以可能要請法務部還要請大局針對這件事情來多幫忙好 謝謝委員那最後就是我還是不太想講到那個事情不過這個因為我們這個吳委員他也是召委就是說搜索的部分也有同意搜索等等之類會有各式各樣的方式所以可能我知道剛剛可能沒有什麼太多時間回答但是就是雖然個案不能回答但是在通案的部分比如說目前我們搜索的這個太陽可能有哪些\n398431\t424465\t然後當然說當然並沒有剛剛其實是每一個個案的不同他發動的方式不同嗎有些可能是交件的人有時候可能是連署了有可能是提供名冊的人各式各樣不一樣那可能要稍微釐清一下但是還是希望我們不要再針對這種偵查中的個案在這個國會的殿堂上面這個我說真的我今天早上因為我聽因為我想知道別人問忠誠考核醫務的狀況我從早上聽到現在還是聽了不少個案那再請法務部和調查局要多多注意好 謝謝謝謝\n426665\t432470\t好謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請吳思耀委員發言那吳思耀委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘\n","txt":"謝謝主席 那有請這個有請部長還有那個大局局長麻煩部長 局長委員好\n好部長 局長好那這個我這個會期還沒有過來這邊我不知道這邊可以問那麼多個案我覺得是說這個不太妥當但是我還是要釐清一下就是說因為我是要問忠誠義務的事情剛剛我在下面聽實在是有點受不了那第一個就是說剛剛有提到這一個韓國瑜那時候有1300多件我還是要講一下這1300多件是不合格數他死亡是\n死亡是95 95佔0.3%那像這一次以張宏祿委員為例他的死亡率是7%那剛剛有提到郭台銘因為郭台銘的那一個分數是100多萬份所以他的那個佔的是\n我看一下我剛才按了一下計算機百分之0.005啦所以就是說死亡連署這件事情其實它有一個誤差範圍在誤差範圍之下通常來講就是要看到底是不是有偽造的情勢那像基隆這一件也是一樣我看他們在問的時候他們就是想說這些交出來的人\n明明他可能就已經死他不一定是死亡他可能跟死亡無關但有沒有偽造的情形是他個別看但今天在這一個國民黨所發起的罷免運動裡面其實很明顯的可以發現但是跟名冊有關因為他們自己就有說他們抄名冊嘛所以他跟個別有人交出來有可能偽造跟你抄名冊這是兩件完全不同的事情\n把這個都全部混在一起講然後這都是個案我是覺得在國會的殿堂這樣說真的不是很妥當所以這個這也只能請部長就是說針對個案的部分可能不能夠回答得太多啦剛聽起來應該都是有警守這個分際但是說真的我是不希望就是我只是要來問別的事情但是看到這樣的一個局面那但是接下來我想問一下就是這一個忠誠考核的這件事情就是說\n這個終審考核我認為有幾個階段第一個就是他到底是要對誰然後再來就是他什麼時候要查還要查什麼內容大概就這三個那這個查的對象我那時候在看你們的今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說因為立院也有公職人員那立院的公職人員是可以查的這個沒問題\n對不對 他包含在這個裡面嘛但是就是說如果我們只要把這一個範圍稍微擴大一下因為現在的範圍有點窄但是畢竟他是公職人員如果請調查舉查可能還合理但如果一旦進入到譬如說助理的部分可能就會打一個問號所以我在這邊想問一下就是第一個就是說目前機要的部分是有包含在這一個那個辦法嗎就是說一個涉及什麼XXX那個辦法裡面機要有包含在裡面嗎\n現在的一千三百多人有沒有機要報告委員目前有部分的部會他的機要人員是有在這個查核表裡面但是剛剛委員提到立法院的公職人員目前立法院是沒有提列沒有在裡面的所以這個範圍當然這個設成第一個機要是不是應該更大範圍的第一個\n第二個就是說立法院如果他是公職人員我覺得是有機會因為他是公職人員這有機會然後第三個就是說呢這一個可能接觸的人員剛剛逸川有提到那個比如說保全啊清潔啊因為在美國他就分這三大類第一大類就是那種高度風險的就是跟國家機密有關的那第二大類就是一些委外廠商因為有時候委外廠商也會接觸到嘛所以他也要做security