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{\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 1309.945, \"end\": 1310.405, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1310.405, \"end\": 1310.606, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1310.606, \"end\": 1310.626, \"score\": 0.041}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1310.626, \"end\": 1310.746, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1310.746, \"end\": 1310.766, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,172 --> 00:00:00,579\n臨近巡打謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:13,407 --> 00:00:33,482\n好先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到\n\n3\n00:00:34,042 --> 00:00:49,998\n所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會\n\n4\n00:00:51,219 --> 00:00:56,401\n那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責\n\n5\n00:01:20,352 --> 00:01:34,000\n王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會報告所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟\n\n6\n00:01:48,689 --> 00:01:50,809\n我們的調查局局長好部長局長在上週其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場吳思堯委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部\n\n7\n00:02:16,155 --> 00:02:28,666\n那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來\n\n8\n00:02:32,609 --> 00:02:58,921\n因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公\n\n9\n00:03:00,422 --> 00:03:24,058\n結果在當天搜索的時候竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機滑了三四個小時\n\n10\n00:03:25,509 --> 00:03:37,735\n我想請問如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下跟中山大同黨不何干\n\n11\n00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:55,229\n為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊\n\n12\n00:04:05,256 --> 00:04:29,589\n然後我也是被罷免的對象所以我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼\n\n13\n00:04:34,963 --> 00:04:55,133\n中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩義嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告齁\n\n14\n00:05:01,525 --> 00:05:26,418\n搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這一共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎\n\n15\n00:05:27,739 --> 00:05:32,104\n可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔\n\n16\n00:05:38,634 --> 00:06:03,987\n這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要別人我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎\n\n17\n00:06:06,735 --> 00:06:10,500\n我直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是\n\n18\n00:06:22,045 --> 00:06:46,773\n依法來處理的還叫依法處理依法到這種地步依法來打擊陣敵嗎而且跟委員報告我對各案的說索票可是你說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機讓他看手機的內容嗎可不可以可不可以來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎那是一個統一訴訟它是以訴索嘛\n\n19\n00:06:52,267 --> 00:07:14,473\n可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以那這有沒有濫權問題有沒有\n\n20\n00:07:19,634 --> 00:07:45,809\n既然法官都核准搜索票可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以按照你這樣講可以嗎\n\n21\n00:07:47,518 --> 00:08:03,834\n這個是個案我不表示意見那我想我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎好再來看好再來看我跟你講你們這一陣子無法無天來在高雄高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站要求把現場工作人員帶走\n\n22\n00:08:10,660 --> 00:08:30,340\n然後要求就說你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票就要把人帶走好請問一下這個是合法的執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票去連署站要求把人帶走可以嗎\n\n23\n00:08:33,197 --> 00:08:51,346\n這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太\n\n24\n00:08:53,487 --> 00:09:19,504\n重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有\n\n25\n00:09:22,006 --> 00:09:29,374\n還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來\n\n26\n00:09:42,967 --> 00:09:48,892\n這不叫司法干預什麼叫做司法干預再來我們在網路上也流傳影片齁然後這個霸雙節的在高雄霸來來把這個影片放一下\n\n27\n00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:21,392\n政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下\n\n28\n00:10:25,194 --> 00:10:26,855\n罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦\n\n29\n00:10:42,145 --> 00:11:01,394\n我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就是刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪\n\n30\n00:11:09,861 --> 00:11:19,886\n五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛不一罪一罰啊那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長講成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來\n\n31\n00:11:30,430 --> 00:11:53,663\n中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦\n\n32\n00:11:56,104 --> 00:12:12,369\n按鈴按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎\n\n33\n00:12:16,153 --> 00:12:20,295\n這個是一個個案執行的一個又來個案了齁對啊又來個案每個都是個案了這個合法的嘛部長這個是這個是投法你以前怎麼不辦啊投法你以前有辦嗎你還好意思在這邊你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦來再來看再來看我跟你講你們哪選擇性辦辦在這邊\n\n34\n00:12:39,103 --> 00:12:40,765\n韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了\n\n35\n00:12:59,994 --> 00:13:01,375\n有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談\n\n36\n00:13:18,011 --> 00:13:23,192\n有沒有搜索有沒有生壓有沒有嘛通通是按照委書或文書辦嘛還有個資嘛涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣當然不一樣報名韓國瑜不用不用搜索不用約談不用生壓不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴哪一個被生壓來你告訴我\n\n37\n00:13:45,716 --> 00:14:12,456\n這個個案我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了沒有辦嘛而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的而且要起訴後來呢這個檢察長不願意辦而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後才不起訴這也是個案喔按照部長的說法也是個案喔\n\n38\n00:14:13,317 --> 00:14:19,760\n不會辦不能辦不敢辦好你以為只有這一個嗎再來再來怎麼會不同呢一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同部長你在這邊凹吧說謊吧哪有什麼不同他是不是用偽造文書來辦是不是\n\n39\n00:14:36,810 --> 00:14:47,534\n這是兩個不同的案件當然一個罷免韓國瑜一個罷免吳思堯啊不一樣啊真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊給他辦到死啊好再來連署除了罷免之外總統副總統選舉如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍也需要連署好5271名死人\n\n40\n00:15:05,083 --> 00:15:16,112\n連署這個呢這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎\n\n41\n00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:53,260\n2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就偵辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有不一樣有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有\n\n42\n00:15:58,487 --> 00:16:04,536\n我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊有沒有\n\n43\n00:16:05,774 --> 00:16:11,577\n每個個案是不一樣為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發\n\n44\n00:16:29,304 --> 00:16:47,846\n但是呢沒有第一個沒有登門去按門鈴沒有去約談沒有去搜索沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以你的最後的結論是什麼我告訴大家那個就叫做選擇性辦案\n\n45\n00:16:49,690 --> 00:17:04,022\n那個就叫做雙標辦案那個就叫做辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做依照上意來辦案不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦這個證據嘛那部長你為什麼你說我當時沒有當部長當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶為什麼你一個都沒有約談\n\n46\n00:17:13,911 --> 00:17:34,065\n蛤你也不敢批評啊對不對OK啊那個個案呢所以我直接說你們現在所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案為什麼同樣的個案我問你大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦是不是\n\n47\n00:17:36,271 --> 00:18:01,805\n他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題\n\n48\n00:18:03,566 --> 00:18:29,178\n現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正\n\n49\n00:18:30,439 --> 00:18:45,856\n局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦\n\n50\n00:18:47,615 --> 00:19:09,702\n這不叫做這個我真的想請問民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛\n\n51\n00:19:10,984 --> 00:19:21,906\n他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛對付我王宏威嗎\n\n52\n00:19:23,462 --> 00:19:41,857\n對不對我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係\n\n53\n00:19:43,311 --> 00:20:01,119\n你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來局長你告訴我為什麼憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走\n\n54\n00:20:13,345 --> 00:20:19,994\n因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情\n\n55\n00:20:26,929 --> 00:20:44,970\n你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這什麼叫依法偵辦依什麼法依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係\n\n56\n00:20:46,411 --> 00:20:52,313\n什麼叫依法偵辦來部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法\n\n57\n00:21:14,437 --> 00:21:32,250\n以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以這是個案的又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊\n\n58\n00:21:44,295 --> 00:21:50,766\n在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n172\t579\t臨近巡打 謝謝\n13407\t33482\t好 先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到\n34042\t49998\t所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會\n51219\t56401\t那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責\n80352\t94000\t王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會報告所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟\n108689\t110809\t我們的調查局局長好 部長 局長在上週 其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場 吳思堯委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部\n136155\t148666\t那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來\n152609\t178921\t因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公\n180422\t204058\t結果在當天搜索的時候 竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長 他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室 而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機 滑了三四個小時\n205509\t217735\t我想請問 如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下 跟中山大同黨不何干\n219060\t235229\t為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊\n245256\t269589\t然後我也是被罷免的對象所以我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼\n274963\t295133\t中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩義嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長 局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎 依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告齁\n301525\t326418\t搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這一共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎\n327739\t332104\t可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔\n338634\t363987\t這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要別人我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎\n366735\t370500\t我直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是\n382045\t406773\t依法來處理的 還叫依法處理 依法到這種地步 依法來打擊陣敵嗎而且跟委員報告 我對各案的說索票 可是你說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機讓他看手機的內容嗎 可不可以 可不可以 來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛 那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部 沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎 那是一個統一訴訟 它是以訴索嘛\n412267\t434473\t可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以那這有沒有濫權問題 有沒有\n439634\t465809\t既然法官都核准搜索票可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以 按照你這樣講可以嗎\n467518\t483834\t這個是個案我不表示意見 那我想 我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎 好 再來看好 再來看 我跟你講 你們這一陣子無法無天來 在高雄 高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站 要求把現場工作人員帶走\n490660\t510340\t然後要求 就說 你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走好 請問一下 這個是合法的執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票 去連署站 要求把人帶走 可以嗎\n513197\t531346\t這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太\n533487\t559504\t重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有\n562006\t569374\t還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢 跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎 跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來\n582967\t588892\t這不叫司法干預 什麼叫做司法干預再來 我們在網路上也流傳影片齁然後這個 霸雙節的 在高雄霸來來 把這個影片放一下\n598440\t621392\t政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好 你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下\n625194\t626855\t罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬 你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦\n642145\t661394\t我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就是刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪\n669861\t679886\t五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛不一罪一罰啊那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長講成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來\n690430\t713663\t中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好 你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好 你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦\n716104\t732369\t按鈴 按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎\n736153\t740295\t這個是一個個案執行的一個 又來個案了齁 對啊 又來個案 每個都是個案了 這個合法的嘛 部長 這個是 這個是 投法你以前怎麼不辦啊投法你以前有辦嗎 你還好意思在這邊 你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦 來 再來看再來看 我跟你講 你們哪選擇性辦辦在這邊\n759103\t760765\t韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了\n779994\t781375\t有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談\n798011\t803192\t有沒有搜索 有沒有生壓 有沒有嘛通通是按照委書或文書辦嘛還有個資嘛 涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣 當然不一樣 報名 韓國瑜不用不用搜索 不用約談 不用生壓 不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人 哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴 哪一個被生壓來 你告訴我\n825716\t852456\t這個個案我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了 沒有辦嘛而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的 