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{\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 705.239, \"end\": 705.399, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 705.399, \"end\": 705.439, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 705.439, \"end\": 706.16, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 706.16, \"end\": 706.18, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,055 --> 00:00:14,130\n謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長還有我們國發會的高副主委好請郭部長跟高副主委\n\n2\n00:00:21,195 --> 00:00:46,261\n委員長部長好因為美國現在要針對那個貿易擴張法第232條的國安調查進行一些部分那這裡面其實很大一部分其實跟半導體還有我們的半導體製造設備還有一些衍生產品有關這跟台灣大概都有很大的關係那美方關切的重點大概整理起來大概是這五項這五項包括說各種的型號還有\n\n3\n00:00:47,161 --> 00:01:16,241\n節電晶片的需求預估那是不是他們美國國內市場能夠滿足那美國對外國的晶圓廠跟蜂巢市場的依賴情況還有關鍵零組件是不是只能夠從海外取得那第四個是中國等國是否透過補貼或產能過程對美國產業這樣不公平競爭第五個部分是針對外國如果出口限制的時候那是否會對美國供應造成的影響所以這幾個裡面的時候我發現跟台灣都非常的有相關那我記得我之前針對那個美國要提高\n\n4\n00:01:17,041 --> 00:01:44,237\n對人關稅的時候我記得你那時候覺得台灣的高科技產業尤其半導體產業其實有很強的一個成本轉嫁的一個能力的所以你覺得對台灣的產業影響不太大是這樣的情況嗎報告委員我想在這個半導體來講這個可以區分有兩大塊一大塊就是先進製程另外一個是比較這個成熟製程台灣在不管先進製程也好成熟製程也好\n\n5\n00:01:45,057 --> 00:02:02,366\n都具有高度的競爭力也就是說我們同樣在這個製程裡面我們的良率是相對我們競爭率是非常高的但是我們現在很怕的就是我們在成熟製程的時候可能會面對到這個有些國家他給予這個補助出國補助\n\n6\n00:02:04,167 --> 00:02:31,579\n那这个对我们来讲对我们的国内业者就相当的不利所以这一部分美国他也根据这样子他会去调查他会去调查所以我们都鼓励国内的业者要把他目前碰到的这个状况在这232上面就具体的把这个状况披露给让美国的这个政府了解那么以共我们在对美谈判的时候作为一个参考\n\n7\n00:02:32,455 --> 00:02:56,195\n那我相信在這一部分美國他們也會很清楚那我們也請這個美國的客戶六大科技客戶針對台灣在這個先進製程上面的優勢那這些因為這六大客戶都是台灣台積電的客戶所以請他們也在幫美國政府跟美國政府做溝通所以透過美國的企業去做政府的遊說\n\n8\n00:02:57,256 --> 00:03:03,820\n是這個意思嗎這是一部分因為時間有限我想說你這樣講我就沒有時間了那因為我想講說針對這個232的一個國安調查的時候那我們政府這邊有沒有什麼更積極的一個作為有沒有具體\n\n9\n00:03:12,950 --> 