check這個careers然後第三種就是他其實不應該接觸到但是可能接觸到比如說保全\n清潔他們是把這三類都納入那因為這個是畢竟是辦法我是在想說我們有沒有可能修一個稍微先動一下母法但是這個辦法再做一個相對應的修正那這個可能到最後我們再來做這個討論因為這個範圍我覺得會有一個不夠大的問題但是範圍雖然有不夠大但是範圍有時候一旦遇到利潤有可能會遇到一些障礙就像剛剛提到像助理這個部分因為如果助理的查核\n是交給調查局來吵和他們一定會講說那我如果說我正式目前我是反對黨你怎麼可以來吵我助理什麼等等之類可能又會有這樣的一個聲音所以這個到底該怎麼做我是有點擔心因為如果留給立法院做聽起來是合理但是問題是立法院剛剛內部自己做的話立法院沒有那個專長\n所以到最後是要怎麼去做這個協作我覺得可能變得很重要你說立法院我們不管是院長或者其他層級的人叫他去做這種security check我覺得是做不到的啦所以我覺得這個要考慮一下我覺得這可以思考一下那第二個查核時機啦這個剛剛其實已經有提過就是說時間點就是說就任以前轉職什麼等等之類那時候要查一次嘛對不對那再來就是說中間有可能五年有可能八年要再查一次然後再來還有離職以後\n這個離職以後相關的規範我們目前好像針對比如說像一些退休的居 退休的居人啊什麼等等之類的有做但顯然那個範圍又跟前面的有點不一樣所以那個範圍要怎麼去一致化就是前 中 後我覺得這很重要那最後就是一個查核內容因為我現在看目前那個辦法裡面內容就是有沒有附中啦有沒有這個有沒有這個家人有沒有在中國做什麼做什麼特定的事情啦但是我看美國的查核項目其實\n蠻多的我們有可能要全面的盤點一下因為像剛剛有些委員提到一些財產的狀況啦我覺得這可能就是一個就是說他們那種中層查核項目甚至有時候可以高達千項那我們可能可以把人員分成高中低三種不同的風險來做盤點那所以我覺得之後我覺得可能要儘速來討論就是我們在這邊無法我們要怎麼做然後那邊辦法可以做什麼樣的修改我覺得這幾個層次可能這可能蠻快需要是需要比較快速的盤點因為這個東西其實說起來是有點複雜啦\n所以可能要請法務部還要請大局針對這件事情來多幫忙好 謝謝委員那最後就是我還是不太想講到那個事情不過這個因為我們這個吳委員他也是召委就是說搜索的部分也有同意搜索等等之類會有各式各樣的方式所以可能我知道剛剛可能沒有什麼太多時間回答但是就是雖然個案不能回答但是在通案的部分比如說目前我們搜索的這個太陽可能有哪些\n然後當然說當然並沒有剛剛其實是每一個個案的不同他發動的方式不同嗎有些可能是交件的人有時候可能是連署了有可能是提供名冊的人各式各樣不一樣那可能要稍微釐清一下但是還是希望我們不要再針對這種偵查中的個案在這個國會的殿堂上面這個我說真的我今天早上因為我聽因為我想知道別人問忠誠考核醫務的狀況我從早上聽到現在還是聽了不少個案那再請法務部和調查局要多多注意好 謝謝謝謝\n好謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請吳思耀委員發言那吳思耀委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:16.076 --> 00:21.844\n謝謝主席那有請這個有請部長還有那個大局局長麻煩部長局長委員好\n\n00:29.929 --> 00:56.560\n好部長局長好那這個我這個會期還沒有過來這邊我不知道這邊可以問那麼多個案我覺得是說這個不太妥當但是我還是要釐清一下就是說因為我是要問忠誠義務的事情剛剛我在下面聽實在是有點受不了那第一個就是說剛剛有提到這一個韓國瑜那時候有1300多件我還是要講一下這1300多件是不合格數他死亡是\n\n00:57.140 --> 01:11.385\n死亡是9595佔0.3%那像這一次以張宏祿委員為例他的死亡率是7%那剛剛有提到郭台銘因為郭台銘的那一個分數是100多萬份所以他的那個佔的是\n\n01:12.145 --> 01:30.628\n我看一下我剛才按了一下計算機百分之0.005啦所以就是說死亡連署這件事情其實它有一個誤差範圍在誤差範圍之下通常來講就是要看到底是不是有偽造的情勢那像基隆這一件也是一樣我看他們在問的時候他們就是想說這些交出來的人\n\n01:31.129 --> 01:51.128\n明明他可能就已經死他不一定是死亡他可能跟死亡無關但有沒有偽造的情形是他個別看但今天在這一個國民黨所發起的罷免運動裡面其實很明顯的可以發現但是跟名冊有關因為他們自己就有說他們抄名冊嘛所以他跟個別有人交出來有可能偽造跟你抄名冊這是兩件完全不同的事情\n\n01:52.549 --> 