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{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 983.848, \"end\": 985.109, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 985.109, \"end\": 985.269, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 985.269, \"end\": 985.429, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 985.429, \"end\": 985.449, \"score\": 0.863}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,925 --> 00:00:23,173\n謝謝主席好那麻煩我們的卓院長跟有事發問部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備詢林委員好院長部長早\n\n2\n00:00:35,546 --> 00:00:51,774\n那今天要來跟你討論一個我們的通學環境的一個課題這是我從民間就一直在關心然後呢進來立法院一年多也一直在關注的一個議題雖然今天透過這樣的一個總質詢事上是\n\n3\n00:00:52,318 --> 00:01:18,666\n可以針對於現在行政部門在努力的一個計劃案能夠更有知道一些困境之後是不是可以有更有一個方向去調動所以首先先問部長首先先問院長就針對於我們7到15歲的交通傷亡的狀態你覺得是有改善還是沒有改善包括學童包括青少年的事件就7到15歲\n\n4\n00:01:20,905 --> 00:01:46,882\n我們在行人的永續提升行人安全道路上面針對學校也對重要路口都有進行相關的工作那我當然希望降低但是目前降低的幅度應該是不大是像部長都有院長也充分掌握了那現在兒少的主動出行的這樣交通事故事實上目前看起來事實上\n\n5\n00:01:48,164 --> 00:02:11,819\n去年事實上是歷年最高而且尤其是自行車事實上是成長大概在五年前事實上成長了四成所以就想要問的是當然我知道就是說如果是主動出行還涵蓋行人跟其他的交通運據那不過如果從行人來看的話我覺得還是要肯認我們的院長跟部長的努力的確提出了一些\n\n6\n00:02:12,287 --> 00:02:38,036\n相關的對應措施讓行人的傷亡事實上是7到15歲事實上是下降的不過當然也因為學上放學如果總體看上放學的數據事實上是還是高的所以我們就要來看就是說你們最近在一直在提出來的就是通學環境的改善計畫在通學改善計畫當中想問部長是不是了解到有一些問題事實上\n\n7\n00:02:42,119 --> 00:02:52,983\n你能不能充分掌握到有沒有一些困境非常謝謝林委員對於兒少尤其是交通安全的關心而且是長久以來的一個志工的工作我們非常的佩服\n\n8\n00:02:53,850 --> 00:03:15,311\n其實在院長的指導之下我們有一個永續提升人行安全計畫內政部所負責是260億交通部是140億但是我們現在所提的永續人行安全計畫對於學校周邊的部分僅注重於由地方政府所提上來的譬如說學校的周邊可能是一個四方形但是我們可針對這個門口\n\n9\n00:03:16,972 --> 00:03:41,657\n後門或是側門的部分它可能是一個漏巷可能是一個不是有大車子要經過的地方這個部分地方政府沒有提上來的時候我們上交通部或者是內政部再提供這樣子的一個改善計畫就忽略掉這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向我想我們部長也很充分掌握雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年可是都充分掌握\n\n10\n00:03:42,017 --> 00:04:10,200\n不過有三個課題想來跟部長做一個討論大家好像都想改革只是看起來沒有人想要改變而且學區韓規韓可是沒有法規我覺得改善的進度事實上有一點慢為什麼這麼講首先我想問跟部長來看一下這張圖也就是說左邊跟右邊哪一個這是雲林縣古坑鄉的人行道的爭議哪一個是改善前哪一個是改善後\n\n11\n00:04:15,218 --> 00:04:37,548\n看起來沒有看起來沒有看起來右邊有改善但是呢這裡面的指引呢不是很清楚實際上左邊事實上是改善前可是他也不能講改善前是你們補助經費之後他改善成改善前可是後來民眾反對又改回來原來的樣子叫做改善後所以那筆錢簡直就是\n\n12\n00:04:38,615 --> 00:05:07,551\n沒有意義就是它等於事實上是效果有限而且所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通所以我才會講說大家好像都要改革可是好像沒有人要改變民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的有可能事實上是認知錯誤為什麼講認知錯誤甚至有民眾提出來說為什麼限縮我們的車道然後要鋪設人行道那這樣行車很危險我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋甚至\n\n13\n00:05:08,271 --> 00:05:25,208\n有時候民代里長跟議員都出面反對的時候常常做到一半就會像我們剛剛看到雲林縣股根鄉最後又改回來原來樣子那前面花的錢不是都是浪費的嗎甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難比如說\n\n14\n00:05:26,052 --> 00:05:48,921\n被謾罵或者甚至被黑衣人包圍的我們就會收到這樣子的一個訊息可是我們看日本的一個經驗來看的話他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作所以他們會用工作坊意見交流的會議甚至透過問卷調查\n\n15\n00:05:50,242 --> 00:06:03,702\n然後來共同制定相關的計畫然後甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫然後滾動式的去檢討甚至有去入校宣導甚至會有去做稽查\n\n16\n00:06:04,381 --> 00:06:33,981\n台湾不是没有,为什么?因为我们在113年5月1号就通过了行政条例,第六条也赋予了一些责任,说你要针对环境调查,第七条也赋予了说要跟当地的民众好好的去做沟通,甚至有一个范例可以依循的就是台南,台南事实上是公民团体跟政府一起配合,台南人本交通协会一直在宣导说,你做人行道就送车位,\n\n17\n00:06:34,421 --> 00:06:57,465\n你還是有車位不要用車位來阻擋人行道的鋪設所以才能重得市場就是一個很好的範例所以不是沒有一個好的例子在做所以也期待是不是可以針對於這樣子的第一個困境裡邊可以去考量嗎中央應該輔導地方政府來針對協助提案單位\n\n18\n00:06:58,175 --> 00:07:16,589\n還有呢當然我覺得要做一些社會溝通了解民眾的需求到底是什麼他們的反對的聲浪到底又是什麼而且希望能夠透過工程設計跟兼顧人形設施的那個設置跟停車的需求來達到大家有共識之後然後去布設才不會像\n\n19\n00:07:17,162 --> 00:07:40,438\n雲林縣谷坑鄉這樣子的一個反覆最後沒有解決問題那我也想問部長有沒有機會因為大家都沒有看過好的範例可不可以優先補助我們的改善效益高且執行可行性的地點比如說六都找個兩個地點四番地點讓民眾感受到好的地方的時候他們很多家長才會想說我也想要比照這樣辦\n\n20\n00:07:41,278 --> 00:08:01,748\n我不知道部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎謝謝委員我想委員你提供一個非常好的觀點就是說光是工程設施的改善或者是光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全尤其是校園安全上的顧慮所以你倡議希望能夠加入所謂的公民參與\n\n21\n00:08:03,149 --> 00:08:24,784\n或者是加入志工團體那如果說有很好的案例的話目前我們會提供六個直轄市政府先辦理兩處通學區的改善示範計畫那如果有機會的話我們也請委員一起來參與就是說裡面的學校的家長團體或者是外面的有關於交通安全的不一定是只有警察或者交通警察或者是村里長\n\n22\n00:08:25,805 --> 00:08:51,070\n他們都可以加入讓大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園的學童的通學的安全這是我們最大的希望謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾因為你們已經很努力做只是說我覺得線維問題還是要去解決讓民眾的反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會第二個困境就是說我們好像講學區可是學區到底是什麼可是我們看這張圖的話我們現在做法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了\n\n23\n00:08:51,650 --> 00:09:05,470\n甚至我覺得在看這個排名的時候我覺得不太可思議的地方就是說我們的數字線還是50到60那在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況所以我們的通學區通學道路通學路廊\n\n24\n00:09:08,254 --> 00:09:25,548\n我們的內政部有一些定義在可是如果走到地方的話我覺得有點讓我們覺得傻眼什麼通學項竟然還只是沒有給人行道只是一個通學項來封閉時段根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題他們上放學的一個困難所以學校呢\n\n25\n00:09:26,028 --> 00:09:42,994\n可能基層都會是我覺得孤軍奮戰的結果那目前全額補助的區目前大概都是申請的都是學校四個圍牆周邊有人行道那如果跨出這個四個周邊的跨出去的只有\n\n26\n00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:57,291\n站到0.8%只有台中南投跟苗栗三岸而已那99%就會是這個樣子的狀況根本就是跨出學校門口以外我就沒有路可以走了問題\n\n27\n00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:14,075\n這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎也是會嘛所以我們來看南韓南韓事實上花了28年他們在1988年到2016年他們做了幾件事把學區的定義清楚\n\n28\n00:10:15,325 --> 00:10:32,797\n還有呢標誌標訊否學校讓人家很清楚不是像我們只有一個檯面讓人家非常清楚的知道說學區到了還有個數限30那他們花了28年我認為台灣大概沒有辦法有這麼多年因為我們的出生率是一直下降\n\n29\n00:10:33,464 --> 