00:03:29,379\n我想我們充分地反映這個實際的狀況讓談判小組才會明白OK這只能夠充分地反映實際狀況那我今天我要特別講一個情況就是因為目前我看起來台灣在對美談判過程當中的時候我們好像就是不斷地讓\n\n10\n00:03:30,619 --> 00:03:47,314\n好像沒有太多的一個談判的籌碼我想我特別舉一個例子就是針對黃仁勳他最近除了說要投資5000億在美國之外他也跑了大陸也跑了日本很積極他在做一個全球的佈局因為這樣的狀態才會有談判的籌碼我在想說我們政府的時候我們有這麼好的一個\n\n11\n00:03:54,020 --> 00:04:20,955\n半導體的一個產業鏈那我們是不是有更好的一個談判籌碼的時候而不是只壓在一個地方當我們如果說完全市場只壓在美國這個市場當中的時候我們會沒有談判籌碼所以我在想針對這個部分的時候我想說經濟部這邊是不是有想好怎麼樣的方式的時候能夠讓台灣能夠把大陸市場同樣拉進來因為這八年我們對大陸這邊的狀態大陸\n\n12\n00:04:23,676 --> 00:04:35,040\n變成不是我們的一個談判的籌碼這是我們擔心的點針對這個部分的時候部長這邊有沒有什麼比較好的一個做法要怎麼樣去把台灣增加其他的一個國際的一個談判籌碼去對美國\n\n13\n00:04:39,384 --> 00:05:01,610\n因為這個是牽扯到你的客戶在哪裡但是先進製程的客戶通通在美國所以把大陸拉進來沒有用啊大陸他沒有那個先進通通在美國這個狀態的時候是因為受到美國的一個禁運的一個關係所以全世界並不是只有美國有高科技的一個晶片需求喔\n\n14\n00:05:02,791 --> 00:05:23,790\n報告委員是這樣子我們台積電沒有自己的產品台積電是替別人生產芯片代工的所以他的客戶就是讓他代工的客戶先進製程通通是美國的廠商美國的六大科技廠商讓台積電來代工中國大陸他也沒有辦法\n\n15\n00:05:24,752 --> 00:05:36,251\n所以你意思說如果說大陸他們也有先進製程的需求台積電也可以接嗎你的意思是這樣子嗎台積電在美國台積電在中國也有廠啊可是它不是先進製程啊部長\n\n16\n00:05:37,458 --> 00:06:01,754\n南京廠只有16奈米跟28奈米啊其實沒有先進製程啊所以你這樣講的說法是我說媚於整個目前整個一個世界市場的一個需求啦那我這邊我想在這邊就是我知道你想講的部分很多因為你整個算業界的人那如果說你要能夠我們另外再找時間再來談這個部分因為全世界高階製程的需求不是只有在美國\n\n17\n00:06:02,955 --> 00:06:31,343\n不是只有這六大企業要那我想這邊特別講一個狀態是因為川普最近又丟了一個東西出來叫做一個針對所謂的非關稅的貿易障礙那他特別提到的一個情況是所謂的一個一個骯髒的一個手段那這裡面其實有八項裡面有幾項是跟經濟部有關部長你知不知道\n\n18\n00:06:33,157 --> 00:06:46,115\n我們如果跟我們的這個有關的部門我想我們的部門應該會搜尋到這些我簡單講一下他這川普最新丟出來的這八項當中的時候大概出口補貼這邊跟經濟部這邊有關\n\n19\n00:06:49,119 --> 00:06:58,784\n然後技術門檻的部分有然後智慧產權有其他的部分就農業部跟財政部相對多那我要特別講的一個情況是因為我們880億的一個相關的一個計畫當中的時候410億是經濟部的可是工業部分的700億都是經濟部在主導那這裡面的時候呢包括了有一些外銷貸款的優惠加碼的部分\n\n20\n00:07:14,893 --> 00:07:40,186\n中小微企業的一個貸款的加碼的部分是不是都會踩到川普他這邊所謂的一個非關稅的一個作弊黑招的一個紅線想請問一下部長這個我們評估啦大概評估在目前的這個狀況之下應該不是跟他應該是不會抵觸啦因為我們是補貼利息啦不是不是把這個錢給他不是貸款\n\n21\n00:07:42,127 --> 