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\"start\": 776.201, \"end\": 776.301, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 776.301, \"end\": 776.401, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 776.401, \"end\": 776.421, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,657 --> 00:00:07,677\n來鄧部長請\n\n2\n00:00:15,643 --> 00:00:38,399\n我今天有兩個重要議題要跟您討論分別就是工研院FHIR專案涉及抄襲且濫權封殺吹哨者那第二個議題就是兒童早療的一個服務標準的檢討部長這個電腦軟體程式雖然不是我們兩個的專業可是我相信很多事情做事的原則是一樣的\n\n3\n00:00:40,041 --> 00:00:57,223\n開放原始碼的這個目的就是要運用眾人的智慧他透過一個自由資訊的交換然後加速跟幫助這個開發的這個速度那每一個人都可以貢獻他新的想法來改善這個技術和大家共同推動這個科技的發展\n\n4\n00:00:58,024 --> 00:01:15,555\n那很重要的社群之間要彼此尊重別人的智慧成果這是最起碼最基本的標準結果呢部長衛福部有一個專案叫做台灣醫療資訊標準大平台因為這個專案執行的單位叫做公研院他剽竊\n\n5\n00:01:18,785 --> 00:01:39,034\n剽竊美國醫療醫療照護研究及品質機構我們叫做AHRQ所開發的程式然後有看不下去的人他去揭發吹哨揭發但是第一時間他被工研院在軟體社群拉黑名單禁止他跟他的公司使用工研院專案內容\n\n6\n00:01:41,109 --> 00:01:56,634\n出了這件這麼大的事情衛福部資訊處處長李建章卻說沒有違法公園院沒有標註出處確實有不尊重著作權的嫌疑竟然是如此的輕描淡寫部長我講完再請你回答謝謝\n\n7\n00:01:59,856 --> 00:02:14,454\n公園院執行專案的包括剽竊城市碼以及後續種種不當的行為不但沒有遵守城市圈的基本倫理那也已經違法了那我想知道外府部是在幫公園院闖的禍洗地嗎\n\n8\n00:02:17,578 --> 00:02:37,366\n那還是這位處長明明知道說公園院闖了這麼大的禍幹了這麼離譜的事情卻一再袒護還企圖淡化這個爭議竟然說沒有違法那部長你要不要代表這個衛福部對HRQ還有對被打壓的吹哨者對整個社群道歉你不覺得這件事丟了台灣的臉嗎\n\n9\n00:02:40,641 --> 00:02:50,747\n那麻煩你回答謝謝謝謝委員的關心我想這個事情我們非常重視而且因為這個那個牽涉到那個\n\n10\n00:02:52,825 --> 00:03:09,755\n可以說是智慧財產錢,以及說在大家合作,各國在合作共同在發展我先講到說您對這件事基本看法,然後你要不要代表衛福部跟這個所有受害者道歉好,我想這個部分經過我們的調查,我們的資訊室理事處長也是,或者說是國內\n\n11\n00:03:19,643 --> 00:03:39,818\n在醫療軟體開發裡面的...我不在談專業,我在談倫理所以我們當然一切都是一定去查它有沒有合法規、合倫理這是我們堅定的,一定要去...好,你有原則,我瞭解工人鏈現在期間所使用的工具是美國衛福部轄下機構所開發之開源軟體\n\n12\n00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:48,044\n全球都可以自由下載,但是的確他沒有證明是,這個是事實我的質詢一定有憑有據的,我現在是要說,你有去看嗎?你去看衛福部臉書的那個說明文的裡面跟分享出去文章的下面的留言網友全部在罵衛福部擺爛,我現在只是揭露一小部分讓你看,我就不讀了\n\n13\n00:04:06,678 --> 00:04:14,745\n那這件事是很嚴重的我覺得這件事跟論文抄襲是同等級的事情你不是原創沒有關係啊但是你去使用開放原始碼的程式碼你就要標註標註AHRQ的版權資訊但是公園不但隱瞞事實\n\n14\n00:04:25,515 --> 00:04:36,260\n打壓吹哨者這個專案的前身其實是很多開放原始碼的社群先進共同努力的這個吹哨者也是其中的一員但是他卻面對回頭的打擊那以後誰還敢幫政府做事呢\n\n15\n00:04:41,323 --> 00:05:00,939\n那面對這樣的這個打壓我不要說這還是國家計劃等於公園院的做法是拿納稅人的錢來掩護本來他該做沒有做的事情而且還藉此換取他不實在不正當的一個成就表現那衛夫一直迴避這個爭議不正視不道歉那出現這麼離譜的事部長你要怎麼處理我想知道你要怎麼處理\n\n16\n00:05:09,326 --> 00:05:18,214\n我們一定誠懇的檢討,然後一定要合法規,如果有任何違反法規我們絕不負擔。是衛福部檢討?調查還是你交付給誰來調查?來怎麼樣做就怎麼樣做,我想這個部分絕對沒有容許有空間。是衛福部親自調查嗎?\n\n17\n00:05:27,042 --> 00:05:44,646\n這個部分我想請李建昌處長他已經這段時間做了很多事情可不可以簡單的報告一下我要強調李處長他也是包庇的其中之一不是我想你是計畫發包單位嘛我要求衛福部自己去調查是我們已經請美國律師還有國內專家都已經完成這樣初步的調查跟委員講一下美國律師的專業調查報告\n\n18\n00:05:51,767 --> 00:06:05,586\n第一個他說這個東西是引用公用的軟體他不是所謂的商業軟體或者是一個論文美國希望大家來用所以我們去用它第二個他沒有做好的是標註沒有做好這件事情在開源的軟體裡面都\n\n19\n00:06:07,048 --> 00:06:26,467\n本來就是大家可以用人家有這個雅量啊我們的公開資訊也要這樣現在重點是沒有標註嘛對沒有標註這個事情在Airpods2.0的第六章有清楚的公告做四件事情我們四件事情完全做第一件三十日之內修正完全修正第二可做可不做就是我們通知美國HRQ\n\n20\n00:06:27,148 --> 00:06:39,307\n我們已經通知美國HRQ了第三這不涉商業所以沒有任何的這個法律的糾紛處長請你講話緩和一點你今天有問題很大那麼這個工研院把專案直接從開源社群關掉當作什麼事都沒有發生\n\n21\n00:06:43,367 --> 00:06:58,020\n這個封鎖的部分我們第一時間發現就叫他打開第二個他封鎖的東西不是我們合約內要交付的事情所以我們就這個也要請工研院來嚴正的面對這個問題跟社群解釋請問你什麼時候打開你已經打開了嗎早就打開了這個第一時間我們發現我們就打開了\n\n22\n00:07:02,486 --> 00:07:13,973\n部長我現在要說的你要趕快徹查你看這一路過程你聽嘛他也不敢否認嘛是不是好好審視這個你要想想看徹查然後思考終止契約\n\n23\n00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:19,944\n好我們一切依法依法嚴格辦理你這個公務員這個很離譜的那個聲明啦非常這個而且會對於這個吹哨者打壓這個是最嚴重的事吹哨者打壓你要提出說明跟道歉你不但是打壓他把他封鎖不讓他使用\n\n24\n00:07:36,394 --> 00:08:05,080\n我們去查明這整個情況如果有真的不應該打壓的那當然是絕對絕對要嚴格的來處理部長我要求的下面有幾項今天如果不完整我助理會把資訊給你我要求衛福部針對下一列事項公開跟國人說明而且要這個報告交到衛環委員會來第一個衛福部內部對於廠商的約束力跟執行成果驗證方式是什麼是不是隱當\n\n25\n00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:12,342\n第二個抄襲的成果攸關兩個標案大家可以媒體可以注意一個是4億一個是1億多高達5億多請問實質交付的項目是什麼第三出現這麼離譜的爭議這個計劃執行單位的運作及經費的合理性他還追加預算勒是否允當你要不要重新檢視部長讓我講完我要求這些東西你看到三點我還有衛福部是否要給予該單位\n\n26\n00:08:35,271 --> 00:08:56,017\n符合比例的處罰例如終止契約台大校長當年涉及這個參與這個論文的抄襲結果他下台了轟轟烈烈吵了一段時間然後他下台了另外衛福部是否應該去了解該單位這樣行徑是否已經存在一段時間那你未來發包\n\n27\n00:08:57,915 --> 00:09:25,848\n你要不要特別注意什麼我希望有這份報告出來啊好沒問題那個委員所關心的也是我們會很重視的不是你要承諾我你要做這件事情啊我承諾你針對這幾個問題我們好好的來調查要提出報告那你今天大家都知道是事實你要不要先向這個HRQ還有向這個吹哨者他被打壓然後被對這個社群開源社群要道歉F部可以道歉嗎\n\n28\n00:09:26,701 --> 00:09:44,093\n我想先了解事實以後,當然該法辦的就法辦,該管理的就管理,該道歉的就道歉公民院的鄉民跟處長的說法都已經寫給你看了,他就是輕描淡寫說我們沒有尊重這個標示等等,他就是用這個方式來處理啊沒有委員會找美國律師處理,不是我處理\n\n29\n00:09:50,269 --> 00:10:10,479\n道歉這麼困難嗎道歉沒有很困難該道歉就道歉但是問題我們把事情了解得更清楚以後需要道歉的我們就道歉需要改善的我們就馬上改善這是重要的事情我想如果這整個過程其實該究責誰就究責誰不要說對那個很專業很認真的\n\n30\n00:10:17,262 --> 00:10:33,138\n這個吹哨子他也有貢獻過啊,結果你們回頭打壓他啊封鎖他,然後封鎖他跟他的公司使用但是那個部分馬上,我們知道以後馬上要求公然鏈就馬上打開了,不能這樣子所以部長你是知道這件事情的啦\n\n31\n00:10:34,479 --> 00:10:57,517\n所以我們如果確定了解了以後該處罰就處罰該做處理就處理當然該道歉就道歉我聽到你今天的這個詢問我也覺得你也懂這件事情啦學金委員放心啦我們這個結論是非常重視而且該怎麼做就怎麼做這個跟抄襲入門沒有兩樣\n\n32\n00:10:58,698 --> 00:11:11,971\n對於那個如果說在國際上丟臉有意見或者有提出一些不同的看法的話我覺得都應該要尊重這不是看法你就是原始沒有標註出處嘛你在竊取人家的智慧成果嘛這個部分其實是有\n\n33\n00:11:16,895 --> 00:11:20,016\n其實是我們的資訊室有團隊然後找美國的律師去馬上第一時間去了解怎麼做你是吹哨者講了以後你們一邊說你告訴我有做一方面打壓他嘛就封鎖他嘛你們就做事這個從事院把他封鎖掉了我們衛福部絕對不會去打壓任何一個提供你發包你出錢你要監督\n\n34\n00:11:40,745 --> 00:12:08,642\n那是工研院個人的行為但是我們必須督導你出的錢五億多你出的錢你發包單將來你要怎麼看待這個發包單會有分兩種情況一種是他們工研院本身自己的事情一種是跟我們合約的部分如果有合約的部分有違法有違反規定工研院我另外會去質詢我今天要知道是衛福部的態度衛福部發包單位的態度完全依法辦理而且如果有\n\n35\n00:12:10,603 --> 00:12:38,476\n這個譬如說接了一個因為是廠商你江梅要把他黑名單列黑名單跟他吹哨子列黑名單以後他提出的機會你要好好看我想這個我依照我們過去多年的經驗當然如果有比較不好的記錄有前科嘛不好的記錄那當然就是未來在合作上面希望你記得這是做人基本原則做事管理的基本原則那我們基本上說實在衛福部所有的我們都是委員會制的說實在我們也沒有多今天他就發現了\n\n36\n00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:56,421\n那這個一定會給委員一個很大的參考先不要推給公園院公園院我自然會去質詢政府部的責任我等你的道歉要公開道歉這個臉丟到國外去了謝謝部長我們依法辦理而且會跟國際間做好最好的溝通請委員放心謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7657\t7677\t來 鄧部長請\n15643\t38399\t我今天有兩個重要議題要跟您討論分別就是工研院FHIR專案涉及抄襲且濫權封殺吹哨者那第二個議題就是兒童早療的一個服務標準的檢討部長這個電腦軟體程式雖然不是我們兩個的專業可是我相信很多事情做事的原則是一樣的\n40041\t57223\t開放原始碼的這個目的就是要運用眾人的智慧他透過一個自由資訊的交換然後加速跟幫助這個開發的這個速度那每一個人都可以貢獻他新的想法來改善這個技術和大家共同推動這個科技的發展\n58024\t75555\t那很重要的社群之間要彼此尊重別人的智慧成果這是最起碼最基本的標準結果呢部長衛福部有一個專案叫做台灣醫療資訊標準大平台因為這個專案執行的單位叫做公研院他剽竊\n78785\t99034\t剽竊美國醫療醫療照護研究及品質機構我們叫做AHRQ所開發的程式然後有看不下去的人他去揭發吹哨揭發但是第一時間他被工研院在軟體社群拉黑名單禁止他跟他的公司使用工研院專案內容\n101109\t116634\t出了這件這麼大的事情衛福部資訊處處長李建章卻說沒有違法公園院沒有標註出處確實有不尊重著作權的嫌疑竟然是如此的輕描淡寫部長我講完再請你回答謝謝\n119856\t134454\t公園院執行專案的包括剽竊城市碼以及後續種種不當的行為不但沒有遵守城市圈的基本倫理那也已經違法了那我想知道外府部是在幫公園院闖的禍洗地嗎\n137578\t157366\t那還是這位處長明明知道說公園院闖了這麼大的禍幹了這麼離譜的事情卻一再袒護還企圖淡化這個爭議竟然說沒有違法那部長你要不要代表這個衛福部對HRQ還有對被打壓的吹哨者對整個社群道歉你不覺得這件事丟了台灣的臉嗎\n160641\t170747\t那麻煩你回答謝謝謝謝委員的關心我想這個事情我們非常重視而且因為這個那個牽涉到那個\n172825\t189755\t可以說是智慧財產錢,以及說在大家合作,各國在合作共同在發展我先講到說您對這件事基本看法,然後你要不要代表衛福部跟這個所有受害者道歉好,我想這個部分經過我們的調查,我們的資訊室理事處長也是,或者說是國內\n199643\t219818\t在醫療軟體開發裡面的...我不在談專業,我在談倫理所以我們當然一切都是一定去查它有沒有合法規、合倫理這是我們堅定的,一定要去...好,你有原則,我瞭解工人鏈現在期間所使用的工具是美國衛福部轄下機構所開發之開源軟體\n223120\t228044\t全球都可以自由下載,但是的確他沒有證明是,這個是事實我的質詢一定有憑有據的,我現在是要說,你有去看嗎?你去看衛福部臉書的那個說明文的裡面跟分享出去文章的下面的留言網友全部在罵衛福部擺爛,我現在只是揭露一小部分讓你看,我就不讀了\n246678\t254745\t那這件事是很嚴重的我覺得這件事跟論文抄襲是同等級的事情你不是原創沒有關係啊但是你去使用開放原始碼的程式碼你就要標註標註AHRQ的版權資訊但是公園不但隱瞞事實\n265515\t276260\t打壓吹哨者這個專案的前身其實是很多開放原始碼的社群先進共同努力的這個吹哨者也是其中的一員但是他卻面對回頭的打擊那以後誰還敢幫政府做事呢\n281323\t300939\t那面對這樣的這個打壓我不要說這還是國家計劃等於公園院的做法是拿納稅人的錢來掩護本來他該做沒有做的事情而且還藉此換取他不實在不正當的一個成就表現那衛夫一直迴避這個爭議不正視不道歉那出現這麼離譜的事部長你要怎麼處理我想知道你要怎麼處理\n309326\t318214\t我們一定誠懇的檢討,然後一定要合法規,如果有任何違反法規我們絕不負擔。是衛福部檢討?調查還是你交付給誰來調查?來怎麼樣做就怎麼樣做,我想這個部分絕對沒有容許有空間。是衛福部親自調查嗎?