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119.932, \"end\": 120.072, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 120.072, \"end\": 120.312, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"命\", \"start\": 120.312, \"end\": 120.972, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 120.972, \"end\": 121.092, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 121.092, \"end\": 121.192, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 121.192, \"end\": 121.813, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 121.813, \"end\": 121.973, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 121.973, \"end\": 122.233, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 122.233, \"end\": 122.253, \"score\": 0.579}]}, {\"start\": 122.993, \"end\": 144.405, \"text\": \"其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 122.993, \"end\": 124.154, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 124.154, \"end\": 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00:00:57,122\n吳委好院長好上個月我們賴總統他有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱說中國是境外敵對勢力因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力的來因應這個做法那我在這裡想要先講一下我們在六七十年代\n\n3\n00:00:58,362 --> 00:01:15,767\n六七十年前那個時候我們都會念保密防諜人人有責檢舉匪諜保家衛國小心匪諜就在你身邊大家都耳熟能詳朗朗上口但是我們發現匪諜一直都在\n\n4\n00:01:16,827 --> 00:01:37,063\n特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重不僅僅滲透到政府機關也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊所以在這邊我也很擔心因為我們在立法院我們常常看到有很多的委員他會拿國台辦的稿子來質詢然後從來不檢討中國\n\n5\n00:01:41,286 --> 00:02:02,253\n反而是幫著中國去檢討美國日本那我認為這個就是癌細胞要拔除要不然會動搖國本所以我在這邊特別要來關心一下就是關於土地的問題因為對我們原住民來講土地就是我們的山林我們的家我們的生命那我在這邊要先提\n\n6\n00:02:02,993 --> 00:02:24,405\n其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至\n\n7\n00:02:25,265 --> 00:02:47,950\n美國總統拜登他在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令因為有一個中國公民他買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地迫使美國總統必須用行政命令來要求他售出為什麼因為無法可貫那我在想如果說台灣\n\n8\n00:02:49,298 --> 00:03:03,516\n的機敏設施沒有這些周邊土地被中資滲透我覺得也很難讓人相信所以在這邊關於中資買地的問題其實常常也有人討論以財訊雜誌來講他在2014年的時候曾經說過\n\n9\n00:03:08,081 --> 00:03:26,573\n中國到處全世界買土地買企業買個資買人心無所不買可是他在去年出了一個經典重現他說十年了問題依然如此那我自己呢我們看到在花蓮因為那邊有很多原住民的土地\n\n10\n00:03:27,313 --> 00:03:42,547\n像是理想大地的案外案就引發說是不是傅坤祺他引中資買地甚至在去年嘉山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地又或者說像我們的元寶地\n\n11\n00:03:43,649 --> 00:04:04,714\n富坤奇他讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園縣政府想要在那個地方做開發那我們到底有沒有防範的機制我們來看我們的兩岸人民關係條例有在第73條第一項有說就是這些大陸地區的人民法人團體如果他們要做投資是需要主管機關經濟部的許可\n\n12\n00:04:06,494 --> 00:04:23,727\n那麼如果要買地呢有在第69條第一項他是要跟主管機關內政部要取得許可所以我現在先請教我們陸委會主委請問中國人是用人頭在台違法投資該不該罰報告委員\n\n13\n00:04:27,642 --> 00:04:52,891\n我們以投資而言如果是用人頭投資的話依我們現行的這些罰則它跟當事人一樣人頭也是要負刑責還有罰還是一樣的好謝謝所以這是在2019年增訂的第93條之一第一項第一款第二款對不對要罰投資者也要罰人頭那我再請教一下主委\n\n14\n00:04:53,351 --> 00:05:22,020\n那中國人士如果用人頭在談違法買地,該不該罰?那長長,跟委員報告其實我們對於陸資來,或是路人、自然人來買我們的這些房地產、土地基本上我們的兩岸條例基本上是許可制的是嚴格許可所以沒有罰嘛,所以沒有罰好,那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長\n\n15\n00:05:24,653 --> 00:05:25,594\n請內政部備選請教內政部長如果中資用人頭購買土地算不算借民登記算\n\n16\n00:05:39,522 --> 00:06:05,587\n那我們一般都是參考什麼呢最高法院在99年的一個民事判決也是目前法律定義的一個通說那簡單來講就是說我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上但是我願意讓你來管理這個叫做借名登記那如果按照剛剛的一個民事判決的定義那請教一下內政部長中資如果用人頭買地算不算借名登記\n\n17\n00:06:06,707 --> 00:06:21,848\n算好那請問有效還是無效無效因為一個是中國人一個是台灣人所以他中國人的話他要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例的相關規定來辦理好那部長所以\n\n18\n00:06:22,428 --> 00:06:44,700\n這是你的見解那我們來看一下民事判決的見解也是這麼說只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定它是有效的喔但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例它到底有沒有禁止它這個地方它說一定要獲得許可才能夠取得土地所以問題就來了\n\n19\n00:06:46,081 --> 00:07:02,873\n我們看這個表格如果他不是禁止規定那就是表示屆民登記有效也就是說中國人可以不經許可就可以人頭夠地但是這個條文到底有什麼意義因為大家就去找人頭就好啦\n\n20\n00:07:03,493 --> 00:07:20,871\n好如果他是禁止規定那就是代表屆民登記是無效的但是剛才的兩岸人民關係條例的第69條我們有看到只有民事上無效他沒有行政法沒有刑罰所以無論有效沒有效\n\n21\n00:07:21,872 --> 00:07:49,825\n我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞當然我相信我們大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地所以呢我在這邊的第一個訴求就是說既然中國人用人頭投資要罰那麼買地也應該要比照有罰則不能只是無效那這個部分院長您覺得如何\n\n22\n00:07:52,796 --> 00:08:09,953\n本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以等於它就是一個禁止的行為除非它有非常大的特例因為它相關的規定裡面它沒有行政處罰或是刑罰這部分我們應該檢討但是如果有遇到這樣的案子至少先確定它\n\n23\n00:08:11,014 --> 00:08:38,181\n致死就無效的一個購地行為是的那這個貿民頂替的這個貿民被貿營這個人頭他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利好謝謝院長喔願意就這個部分來討論修法那接下來我當然啊我原住民我更關心原保地的部分那到底中國人中資有沒有買原保地我特別跟內政部來索資那這個地方呢經過審查人沒有問題\n\n24\n00:08:40,061 --> 00:08:53,859\n地也不是基民地區呢經過許可的共計有548件列管147件繼續列管401件好不管我現在問說那麼這些到底有沒有在原保地\n\n25\n00:08:55,037 --> 00:09:20,418\n回答我說均非屬原住民保留地我當然也知道啊為什麼因為我們根本無從得知雖然我們知道一定有但是我們無從得知那既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查那我想要來問一下袁明慧請袁明慧時間暫停我也跟你介意好了我們的議員就是三位\n\n26\n00:09:21,138 --> 00:09:24,120\n有沒有中國人士用人頭在台灣買元寶地的清查資料?