而且要起訴後來呢 這個檢察長不願意辦而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後 才不起訴這也是個案喔按照部長的說法也是個案喔\n853317\t859760\t不會辦 不能辦 不敢辦好 你以為只有這一個嗎 再來再來怎麼會不同呢 一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同 部長 你在這邊凹吧 說謊吧哪有什麼不同 他是不是用偽造文書來辦 是不是\n876810\t887534\t這是兩個不同的案件當然一個罷免韓國瑜 一個罷免吳思堯啊不一樣啊 真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊 給他辦到死啊好 再來連署 除了罷免之外總統 副總統選舉 如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍 也需要連署好 5271名死人\n905083\t916112\t連署 這個呢 這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個 你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下 5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎\n928760\t953260\t2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就偵辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有不一樣有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有\n958487\t964536\t我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊 有沒有\n965774\t971577\t每個個案是不一樣 為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣 半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結 雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發\n989304\t1007846\t但是呢沒有第一個沒有登門去按門鈴沒有去約談沒有去搜索沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以你的最後的結論是什麼我告訴大家那個就叫做選擇性辦案\n1009690\t1024022\t那個就叫做 雙標辦案 那個就叫做 辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做 依照上意來辦案 不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦 這個證據嘛那部長你為什麼 你說 我當時沒有當部長 當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶 為什麼你一個都沒有約談\n1033911\t1054065\t蛤 你也不敢批評啊 對不對 OK啊 那個個案呢所以 我直接說 你們現在 所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案 為什麼同樣的個案我問你 大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦 是不是\n1056271\t1081805\t他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題\n1083566\t1109178\t現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正\n1110439\t1125856\t局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦\n1127615\t1149702\t這不叫做 這個 我真的想請問 民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機 他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛\n1150984\t1161906\t他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛 對付我王宏威嗎\n1163462\t1181857\t對不對 我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投 在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係\n1183311\t1201119\t你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來 局長你告訴我為什麼 憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走\n1213345\t1219994\t因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了 又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情\n1226929\t1244970\t你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這什麼叫依法偵辦 依什麼法 依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案 辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係\n1246411\t1252313\t什麼叫依法偵辦來 部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法\n1274437\t1292250\t以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以這是個案的又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊\n1304295\t1310766\t在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好 謝謝\n","txt":"臨近巡打 謝謝\n好 先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到\n所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會\n那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責\n王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會報告所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟\n我們的調查局局長好 部長 局長在上週 其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場 吳思堯委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部\n那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來\n因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公\n結果在當天搜索的時候 竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長 他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室 而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機 滑了三四個小時\n我想請問 如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下 跟中山大同黨不何干\n為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊\n然後我也是被罷免的對象所以我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼\n中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩義嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長 局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎 依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告齁\n搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這一共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎\n可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔\n這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要別人我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎\n我直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是\n依法來處理的 還叫依法處理 依法到這種地步 依法來打擊陣敵嗎而且跟委員報告 我對各案的說索票 可是你說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機讓他看手機的內容嗎 可不可以 可不可以 來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛 那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部 沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎 那是一個統一訴訟 它是以訴索嘛\n可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以那這有沒有濫權問題 有沒有\n既然法官都核准搜索票可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以 按照你這樣講可以嗎\n這個是個案我不表示意見 那我想 我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎 好 再來看好 再來看 我跟你講 你們這一陣子無法無天來 在高雄 高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站 要求把現場工作人員帶走\n然後要求 就說 你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走好 請問一下 這個是合法的執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票 去連署站 要求把人帶走 可以嗎\n這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太\n重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有\n還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢 跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎 跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來\n這不叫司法干預 什麼叫做司法干預再來 我們在網路上也流傳影片齁然後這個 霸雙節的 在高雄霸來來 把這個影片放一下\n政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好 你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下\n罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬 你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦\n我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就是刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪\n五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛不一罪一罰啊那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長講成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來\n中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好 你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好 你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦\n按鈴 