\n327042\t344646\t這個部分我想請李建昌處長他已經這段時間做了很多事情可不可以簡單的報告一下我要強調李處長他也是包庇的其中之一不是我想你是計畫發包單位嘛我要求衛福部自己去調查是我們已經請美國律師還有國內專家都已經完成這樣初步的調查跟委員講一下美國律師的專業調查報告\n351767\t365586\t第一個他說這個東西是引用公用的軟體他不是所謂的商業軟體或者是一個論文美國希望大家來用所以我們去用它第二個他沒有做好的是標註沒有做好這件事情在開源的軟體裡面都\n367048\t386467\t本來就是大家可以用人家有這個雅量啊我們的公開資訊也要這樣現在重點是沒有標註嘛對 沒有標註這個事情在Airpods 2.0的第六章有清楚的公告做四件事情我們四件事情完全做第一件 三十日之內修正 完全修正第二 可做可不做就是我們通知美國HRQ\n387148\t399307\t我們已經通知美國HRQ了第三這不涉商業所以沒有任何的這個法律的糾紛處長請你講話緩和一點你今天有問題很大那麼這個工研院把專案直接從開源社群關掉當作什麼事都沒有發生\n403367\t418020\t這個封鎖的部分我們第一時間發現就叫他打開第二個他封鎖的東西不是我們合約內要交付的事情所以我們就這個也要請工研院來嚴正的面對這個問題跟社群解釋請問你什麼時候打開你已經打開了嗎早就打開了這個第一時間我們發現我們就打開了\n422486\t433973\t部長我現在要說的 你要趕快徹查你看這一路過程 你聽嘛 他也不敢否認嘛是不是好好審視這個 你要想想看 徹查然後思考終止契約\n435100\t439944\t好 我們一切依法 依法嚴格辦理你這個公務員這個很離譜的那個聲明啦非常這個 而且會對於這個吹哨者打壓 這個是最嚴重的事吹哨者打壓 你要提出說明跟道歉你不但是打壓他 把他封鎖 不讓他使用\n456394\t485080\t我們去查明這整個情況如果有真的不應該打壓的那當然是絕對絕對要嚴格的來處理部長我要求的下面有幾項今天如果不完整我助理會把資訊給你我要求衛福部針對下一列事項公開跟國人說明而且要這個報告交到衛環委員會來第一個衛福部內部對於廠商的約束力跟執行成果驗證方式是什麼是不是隱當\n486360\t492342\t第二個抄襲的成果攸關兩個標案大家可以媒體可以注意一個是4億一個是1億多高達5億多請問實質交付的項目是什麼第三出現這麼離譜的爭議這個計劃執行單位的運作及經費的合理性他還追加預算勒是否允當你要不要重新檢視部長讓我講完我要求這些東西你看到三點我還有衛福部是否要給予該單位\n515271\t536017\t符合比例的處罰 例如終止契約台大校長當年涉及這個參與這個論文的抄襲結果他下台了轟轟烈烈吵了一段時間然後他下台了另外衛福部是否應該去了解該單位這樣行徑是否已經存在一段時間那你未來發包\n537915\t565848\t你要不要特別注意什麼我希望有這份報告出來啊好沒問題那個委員所關心的也是我們會很重視的不是你要承諾我你要做這件事情啊我承諾你針對這幾個問題我們好好的來調查要提出報告那你今天大家都知道是事實你要不要先向這個HRQ還有向這個吹哨者他被打壓然後被對這個社群開源社群要道歉F部可以道歉嗎\n566701\t584093\t我想先了解事實以後,當然該法辦的就法辦,該管理的就管理,該道歉的就道歉公民院的鄉民跟處長的說法都已經寫給你看了,他就是輕描淡寫說我們沒有尊重這個標示等等,他就是用這個方式來處理啊沒有委員會找美國律師處理,不是我處理\n590269\t610479\t道歉這麼困難嗎道歉沒有很困難 該道歉就道歉但是問題我們把事情了解得更清楚以後需要道歉的我們就道歉 需要改善的我們就馬上改善這是重要的事情我想如果這整個過程其實該究責誰就究責誰不要說對那個很專業很認真的\n617262\t633138\t這個吹哨子他也有貢獻過啊,結果你們回頭打壓他啊封鎖他,然後封鎖他跟他的公司使用但是那個部分馬上,我們知道以後馬上要求公然鏈就馬上打開了,不能這樣子所以部長你是知道這件事情的啦\n634479\t657517\t所以我們如果確定了解了以後 該處罰就處罰 該做處理就處理當然該道歉就道歉我聽到你今天的這個詢問 我也覺得你也懂這件事情啦學金委員放心啦 我們這個結論是非常重視 而且該怎麼做就怎麼做這個跟抄襲入門沒有兩樣\n658698\t671971\t對於那個如果說在國際上丟臉有意見或者有提出一些不同的看法的話我覺得都應該要尊重這不是看法你就是原始沒有標註出處嘛你在竊取人家的智慧成果嘛這個部分其實是有\n676895\t680016\t其實是我們的資訊室有團隊然後找美國的律師去馬上第一時間去了解怎麼做你是吹哨者講了以後你們一邊說你告訴我有做一方面打壓他嘛就封鎖他嘛你們就做事這個從事院把他封鎖掉了我們衛福部絕對不會去打壓任何一個提供你發包你出錢你要監督\n700745\t728642\t那是工研院個人的行為但是我們必須督導你出的錢五億多你出的錢你發包單將來你要怎麼看待這個發包單會有分兩種情況一種是他們工研院本身自己的事情一種是跟我們合約的部分如果有合約的部分有違法有違反規定工研院我另外會去質詢我今天要知道是衛福部的態度衛福部發包單位的態度完全依法辦理而且如果有\n730603\t758476\t這個譬如說接了一個因為是廠商你江梅要把他黑名單列黑名單跟他吹哨子列黑名單以後他提出的機會你要好好看我想這個我依照我們過去多年的經驗當然如果有比較不好的記錄有前科嘛不好的記錄那當然就是未來在合作上面希望你記得這是做人基本原則做事管理的基本原則那我們基本上說實在衛福部所有的我們都是委員會制的說實在我們也沒有多今天他就發現了\n759516\t776421\t那這個一定會給委員一個很大的參考先不要推給公園院 公園院我自然會去質詢政府部的責任 我等你的道歉要公開道歉 這個臉丟到國外去了謝謝部長我們依法辦理 而且會跟國際間做好最好的溝通請委員放心謝謝\n","txt":"來 鄧部長請\n我今天有兩個重要議題要跟您討論分別就是工研院FHIR專案涉及抄襲且濫權封殺吹哨者那第二個議題就是兒童早療的一個服務標準的檢討部長這個電腦軟體程式雖然不是我們兩個的專業可是我相信很多事情做事的原則是一樣的\n開放原始碼的這個目的就是要運用眾人的智慧他透過一個自由資訊的交換然後加速跟幫助這個開發的這個速度那每一個人都可以貢獻他新的想法來改善這個技術和大家共同推動這個科技的發展\n那很重要的社群之間要彼此尊重別人的智慧成果這是最起碼最基本的標準結果呢部長衛福部有一個專案叫做台灣醫療資訊標準大平台因為這個專案執行的單位叫做公研院他剽竊\n剽竊美國醫療醫療照護研究及品質機構我們叫做AHRQ所開發的程式然後有看不下去的人他去揭發吹哨揭發但是第一時間他被工研院在軟體社群拉黑名單禁止他跟他的公司使用工研院專案內容\n出了這件這麼大的事情衛福部資訊處處長李建章卻說沒有違法公園院沒有標註出處確實有不尊重著作權的嫌疑竟然是如此的輕描淡寫部長我講完再請你回答謝謝\n公園院執行專案的包括剽竊城市碼以及後續種種不當的行為不但沒有遵守城市圈的基本倫理那也已經違法了那我想知道外府部是在幫公園院闖的禍洗地嗎\n那還是這位處長明明知道說公園院闖了這麼大的禍幹了這麼離譜的事情卻一再袒護還企圖淡化這個爭議竟然說沒有違法那部長你要不要代表這個衛福部對HRQ還有對被打壓的吹哨者對整個社群道歉你不覺得這件事丟了台灣的臉嗎\n那麻煩你回答謝謝謝謝委員的關心我想這個事情我們非常重視而且因為這個那個牽涉到那個\n可以說是智慧財產錢,以及說在大家合作,各國在合作共同在發展我先講到說您對這件事基本看法,然後你要不要代表衛福部跟這個所有受害者道歉好,我想這個部分經過我們的調查,我們的資訊室理事處長也是,或者說是國內\n在醫療軟體開發裡面的...我不在談專業,我在談倫理所以我們當然一切都是一定去查它有沒有合法規、合倫理這是我們堅定的,一定要去...好,你有原則,我瞭解工人鏈現在期間所使用的工具是美國衛福部轄下機構所開發之開源軟體\n全球都可以自由下載,但是的確他沒有證明是,這個是事實我的質詢一定有憑有據的,我現在是要說,你有去看嗎?你去看衛福部臉書的那個說明文的裡面跟分享出去文章的下面的留言網友全部在罵衛福部擺爛,我現在只是揭露一小部分讓你看,我就不讀了\n那這件事是很嚴重的我覺得這件事跟論文抄襲是同等級的事情你不是原創沒有關係啊但是你去使用開放原始碼的程式碼你就要標註標註AHRQ的版權資訊但是公園不但隱瞞事實\n打壓吹哨者這個專案的前身其實是很多開放原始碼的社群先進共同努力的這個吹哨者也是其中的一員但是他卻面對回頭的打擊那以後誰還敢幫政府做事呢\n那面對這樣的這個打壓我不要說這還是國家計劃等於公園院的做法是拿納稅人的錢來掩護本來他該做沒有做的事情而且還藉此換取他不實在不正當的一個成就表現那衛夫一直迴避這個爭議不正視不道歉那出現這麼離譜的事部長你要怎麼處理我想知道你要怎麼處理\n我們一定誠懇的檢討,然後一定要合法規,如果有任何違反法規我們絕不負擔。