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0.93}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 85.817, \"end\": 85.957, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 85.957, \"end\": 86.278, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 86.278, \"end\": 86.458, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 86.458, \"end\": 86.898, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 86.898, \"end\": 87.439, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 87.439, \"end\": 87.699, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 87.699, \"end\": 87.96, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 87.96, \"end\": 88.1, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 88.1, \"end\": 88.36, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 88.36, \"end\": 89.621, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 89.621, \"end\": 89.882, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 89.882, \"end\": 90.202, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 90.202, \"end\": 90.342, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 90.342, \"end\": 90.422, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 90.422, \"end\": 90.442, \"score\": 0.014}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 90.442, \"end\": 90.462, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"問\"}]}, {\"start\": 92.128, \"end\": 120.418, \"text\": \"左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上 國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"左\", \"start\": 92.128, \"end\": 92.228, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 92.228, \"end\": 92.548, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 92.548, \"end\": 92.908, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 92.908, \"end\": 93.869, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 93.869, \"end\": 94.029, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 94.029, \"end\": 95.069, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 95.069, \"end\": 95.709, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 95.709, \"end\": 95.869, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 95.869, \"end\": 96.109, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 96.109, \"end\": 96.189, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 96.189, \"end\": 96.269, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 96.269, \"end\": 96.79, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 96.79, \"end\": 97.07, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 97.07, \"end\": 98.19, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 98.19, \"end\": 98.71, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 98.71, \"end\": 99.251, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 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\"講\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 109.594, \"end\": 109.734, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 109.734, \"end\": 110.114, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 110.114, \"end\": 111.595, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 111.595, \"end\": 111.735, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 111.735, \"end\": 112.155, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 112.155, \"end\": 114.056, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 114.056, \"end\": 114.316, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 114.316, \"end\": 115.076, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 115.076, \"end\": 115.316, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 115.316, \"end\": 115.876, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 115.876, \"end\": 116.116, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 926.354, \"end\": 926.554, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 926.554, \"end\": 927.114, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 927.114, \"end\": 928.055, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 928.055, \"end\": 928.335, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 928.335, \"end\": 928.515, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 928.515, \"end\": 928.695, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 928.695, \"end\": 929.235, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 929.235, \"end\": 929.375, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 929.375, \"end\": 930.516, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 930.516, \"end\": 930.716, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 930.716, \"end\": 930.916, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 930.916, 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 948.967, \"end\": 949.127, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 949.127, \"end\": 949.147, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:18,049 --> 00:00:21,816\n好謝謝主席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:32,834 --> 00:00:50,309\n委員好再次恭喜委員長好您是在1月113年的時候5月20號就宣誓就職的那你那時候在宣誓就職的時候你有談到於事已至成恪遵國家的法令那就盡忠職守如為事業願受最嚴厲的處罰\n\n3\n00:00:52,370 --> 00:01:07,258\n我們繼續往下看今天我的談論的主題是涉及到說兩岸的定位在我國的憲法當中的關係在徵求條文當中認定的在前言當中是目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況\n\n4\n00:01:08,539 --> 00:01:30,462\n那因此在十一條的時候呢在自由地區與大陸地區之間的這個人民關係呢是由兩岸人民關係條例來去約定因此有這樣子的台灣地區與大陸地區的兩岸人民關係的這個內容包括的是同樣在把第一條的這部分第二條就特地講定了在台灣地區跟大陸地區那我現在就是要問\n\n5\n00:01:32,128 --> 00:02:00,418\n左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的\n\n6\n00:02:00,947 --> 00:02:20,193\n好那是這個名字那是哪一個國呢我們是中華民國對所以是中華民國的下面的大陸地區跟中國台灣地區嘛對是這樣的好的這樣的情況之下您這樣講是沒有錯啦因為我們分對內跟對外但是我們面對的是共同的有一個鄰國在對面他事實上是有一點\n\n7\n00:02:20,993 --> 00:02:46,080\n有點特殊的這樣子對待我們的情況很特殊不只有一點很特殊非常特殊沒錯沒錯這也是的確是特殊的關係好那現在我們看看您是在4月15號的時候我們再往下一頁去看的時候可以看到的是您呢在4月15號的時候提到的是以針對的是劉思邦部長的這個的談論然後您提到是說正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係這是確定的嗎\n\n8\n00:02:48,254 --> 00:03:14,405\n中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這是事實現狀事實是這樣的情況之下但是因為我們面對的是一個對岸他對我們有相關的一個需求他有一個要求那我們現在往下看齁在這個情況之下其實你剛才也說到你確確答對了齁就中華民國的一國兩區是這樣的一國兩區不過呢在這邊要跟大家講因為你剛才提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國可是在對岸聽起來的話可能就會出現到是兩國論的這個情形\n\n9\n00:03:16,546 --> 00:03:36,609\n我現在是說我們要知恥知彼百戰百勝因此我就要跟大家講跟卓院長你說如果您的講話因為你有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國這個有兩國論的疑慮的情況之下他就會認為說你是有準備邁向法理台獨我們現在繼續往下看\n\n10\n00:03:37,330 --> 00:03:59,103\n如果真的要面對到國際間的在對內你是一個法治國家的時候最重要的是我認為是說你可能要做修憲或者說申請違憲審查這部分的時候你可能還在法治上面是合理的這邊地方的時候我想詢問的是你有考慮過這個情況嗎提出修憲或者是說要做違憲的審查嗎\n\n11\n00:04:01,737 --> 00:04:27,439\n修憲的工程之浩大以及現在國會的結構應該很難甚至修憲之後還要修憲公投但是國會現在的工程就應該不簡單所以我是認為說我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例的時候甚至憲法的時候對內我們用地區這個法律的用語來談論沒有什麼大問題但是在對外我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區\n\n12\n00:04:28,206 --> 00:04:51,743\n我們是一個國家一個主權獨立的國家這個國家叫做中華民國你要叫它中華民國台灣我們也歡迎都一樣的響亮非常好謝謝你確認這部分那我只是跟你講如果真的法治要確認這個效果的話其實提出修憲或者是做釋憲維憲審查都是可行之照好那我們現在進入到下一個議題這部分是更嚴重的部分在3月13號的時候\n\n13\n00:04:53,943 --> 00:05:19,670\n因為賴總統在國安會會議後有這個談話就把對岸這個認定說是依照反滲透法認定他是一個定外敵對勢力對不對之後您在後來賴總統他也在同樣的時間之後他也提出了賴17條就是說因應到兩岸關係這部分敵對勢力滲透中共的這個滲透這部分他有這樣17條那我們繼續往下看的時候您在\n\n14\n00:05:20,410 --> 00:05:44,042\n隔一天喔3月14號的時候您呢也呼應了愛總統說對岸是境外敵對勢力這樣的說法沒有錯好這就是事實那我們現在想問一個問題是請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎差異很大那請說行政院會議行政院的院會啦院會我們每週都會固定舉行那國安會議\n\n15\n00:05:45,293 --> 00:06:01,498\n舉行的時間可能性次數都不是這樣的平凡但是很少正式舉行現在我們舉行的兩次也叫做國安高層會議好但是你剛才還忘了說一個重要的國安會議呢它事實上它事實上是總統的諮詢機構\n\n16\n00:06:04,708 --> 00:06:32,947\n總統的諮詢機構所以那行政院長您作為行政院行政院作為國家最高的行政機關最高的決策單位就是行政院會議嘛行政院院會嘛對吧但是您在同一天的這個情況之下齁請問一下你們當因為你3月14號你說了你呼應了總統說是境外敵對勢力是中國那這種情況之下請問你3月13號這個地方這一天你有提出來\n\n17\n00:06:34,684 --> 00:06:36,925\n行政院院會也針對境外事宜這邊有進行討論嗎3月13號對禮拜四在行政院院會我們沒有這個議題啊你們沒有這個議題那你為什麼3月14號的時候您可以就提出來就是說呼應大統統說法這個是一個\n\n18\n00:06:53,410 --> 00:06:55,091\n因為在國安高層會議當中總統做了指示指示裡面他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力\n\n19\n00:07:19,830 --> 00:07:43,110\n但是他是諮詢會議的性質總統已經親口講出來了17項的措施沒有錯但是你知道你是行政院長你是最高行政機關你還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議不是這樣子的沒有沒有沒有我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面那您的部分就是所以才會聽到說引起後面所有的相關的問題那總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎\n\n20\n00:07:45,207 --> 00:08:00,990\n我等一下說明,你事實上還包括立法院,甚至還有重要的政策決策,根據憲法雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎?沒有,那是因為你沒有呼應,那是總統講的話沒問題,可是您呼應,您是行政院院長您是最高行政機關,決策機關是在行政院會議,這確定吧?報告委員,總統元旦講話,雙十講話,我們都有回應,都有呼應\n\n21\n00:08:10,145 --> 00:08:35,173\n但是這是重大決策如果只是一般宣示那不一樣因為你把的在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前的這個部分兩岸關係的部分你把它定做把中共認為是一個敵對勢力這個是我們再去往下看特別是在反滲透法這邊十二條裡面我們看到這個內容它事實上只有被規定被滲透的對象裡面的刑事跟行政處罰並沒有針對我們看下一頁它並沒有針對\n\n22\n00:08:40,065 --> 00:09:04,573\n總統他如何去認定他是一個另外敵對勢力這一部分的決策程序做一個規範那更重要的是呢這個是一個重大政策的改變所以他必須經過行政院會議甚至經過憲法他必須尊重立法院的重要決策的參與權那這邊事實上到立法院來做報告了那現在還要決議的這邊要根據到憲法第三條或者行政院職權行使法的使用\n\n23\n00:09:05,573 --> 00:09:22,786\n這個部分通通都要重要事項有變更要做立法院的一個要經過立法院的決議這種情況好所以呢導致賴總統他本身做宣告對岸委員會進行決議的時候他的這個立法過程缺乏合法正當性好這個地方總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後\n\n24\n00:09:26,389 --> 00:09:47,731\n總和了相關很多部會首長參加大家在那個會中做成的決議就是由總統對外來宣示的包括17項但是您呼籲但是我現在重點說我現在是針對您您是我國最高的行政首長但是行政院會議的決策的功能你忘記了你忽略了甚至沒有在\n\n25\n00:09:48,792 --> 00:10:08,532\n立法院上都經過我們重要的決策,四字520號就針對這不是跟哪一個國家締約、構合總統他在申請上次的時候,核四的停建就是造成一個四字解釋,四字520號就是要後來經過立法院的你行政院長到立法院做報告之後,立法院決議之後,後來核四要再重建了\n\n26\n00:10:09,153 --> 00:10:21,030\n所以這個地方要重啟了這部分你要知道四次解釋已經更訂了重要角色立法院要參與好那這邊你如果不確定你可以再看四次的520號解釋好那另外我更重要的是要強調的是\n\n27\n00:10:23,993 --> 00:10:42,771\n少數的治理因為奈清德總統是百分之四十所產生的一個總統另外的部分現在行政院就帶著大家境外敵對勢力就帶著大家去走如果經過剛才立法院程序可能就沒問題可是現在只有百分之四十的民意卻是帶著大家因為這是民進黨的黨議\n\n28\n00:10:44,813 --> 00:11:03,464\n可是我們2300萬人的命運是由台灣人自己來決定的這個情況之下並不是說如果你沒有經過立法院的這樣一個決定實際上是缺乏這個程序的實際上是很危險的更重要的是我們看到的是現在在選研中心政大選研中心所說出的百分之超過60的人是\n\n29\n00:11:04,854 --> 00:11:30,588\n維持的是維持現狀或是維持現狀之後再看以後怎麼發展這是公告的事實你可以看到這樣的迷你的知識那您知道嗎在這種情況之下會造成的是一個你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力什麼效果呢就是會慢慢覺得說他根據我們現在看看下一頁這個情況之下我們為了知識之彼百戰百勝可以看到在下一頁你可以看到的是\n\n30\n00:11:31,388 --> 00:11:59,467\n中共的國家反分裂法您作為一個國家的行政的首長你要知道對方會有什麼反應他是說如果你從台灣從中國把它分裂出去的話呢會導致或是會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事故呢導致和平可能的這個同一性都完全消失的時候那你看和平同一性因為你把它視為進對岸當作一個敵對勢力的時候就會考試它用非和平的方式去考試施政我覺得你不應該用\n\n31\n00:12:00,908 --> 00:12:21,031\n中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動事實上總統也是依據我們立法院通過的反滲透法的定義中國大陸所作所為對台的極限施壓步步精兵哪一項不是境外敵對勢力更何況這是符合這個反滲透法的定義的\n\n32\n00:12:21,271 --> 00:12:22,152\n怎麼可能什麼黨\n\n33\n00:12:37,532 --> 00:12:40,594\n全世界都知道中共對台的嚴重威脅那你就透過法律程序讓它落實\n\n34\n00:12:59,293 --> 00:13:09,348\n這個是客觀事實舉世公認的對台威脅當然法律是一回事但是這個嚴重的威脅難道委員沒有感受到嗎\n\n35\n00:13:10,543 --> 00:13:35,868\n有威脅我等一下就要問到陸委會主委有威脅可是剛剛人家說原因是什麼如果你看到果然內密就是要看到前面的因的時候那是沒辦法去解決真正的問題的陸委會現在跟行政院的問題現在就是在這個情況我現在就跟大家講因為前面有敵對的勢力本來我們之前就有就有的他的圍繞這個環台都沒有問題可是更的清楚了他現在變成說做了演習\n\n36\n00:13:37,628 --> 00:13:47,836\n我的意思是說我們真的要好好解決尤其是邱主委你本身是學者出身你本身陸委會我現在甚至跟大家講的是在這邊陸委會甚至我就現在問你了啦不是等一下院長我要跟你講你這樣子把對岸視為一個敵對勢力的時候你的情況是你要走向的是緊張還有敵意耶\n\n37\n00:13:59,565 --> 00:14:09,491\n我說過和平有兩種一種是我們夠強一種是我們投降我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強強到讓普我之國家\n\n38\n00:14:10,498 --> 00:14:16,003\n境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們如果委員如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親那絕對不是台灣現狀跟主流\n\n39\n00:14:32,110 --> 00:14:44,820\n沒有這樣講剛才主流是什麼維持現狀維持現狀你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流我剛才已經說了民調呈現是60%是這樣子的您不要誤導我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的不是嗎他是另外的那是我們他是他的問題我們現在主要我們現在的問題就好了我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊\n\n40\n00:14:57,227 --> 00:15:11,445\n我們就是中華民國主權獨立的國家現在這邊我們回到剛才最重要的我想要問的是邱主委您作為陸委會的主委你的主要工作是什麼任務應該是怎麼樣\n\n41\n00:15:12,406 --> 00:15:35,379\n我想我們仍然持續推動這個對等尊嚴符合規範健康有序的交流哪怕是我們推出了17項因應國安的這些策略我們也是努力在維護台海我們是積極努力維護台海的現狀現在要改變台海現狀的是中共當局\n\n42\n00:15:48,727 --> 00:15:49,147\n好謝謝時間到了\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n18049\t21816\t好 謝謝主席 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n32834\t50309\t委員好再次恭喜 委員長好您是在1月113年的時候5月20號就宣誓就職的那你那時候在宣誓就職的時候你有談到於事已至成 恪遵國家的法令那就盡忠職守 如為事業願受最嚴厲的處罰\n52370\t67258\t我們繼續往下看今天我的談論的主題是涉及到說兩岸的定位在我國的憲法當中的關係在徵求條文當中認定的在前言當中是目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況\n68539\t90462\t那因此在十一條的時候呢在自由地區與大陸地區之間的這個人民關係呢是由兩岸人民關係條例來去約定因此有這樣子的台灣地區與大陸地區的兩岸人民關係的這個內容包括的是同樣在把第一條的這部分第二條就特地講定了在台灣地區跟大陸地區那我現在就是要問\n92128\t120418\t左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上 國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的\n120947\t140193\t好 那是這個名字 那是哪一個國呢我們是中華民國對 所以是中華民國的下面的大陸地區跟中國台灣地區嘛對 是這樣的 好的 這樣的情況之下您這樣講是沒有錯啦因為我們分對內跟對外但是我們面對的是共同的有一個鄰國在對面 他事實上是有一點\n140993\t166080\t有點特殊的這樣子對待我們的情況很特殊不只有一點很特殊非常特殊沒錯沒錯這也是的確是特殊的關係好那現在我們看看您是在4月15號的時候我們再往下一頁去看的時候可以看到的是您呢在4月15號的時候提到的是以針對的是劉思邦部長的這個的談論然後您提到是說正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係這是確定的嗎\n168254\t194405\t中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這是事實 現狀事實是 這樣的情況之下但是因為我們面對的是一個對岸他對我們有相關的一個需求他有一個要求那我們現在往下看齁在這個情況之下其實你剛才也說到你確確答對了齁就中華民國的一國兩區是這樣的一國兩區不過呢在這邊要跟大家講因為你剛才提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國可是在對岸聽起來的話可能就會出現到是兩國論的這個情形\n196546\t216609\t我現在是說我們要知恥知彼百戰百勝因此我就要跟大家講跟卓院長你說如果您的講話因為你有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國這個有兩國論的疑慮的情況之下他就會認為說你是有準備邁向法理台獨我們現在繼續往下看\n217330\t239103\t如果真的要面對到國際間的在對內你是一個法治國家的時候最重要的是我認為是說你可能要做修憲或者說申請違憲審查這部分的時候你可能還在法治上面是合理的這邊地方的時候我想詢問的是你有考慮過這個情況嗎提出修憲或者是說要做違憲的審查嗎\n241737\t267439\t修憲的工程之浩大以及現在國會的結構應該很難甚至修憲之後還要修憲公投但是國會現在的工程就應該不簡單所以我是認為說我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例的時候甚至憲法的時候對內我們用地區這個法律的用語來談論沒有什麼大問題但是在對外我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區\n268206\t291743\t我們是一個國家一個主權獨立的國家這個國家叫做中華民國你要叫它中華民國台灣我們也歡迎都一樣的響亮非常好 謝謝你確認這部分那我只是跟你講如果真的法治要確認這個效果的話其實提出修憲或者是做釋憲維憲審查都是可行之照好 那我們現在進入到下一個議題這部分是更嚴重的部分在3月13號的時候\n293943\t319670\t因為賴總統在國安會會議後有這個談話就把對岸這個認定說是依照反滲透法認定他是一個定外敵對勢力對不對之後您在後來賴總統他也在同樣的時間之後他也提出了賴17條就是說因應到兩岸關係這部分敵對勢力滲透中共的這個滲透這部分他有這樣17條那我們繼續往下看的時候您在\n320410\t344042\t隔一天喔 3月14號的時候您呢也呼應了愛總統說對岸是境外敵對勢力這樣的說法沒有錯 好 這就是事實那我們現在想問一個問題是請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎差異很大那請說行政院會議 行政院的院會啦院會我們每週都會固定舉行那國安會議\n345293\t361498\t舉行的時間可能性次數都不是這樣的平凡但是很少正式舉行現在我們舉行的兩次也叫做國安高層會議好 但是你剛才還忘了說一個重要的國安會議呢 它事實上它事實上是總統的諮詢機構\n364708\t392947\t總統的諮詢機構所以那行政院長 您作為行政院行政院作為國家最高的行政機關最高的決策單位就是行政院會議嘛行政院院會嘛 對吧但是您在同一天的這個情況之下齁請問一下 你們當 因為你3月14號你說了你呼應了總統說是境外敵對勢力是中國那這種情況之下 請問你3月13號這個地方這一天你有提出來\n394684\t396925\t行政院院會也針對境外事宜這邊有進行討論嗎3月13號對 禮拜四在行政院院會我們沒有這個議題啊你們沒有這個議題那你為什麼3月14號的時候您可以就提出來就是說呼應大統統說法這個是一個\n413410\t415091\t因為在國安高層會議當中總統做了指示指示裡面他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力\n439830\t463110\t但是他是諮詢會議的性質總統已經親口講出來了17項的措施沒有錯 但是你知道你是行政院長你是最高行政機關你還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議不是這樣子的沒有沒有沒有我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面那您的部分就是所以才會聽到說引起後面所有的相關的問題那總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎\n465207\t480990\t我等一下說明,你事實上還包括立法院,甚至還有重要的政策決策,根據憲法雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎?沒有,那是因為你沒有呼應,那是總統講的話沒問題,可是您呼應,您是行政院院長您是最高行政機關,決策機關是在行政院會議,這確定吧?報告委員,總統元旦講話,雙十講話,我們都有回應,都有呼應\n490145\t515173\t但是這是重大決策如果只是一般宣示那不一樣因為你把的在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前的這個部分兩岸關係的部分你把它定做把中共認為是一個敵對勢力這個是我們再去往下看特別是在反滲透法這邊十二條裡面我們看到這個內容它事實上只有被規定被滲透的對象裡面的刑事跟行政處罰並沒有針對我們看下一頁它並沒有針對\n520065\t544573\t總統他如何去認定他是一個另外敵對勢力這一部分的決策程序做一個規範那更重要的是呢這個是一個重大政策的改變所以他必須經過行政院會議甚至經過憲法他必須尊重立法院的重要決策的參與權那這邊事實上到立法院來做報告了那現在還要決議的這邊要根據到憲法第三條或者行政院職權行使法的使用\n545573\t562786\t這個部分 通通都要 重要事項有變更要做立法院的一個 要經過立法院的決議這種情況好 所以呢 導致賴總統他本身做 宣告對岸委員會進行決議的時候他的這個立法過程缺乏合法正當性好 這個地方總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後\n566389\t587731\t總和了相關很多部會首長參加大家在那個會中做成的決議就是由總統對外來宣示的包括17項但是您呼籲但是我現在重點說我現在是針對您您是我國最高的行政首長但是行政院會議的決策的功能你忘記了你忽略了甚至沒有在\n588792\t608532\t立法院上都經過我們重要的決策,四字520號就針對這不是跟哪一個國家締約、構合總統他在申請上次的時候,核四的停建就是造成一個四字解釋,四字520號就是要後來經過立法院的你行政院長到立法院做報告之後,立法院決議之後,後來核四要再重建了\n609153\t621030\t所以這個地方要重啟了這部分你要知道四次解釋已經更訂了重要角色立法院要參與好那這邊你如果不確定你可以再看四次的520號解釋好那另外我更重要的是要強調的是\n623993\t642771\t少數的治理因為奈清德總統是百分之四十所產生的一個總統另外的部分現在行政院就帶著大家境外敵對勢力就帶著大家去走如果經過剛才立法院程序可能就沒問題可是現在只有百分之四十的民意卻是帶著大家因為這是民進黨的黨議\n644813\t663464\t可是我們2300萬人的命運是由台灣人自己來決定的這個情況之下並不是說如果你沒有經過立法院的這樣一個決定實際上是缺乏這個程序的 實際上是很危險的更重要的是我們看到的是現在在選研中心 政大選研中心所說出的百分之超過60的人是\n664854\t690588\t維持的是維持現狀或是維持現狀之後再看以後怎麼發展這是公告的事實你可以看到這樣的迷你的知識那您知道嗎在這種情況之下會造成的是一個你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力什麼效果呢就是會慢慢覺得說他根據我們現在看看下一頁這個情況之下我們為了知識之彼百戰百勝可以看到在下一頁你可以看到的是\n691388\t719467\t中共的國家反分裂法 您作為一個國家的行政的首長你要知道對方會有什麼反應他是說如果你從台灣從中國把它分裂出去的話呢會導致 或是會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事故呢導致和平可能的這個同一性都完全消失的時候那你看和平同一性因為你把它視為進對岸 