00:08:01,053\n所以你覺得說我們目前做的所有的補貼相關的措施然後包括了比方說我們對於整個技術的一個轉型的一個補助你覺得都不會踩到這個線技術轉型就是表示他不再做從來的這個直接出國的產品了\n\n22\n00:08:01,853 --> 00:08:21,875\n可是因為我們這個所謂的輔助轉協都是跟美國出口有關的部分所以他在當川普他在提出了一個所謂的作弊黑招的時候那這裡面的時候那我們的補貼是不是都會踩到這紅線我想這邊我們要特別去加以研究一下好不好\n\n23\n00:08:22,535 --> 00:08:49,581\n那我最後一個部分我特別提到一個點就是我們台灣對於所謂洗產地這個問題就是經濟部定義這邊的時候就是我們如果說對於整個家用產品有一個轉型的產品的一個轉型跟價值35%的時候基本上就算MIT的產品對不對我們經濟部是這樣的定義嗎是我們本來就有一個定義存在那美國對於大陸製造的\n\n24\n00:08:51,066 --> 00:08:56,059\n產品他們的定義是怎麼樣是只要原物料35%就算是大陸製造是這樣子嗎不是\n\n25\n00:08:57,765 --> 00:09:23,064\n只要他的這個東西超過這樣的一個比例就算是中國製造超過什麼樣的比例35%原物料超過35%就算那這邊就會出現一個狀態在台灣這邊的時候有很多其實是原物料從大陸來在台灣加工製造也滿足我們35%的附加價值可是可能跟美國這邊他們講35%的原物料會產生衝突針對這個部分的時候我們經濟部有沒有什麼更積極的\n\n26\n00:09:28,608 --> 00:09:38,993\n去協助企業避免我們會協助業者跟美國的客戶溝通也會向美國的海關申請原產地的預審原產地預審來解決這個問題\n\n27\n00:09:43,115 --> 00:10:09,429\nOK那針對這部分我們台灣的一個MIT的一個所謂的定義跟標準跟美國這邊是不是能夠有更一致的一個狀態讓企業不會無所遵循這個部分我們會對所有的業者在4月24號這個下午7點我們會請這個美國的律師針對大家所關注的這個問題來做一些說明跟解釋\n\n28\n00:10:10,049 --> 00:10:34,425\n我想這個部分企業都很關心我們也希望經濟部其實能夠有更好的一個投入那我特別要講到一個點就是說針對台灣高基金產業雖然部長一直覺得台灣這部分其實是有成本轉嫁的一個能力可是我們覺得在跟美國談判當中的時候我們市場越多元越有談判的一個籌碼就像美國的現在對日本施壓的時候\n\n29\n00:10:36,306 --> 00:11:02,642\n日本的一個總理他也直接表示他們不會犧牲掉日本國民的一個利益然後完全對美國讓步那我也希望我們經濟部這邊也不是完全的讓步所以我最後提到一個點就是說我們經濟部之前在跟美國談判的當中的時候有哪些經濟部主張不讓步的一個項目有沒有具體\n\n30\n00:11:04,142 --> 00:11:19,867\n報告委員我想關心國內這個國人的這個健康啦或者國人的生計的這些問題都是經濟部所關切的命題國人健康是衛福部這邊在管我們經濟部這邊有沒有哪些是我們主張不能夠讓步的一個項目經濟部這邊有沒有\n\n31\n00:11:21,007 --> 00:11:46,180\n都認為這個是談判所謂讓步不讓步這是談判的過程的一種方式我們關心的就是國人這些產業的需求跟在從事這個產業的這些國人他們在未來的發展到底是怎麼樣那如果說面臨到巨大的衝擊的時候我們當然會在這個地方跟美方多過溝通跟協調OK好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8055\t14130\t謝謝主席 我想請一下郭部長還有我們國發會的高副主委好 