是衛福部檢討?調查還是你交付給誰來調查?來怎麼樣做就怎麼樣做,我想這個部分絕對沒有容許有空間。是衛福部親自調查嗎?\n這個部分我想請李建昌處長他已經這段時間做了很多事情可不可以簡單的報告一下我要強調李處長他也是包庇的其中之一不是我想你是計畫發包單位嘛我要求衛福部自己去調查是我們已經請美國律師還有國內專家都已經完成這樣初步的調查跟委員講一下美國律師的專業調查報告\n第一個他說這個東西是引用公用的軟體他不是所謂的商業軟體或者是一個論文美國希望大家來用所以我們去用它第二個他沒有做好的是標註沒有做好這件事情在開源的軟體裡面都\n本來就是大家可以用人家有這個雅量啊我們的公開資訊也要這樣現在重點是沒有標註嘛對 沒有標註這個事情在Airpods 2.0的第六章有清楚的公告做四件事情我們四件事情完全做第一件 三十日之內修正 完全修正第二 可做可不做就是我們通知美國HRQ\n我們已經通知美國HRQ了第三這不涉商業所以沒有任何的這個法律的糾紛處長請你講話緩和一點你今天有問題很大那麼這個工研院把專案直接從開源社群關掉當作什麼事都沒有發生\n這個封鎖的部分我們第一時間發現就叫他打開第二個他封鎖的東西不是我們合約內要交付的事情所以我們就這個也要請工研院來嚴正的面對這個問題跟社群解釋請問你什麼時候打開你已經打開了嗎早就打開了這個第一時間我們發現我們就打開了\n部長我現在要說的 你要趕快徹查你看這一路過程 你聽嘛 他也不敢否認嘛是不是好好審視這個 你要想想看 徹查然後思考終止契約\n好 我們一切依法 依法嚴格辦理你這個公務員這個很離譜的那個聲明啦非常這個 而且會對於這個吹哨者打壓 這個是最嚴重的事吹哨者打壓 你要提出說明跟道歉你不但是打壓他 把他封鎖 不讓他使用\n我們去查明這整個情況如果有真的不應該打壓的那當然是絕對絕對要嚴格的來處理部長我要求的下面有幾項今天如果不完整我助理會把資訊給你我要求衛福部針對下一列事項公開跟國人說明而且要這個報告交到衛環委員會來第一個衛福部內部對於廠商的約束力跟執行成果驗證方式是什麼是不是隱當\n第二個抄襲的成果攸關兩個標案大家可以媒體可以注意一個是4億一個是1億多高達5億多請問實質交付的項目是什麼第三出現這麼離譜的爭議這個計劃執行單位的運作及經費的合理性他還追加預算勒是否允當你要不要重新檢視部長讓我講完我要求這些東西你看到三點我還有衛福部是否要給予該單位\n符合比例的處罰 例如終止契約台大校長當年涉及這個參與這個論文的抄襲結果他下台了轟轟烈烈吵了一段時間然後他下台了另外衛福部是否應該去了解該單位這樣行徑是否已經存在一段時間那你未來發包\n你要不要特別注意什麼我希望有這份報告出來啊好沒問題那個委員所關心的也是我們會很重視的不是你要承諾我你要做這件事情啊我承諾你針對這幾個問題我們好好的來調查要提出報告那你今天大家都知道是事實你要不要先向這個HRQ還有向這個吹哨者他被打壓然後被對這個社群開源社群要道歉F部可以道歉嗎\n我想先了解事實以後,當然該法辦的就法辦,該管理的就管理,該道歉的就道歉公民院的鄉民跟處長的說法都已經寫給你看了,他就是輕描淡寫說我們沒有尊重這個標示等等,他就是用這個方式來處理啊沒有委員會找美國律師處理,不是我處理\n道歉這麼困難嗎道歉沒有很困難 該道歉就道歉但是問題我們把事情了解得更清楚以後需要道歉的我們就道歉 需要改善的我們就馬上改善這是重要的事情我想如果這整個過程其實該究責誰就究責誰不要說對那個很專業很認真的\n這個吹哨子他也有貢獻過啊,結果你們回頭打壓他啊封鎖他,然後封鎖他跟他的公司使用但是那個部分馬上,我們知道以後馬上要求公然鏈就馬上打開了,不能這樣子所以部長你是知道這件事情的啦\n所以我們如果確定了解了以後 該處罰就處罰 該做處理就處理當然該道歉就道歉我聽到你今天的這個詢問 我也覺得你也懂這件事情啦學金委員放心啦 我們這個結論是非常重視 而且該怎麼做就怎麼做這個跟抄襲入門沒有兩樣\n對於那個如果說在國際上丟臉有意見或者有提出一些不同的看法的話我覺得都應該要尊重這不是看法你就是原始沒有標註出處嘛你在竊取人家的智慧成果嘛這個部分其實是有\n其實是我們的資訊室有團隊然後找美國的律師去馬上第一時間去了解怎麼做你是吹哨者講了以後你們一邊說你告訴我有做一方面打壓他嘛就封鎖他嘛你們就做事這個從事院把他封鎖掉了我們衛福部絕對不會去打壓任何一個提供你發包你出錢你要監督\n那是工研院個人的行為但是我們必須督導你出的錢五億多你出的錢你發包單將來你要怎麼看待這個發包單會有分兩種情況一種是他們工研院本身自己的事情一種是跟我們合約的部分如果有合約的部分有違法有違反規定工研院我另外會去質詢我今天要知道是衛福部的態度衛福部發包單位的態度完全依法辦理而且如果有\n這個譬如說接了一個因為是廠商你江梅要把他黑名單列黑名單跟他吹哨子列黑名單以後他提出的機會你要好好看我想這個我依照我們過去多年的經驗當然如果有比較不好的記錄有前科嘛不好的記錄那當然就是未來在合作上面希望你記得這是做人基本原則做事管理的基本原則那我們基本上說實在衛福部所有的我們都是委員會制的說實在我們也沒有多今天他就發現了\n那這個一定會給委員一個很大的參考先不要推給公園院 公園院我自然會去質詢政府部的責任 我等你的道歉要公開道歉 這個臉丟到國外去了謝謝部長我們依法辦理 而且會跟國際間做好最好的溝通請委員放心謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.657 --> 00:07.677\n來鄧部長請\n\n00:15.643 --> 00:38.399\n我今天有兩個重要議題要跟您討論分別就是工研院FHIR專案涉及抄襲且濫權封殺吹哨者那第二個議題就是兒童早療的一個服務標準的檢討部長這個電腦軟體程式雖然不是我們兩個的專業可是我相信很多事情做事的原則是一樣的\n\n00:40.041 --> 00:57.223\n開放原始碼的這個目的就是要運用眾人的智慧他透過一個自由資訊的交換然後加速跟幫助這個開發的這個速度那每一個人都可以貢獻他新的想法來改善這個技術和大家共同推動這個科技的發展\n\n00:58.024 --> 01:15.555\n那很重要的社群之間要彼此尊重別人的智慧成果這是最起碼最基本的標準結果呢部長衛福部有一個專案叫做台灣醫療資訊標準大平台因為這個專案執行的單位叫做公研院他剽竊\n\n01:18.785 --> 01:39.034\n剽竊美國醫療醫療照護研究及品質機構我們叫做AHRQ所開發的程式然後有看不下去的人他去揭發吹哨揭發但是第一時間他被工研院在軟體社群拉黑名單禁止他跟他的公司使用工研院專案內容\n\n01:41.109 --> 01:56.634\n出了這件這麼大的事情衛福部資訊處處長李建章卻說沒有違法公園院沒有標註出處確實有不尊重著作權的嫌疑竟然是如此的輕描淡寫部長我講完再請你回答謝謝\n\n01:59.856 --> 02:14.454\n公園院執行專案的包括剽竊城市碼以及後續種種不當的行為不但沒有遵守城市圈的基本倫理那也已經違法了那我想知道外府部是在幫公園院闖的禍洗地嗎\n\n02:17.578 --> 02:37.366\n那還是這位處長明明知道說公園院闖了這麼大的禍幹了這麼離譜的事情卻一再袒護還企圖淡化這個爭議竟然說沒有違法那部長你要不要代表這個衛福部對HRQ還有對被打壓的吹哨者對整個社群道歉你不覺得這件事丟了台灣的臉嗎\n\n02:40.641 --> 02:50.747\n那麻煩你回答謝謝謝謝委員的關心我想這個事情我們非常重視而且因為這個那個牽涉到那個\n\n02:52.825 --> 03:09.755\n可以說是智慧財產錢,以及說在大家合作,各國在合作共同在發展我先講到說您對這件事基本看法,然後你要不要代表衛福部跟這個所有受害者道歉好,我想這個部分經過我們的調查,我們的資訊室理事處長也是,或者說是國內\n\n03:19.643 --> 03:39.818\n在醫療軟體開發裡面的...我不在談專業,我在談倫理所以我們當然一切都是一定去查它有沒有合法規、合倫理這是我們堅定的,一定要去...