按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎\n這個是一個個案執行的一個 又來個案了齁 對啊 又來個案 每個都是個案了 這個合法的嘛 部長 這個是 這個是 投法你以前怎麼不辦啊投法你以前有辦嗎 你還好意思在這邊 你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦 來 再來看再來看 我跟你講 你們哪選擇性辦辦在這邊\n韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了\n有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談\n有沒有搜索 有沒有生壓 有沒有嘛通通是按照委書或文書辦嘛還有個資嘛 涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣 當然不一樣 報名 韓國瑜不用不用搜索 不用約談 不用生壓 不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人 哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴 哪一個被生壓來 你告訴我\n這個個案我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了 沒有辦嘛而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的 而且要起訴後來呢 這個檢察長不願意辦而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後 才不起訴這也是個案喔按照部長的說法也是個案喔\n不會辦 不能辦 不敢辦好 你以為只有這一個嗎 再來再來怎麼會不同呢 一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同 部長 你在這邊凹吧 說謊吧哪有什麼不同 他是不是用偽造文書來辦 是不是\n這是兩個不同的案件當然一個罷免韓國瑜 一個罷免吳思堯啊不一樣啊 真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊 給他辦到死啊好 再來連署 除了罷免之外總統 副總統選舉 如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍 也需要連署好 5271名死人\n連署 這個呢 這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個 你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下 5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎\n2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就偵辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有不一樣有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有\n我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊 有沒有\n每個個案是不一樣 為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣 半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結 雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發\n但是呢沒有第一個沒有登門去按門鈴沒有去約談沒有去搜索沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以你的最後的結論是什麼我告訴大家那個就叫做選擇性辦案\n那個就叫做 雙標辦案 那個就叫做 辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做 依照上意來辦案 不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦 這個證據嘛那部長你為什麼 你說 我當時沒有當部長 當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶 為什麼你一個都沒有約談\n蛤 你也不敢批評啊 對不對 OK啊 那個個案呢所以 我直接說 你們現在 所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案 為什麼同樣的個案我問你 大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦 是不是\n他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題\n現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正\n局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦\n這不叫做 這個 我真的想請問 民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機 他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛\n他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛 對付我王宏威嗎\n對不對 我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投 在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係\n你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來 局長你告訴我為什麼 憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走\n因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了 又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情\n你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這什麼叫依法偵辦 依什麼法 依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案 辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係\n什麼叫依法偵辦來 部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法\n以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以這是個案的又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊\n在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.172 --> 00:00.579\n臨近巡打謝謝\n\n00:13.407 --> 00:33.482\n好先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到\n\n00:34.042 --> 00:49.998\n所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會\n\n00:51.219 --> 00:56.401\n那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責\n\n01:20.352 --> 01:34.000\n王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會報告所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟\n\n01:48.689 --> 01:50.809\n我們的調查局局長好部長局長在上週其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場吳思堯委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部\n\n02:16.155 --> 02:28.666\n那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來\n\n02:32.609 --> 02:58.921\n因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公\n\n03:00.422 --> 03:24.058\n結果在當天搜索的時候竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機滑了三四個小時\n\n03:25.509 --> 03:37.735\n我想請問如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下跟中山大同黨不何干\n\n03:39.060 --> 03:55.229\n為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊\n\n04:05.256 --> 04:29.589\n然後我也是被罷免的對象所以我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼\n\n04:34.963 --> 04:55.133\n中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩義嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告齁\n\n05:01.525 --> 05:26.418\n搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這一共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎\n\n05:27.739 --> 05:32.104\n可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔\n\n05:38.634 --> 06:03.987\n這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要別人我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎\n\n06:06.735 --> 06:10.500\n我直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是\n\n06:22.045 --> 06:46.773\n依法來處理的還叫依法處理依法到這種地步依法來打擊陣敵嗎而且跟委員報告我對各案的說索票可是你說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機讓他看手機的內容嗎可不可以可不可以來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎那是一個統一訴訟它是以訴索嘛\n\n06:52.267 --> 07:14.473\n可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以那這有沒有濫權問題有沒有\n\n07:19.634 --> 07:45.809\n既然法官都核准搜索票可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以按照你這樣講可以嗎\n\n07:47.518 --> 08:03.834\n這個是個案我不表示意見那我想我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎好再來看好再來看我跟你講你們這一陣子無法無天來在高雄高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站要求把現場工作人員帶走\n\n08:10.660 --> 08:30.340\n然後要求就說你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票就要把人帶走好請問一下這個是合法的執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票去連署站要求把人帶走可以嗎\n\n08:33.197 --> 08:51.346\n這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太\n\n08:53.487 --> 09:19.504\n重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有\n\n09:22.006 --> 09:29.374\n還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來\n\n09:42.967 --> 09:48.892\n這不叫司法干預什麼叫做司法干預再來我們在網路上也流傳影片齁然後這個霸雙節的在高雄霸來來把這個影片放一下\n\n09:58.440 --> 10:21.392\n政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下\n\n10:25.194 --> 10:26.855\n罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦\n\n10:42.145 --> 