請郭部長跟高副主委\n21195\t46261\t委員長部長好因為美國現在要針對那個貿易擴張法第232條的國安調查進行一些部分那這裡面其實很大一部分其實跟半導體還有我們的半導體製造設備還有一些衍生產品有關這跟台灣大概都有很大的關係那美方關切的重點大概整理起來大概是這五項這五項包括說各種的型號還有\n47161\t76241\t節電晶片的需求預估那是不是他們美國國內市場能夠滿足那美國對外國的晶圓廠跟蜂巢市場的依賴情況還有關鍵零組件是不是只能夠從海外取得那第四個是中國等國是否透過補貼或產能過程對美國產業這樣不公平競爭第五個部分是針對外國如果出口限制的時候那是否會對美國供應造成的影響所以這幾個裡面的時候我發現跟台灣都非常的有相關那我記得我之前針對那個美國要提高\n77041\t104237\t對人關稅的時候我記得你那時候覺得台灣的高科技產業尤其半導體產業其實有很強的一個成本轉嫁的一個能力的所以你覺得對台灣的產業影響不太大是這樣的情況嗎報告委員我想在這個半導體來講這個可以區分有兩大塊一大塊就是先進製程另外一個是比較這個成熟製程台灣在不管先進製程也好成熟製程也好\n105057\t122366\t都具有高度的競爭力也就是說我們同樣在這個製程裡面我們的良率是相對我們競爭率是非常高的但是我們現在很怕的就是我們在成熟製程的時候可能會面對到這個有些國家他給予這個補助出國補助\n124167\t151579\t那这个对我们来讲对我们的国内业者就相当的不利所以这一部分美国他也根据这样子他会去调查他会去调查所以我们都鼓励国内的业者要把他目前碰到的这个状况在这232上面就具体的把这个状况披露给让美国的这个政府了解那么以共我们在对美谈判的时候作为一个参考\n152455\t176195\t那我相信在這一部分美國他們也會很清楚那我們也請這個美國的客戶六大科技客戶針對台灣在這個先進製程上面的優勢那這些因為這六大客戶都是台灣台積電的客戶所以請他們也在幫美國政府跟美國政府做溝通所以透過美國的企業去做政府的遊說\n177256\t183820\t是這個意思嗎這是一部分因為時間有限我想說你這樣講我就沒有時間了那因為我想講說針對這個232的一個國安調查的時候那我們政府這邊有沒有什麼更積極的一個作為有沒有具體\n192950\t209379\t我想我們充分地反映這個實際的狀況讓談判小組才會明白OK 這只能夠充分地反映實際狀況那我今天我要特別講一個情況就是因為目前我看起來台灣在對美談判過程當中的時候我們好像就是不斷地讓\n210619\t227314\t好像沒有太多的一個談判的籌碼我想我特別舉一個例子就是針對黃仁勳他最近除了說要投資5000億在美國之外他也跑了大陸也跑了日本很積極他在做一個全球的佈局因為這樣的狀態才會有談判的籌碼我在想說我們政府的時候我們有這麼好的一個\n234020\t260955\t半導體的一個產業鏈那我們是不是有更好的一個談判籌碼的時候而不是只壓在一個地方當我們如果說完全市場只壓在美國這個市場當中的時候我們會沒有談判籌碼所以我在想針對這個部分的時候我想說經濟部這邊是不是有想好怎麼樣的方式的時候能夠讓台灣能夠把大陸市場同樣拉進來因為這八年我們對大陸這邊的狀態大陸\n263676\t275040\t變成不是我們的一個談判的籌碼這是我們擔心的點針對這個部分的時候部長這邊有沒有什麼比較好的一個做法要怎麼樣去把台灣增加其他的一個國際的一個談判籌碼去對美國\n279384\t301610\t因為這個是牽扯到你的客戶在哪裡但是先進製程的客戶通通在美國所以把大陸拉進來沒有用啊大陸他沒有那個先進通通在美國這個狀態的時候是因為受到美國的一個禁運的一個關係所以全世界並不是只有美國有高科技的一個晶片需求喔\n302791\t323790\t報告委員是這樣子我們台積電沒有自己的產品台積電是替別人生產芯片代工的所以他的客戶就是讓他代工的客戶先進製程通通是美國的廠商美國的六大科技廠商讓台積電來代工中國大陸他也沒有辦法\n324752\t336251\t所以你意思說如果說大陸他們也有先進製程的需求台積電也可以接嗎 你的意思是這樣子嗎台積電在美國 台積電在中國也有廠啊可是它不是先進製程啊 