好,你有原則,我瞭解工人鏈現在期間所使用的工具是美國衛福部轄下機構所開發之開源軟體\n\n03:43.120 --> 03:48.044\n全球都可以自由下載,但是的確他沒有證明是,這個是事實我的質詢一定有憑有據的,我現在是要說,你有去看嗎?你去看衛福部臉書的那個說明文的裡面跟分享出去文章的下面的留言網友全部在罵衛福部擺爛,我現在只是揭露一小部分讓你看,我就不讀了\n\n04:06.678 --> 04:14.745\n那這件事是很嚴重的我覺得這件事跟論文抄襲是同等級的事情你不是原創沒有關係啊但是你去使用開放原始碼的程式碼你就要標註標註AHRQ的版權資訊但是公園不但隱瞞事實\n\n04:25.515 --> 04:36.260\n打壓吹哨者這個專案的前身其實是很多開放原始碼的社群先進共同努力的這個吹哨者也是其中的一員但是他卻面對回頭的打擊那以後誰還敢幫政府做事呢\n\n04:41.323 --> 05:00.939\n那面對這樣的這個打壓我不要說這還是國家計劃等於公園院的做法是拿納稅人的錢來掩護本來他該做沒有做的事情而且還藉此換取他不實在不正當的一個成就表現那衛夫一直迴避這個爭議不正視不道歉那出現這麼離譜的事部長你要怎麼處理我想知道你要怎麼處理\n\n05:09.326 --> 05:18.214\n我們一定誠懇的檢討,然後一定要合法規,如果有任何違反法規我們絕不負擔。是衛福部檢討?調查還是你交付給誰來調查?來怎麼樣做就怎麼樣做,我想這個部分絕對沒有容許有空間。是衛福部親自調查嗎?\n\n05:27.042 --> 05:44.646\n這個部分我想請李建昌處長他已經這段時間做了很多事情可不可以簡單的報告一下我要強調李處長他也是包庇的其中之一不是我想你是計畫發包單位嘛我要求衛福部自己去調查是我們已經請美國律師還有國內專家都已經完成這樣初步的調查跟委員講一下美國律師的專業調查報告\n\n05:51.767 --> 06:05.586\n第一個他說這個東西是引用公用的軟體他不是所謂的商業軟體或者是一個論文美國希望大家來用所以我們去用它第二個他沒有做好的是標註沒有做好這件事情在開源的軟體裡面都\n\n06:07.048 --> 06:26.467\n本來就是大家可以用人家有這個雅量啊我們的公開資訊也要這樣現在重點是沒有標註嘛對沒有標註這個事情在Airpods2.0的第六章有清楚的公告做四件事情我們四件事情完全做第一件三十日之內修正完全修正第二可做可不做就是我們通知美國HRQ\n\n06:27.148 --> 06:39.307\n我們已經通知美國HRQ了第三這不涉商業所以沒有任何的這個法律的糾紛處長請你講話緩和一點你今天有問題很大那麼這個工研院把專案直接從開源社群關掉當作什麼事都沒有發生\n\n06:43.367 --> 06:58.020\n這個封鎖的部分我們第一時間發現就叫他打開第二個他封鎖的東西不是我們合約內要交付的事情所以我們就這個也要請工研院來嚴正的面對這個問題跟社群解釋請問你什麼時候打開你已經打開了嗎早就打開了這個第一時間我們發現我們就打開了\n\n07:02.486 --> 07:13.973\n部長我現在要說的你要趕快徹查你看這一路過程你聽嘛他也不敢否認嘛是不是好好審視這個你要想想看徹查然後思考終止契約\n\n07:15.100 --> 07:19.944\n好我們一切依法依法嚴格辦理你這個公務員這個很離譜的那個聲明啦非常這個而且會對於這個吹哨者打壓這個是最嚴重的事吹哨者打壓你要提出說明跟道歉你不但是打壓他把他封鎖不讓他使用\n\n07:36.394 --> 08:05.080\n我們去查明這整個情況如果有真的不應該打壓的那當然是絕對絕對要嚴格的來處理部長我要求的下面有幾項今天如果不完整我助理會把資訊給你我要求衛福部針對下一列事項公開跟國人說明而且要這個報告交到衛環委員會來第一個衛福部內部對於廠商的約束力跟執行成果驗證方式是什麼是不是隱當\n\n08:06.360 --> 08:12.342\n第二個抄襲的成果攸關兩個標案大家可以媒體可以注意一個是4億一個是1億多高達5億多請問實質交付的項目是什麼第三出現這麼離譜的爭議這個計劃執行單位的運作及經費的合理性他還追加預算勒是否允當你要不要重新檢視部長讓我講完我要求這些東西你看到三點我還有衛福部是否要給予該單位\n\n08:35.271 --> 08:56.017\n符合比例的處罰例如終止契約台大校長當年涉及這個參與這個論文的抄襲結果他下台了轟轟烈烈吵了一段時間然後他下台了另外衛福部是否應該去了解該單位這樣行徑是否已經存在一段時間那你未來發包\n\n08:57.915 --> 09:25.848\n你要不要特別注意什麼我希望有這份報告出來啊好沒問題那個委員所關心的也是我們會很重視的不是你要承諾我你要做這件事情啊我承諾你針對這幾個問題我們好好的來調查要提出報告那你今天大家都知道是事實你要不要先向這個HRQ還有向這個吹哨者他被打壓然後被對這個社群開源社群要道歉F部可以道歉嗎\n\n09:26.701 --> 09:44.093\n我想先了解事實以後,當然該法辦的就法辦,該管理的就管理,該道歉的就道歉公民院的鄉民跟處長的說法都已經寫給你看了,他就是輕描淡寫說我們沒有尊重這個標示等等,他就是用這個方式來處理啊沒有委員會找美國律師處理,不是我處理\n\n09:50.269 --> 10:10.479\n道歉這麼困難嗎道歉沒有很困難該道歉就道歉但是問題我們把事情了解得更清楚以後需要道歉的我們就道歉需要改善的我們就馬上改善這是重要的事情我想如果這整個過程其實該究責誰就究責誰不要說對那個很專業很認真的\n\n10:17.262 --> 10:33.138\n這個吹哨子他也有貢獻過啊,結果你們回頭打壓他啊封鎖他,然後封鎖他跟他的公司使用但是那個部分馬上,我們知道以後馬上要求公然鏈就馬上打開了,不能這樣子所以部長你是知道這件事情的啦\n\n10:34.479 --> 10:57.517\n所以我們如果確定了解了以後該處罰就處罰該做處理就處理當然該道歉就道歉我聽到你今天的這個詢問我也覺得你也懂這件事情啦學金委員放心啦我們這個結論是非常重視而且該怎麼做就怎麼做這個跟抄襲入門沒有兩樣\n\n10:58.698 --> 11:11.971\n對於那個如果說在國際上丟臉有意見或者有提出一些不同的看法的話我覺得都應該要尊重這不是看法你就是原始沒有標註出處嘛你在竊取人家的智慧成果嘛這個部分其實是有\n\n11:16.895 --> 11:20.016\n其實是我們的資訊室有團隊然後找美國的律師去馬上第一時間去了解怎麼做你是吹哨者講了以後你們一邊說你告訴我有做一方面打壓他嘛就封鎖他嘛你們就做事這個從事院把他封鎖掉了我們衛福部絕對不會去打壓任何一個提供你發包你出錢你要監督\n\n11:40.745 --> 12:08.642\n那是工研院個人的行為但是我們必須督導你出的錢五億多你出的錢你發包單將來你要怎麼看待這個發包單會有分兩種情況一種是他們工研院本身自己的事情一種是跟我們合約的部分如果有合約的部分有違法有違反規定工研院我另外會去質詢我今天要知道是衛福部的態度衛福部發包單位的態度完全依法辦理而且如果有\n\n12:10.603 --> 12:38.476\n這個譬如說接了一個因為是廠商你江梅要把他黑名單列黑名單跟他吹哨子列黑名單以後他提出的機會你要好好看我想這個我依照我們過去多年的經驗當然如果有比較不好的記錄有前科嘛不好的記錄那當然就是未來在合作上面希望你記得這是做人基本原則做事管理的基本原則那我們基本上說實在衛福部所有的我們都是委員會制的說實在我們也沒有多今天他就發現了\n\n12:39.516 --> 12:56.421\n那這個一定會給委員一個很大的參考先不要推給公園院公園院我自然會去質詢政府部的責任我等你的道歉要公開道歉這個臉丟到國外去了謝謝部長我們依法辦理而且會跟國際間做好最好的溝通請委員放心謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.657,"end":7.677,"text":"來 