\n\n27\n00:09:43,581 --> 00:10:12,680\n院長我只是要讓您清楚的知道在防堵中資擺地特別是原住民保留地是一個很大的問題目前沒有資料無從查起也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題所以我在這邊特別就是提醒像我剛剛提到的在我們這個嘉山基地的附近就是在去年兩大集團七間公司他對準嘉山基地中資\n\n28\n00:10:13,821 --> 00:10:36,270\n那為什麼我說這個地方重不重要我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演他常常去挑戰這個界線我們的嘉山基地那我們來看一下這個地圖嘉山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分然後七廳潭是靠海邊的部分你看它附近全部都是原住民保留地周邊有很多的原住民保留地\n\n29\n00:10:36,710 --> 00:11:03,659\n那我特別去國防部所知因為加3滴劑只是其中一例啊結果我所知之後原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處總計5600多公頃所以這個部分我們就很驚訝像前一陣子兩個月前媒體有揭露天啊原住民保留地的900萬購得的土地竟然可以設定2億的一個貸款\n\n30\n00:11:06,460 --> 00:11:30,896\n所以這個部分大家都說怎麼做到的還好媒體有揭露他說這個兩億不是設定給銀行是設定給開發公司那這個開發公司的背景一查有東莞的台商副會長有中國台氣聯的會長也有我們政治人物過去現長的子弟兵等等\n\n31\n00:11:31,756 --> 00:11:46,445\n如果沒有新聞爆料我們一般社會很難知道但是它不是個案我跟園民會的所知我就鎖幾個給院長聽聽看在五封鄉公告限制六萬可以擔保三千萬\n\n32\n00:11:47,505 --> 00:11:51,906\n獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3688萬復興區75萬可以擔保3000萬海端鄉160萬可以擔保5000萬信義鄉82萬可以擔保1000萬仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3000萬尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8000萬這些都只是冰山一角很可怕的是現在是集團式的收購他結合投資者\n\n33\n00:12:17,434 --> 00:12:38,662\n開發者前客政治人物他們到處到原鄉收購土地您可以看一下這個圖全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告大啦啦的廣告以林地文獻他要用現金收購也把他的手機號碼都放上去還告訴大家不要私功德無量\n\n34\n00:12:39,702 --> 00:12:59,757\n到處全國搜刮土地這些是什麼一胎二胎現金吸引民間當部資產管理公司然後呢設定抵押之後再交易給人頭這樣的情形非常的嚴重我要給我們院長看一個數據學者也在呼籲學者已經告訴我們他推估\n\n35\n00:13:00,638 --> 00:13:27,630\n我們目前已經流失的私有元寶地是45.5%也就是說超過一半已經不是原住民在實際只用就像我剛剛講的什麼叫建民登記我們兩個人講好地登記在我這邊實際的使用權在你那邊那其中多少是中資然後呢是拿來做什麼用完全不得而知所以我在這邊我們想要不要防堵有上一屆\n\n36\n00:13:28,610 --> 00:13:55,705\n行政院有把原保條例送進來有送進來原民會也做了很多的討論但是呢最終宣告沒有獲得支持他有沒有防堵在第17條草案有寫私有原保等設定工作權、點權或抵押權給非原住民只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄戶住社來做設定抵押\n\n37\n00:13:56,745 --> 00:14:24,702\n這至少是一個防堵的破口這個條例非常的重要所以呢我在這個地方要特別先謝謝院長就是我在110年透過總質詢幾度呢做了幾次禁法補償的一個質詢那一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長他有交代原民會來研議那也才113年雖然在風風雨雨之中呢我也看到\n\n38\n00:14:25,242 --> 00:14:46,605\n我們行政院對我們原保地的一個重視因為我們零務局零保署那邊的蔣府造林已經提高到六年六十萬如果我們沒有在我們的進法補償做對應我相信我們會有很大的一個山林災難那但是我在這邊就是非常的感謝我希望院長能夠責成\n\n39\n00:14:47,606 --> 00:15:08,557\n我們的相關部會要求內政部原民會陸委會協同相關部會盤查中資以人頭戶購買原保地的情形第二個我訴求希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例去修訂中資人頭買賣的一個罰則那第三個就是希望院長行政院支持原保條例\n\n40\n00:15:09,437 --> 00:15:21,013\n本會期繼續的來送立法院來審查台灣的每一塊土地都很重要我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力是不是請院長支持謝謝委員我們一定支持\n\n41\n00:15:22,479 --> 00:15:42,255\n總之進來購買任何的土地除非它經過嚴格法定的程序原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會還有內政部共同來清查那關於原住民族保留地權利回復及管理利用條例既然以前送進來過那請主委再詳細的規劃如果能夠增加國安安全\n\n42\n00:15:52,769 --> 00:15:53,634\n謝謝吳立華委員的資訊,謝謝左院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n16721\t20524\t謝謝院長主席有請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n31101\t57122\t吳委好院長好上個月我們賴總統他有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱說中國是境外敵對勢力因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力的來因應這個做法那我在這裡想要先講一下我們在六七十年代\n58362\t75767\t六七十年前 那個時候我們都會念保密防諜 人人有責檢舉匪諜 保家衛國小心 匪諜就在你身邊大家都耳熟能詳 朗朗上口但是我們發現 匪諜一直都在\n76827\t97063\t特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重不僅僅滲透到政府機關也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊所以在這邊我也很擔心因為我們在立法院我們常常看到有很多的委員他會拿國台辦的稿子來質詢然後從來不檢討中國\n101286\t122253\t反而是幫著中國去檢討美國日本那我認為這個就是癌細胞要拔除要不然會動搖國本所以我在這邊特別要來關心一下就是關於土地的問題因為對我們原住民來講土地就是我們的山林我們的家我們的生命那我在這邊要先提\n122993\t144405\t其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至\n145265\t167950\t美國總統拜登他在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令因為有一個中國公民他買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地迫使美國總統必須用行政命令來要求他售出為什麼因為無法可貫那我在想如果說台灣\n169298\t183516\t的機敏設施沒有這些周邊土地被中資滲透我覺得也很難讓人相信所以在這邊關於中資買地的問題其實常常也有人討論以財訊雜誌來講他在2014年的時候曾經說過\n188081\t206573\t中國到處全世界買土地買企業買個資買人心無所不買可是他在去年出了一個經典重現他說十年了問題依然如此那我自己呢我們看到在花蓮因為那邊有很多原住民的土地\n207313\t222547\t像是理想大地的案外案就引發說是不是傅坤祺他引中資買地甚至在去年嘉山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地又或者說像我們的元寶地\n223649\t244714\t富坤奇他讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園 縣政府想要在那個地方做開發那我們到底有沒有防範的機制我們來看我們的兩岸人民關係條例有在第73條第一項有說就是這些大陸地區的人民法人團體如果他們要做投資是需要主管機關經濟部的許可\n246494\t263727\t那麼如果要買地呢有在第69條第一項他是要跟主管機關內政部要取得許可所以我現在先請教我們陸委會主委請問中國人是用人頭在台違法投資該不該罰報告委員\n267642\t292891\t我們以投資而言 如果是用人頭投資的話依我們現行的這些罰則 它跟當事人一樣人頭也是要負刑責 還有罰還是一樣的好 謝謝所以這是在2019年增訂的第93條之一第一項 第一款 第二款 對不對要罰投資者 也要罰人頭那我再請教一下主委\n293351\t322020\t那中國人士如果用人頭在談違法買地,該不該罰?