部長\n337458\t361754\t南京廠只有16奈米跟28奈米啊其實沒有先進製程啊所以你這樣講的說法是我說媚於整個目前整個一個世界市場的一個需求啦那我這邊我想在這邊就是我知道你想講的部分很多因為你整個算業界的人那如果說你要能夠我們另外再找時間再來談這個部分因為全世界高階製程的需求不是只有在美國\n362955\t391343\t不是只有這六大企業要那我想這邊特別講一個狀態是因為川普最近又丟了一個東西出來叫做一個針對所謂的非關稅的貿易障礙那他特別提到的一個情況是所謂的一個一個骯髒的一個手段那這裡面其實有八項裡面有幾項是跟經濟部有關部長你知不知道\n393157\t406115\t我們如果跟我們的這個有關的部門我想我們的部門應該會搜尋到這些我簡單講一下他這川普最新丟出來的這八項當中的時候大概出口補貼這邊跟經濟部這邊有關\n409119\t418784\t然後技術門檻的部分有然後智慧產權有其他的部分就農業部跟財政部相對多那我要特別講的一個情況是因為我們880億的一個相關的一個計畫當中的時候410億是經濟部的可是工業部分的700億都是經濟部在主導那這裡面的時候呢包括了有一些外銷貸款的優惠加碼的部分\n434893\t460186\t中小微企業的一個貸款的加碼的部分是不是都會踩到川普他這邊所謂的一個非關稅的一個作弊黑招的一個紅線想請問一下部長這個我們評估啦大概評估在目前的這個狀況之下應該不是跟他應該是不會抵觸啦因為我們是補貼利息啦不是不是把這個錢給他不是貸款\n462127\t481053\t所以你覺得說我們目前做的所有的補貼相關的措施然後包括了比方說我們對於整個技術的一個轉型的一個補助你覺得都不會踩到這個線技術轉型就是表示他不再做從來的這個直接出國的產品了\n481853\t501875\t可是因為我們這個所謂的輔助轉協都是跟美國出口有關的部分所以他在當川普他在提出了一個所謂的作弊黑招的時候那這裡面的時候那我們的補貼是不是都會踩到這紅線我想這邊我們要特別去加以研究一下好不好\n502535\t529581\t那我最後一個部分我特別提到一個點就是我們台灣對於所謂洗產地這個問題就是經濟部定義這邊的時候就是我們如果說對於整個家用產品有一個轉型的產品的一個轉型跟價值35%的時候基本上就算MIT的產品對不對我們經濟部是這樣的定義嗎是我們本來就有一個定義存在那美國對於大陸製造的\n531066\t536059\t產品 他們的定義是怎麼樣是只要原物料35%就算是大陸製造是這樣子嗎不是\n537765\t563064\t只要他的這個東西超過這樣的一個比例就算是中國製造超過什麼樣的比例 35%原物料超過35%就算那這邊就會出現一個狀態在台灣這邊的時候有很多其實是原物料從大陸來在台灣加工製造也滿足我們35%的附加價值可是可能跟美國這邊他們講35%的原物料會產生衝突針對這個部分的時候我們經濟部有沒有什麼更積極的\n568608\t578993\t去協助企業避免我們會協助業者跟美國的客戶溝通也會向美國的海關申請原產地的預審原產地預審來解決這個問題\n583115\t609429\tOK那針對這部分我們台灣的一個MIT的一個所謂的定義跟標準跟美國這邊是不是能夠有更一致的一個狀態讓企業不會無所遵循這個部分我們會對所有的業者在4月24號這個下午7點我們會請這個美國的律師針對大家所關注的這個問題來做一些說明跟解釋\n610049\t634425\t我想這個部分企業都很關心我們也希望經濟部其實能夠有更好的一個投入那我特別要講到一個點就是說針對台灣高基金產業雖然部長一直覺得台灣這部分其實是有成本轉嫁的一個能力可是我們覺得在跟美國談判當中的時候我們市場越多元越有談判的一個籌碼就像美國的現在對日本施壓的時候\n636306\t662642\t日本的一個總理他也直接表示他們不會犧牲掉日本國民的一個利益然後完全對美國讓步那我也希望我們經濟部這邊也不是完全的讓步所以我最後提到一個點就是說我們經濟部之前在跟美國談判的當中的時候有哪些經濟部主張不讓步的一個項目有沒有具體\n664142\t679867\t報告委員我想關心國內這個國人的這個健康啦或者國人的生計的這些問題都是經濟部所關切的命題國人健康是衛福部這邊在管我們經濟部這邊有沒有哪些是我們主張不能夠讓步的一個項目經濟部這邊有沒有\n681007\t706180\t都認為這個是談判所謂讓步不讓步這是談判的過程的一種方式我們關心的就是國人這些產業的需求跟在從事這個產業的這些國人他們在未來的發展到底是怎麼樣那如果說面臨到巨大的衝擊的時候我們當然會在這個地方跟美方多過溝通跟協調OK 