11:01.394\n我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就是刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪\n\n11:09.861 --> 11:19.886\n五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛不一罪一罰啊那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長講成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來\n\n11:30.430 --> 11:53.663\n中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦\n\n11:56.104 --> 12:12.369\n按鈴按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎\n\n12:16.153 --> 12:20.295\n這個是一個個案執行的一個又來個案了齁對啊又來個案每個都是個案了這個合法的嘛部長這個是這個是投法你以前怎麼不辦啊投法你以前有辦嗎你還好意思在這邊你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦來再來看再來看我跟你講你們哪選擇性辦辦在這邊\n\n12:39.103 --> 12:40.765\n韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了\n\n12:59.994 --> 13:01.375\n有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談\n\n13:18.011 --> 13:23.192\n有沒有搜索有沒有生壓有沒有嘛通通是按照委書或文書辦嘛還有個資嘛涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣當然不一樣報名韓國瑜不用不用搜索不用約談不用生壓不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴哪一個被生壓來你告訴我\n\n13:45.716 --> 14:12.456\n這個個案我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了沒有辦嘛而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的而且要起訴後來呢這個檢察長不願意辦而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後才不起訴這也是個案喔按照部長的說法也是個案喔\n\n14:13.317 --> 14:19.760\n不會辦不能辦不敢辦好你以為只有這一個嗎再來再來怎麼會不同呢一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同部長你在這邊凹吧說謊吧哪有什麼不同他是不是用偽造文書來辦是不是\n\n14:36.810 --> 14:47.534\n這是兩個不同的案件當然一個罷免韓國瑜一個罷免吳思堯啊不一樣啊真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊給他辦到死啊好再來連署除了罷免之外總統副總統選舉如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍也需要連署好5271名死人\n\n15:05.083 --> 15:16.112\n連署這個呢這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎\n\n15:28.760 --> 15:53.260\n2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就偵辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有不一樣有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有\n\n15:58.487 --> 16:04.536\n我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊有沒有\n\n16:05.774 --> 16:11.577\n每個個案是不一樣為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發\n\n16:29.304 --> 16:47.846\n但是呢沒有第一個沒有登門去按門鈴沒有去約談沒有去搜索沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以你的最後的結論是什麼我告訴大家那個就叫做選擇性辦案\n\n16:49.690 --> 17:04.022\n那個就叫做雙標辦案那個就叫做辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做依照上意來辦案不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦這個證據嘛那部長你為什麼你說我當時沒有當部長當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶為什麼你一個都沒有約談\n\n17:13.911 --> 17:34.065\n蛤你也不敢批評啊對不對OK啊那個個案呢所以我直接說你們現在所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案為什麼同樣的個案我問你大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦是不是\n\n17:36.271 --> 18:01.805\n他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題\n\n18:03.566 --> 18:29.178\n現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正\n\n18:30.439 --> 18:45.856\n局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦\n\n18:47.615 --> 19:09.702\n這不叫做這個我真的想請問民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛\n\n19:10.984 --> 19:21.906\n他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛對付我王宏威嗎\n\n19:23.462 --> 19:41.857\n對不對我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係\n\n19:43.311 --> 20:01.119\n你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來局長你告訴我為什麼憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走\n\n20:13.345 --> 20:19.994\n因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情\n\n20:26.929 --> 20:44.970\n你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這什麼叫依法偵辦依什麼法依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係\n\n20:46.411 --> 20:52.313\n什麼叫依法偵辦來部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法\n\n21:14.437 --> 21:32.250\n以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以這是個案的又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊\n\n21:44.295 --> 21:50.766\n在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.172,"end":0.579,"text":"臨近巡打 謝謝"},{"start":13.407,"end":33.482,"text":"好 先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到"},{"start":34.042,"end":49.998,"text":"所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會"},{"start":51.219,"end":56.401,"text":"那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責"},{"start":80.352,"end":94,"text":"王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會報告所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟"},{"start":108.689,"end":110.809,"text":"我們的調查局局長好 部長 局長在上週 其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場 吳思堯委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部"},{"start":136.155,"end":148.666,"text":"那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來"},{"start":152.609,"end":178.921,"text":"因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公"},{"start":180.422,"end":204.058,"text":"結果在當天搜索的時候 竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長 他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室 而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機 滑了三四個小時"},{"start":205.509,"end":217.735,"text":"我想請問 如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下 跟中山大同黨不何干"},{"start":219.06,"end":235.229,"text":"為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊"},{"start":245.256,"end":269.589,"text":"然後我也是被罷免的對象所以我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼"},{"start":274.963,"end":295.133,"text":"中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩義嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長 局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎 依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告齁"},{"start":301.525,"end":326.418,"text":"搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這一共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎"},{"start":327.739,"end":332.104,"text":"可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔"},{"start":338.634,"end":363.987,"text":"這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要別人我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎"},{"start":366.735,"end":370.5,"text":"我直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是"},{"start":382.045,"end":406.773,"text":"依法來處理的 還叫依法處理 依法到這種地步 依法來打擊陣敵嗎而且跟委員報告 我對各案的說索票 可是你說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機讓他看手機的內容嗎 可不可以 可不可以 來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛 那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部 沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎 那是一個統一訴訟 