02:18.351\n把這個都全部混在一起講然後這都是個案我是覺得在國會的殿堂這樣說真的不是很妥當所以這個這也只能請部長就是說針對個案的部分可能不能夠回答得太多啦剛聽起來應該都是有警守這個分際但是說真的我是不希望就是我只是要來問別的事情但是看到這樣的一個局面那但是接下來我想問一下就是這一個忠誠考核的這件事情就是說\n\n02:21.038 --> 02:38.966\n這個終審考核我認為有幾個階段第一個就是他到底是要對誰然後再來就是他什麼時候要查還要查什麼內容大概就這三個那這個查的對象我那時候在看你們的今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說因為立院也有公職人員那立院的公職人員是可以查的這個沒問題\n\n02:40.046 --> 03:04.424\n對不對他包含在這個裡面嘛但是就是說如果我們只要把這一個範圍稍微擴大一下因為現在的範圍有點窄但是畢竟他是公職人員如果請調查舉查可能還合理但如果一旦進入到譬如說助理的部分可能就會打一個問號所以我在這邊想問一下就是第一個就是說目前機要的部分是有包含在這一個那個辦法嗎就是說一個涉及什麼XXX那個辦法裡面機要有包含在裡面嗎\n\n03:06.317 --> 03:27.693\n現在的一千三百多人有沒有機要報告委員目前有部分的部會他的機要人員是有在這個查核表裡面但是剛剛委員提到立法院的公職人員目前立法院是沒有提列沒有在裡面的所以這個範圍當然這個設成第一個機要是不是應該更大範圍的第一個\n\n03:30.715 --> 03:59.795\n第二個就是說立法院如果他是公職人員我覺得是有機會因為他是公職人員這有機會然後第三個就是說呢這一個可能接觸的人員剛剛逸川有提到那個比如說保全啊清潔啊因為在美國他就分這三大類第一大類就是那種高度風險的就是跟國家機密有關的那第二大類就是一些委外廠商因為有時候委外廠商也會接觸到嘛所以他也要做securitycheck這個careers然後第三種就是他其實不應該接觸到但是可能接觸到比如說保全\n\n04:00.675 --> 04:25.446\n清潔他們是把這三類都納入那因為這個是畢竟是辦法我是在想說我們有沒有可能修一個稍微先動一下母法但是這個辦法再做一個相對應的修正那這個可能到最後我們再來做這個討論因為這個範圍我覺得會有一個不夠大的問題但是範圍雖然有不夠大但是範圍有時候一旦遇到利潤有可能會遇到一些障礙就像剛剛提到像助理這個部分因為如果助理的查核\n\n04:26.366 --> 04:43.272\n是交給調查局來吵和他們一定會講說那我如果說我正式目前我是反對黨你怎麼可以來吵我助理什麼等等之類可能又會有這樣的一個聲音所以這個到底該怎麼做我是有點擔心因為如果留給立法院做聽起來是合理但是問題是立法院剛剛內部自己做的話立法院沒有那個專長\n\n04:44.815 --> 05:08.802\n所以到最後是要怎麼去做這個協作我覺得可能變得很重要你說立法院我們不管是院長或者其他層級的人叫他去做這種securitycheck我覺得是做不到的啦所以我覺得這個要考慮一下我覺得這可以思考一下那第二個查核時機啦這個剛剛其實已經有提過就是說時間點就是說就任以前轉職什麼等等之類那時候要查一次嘛對不對那再來就是說中間有可能五年有可能八年要再查一次然後再來還有離職以後\n\n05:10.782 --> 05:38.989\n這個離職以後相關的規範我們目前好像針對比如說像一些退休的居退休的居人啊什麼等等之類的有做但顯然那個範圍又跟前面的有點不一樣所以那個範圍要怎麼去一致化就是前中後我覺得這很重要那最後就是一個查核內容因為我現在看目前那個辦法裡面內容就是有沒有附中啦有沒有這個有沒有這個家人有沒有在中國做什麼做什麼特定的事情啦但是我看美國的查核項目其實\n\n05:40.389 --> 06:06.650\n蠻多的我們有可能要全面的盤點一下因為像剛剛有些委員提到一些財產的狀況啦我覺得這可能就是一個就是說他們那種中層查核項目甚至有時候可以高達千項那我們可能可以把人員分成高中低三種不同的風險來做盤點那所以我覺得之後我覺得可能要儘速來討論就是我們在這邊無法我們要怎麼做然後那邊辦法可以做什麼樣的修改我覺得這幾個層次可能這可能蠻快需要是需要比較快速的盤點因為這個東西其實說起來是有點複雜啦\n\n06:09.392 --> 