鄧部長請"},{"start":15.643,"end":38.399,"text":"我今天有兩個重要議題要跟您討論分別就是工研院FHIR專案涉及抄襲且濫權封殺吹哨者那第二個議題就是兒童早療的一個服務標準的檢討部長這個電腦軟體程式雖然不是我們兩個的專業可是我相信很多事情做事的原則是一樣的"},{"start":40.041,"end":57.223,"text":"開放原始碼的這個目的就是要運用眾人的智慧他透過一個自由資訊的交換然後加速跟幫助這個開發的這個速度那每一個人都可以貢獻他新的想法來改善這個技術和大家共同推動這個科技的發展"},{"start":58.024,"end":75.555,"text":"那很重要的社群之間要彼此尊重別人的智慧成果這是最起碼最基本的標準結果呢部長衛福部有一個專案叫做台灣醫療資訊標準大平台因為這個專案執行的單位叫做公研院他剽竊"},{"start":78.785,"end":99.034,"text":"剽竊美國醫療醫療照護研究及品質機構我們叫做AHRQ所開發的程式然後有看不下去的人他去揭發吹哨揭發但是第一時間他被工研院在軟體社群拉黑名單禁止他跟他的公司使用工研院專案內容"},{"start":101.109,"end":116.634,"text":"出了這件這麼大的事情衛福部資訊處處長李建章卻說沒有違法公園院沒有標註出處確實有不尊重著作權的嫌疑竟然是如此的輕描淡寫部長我講完再請你回答謝謝"},{"start":119.856,"end":134.454,"text":"公園院執行專案的包括剽竊城市碼以及後續種種不當的行為不但沒有遵守城市圈的基本倫理那也已經違法了那我想知道外府部是在幫公園院闖的禍洗地嗎"},{"start":137.578,"end":157.366,"text":"那還是這位處長明明知道說公園院闖了這麼大的禍幹了這麼離譜的事情卻一再袒護還企圖淡化這個爭議竟然說沒有違法那部長你要不要代表這個衛福部對HRQ還有對被打壓的吹哨者對整個社群道歉你不覺得這件事丟了台灣的臉嗎"},{"start":160.641,"end":170.747,"text":"那麻煩你回答謝謝謝謝委員的關心我想這個事情我們非常重視而且因為這個那個牽涉到那個"},{"start":172.825,"end":189.755,"text":"可以說是智慧財產錢,以及說在大家合作,各國在合作共同在發展我先講到說您對這件事基本看法,然後你要不要代表衛福部跟這個所有受害者道歉好,我想這個部分經過我們的調查,我們的資訊室理事處長也是,或者說是國內"},{"start":199.643,"end":219.818,"text":"在醫療軟體開發裡面的...我不在談專業,我在談倫理所以我們當然一切都是一定去查它有沒有合法規、合倫理這是我們堅定的,一定要去...好,你有原則,我瞭解工人鏈現在期間所使用的工具是美國衛福部轄下機構所開發之開源軟體"},{"start":223.12,"end":228.044,"text":"全球都可以自由下載,但是的確他沒有證明是,這個是事實我的質詢一定有憑有據的,我現在是要說,你有去看嗎?你去看衛福部臉書的那個說明文的裡面跟分享出去文章的下面的留言網友全部在罵衛福部擺爛,我現在只是揭露一小部分讓你看,我就不讀了"},{"start":246.678,"end":254.745,"text":"那這件事是很嚴重的我覺得這件事跟論文抄襲是同等級的事情你不是原創沒有關係啊但是你去使用開放原始碼的程式碼你就要標註標註AHRQ的版權資訊但是公園不但隱瞞事實"},{"start":265.515,"end":276.26,"text":"打壓吹哨者這個專案的前身其實是很多開放原始碼的社群先進共同努力的這個吹哨者也是其中的一員但是他卻面對回頭的打擊那以後誰還敢幫政府做事呢"},{"start":281.323,"end":300.939,"text":"那面對這樣的這個打壓我不要說這還是國家計劃等於公園院的做法是拿納稅人的錢來掩護本來他該做沒有做的事情而且還藉此換取他不實在不正當的一個成就表現那衛夫一直迴避這個爭議不正視不道歉那出現這麼離譜的事部長你要怎麼處理我想知道你要怎麼處理"},{"start":309.326,"end":318.214,"text":"我們一定誠懇的檢討,然後一定要合法規,如果有任何違反法規我們絕不負擔。是衛福部檢討?調查還是你交付給誰來調查?來怎麼樣做就怎麼樣做,我想這個部分絕對沒有容許有空間。是衛福部親自調查嗎?"},{"start":327.042,"end":344.646,"text":"這個部分我想請李建昌處長他已經這段時間做了很多事情可不可以簡單的報告一下我要強調李處長他也是包庇的其中之一不是我想你是計畫發包單位嘛我要求衛福部自己去調查是我們已經請美國律師還有國內專家都已經完成這樣初步的調查跟委員講一下美國律師的專業調查報告"},{"start":351.767,"end":365.586,"text":"第一個他說這個東西是引用公用的軟體他不是所謂的商業軟體或者是一個論文美國希望大家來用所以我們去用它第二個他沒有做好的是標註沒有做好這件事情在開源的軟體裡面都"},{"start":367.048,"end":386.467,"text":"本來就是大家可以用人家有這個雅量啊我們的公開資訊也要這樣現在重點是沒有標註嘛對 沒有標註這個事情在Airpods 2.0的第六章有清楚的公告做四件事情我們四件事情完全做第一件 三十日之內修正 完全修正第二 可做可不做就是我們通知美國HRQ"},{"start":387.148,"end":399.307,"text":"我們已經通知美國HRQ了第三這不涉商業所以沒有任何的這個法律的糾紛處長請你講話緩和一點你今天有問題很大那麼這個工研院把專案直接從開源社群關掉當作什麼事都沒有發生"},{"start":403.367,"end":418.02,"text":"這個封鎖的部分我們第一時間發現就叫他打開第二個他封鎖的東西不是我們合約內要交付的事情所以我們就這個也要請工研院來嚴正的面對這個問題跟社群解釋請問你什麼時候打開你已經打開了嗎早就打開了這個第一時間我們發現我們就打開了"},{"start":422.486,"end":433.973,"text":"部長我現在要說的 你要趕快徹查你看這一路過程 你聽嘛 他也不敢否認嘛是不是好好審視這個 你要想想看 徹查然後思考終止契約"},{"start":435.1,"end":439.944,"text":"好 我們一切依法 依法嚴格辦理你這個公務員這個很離譜的那個聲明啦非常這個 而且會對於這個吹哨者打壓 這個是最嚴重的事吹哨者打壓 你要提出說明跟道歉你不但是打壓他 把他封鎖 不讓他使用"},{"start":456.394,"end":485.08,"text":"我們去查明這整個情況如果有真的不應該打壓的那當然是絕對絕對要嚴格的來處理部長我要求的下面有幾項今天如果不完整我助理會把資訊給你我要求衛福部針對下一列事項公開跟國人說明而且要這個報告交到衛環委員會來第一個衛福部內部對於廠商的約束力跟執行成果驗證方式是什麼是不是隱當"},{"start":486.36,"end":492.342,"text":"第二個抄襲的成果攸關兩個標案大家可以媒體可以注意一個是4億一個是1億多高達5億多請問實質交付的項目是什麼第三出現這麼離譜的爭議這個計劃執行單位的運作及經費的合理性他還追加預算勒是否允當你要不要重新檢視部長讓我講完我要求這些東西你看到三點我還有衛福部是否要給予該單位"},{"start":515.271,"end":536.017,"text":"符合比例的處罰 例如終止契約台大校長當年涉及這個參與這個論文的抄襲結果他下台了轟轟烈烈吵了一段時間然後他下台了另外衛福部是否應該去了解該單位這樣行徑是否已經存在一段時間那你未來發包"},{"start":537.915,"end":565.848,"text":"你要不要特別注意什麼我希望有這份報告出來啊好沒問題那個委員所關心的也是我們會很重視的不是你要承諾我你要做這件事情啊我承諾你針對這幾個問題我們好好的來調查要提出報告那你今天大家都知道是事實你要不要先向這個HRQ還有向這個吹哨者他被打壓然後被對這個社群開源社群要道歉F部可以道歉嗎"},{"start":566.701,"end":584.093,"text":"我想先了解事實以後,當然該法辦的就法辦,該管理的就管理,該道歉的就道歉公民院的鄉民跟處長的說法都已經寫給你看了,他就是輕描淡寫說我們沒有尊重這個標示等等,他就是用這個方式來處理啊沒有委員會找美國律師處理,不是我處理"},{"start":590.269,"end":610.479,"text":"道歉這麼困難嗎道歉沒有很困難 