它是以訴索嘛"},{"start":412.267,"end":434.473,"text":"可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以那這有沒有濫權問題 有沒有"},{"start":439.634,"end":465.809,"text":"既然法官都核准搜索票可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以 按照你這樣講可以嗎"},{"start":467.518,"end":483.834,"text":"這個是個案我不表示意見 那我想 我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎 好 再來看好 再來看 我跟你講 你們這一陣子無法無天來 在高雄 高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站 要求把現場工作人員帶走"},{"start":490.66,"end":510.34,"text":"然後要求 就說 你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走好 請問一下 這個是合法的執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票 去連署站 要求把人帶走 可以嗎"},{"start":513.197,"end":531.346,"text":"這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太"},{"start":533.487,"end":559.504,"text":"重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有"},{"start":562.006,"end":569.374,"text":"還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢 跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎 跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來"},{"start":582.967,"end":588.892,"text":"這不叫司法干預 什麼叫做司法干預再來 我們在網路上也流傳影片齁然後這個 霸雙節的 在高雄霸來來 把這個影片放一下"},{"start":598.44,"end":621.392,"text":"政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好 你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下"},{"start":625.194,"end":626.855,"text":"罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬 你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦"},{"start":642.145,"end":661.394,"text":"我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就是刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪"},{"start":669.861,"end":679.886,"text":"五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛不一罪一罰啊那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長講成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來"},{"start":690.43,"end":713.663,"text":"中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好 你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好 你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦"},{"start":716.104,"end":732.369,"text":"按鈴 按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎"},{"start":736.153,"end":740.295,"text":"這個是一個個案執行的一個 又來個案了齁 對啊 又來個案 每個都是個案了 這個合法的嘛 部長 這個是 這個是 投法你以前怎麼不辦啊投法你以前有辦嗎 你還好意思在這邊 你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦 來 再來看再來看 我跟你講 你們哪選擇性辦辦在這邊"},{"start":759.103,"end":760.765,"text":"韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了"},{"start":779.994,"end":781.375,"text":"有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談"},{"start":798.011,"end":803.192,"text":"有沒有搜索 有沒有生壓 有沒有嘛通通是按照委書或文書辦嘛還有個資嘛 涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣 當然不一樣 報名 韓國瑜不用不用搜索 不用約談 不用生壓 不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人 哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴 哪一個被生壓來 你告訴我"},{"start":825.716,"end":852.456,"text":"這個個案我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了 沒有辦嘛而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的 而且要起訴後來呢 這個檢察長不願意辦而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後 才不起訴這也是個案喔按照部長的說法也是個案喔"},{"start":853.317,"end":859.76,"text":"不會辦 不能辦 不敢辦好 你以為只有這一個嗎 再來再來怎麼會不同呢 一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同 部長 你在這邊凹吧 說謊吧哪有什麼不同 他是不是用偽造文書來辦 是不是"},{"start":876.81,"end":887.534,"text":"這是兩個不同的案件當然一個罷免韓國瑜 一個罷免吳思堯啊不一樣啊 真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊 給他辦到死啊好 再來連署 除了罷免之外總統 副總統選舉 如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍 也需要連署好 5271名死人"},{"start":905.083,"end":916.112,"text":"連署 這個呢 這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個 你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下 5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎"},{"start":928.76,"end":953.26,"text":"2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就偵辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有不一樣有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有"},{"start":958.487,"end":964.536,"text":"我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊 有沒有"},{"start":965.774,"end":971.577,"text":"每個個案是不一樣 為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣 半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結 雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發"},{"start":989.304,"end":1007.846,"text":"但是呢沒有第一個沒有登門去按門鈴沒有去約談沒有去搜索沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以你的最後的結論是什麼我告訴大家那個就叫做選擇性辦案"},{"start":1009.69,"end":1024.022,"text":"那個就叫做 雙標辦案 那個就叫做 辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做 依照上意來辦案 不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦 這個證據嘛那部長你為什麼 你說 我當時沒有當部長 當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶 為什麼你一個都沒有約談"},{"start":1033.911,"end":1054.065,"text":"蛤 你也不敢批評啊 對不對 OK啊 那個個案呢所以 我直接說 你們現在 所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案 為什麼同樣的個案我問你 大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦 是不是"},{"start":1056.271,"end":1081.805,"text":"他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題"},{"start":1083.566,"end":1109.178,"text":"現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正"},{"start":1110.439,"end":1125.856,"text":"局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦"},{"start":1127.615,"end":1149.702,"text":"這不叫做 這個 我真的想請問 民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機 他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛"},{"start":1150.984,"end":1161.906,"text":"他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛 對付我王宏威嗎"},{"start":1163.462,"end":1181.857,"text":"對不對 我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投 在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係"},{"start":1183.311,"end":1201.119,"text":"你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來 局長你告訴我為什麼 憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走"},{"start":1213.345,"end":1219.994,"text":"因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了 又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情"},{"start":1226.929,"end":1244.97,"text":"你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這什麼叫依法偵辦 依什麼法 依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案 辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係"},{"start":1246.411,"end":1252.313,"text":"什麼叫依法偵辦來 部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法"},{"start":1274.437,"end":1292.25,"text":"以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以這是個案的又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊"},{"start":1304.295,"end":1310.766,"text":"在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時44分）先就剛才主席所公布的事項，感謝主席還有議事人員，把之前有關國安會或國安會秘書長，有沒有到立法院來備詢查得非常清楚，應該已經讓司法及法制委員會的委員都充分理解，所以依照今天的狀況，即使沒有派人來，竟然完全沒有請假的動作，這是完全的漠視，事實上，也極為不尊重立法院以及司法及法制委員會，我覺得確實應該予以譴責，也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員，加上過去確實有案例，這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政，過去的民進黨政府可以對立法院、對委員會有一個基本的尊重，但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有！