00:10:54,190\n去年都只到13萬我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握可是他們下降96%非常難所以我也希望說我們有能不能可以也像他們一樣所以希望比照比照我們的我不敢講說要到韓國或到日本可不可以在學校為中心點\n\n30\n00:10:55,680 --> 00:11:07,035\n擴散150公尺不用到300韓國是300日本是500所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的所以我們就希望說可不可以有一個清楚的定義學區然後有否學校的標誌標線跟樹線\n\n31\n00:11:10,259 --> 00:11:39,298\n我不知道部長或院長怎麼看尤其是院長這邊謝謝委員對孩子的關心我想這個學區的法治化的話恐怕不只有內政部包括交通部還有教育部還有地方政府因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府都要一起來討論那您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做可是現在會碰到現實的困難就是越舊的學區人口越多就會像您剛所PO出來在新北的地區它可能一出去就是快速道路\n\n32\n00:11:39,958 --> 00:12:00,765\n那這部分呢我們在工程改善上面或者是說在學區的這個定義上面怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討讓我們有機會跟這三個部會一起來處理學區法治化的問題那確保那個通學的安全比較重要我相信因為院長應該也在院務會都有討論我知道也很努力所以我還是希望能夠\n\n33\n00:12:01,525 --> 00:12:19,646\n有一個進一步的示範區出來之後讓大家管委人資之後可以比照了另外困境3就是改善的進度我覺得還是太少太慢為什麼講因為為什麼112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還是沒有完工的狀態\n\n34\n00:12:22,034 --> 00:12:38,357\n為什麼會這麼慢原因是因為我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的一個工作因為他既然是做總機呢他就是把很多問題都丟給提案的學校那提案學校來做那他們寫的東西學校不是一個工程單位他寫的東西都不符合事實上\n\n35\n00:12:38,897 --> 00:12:57,454\n我們公共工程裡面要改善的這種樣態那最後就會是什麼我們的國土署也很辛苦省的案子還要一直來回來回溝通然後溝通到好的時候要做的時候做到一半又是我剛剛提的里長議員反對的時候又改回來又來變更計畫所以就會變成速度上事實上是慢的\n\n36\n00:12:58,175 --> 00:13:20,167\n那可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況所以可不可以要求未來標案未來他們要來申請案子的時候要求地方政府要拿出這些數據拿出他這些東西來作為一個依據然後另外一個是不是可以要求拜託一下就是說可不可以讓我們的\n\n37\n00:13:22,355 --> 00:13:48,613\n中央是不是可以提供學校一些交通改善的一個方向在而且也期待能夠公民團體一起參與公民團體可以做的一件好事情就是說他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力我覺得應該要善用公民團體的一個他們的能量那2021年我們的CRC國際審查委員\n\n38\n00:13:49,209 --> 00:14:14,004\n他很了解台灣的問題他說政府已經採取許多措施肯認我們解決了交通事故的死傷問題包括交通安全教育跟建立校園的停車區可是他也認為委員會也覺得說建議中央政府要採取行動來確保地方層級在執行相關法規的時候來確保我們兒少對交通事故跟運輸政策制定的私自參與\n\n39\n00:14:15,705 --> 00:14:32,372\n明年我們要交第三次國家報告了這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候我們怎麼去回應他的確提出來說台灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了所以有效的措施才能夠解決問題\n\n40\n00:14:33,712 --> 00:14:54,044\n所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作那當然我想說部長也會覺得學校要地方政府那我覺得可能中央也要來促使我們的地方政府能夠積極的協助不是地方政府都沒有責任就把它丟到一個學校那這樣子學校通常他做不了事情\n\n41\n00:14:55,123 --> 00:15:13,931\n縣市政府才是實際的執行單位要確認這個角色還有要強化跨單位的合作那跨單位可能他的公務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校而不是把它丟給一個學校這樣子的話學校大半沒辦法做事而且教育單位要來彙整路徑\n\n42\n00:15:14,671 --> 00:15:38,681\n學校周遭的那個路徑因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料可是江部有一個很好的道安資訊平台是可以得到的那我也希望部長這邊是不是可以調整補助計畫的程序引進交通工程的專業來支持還有呢外部的支持那個資源譬如說公民團體交通的專業當然有引進我三項公民委員報告第一個\n\n43\n00:15:40,265 --> 00:16:08,219\n我們學校做商一定需要地方政府合作很多的領取等等第二個我們原來規定原來的企劃是四百個學校一年完成兩百個目前的商場也增加我會把四百個完全結束第二個新的學校做商的這個環境政策我要求再增加一段一定要延伸到一個足以安排學生的學生學動盪還可以把這種風促的環境謝謝因為去年的商場新的商場我剛好已經下降了那後面\n\n44\n00:16:14,162 --> 00:16:25,449\n好謝謝林月琴委員質詢謝謝卓院長內政部長的備詢謝謝接下來登記第八位王逸川委員質詢書面提出\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15925\t23173\t謝謝主席好 那麻煩我們的卓院長跟有事發問部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備詢林委員好院長部長早\n35546\t51774\t那今天要來跟你討論一個我們的通學環境的一個課題這是我從民間就一直在關心然後呢進來立法院一年多也一直在關注的一個議題雖然今天透過這樣的一個總質詢事上是\n52318\t78666\t可以針對於現在行政部門在努力的一個計劃案能夠更有知道一些困境之後是不是可以有更有一個方向去調動所以首先先問部長首先先問院長就針對於我們7到15歲的交通傷亡的狀態你覺得是有改善還是沒有改善包括學童包括青少年的事件就7到15歲\n80905\t106882\t我們在行人的永續提升行人安全道路上面針對學校也對重要路口都有進行相關的工作那我當然希望降低但是目前降低的幅度應該是不大是像部長都有院長也充分掌握了那現在兒少的主動出行的這樣交通事故事實上目前看起來事實上\n108164\t131819\t去年事實上是歷年最高而且尤其是自行車事實上是成長大概在五年前事實上成長了四成所以就想要問的是 當然我知道就是說如果是主動出行還涵蓋行人跟其他的交通運據那不過如果從行人來看的話我覺得還是要肯認我們的院長跟部長的努力的確提出了一些\n132287\t158036\t相關的對應措施讓行人的傷亡事實上是7到15歲事實上是下降的不過當然也因為學上放學如果總體看上放學的數據事實上是還是高的所以我們就要來看就是說你們最近在一直在提出來的就是通學環境的改善計畫在通學改善計畫當中想問部長是不是了解到有一些問題事實上\n162119\t172983\t你能不能充分掌握到有沒有一些困境非常謝謝林委員對於兒少尤其是交通安全的關心而且是長久以來的一個志工的工作我們非常的佩服\n173850\t195311\t其實在院長的指導之下我們有一個永續提升人行安全計畫內政部所負責是260億交通部是140億但是我們現在所提的永續人行安全計畫對於學校周邊的部分僅注重於由地方政府所提上來的譬如說學校的周邊可能是一個四方形但是我們可針對這個門口\n196972\t221657\t後門或是側門的部分它可能是一個漏巷可能是一個不是有大車子要經過的地方這個部分地方政府沒有提上來的時候我們上交通部或者是內政部再提供這樣子的一個改善計畫就忽略掉這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向我想我們部長也很充分掌握雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年可是都充分掌握\n222017\t250200\t不過有三個課題想來跟部長做一個討論大家好像都想改革只是看起來沒有人想要改變而且學區韓規韓可是沒有法規我覺得改善的進度事實上有一點慢為什麼這麼講首先我想問跟部長來看一下這張圖也就是說左邊跟右邊哪一個這是雲林縣古坑鄉的人行道的爭議哪一個是改善前哪一個是改善後\n255218\t277548\t看起來沒有看起來沒有看起來右邊有改善但是呢這裡面的指引呢不是很清楚實際上左邊事實上是改善前可是他也不能講改善前是你們補助經費之後他改善成改善前可是後來民眾反對又改回來原來的樣子叫做改善後所以那筆錢簡直就是\n278615\t307551\t沒有意義就是它等於事實上是效果有限而且所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通所以我才會講說大家好像都要改革可是好像沒有人要改變民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的有可能事實上是認知錯誤為什麼講認知錯誤甚至有民眾提出來說為什麼限縮我們的車道然後要鋪設人行道那這樣行車很危險我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋甚至\n308271\t325208\t有時候民代里長跟議員都出面反對的時候常常做到一半就會像我們剛剛看到雲林縣股根鄉最後又改回來原來樣子那前面花的錢不是都是浪費的嗎甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難比如說\n326052\t348921\t被謾罵或者甚至被黑衣人包圍的我們就會收到這樣子的一個訊息可是我們看日本的一個經驗來看的話他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作所以他們會用工作坊意見交流的會議甚至透過問卷調查\n350242\t363702\t然後來共同制定相關的計畫然後甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫然後滾動式的去檢討甚至有去入校宣導甚至會有去做稽查\n364381\t393981\t台湾不是没有,为什么?