那長長,跟委員報告其實我們對於陸資來,或是路人、自然人來買我們的這些房地產、土地基本上我們的兩岸條例基本上是許可制的是嚴格許可所以沒有罰嘛,所以沒有罰好,那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長\n324653\t325594\t請內政部備選請教內政部長如果中資用人頭購買土地算不算借民登記算\n339522\t365587\t那我們一般都是參考什麼呢最高法院在99年的一個民事判決也是目前法律定義的一個通說那簡單來講就是說我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上但是我願意讓你來管理這個叫做借名登記那如果按照剛剛的一個民事判決的定義那請教一下內政部長中資如果用人頭買地算不算借名登記\n366707\t381848\t算好那請問有效還是無效無效因為一個是中國人一個是台灣人所以他中國人的話他要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例的相關規定來辦理好那部長所以\n382428\t404700\t這是你的見解那我們來看一下民事判決的見解也是這麼說只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定它是有效的喔但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例它到底有沒有禁止它這個地方它說一定要獲得許可才能夠取得土地所以問題就來了\n406081\t422873\t我們看這個表格如果他不是禁止規定那就是表示屆民登記有效也就是說中國人可以不經許可就可以人頭夠地但是這個條文到底有什麼意義因為大家就去找人頭就好啦\n423493\t440871\t好 如果他是禁止規定那就是代表屆民登記是無效的但是剛才的兩岸人民關係條例的第69條我們有看到只有民事上無效他沒有行政法 沒有刑罰所以無論有效沒有效\n441872\t469825\t我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞當然我相信我們大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地所以呢我在這邊的第一個訴求就是說既然中國人用人頭投資要罰那麼買地也應該要比照有罰則不能只是無效那這個部分院長您覺得如何\n472796\t489953\t本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以等於它就是一個禁止的行為除非它有非常大的特例因為它相關的規定裡面它沒有行政處罰或是刑罰這部分我們應該檢討但是如果有遇到這樣的案子至少先確定它\n491014\t518181\t致死就無效的一個購地行為是的那這個貿民頂替的這個貿民被貿營這個人頭他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利好 謝謝院長喔願意就這個部分來討論修法那接下來我當然啊我原住民我更關心原保地的部分那到底中國人中資有沒有買原保地我特別跟內政部來索資那這個地方呢經過審查人沒有問題\n520061\t533859\t地也不是基民地區呢經過許可的共計有548件列管147件繼續列管401件好不管我現在問說那麼這些到底有沒有在原保地\n535037\t560418\t回答我說均非屬原住民保留地我當然也知道啊為什麼因為我們根本無從得知雖然我們知道一定有但是我們無從得知那既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查那我想要來問一下袁明慧 請袁明慧時間暫停 我也跟你介意好了我們的議員就是三位\n561138\t564120\t有沒有中國人士用人頭在台灣買元寶地的清查資料?\n583581\t612680\t院長我只是要讓您清楚的知道在防堵中資擺地特別是原住民保留地是一個很大的問題目前沒有資料無從查起也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題所以我在這邊特別就是提醒像我剛剛提到的在我們這個嘉山基地的附近就是在去年兩大集團七間公司他對準嘉山基地中資\n613821\t636270\t那為什麼我說這個地方重不重要我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演他常常去挑戰這個界線我們的嘉山基地那我們來看一下這個地圖嘉山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分然後七廳潭是靠海邊的部分你看它附近全部都是原住民保留地周邊有很多的原住民保留地\n636710\t663659\t那我特別去國防部所知因為加3滴劑只是其中一例啊結果我所知之後原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處總計5600多公頃所以這個部分我們就很驚訝像前一陣子兩個月前媒體有揭露天啊原住民保留地的900萬購得的土地竟然可以設定2億的一個貸款\n666460\t690896\t所以這個部分大家都說怎麼做到的還好媒體有揭露他說這個兩億不是設定給銀行是設定給開發公司那這個開發公司的背景一查有東莞的台商副會長有中國台氣聯的會長也有我們政治人物過去現長的子弟兵等等\n691756\t706445\t如果沒有新聞爆料我們一般社會很難知道但是它不是個案我跟園民會的所知我就鎖幾個給院長聽聽看在五封鄉公告限制六萬可以擔保三千萬\n707505\t711906\t獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3688萬復興區75萬可以擔保3000萬海端鄉160萬可以擔保5000萬信義鄉82萬可以擔保1000萬仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3000萬尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8000萬這些都只是冰山一角很可怕的是現在是集團式的收購他結合投資者\n737434\t758662\t開發者 前客 政治人物他們到處到原鄉收購土地您可以看一下這個圖全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告大啦啦的廣告以林地 文獻他要用現金收購也把他的手機號碼都放上去還告訴大家不要私功德無量\n759702\t779757\t到處全國搜刮土地這些是什麼一胎二胎現金吸引民間當部資產管理公司然後呢設定抵押之後再交易給人頭這樣的情形非常的嚴重我要給我們院長看一個數據學者也在呼籲學者已經告訴我們他推估\n780638\t807630\t我們目前已經流失的私有元寶地是45.5%也就是說超過一半已經不是原住民在實際只用就像我剛剛講的什麼叫建民登記我們兩個人講好 地登記在我這邊實際的使用權在你那邊那其中多少是中資然後呢 是拿來做什麼用完全不得而知所以我在這邊我們想要不要防堵 有上一屆\n808610\t835705\t行政院有把原保條例送進來有送進來原民會也做了很多的討論但是呢 最終宣告沒有獲得支持他有沒有防堵在第17條草案有寫私有原保等設定工作權、點權或抵押權給非原住民只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄戶住社來做設定抵押\n836745\t864702\t這至少是一個防堵的破口這個條例非常的重要所以呢我在這個地方要特別先謝謝院長就是我在110年透過總質詢幾度呢做了幾次禁法補償的一個質詢那一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長他有交代原民會來研議那也才113年雖然在風風雨雨之中呢我也看到\n865242\t886605\t我們行政院對我們原保地的一個重視因為我們零務局零保署那邊的蔣府造林已經提高到六年六十萬如果我們沒有在我們的進法補償做對應我相信我們會有很大的一個山林災難那但是我在這邊就是非常的感謝我希望院長能夠責成\n887606\t908557\t我們的相關部會要求內政部 原民會 陸委會 協同相關部會盤查中資 以人頭戶購買原保地的情形第二個我訴求希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例去修訂中資人頭買賣的一個罰則那第三個就是希望院長行政院支持原保條例\n909437\t921013\t本會期繼續的來送立法院來審查台灣的每一塊土地都很重要我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力是不是請院長支持謝謝委員 我們一定支持\n922479\t942255\t總之進來購買任何的土地除非它經過嚴格法定的程序原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會還有內政部共同來清查那關於原住民族保留地權利回復及管理利用條例既然以前送進來過那請主委再詳細的規劃如果能夠增加國安安全\n952769\t953634\t謝謝吳立華委員的資訊,謝謝左院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝。\n","txt":"謝謝院長主席有請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n吳委好院長好上個月我們賴總統他有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱說中國是境外敵對勢力因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力的來因應這個做法那我在這裡想要先講一下我們在六七十年代\n六七十年前 那個時候我們都會念保密防諜 人人有責檢舉匪諜 保家衛國小心 匪諜就在你身邊大家都耳熟能詳 朗朗上口但是我們發現 匪諜一直都在\n特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重不僅僅滲透到政府機關也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊所以在這邊我也很擔心因為我們在立法院我們常常看到有很多的委員他會拿國台辦的稿子來質詢然後從來不檢討中國\n反而是幫著中國去檢討美國日本那我認為這個就是癌細胞要拔除要不然會動搖國本所以我在這邊特別要來關心一下就是關於土地的問題因為對我們原住民來講土地就是我們的山林我們的家我們的生命那我在這邊要先提\n其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至\n美國總統拜登他在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令因為有一個中國公民他買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地迫使美國總統必須用行政命令來要求他售出為什麼因為無法可貫那我在想如果說台灣\n的機敏設施沒有這些周邊土地被中資滲透我覺得也很難讓人相信所以在這邊關於中資買地的問題其實常常也有人討論以財訊雜誌來講他在2014年的時候曾經說過\n中國到處全世界買土地買企業買個資買人心無所不買可是他在去年出了一個經典重現他說十年了問題依然如此那我自己呢我們看到在花蓮因為那邊有很多原住民的土地\n像是理想大地的案外案就引發說是不是傅坤祺他引中資買地甚至在去年嘉山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地又或者說像我們的元寶地\n富坤奇他讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園 縣政府想要在那個地方做開發那我們到底有沒有防範的機制我們來看我們的兩岸人民關係條例有在第73條第一項有說就是這些大陸地區的人民法人團體如果他們要做投資是需要主管機關經濟部的許可\n那麼如果要買地呢有在第69條第一項他是要跟主管機關內政部要取得許可所以我現在先請教我們陸委會主委請問中國人是用人頭在台違法投資該不該罰報告委員\n我們以投資而言 如果是用人頭投資的話依我們現行的這些罰則 它跟當事人一樣人頭也是要負刑責 還有罰還是一樣的好 謝謝所以這是在2019年增訂的第93條之一第一項 第一款 第二款 對不對要罰投資者 也要罰人頭那我再請教一下主委\n那中國人士如果用人頭在談違法買地,該不該罰?