當作一個敵對勢力的時候就會考試它用非和平的方式去考試施政我覺得你不應該用\n720908\t741031\t中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動事實上總統也是依據我們立法院通過的反滲透法的定義中國大陸所作所為對台的極限施壓步步精兵哪一項不是境外敵對勢力更何況這是符合這個反滲透法的定義的\n741271\t742152\t怎麼可能 什麼黨\n757532\t760594\t全世界都知道中共對台的嚴重威脅那你就透過法律程序讓它落實\n779293\t789348\t這個是客觀事實舉世公認的對台威脅當然法律是一回事但是這個嚴重的威脅難道委員沒有感受到嗎\n790543\t815868\t有威脅 我等一下就要問到陸委會主委有威脅 可是剛剛人家說原因是什麼如果你看到果然內密就是要看到前面的因的時候那是沒辦法去解決真正的問題的陸委會現在跟行政院的問題現在就是在這個情況我現在就跟大家講因為前面有敵對的勢力本來我們之前就有就有的他的圍繞這個環台都沒有問題可是更的清楚了他現在變成說做了演習\n817628\t827836\t我的意思是說我們真的要好好解決尤其是邱主委你本身是學者出身你本身陸委會我現在甚至跟大家講的是在這邊陸委會甚至我就現在問你了啦不是等一下 院長我要跟你講你這樣子把對岸視為一個敵對勢力的時候你的情況是你要走向的是緊張還有敵意耶\n839565\t849491\t我說過 和平有兩種一種是我們夠強 一種是我們投降我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強強到讓普我之國家\n850498\t856003\t境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們如果委員如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親那絕對不是台灣現狀跟主流\n872110\t884820\t沒有這樣講 剛才主流是什麼 維持現狀維持現狀 你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流我剛才已經說了 民調呈現是60%是這樣子的您不要誤導我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的 不是嗎他是另外的 那是我們 他是他的問題我們現在主要 我們現在的問題就好了我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊\n897227\t911445\t我們就是中華民國主權獨立的國家現在這邊我們回到剛才最重要的 我想要問的是邱主委您作為陸委會的主委 你的主要工作是什麼 任務應該是怎麼樣\n912406\t935379\t我想我們仍然持續推動這個對等尊嚴符合規範健康有序的交流哪怕是我們推出了17項因應國安的這些策略我們也是努力在維護台海我們是積極努力維護台海的現狀現在要改變台海現狀的是中共當局\n948727\t949147\t好 謝謝時間到了\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n委員好再次恭喜 委員長好您是在1月113年的時候5月20號就宣誓就職的那你那時候在宣誓就職的時候你有談到於事已至成 恪遵國家的法令那就盡忠職守 如為事業願受最嚴厲的處罰\n我們繼續往下看今天我的談論的主題是涉及到說兩岸的定位在我國的憲法當中的關係在徵求條文當中認定的在前言當中是目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況\n那因此在十一條的時候呢在自由地區與大陸地區之間的這個人民關係呢是由兩岸人民關係條例來去約定因此有這樣子的台灣地區與大陸地區的兩岸人民關係的這個內容包括的是同樣在把第一條的這部分第二條就特地講定了在台灣地區跟大陸地區那我現在就是要問\n左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上 國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的\n好 那是這個名字 那是哪一個國呢我們是中華民國對 所以是中華民國的下面的大陸地區跟中國台灣地區嘛對 是這樣的 好的 這樣的情況之下您這樣講是沒有錯啦因為我們分對內跟對外但是我們面對的是共同的有一個鄰國在對面 他事實上是有一點\n有點特殊的這樣子對待我們的情況很特殊不只有一點很特殊非常特殊沒錯沒錯這也是的確是特殊的關係好那現在我們看看您是在4月15號的時候我們再往下一頁去看的時候可以看到的是您呢在4月15號的時候提到的是以針對的是劉思邦部長的這個的談論然後您提到是說正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係這是確定的嗎\n中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這是事實 現狀事實是 這樣的情況之下但是因為我們面對的是一個對岸他對我們有相關的一個需求他有一個要求那我們現在往下看齁在這個情況之下其實你剛才也說到你確確答對了齁就中華民國的一國兩區是這樣的一國兩區不過呢在這邊要跟大家講因為你剛才提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國可是在對岸聽起來的話可能就會出現到是兩國論的這個情形\n我現在是說我們要知恥知彼百戰百勝因此我就要跟大家講跟卓院長你說如果您的講話因為你有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國這個有兩國論的疑慮的情況之下他就會認為說你是有準備邁向法理台獨我們現在繼續往下看\n如果真的要面對到國際間的在對內你是一個法治國家的時候最重要的是我認為是說你可能要做修憲或者說申請違憲審查這部分的時候你可能還在法治上面是合理的這邊地方的時候我想詢問的是你有考慮過這個情況嗎提出修憲或者是說要做違憲的審查嗎\n修憲的工程之浩大以及現在國會的結構應該很難甚至修憲之後還要修憲公投但是國會現在的工程就應該不簡單所以我是認為說我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例的時候甚至憲法的時候對內我們用地區這個法律的用語來談論沒有什麼大問題但是在對外我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區\n我們是一個國家一個主權獨立的國家這個國家叫做中華民國你要叫它中華民國台灣我們也歡迎都一樣的響亮非常好 謝謝你確認這部分那我只是跟你講如果真的法治要確認這個效果的話其實提出修憲或者是做釋憲維憲審查都是可行之照好 那我們現在進入到下一個議題這部分是更嚴重的部分在3月13號的時候\n因為賴總統在國安會會議後有這個談話就把對岸這個認定說是依照反滲透法認定他是一個定外敵對勢力對不對之後您在後來賴總統他也在同樣的時間之後他也提出了賴17條就是說因應到兩岸關係這部分敵對勢力滲透中共的這個滲透這部分他有這樣17條那我們繼續往下看的時候您在\n隔一天喔 3月14號的時候您呢也呼應了愛總統說對岸是境外敵對勢力這樣的說法沒有錯 好 這就是事實那我們現在想問一個問題是請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎差異很大那請說行政院會議 行政院的院會啦院會我們每週都會固定舉行那國安會議\n舉行的時間可能性次數都不是這樣的平凡但是很少正式舉行現在我們舉行的兩次也叫做國安高層會議好 但是你剛才還忘了說一個重要的國安會議呢 它事實上它事實上是總統的諮詢機構\n總統的諮詢機構所以那行政院長 您作為行政院行政院作為國家最高的行政機關最高的決策單位就是行政院會議嘛行政院院會嘛 對吧但是您在同一天的這個情況之下齁請問一下 你們當 因為你3月14號你說了你呼應了總統說是境外敵對勢力是中國那這種情況之下 請問你3月13號這個地方這一天你有提出來\n行政院院會也針對境外事宜這邊有進行討論嗎3月13號對 禮拜四在行政院院會我們沒有這個議題啊你們沒有這個議題那你為什麼3月14號的時候您可以就提出來就是說呼應大統統說法這個是一個\n因為在國安高層會議當中總統做了指示指示裡面他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力\n但是他是諮詢會議的性質總統已經親口講出來了17項的措施沒有錯 但是你知道你是行政院長你是最高行政機關你還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議不是這樣子的沒有沒有沒有我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面那您的部分就是所以才會聽到說引起後面所有的相關的問題那總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎\n我等一下說明,你事實上還包括立法院,甚至還有重要的政策決策,根據憲法雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎?沒有,那是因為你沒有呼應,那是總統講的話沒問題,可是您呼應,您是行政院院長您是最高行政機關,決策機關是在行政院會議,這確定吧?報告委員,總統元旦講話,雙十講話,我們都有回應,都有呼應\n但是這是重大決策如果只是一般宣示那不一樣因為你把的在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前的這個部分兩岸關係的部分你把它定做把中共認為是一個敵對勢力這個是我們再去往下看特別是在反滲透法這邊十二條裡面我們看到這個內容它事實上只有被規定被滲透的對象裡面的刑事跟行政處罰並沒有針對我們看下一頁它並沒有針對\n總統他如何去認定他是一個另外敵對勢力這一部分的決策程序做一個規範那更重要的是呢這個是一個重大政策的改變所以他必須經過行政院會議甚至經過憲法他必須尊重立法院的重要決策的參與權那這邊事實上到立法院來做報告了那現在還要決議的這邊要根據到憲法第三條或者行政院職權行使法的使用\n這個部分 通通都要 重要事項有變更要做立法院的一個 要經過立法院的決議這種情況好 所以呢 導致賴總統他本身做 宣告對岸委員會進行決議的時候他的這個立法過程缺乏合法正當性好 這個地方總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後\n總和了相關很多部會首長參加大家在那個會中做成的決議就是由總統對外來宣示的包括17項但是您呼籲但是我現在重點說我現在是針對您您是我國最高的行政首長但是行政院會議的決策的功能你忘記了你忽略了甚至沒有在\n立法院上都經過我們重要的決策,四字520號就針對這不是跟哪一個國家締約、構合總統他在申請上次的時候,核四的停建就是造成一個四字解釋,四字520號就是要後來經過立法院的你行政院長到立法院做報告之後,立法院決議之後,後來核四要再重建了\n所以這個地方要重啟了這部分你要知道四次解釋已經更訂了重要角色立法院要參與好那這邊你如果不確定你可以再看四次的520號解釋好那另外我更重要的是要強調的是\n少數的治理因為奈清德總統是百分之四十所產生的一個總統另外的部分現在行政院就帶著大家境外敵對勢力就帶著大家去走如果經過剛才立法院程序可能就沒問題可是現在只有百分之四十的民意卻是帶著大家因為這是民進黨的黨議\n可是我們2300萬人的命運是由台灣人自己來決定的這個情況之下並不是說如果你沒有經過立法院的這樣一個決定實際上是缺乏這個程序的 實際上是很危險的更重要的是我們看到的是現在在選研中心 政大選研中心所說出的百分之超過60的人是\n維持的是維持現狀或是維持現狀之後再看以後怎麼發展這是公告的事實你可以看到這樣的迷你的知識那您知道嗎在這種情況之下會造成的是一個你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力什麼效果呢就是會慢慢覺得說他根據我們現在看看下一頁這個情況之下我們為了知識之彼百戰百勝可以看到在下一頁你可以看到的是\n中共的國家反分裂法 您作為一個國家的行政的首長你要知道對方會有什麼反應他是說如果你從台灣從中國把它分裂出去的話呢會導致 或是會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事故呢導致和平可能的這個同一性都完全消失的時候那你看和平同一性因為你把它視為進對岸 