因为我们在113年5月1号就通过了行政条例,第六条也赋予了一些责任,说你要针对环境调查,第七条也赋予了说要跟当地的民众好好的去做沟通,甚至有一个范例可以依循的就是台南,台南事实上是公民团体跟政府一起配合,台南人本交通协会一直在宣导说,你做人行道就送车位,\n394421\t417465\t你還是有車位不要用車位來阻擋人行道的鋪設所以才能重得市場就是一個很好的範例所以不是沒有一個好的例子在做所以也期待是不是可以針對於這樣子的第一個困境裡邊可以去考量嗎中央應該輔導地方政府來針對協助提案單位\n418175\t436589\t還有呢當然我覺得要做一些社會溝通了解民眾的需求到底是什麼他們的反對的聲浪到底又是什麼而且希望能夠透過工程設計跟兼顧人形設施的那個設置跟停車的需求來達到大家有共識之後然後去布設才不會像\n437162\t460438\t雲林縣谷坑鄉這樣子的一個反覆最後沒有解決問題那我也想問部長有沒有機會因為大家都沒有看過好的範例可不可以優先補助我們的改善效益高且執行可行性的地點比如說六都找個兩個地點四番地點讓民眾感受到好的地方的時候他們很多家長才會想說我也想要比照這樣辦\n461278\t481748\t我不知道部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎謝謝委員我想委員你提供一個非常好的觀點就是說光是工程設施的改善或者是光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全尤其是校園安全上的顧慮所以你倡議希望能夠加入所謂的公民參與\n483149\t504784\t或者是加入志工團體那如果說有很好的案例的話目前我們會提供六個直轄市政府先辦理兩處通學區的改善示範計畫那如果有機會的話我們也請委員一起來參與就是說裡面的學校的家長團體或者是外面的有關於交通安全的不一定是只有警察或者交通警察或者是村里長\n505805\t531070\t他們都可以加入讓大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園的學童的通學的安全這是我們最大的希望謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾因為你們已經很努力做只是說我覺得線維問題還是要去解決讓民眾的反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會第二個困境就是說我們好像講學區可是學區到底是什麼可是我們看這張圖的話我們現在做法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了\n531650\t545470\t甚至我覺得在看這個排名的時候我覺得不太可思議的地方就是說我們的數字線還是50到60那在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況所以我們的通學區 通學道路 通學路廊\n548254\t565548\t我們的內政部有一些定義在可是如果走到地方的話我覺得有點讓我們覺得傻眼什麼通學項竟然還只是沒有給人行道只是一個通學項來封閉時段根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題他們上放學的一個困難所以學校呢\n566028\t582994\t可能基層都會是我覺得孤軍奮戰的結果那目前全額補助的區目前大概都是申請的都是學校四個圍牆周邊有人行道那如果跨出這個四個周邊的跨出去的只有\n583516\t597291\t站到0.8%只有台中南投跟苗栗三岸而已那99%就會是這個樣子的狀況根本就是跨出學校門口以外我就沒有路可以走了問題\n599720\t614075\t這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎也是會嘛所以我們來看南韓南韓事實上花了28年他們在1988年到2016年他們做了幾件事把學區的定義清楚\n615325\t632797\t還有呢標誌標訊否學校讓人家很清楚不是像我們只有一個檯面讓人家非常清楚的知道說學區到了還有個數限30那他們花了28年我認為台灣大概沒有辦法有這麼多年因為我們的出生率是一直下降\n633464\t654190\t去年都只到13萬我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握可是他們下降96%非常難所以我也希望說我們有能不能可以也像他們一樣所以希望比照比照我們的我不敢講說要到韓國或到日本可不可以在學校為中心點\n655680\t667035\t擴散150公尺不用到300韓國是300日本是500所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的所以我們就希望說可不可以有一個清楚的定義學區然後有否學校的標誌標線跟樹線\n670259\t699298\t我不知道部長或院長怎麼看尤其是院長這邊謝謝委員對孩子的關心我想這個學區的法治化的話恐怕不只有內政部包括交通部還有教育部還有地方政府因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府都要一起來討論那您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做可是現在會碰到現實的困難就是越舊的學區人口越多就會像您剛所PO出來在新北的地區它可能一出去就是快速道路\n699958\t720765\t那這部分呢我們在工程改善上面或者是說在學區的這個定義上面怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討讓我們有機會跟這三個部會一起來處理學區法治化的問題那確保那個通學的安全比較重要我相信因為院長應該也在院務會都有討論我知道也很努力所以我還是希望能夠\n721525\t739646\t有一個進一步的示範區出來之後讓大家管委人資之後可以比照了另外困境3就是改善的進度我覺得還是太少太慢為什麼講因為為什麼112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還是沒有完工的狀態\n742034\t758357\t為什麼會這麼慢原因是因為我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的一個工作因為他既然是做總機呢他就是把很多問題都丟給提案的學校那提案學校來做那他們寫的東西學校不是一個工程單位他寫的東西都不符合事實上\n758897\t777454\t我們公共工程裡面要改善的這種樣態那最後就會是什麼我們的國土署也很辛苦省的案子還要一直來回來回溝通然後溝通到好的時候要做的時候做到一半又是我剛剛提的里長議員反對的時候又改回來又來變更計畫所以就會變成速度上事實上是慢的\n778175\t800167\t那可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況所以可不可以要求未來標案未來他們要來申請案子的時候要求地方政府要拿出這些數據拿出他這些東西來作為一個依據然後另外一個是不是可以要求拜託一下就是說可不可以讓我們的\n802355\t828613\t中央是不是可以提供學校一些交通改善的一個方向在而且也期待能夠公民團體一起參與公民團體可以做的一件好事情就是說他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力我覺得應該要善用公民團體的一個他們的能量那2021年我們的CRC國際審查委員\n829209\t854004\t他很了解台灣的問題他說政府已經採取許多措施肯認我們解決了交通事故的死傷問題包括交通安全教育跟建立校園的停車區可是他也認為 委員會也覺得說建議中央政府要採取行動來確保地方層級在執行相關法規的時候來確保我們兒少對交通事故跟運輸政策制定的私自參與\n855705\t872372\t明年我們要交第三次國家報告了這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候我們怎麼去回應他的確提出來說台灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了所以有效的措施才能夠解決問題\n873712\t894044\t所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作那當然我想說部長也會覺得學校要地方政府那我覺得可能中央也要來促使我們的地方政府能夠積極的協助不是地方政府都沒有責任就把它丟到一個學校那這樣子學校通常他做不了事情\n895123\t913931\t縣市政府才是實際的執行單位要確認這個角色還有要強化跨單位的合作那跨單位可能他的公務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校而不是把它丟給一個學校這樣子的話學校大半沒辦法做事而且教育單位要來彙整路徑\n914671\t938681\t學校周遭的那個路徑因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料可是江部有一個很好的道安資訊平台是可以得到的那我也希望部長這邊是不是可以調整補助計畫的程序引進交通工程的專業來支持還有呢外部的支持那個資源譬如說公民團體交通的專業當然有引進我三項公民委員報告第一個\n940265\t968219\t我們學校做商一定需要地方政府合作很多的領取等等第二個我們原來規定原來的企劃是四百個學校一年完成兩百個目前的商場也增加我會把四百個完全結束第二個新的學校做商的這個環境政策我要求再增加一段一定要延伸到一個足以安排學生的學生學動盪還可以把這種風促的環境謝謝因為去年的商場新的商場我剛好已經下降了那後面\n974162\t985449\t好 謝謝林月琴委員質詢謝謝卓院長內政部長的備詢 謝謝接下來登記第八位王逸川委員質詢書面提出\n","txt":"謝謝主席好 那麻煩我們的卓院長跟有事發問部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備詢林委員好院長部長早\n那今天要來跟你討論一個我們的通學環境的一個課題這是我從民間就一直在關心然後呢進來立法院一年多也一直在關注的一個議題雖然今天透過這樣的一個總質詢事上是\n可以針對於現在行政部門在努力的一個計劃案能夠更有知道一些困境之後是不是可以有更有一個方向去調動所以首先先問部長首先先問院長就針對於我們7到15歲的交通傷亡的狀態你覺得是有改善還是沒有改善包括學童包括青少年的事件就7到15歲\n我們在行人的永續提升行人安全道路上面針對學校也對重要路口都有進行相關的工作那我當然希望降低但是目前降低的幅度應該是不大是像部長都有院長也充分掌握了那現在兒少的主動出行的這樣交通事故事實上目前看起來事實上\n去年事實上是歷年最高而且尤其是自行車事實上是成長大概在五年前事實上成長了四成所以就想要問的是 