那長長,跟委員報告其實我們對於陸資來,或是路人、自然人來買我們的這些房地產、土地基本上我們的兩岸條例基本上是許可制的是嚴格許可所以沒有罰嘛,所以沒有罰好,那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長\n請內政部備選請教內政部長如果中資用人頭購買土地算不算借民登記算\n那我們一般都是參考什麼呢最高法院在99年的一個民事判決也是目前法律定義的一個通說那簡單來講就是說我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上但是我願意讓你來管理這個叫做借名登記那如果按照剛剛的一個民事判決的定義那請教一下內政部長中資如果用人頭買地算不算借名登記\n算好那請問有效還是無效無效因為一個是中國人一個是台灣人所以他中國人的話他要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例的相關規定來辦理好那部長所以\n這是你的見解那我們來看一下民事判決的見解也是這麼說只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定它是有效的喔但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例它到底有沒有禁止它這個地方它說一定要獲得許可才能夠取得土地所以問題就來了\n我們看這個表格如果他不是禁止規定那就是表示屆民登記有效也就是說中國人可以不經許可就可以人頭夠地但是這個條文到底有什麼意義因為大家就去找人頭就好啦\n好 如果他是禁止規定那就是代表屆民登記是無效的但是剛才的兩岸人民關係條例的第69條我們有看到只有民事上無效他沒有行政法 沒有刑罰所以無論有效沒有效\n我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞當然我相信我們大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地所以呢我在這邊的第一個訴求就是說既然中國人用人頭投資要罰那麼買地也應該要比照有罰則不能只是無效那這個部分院長您覺得如何\n本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以等於它就是一個禁止的行為除非它有非常大的特例因為它相關的規定裡面它沒有行政處罰或是刑罰這部分我們應該檢討但是如果有遇到這樣的案子至少先確定它\n致死就無效的一個購地行為是的那這個貿民頂替的這個貿民被貿營這個人頭他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利好 謝謝院長喔願意就這個部分來討論修法那接下來我當然啊我原住民我更關心原保地的部分那到底中國人中資有沒有買原保地我特別跟內政部來索資那這個地方呢經過審查人沒有問題\n地也不是基民地區呢經過許可的共計有548件列管147件繼續列管401件好不管我現在問說那麼這些到底有沒有在原保地\n回答我說均非屬原住民保留地我當然也知道啊為什麼因為我們根本無從得知雖然我們知道一定有但是我們無從得知那既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查那我想要來問一下袁明慧 請袁明慧時間暫停 我也跟你介意好了我們的議員就是三位\n有沒有中國人士用人頭在台灣買元寶地的清查資料?\n院長我只是要讓您清楚的知道在防堵中資擺地特別是原住民保留地是一個很大的問題目前沒有資料無從查起也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題所以我在這邊特別就是提醒像我剛剛提到的在我們這個嘉山基地的附近就是在去年兩大集團七間公司他對準嘉山基地中資\n那為什麼我說這個地方重不重要我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演他常常去挑戰這個界線我們的嘉山基地那我們來看一下這個地圖嘉山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分然後七廳潭是靠海邊的部分你看它附近全部都是原住民保留地周邊有很多的原住民保留地\n那我特別去國防部所知因為加3滴劑只是其中一例啊結果我所知之後原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處總計5600多公頃所以這個部分我們就很驚訝像前一陣子兩個月前媒體有揭露天啊原住民保留地的900萬購得的土地竟然可以設定2億的一個貸款\n所以這個部分大家都說怎麼做到的還好媒體有揭露他說這個兩億不是設定給銀行是設定給開發公司那這個開發公司的背景一查有東莞的台商副會長有中國台氣聯的會長也有我們政治人物過去現長的子弟兵等等\n如果沒有新聞爆料我們一般社會很難知道但是它不是個案我跟園民會的所知我就鎖幾個給院長聽聽看在五封鄉公告限制六萬可以擔保三千萬\n獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3688萬復興區75萬可以擔保3000萬海端鄉160萬可以擔保5000萬信義鄉82萬可以擔保1000萬仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3000萬尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8000萬這些都只是冰山一角很可怕的是現在是集團式的收購他結合投資者\n開發者 前客 政治人物他們到處到原鄉收購土地您可以看一下這個圖全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告大啦啦的廣告以林地 文獻他要用現金收購也把他的手機號碼都放上去還告訴大家不要私功德無量\n到處全國搜刮土地這些是什麼一胎二胎現金吸引民間當部資產管理公司然後呢設定抵押之後再交易給人頭這樣的情形非常的嚴重我要給我們院長看一個數據學者也在呼籲學者已經告訴我們他推估\n我們目前已經流失的私有元寶地是45.5%也就是說超過一半已經不是原住民在實際只用就像我剛剛講的什麼叫建民登記我們兩個人講好 地登記在我這邊實際的使用權在你那邊那其中多少是中資然後呢 是拿來做什麼用完全不得而知所以我在這邊我們想要不要防堵 有上一屆\n行政院有把原保條例送進來有送進來原民會也做了很多的討論但是呢 最終宣告沒有獲得支持他有沒有防堵在第17條草案有寫私有原保等設定工作權、點權或抵押權給非原住民只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄戶住社來做設定抵押\n這至少是一個防堵的破口這個條例非常的重要所以呢我在這個地方要特別先謝謝院長就是我在110年透過總質詢幾度呢做了幾次禁法補償的一個質詢那一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長他有交代原民會來研議那也才113年雖然在風風雨雨之中呢我也看到\n我們行政院對我們原保地的一個重視因為我們零務局零保署那邊的蔣府造林已經提高到六年六十萬如果我們沒有在我們的進法補償做對應我相信我們會有很大的一個山林災難那但是我在這邊就是非常的感謝我希望院長能夠責成\n我們的相關部會要求內政部 原民會 陸委會 協同相關部會盤查中資 以人頭戶購買原保地的情形第二個我訴求希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例去修訂中資人頭買賣的一個罰則那第三個就是希望院長行政院支持原保條例\n本會期繼續的來送立法院來審查台灣的每一塊土地都很重要我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力是不是請院長支持謝謝委員 我們一定支持\n總之進來購買任何的土地除非它經過嚴格法定的程序原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會還有內政部共同來清查那關於原住民族保留地權利回復及管理利用條例既然以前送進來過那請主委再詳細的規劃如果能夠增加國安安全\n謝謝吳立華委員的資訊,謝謝左院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:16.721 --> 00:20.524\n謝謝院長主席有請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:31.101 --> 00:57.122\n吳委好院長好上個月我們賴總統他有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱說中國是境外敵對勢力因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力的來因應這個做法那我在這裡想要先講一下我們在六七十年代\n\n00:58.362 --> 01:15.767\n六七十年前那個時候我們都會念保密防諜人人有責檢舉匪諜保家衛國小心匪諜就在你身邊大家都耳熟能詳朗朗上口但是我們發現匪諜一直都在\n\n01:16.827 --> 