該道歉就道歉但是問題我們把事情了解得更清楚以後需要道歉的我們就道歉 需要改善的我們就馬上改善這是重要的事情我想如果這整個過程其實該究責誰就究責誰不要說對那個很專業很認真的"},{"start":617.262,"end":633.138,"text":"這個吹哨子他也有貢獻過啊,結果你們回頭打壓他啊封鎖他,然後封鎖他跟他的公司使用但是那個部分馬上,我們知道以後馬上要求公然鏈就馬上打開了,不能這樣子所以部長你是知道這件事情的啦"},{"start":634.479,"end":657.517,"text":"所以我們如果確定了解了以後 該處罰就處罰 該做處理就處理當然該道歉就道歉我聽到你今天的這個詢問 我也覺得你也懂這件事情啦學金委員放心啦 我們這個結論是非常重視 而且該怎麼做就怎麼做這個跟抄襲入門沒有兩樣"},{"start":658.698,"end":671.971,"text":"對於那個如果說在國際上丟臉有意見或者有提出一些不同的看法的話我覺得都應該要尊重這不是看法你就是原始沒有標註出處嘛你在竊取人家的智慧成果嘛這個部分其實是有"},{"start":676.895,"end":680.016,"text":"其實是我們的資訊室有團隊然後找美國的律師去馬上第一時間去了解怎麼做你是吹哨者講了以後你們一邊說你告訴我有做一方面打壓他嘛就封鎖他嘛你們就做事這個從事院把他封鎖掉了我們衛福部絕對不會去打壓任何一個提供你發包你出錢你要監督"},{"start":700.745,"end":728.642,"text":"那是工研院個人的行為但是我們必須督導你出的錢五億多你出的錢你發包單將來你要怎麼看待這個發包單會有分兩種情況一種是他們工研院本身自己的事情一種是跟我們合約的部分如果有合約的部分有違法有違反規定工研院我另外會去質詢我今天要知道是衛福部的態度衛福部發包單位的態度完全依法辦理而且如果有"},{"start":730.603,"end":758.476,"text":"這個譬如說接了一個因為是廠商你江梅要把他黑名單列黑名單跟他吹哨子列黑名單以後他提出的機會你要好好看我想這個我依照我們過去多年的經驗當然如果有比較不好的記錄有前科嘛不好的記錄那當然就是未來在合作上面希望你記得這是做人基本原則做事管理的基本原則那我們基本上說實在衛福部所有的我們都是委員會制的說實在我們也沒有多今天他就發現了"},{"start":759.516,"end":776.421,"text":"那這個一定會給委員一個很大的參考先不要推給公園院 公園院我自然會去質詢政府部的責任 我等你的道歉要公開道歉 這個臉丟到國外去了謝謝部長我們依法辦理 而且會跟國際間做好最好的溝通請委員放心謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時17分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早安。我今天有兩個重要的議題要跟你討論，分別是工研院FHIR專案涉及抄襲且濫權封殺吹哨者，第二個議題就是兒童早期療育服務標準的檢討。","部長，電腦軟體程式雖然不是我們兩個的專業，可是我相信很多事情做事的原則是一樣的，開放原始碼的目的就是要運用眾人的智慧，透過自由資訊的交換，加速及幫助開發的速度，每一個人都可以貢獻新的想法來改善技術，和大家共同推動科技的發展。很重要的是，社群之間要彼此尊重別人的智慧成果，這是最起碼、最基本的標準，結果衛福部有一個專案叫做「臺灣醫療資訊標準大平台」，這個專案執行的單位工研院剽竊美國醫療照護研究及品質機構AHRQ所開發的程式碼，有看不下去的人吹哨揭發，但是第一時間他被工研院在軟體社群拉黑名單、禁止他與他的公司使用工研院專案內容。出了這件這麼大的事情，衛福部資訊處處長李建璋卻說「沒有違法」、「工研院沒有標註出處，確實有不尊重著作權嫌疑」，竟然是如此地輕描淡寫！部長，我說完之後再請你回答。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：工研院執行這個專案的剽竊程式碼及後續種種不當的行為，不但沒有遵守程式圈的基本倫理，也已經違法了，我想知道衛福部是在幫工研院闖的禍洗地嗎？還是這位處長明明知道工研院闖了這麼大的禍、幹了這麼離譜的事情卻一再袒護，還企圖淡化爭議，竟然說沒有違法？部長要不要代表衛福部對AHRQ、對被打壓的吹哨者、對整個社群道歉？你不覺得這件事丟了臺灣的臉嗎？部長，麻煩你回答，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心。我想這個事情我們非常重視，而且牽涉到智慧財產權，以及各國合作共同發展……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，事實已經出來了，我先請教您對這件事的基本看法，您要不要代表衛福部跟所有受害者道歉？"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個部分經過我們的調查，我們資訊處李處長可以說是國內在醫療軟體開發裡面的……"],["陳委員昭姿：我不是在談專業，我在談倫理！"],["邱部長泰源：對，我們當然一定會去查它有沒有合法規、合倫理，這是我們堅定的立場，一定要去……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你有原則，我了解。"],["邱部長泰源：工研院在這期間所使用的工具是美國衛福部轄下機構所開發之開源軟體……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個我知道，剛才我就說了！"],["邱部長泰源：全球都可以自由下載，但是的確它沒有註明出處……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是事實，我的質詢一定是有憑有據的。部長，我現在是問你是否有去看衛福部臉書的說明文和文章分享出去後下面的留言，網友全部都在罵衛福部擺爛，我現在只是節錄一小部分而已，內容我就不讀了，這件事情是很嚴重的，與論文抄襲是同等級的事情，不是原創沒關係，使用開放原始碼的程式碼就要標註AHRQ的版權資訊。但工研院不但隱瞞事實，還打壓吹哨者，這個專案的前身其實是很多開放原始碼社群的先進共同努力的，這個吹哨者也是其中的一員，但是他卻面對回頭的打擊，以後誰還敢幫政府做事呢？更不要說這還是國家計畫，工研院的作法等於是拿納稅人的錢來掩護本來它該做卻沒有做的事情，而且還藉此換取它不實、不正當的成就、表現，衛福部一直迴避這個爭議，不正視、不道歉，出現這麼離譜的事，部長，你要怎麼處理？我想知道你要怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定誠懇的檢討，然後一定要合法規，如果有任何違反法規情事，我們絕不護短，該怎麼樣做就怎麼樣做……"],["陳委員昭姿：衛福部要檢討，而調查是交付給誰來調查？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分絕對沒有任何容許的空間。"],["陳委員昭姿：是衛福部親自調查嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我請李建璋處長簡單報告一下，因為這段期間他已經做了很多事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要強調的是，李處長也是包庇者的其中一員……"],["李處長建璋：不是！不是！我想……"],["陳委員昭姿：你是計畫發包單位，我要求衛福部自己去調查，要照契約去執行……"],["李處長建璋：是，我們已經請美國律師還有國內專家了，都已經完成初步的調查，跟委員講一下美國律師的專業調查報告，第一個，他說這個東西是引用公用的軟體，不是所謂的商業軟體或者是所謂的論文，美國希望大家來用，所以我們去用它；第二個，它沒有做好的是標註沒有做好，這件事情在開源的軟體……"],["陳委員昭姿：處長說得真是輕鬆啊！