連請假都沒有！我覺得這個部分確實應該予以譴責！"],["主席：我跟王委員報告一下，在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候，他都會請假，所以我們會再跟國安會溝通一下。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯，所以請問一下，顧立雄可以，為什麼吳釗燮不可以？吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎？還是他心虛不敢來，也不做請假？好，謝謝我們主席的說明。","主席，我先請我們的法務部長跟調查局局長。"],["主席：麻煩請部長及調查局局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長、局長，上週震驚全社會的就是有關於因為要偵查罷免案，包含其中一個當事人也有在現場，就是吳思瑤委員，還有吳沛憶委員，因此來搜索國民黨臺北市黨部，這部分剛才部長說是依法來做，但是我想請教部長跟局長，在你們辦案的過程裡面，有沒有司法濫權的問題？有沒有打擊政敵的問題？因為我們臺北市黨部是在臺北市長春路、中山區，正好是在本人的選區，結果在整個搜索過程裡面，在長春路同一棟大樓裡面，除了臺北市黨部，也有我們中山、大同區黨部在那邊辦公，而且它是分開辦公，非常明確的分開辦公，結果當天在搜索的時候，竟然我們中山、大同區黨部的負責人，我們稱他是執行長，他一樣被搜索，不但被搜索整個辦公室，還要求交出手機，然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機滑了三、四個小時。","我想請問，如果今天罷免吳思瑤是在士林、北投區；罷免吳沛憶是中正、萬華區，請問一下跟中山、大同區黨部何干？為什麼可以去搜索中山、大同區黨部的辦公室？為什麼可以要求他交出手機，在那邊滑了三、四個小時，然後再把這個手機交回給我們區黨部的執行長，請問一下有何干係？而且這個干係是什麼呢？本人的選區正好是中山區，我也是被罷免的對象，所以我們整個中山區認為，假所謂的搜索臺北市黨部之名，把根本不相關的中山、大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番；而且更過分的是，最後還把中山、大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走，拿中山、大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼？中山、大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎？可以罷免吳沛憶嗎？請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料？部長、局長，這個是合理的程序嗎？這有在依法行政嗎？有在依法搜索嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，搜索一定是令狀主義，一定要法官核票、核准搜索票上的這些處所跟對象。"],["王委員鴻薇：這一共是有4個行政區，而中山、大同區跟這兩個區域完全沒有關係，為什麼他的手機可以被搜索？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有沒有關係是個案的判斷、認定，這部分因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：可以這樣認定嗎？可以這樣認定嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我不能去干涉……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣是不是所有各縣市你通通都可以搜索了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是法院核票的喔！這是有令狀的喔！不是我們檢調人員要去哪裡搜就去哪裡搜！"],["王委員鴻薇：他到那邊搜，明知那是中山、大同區黨部；明知它的業務跟那個沒有相關，他的手機可以被搜索？我想請問一下部長、局長，比方說我正好在那邊辦公，可是我跟這一些業務完全沒有關係，你可以要求我交出手機嗎？你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎？我直接說，這個黨部主委他只有輔選我的資料。請問一下，這跟罷免吳思瑤、跟罷免吳沛憶有什麼關係？你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是依法來處理的。"],["王委員鴻薇：還叫依法處理？可以依法到這種地步！可以依法來打擊政敵嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是法官發出的搜索票，而且跟委員報告，我對個案並不清楚……"],["王委員鴻薇：我問你，搜索票可以要求現場的人交出手機，讓他看手機的內容嗎？可不可以？告訴我！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是要個案來認定，就是要有法院的搜索票。"],["王委員鴻薇：法院的搜索票沒有包含中山區黨部，沒有包含大同區黨部啊！可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是同一處所，是以處所來判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：但那是不同辦公嘛！你知道現在有很多的共享辦公室嗎？多的咧！你知道民間有多少共享辦公室？可能A、B、C、D、E公司都共享一個辦公室，若你搜索那個辦公室，要辦A公司，你可以要B公司、C公司的人員把他的資料交出來、把他的手機交出來，可不可以？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依搜索票所載，而搜索票怎麼記載……"],["王委員鴻薇：這有沒有濫權問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：既然法官都核准搜索票，有可以搜索的處所及範圍那個沒有濫權啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以部長告訴我，今天你要辦士林、北投區的罷免案；辦中正、萬華區的罷免案，但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山、大同區的黨部，可以要求黨部負責人交出手機，可以直接帶走中山、大同區黨部的名冊，你告訴我可不可以？按照你這樣講，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是個案，我不表示意見，我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索。"],["王委員鴻薇：有在依法嗎？好，我跟你講，你們這一陣子是無法無天！","再來看下一個，在高雄，穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員，到了鳳山工協市場連署站，要求把現場工作人員帶走，然後問他有沒有搜索票？沒有拿搜索票就要把人帶走，沒有拿搜索票就要把人帶走，請問一下，這個是合法的執法程序嗎？沒有拿搜索票可以去連署站並要求把人帶走，可以嗎？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，我想委員提到的是媒體的報導，現場的狀況當天檢察官也有聲明，事實的狀況是去找這個受搜索人，而他已經聯絡他的太太，他說他太太在那個連署站，所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太……"],["王委員鴻薇：他拿了搜索票嗎？重點是他拿了搜索票嗎？"],["陳局長白立：有搜索票，這個受搜索人已經同意到他家去搜索，但是鑰匙在他太太身上，他太太當時在連署站……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以他就可以把受搜索人的太太帶走？"],["陳局長白立：沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：他太太是受搜索人嗎？"],["陳局長白立：受搜索人說，去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門。這是受搜索人同意的，我們的同仁只是到那個連署站……"],["王委員鴻薇：受搜索人可以同意把他太太帶走嗎？可以嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們沒有說要把他太太帶走。"],["王委員鴻薇：我告訴你，還有人跟我反映，他們在現場本來要去連署，結果調查人員跟他說：你下午再來！下午再來！有這樣子嗎？跑到人家的連署站，要求帶人走，然後對要去連署的人說：你下午再來。這不叫司法干預，什麼叫做司法干預？"],["陳局長白立：我們沒有要到連署站帶人走的狀況。"],["王委員鴻薇：再來，網路上也流傳一個影片，就是高雄雙罷劫的影片，來，把這個影片放一下。","（播放影片）"],["王委員鴻薇：其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後，直接被壓在地上，有壓制這樣一個動作。我想請問一下，罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯，要在現場直接銬手銬，抓著他的腰帶，然後抓進去之後，直接被壓制在地上摩擦？現在是怎麼樣？司法可以惡劣到這種地步嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法是公正的，司法絕對不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下他犯了什麼罪？他犯了什麼罪？來，部長說，他犯了什麼罪？被戴了手銬，然後進去直接被壓制在地上。"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是刑法偽造文書罪跟……"],["王委員鴻薇：就是偽造文書罪嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有個資法嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊，偽造文書罪、個資法，偽造文書罪是不是重罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：五年以下。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，五年以下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且一罪一罰。"],["王委員鴻薇：要一罪一罰啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，本來就一罪一罰。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你要用一罪一罰，所以你又在嚇唬人……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有嚇唬人，這是法律規定的，委員，這是法律……"],["王委員鴻薇：你要一罪一罰嘛，我待會給你看，我待會給你看，好，既然部長講成這樣，你這個嘴臉還這樣，來、來、來、來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這個徐尚賢被聲押，所以我說他這有違法逮捕或……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們再來看，一罪一罰，太好了，中選會告發罷免林沛祥有116件的連署是涉嫌偽造案，你們也有辦，因為大家現在都說怎麼辦藍不辦綠呢？好，你要辦綠啊，可是很奇怪喔，你辦綠不是說去辦他們的罷團，也不是去辦領銜人，也不是去辦幹部，直接一大早6點半按門鈴叫人家開門，這是連署人，請問一下以前有這樣的辦法嗎？以前有這樣直接去找連署人，6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免，有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個個案執行的……"],["王委員鴻薇：又來個案了喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊。"],["王委員鴻薇：又來個案，每個都是個案嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是合法的嘛……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，合法你以前怎麼不辦啊？合法你以前有辦嗎？你還好意思在這邊……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我怎麼……"],["王委員鴻薇：你還好意思在這邊講？