01:37.063\n特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重不僅僅滲透到政府機關也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊所以在這邊我也很擔心因為我們在立法院我們常常看到有很多的委員他會拿國台辦的稿子來質詢然後從來不檢討中國\n\n01:41.286 --> 02:02.253\n反而是幫著中國去檢討美國日本那我認為這個就是癌細胞要拔除要不然會動搖國本所以我在這邊特別要來關心一下就是關於土地的問題因為對我們原住民來講土地就是我們的山林我們的家我們的生命那我在這邊要先提\n\n02:02.993 --> 02:24.405\n其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至\n\n02:25.265 --> 02:47.950\n美國總統拜登他在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令因為有一個中國公民他買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地迫使美國總統必須用行政命令來要求他售出為什麼因為無法可貫那我在想如果說台灣\n\n02:49.298 --> 03:03.516\n的機敏設施沒有這些周邊土地被中資滲透我覺得也很難讓人相信所以在這邊關於中資買地的問題其實常常也有人討論以財訊雜誌來講他在2014年的時候曾經說過\n\n03:08.081 --> 03:26.573\n中國到處全世界買土地買企業買個資買人心無所不買可是他在去年出了一個經典重現他說十年了問題依然如此那我自己呢我們看到在花蓮因為那邊有很多原住民的土地\n\n03:27.313 --> 03:42.547\n像是理想大地的案外案就引發說是不是傅坤祺他引中資買地甚至在去年嘉山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地又或者說像我們的元寶地\n\n03:43.649 --> 04:04.714\n富坤奇他讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園縣政府想要在那個地方做開發那我們到底有沒有防範的機制我們來看我們的兩岸人民關係條例有在第73條第一項有說就是這些大陸地區的人民法人團體如果他們要做投資是需要主管機關經濟部的許可\n\n04:06.494 --> 04:23.727\n那麼如果要買地呢有在第69條第一項他是要跟主管機關內政部要取得許可所以我現在先請教我們陸委會主委請問中國人是用人頭在台違法投資該不該罰報告委員\n\n04:27.642 --> 04:52.891\n我們以投資而言如果是用人頭投資的話依我們現行的這些罰則它跟當事人一樣人頭也是要負刑責還有罰還是一樣的好謝謝所以這是在2019年增訂的第93條之一第一項第一款第二款對不對要罰投資者也要罰人頭那我再請教一下主委\n\n04:53.351 --> 05:22.020\n那中國人士如果用人頭在談違法買地,該不該罰?那長長,跟委員報告其實我們對於陸資來,或是路人、自然人來買我們的這些房地產、土地基本上我們的兩岸條例基本上是許可制的是嚴格許可所以沒有罰嘛,所以沒有罰好,那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長\n\n05:24.653 --> 05:25.594\n請內政部備選請教內政部長如果中資用人頭購買土地算不算借民登記算\n\n05:39.522 --> 06:05.587\n那我們一般都是參考什麼呢最高法院在99年的一個民事判決也是目前法律定義的一個通說那簡單來講就是說我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上但是我願意讓你來管理這個叫做借名登記那如果按照剛剛的一個民事判決的定義那請教一下內政部長中資如果用人頭買地算不算借名登記\n\n06:06.707 --> 06:21.848\n算好那請問有效還是無效無效因為一個是中國人一個是台灣人所以他中國人的話他要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例的相關規定來辦理好那部長所以\n\n06:22.428 --> 06:44.700\n這是你的見解那我們來看一下民事判決的見解也是這麼說只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定它是有效的喔但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例它到底有沒有禁止它這個地方它說一定要獲得許可才能夠取得土地所以問題就來了\n\n06:46.081 --> 07:02.873\n我們看這個表格如果他不是禁止規定那就是表示屆民登記有效也就是說中國人可以不經許可就可以人頭夠地但是這個條文到底有什麼意義因為大家就去找人頭就好啦\n\n07:03.493 --> 07:20.871\n好如果他是禁止規定那就是代表屆民登記是無效的但是剛才的兩岸人民關係條例的第69條我們有看到只有民事上無效他沒有行政法沒有刑罰所以無論有效沒有效\n\n07:21.872 --> 07:49.825\n我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞當然我相信我們大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地所以呢我在這邊的第一個訴求就是說既然中國人用人頭投資要罰那麼買地也應該要比照有罰則不能只是無效那這個部分院長您覺得如何\n\n07:52.796 --> 08:09.953\n本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以等於它就是一個禁止的行為除非它有非常大的特例因為它相關的規定裡面它沒有行政處罰或是刑罰這部分我們應該檢討但是如果有遇到這樣的案子至少先確定它\n\n08:11.014 --> 08:38.181\n致死就無效的一個購地行為是的那這個貿民頂替的這個貿民被貿營這個人頭他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利好謝謝院長喔願意就這個部分來討論修法那接下來我當然啊我原住民我更關心原保地的部分那到底中國人中資有沒有買原保地我特別跟內政部來索資那這個地方呢經過審查人沒有問題\n\n08:40.061 --> 08:53.859\n地也不是基民地區呢經過許可的共計有548件列管147件繼續列管401件好不管我現在問說那麼這些到底有沒有在原保地\n\n08:55.037 --> 09:20.418\n回答我說均非屬原住民保留地我當然也知道啊為什麼因為我們根本無從得知雖然我們知道一定有但是我們無從得知那既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查那我想要來問一下袁明慧請袁明慧時間暫停我也跟你介意好了我們的議員就是三位\n\n09:21.138 --> 09:24.120\n有沒有中國人士用人頭在台灣買元寶地的清查資料?\n\n09:43.581 --> 10:12.680\n院長我只是要讓您清楚的知道在防堵中資擺地特別是原住民保留地是一個很大的問題目前沒有資料無從查起也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題所以我在這邊特別就是提醒像我剛剛提到的在我們這個嘉山基地的附近就是在去年兩大集團七間公司他對準嘉山基地中資\n\n10:13.821 --> 10:36.270\n那為什麼我說這個地方重不重要我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演他常常去挑戰這個界線我們的嘉山基地那我們來看一下這個地圖嘉山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分然後七廳潭是靠海邊的部分你看它附近全部都是原住民保留地周邊有很多的原住民保留地\n\n10:36.710 --> 11:03.659\n那我特別去國防部所知因為加3滴劑只是其中一例啊結果我所知之後原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處總計5600多公頃所以這個部分我們就很驚訝像前一陣子兩個月前媒體有揭露天啊原住民保留地的900萬購得的土地竟然可以設定2億的一個貸款\n\n11:06.460 --> 11:30.896\n所以這個部分大家都說怎麼做到的還好媒體有揭露他說這個兩億不是設定給銀行是設定給開發公司那這個開發公司的背景一查有東莞的台商副會長有中國台氣聯的會長也有我們政治人物過去現長的子弟兵等等\n\n11:31.756 --> 11:46.445\n如果沒有新聞爆料我們一般社會很難知道但是它不是個案我跟園民會的所知我就鎖幾個給院長聽聽看在五封鄉公告限制六萬可以擔保三千萬\n\n11:47.505 --> 11:51.906\n獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3688萬復興區75萬可以擔保3000萬海端鄉160萬可以擔保5000萬信義鄉82萬可以擔保1000萬仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3000萬尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8000萬這些都只是冰山一角很可怕的是現在是集團式的收購他結合投資者\n\n12:17.434 --> 12:38.662\n開發者前客政治人物他們到處到原鄉收購土地您可以看一下這個圖全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告大啦啦的廣告以林地文獻他要用現金收購也把他的手機號碼都放上去還告訴大家不要私功德無量\n\n12:39.702 --> 12:59.757\n到處全國搜刮土地這些是什麼一胎二胎現金吸引民間當部資產管理公司然後呢設定抵押之後再交易給人頭這樣的情形非常的嚴重我要給我們院長看一個數據學者也在呼籲學者已經告訴我們他推估\n\n13:00.638 --> 13:27.630\n我們目前已經流失的私有元寶地是45.5%也就是說超過一半已經不是原住民在實際只用就像我剛剛講的什麼叫建民登記我們兩個人講好地登記在我這邊實際的使用權在你那邊那其中多少是中資然後呢是拿來做什麼用完全不得而知所以我在這邊我們想要不要防堵有上一屆\n\n13:28.610 --> 