本來就是大家可以用，人家有這個雅量，我們的公開資訊也要這樣，但現在重點是沒有標註，它是直接剽竊了。"],["李處長建璋：對，沒有標註這個事情在Apache 2.0第六章有清楚的公告要做四件事情，我們四件事情完全做了，第一，30日之內修正，已完全修正了；第二，這個可做可不做，就是我們已經通知美國AHRQ了；第三，這不涉商業，所以沒有任何法律的糾紛……"],["陳委員昭姿：處長，請你講話緩和一點，你現在問題很大，工研院把專案直接從開源社群關掉，當作什麼事都沒有發生，它後續做了很多壞事……"],["李處長建璋：關於封鎖的部分，我們第一時間發現後就叫它打開；第二個，它封鎖的東西，不是我們合約內要交付的事情，所以我們也要請工研院嚴正的面對這個問題並跟社群解釋。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問你什麼時候叫它打開？已經打開了嗎？"],["李處長建璋：早就打開了，第一時間我們發現後就要求打開了。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你趕快徹查，你看這過程一路下來，它也不敢否認嘛！所以是不是應好好審視並予以徹查，然後思考終止契約？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一切依法嚴格辦理。"],["陳委員昭姿：工研院這是一個很離譜的聲明……"],["邱部長泰源：如果有需要調整，會馬上、立即處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：對吹哨者打壓，這是最嚴重的事，所以對吹哨者打壓一事，你要提出說明跟道歉，而且不但是打壓他，還把他封鎖，不讓他使用。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會去查這整個情況，如果真的有不應該打壓的，當然、絕對要嚴格來處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：他也沒有否定啊！部長，我要求的有下面幾項，今天如果有提供不完整的，我的助理會把完整資訊給你。總之，我要求衛福部針對下列事項公開跟國人說明，而且這個報告要交到衛環委員會來，第一個，衛福部內部對於廠商約束力跟執行成果驗證方式是什麼？是否允當？第二個，抄襲的成果攸關兩個標案，一個4億，一個一億多的經費，高達五億多，請問實質交付項目是什麼？第三個，出現這樣離譜的爭議，這個計畫執行單位的運作以及經費的合理性（例如追加預算等）是否允當？衛福部應重新檢視。第四個，衛福部是否要給予該單位符合比例的處罰，例如終止契約？部長不要忘記了，臺大校長當年涉及參與論文的抄襲，結果他下臺了，即轟轟烈烈吵了一段時間，然後他下臺了。第五個，衛福部是否應該去了解該單位這樣的行徑，是否已經存在一段時間？所以你未來在發包上要特別注意什麼呢？我希望有這份報告提出來。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，委員所關心的也是我們非常重視的。"],["陳委員昭姿：你要承諾我會做這些事情啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我承諾你針對這幾個問題，我們會好好來調查、了解，並提出報告。"],["陳委員昭姿：今天大家都知道是事實了，你要不要向AHRQ、被打壓的吹哨者以及開源社群道歉？衛福部可以道歉嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想先了解事實以後，當然該法辦的就法辦、該管理的就管理、該道歉的就道歉。"],["陳委員昭姿：工研院的聲明跟處長的說法都已經寫給你看了，它就只是輕描淡寫表示他們沒有尊重相關的標註等等，就是用這個方式來處理。"],["李處長建璋：我們有個委員會找美國律師處理，不是我處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，道歉有這麼困難嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：道歉沒有很困難，該道歉就道歉，但是問題我們把事情了解得更清楚以後，需要道歉的我們就道歉，需要需要改善的我們就馬上改善，這才是重要的事情，我想這整個過程，其實該究責誰就究責誰，不要對那些很專業、很認真的單位或是人員……"],["陳委員昭姿：吹哨者他也有貢獻過，結果你們回頭打壓他，包括封鎖他跟他的公司使用。"],["邱部長泰源：那個部分我們知道以後就要求工研院馬上將其打開了。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以部長是知道這件事情的！"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們確定、了解了以後，該處罰就處罰，該做處理就處理，當然該道歉就道歉。"],["陳委員昭姿：聽了你今天的答詢，我覺得你也懂這件事情，我們今天……"],["邱部長泰源：請委員放心，我們絕對非常重視，而且該怎麼做就怎麼做……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個跟抄襲論文沒有兩樣喔！這在國際上是丟臉的喔！"],["邱部長泰源：如果有意見或者有提出一些不同的看法，我覺得都應該要尊重。"],["陳委員昭姿：這不是看法，就是原始沒有標註出處，這是竊取人家的智慧成果。"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我們的資訊處有團隊，然後也找美國的律師馬上、第一時間去了解看看要怎麼做。"],["陳委員昭姿：是吹哨者講了以後，一方面你告訴我有去做；另一方面則是打壓他，就是封鎖他，而你們就坐視工研院將其封鎖掉。"],["邱部長泰源：我們衛福部絕對不會去打壓任何一個提供意見的人。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是你發包、你出錢的，你要監督它計畫的執行。"],["邱部長泰源：那是工研院個人的行為，但是我們必須督導。"],["陳委員昭姿：你出的錢有五億多，是你出的錢、是你發包的，將來你要怎麼看待這個被發包的單位？"],["邱部長泰源：這有分兩種情況，一種是他們工研院本身、自己的事情；一種是跟我們合約的部分，如果合約的部分有違法、有違反規定，我當然要嚴加處罰。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我跟你說，工研院的部分，我會另外去質詢，我今天要知道的是衛福部、發包單位的態度。"],["邱部長泰源：而工研院個人的部分，我們完全是依法辦理，而且譬如說接了一個廠商……"],["陳委員昭姿：你將來要不要把它列為黑名單？列為黑名單以後，它提出的計畫你要好好看一看。"],["邱部長泰源：我會依照我們過去多年的經驗，當然如果有比較不好的紀錄，當然未來在合作上面，我們會更加的小心。"],["陳委員昭姿：希望你記得這是做人、做事以及管理的基本原則。"],["邱部長泰源：基本上，衛福部所有的標案等等，我們都是採委員會制，說實在的，我們完全也都沒有……"],["陳委員昭姿：今天它就被人家發現了。"],["邱部長泰源：這個一定會給委員會一個很大的參考。"],["陳委員昭姿：先不要推給工研院，因為我自然會去質詢工研院。至於衛福部的責任，我就等你的公開道歉，這個臉丟到國外去了！謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一切依法辦理，而且會跟國際間做最好的溝通，請委員放心。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接續請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}}