怎麼不辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來有犯罪嫌疑，本來就是要偵辦嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：再來看，再來看，我跟你講，你們選擇性辦案，在這邊還可以大言不慚……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有選擇性辦案，我們是客觀公正，抱持毋枉毋縱的態度來偵辦，絕對沒有什麼選擇性辦案。"],["王委員鴻薇：韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署、有沒有偽造連署？有沒有？韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署、有沒有偽造連署？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分檢察官就已經釐清了。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有？我問你有沒有啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是有連署人後來發生死亡的情形。"],["王委員鴻薇：有嘛，好，請問你辦了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有分案偵辦，這個案件有辦啊。"],["王委員鴻薇：有辦了，不起訴嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不就辦了然後釐清了嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問你一下，有沒有約談、有沒有搜索、有沒有聲押？有沒有嘛？通通是按照偽造文書還有涉及違反個資法辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個案件的情形都不一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：不一樣，當然不一樣，罷免韓國瑜不用搜索、不用約談、不用聲押，不一樣啊！請問一下一千三百多個人哪一個被搜索、哪一個被按門鈴、哪一個被聲押？來，你告訴我，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這種個案我不清楚……"],["王委員鴻薇：你又不清楚了，沒有辦嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我不會指導，我不會干涉指導，因為這是個案嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有辦，而且我直接告訴你，當時高檢署的檢察長被爆料，其實當時的檢察官是要辦的，而且要起訴，後來檢察長不願意辦，甚至中間還去換檢察官，換了另外一個檢察官之後才不起訴，這也是個案喔！按照部長的說法，也是個案喔，不會辦、不能辦、不敢辦，好，你以為只有這一個嗎？再來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，這件是妨害名譽案件，跟偽造文書，這是兩個不同的案件嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼會不同呢？一樣是有偽造連署啊，有什麼不同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個妨害名譽的案件啊。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你在這邊拗吧、說謊吧，哪有什麼不同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在拗啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：他是不是用偽造文書來辦，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是兩個不同的案件。"],["王委員鴻薇：有什麼不同？一個罷免韓國瑜、一個罷免吳思瑤啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個偵辦的是不一樣的檢察官。"],["王委員鴻薇：不一樣啊，真不一樣，韓國瑜的就不要約談、不能辦啊，罷免吳思瑤就給他辦到死啦。","再來，連署，除了罷免之外，總統、副總統選舉，如果你是無黨籍也需要連署，5,271名死人連署，這個其實是中選會告發的，中選會在之後告發5,271個，你說什麼在韓國瑜之前，那麼請問一下，5,271名偽造連署有辦嗎？2023年的選舉，有辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個檢察官不就偵辦了，有釐清嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：全部簽結，好，我問你，有沒有6點半按鈴去詢問，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：又個案，好。來，我再問你，有沒有約談？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個案件有不同的……有的有約談、有的沒約談。"],["王委員鴻薇：又不一樣，不一樣、不一樣，對，個案都不一樣。再問你有沒有搜索、有沒有帶走名冊，有沒有？欸，我這邊罷吳思瑤帶走我中山區的黨員名冊欸！我請問你有沒有帶走名冊，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：又是不一樣、不一樣，不一樣，好……"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的證據的……"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼呢？因為罷韓國瑜不一樣，罷郭台銘也不一樣啊，因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉，郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊，因為他才會分國民黨的票啊，所以最後全部簽結，雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發，但是第一個，沒有登門去按門鈴、沒有去約談、沒有去搜索、沒有去聲押，這就是部長口中所謂的個案，所以你最後的結論是什麼？我告訴大家，那個就叫做選擇性辦案，那個就叫做雙標辦案，那個就叫做辦藍不辦綠辦案，這就叫做依照上意來辦案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：不叫做個案啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有這回事啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼沒有這回事，這證據嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個證據……"],["王委員鴻薇：郭台銘為什麼……那部長為什麼你說：欸，我當時沒有當部長，當時的部長真是莫名其妙，五千多個人耶，為什麼你一個都沒有約談？啊？你也不敢批評啊！對不對？OK啊！那個個案啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不會去介入指導個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我直接說，你們現在……所以部長，你還好意思在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案，為什麼同樣的個案，我問你大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦？是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：對嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛！那一定要有犯罪嫌疑，才有辦法去查嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據、罷郭台銘沒有證據，對不對？罷免其他人都沒有證據，但是只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據，你是這個意思吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是尊重檢察官的偵辦，因為我不會過問。"],["王委員鴻薇：你尊重？我直接講，我最後一個問題，現在直接都說是由邢泰釗下令來偵辦，是不是？邢泰釗下令要偵辦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：邢總長下令偵辦？"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這我不清楚，因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何去處理，因為他是檢察一體的檢察總長嘛！個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方、檢察機關他們對個案的一個處理，我只是一個……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長、局長都要為歷史留下紀錄，比如說你看罷郭台銘也好、罷韓國瑜也好，這些都會留下紀錄，未來你們也都會留下紀錄，我剛剛講了這麼多的案例，你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦，這不叫做……我真的想請問民進黨是不是要雙標？如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免，然後可以去搜索另外一個選區黨部負責人的手機，去滑人家的手機，他最後是還給他，因為他根本不能扣押他手機嘛！他根本不能扣押他手機嘛！他直接可以去要求人家解碼、看人家手機，那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區、根本不搭嘎選區的黨員名冊帶走呢？帶走幹嘛？對付我王鴻薇嗎？對不對？我請問一下，在整個的罷免案裡面，你如果說今天是罷王鴻薇團體，你帶走中山區黨部的黨員名冊還有道理，在罷免士林北投、在罷免中正萬華，請問一下，跟中山區、大同區到底有什麼關係？你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊？來，局長你告訴我，為什麼、憑什麼？"],["陳局長白立：我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀，在同一個處所裡面，其實我們也很難去區分哪個……"],["王委員鴻薇：那你把人家情書也帶走好啦！你把人家家書也帶走好啦！"],["陳局長白立：看個案的內容。"],["王委員鴻薇：只要你覺得可以帶走，你就帶走啊！那我請問黨員名冊，不是那個選區的黨員名冊，為什麼你們可以帶走？"],["陳局長白立：因為這個牽涉到具體的個案，我想不對個案的內容……"],["王委員鴻薇：又來了，又是個案。"],["陳局長白立：做說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：這種個案沒有問題嗎？你們繼續濫權好了，我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情，你們這樣檢察官可以如此地濫權，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官沒有濫權啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼沒有濫權呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依法偵辦哪有什麼濫權？"],["王委員鴻薇：這怎麼叫依法偵辦？依什麼法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果濫權的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下，我中山區黨部的這些負責人跟這個罷免案、跟罷免吳思瑤及吳沛憶有什麼關係？什麼叫依法偵辦？來，部長，你敢這樣講，我請問一下中山區的黨員、中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤、罷免吳沛憶有什麼關係？你告訴我，大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係，你告訴我？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依照法官核發的搜索票……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫依照法官？你們難道現場不會判斷嗎？我告訴你，現在真的很多共用辦公室，按照你這種說法，以後大家非常恐怖啊，只要是共用辦公室，旁邊跟我共用辦公室的人出事，我統統要被搜索啊！可以這樣嗎？我問你可不可以？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是個案的、個案的……"],["王委員鴻薇：又來個案了，你拗不過就用個案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：我跟你講，這就叫做司法濫權，這就叫做整肅政敵，不折不扣，我請你們適可而止，你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊，在那邊講什麼侈言個案，你們的個案就是你們個案去整肅人家嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是這樣的嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。那我們下一位請沈伯洋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}}