好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我想請一下郭部長還有我們國發會的高副主委好 請郭部長跟高副主委\n委員長部長好因為美國現在要針對那個貿易擴張法第232條的國安調查進行一些部分那這裡面其實很大一部分其實跟半導體還有我們的半導體製造設備還有一些衍生產品有關這跟台灣大概都有很大的關係那美方關切的重點大概整理起來大概是這五項這五項包括說各種的型號還有\n節電晶片的需求預估那是不是他們美國國內市場能夠滿足那美國對外國的晶圓廠跟蜂巢市場的依賴情況還有關鍵零組件是不是只能夠從海外取得那第四個是中國等國是否透過補貼或產能過程對美國產業這樣不公平競爭第五個部分是針對外國如果出口限制的時候那是否會對美國供應造成的影響所以這幾個裡面的時候我發現跟台灣都非常的有相關那我記得我之前針對那個美國要提高\n對人關稅的時候我記得你那時候覺得台灣的高科技產業尤其半導體產業其實有很強的一個成本轉嫁的一個能力的所以你覺得對台灣的產業影響不太大是這樣的情況嗎報告委員我想在這個半導體來講這個可以區分有兩大塊一大塊就是先進製程另外一個是比較這個成熟製程台灣在不管先進製程也好成熟製程也好\n都具有高度的競爭力也就是說我們同樣在這個製程裡面我們的良率是相對我們競爭率是非常高的但是我們現在很怕的就是我們在成熟製程的時候可能會面對到這個有些國家他給予這個補助出國補助\n那这个对我们来讲对我们的国内业者就相当的不利所以这一部分美国他也根据这样子他会去调查他会去调查所以我们都鼓励国内的业者要把他目前碰到的这个状况在这232上面就具体的把这个状况披露给让美国的这个政府了解那么以共我们在对美谈判的时候作为一个参考\n那我相信在這一部分美國他們也會很清楚那我們也請這個美國的客戶六大科技客戶針對台灣在這個先進製程上面的優勢那這些因為這六大客戶都是台灣台積電的客戶所以請他們也在幫美國政府跟美國政府做溝通所以透過美國的企業去做政府的遊說\n是這個意思嗎這是一部分因為時間有限我想說你這樣講我就沒有時間了那因為我想講說針對這個232的一個國安調查的時候那我們政府這邊有沒有什麼更積極的一個作為有沒有具體\n我想我們充分地反映這個實際的狀況讓談判小組才會明白OK 這只能夠充分地反映實際狀況那我今天我要特別講一個情況就是因為目前我看起來台灣在對美談判過程當中的時候我們好像就是不斷地讓\n好像沒有太多的一個談判的籌碼我想我特別舉一個例子就是針對黃仁勳他最近除了說要投資5000億在美國之外他也跑了大陸也跑了日本很積極他在做一個全球的佈局因為這樣的狀態才會有談判的籌碼我在想說我們政府的時候我們有這麼好的一個\n半導體的一個產業鏈那我們是不是有更好的一個談判籌碼的時候而不是只壓在一個地方當我們如果說完全市場只壓在美國這個市場當中的時候我們會沒有談判籌碼所以我在想針對這個部分的時候我想說經濟部這邊是不是有想好怎麼樣的方式的時候能夠讓台灣能夠把大陸市場同樣拉進來因為這八年我們對大陸這邊的狀態大陸\n變成不是我們的一個談判的籌碼這是我們擔心的點針對這個部分的時候部長這邊有沒有什麼比較好的一個做法要怎麼樣去把台灣增加其他的一個國際的一個談判籌碼去對美國\n因為這個是牽扯到你的客戶在哪裡但是先進製程的客戶通通在美國所以把大陸拉進來沒有用啊大陸他沒有那個先進通通在美國這個狀態的時候是因為受到美國的一個禁運的一個關係所以全世界並不是只有美國有高科技的一個晶片需求喔\n報告委員是這樣子我們台積電沒有自己的產品台積電是替別人生產芯片代工的所以他的客戶就是讓他代工的客戶先進製程通通是美國的廠商美國的六大科技廠商讓台積電來代工中國大陸他也沒有辦法\n所以你意思說如果說大陸他們也有先進製程的需求台積電也可以接嗎 