當然我知道就是說如果是主動出行還涵蓋行人跟其他的交通運據那不過如果從行人來看的話我覺得還是要肯認我們的院長跟部長的努力的確提出了一些\n相關的對應措施讓行人的傷亡事實上是7到15歲事實上是下降的不過當然也因為學上放學如果總體看上放學的數據事實上是還是高的所以我們就要來看就是說你們最近在一直在提出來的就是通學環境的改善計畫在通學改善計畫當中想問部長是不是了解到有一些問題事實上\n你能不能充分掌握到有沒有一些困境非常謝謝林委員對於兒少尤其是交通安全的關心而且是長久以來的一個志工的工作我們非常的佩服\n其實在院長的指導之下我們有一個永續提升人行安全計畫內政部所負責是260億交通部是140億但是我們現在所提的永續人行安全計畫對於學校周邊的部分僅注重於由地方政府所提上來的譬如說學校的周邊可能是一個四方形但是我們可針對這個門口\n後門或是側門的部分它可能是一個漏巷可能是一個不是有大車子要經過的地方這個部分地方政府沒有提上來的時候我們上交通部或者是內政部再提供這樣子的一個改善計畫就忽略掉這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向我想我們部長也很充分掌握雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年可是都充分掌握\n不過有三個課題想來跟部長做一個討論大家好像都想改革只是看起來沒有人想要改變而且學區韓規韓可是沒有法規我覺得改善的進度事實上有一點慢為什麼這麼講首先我想問跟部長來看一下這張圖也就是說左邊跟右邊哪一個這是雲林縣古坑鄉的人行道的爭議哪一個是改善前哪一個是改善後\n看起來沒有看起來沒有看起來右邊有改善但是呢這裡面的指引呢不是很清楚實際上左邊事實上是改善前可是他也不能講改善前是你們補助經費之後他改善成改善前可是後來民眾反對又改回來原來的樣子叫做改善後所以那筆錢簡直就是\n沒有意義就是它等於事實上是效果有限而且所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通所以我才會講說大家好像都要改革可是好像沒有人要改變民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的有可能事實上是認知錯誤為什麼講認知錯誤甚至有民眾提出來說為什麼限縮我們的車道然後要鋪設人行道那這樣行車很危險我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋甚至\n有時候民代里長跟議員都出面反對的時候常常做到一半就會像我們剛剛看到雲林縣股根鄉最後又改回來原來樣子那前面花的錢不是都是浪費的嗎甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難比如說\n被謾罵或者甚至被黑衣人包圍的我們就會收到這樣子的一個訊息可是我們看日本的一個經驗來看的話他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作所以他們會用工作坊意見交流的會議甚至透過問卷調查\n然後來共同制定相關的計畫然後甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫然後滾動式的去檢討甚至有去入校宣導甚至會有去做稽查\n台湾不是没有,为什么?因为我们在113年5月1号就通过了行政条例,第六条也赋予了一些责任,说你要针对环境调查,第七条也赋予了说要跟当地的民众好好的去做沟通,甚至有一个范例可以依循的就是台南,台南事实上是公民团体跟政府一起配合,台南人本交通协会一直在宣导说,你做人行道就送车位,\n你還是有車位不要用車位來阻擋人行道的鋪設所以才能重得市場就是一個很好的範例所以不是沒有一個好的例子在做所以也期待是不是可以針對於這樣子的第一個困境裡邊可以去考量嗎中央應該輔導地方政府來針對協助提案單位\n還有呢當然我覺得要做一些社會溝通了解民眾的需求到底是什麼他們的反對的聲浪到底又是什麼而且希望能夠透過工程設計跟兼顧人形設施的那個設置跟停車的需求來達到大家有共識之後然後去布設才不會像\n雲林縣谷坑鄉這樣子的一個反覆最後沒有解決問題那我也想問部長有沒有機會因為大家都沒有看過好的範例可不可以優先補助我們的改善效益高且執行可行性的地點比如說六都找個兩個地點四番地點讓民眾感受到好的地方的時候他們很多家長才會想說我也想要比照這樣辦\n我不知道部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎謝謝委員我想委員你提供一個非常好的觀點就是說光是工程設施的改善或者是光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全尤其是校園安全上的顧慮所以你倡議希望能夠加入所謂的公民參與\n或者是加入志工團體那如果說有很好的案例的話目前我們會提供六個直轄市政府先辦理兩處通學區的改善示範計畫那如果有機會的話我們也請委員一起來參與就是說裡面的學校的家長團體或者是外面的有關於交通安全的不一定是只有警察或者交通警察或者是村里長\n他們都可以加入讓大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園的學童的通學的安全這是我們最大的希望謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾因為你們已經很努力做只是說我覺得線維問題還是要去解決讓民眾的反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會第二個困境就是說我們好像講學區可是學區到底是什麼可是我們看這張圖的話我們現在做法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了\n甚至我覺得在看這個排名的時候我覺得不太可思議的地方就是說我們的數字線還是50到60那在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況所以我們的通學區 通學道路 通學路廊\n我們的內政部有一些定義在可是如果走到地方的話我覺得有點讓我們覺得傻眼什麼通學項竟然還只是沒有給人行道只是一個通學項來封閉時段根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題他們上放學的一個困難所以學校呢\n可能基層都會是我覺得孤軍奮戰的結果那目前全額補助的區目前大概都是申請的都是學校四個圍牆周邊有人行道那如果跨出這個四個周邊的跨出去的只有\n站到0.8%只有台中南投跟苗栗三岸而已那99%就會是這個樣子的狀況根本就是跨出學校門口以外我就沒有路可以走了問題\n這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎也是會嘛所以我們來看南韓南韓事實上花了28年他們在1988年到2016年他們做了幾件事把學區的定義清楚\n還有呢標誌標訊否學校讓人家很清楚不是像我們只有一個檯面讓人家非常清楚的知道說學區到了還有個數限30那他們花了28年我認為台灣大概沒有辦法有這麼多年因為我們的出生率是一直下降\n去年都只到13萬我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握可是他們下降96%非常難所以我也希望說我們有能不能可以也像他們一樣所以希望比照比照我們的我不敢講說要到韓國或到日本可不可以在學校為中心點\n擴散150公尺不用到300韓國是300日本是500所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的所以我們就希望說可不可以有一個清楚的定義學區然後有否學校的標誌標線跟樹線\n我不知道部長或院長怎麼看尤其是院長這邊謝謝委員對孩子的關心我想這個學區的法治化的話恐怕不只有內政部包括交通部還有教育部還有地方政府因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府都要一起來討論那您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做可是現在會碰到現實的困難就是越舊的學區人口越多就會像您剛所PO出來在新北的地區它可能一出去就是快速道路\n那這部分呢我們在工程改善上面或者是說在學區的這個定義上面怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討讓我們有機會跟這三個部會一起來處理學區法治化的問題那確保那個通學的安全比較重要我相信因為院長應該也在院務會都有討論我知道也很努力所以我還是希望能夠\n有一個進一步的示範區出來之後讓大家管委人資之後可以比照了另外困境3就是改善的進度我覺得還是太少太慢為什麼講因為為什麼112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還是沒有完工的狀態\n為什麼會這麼慢原因是因為我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的一個工作因為他既然是做總機呢他就是把很多問題都丟給提案的學校那提案學校來做那他們寫的東西學校不是一個工程單位他寫的東西都不符合事實上\n我們公共工程裡面要改善的這種樣態那最後就會是什麼我們的國土署也很辛苦省的案子還要一直來回來回溝通然後溝通到好的時候要做的時候做到一半又是我剛剛提的里長議員反對的時候又改回來又來變更計畫所以就會變成速度上事實上是慢的\n那可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況所以可不可以要求未來標案未來他們要來申請案子的時候要求地方政府要拿出這些數據拿出他這些東西來作為一個依據然後另外一個是不是可以要求拜託一下就是說可不可以讓我們的\n中央是不是可以提供學校一些交通改善的一個方向在而且也期待能夠公民團體一起參與公民團體可以做的一件好事情就是說他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力我覺得應該要善用公民團體的一個他們的能量那2021年我們的CRC國際審查委員\n他很了解台灣的問題他說政府已經採取許多措施肯認我們解決了交通事故的死傷問題包括交通安全教育跟建立校園的停車區可是他也認為 委員會也覺得說建議中央政府要採取行動來確保地方層級在執行相關法規的時候來確保我們兒少對交通事故跟運輸政策制定的私自參與\n明年我們要交第三次國家報告了這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候我們怎麼去回應他的確提出來說台灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了所以有效的措施才能夠解決問題\n所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作那當然我想說部長也會覺得學校要地方政府那我覺得可能中央也要來促使我們的地方政府能夠積極的協助不是地方政府都沒有責任就把它丟到一個學校那這樣子學校通常他做不了事情\n縣市政府才是實際的執行單位要確認這個角色還有要強化跨單位的合作那跨單位可能他的公務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校而不是把它丟給一個學校這樣子的話學校大半沒辦法做事而且教育單位要來彙整路徑\n學校周遭的那個路徑因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料可是江部有一個很好的道安資訊平台是可以得到的那我也希望部長這邊是不是可以調整補助計畫的程序引進交通工程的專業來支持還有呢外部的支持那個資源譬如說公民團體交通的專業當然有引進我三項公民委員報告第一個\n我們學校做商一定需要地方政府合作很多的領取等等第二個我們原來規定原來的企劃是四百個學校一年完成兩百個目前的商場也增加我會把四百個完全結束第二個新的學校做商的這個環境政策我要求再增加一段一定要延伸到一個足以安排學生的學生學動盪還可以把這種風促的環境謝謝因為去年的商場新的商場我剛好已經下降了那後面\n好 謝謝林月琴委員質詢謝謝卓院長內政部長的備詢 謝謝接下來登記第八位王逸川委員質詢書面提出\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.925 --> 00:23.173\n謝謝主席好那麻煩我們的卓院長跟有事發問部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備詢林委員好院長部長早\n\n00:35.546 --> 00:51.774\n那今天要來跟你討論一個我們的通學環境的一個課題這是我從民間就一直在關心然後呢進來立法院一年多也一直在關注的一個議題雖然今天透過這樣的一個總質詢事上是\n\n00:52.318 --> 01:18.666\n可以針對於現在行政部門在努力的一個計劃案能夠更有知道一些困境之後是不是可以有更有一個方向去調動所以首先先問部長首先先問院長就針對於我們7到15歲的交通傷亡的狀態你覺得是有改善還是沒有改善包括學童包括青少年的事件就7到15歲\n\n01:20.905 --> 01:46.882\n我們在行人的永續提升行人安全道路上面針對學校也對重要路口都有進行相關的工作那我當然希望降低但是目前降低的幅度應該是不大是像部長都有院長也充分掌握了那現在兒少的主動出行的這樣交通事故事實上目前看起來事實上\n\n01:48.164 --> 02:11.819\n去年事實上是歷年最高而且尤其是自行車事實上是成長大概在五年前事實上成長了四成所以就想要問的是當然我知道就是說如果是主動出行還涵蓋行人跟其他的交通運據那不過如果從行人來看的話我覺得還是要肯認我們的院長跟部長的努力的確提出了一些\n\n02:12.287 --> 02:38.036\n相關的對應措施讓行人的傷亡事實上是7到15歲事實上是下降的不過當然也因為學上放學如果總體看上放學的數據事實上是還是高的所以我們就要來看就是說你們最近在一直在提出來的就是通學環境的改善計畫在通學改善計畫當中想問部長是不是了解到有一些問題事實上\n\n02:42.119 --> 02:52.983\n你能不能充分掌握到有沒有一些困境非常謝謝林委員對於兒少尤其是交通安全的關心而且是長久以來的一個志工的工作我們非常的佩服\n\n02:53.850 --> 03:15.311\n其實在院長的指導之下我們有一個永續提升人行安全計畫內政部所負責是260億交通部是140億但是我們現在所提的永續人行安全計畫對於學校周邊的部分僅注重於由地方政府所提上來的譬如說學校的周邊可能是一個四方形但是我們可針對這個門口\n\n03:16.972 --> 03:41.657\n後門或是側門的部分它可能是一個漏巷可能是一個不是有大車子要經過的地方這個部分地方政府沒有提上來的時候我們上交通部或者是內政部再提供這樣子的一個改善計畫就忽略掉這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向我想我們部長也很充分掌握雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年可是都充分掌握\n\n03:42.017 --> 04:10.200\n不過有三個課題想來跟部長做一個討論大家好像都想改革只是看起來沒有人想要改變而且學區韓規韓可是沒有法規我覺得改善的進度事實上有一點慢為什麼這麼講首先我想問跟部長來看一下這張圖也就是說左邊跟右邊哪一個這是雲林縣古坑鄉的人行道的爭議哪一個是改善前哪一個是改善後\n\n04:15.218 --> 04:37.548\n看起來沒有看起來沒有看起來右邊有改善但是呢這裡面的指引呢不是很清楚實際上左邊事實上是改善前可是他也不能講改善前是你們補助經費之後他改善成改善前可是後來民眾反對又改回來原來的樣子叫做改善後所以那筆錢簡直就是\n\n04:38.615 --> 05:07.551\n沒有意義就是它等於事實上是效果有限而且所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通所以我才會講說大家好像都要改革可是好像沒有人要改變民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的有可能事實上是認知錯誤為什麼講認知錯誤甚至有民眾提出來說為什麼限縮我們的車道然後要鋪設人行道那這樣行車很危險我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋甚至\n\n05:08.271 --> 05:25.208\n有時候民代里長跟議員都出面反對的時候常常做到一半就會像我們剛剛看到雲林縣股根鄉最後又改回來原來樣子那前面花的錢不是都是浪費的嗎甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難比如說\n\n05:26.052 --> 05:48.921\n被謾罵或者甚至被黑衣人包圍的我們就會收到這樣子的一個訊息可是我們看日本的一個經驗來看的話他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作所以他們會用工作坊意見交流的會議甚至透過問卷調查\n\n05:50.242 --> 06:03.702\n然後來共同制定相關的計畫然後甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫然後滾動式的去檢討甚至有去入校宣導甚至會有去做稽查\n\n06:04.381 --> 06:33.981\n台湾不是没有,为什么?因为我们在113年5月1号就通过了行政条例,第六条也赋予了一些责任,说你要针对环境调查,第七条也赋予了说要跟当地的民众好好的去做沟通,甚至有一个范例可以依循的就是台南,台南事实上是公民团体跟政府一起配合,台南人本交通协会一直在宣导说,你做人行道就送车位,\n\n06:34.421 --> 06:57.465\n你還是有車位不要用車位來阻擋人行道的鋪設所以才能重得市場就是一個很好的範例所以不是沒有一個好的例子在做所以也期待是不是可以針對於這樣子的第一個困境裡邊可以去考量嗎中央應該輔導地方政府來針對協助提案單位\n\n06:58.175 --> 07:16.589\n還有呢當然我覺得要做一些社會溝通了解民眾的需求到底是什麼他們的反對的聲浪到底又是什麼而且希望能夠透過工程設計跟兼顧人形設施的那個設置跟停車的需求來達到大家有共識之後然後去布設才不會像\n\n07:17.162 --> 07:40.438\n雲林縣谷坑鄉這樣子的一個反覆最後沒有解決問題那我也想問部長有沒有機會因為大家都沒有看過好的範例可不可以優先補助我們的改善效益高且執行可行性的地點比如說六都找個兩個地點四番地點讓民眾感受到好的地方的時候他們很多家長才會想說我也想要比照這樣辦\n\n07:41.278 --> 08:01.748\n我不知道部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎謝謝委員我想委員你提供一個非常好的觀點就是說光是工程設施的改善或者是光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全尤其是校園安全上的顧慮所以你倡議希望能夠加入所謂的公民參與\n\n08:03.149 --> 08:24.784\n或者是加入志工團體那如果說有很好的案例的話目前我們會提供六個直轄市政府先辦理兩處通學區的改善示範計畫那如果有機會的話我們也請委員一起來參與就是說裡面的學校的家長團體或者是外面的有關於交通安全的不一定是只有警察或者交通警察或者是村里長\n\n08:25.805 --> 08:51.070\n他們都可以加入讓大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園的學童的通學的安全這是我們最大的希望謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾因為你們已經很努力做只是說我覺得線維問題還是要去解決讓民眾的反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會第二個困境就是說我們好像講學區可是學區到底是什麼可是我們看這張圖的話我們現在做法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了\n\n08:51.650 --> 09:05.470\n甚至我覺得在看這個排名的時候我覺得不太可思議的地方就是說我們的數字線還是50到60那在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況所以我們的通學區通學道路通學路廊\n\n09:08.254 --> 09:25.548\n我們的內政部有一些定義在可是如果走到地方的話我覺得有點讓我們覺得傻眼什麼通學項竟然還只是沒有給人行道只是一個通學項來封閉時段根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題他們上放學的一個困難所以學校呢\n\n09:26.028 --> 09:42.994\n可能基層都會是我覺得孤軍奮戰的結果那目前全額補助的區目前大概都是申請的都是學校四個圍牆周邊有人行道那如果跨出這個四個周邊的跨出去的只有\n\n09:43.516 --> 09:57.291\n站到0.8%只有台中南投跟苗栗三岸而已那99%就會是這個樣子的狀況根本就是跨出學校門口以外我就沒有路可以走了問題\n\n09:59.720 --> 10:14.075\n這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎也是會嘛所以我們來看南韓南韓事實上花了28年他們在1988年到2016年他們做了幾件事把學區的定義清楚\n\n10:15.325 --> 10:32.797\n還有呢標誌標訊否學校讓人家很清楚不是像我們只有一個檯面讓人家非常清楚的知道說學區到了還有個數限30那他們花了28年我認為台灣大概沒有辦法有這麼多年因為我們的出生率是一直下降\n\n10:33.464 --> 10:54.190\n去年都只到13萬我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握可是他們下降96%非常難所以我也希望說我們有能不能可以也像他們一樣所以希望比照比照我們的我不敢講說要到韓國或到日本可不可以在學校為中心點\n\n10:55.680 --> 11:07.035\n擴散150公尺不用到300韓國是300日本是500所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的所以我們就希望說可不可以有一個清楚的定義學區然後有否學校的標誌標線跟樹線\n\n11:10.259 --> 11:39.298\n我不知道部長或院長怎麼看尤其是院長這邊謝謝委員對孩子的關心我想這個學區的法治化的話恐怕不只有內政部包括交通部還有教育部還有地方政府因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府都要一起來討論那您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做可是現在會碰到現實的困難就是越舊的學區人口越多就會像您剛所PO出來在新北的地區它可能一出去就是快速道路\n\n11:39.958 --> 12:00.765\n那這部分呢我們在工程改善上面或者是說在學區的這個定義上面怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討讓我們有機會跟這三個部會一起來處理學區法治化的問題那確保那個通學的安全比較重要我相信因為院長應該也在院務會都有討論我知道也很努力所以我還是希望能夠\n\n12:01.525 --> 12:19.646\n有一個進一步的示範區出來之後讓大家管委人資之後可以比照了另外困境3就是改善的進度我覺得還是太少太慢為什麼講因為為什麼112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還是沒有完工的狀態\n\n12:22.034 --> 12:38.357\n為什麼會這麼慢原因是因為我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的一個工作因為他既然是做總機呢他就是把很多問題都丟給提案的學校那提案學校來做那他們寫的東西學校不是一個工程單位他寫的東西都不符合事實上\n\n12:38.897 --> 12:57.454\n我們公共工程裡面要改善的這種樣態那最後就會是什麼我們的國土署也很辛苦省的案子還要一直來回來回溝通然後溝通到好的時候要做的時候做到一半又是我剛剛提的里長議員反對的時候又改回來又來變更計畫所以就會變成速度上事實上是慢的\n\n12:58.175 --> 13:20.167\n那可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況所以可不可以要求未來標案未來他們要來申請案子的時候要求地方政府要拿出這些數據拿出他這些東西來作為一個依據然後另外一個是不是可以要求拜託一下就是說可不可以讓我們的\n\n13:22.355 --> 13:48.613\n中央是不是可以提供學校一些交通改善的一個方向在而且也期待能夠公民團體一起參與公民團體可以做的一件好事情就是說他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力我覺得應該要善用公民團體的一個他們的能量那2021年我們的CRC國際審查委員\n\n13:49.209 --> 14:14.004\n他很了解台灣的問題他說政府已經採取許多措施肯認我們解決了交通事故的死傷問題包括交通安全教育跟建立校園的停車區可是他也認為委員會也覺得說建議中央政府要採取行動來確保地方層級在執行相關法規的時候來確保我們兒少對交通事故跟運輸政策制定的私自參與\n\n14:15.705 --> 14:32.372\n明年我們要交第三次國家報告了這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候我們怎麼去回應他的確提出來說台灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了所以有效的措施才能夠解決問題\n\n14:33.712 --> 14:54.044\n所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作那當然我想說部長也會覺得學校要地方政府那我覺得可能中央也要來促使我們的地方政府能夠積極的協助不是地方政府都沒有責任就把它丟到一個學校那這樣子學校通常他做不了事情\n\n14:55.123 --> 15:13.931\n縣市政府才是實際的執行單位要確認這個角色還有要強化跨單位的合作那跨單位可能他的公務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校而不是把它丟給一個學校這樣子的話學校大半沒辦法做事而且教育單位要來彙整路徑\n\n15:14.671 --> 15:38.681\n學校周遭的那個路徑因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料可是江部有一個很好的道安資訊平台是可以得到的那我也希望部長這邊是不是可以調整補助計畫的程序引進交通工程的專業來支持還有呢外部的支持那個資源譬如說公民團體交通的專業當然有引進我三項公民委員報告第一個\n\n15:40.265 --> 16:08.219\n我們學校做商一定需要地方政府合作很多的領取等等第二個我們原來規定原來的企劃是四百個學校一年完成兩百個目前的商場也增加我會把四百個完全結束第二個新的學校做商的這個環境政策我要求再增加一段一定要延伸到一個足以安排學生的學生學動盪還可以把這種風促的環境謝謝因為去年的商場新的商場我剛好已經下降了那後面\n\n16:14.162 --> 16:25.449\n好謝謝林月琴委員質詢謝謝卓院長內政部長的備詢謝謝接下來登記第八位王逸川委員質詢書面提出\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.925,"end":23.173,"text":"謝謝主席好 那麻煩我們的卓院長跟有事發問部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備詢林委員好院長部長早"},{"start":35.546,"end":51.774,"text":"那今天要來跟你討論一個我們的通學環境的一個課題這是我從民間就一直在關心然後呢進來立法院一年多也一直在關注的一個議題雖然今天透過這樣的一個總質詢事上是"},{"start":52.318,"end":78.666,"text":"可以針對於現在行政部門在努力的一個計劃案能夠更有知道一些困境之後是不是可以有更有一個方向去調動所以首先先問部長首先先問院長就針對於我們7到15歲的交通傷亡的狀態你覺得是有改善還是沒有改善包括學童包括青少年的事件就7到15歲"},{"start":80.905,"end":106.882,"text":"我們在行人的永續提升行人安全道路上面針對學校也對重要路口都有進行相關的工作那我當然希望降低但是目前降低的幅度應該是不大是像部長都有院長也充分掌握了那現在兒少的主動出行的這樣交通事故事實上目前看起來事實上"},{"start":108.164,"end":131.819,"text":"去年事實上是歷年最高而且尤其是自行車事實上是成長大概在五年前事實上成長了四成所以就想要問的是 當然我知道就是說如果是主動出行還涵蓋行人跟其他的交通運據那不過如果從行人來看的話我覺得還是要肯認我們的院長跟部長的努力的確提出了一些"},{"start":132.287,"end":158.036,"text":"相關的對應措施讓行人的傷亡事實上是7到15歲事實上是下降的不過當然也因為學上放學如果總體看上放學的數據事實上是還是高的所以我們就要來看就是說你們最近在一直在提出來的就是通學環境的改善計畫在通學改善計畫當中想問部長是不是了解到有一些問題事實上"},{"start":162.119,"end":172.983,"text":"你能不能充分掌握到有沒有一些困境非常謝謝林委員對於兒少尤其是交通安全的關心而且是長久以來的一個志工的工作我們非常的佩服"},{"start":173.85,"end":195.311,"text":"其實在院長的指導之下我們有一個永續提升人行安全計畫內政部所負責是260億交通部是140億但是我們現在所提的永續人行安全計畫對於學校周邊的部分僅注重於由地方政府所提上來的譬如說學校的周邊可能是一個四方形但是我們可針對這個門口"},{"start":196.972,"end":221.657,"text":"後門或是側門的部分它可能是一個漏巷可能是一個不是有大車子要經過的地方這個部分地方政府沒有提上來的時候我們上交通部或者是內政部再提供這樣子的一個改善計畫就忽略掉這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向我想我們部長也很充分掌握雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年可是都充分掌握"},{"start":222.017,"end":250.2,"text":"不過有三個課題想來跟部長做一個討論大家好像都想改革只是看起來沒有人想要改變而且學區韓規韓可是沒有法規我覺得改善的進度事實上有一點慢為什麼這麼講首先我想問跟部長來看一下這張圖也就是說左邊跟右邊哪一個這是雲林縣古坑鄉的人行道的爭議哪一個是改善前哪一個是改善後"},{"start":255.218,"end":277.548,"text":"看起來沒有看起來沒有看起來右邊有改善但是呢這裡面的指引呢不是很清楚實際上左邊事實上是改善前可是他也不能講改善前是你們補助經費之後他改善成改善前可是後來民眾反對又改回來原來的樣子叫做改善後所以那筆錢簡直就是"},{"start":278.615,"end":307.551,"text":"沒有意義就是它等於事實上是效果有限而且所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通所以我才會講說大家好像都要改革可是好像沒有人要改變民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的有可能事實上是認知錯誤為什麼講認知錯誤甚至有民眾提出來說為什麼限縮我們的車道然後要鋪設人行道那這樣行車很危險我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋甚至"},{"start":308.271,"end":325.208,"text":"有時候民代里長跟議員都出面反對的時候常常做到一半就會像我們剛剛看到雲林縣股根鄉最後又改回來原來樣子那前面花的錢不是都是浪費的嗎甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難比如說"},{"start":326.052,"end":348.921,"text":"被謾罵或者甚至被黑衣人包圍的我們就會收到這樣子的一個訊息可是我們看日本的一個經驗來看的話他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作所以他們會用工作坊意見交流的會議甚至透過問卷調查"},{"start":350.242,"end":363.702,"text":"然後來共同制定相關的計畫然後甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫然後滾動式的去檢討甚至有去入校宣導甚至會有去做稽查"},{"start":364.381,"end":393.981,"text":"台湾不是没有,为什么?因为我们在113年5月1号就通过了行政条例,第六条也赋予了一些责任,说你要针对环境调查,第七条也赋予了说要跟当地的民众好好的去做沟通,甚至有一个范例可以依循的就是台南,台南事实上是公民团体跟政府一起配合,台南人本交通协会一直在宣导说,你做人行道就送车位,"},{"start":394.421,"end":417.465,"text":"你還是有車位不要用車位來阻擋人行道的鋪設所以才能重得市場就是一個很好的範例所以不是沒有一個好的例子在做所以也期待是不是可以針對於這樣子的第一個困境裡邊可以去考量嗎中央應該輔導地方政府來針對協助提案單位"},{"start":418.175,"end":436.589,"text":"還有呢當然我覺得要做一些社會溝通了解民眾的需求到底是什麼他們的反對的聲浪到底又是什麼而且希望能夠透過工程設計跟兼顧人形設施的那個設置跟停車的需求來達到大家有共識之後然後去布設才不會像"},{"start":437.162,"end":460.438,"text":"雲林縣谷坑鄉這樣子的一個反覆最後沒有解決問題那我也想問部長有沒有機會因為大家都沒有看過好的範例可不可以優先補助我們的改善效益高且執行可行性的地點比如說六都找個兩個地點四番地點讓民眾感受到好的地方的時候他們很多家長才會想說我也想要比照這樣辦"},{"start":461.278,"end":481.748,"text":"我不知道部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎謝謝委員我想委員你提供一個非常好的觀點就是說光是工程設施的改善或者是光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全尤其是校園安全上的顧慮所以你倡議希望能夠加入所謂的公民參與"},{"start":483.149,"end":504.784,"text":"或者是加入志工團體那如果說有很好的案例的話目前我們會提供六個直轄市政府先辦理兩處通學區的改善示範計畫那如果有機會的話我們也請委員一起來參與就是說裡面的學校的家長團體或者是外面的有關於交通安全的不一定是只有警察或者交通警察或者是村里長"},{"start":505.805,"end":531.07,"text":"他們都可以加入讓大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園的學童的通學的安全這是我們最大的希望謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾因為你們已經很努力做只是說我覺得線維問題還是要去解決讓民眾的反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會第二個困境就是說我們好像講學區可是學區到底是什麼可是我們看這張圖的話我們現在做法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了"},{"start":531.65,"end":545.47,"text":"甚至我覺得在看這個排名的時候我覺得不太可思議的地方就是說我們的數字線還是50到60那在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況所以我們的通學區 