06:37.731\n所以可能要請法務部還要請大局針對這件事情來多幫忙好謝謝委員那最後就是我還是不太想講到那個事情不過這個因為我們這個吳委員他也是召委就是說搜索的部分也有同意搜索等等之類會有各式各樣的方式所以可能我知道剛剛可能沒有什麼太多時間回答但是就是雖然個案不能回答但是在通案的部分比如說目前我們搜索的這個太陽可能有哪些\n\n06:38.431 --> 07:04.465\n然後當然說當然並沒有剛剛其實是每一個個案的不同他發動的方式不同嗎有些可能是交件的人有時候可能是連署了有可能是提供名冊的人各式各樣不一樣那可能要稍微釐清一下但是還是希望我們不要再針對這種偵查中的個案在這個國會的殿堂上面這個我說真的我今天早上因為我聽因為我想知道別人問忠誠考核醫務的狀況我從早上聽到現在還是聽了不少個案那再請法務部和調查局要多多注意好謝謝謝謝\n\n07:06.665 --> 07:12.470\n好謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請吳思耀委員發言那吳思耀委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":16.076,"end":21.844,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請這個有請部長還有那個大局局長麻煩部長 局長委員好"},{"start":29.929,"end":56.56,"text":"好部長 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謝謝謝謝"},{"start":426.665,"end":432.47,"text":"好謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請吳思耀委員發言那吳思耀委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":941,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時6分）謝謝主席，有請部長還有調查局局長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好、局長好。我這個會期還沒有過來這邊，我不知道這邊可以問那麼多個案，我覺得真的不太妥當，但是我還是要釐清一下，我也是要問忠誠義務的事情，剛我在下面聽實在是有點受不了啦！第一個，剛剛有提到韓國那時候有一千三百多件，我還是要講一下，這一千三百多件是不合格數，死亡是95，占0.3%；像這一次以張宏陸委員為例，他的死亡連署是7%；剛剛有提到郭台銘，因為郭台銘的份數是一百多萬份，所以他的那個占的是……我看一下，我剛才還按了一下計算機，0.005%，所以就是說死亡連署這件事情其實它有一個誤差範圍，在誤差範圍之下的，通常來講就是要看到底是不是有偽造的情事；像基隆這一件也是一樣，我看他們在問的時候，他們就是想說這些交出來的人，明明他可能就已經死……可能他不一定是死亡，他可能跟死亡無關，但有沒有偽造的情事要個別看。","今天在國民黨所發起的罷免運動裡面，其實很明顯地可以發現那是跟名冊有關，因為他們自己就有說他們抄名冊嘛，所以個人交出來可能有偽造跟抄名冊是兩件完全不同的事情，把這個都全部混在一起講，然後這又是個案，我是覺得在國會的殿堂這樣說真的不是很妥當啦，所以也只能請部長針對個案的部分不能夠回答得太多啦，剛剛聽起來應該都是有謹守這個分際，但說真的我是不希望……我只是要來問別的事情，但是看到這樣的一個局面。","但是接下來我想問一下忠誠考核的這件事情，忠誠考核我認為有幾個階段，第一個就是他到底是要對誰，然後再來就是他什麼時候要查還有查什麼內容，大概就這三個。這個查的對象，我那時候在看你們今天的報告裡面有特別提到，因為立院也有公職人員，立院的公職人員是可以查的，這個沒問題，對不對？他包含在這個裡面嘛！但是如果我們只要把這一個範圍稍微擴大一下，因為現在的範圍有點窄，但是畢竟他是公職人員，如果請調查局查可能還合理，但如果一旦進入到譬如說助理的部分，可能就會打一個問號，所以我在這邊想問一下，第一個，目前機要的部分是有包含在那個辦法嗎？