你的意思是這樣子嗎台積電在美國 台積電在中國也有廠啊可是它不是先進製程啊 部長\n南京廠只有16奈米跟28奈米啊其實沒有先進製程啊所以你這樣講的說法是我說媚於整個目前整個一個世界市場的一個需求啦那我這邊我想在這邊就是我知道你想講的部分很多因為你整個算業界的人那如果說你要能夠我們另外再找時間再來談這個部分因為全世界高階製程的需求不是只有在美國\n不是只有這六大企業要那我想這邊特別講一個狀態是因為川普最近又丟了一個東西出來叫做一個針對所謂的非關稅的貿易障礙那他特別提到的一個情況是所謂的一個一個骯髒的一個手段那這裡面其實有八項裡面有幾項是跟經濟部有關部長你知不知道\n我們如果跟我們的這個有關的部門我想我們的部門應該會搜尋到這些我簡單講一下他這川普最新丟出來的這八項當中的時候大概出口補貼這邊跟經濟部這邊有關\n然後技術門檻的部分有然後智慧產權有其他的部分就農業部跟財政部相對多那我要特別講的一個情況是因為我們880億的一個相關的一個計畫當中的時候410億是經濟部的可是工業部分的700億都是經濟部在主導那這裡面的時候呢包括了有一些外銷貸款的優惠加碼的部分\n中小微企業的一個貸款的加碼的部分是不是都會踩到川普他這邊所謂的一個非關稅的一個作弊黑招的一個紅線想請問一下部長這個我們評估啦大概評估在目前的這個狀況之下應該不是跟他應該是不會抵觸啦因為我們是補貼利息啦不是不是把這個錢給他不是貸款\n所以你覺得說我們目前做的所有的補貼相關的措施然後包括了比方說我們對於整個技術的一個轉型的一個補助你覺得都不會踩到這個線技術轉型就是表示他不再做從來的這個直接出國的產品了\n可是因為我們這個所謂的輔助轉協都是跟美國出口有關的部分所以他在當川普他在提出了一個所謂的作弊黑招的時候那這裡面的時候那我們的補貼是不是都會踩到這紅線我想這邊我們要特別去加以研究一下好不好\n那我最後一個部分我特別提到一個點就是我們台灣對於所謂洗產地這個問題就是經濟部定義這邊的時候就是我們如果說對於整個家用產品有一個轉型的產品的一個轉型跟價值35%的時候基本上就算MIT的產品對不對我們經濟部是這樣的定義嗎是我們本來就有一個定義存在那美國對於大陸製造的\n產品 他們的定義是怎麼樣是只要原物料35%就算是大陸製造是這樣子嗎不是\n只要他的這個東西超過這樣的一個比例就算是中國製造超過什麼樣的比例 35%原物料超過35%就算那這邊就會出現一個狀態在台灣這邊的時候有很多其實是原物料從大陸來在台灣加工製造也滿足我們35%的附加價值可是可能跟美國這邊他們講35%的原物料會產生衝突針對這個部分的時候我們經濟部有沒有什麼更積極的\n去協助企業避免我們會協助業者跟美國的客戶溝通也會向美國的海關申請原產地的預審原產地預審來解決這個問題\nOK那針對這部分我們台灣的一個MIT的一個所謂的定義跟標準跟美國這邊是不是能夠有更一致的一個狀態讓企業不會無所遵循這個部分我們會對所有的業者在4月24號這個下午7點我們會請這個美國的律師針對大家所關注的這個問題來做一些說明跟解釋\n我想這個部分企業都很關心我們也希望經濟部其實能夠有更好的一個投入那我特別要講到一個點就是說針對台灣高基金產業雖然部長一直覺得台灣這部分其實是有成本轉嫁的一個能力可是我們覺得在跟美國談判當中的時候我們市場越多元越有談判的一個籌碼就像美國的現在對日本施壓的時候\n日本的一個總理他也直接表示他們不會犧牲掉日本國民的一個利益然後完全對美國讓步那我也希望我們經濟部這邊也不是完全的讓步所以我最後提到一個點就是說我們經濟部之前在跟美國談判的當中的時候有哪些經濟部主張不讓步的一個項目有沒有具體\n報告委員我想關心國內這個國人的這個健康啦或者國人的生計的這些問題都是經濟部所關切的命題國人健康是衛福部這邊在管我們經濟部這邊有沒有哪些是我們主張不能夠讓步的一個項目經濟部這邊有沒有\n都認為這個是談判所謂讓步不讓步這是談判的過程的一種方式我們關心的就是國人這些產業的需求跟在從事這個產業的這些國人他們在未來的發展到底是怎麼樣那如果說面臨到巨大的衝擊的時候我們當然會在這個地方跟美方多過溝通跟協調OK 