通學道路 通學路廊"},{"start":548.254,"end":565.548,"text":"我們的內政部有一些定義在可是如果走到地方的話我覺得有點讓我們覺得傻眼什麼通學項竟然還只是沒有給人行道只是一個通學項來封閉時段根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題他們上放學的一個困難所以學校呢"},{"start":566.028,"end":582.994,"text":"可能基層都會是我覺得孤軍奮戰的結果那目前全額補助的區目前大概都是申請的都是學校四個圍牆周邊有人行道那如果跨出這個四個周邊的跨出去的只有"},{"start":583.516,"end":597.291,"text":"站到0.8%只有台中南投跟苗栗三岸而已那99%就會是這個樣子的狀況根本就是跨出學校門口以外我就沒有路可以走了問題"},{"start":599.72,"end":614.075,"text":"這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎也是會嘛所以我們來看南韓南韓事實上花了28年他們在1988年到2016年他們做了幾件事把學區的定義清楚"},{"start":615.325,"end":632.797,"text":"還有呢標誌標訊否學校讓人家很清楚不是像我們只有一個檯面讓人家非常清楚的知道說學區到了還有個數限30那他們花了28年我認為台灣大概沒有辦法有這麼多年因為我們的出生率是一直下降"},{"start":633.464,"end":654.19,"text":"去年都只到13萬我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握可是他們下降96%非常難所以我也希望說我們有能不能可以也像他們一樣所以希望比照比照我們的我不敢講說要到韓國或到日本可不可以在學校為中心點"},{"start":655.68,"end":667.035,"text":"擴散150公尺不用到300韓國是300日本是500所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的所以我們就希望說可不可以有一個清楚的定義學區然後有否學校的標誌標線跟樹線"},{"start":670.259,"end":699.298,"text":"我不知道部長或院長怎麼看尤其是院長這邊謝謝委員對孩子的關心我想這個學區的法治化的話恐怕不只有內政部包括交通部還有教育部還有地方政府因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府都要一起來討論那您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做可是現在會碰到現實的困難就是越舊的學區人口越多就會像您剛所PO出來在新北的地區它可能一出去就是快速道路"},{"start":699.958,"end":720.765,"text":"那這部分呢我們在工程改善上面或者是說在學區的這個定義上面怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討讓我們有機會跟這三個部會一起來處理學區法治化的問題那確保那個通學的安全比較重要我相信因為院長應該也在院務會都有討論我知道也很努力所以我還是希望能夠"},{"start":721.525,"end":739.646,"text":"有一個進一步的示範區出來之後讓大家管委人資之後可以比照了另外困境3就是改善的進度我覺得還是太少太慢為什麼講因為為什麼112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還是沒有完工的狀態"},{"start":742.034,"end":758.357,"text":"為什麼會這麼慢原因是因為我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的一個工作因為他既然是做總機呢他就是把很多問題都丟給提案的學校那提案學校來做那他們寫的東西學校不是一個工程單位他寫的東西都不符合事實上"},{"start":758.897,"end":777.454,"text":"我們公共工程裡面要改善的這種樣態那最後就會是什麼我們的國土署也很辛苦省的案子還要一直來回來回溝通然後溝通到好的時候要做的時候做到一半又是我剛剛提的里長議員反對的時候又改回來又來變更計畫所以就會變成速度上事實上是慢的"},{"start":778.175,"end":800.167,"text":"那可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況所以可不可以要求未來標案未來他們要來申請案子的時候要求地方政府要拿出這些數據拿出他這些東西來作為一個依據然後另外一個是不是可以要求拜託一下就是說可不可以讓我們的"},{"start":802.355,"end":828.613,"text":"中央是不是可以提供學校一些交通改善的一個方向在而且也期待能夠公民團體一起參與公民團體可以做的一件好事情就是說他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力我覺得應該要善用公民團體的一個他們的能量那2021年我們的CRC國際審查委員"},{"start":829.209,"end":854.004,"text":"他很了解台灣的問題他說政府已經採取許多措施肯認我們解決了交通事故的死傷問題包括交通安全教育跟建立校園的停車區可是他也認為 委員會也覺得說建議中央政府要採取行動來確保地方層級在執行相關法規的時候來確保我們兒少對交通事故跟運輸政策制定的私自參與"},{"start":855.705,"end":872.372,"text":"明年我們要交第三次國家報告了這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候我們怎麼去回應他的確提出來說台灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了所以有效的措施才能夠解決問題"},{"start":873.712,"end":894.044,"text":"所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作那當然我想說部長也會覺得學校要地方政府那我覺得可能中央也要來促使我們的地方政府能夠積極的協助不是地方政府都沒有責任就把它丟到一個學校那這樣子學校通常他做不了事情"},{"start":895.123,"end":913.931,"text":"縣市政府才是實際的執行單位要確認這個角色還有要強化跨單位的合作那跨單位可能他的公務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校而不是把它丟給一個學校這樣子的話學校大半沒辦法做事而且教育單位要來彙整路徑"},{"start":914.671,"end":938.681,"text":"學校周遭的那個路徑因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料可是江部有一個很好的道安資訊平台是可以得到的那我也希望部長這邊是不是可以調整補助計畫的程序引進交通工程的專業來支持還有呢外部的支持那個資源譬如說公民團體交通的專業當然有引進我三項公民委員報告第一個"},{"start":940.265,"end":968.219,"text":"我們學校做商一定需要地方政府合作很多的領取等等第二個我們原來規定原來的企劃是四百個學校一年完成兩百個目前的商場也增加我會把四百個完全結束第二個新的學校做商的這個環境政策我要求再增加一段一定要延伸到一個足以安排學生的學生學動盪還可以把這種風促的環境謝謝因為去年的商場新的商場我剛好已經下降了那後面"},{"start":974.162,"end":985.449,"text":"好 謝謝林月琴委員質詢謝謝卓院長內政部長的備詢 謝謝接下來登記第八位王逸川委員質詢書面提出"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":486,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（10時23分）謝謝主席，麻煩卓院長跟劉世芳部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、內政部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：院長、部長早。今天要來跟你討論一個有關通學環境的課題，這是我從民間就一直關心、進來立法院一年多，也一直關注的一個議題，希望透過今天這樣一個總質詢，針對現在行政部門在努力的計畫案，在知道一些困境之後，可以更有一個方向去調動。首先先請問院長，針對7到15歲的交通傷亡狀態，你覺得有改善還是沒有改善？"],["卓院長榮泰：包括學童，包括青少年的事件？"],["林委員月琴：對，就是7到15歲。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在行人的永續提升人行安全計畫中，針對學校及重要路口，都有進行相關工作，我們當然希望能降低事故，但目前降低的幅度應該是不大。"],["林委員月琴：是，我想院長也都有充分掌握，兒少主動出行的交通事故，事實上，去年是歷年來最高的，尤其是自行車部分，大概較五年前成長了四成。當然我知道主動出行涵蓋行人跟其他交通運具，不過如果從行人來看，我覺得還是要肯認院長跟部長的努力，的確提出了一些相關的對應措施，讓7歲到15歲行人的傷亡事實上是下降的。如果總體看，上、放學的數據事實上還是高的，所以我們就要來看你們最近一直提出來的通學環境改善計畫，在計畫當中想問部長是不是瞭解一些問題……你能不能充分掌握到……"],["劉部長世芳：怎麼改善？"],["林委員月琴：有沒有一些困境？"],["劉部長世芳：非常謝謝林委員對於兒少，尤其是交通安全的關心，而且是長久以來志工的工作，我們非常地佩服。其實在院長的指導之下，我們有一個永續提升人行安全計畫，內政部所負責的是260億，交通部是140億，但是我們現在所提的永續提升人行安全計畫對於學校周邊的部分僅注重由地方政府提上來的，譬如學校的周邊可能是一個四方形，但是我們可能是針對這個門口，至於後門或側門的部分，它可能是一個陋巷、可能是一個大車子不能經過的地方，這個部分地方政府沒有提上來的時候，我們交通部或內政部在提供這樣子的一個改善計畫時就會忽略掉，這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向。"],["林委員月琴：是，我想部長也很充分掌握了，雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年，可是都充分掌握了。我有三個課題想跟部長討論，就是大家好像都想改革，但是看起來沒有人想要改變，而且學區喊歸喊，可是沒有法規，我覺得改善的進度事實上是有一點慢。為什麼這麼講？首先我想問，也跟部長來看一下這張圖，這是雲林縣古坑鄉人行道的爭議，左邊跟右邊哪一個是改善前，哪一個是改善後？"],["劉部長世芳：看起來是右邊有改善，但是這裡面的指引不是很清楚。"],["林委員月琴：實際上左邊是「改善前」，可是它也不能講是改善前，是你們補助經費之後它改善成改善前，可是後來民眾反對，又改回原來的樣子叫做「改善後」，所以那筆錢簡直就是沒有意義，它等於事實上是……"],["劉部長世芳：效果有限。