13:55.705\n行政院有把原保條例送進來有送進來原民會也做了很多的討論但是呢最終宣告沒有獲得支持他有沒有防堵在第17條草案有寫私有原保等設定工作權、點權或抵押權給非原住民只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄戶住社來做設定抵押\n\n13:56.745 --> 14:24.702\n這至少是一個防堵的破口這個條例非常的重要所以呢我在這個地方要特別先謝謝院長就是我在110年透過總質詢幾度呢做了幾次禁法補償的一個質詢那一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長他有交代原民會來研議那也才113年雖然在風風雨雨之中呢我也看到\n\n14:25.242 --> 14:46.605\n我們行政院對我們原保地的一個重視因為我們零務局零保署那邊的蔣府造林已經提高到六年六十萬如果我們沒有在我們的進法補償做對應我相信我們會有很大的一個山林災難那但是我在這邊就是非常的感謝我希望院長能夠責成\n\n14:47.606 --> 15:08.557\n我們的相關部會要求內政部原民會陸委會協同相關部會盤查中資以人頭戶購買原保地的情形第二個我訴求希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例去修訂中資人頭買賣的一個罰則那第三個就是希望院長行政院支持原保條例\n\n15:09.437 --> 15:21.013\n本會期繼續的來送立法院來審查台灣的每一塊土地都很重要我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力是不是請院長支持謝謝委員我們一定支持\n\n15:22.479 --> 15:42.255\n總之進來購買任何的土地除非它經過嚴格法定的程序原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會還有內政部共同來清查那關於原住民族保留地權利回復及管理利用條例既然以前送進來過那請主委再詳細的規劃如果能夠增加國安安全\n\n15:52.769 --> 15:53.634\n謝謝吳立華委員的資訊,謝謝左院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":16.721,"end":20.524,"text":"謝謝院長主席有請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":31.101,"end":57.122,"text":"吳委好院長好上個月我們賴總統他有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱說中國是境外敵對勢力因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力的來因應這個做法那我在這裡想要先講一下我們在六七十年代"},{"start":58.362,"end":75.767,"text":"六七十年前 那個時候我們都會念保密防諜 人人有責檢舉匪諜 保家衛國小心 匪諜就在你身邊大家都耳熟能詳 朗朗上口但是我們發現 匪諜一直都在"},{"start":76.827,"end":97.063,"text":"特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重不僅僅滲透到政府機關也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊所以在這邊我也很擔心因為我們在立法院我們常常看到有很多的委員他會拿國台辦的稿子來質詢然後從來不檢討中國"},{"start":101.286,"end":122.253,"text":"反而是幫著中國去檢討美國日本那我認為這個就是癌細胞要拔除要不然會動搖國本所以我在這邊特別要來關心一下就是關於土地的問題因為對我們原住民來講土地就是我們的山林我們的家我們的生命那我在這邊要先提"},{"start":122.993,"end":144.405,"text":"其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至"},{"start":145.265,"end":167.95,"text":"美國總統拜登他在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令因為有一個中國公民他買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地迫使美國總統必須用行政命令來要求他售出為什麼因為無法可貫那我在想如果說台灣"},{"start":169.298,"end":183.516,"text":"的機敏設施沒有這些周邊土地被中資滲透我覺得也很難讓人相信所以在這邊關於中資買地的問題其實常常也有人討論以財訊雜誌來講他在2014年的時候曾經說過"},{"start":188.081,"end":206.573,"text":"中國到處全世界買土地買企業買個資買人心無所不買可是他在去年出了一個經典重現他說十年了問題依然如此那我自己呢我們看到在花蓮因為那邊有很多原住民的土地"},{"start":207.313,"end":222.547,"text":"像是理想大地的案外案就引發說是不是傅坤祺他引中資買地甚至在去年嘉山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地又或者說像我們的元寶地"},{"start":223.649,"end":244.714,"text":"富坤奇他讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園 縣政府想要在那個地方做開發那我們到底有沒有防範的機制我們來看我們的兩岸人民關係條例有在第73條第一項有說就是這些大陸地區的人民法人團體如果他們要做投資是需要主管機關經濟部的許可"},{"start":246.494,"end":263.727,"text":"那麼如果要買地呢有在第69條第一項他是要跟主管機關內政部要取得許可所以我現在先請教我們陸委會主委請問中國人是用人頭在台違法投資該不該罰報告委員"},{"start":267.642,"end":292.891,"text":"我們以投資而言 如果是用人頭投資的話依我們現行的這些罰則 它跟當事人一樣人頭也是要負刑責 還有罰還是一樣的好 謝謝所以這是在2019年增訂的第93條之一第一項 第一款 第二款 對不對要罰投資者 也要罰人頭那我再請教一下主委"},{"start":293.351,"end":322.02,"text":"那中國人士如果用人頭在談違法買地,該不該罰?那長長,跟委員報告其實我們對於陸資來,或是路人、自然人來買我們的這些房地產、土地基本上我們的兩岸條例基本上是許可制的是嚴格許可所以沒有罰嘛,所以沒有罰好,那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長"},{"start":324.653,"end":325.594,"text":"請內政部備選請教內政部長如果中資用人頭購買土地算不算借民登記算"},{"start":339.522,"end":365.587,"text":"那我們一般都是參考什麼呢最高法院在99年的一個民事判決也是目前法律定義的一個通說那簡單來講就是說我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上但是我願意讓你來管理這個叫做借名登記那如果按照剛剛的一個民事判決的定義那請教一下內政部長中資如果用人頭買地算不算借名登記"},{"start":366.707,"end":381.848,"text":"算好那請問有效還是無效無效因為一個是中國人一個是台灣人所以他中國人的話他要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例的相關規定來辦理好那部長所以"},{"start":382.428,"end":404.7,"text":"這是你的見解那我們來看一下民事判決的見解也是這麼說只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定它是有效的喔但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例它到底有沒有禁止它這個地方它說一定要獲得許可才能夠取得土地所以問題就來了"},{"start":406.081,"end":422.873,"text":"我們看這個表格如果他不是禁止規定那就是表示屆民登記有效也就是說中國人可以不經許可就可以人頭夠地但是這個條文到底有什麼意義因為大家就去找人頭就好啦"},{"start":423.493,"end":440.871,"text":"好 如果他是禁止規定那就是代表屆民登記是無效的但是剛才的兩岸人民關係條例的第69條我們有看到只有民事上無效他沒有行政法 沒有刑罰所以無論有效沒有效"},{"start":441.872,"end":469.825,"text":"我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞當然我相信我們大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地所以呢我在這邊的第一個訴求就是說既然中國人用人頭投資要罰那麼買地也應該要比照有罰則不能只是無效那這個部分院長您覺得如何"},{"start":472.796,"end":489.953,"text":"本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以等於它就是一個禁止的行為除非它有非常大的特例因為它相關的規定裡面它沒有行政處罰或是刑罰這部分我們應該檢討但是如果有遇到這樣的案子至少先確定它"},{"start":491.014,"end":518.181,"text":"致死就無效的一個購地行為是的那這個貿民頂替的這個貿民被貿營這個人頭他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利好 謝謝院長喔願意就這個部分來討論修法那接下來我當然啊我原住民我更關心原保地的部分那到底中國人中資有沒有買原保地我特別跟內政部來索資那這個地方呢經過審查人沒有問題"},{"start":520.061,"end":533.859,"text":"地也不是基民地區呢經過許可的共計有548件列管147件繼續列管401件好不管我現在問說那麼這些到底有沒有在原保地"},{"start":535.037,"end":560.418,"text":"回答我說均非屬原住民保留地我當然也知道啊為什麼因為我們根本無從得知雖然我們知道一定有但是我們無從得知那既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查那我想要來問一下袁明慧 請袁明慧時間暫停 我也跟你介意好了我們的議員就是三位"},{"start":561.138,"end":564.12,"text":"有沒有中國人士用人頭在台灣買元寶地的清查資料?"