就是有一個涉及什麼XXX那個辦法裡面，機要有沒有包含在裡面？現在的一千三百多有沒有機要？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，目前有部分的部會的機要人員是有在這個查核表裡面，但是剛剛委員提到就是立法院的公職人員，目前立法院是沒有提列。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，沒有在裡面的，對、對、對，所以這個範圍，當然這個射程就是……第一個，機要是不是應該更大範圍，這是第一個；第二個，立法院當中如果他是公職人員，我覺得是有機會，畢竟他是公職人員，這有機會；然後第三個就是可能接觸的人員，剛剛義川有提到比如說保全、清潔。因為在美國就分這三大類，第一大類就是那種高度風險的，就是跟國家機密有關的；第二大類就是一些委外廠商，因為有時候委外廠商也會接觸到，所以他也要做security check clearance；第三種是他其實不應該接觸到，但是可能接觸到，比如說保全、清潔，他們是把這三類都納入。","因為這個畢竟是辦法，我在想我們有沒有可能修一個……稍微先動一下母法，但是這個辦法再做一個相對應的修正？這個可能到時候我們再來做這個討論，因為這個範圍我覺得會有一個不夠大的問題，雖然範圍不夠大，但是範圍有時候一旦遇到立院，有可能會遇到一些障礙，就像剛剛提到助理這個部分，因為如果助理的查核是交給調查局來查核，他們一定會說目前我是反對黨，你怎麼可以來查我助理等等之類，可能又會有這樣的一個聲音，所以這個到底該怎麼做，我是有點擔心，因為如果留給立法院做，聽起來是合理，但問題是立法院內部自己做的話，立法院沒有那個專長，所以到時候要怎麼去協作我覺得可能會變得很重要，立法院不管是院長或者其他層級的人，叫他去做這種security check，我覺得是做不到的，所以我覺得這個要考慮一下，我覺得這可以思考一下。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：第二個是查核時機，這個剛剛其實已經有提過，時間點就是就任以前、轉職什麼等等之類，那時候要查一次嘛，對不對？再來是中間有可能五年、有可能八年要再查一次，再來還有離職以後，關於離職以後相關的規範，我們目前好像針對比如說像一些退休的軍人什麼等等之類的有做，但顯然那個範圍又跟前面有點不一樣，所以範圍要怎麼去一致化，就是前、中、後，我覺得這很重要。","最後就是查核內容，因為我現在看目前那個辦法裡面，內容就是有沒有赴中、家人有沒有在中國做什麼特定的事情，但是我看美國的查核項目其實蠻多的，我們有可能要全面的盤點一下。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為像剛剛有些委員提到一些財產的狀況，我覺得這可能就是一個，他們那種忠誠查核項目有時候甚至可以高達千項，我們可能可以把人員分成高、中、低三種不同的風險來做盤點。所以我覺得之後可能要儘速來討論，母法這邊我們要怎麼做，然後辦法可以做什麼樣的修改，我覺得這幾個層次可能需要比較快速的盤點，因為這個東西說起來其實是有點複雜啦！所以可能要請法務部還有調查局針對這件事情來多幫忙。"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後，我本來不太想講到那件事情，不過因為吳委員也是召委，就是說搜索的部分也有同意搜索等等之類各式各樣的方式，我知道剛剛可能沒有什麼太多時間回答，雖然個案不能回答，但是在通案的部分，比如說目前我們搜索的態樣可能有哪些，剛剛講的其實是每一個個案的不同，所以他發動的方式不同，有些可能是交件的人，有時候可能是連署人，有可能是提供名冊的人，各式各樣不一樣，那可能要稍微釐清一下，還是希望我們不要再針對這種偵查中的個案在這個國會的殿堂上面，我說真的，因為我今天早上聽……因為我想知道別人問忠誠考核義務的狀況，我從早上聽到現在也是聽了不少個案，再請法務部和調查局再多多注意，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。下一位請吳思瑤委員發言，吳思瑤委員發言完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}}