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通，所以我才會講，大家好像都要改革，可是好像沒有人要改變，民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的，有可能是認知錯誤。為什麼講是認知錯誤？甚至有民眾提出來說，為什麼要限縮我們的車道，然後舖設人行道，這樣行車很危險啊？我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋，有時候甚至民代、里長跟議員都出面反對，常常做到一半，就會像我們剛剛看到的雲林縣古坑鄉最後又改回原來的樣子，那前面花的錢不就全都浪費了嗎？甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難？譬如被謾罵，或者甚至是被黑衣人包圍，我們就會收到這樣子的訊息。","可是我們看日本的經驗，他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作，所以他們會用工作坊、意見交流的會議，甚至透過問卷調查共同制定相關的計畫，甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫，然後去滾動式地檢討，甚至是入校宣導和去做稽查。臺灣不是沒有，為什麼？因為我們在113年5月1日就通過了行人條例，第六條也賦予了一些責任，像是你要針對環境調查；第七條也賦予要跟當地的民眾好好地溝通，甚至有一個範例可以依循的就是臺南，臺南事實上是公民團體跟政府一起配合，也就是臺南人本交通促進協會一直在宣導，做人行道就送車位。你還是有車位，不要用車位來阻擋人行道的舖設，所以臺南崇德市場就是一個很好的範例，並不是沒有一個好的例子，所以也期待是不是可以針對第一個困境去考量嗎？中央應該輔導地方政府針對、協助提案單位，當然也要做一些社會溝通，瞭解民眾的需求到底是什麼、他們反對的聲浪到底又是什麼，而且希望能夠透過工程設計兼顧人行設施的設置及停車的需求，大家達到共識之後再去布設，才不會像雲林縣古坑鄉這樣反覆，最後沒有解決問題。","我也想問部長有沒有機會，因為大家都沒有看過好的範例，可不可以優先補助改善效益高，且具執行可行性的地點？比如在六都找2個示範地點，讓民眾感受到優點的時候，很多家長才會想要比照這樣辦理，部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員，我想委員提供一個非常好的觀點，光是工程設施的改善，或者光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作，沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全，尤其是校園安全上的顧慮，所以你倡議希望能夠加入公民參與或者是加入志工團體。如果有很好的案例的話，目前我們會提供6個直轄市政府先辦理2處通學區的改善示範計畫，如果有機會的話，我們也請委員一起來參與，包括學校裡面的家長團體，或者是外面有關於交通安全的，不一定是只有警察或是交通警察或者是村里長，他們都可以加入，大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園學童通學的安全，這是我們最大的希望。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾，因為你們已經很努力做，只是我覺得有些微問題還是要去解決，讓民眾反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會啦！","第二個困境就是我們講學區，可是學區到底是什麼？我們看這張圖，現在的作法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了，甚至我在看這個牌面的時候覺得有點不可思議，就是我們的速限還是50到60，在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況。對於我們的通學區、通學道路、通學路廊，交通部跟內政部有一些定義在，可是如果走到地方，我覺得有點讓人傻眼，什麼通學巷，竟然沒有給人行道，只是用一個通學巷的封閉時段，這根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題、他們上、放學的困難。我覺得學校等基層都會覺得是孤軍奮戰，你們目前全額補助的區域，申請的大概都是學校4個圍牆周邊有人行道，跨出這4個周邊的部分只有占0.8%，只有臺中、南投跟苗栗3案而已，其他99%就會是這個樣子的狀況，根本就是跨出學校門口以外就沒有路可以走了，這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎？也是會嘛！","我們來看南韓，事實上南韓花28年，他們在1988年到2016年做了幾件事，把學區定義清楚，還有學校的標誌、標線讓人家很清楚，不是像我們只有一個牌面，讓人家非常清楚地知道學區到了，還有速限30。他們花了28年，我認為臺灣大概沒辦法有這麼多年，因為我們的出生率一直下降，去年的出生人數只有13.5萬人，我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握，可是他們的死亡人數下降96%，非常難達到，我希望我們能不能也像他們一樣，所以希望能夠比照，我不敢講說要到韓國或日本的程度，但可不可以以學校為中心點，擴散150公尺？不用到300公尺，韓國是300公尺，日本是500公尺，所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的。因此我們希望可不可以清楚的定義學區，然後有for學校的標誌、標線跟速限，我不知道部長或院長怎麼看，尤其是院長這邊。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員對孩子的關心，我想這個學區的法制化，恐怕不只有內政部，包括交通部、教育部，還有地方政府，因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府，都要一起來討論。您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做，可是現在會碰到現實的困難，就是越舊的學區人口越多，就會像您剛剛所秀出來的圖片，在新北的地區可能一出去就是快速道路，這部分我們在工程改善上，或者是在學區的定義上，怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討，讓我們有機會跟這3個部會一起來處理學區法制化的問題，確保通學的安全比較重要。"],["林委員月琴：因為院長應該在院務會議也都有討論，我知道也很努力，所以我還是希望能夠有一個進一步的示範區出來，讓大家廣為人知之後可以比照。","另外，困境三就是我覺得改善的進度還是太少、太慢，為什麼這麼說？因為112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還沒完工，為什麼會這麼慢？原因就是我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的工作，他既然是做總機，他就是把很多問題都丟給提案學校來做，但學校不是工程單位，他寫的東西事實上都不符合公共工程裡面要改善的樣態，所以最後就會怎麼樣？就是我們的國土署很辛苦，審的案子還要一直來回、來回的溝通，然後溝通到好、要做的時候，做到一半又是發生我剛剛提的狀況，遇到里長、議員反對的時候，又改回來、又來變更計畫，所以就會變成速度上是慢的。可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔！地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況，所以未來他們要來申請案子的時候，可不可以要求地方政府要拿出這些數據、拿出這些東西來作為一個依據？然後另外一個，是不是可以要求、拜託一下，中央可不可以提供學校一些交通改善的方向？而且也期待公民團體也能夠一起參與，公民團體可以做的一件事情就是，他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力，我覺得應該也要善用公民團體的能量。","CRC國際審查委員很了解臺灣的問題，他在2021年的時候提到，政府已經採取許多措施解決交通事故的死傷問題，包括交通安全教育及建立校園安全停車區。他肯認我們，可是委員會也說，建議中央政府要採取行動，確保地方層級確實執行相關法規，以及兒少對道路交通及運輸政策制定的實質參與。明年我們要交第三次國家報告了，這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見，可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候，我們要怎麼去回應？他的確提出來說，臺灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了，有效的措施才能夠解決問題，所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作，當然我想部長也會覺得，因為學校要地方政府協助，但我覺得可能中央也要來促使地方政府能夠積極的協助，不是地方政府都沒有責任，就把它丟給一個學校，這樣子通常學校做不了事情，所以縣市政府才是實際的執行單位，要確認這個角色。還有要強化跨單位的合作，可能他的工務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校，而不是把它丟給一個學校，這樣子學校大部分都沒辦法做事，而且教育單位要來彙整學校周遭的路徑，因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料，可是交通部有個很好的道安資訊平臺是可以得到的。我也希望部長可以調整補助計畫的程序，引進交通工程的專業來支持，還有外部的支持資源，譬如說公民團體。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，交通的專業當然有引進，我三項跟委員報告：第一個，這個事情，尤其學校周遭一定需要地方政府合作，包括很多土地的取得等等。第二個，我們原來的計畫是400所學校，第一年完成200所，目前稍有增加，我們會把400所完全結束。第三個，新的學校周遭的安全設施，我要求再增加一項，一定要延伸到足以安全的人行通道，工程才可以算是完成，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：感謝院長，因為去年行人傷亡人數兒少的部分已經有下降了，後續你們還是要持續努力，給孩子一個安全的路，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們會注意最後的調整，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、內政部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第8位王義川委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後繼續進行質詢，謝謝。","休息（10時39分）","繼續開會（10時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143701_00012"}}}