},{"start":583.581,"end":612.68,"text":"院長我只是要讓您清楚的知道在防堵中資擺地特別是原住民保留地是一個很大的問題目前沒有資料無從查起也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題所以我在這邊特別就是提醒像我剛剛提到的在我們這個嘉山基地的附近就是在去年兩大集團七間公司他對準嘉山基地中資"},{"start":613.821,"end":636.27,"text":"那為什麼我說這個地方重不重要我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演他常常去挑戰這個界線我們的嘉山基地那我們來看一下這個地圖嘉山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分然後七廳潭是靠海邊的部分你看它附近全部都是原住民保留地周邊有很多的原住民保留地"},{"start":636.71,"end":663.659,"text":"那我特別去國防部所知因為加3滴劑只是其中一例啊結果我所知之後原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處總計5600多公頃所以這個部分我們就很驚訝像前一陣子兩個月前媒體有揭露天啊原住民保留地的900萬購得的土地竟然可以設定2億的一個貸款"},{"start":666.46,"end":690.896,"text":"所以這個部分大家都說怎麼做到的還好媒體有揭露他說這個兩億不是設定給銀行是設定給開發公司那這個開發公司的背景一查有東莞的台商副會長有中國台氣聯的會長也有我們政治人物過去現長的子弟兵等等"},{"start":691.756,"end":706.445,"text":"如果沒有新聞爆料我們一般社會很難知道但是它不是個案我跟園民會的所知我就鎖幾個給院長聽聽看在五封鄉公告限制六萬可以擔保三千萬"},{"start":707.505,"end":711.906,"text":"獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3688萬復興區75萬可以擔保3000萬海端鄉160萬可以擔保5000萬信義鄉82萬可以擔保1000萬仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3000萬尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8000萬這些都只是冰山一角很可怕的是現在是集團式的收購他結合投資者"},{"start":737.434,"end":758.662,"text":"開發者 前客 政治人物他們到處到原鄉收購土地您可以看一下這個圖全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告大啦啦的廣告以林地 文獻他要用現金收購也把他的手機號碼都放上去還告訴大家不要私功德無量"},{"start":759.702,"end":779.757,"text":"到處全國搜刮土地這些是什麼一胎二胎現金吸引民間當部資產管理公司然後呢設定抵押之後再交易給人頭這樣的情形非常的嚴重我要給我們院長看一個數據學者也在呼籲學者已經告訴我們他推估"},{"start":780.638,"end":807.63,"text":"我們目前已經流失的私有元寶地是45.5%也就是說超過一半已經不是原住民在實際只用就像我剛剛講的什麼叫建民登記我們兩個人講好 地登記在我這邊實際的使用權在你那邊那其中多少是中資然後呢 是拿來做什麼用完全不得而知所以我在這邊我們想要不要防堵 有上一屆"},{"start":808.61,"end":835.705,"text":"行政院有把原保條例送進來有送進來原民會也做了很多的討論但是呢 最終宣告沒有獲得支持他有沒有防堵在第17條草案有寫私有原保等設定工作權、點權或抵押權給非原住民只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄戶住社來做設定抵押"},{"start":836.745,"end":864.702,"text":"這至少是一個防堵的破口這個條例非常的重要所以呢我在這個地方要特別先謝謝院長就是我在110年透過總質詢幾度呢做了幾次禁法補償的一個質詢那一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長他有交代原民會來研議那也才113年雖然在風風雨雨之中呢我也看到"},{"start":865.242,"end":886.605,"text":"我們行政院對我們原保地的一個重視因為我們零務局零保署那邊的蔣府造林已經提高到六年六十萬如果我們沒有在我們的進法補償做對應我相信我們會有很大的一個山林災難那但是我在這邊就是非常的感謝我希望院長能夠責成"},{"start":887.606,"end":908.557,"text":"我們的相關部會要求內政部 原民會 陸委會 協同相關部會盤查中資 以人頭戶購買原保地的情形第二個我訴求希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例去修訂中資人頭買賣的一個罰則那第三個就是希望院長行政院支持原保條例"},{"start":909.437,"end":921.013,"text":"本會期繼續的來送立法院來審查台灣的每一塊土地都很重要我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力是不是請院長支持謝謝委員 我們一定支持"},{"start":922.479,"end":942.255,"text":"總之進來購買任何的土地除非它經過嚴格法定的程序原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會還有內政部共同來清查那關於原住民族保留地權利回復及管理利用條例既然以前送進來過那請主委再詳細的規劃如果能夠增加國安安全"},{"start":952.769,"end":953.634,"text":"謝謝吳立華委員的資訊,謝謝左院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時21分）謝謝院長、主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好。上個月賴總統有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱，說中國是境外敵對勢力，因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力因應這個作法。我在這裡想要先講一下，在六、七十年前，那個時候我們都會唸「保密防諜，人人有責」、「檢舉匪諜，保家衛國」、「小心，匪諜就在你身邊」，大家都耳熟能詳、朗朗上口。但是我們發現匪諜一直都在，特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重，不僅僅滲透到政府機關，也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊，所以在這邊我也很擔心，因為我們在立法院常常看到有很多的委員會拿國臺辦的稿子來質詢，然後從來不檢討中國，反而是幫著中國去檢討美國、日本，我認為這個就是癌細胞，要拔除，要不然會動搖國本。","所以我在這邊要特別關心關於土地的問題，因為對我們原住民來講，土地就是我們的山林、我們的家、我們的生命，我在這邊要先提，其實這些年來，在全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等，都會聽到中資買地的問題，例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島；日本北海道的軍事雷達站附近，大量地被中資買土地。甚至美國總統拜登在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令，因為有一個中國公民買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地，迫使美國總統必須用行政命令要求他售出，為什麼？因為無法可管。我在想如果說臺灣這些機敏設施的周邊土地沒有被中資滲透，我覺得也很難讓人相信。","關於中資買地的問題，其實常常也有人討論，以財訊雜誌來講，它在2014年的時候曾經說過中國到處在全世界買土地、買企業、買個資、買人心，無所不買，可是它在去年出了一本經典重現，它說10年了，問題依然如此。那我自己呢？我們看到在花蓮，因為那邊有很多原住民的土地，像是理想大地的案外案，就被質疑是不是傅崐萁引中資買地？甚至在去年佳山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地，又或者像我們的原保地，傅崐萁讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園的，縣政府想要在那個地方做開發，我們到底有沒有防範的機制？","我們來看兩岸人民關係條例，在第七十三條第一項有說這些大陸地區的人民、法人、團體，如果他們要做投資，是需要主管機關經濟部的許可；如果要買地呢？有，在第六十九條第一項規定要跟主管機關內政部取得許可。我現在先請教陸委會主委，請問中國人士用人頭在臺違法投資，該不該罰？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，以投資而言，如果是用人頭投資的話，依現行的這些罰則，他跟當事人一樣，人頭也是要負刑責及罰鍰，這是一樣的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。所以這是在2019年增訂的第九十三條之一第一項第一款及第二款，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要罰投資者，也要罰人頭。