當作一個敵對勢力的時候就會考試它用非和平的方式去考試施政我覺得你不應該用\n中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動事實上總統也是依據我們立法院通過的反滲透法的定義中國大陸所作所為對台的極限施壓步步精兵哪一項不是境外敵對勢力更何況這是符合這個反滲透法的定義的\n怎麼可能 什麼黨\n全世界都知道中共對台的嚴重威脅那你就透過法律程序讓它落實\n這個是客觀事實舉世公認的對台威脅當然法律是一回事但是這個嚴重的威脅難道委員沒有感受到嗎\n有威脅 我等一下就要問到陸委會主委有威脅 可是剛剛人家說原因是什麼如果你看到果然內密就是要看到前面的因的時候那是沒辦法去解決真正的問題的陸委會現在跟行政院的問題現在就是在這個情況我現在就跟大家講因為前面有敵對的勢力本來我們之前就有就有的他的圍繞這個環台都沒有問題可是更的清楚了他現在變成說做了演習\n我的意思是說我們真的要好好解決尤其是邱主委你本身是學者出身你本身陸委會我現在甚至跟大家講的是在這邊陸委會甚至我就現在問你了啦不是等一下 院長我要跟你講你這樣子把對岸視為一個敵對勢力的時候你的情況是你要走向的是緊張還有敵意耶\n我說過 和平有兩種一種是我們夠強 一種是我們投降我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強強到讓普我之國家\n境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們如果委員如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親那絕對不是台灣現狀跟主流\n沒有這樣講 剛才主流是什麼 維持現狀維持現狀 你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流我剛才已經說了 民調呈現是60%是這樣子的您不要誤導我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的 不是嗎他是另外的 那是我們 他是他的問題我們現在主要 我們現在的問題就好了我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊\n我們就是中華民國主權獨立的國家現在這邊我們回到剛才最重要的 我想要問的是邱主委您作為陸委會的主委 你的主要工作是什麼 任務應該是怎麼樣\n我想我們仍然持續推動這個對等尊嚴符合規範健康有序的交流哪怕是我們推出了17項因應國安的這些策略我們也是努力在維護台海我們是積極努力維護台海的現狀現在要改變台海現狀的是中共當局\n好 謝謝時間到了\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:18.049 --> 00:21.816\n好謝謝主席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:32.834 --> 00:50.309\n委員好再次恭喜委員長好您是在1月113年的時候5月20號就宣誓就職的那你那時候在宣誓就職的時候你有談到於事已至成恪遵國家的法令那就盡忠職守如為事業願受最嚴厲的處罰\n\n00:52.370 --> 01:07.258\n我們繼續往下看今天我的談論的主題是涉及到說兩岸的定位在我國的憲法當中的關係在徵求條文當中認定的在前言當中是目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況\n\n01:08.539 --> 01:30.462\n那因此在十一條的時候呢在自由地區與大陸地區之間的這個人民關係呢是由兩岸人民關係條例來去約定因此有這樣子的台灣地區與大陸地區的兩岸人民關係的這個內容包括的是同樣在把第一條的這部分第二條就特地講定了在台灣地區跟大陸地區那我現在就是要問\n\n01:32.128 --> 02:00.418\n左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的\n\n02:00.947 --> 02:20.193\n好那是這個名字那是哪一個國呢我們是中華民國對所以是中華民國的下面的大陸地區跟中國台灣地區嘛對是這樣的好的這樣的情況之下您這樣講是沒有錯啦因為我們分對內跟對外但是我們面對的是共同的有一個鄰國在對面他事實上是有一點\n\n02:20.993 --> 02:46.080\n有點特殊的這樣子對待我們的情況很特殊不只有一點很特殊非常特殊沒錯沒錯這也是的確是特殊的關係好那現在我們看看您是在4月15號的時候我們再往下一頁去看的時候可以看到的是您呢在4月15號的時候提到的是以針對的是劉思邦部長的這個的談論然後您提到是說正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係這是確定的嗎\n\n02:48.254 --> 03:14.405\n中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這是事實現狀事實是這樣的情況之下但是因為我們面對的是一個對岸他對我們有相關的一個需求他有一個要求那我們現在往下看齁在這個情況之下其實你剛才也說到你確確答對了齁就中華民國的一國兩區是這樣的一國兩區不過呢在這邊要跟大家講因為你剛才提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國可是在對岸聽起來的話可能就會出現到是兩國論的這個情形\n\n03:16.546 --> 03:36.609\n我現在是說我們要知恥知彼百戰百勝因此我就要跟大家講跟卓院長你說如果您的講話因為你有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國這個有兩國論的疑慮的情況之下他就會認為說你是有準備邁向法理台獨我們現在繼續往下看\n\n03:37.330 --> 03:59.103\n如果真的要面對到國際間的在對內你是一個法治國家的時候最重要的是我認為是說你可能要做修憲或者說申請違憲審查這部分的時候你可能還在法治上面是合理的這邊地方的時候我想詢問的是你有考慮過這個情況嗎提出修憲或者是說要做違憲的審查嗎\n\n04:01.737 --> 04:27.439\n修憲的工程之浩大以及現在國會的結構應該很難甚至修憲之後還要修憲公投但是國會現在的工程就應該不簡單所以我是認為說我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例的時候甚至憲法的時候對內我們用地區這個法律的用語來談論沒有什麼大問題但是在對外我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區\n\n04:28.206 --> 04:51.743\n我們是一個國家一個主權獨立的國家這個國家叫做中華民國你要叫它中華民國台灣我們也歡迎都一樣的響亮非常好謝謝你確認這部分那我只是跟你講如果真的法治要確認這個效果的話其實提出修憲或者是做釋憲維憲審查都是可行之照好那我們現在進入到下一個議題這部分是更嚴重的部分在3月13號的時候\n\n04:53.943 --> 05:19.670\n因為賴總統在國安會會議後有這個談話就把對岸這個認定說是依照反滲透法認定他是一個定外敵對勢力對不對之後您在後來賴總統他也在同樣的時間之後他也提出了賴17條就是說因應到兩岸關係這部分敵對勢力滲透中共的這個滲透這部分他有這樣17條那我們繼續往下看的時候您在\n\n05:20.410 --> 05:44.042\n隔一天喔3月14號的時候您呢也呼應了愛總統說對岸是境外敵對勢力這樣的說法沒有錯好這就是事實那我們現在想問一個問題是請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎差異很大那請說行政院會議行政院的院會啦院會我們每週都會固定舉行那國安會議\n\n05:45.293 --> 06:01.498\n舉行的時間可能性次數都不是這樣的平凡但是很少正式舉行現在我們舉行的兩次也叫做國安高層會議好但是你剛才還忘了說一個重要的國安會議呢它事實上它事實上是總統的諮詢機構\n\n06:04.708 --> 06:32.947\n總統的諮詢機構所以那行政院長您作為行政院行政院作為國家最高的行政機關最高的決策單位就是行政院會議嘛行政院院會嘛對吧但是您在同一天的這個情況之下齁請問一下你們當因為你3月14號你說了你呼應了總統說是境外敵對勢力是中國那這種情況之下請問你3月13號這個地方這一天你有提出來\n\n06:34.684 --> 06:36.925\n行政院院會也針對境外事宜這邊有進行討論嗎3月13號對禮拜四在行政院院會我們沒有這個議題啊你們沒有這個議題那你為什麼3月14號的時候您可以就提出來就是說呼應大統統說法這個是一個\n\n06:53.410 --> 06:55.091\n因為在國安高層會議當中總統做了指示指示裡面他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力\n\n07:19.830 --> 07:43.110\n但是他是諮詢會議的性質總統已經親口講出來了17項的措施沒有錯但是你知道你是行政院長你是最高行政機關你還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議不是這樣子的沒有沒有沒有我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面那您的部分就是所以才會聽到說引起後面所有的相關的問題那總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎\n\n07:45.207 --> 08:00.990\n我等一下說明,你事實上還包括立法院,甚至還有重要的政策決策,根據憲法雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎?沒有,那是因為你沒有呼應,那是總統講的話沒問題,可是您呼應,您是行政院院長您是最高行政機關,決策機關是在行政院會議,這確定吧?報告委員,總統元旦講話,雙十講話,我們都有回應,都有呼應\n\n08:10.145 --> 08:35.173\n但是這是重大決策如果只是一般宣示那不一樣因為你把的在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前的這個部分兩岸關係的部分你把它定做把中共認為是一個敵對勢力這個是我們再去往下看特別是在反滲透法這邊十二條裡面我們看到這個內容它事實上只有被規定被滲透的對象裡面的刑事跟行政處罰並沒有針對我們看下一頁它並沒有針對\n\n08:40.065 --> 09:04.573\n總統他如何去認定他是一個另外敵對勢力這一部分的決策程序做一個規範那更重要的是呢這個是一個重大政策的改變所以他必須經過行政院會議甚至經過憲法他必須尊重立法院的重要決策的參與權那這邊事實上到立法院來做報告了那現在還要決議的這邊要根據到憲法第三條或者行政院職權行使法的使用\n\n09:05.573 --> 09:22.786\n這個部分通通都要重要事項有變更要做立法院的一個要經過立法院的決議這種情況好所以呢導致賴總統他本身做宣告對岸委員會進行決議的時候他的這個立法過程缺乏合法正當性好這個地方總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後\n\n09:26.389 --> 09:47.731\n總和了相關很多部會首長參加大家在那個會中做成的決議就是由總統對外來宣示的包括17項但是您呼籲但是我現在重點說我現在是針對您您是我國最高的行政首長但是行政院會議的決策的功能你忘記了你忽略了甚至沒有在\n\n09:48.792 --> 10:08.532\n立法院上都經過我們重要的決策,四字520號就針對這不是跟哪一個國家締約、構合總統他在申請上次的時候,核四的停建就是造成一個四字解釋,四字520號就是要後來經過立法院的你行政院長到立法院做報告之後,立法院決議之後,後來核四要再重建了\n\n10:09.153 --> 10:21.030\n所以這個地方要重啟了這部分你要知道四次解釋已經更訂了重要角色立法院要參與好那這邊你如果不確定你可以再看四次的520號解釋好那另外我更重要的是要強調的是\n\n10:23.993 --> 10:42.771\n少數的治理因為奈清德總統是百分之四十所產生的一個總統另外的部分現在行政院就帶著大家境外敵對勢力就帶著大家去走如果經過剛才立法院程序可能就沒問題可是現在只有百分之四十的民意卻是帶著大家因為這是民進黨的黨議\n\n10:44.813 --> 11:03.464\n可是我們2300萬人的命運是由台灣人自己來決定的這個情況之下並不是說如果你沒有經過立法院的這樣一個決定實際上是缺乏這個程序的實際上是很危險的更重要的是我們看到的是現在在選研中心政大選研中心所說出的百分之超過60的人是\n\n11:04.854 --> 11:30.588\n維持的是維持現狀或是維持現狀之後再看以後怎麼發展這是公告的事實你可以看到這樣的迷你的知識那您知道嗎在這種情況之下會造成的是一個你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力什麼效果呢就是會慢慢覺得說他根據我們現在看看下一頁這個情況之下我們為了知識之彼百戰百勝可以看到在下一頁你可以看到的是\n\n11:31.388 --> 11:59.467\n中共的國家反分裂法您作為一個國家的行政的首長你要知道對方會有什麼反應他是說如果你從台灣從中國把它分裂出去的話呢會導致或是會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事故呢導致和平可能的這個同一性都完全消失的時候那你看和平同一性因為你把它視為進對岸當作一個敵對勢力的時候就會考試它用非和平的方式去考試施政我覺得你不應該用\n\n12:00.908 --> 12:21.031\n中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動事實上總統也是依據我們立法院通過的反滲透法的定義中國大陸所作所為對台的極限施壓步步精兵哪一項不是境外敵對勢力更何況這是符合這個反滲透法的定義的\n\n12:21.271 --> 12:22.152\n怎麼可能什麼黨\n\n12:37.532 --> 12:40.594\n全世界都知道中共對台的嚴重威脅那你就透過法律程序讓它落實\n\n12:59.293 --> 13:09.348\n這個是客觀事實舉世公認的對台威脅當然法律是一回事但是這個嚴重的威脅難道委員沒有感受到嗎\n\n13:10.543 --> 13:35.868\n有威脅我等一下就要問到陸委會主委有威脅可是剛剛人家說原因是什麼如果你看到果然內密就是要看到前面的因的時候那是沒辦法去解決真正的問題的陸委會現在跟行政院的問題現在就是在這個情況我現在就跟大家講因為前面有敵對的勢力本來我們之前就有就有的他的圍繞這個環台都沒有問題可是更的清楚了他現在變成說做了演習\n\n13:37.628 --> 13:47.836\n我的意思是說我們真的要好好解決尤其是邱主委你本身是學者出身你本身陸委會我現在甚至跟大家講的是在這邊陸委會甚至我就現在問你了啦不是等一下院長我要跟你講你這樣子把對岸視為一個敵對勢力的時候你的情況是你要走向的是緊張還有敵意耶\n\n13:59.565 --> 14:09.491\n我說過和平有兩種一種是我們夠強一種是我們投降我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強強到讓普我之國家\n\n14:10.498 --> 14:16.003\n境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們如果委員如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親那絕對不是台灣現狀跟主流\n\n14:32.110 --> 14:44.820\n沒有這樣講剛才主流是什麼維持現狀維持現狀你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流我剛才已經說了民調呈現是60%是這樣子的您不要誤導我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的不是嗎他是另外的那是我們他是他的問題我們現在主要我們現在的問題就好了我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊\n\n14:57.227 --> 15:11.445\n我們就是中華民國主權獨立的國家現在這邊我們回到剛才最重要的我想要問的是邱主委您作為陸委會的主委你的主要工作是什麼任務應該是怎麼樣\n\n15:12.406 --> 15:35.379\n我想我們仍然持續推動這個對等尊嚴符合規範健康有序的交流哪怕是我們推出了17項因應國安的這些策略我們也是努力在維護台海我們是積極努力維護台海的現狀現在要改變台海現狀的是中共當局\n\n15:48.727 --> 15:49.147\n好謝謝時間到了\n\n","segments":[{"start":18.049,"end":21.816,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":32.834,"end":50.309,"text":"委員好再次恭喜 委員長好您是在1月113年的時候5月20號就宣誓就職的那你那時候在宣誓就職的時候你有談到於事已至成 恪遵國家的法令那就盡忠職守 如為事業願受最嚴厲的處罰"},{"start":52.37,"end":67.258,"text":"我們繼續往下看今天我的談論的主題是涉及到說兩岸的定位在我國的憲法當中的關係在徵求條文當中認定的在前言當中是目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況"},{"start":68.539,"end":90.462,"text":"那因此在十一條的時候呢在自由地區與大陸地區之間的這個人民關係呢是由兩岸人民關係條例來去約定因此有這樣子的台灣地區與大陸地區的兩岸人民關係的這個內容包括的是同樣在把第一條的這部分第二條就特地講定了在台灣地區跟大陸地區那我現在就是要問"},{"start":92.128,"end":120.418,"text":"左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上 國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的"},{"start":120.947,"end":140.193,"text":"好 那是這個名字 那是哪一個國呢我們是中華民國對 所以是中華民國的下面的大陸地區跟中國台灣地區嘛對 是這樣的 好的 這樣的情況之下您這樣講是沒有錯啦因為我們分對內跟對外但是我們面對的是共同的有一個鄰國在對面 他事實上是有一點"},{"start":140.993,"end":166.08,"text":"有點特殊的這樣子對待我們的情況很特殊不只有一點很特殊非常特殊沒錯沒錯這也是的確是特殊的關係好那現在我們看看您是在4月15號的時候我們再往下一頁去看的時候可以看到的是您呢在4月15號的時候提到的是以針對的是劉思邦部長的這個的談論然後您提到是說正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係這是確定的嗎"},{"start":168.254,"end":194.405,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這是事實 現狀事實是 這樣的情況之下但是因為我們面對的是一個對岸他對我們有相關的一個需求他有一個要求那我們現在往下看齁在這個情況之下其實你剛才也說到你確確答對了齁就中華民國的一國兩區是這樣的一國兩區不過呢在這邊要跟大家講因為你剛才提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國可是在對岸聽起來的話可能就會出現到是兩國論的這個情形"},{"start":196.546,"end":216.609,"text":"我現在是說我們要知恥知彼百戰百勝因此我就要跟大家講跟卓院長你說如果您的講話因為你有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國這個有兩國論的疑慮的情況之下他就會認為說你是有準備邁向法理台獨我們現在繼續往下看"},{"start":217.33,"end":239.103,"text":"如果真的要面對到國際間的在對內你是一個法治國家的時候最重要的是我認為是說你可能要做修憲或者說申請違憲審查這部分的時候你可能還在法治上面是合理的這邊地方的時候我想詢問的是你有考慮過這個情況嗎提出修憲或者是說要做違憲的審查嗎"},{"start":241.737,"end":267.439,"text":"修憲的工程之浩大以及現在國會的結構應該很難甚至修憲之後還要修憲公投但是國會現在的工程就應該不簡單所以我是認為說我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例的時候甚至憲法的時候對內我們用地區這個法律的用語來談論沒有什麼大問題但是在對外我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區"},{"start":268.206,"end":291.743,"text":"我們是一個國家一個主權獨立的國家這個國家叫做中華民國你要叫它中華民國台灣我們也歡迎都一樣的響亮非常好 謝謝你確認這部分那我只是跟你講如果真的法治要確認這個效果的話其實提出修憲或者是做釋憲維憲審查都是可行之照好 那我們現在進入到下一個議題這部分是更嚴重的部分在3月13號的時候"},{"start":293.943,"end":319.67,"text":"因為賴總統在國安會會議後有這個談話就把對岸這個認定說是依照反滲透法認定他是一個定外敵對勢力對不對之後您在後來賴總統他也在同樣的時間之後他也提出了賴17條就是說因應到兩岸關係這部分敵對勢力滲透中共的這個滲透這部分他有這樣17條那我們繼續往下看的時候您在"},{"start":320.41,"end":344.042,"text":"隔一天喔 3月14號的時候您呢也呼應了愛總統說對岸是境外敵對勢力這樣的說法沒有錯 好 這就是事實那我們現在想問一個問題是請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎差異很大那請說行政院會議 行政院的院會啦院會我們每週都會固定舉行那國安會議"},{"start":345.293,"end":361.498,"text":"舉行的時間可能性次數都不是這樣的平凡但是很少正式舉行現在我們舉行的兩次也叫做國安高層會議好 但是你剛才還忘了說一個重要的國安會議呢 它事實上它事實上是總統的諮詢機構"},{"start":364.708,"end":392.947,"text":"總統的諮詢機構所以那行政院長 您作為行政院行政院作為國家最高的行政機關最高的決策單位就是行政院會議嘛行政院院會嘛 對吧但是您在同一天的這個情況之下齁請問一下 你們當 因為你3月14號你說了你呼應了總統說是境外敵對勢力是中國那這種情況之下 請問你3月13號這個地方這一天你有提出來"},{"start":394.684,"end":396.925,"text":"行政院院會也針對境外事宜這邊有進行討論嗎3月13號對 禮拜四在行政院院會我們沒有這個議題啊你們沒有這個議題那你為什麼3月14號的時候您可以就提出來就是說呼應大統統說法這個是一個"},{"start":413.41,"end":415.091,"text":"因為在國安高層會議當中總統做了指示指示裡面他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力"},{"start":439.83,"end":463.11,"text":"但是他是諮詢會議的性質總統已經親口講出來了17項的措施沒有錯 但是你知道你是行政院長你是最高行政機關你還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議不是這樣子的沒有沒有沒有我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面那您的部分就是所以才會聽到說引起後面所有的相關的問題那總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎"},{"start":465.207,"end":480.99,"text":"我等一下說明,你事實上還包括立法院,甚至還有重要的政策決策,根據憲法雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎?沒有,那是因為你沒有呼應,那是總統講的話沒問題,可是您呼應,您是行政院院長您是最高行政機關,決策機關是在行政院會議,這確定吧?報告委員,總統元旦講話,雙十講話,我們都有回應,都有呼應"},{"start":490.145,"end":515.173,"text":"但是這是重大決策如果只是一般宣示那不一樣因為你把的在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前的這個部分兩岸關係的部分你把它定做把中共認為是一個敵對勢力這個是我們再去往下看特別是在反滲透法這邊十二條裡面我們看到這個內容它事實上只有被規定被滲透的對象裡面的刑事跟行政處罰並沒有針對我們看下一頁它並沒有針對"},{"start":520.065,"end":544.573,"text":"總統他如何去認定他是一個另外敵對勢力這一部分的決策程序做一個規範那更重要的是呢這個是一個重大政策的改變所以他必須經過行政院會議甚至經過憲法他必須尊重立法院的重要決策的參與權那這邊事實上到立法院來做報告了那現在還要決議的這邊要根據到憲法第三條或者行政院職權行使法的使用"},{"start":545.573,"end":562.786,"text":"這個部分 通通都要 重要事項有變更要做立法院的一個 要經過立法院的決議這種情況好 所以呢 導致賴總統他本身做 宣告對岸委員會進行決議的時候他的這個立法過程缺乏合法正當性好 這個地方總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後"},{"start":566.389,"end":587.731,"text":"總和了相關很多部會首長參加大家在那個會中做成的決議就是由總統對外來宣示的包括17項但是您呼籲但是我現在重點說我現在是針對您您是我國最高的行政首長但是行政院會議的決策的功能你忘記了你忽略了甚至沒有在"},{"start":588.792,"end":608.532,"text":"立法院上都經過我們重要的決策,四字520號就針對這不是跟哪一個國家締約、構合總統他在申請上次的時候,核四的停建就是造成一個四字解釋,四字520號就是要後來經過立法院的你行政院長到立法院做報告之後,立法院決議之後,後來核四要再重建了"},{"start":609.153,"end":621.03,"text":"所以這個地方要重啟了這部分你要知道四次解釋已經更訂了重要角色立法院要參與好那這邊你如果不確定你可以再看四次的520號解釋好那另外我更重要的是要強調的是"},{"start":623.993,"end":642.771,"text":"少數的治理因為奈清德總統是百分之四十所產生的一個總統另外的部分現在行政院就帶著大家境外敵對勢力就帶著大家去走如果經過剛才立法院程序可能就沒問題可是現在只有百分之四十的民意卻是帶著大家因為這是民進黨的黨議"},{"start":644.813,"end":663.464,"text":"可是我們2300萬人的命運是由台灣人自己來決定的這個情況之下並不是說如果你沒有經過立法院的這樣一個決定實際上是缺乏這個程序的 實際上是很危險的更重要的是我們看到的是現在在選研中心 政大選研中心所說出的百分之超過60的人是"},{"start":664.854,"end":690.588,"text":"維持的是維持現狀或是維持現狀之後再看以後怎麼發展這是公告的事實你可以看到這樣的迷你的知識那您知道嗎在這種情況之下會造成的是一個你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力什麼效果呢就是會慢慢覺得說他根據我們現在看看下一頁這個情況之下我們為了知識之彼百戰百勝可以看到在下一頁你可以看到的是"},{"start":691.388,"end":719.467,"text":"中共的國家反分裂法 您作為一個國家的行政的首長你要知道對方會有什麼反應他是說如果你從台灣從中國把它分裂出去的話呢會導致 或是會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事故呢導致和平可能的這個同一性都完全消失的時候那你看和平同一性因為你把它視為進對岸 當作一個敵對勢力的時候就會考試它用非和平的方式去考試施政我覺得你不應該用"},{"start":720.908,"end":741.031,"text":"中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動事實上總統也是依據我們立法院通過的反滲透法的定義中國大陸所作所為對台的極限施壓步步精兵哪一項不是境外敵對勢力更何況這是符合這個反滲透法的定義的"},{"start":741.271,"end":742.152,"text":"怎麼可能 什麼黨"},{"start":757.532,"end":760.594,"text":"全世界都知道中共對台的嚴重威脅那你就透過法律程序讓它落實"},{"start":779.293,"end":789.348,"text":"這個是客觀事實舉世公認的對台威脅當然法律是一回事但是這個嚴重的威脅難道委員沒有感受到嗎"},{"start":790.543,"end":815.868,"text":"有威脅 我等一下就要問到陸委會主委有威脅 可是剛剛人家說原因是什麼如果你看到果然內密就是要看到前面的因的時候那是沒辦法去解決真正的問題的陸委會現在跟行政院的問題現在就是在這個情況我現在就跟大家講因為前面有敵對的勢力本來我們之前就有就有的他的圍繞這個環台都沒有問題可是更的清楚了他現在變成說做了演習"},{"start":817.628,"end":827.836,"text":"我的意思是說我們真的要好好解決尤其是邱主委你本身是學者出身你本身陸委會我現在甚至跟大家講的是在這邊陸委會甚至我就現在問你了啦不是等一下 院長我要跟你講你這樣子把對岸視為一個敵對勢力的時候你的情況是你要走向的是緊張還有敵意耶"},{"start":839.565,"end":849.491,"text":"我說過 和平有兩種一種是我們夠強 一種是我們投降我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強強到讓普我之國家"},{"start":850.498,"end":856.003,"text":"境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們如果委員如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親那絕對不是台灣現狀跟主流"},{"start":872.11,"end":884.82,"text":"沒有這樣講 剛才主流是什麼 維持現狀維持現狀 你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流我剛才已經說了 民調呈現是60%是這樣子的您不要誤導我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的 不是嗎他是另外的 那是我們 他是他的問題我們現在主要 我們現在的問題就好了我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊"},{"start":897.227,"end":911.445,"text":"我們就是中華民國主權獨立的國家現在這邊我們回到剛才最重要的 我想要問的是邱主委您作為陸委會的主委 你的主要工作是什麼 任務應該是怎麼樣"},{"start":912.406,"end":935.379,"text":"我想我們仍然持續推動這個對等尊嚴符合規範健康有序的交流哪怕是我們推出了17項因應國安的這些策略我們也是努力在維護台海我們是積極努力維護台海的現狀現在要改變台海現狀的是中共當局"},{"start":948.727,"end":949.147,"text":"好 謝謝時間到了"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時38分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：劉委員好，再次恭喜。"],["劉委員書彬：卓院長好。您是在113年5月20號宣誓就職，你在宣誓就職的時候有講到「余誓以至誠，恪遵國家法令，盡忠職守……如違誓言，願受最嚴厲之處罰」。今天我談論的主題涉及兩岸的定位在我國憲法當中的關係，在增修條文的前言當中，目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況。第十一條的規定是自由地區與大陸地區之間的人民關係是由兩岸人民關係條例去約定的，因此，臺灣地區與大陸地區兩岸人民關係條例的內容，同樣在第一條、第二條的部分就定義了臺灣地區跟大陸地區。我現在就是要問卓院長一個問題，根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例，兩岸關係現在的狀況是一國兩區，還是兩國？請問你的答案是？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面的用字來講，當然是兩個地區，自由地區跟大陸地區，但是我們如果對外，在政治上、國際上把自己稱為地區，那是非常不宜的。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那這個名字是哪一國呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是中華民國。"],["劉委員書彬：對，所以是中華民國下的大陸地區跟臺灣地區嘛！事實上，這樣的情況之下，您這樣講也沒有錯，我們分對內跟對外，但是我們共同面對的是對面的鄰國，事實上它對待我們是有一點特殊的情況。"],["卓院長榮泰：很特殊，不是有一點。"],["劉委員書彬：是非常特殊，沒錯，的確是特殊的關係。在4月15日的時候，您針對劉世芳部長的言論提到，正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係，這是確定的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬，這是現狀事實。"],["劉委員書彬：是，在這樣的情況之下，我們面對到的對岸對我們有相關的需求及要求，剛才您的確答對了，就中華民國下的一國兩區；但因為您剛剛提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國，在對岸聽起來可能就會出現是兩國論的情形，我們要知己知彼、百戰百勝啦！","因此，卓院長因為您剛有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國，在有兩國論疑慮的情況之下，它就會認為您是有準備邁向法理臺獨。繼續往下看，如果真的要面對到國際間的話，對內我們是一個法治國家，所以我認為最重要的可能是要做修憲或者聲請違憲審查，這部分才可能在法制上是合理的，請教您有考慮過這個情況嗎？提出修憲或者是聲請違憲的審查嗎？您有思考過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：修憲的工程浩大，以及以現在國會的結構應該很難，在修憲之後還要修憲公投。"],["劉委員書彬：是，沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是現在在國會的修憲工程應該就不簡單啦！所以我認為我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例，甚至討論憲法的時候，在對內我們用「地區」這個法律用語來談論沒有什麼大問題，但是在對外，我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區，我們自己的國家，一個主權獨立的國家，這個國家叫做中華民國，您要叫他中華民國臺灣，我們也歡迎，都一樣的響亮。"],["劉委員書彬：非常好，謝謝確認這部分。如果法制要確認這個效果的話，其實提出修憲或者做釋憲、違憲審查都是可行之道。","進入下一個議題，這是更嚴重的部分，在3月13日賴總統在國安會會議後的談話提到，依照反滲透法把對岸認定是「境外敵對勢力」，對不對？