我再請教一下主委，中國人士如果用人頭在臺違法買地，該不該罰？"],["邱主任委員垂正：那當然。跟委員報告，對於陸資或是陸人、自然人來買我們的房地產及土地，兩岸條例基本上是許可制，是嚴格許可，都要由……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以沒有罰嘛？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長。"],["主席：麻煩請內政部備詢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教內政部長，如果中資用人頭購買土地，算不算借名登記？"],["劉部長世芳：算。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我們一般都是參考什麼呢？最高法院在99年的一個民事判決，也是目前法律定義的通說，簡單來講，就是我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上，但是我願意讓你來管理，這個叫作「借名登記」。如果按照剛剛的民事判決的定義，請教一下內政部長，中資如果用人頭買地，算不算借名登記？"],["劉部長世芳：算，但是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。請問是有效還是無效？"],["劉部長世芳：無效，因為一個是中國人，一個是臺灣人，所以他是中國人的話，就要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例相關的規定來辦理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，所以這個是你的見解，我們來看一下，民事判決的見解也是這麼說，只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定，它是有效的，但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例，到底它有沒有禁止？在這個地方規定一定要獲得許可，才能夠取得土地。所以問題就來了，我們看這個表格，如果它不是禁止規定，就是表示借名登記有效，也就是說，中國人可以不經許可，就可以人頭購地，但是這個條文到底有什麼意義，大家就去找人頭就好啦！如果它是禁止規定，就是代表借名登記是無效的，但是我們剛才有看到兩岸人民關係條例第六十九條，只有民事上無效，它沒有行政罰、沒有刑罰，所以無論有效、沒有效，我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞。當然我相信大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地。所以我在這邊的第一個訴求就是，既然中國人用人頭投資要罰，買地也應該要比照有罰則，不能只是無效，對於這個部分，院長，您覺得如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以，等於它就是一個禁止的行為，除非它有非常大的特例，因為在相關的規定裡面，對此沒有行政處罰或者刑罰，這部分我們應該檢討。但是如果有遇到這類的案子，至少先確定它是自始就無效的一個購地行為。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個冒名頂替的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這就是漏洞所在。"],["卓院長榮泰：被冒名的這個人頭，他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長，願意就這個部分來討論修法。","接下來，我是原住民，當然我更關心原保地的部分，到底中國人、中資有沒有買原保地？我特別跟內政部索資，這個地方經過審查，人沒有問題、地也不是機敏地區，經過許可的共計548件、列管147件、繼續列管401件，我問這些到底有沒有在原保地，他們回答我說「均非屬原住民保留地」。我當然也知道啊！為什麼？因為我們根本無從得知，雖然我們知道一定有，但是我們無從得知，既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查，那我想要來問一下原民會，請原民會。"],["主席：時間暫停，跟伍委員建議，我們的硬體就是3位，我先請陸委會主委下去，然後請原民會上來，你看這樣好嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：時間請繼續。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教主委，有沒有中國人士用人頭在臺灣買原保地的清查資料？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就目前來講，我們也在清查，還沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，我只是要讓您清楚地知道，在防堵中資買地上，特別是原住民保留地，是一個很大的問題，目前沒有資料，無從查起，也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題。所以我在這邊要特別提醒，像我剛剛提到的，在佳山基地的附近，去年有兩大集團、七間公司對準佳山基地，中資喔！為什麼我說這個地方重不重要？我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演時常常去挑戰這個界線，我們的佳山基地。我們來看一下這個地圖，佳山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分，然後七星潭是在靠海邊的部分，你看它的附近，全部都是原住民保留地，周邊有很多的原住民保留地。我特別向國防部索資，因為佳山基地只是其中一例啊！結果我索資之後，原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處，總計五千六百多公頃。","所以這個部分我們就很驚訝，像前一陣子、兩個月前媒體有揭露，天啊！900萬購得的原住民保留地，竟然可以設定2億的貸款，因此這個部分大家都說：什麼！怎麼做到的？還好媒體有揭露，他說這個2億不是設定給銀行，是設定給開發公司，而這個開發公司的背景一查，有東莞的台商副會長、有中國台企聯會長，也有我們的政治人物，過去縣長的子弟兵等等。如果沒有新聞爆料，我們一般社會很難知道，但是它不是個案，我跟原民會的索資，我就講幾個給院長聽聽看，在五峰鄉公告現值6萬可以擔保3,000萬；獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億；秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3,688萬；復興區75萬可以擔保3,000萬；海端鄉160萬可以擔保5,000萬；信義鄉82萬可以擔保1,000萬；仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3,000萬；尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8,000萬。這些都只是冰山一角，很可怕的是，現在是集團式的收購，它結合投資者、開發者、掮客、政治人物，他們到處到原鄉收購土地，您可以看一下這個圖，全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告，大剌剌的廣告，以林地為限，他要用現金收購，也把他的手機號碼都放上去，還告訴大家不要撕、功德無量，全國到處搜刮土地。這一些是什麼？一胎、二胎，民間當鋪、資產管理公司以現金吸引，然後設定抵押之後再交易給人頭，這樣的情形非常嚴重。","我要給院長看一個數據，學者也在呼籲，學者已經告訴我們，他推估目前已經流失的私有原保地是45.5%，也就是說，超過一半已經不是原住民在實際使用，就像我剛剛講的，什麼叫借名登記？我們兩個人講好，地登記在我這邊，實際的使用權在你那邊，其中多少是中資、是拿來做什麼用，完全不得而知，所以我在這邊要說，要不要防堵？有，上一屆行政院有把原保條例送進來原民會，也做了很多的討論，但是最終宣告沒有獲得支持，它有沒有防堵？在草案第十七條有寫私有原保地不得設定耕作權、典權或抵押權給非原住民，只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄互助社做設定抵押，這至少是一個防堵破口的機制，這個條例非常的重要。","所以我在這個地方要先特別謝謝院長，我在110年透過總質詢，做了幾次禁伐補償的質詢，一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長交代原民會來研議，113年雖然在風風雨雨之中，我也看到行政院對我們原保地的重視，因為林保署那邊的獎輔造林已經提高到6年60萬，如果我們沒有在禁伐補償做對應，我相信我們會有很大的山林災難，但是我在這邊非常的感謝。","我希望院長能夠責成內政部、原民會、陸委會偕同相關部會，盤查中資以人頭戶購買原保地的情形。第二個，我的訴求是希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例，去修訂中資人頭買賣的罰則。第三個，希望院長、行政院支持原保條例，本會期繼續送立法院審查。臺灣的每一塊土地都很重要，我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力，是不是請院長支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們一定支持，中資進來購買任何的土地，除非它經過嚴格法定的程序，原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會，還有內政部共同來清查。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：關於原住民保留地權利回復及管理利用條例，既然以前送進來過，請主委再詳細地規劃，在增加國家安全的議題上，我們在最快的時間內一起來合作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12號劉書彬委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143701_00012"}}}