之後賴總統因應兩岸關係及中共敵對勢力的滲透，也在同樣的時間提出了「賴17條」，而您在隔一天3月14日也呼應了賴總統提出對岸是境外敵對勢力的說法，沒錯，這就是說事實，請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：差異很大。"],["劉委員書彬：差異很大，請說。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們行政院的院會，每週都會固定舉行，而國安會議可能舉行的時間、次數都不會這樣的頻繁，很少正式舉行，現在我們舉行兩次的會議也叫做國安高層會議。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是您剛才忘了說一個重要的，事實上，國安會議是總統的諮詢機構，而行政院作為國家最高的行政機關，最高的決策單位就是行政院會議，是行政院院會，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["劉委員書彬：但是您在同一天的這個情況之下……因為3月14日您呼應了賴總統的境外敵對勢力是中國，請問3月13日這一天的行政院院會針對境外勢力這議題有經過討論嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：3月13日？"],["劉委員書彬：對，禮拜四。"],["卓院長榮泰：在行政院院會？"],["劉委員書彬：對，您們有討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有這個議題啊！"],["劉委員書彬：您們沒有這個議題，為什麼3月14日的時候，您怎麼可以呼應賴總統「中共是境外敵對勢力」的說法，如果沒有經過行政院會議的決議……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為在……"],["劉委員書彬：作為最高行政機關的首長，您怎麼可以沒有經過院會討論及決議就提出中共是境外的敵對勢力，您忘記了嗎？這最重要的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為在國安高層會議當中總統做的指示裡面，他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力。"],["劉委員書彬：但是它是諮詢會議的性質，請不要忘記了！"],["卓院長榮泰：總統已經親口講出來17項的因應措施。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有錯，但是你要知道你是行政院長，是最高行政機關，還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣子的。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有、沒有、沒有，憲法就是這樣子……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面。"],["劉委員書彬：所以才會引起後面所有相關的問題。我們現在繼續往下看……"],["卓院長榮泰：總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：我等一下說明，根據憲法，事實上還要尊重立法院對政府重大決策的參與權。"],["卓院長榮泰：包括總統雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，那是因為你沒有呼應，國慶是總統講的話，那沒問題，可是您是行政院院長，您是最高行政機關，決策是在行政院會議，這確定吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，總統元旦講話、雙十講話，我們都有回應、都有呼應。"],["劉委員書彬：但這是重大決策，如果只是一般宣示，那不一樣，因為在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前兩岸關係的部分，但你把中共認為是一個敵對勢力，這個……我們再繼續往下看，特別是在反滲透法第十二條的內容，事實上，只有規定被滲透對象的刑事跟行政處罰，並沒有針對總統如何去界定它是一個境外敵對勢力的決策程序去做規範。更重要的，這是一個重大政策的改變，所以必須經過行政院會議，甚至憲法規範必須尊重對立法院重要決策的參與權，應該要到立法院來做報告的，甚至還要決議的。這個部分根據憲法第六十三條或者立法院職權行使法，通通都要，重要事項的變更要經過立法院的決議。所以賴總統本身宣告對岸為境外敵對勢力的時候，它的過程缺乏合法正當性。好，這個地方……"],["卓院長榮泰：總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後，整合了相關並有很多部會首長參加，大家在那個會議中作成的決議，就是由總統對外來宣示的，包括17項……"],["劉委員書彬：但是你呼應……我現在重點是針對您，您是我國最高的行政首長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我也在那個會議中。"],["劉委員書彬：但是行政院會議決策的功能你忘記了、你忽略了……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有。"],["劉委員書彬：甚至重要決策沒有經過立法院，釋字第520號就針對核四的停建……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是跟哪一個國家締約、媾和……"],["劉委員書彬：釋字第520號要經過立法院的……行政院長到立法院做報告之後，立法院決議，後來核四要再重建了，所以這個地方重啟了，這部分你要知道，釋字已經跟你說重要決策立法院要參與，好，這邊你如果不確定，你可以再看釋字第520號的解釋。","另外，更重要的是我要強調少數的治理，因為賴清德總統是得票率40%所產生的總統，現在就境外敵對勢力，行政院帶著大家去走，如果經過立法院程序可能就沒問題，可是現在只有40%的民意，卻帶著大家……因為這是民進黨的黨意啊！我們2,300萬人的命運是由臺灣人自己來決定的，在這個情況之下，如果你沒有經過立法院這樣一個決議，事實上是缺乏這個程序的，是很危險的。更重要的，我們看到政大選研中心所做的臺灣民眾統獨立場趨勢分佈，有超過60%的人是支持維持現狀，或是維持現狀後再看以後怎麼發展，這是公告的事實，你可以看到這樣民意的結果。您知道嗎？在這種情況之下，你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力，會有什麼效果呢？就是會慢慢覺得……我們為了知己知彼、百戰百勝，你可以看到中共的反分裂國家法，您作為一個國家的行政首長，你要知道對岸會有什麼反應？它說如果臺灣從中國分裂出去的話，或者發生將會導致臺灣從中國分裂出去的重大事變，或者和平統一的可能性完全喪失的時候……因為你把對岸視為境外敵對勢力的時候，就會導致它用非和平的方式……"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，我覺得你不應該用中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動，事實上，總統也是依據立法院所通過的反滲透法的定義而為！況且中國大陸所作所為，對臺極限施壓，步步進逼，哪一項不是境外敵對勢力？更何況這是符合反滲透法定義的。"],["劉委員書彬：沒錯，但反滲透法是在蔡英文時期訂的，蔡英文執政時，是民進黨占多數一黨訂定的，當初都沒把對方設定為……"],["邱主任委員垂正：法律都是延續性的，怎麼可能什麼黨……"],["劉委員書彬：沒有、沒有，法律是有延續性，但是你的法定程序沒有做完，尤其這是重大事件，蔡英文政府並沒有做這件事，是到了卓院長才做這樣的事！現在立法院的結構就是三黨不過半，而你並沒有根據憲法上的規定來進行……"],["邱主任委員垂正：全世界都知道中共對臺的嚴重威脅，機艦擾臺……"],["劉委員書彬：那你就應該透過法律程序來落實！"],["邱主任委員垂正：這是客觀事實，是舉世公認的對臺威脅！當然，法律是一回事，但這是嚴重的威脅，難道委員沒有感受到嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：針對這個威脅，我等一下就要問陸委會主委。既然有威脅在，那麼原因是什麼？原因是什麼？現在看到果，如果不看前面的因，是無法解決真正問題的，而陸委會跟行政院現在的問題就是這個情況！我現在要跟大家講，正因為有敵對勢力的問題在，本來他們之前就會圍繞、環臺，這個沒有問題，可是現在態勢更清楚，甚至連演習都不說了！我的意思是，我們真的要好好解決這問題，尤其邱主委，你本身是學者出身，我現在要跟大家講的問題就在這裡。院長，你把對岸視為敵對勢力時，情況就會走向緊張及敵意！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過，和平有兩種，一種是我們夠強，一種是我們投降。我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強，強到讓圖我之國家、讓境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們。如果委員……"],["劉委員書彬：夠強也並不需要把對方視為敵對勢力！美國有把中國當作敵對勢力去處理，或是口頭上提到或公告出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親，那絕對不是臺灣的現狀跟主流。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，我沒有這樣講！主流是什麼？維持現狀！維持現狀！你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在中華民國在這裡……"],["劉委員書彬：我剛才已經說了，民調有60%贊成這樣子，所以不要誤導。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來，是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的，不是嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：那是他的問題，我們集中在我們現在的問題就好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊！我們就是中華民國，是主權獨立的國家……"],["劉委員書彬：因為你把敵對勢力放在那裡！我們回到最重要的問題上來，我想問邱主委，您作為陸委會的主委，你的主要工作是什麼？任務是怎麼樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們仍然持續推動對等尊嚴、符合規範、健康有序的交流，哪怕我們推出了17項因應國安的相關策略，我們也是積極努力在維護臺海現狀。現在要改變臺海現狀的是中共當局，他給我們的極限施壓就是來推翻並破壞臺海現狀！"],["劉委員書彬：敵對勢力已經讓對方有藉口危害臺灣，甚至用軍演的方式處理，我認為這才是最主要的原因。我現在想說的是……"],["主席：好，謝謝，時間到。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那就這樣子。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、陸委會的備詢。","報告院會，現在在我們二樓旁聽席是來自德國艾德諾青年政治學校，有來自印度、馬來西亞、蒙古、緬甸、尼泊爾、菲律賓、東帝汶、韓國以及德國所有年輕的政治學家。Welcome！我們掌聲歡迎。","報告院會，我們內政組的質詢已詢答完畢。本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，因此我們就不進行臨時提案之處理。","下午2點30分繼續進行外交及國防組之質詢。","現在休息。","休息（11時54分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143701_00012"}}}