好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.055 --> 00:14.130\n謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長還有我們國發會的高副主委好請郭部長跟高副主委\n\n00:21.195 --> 00:46.261\n委員長部長好因為美國現在要針對那個貿易擴張法第232條的國安調查進行一些部分那這裡面其實很大一部分其實跟半導體還有我們的半導體製造設備還有一些衍生產品有關這跟台灣大概都有很大的關係那美方關切的重點大概整理起來大概是這五項這五項包括說各種的型號還有\n\n00:47.161 --> 01:16.241\n節電晶片的需求預估那是不是他們美國國內市場能夠滿足那美國對外國的晶圓廠跟蜂巢市場的依賴情況還有關鍵零組件是不是只能夠從海外取得那第四個是中國等國是否透過補貼或產能過程對美國產業這樣不公平競爭第五個部分是針對外國如果出口限制的時候那是否會對美國供應造成的影響所以這幾個裡面的時候我發現跟台灣都非常的有相關那我記得我之前針對那個美國要提高\n\n01:17.041 --> 01:44.237\n對人關稅的時候我記得你那時候覺得台灣的高科技產業尤其半導體產業其實有很強的一個成本轉嫁的一個能力的所以你覺得對台灣的產業影響不太大是這樣的情況嗎報告委員我想在這個半導體來講這個可以區分有兩大塊一大塊就是先進製程另外一個是比較這個成熟製程台灣在不管先進製程也好成熟製程也好\n\n01:45.057 --> 02:02.366\n都具有高度的競爭力也就是說我們同樣在這個製程裡面我們的良率是相對我們競爭率是非常高的但是我們現在很怕的就是我們在成熟製程的時候可能會面對到這個有些國家他給予這個補助出國補助\n\n02:04.167 --> 02:31.579\n那这个对我们来讲对我们的国内业者就相当的不利所以这一部分美国他也根据这样子他会去调查他会去调查所以我们都鼓励国内的业者要把他目前碰到的这个状况在这232上面就具体的把这个状况披露给让美国的这个政府了解那么以共我们在对美谈判的时候作为一个参考\n\n02:32.455 --> 02:56.195\n那我相信在這一部分美國他們也會很清楚那我們也請這個美國的客戶六大科技客戶針對台灣在這個先進製程上面的優勢那這些因為這六大客戶都是台灣台積電的客戶所以請他們也在幫美國政府跟美國政府做溝通所以透過美國的企業去做政府的遊說\n\n02:57.256 --> 03:03.820\n是這個意思嗎這是一部分因為時間有限我想說你這樣講我就沒有時間了那因為我想講說針對這個232的一個國安調查的時候那我們政府這邊有沒有什麼更積極的一個作為有沒有具體\n\n03:12.950 --> 03:29.379\n我想我們充分地反映這個實際的狀況讓談判小組才會明白OK這只能夠充分地反映實際狀況那我今天我要特別講一個情況就是因為目前我看起來台灣在對美談判過程當中的時候我們好像就是不斷地讓\n\n03:30.619 --> 03:47.314\n好像沒有太多的一個談判的籌碼我想我特別舉一個例子就是針對黃仁勳他最近除了說要投資5000億在美國之外他也跑了大陸也跑了日本很積極他在做一個全球的佈局因為這樣的狀態才會有談判的籌碼我在想說我們政府的時候我們有這麼好的一個\n\n03:54.020 --> 04:20.955\n半導體的一個產業鏈那我們是不是有更好的一個談判籌碼的時候而不是只壓在一個地方當我們如果說完全市場只壓在美國這個市場當中的時候我們會沒有談判籌碼所以我在想針對這個部分的時候我想說經濟部這邊是不是有想好怎麼樣的方式的時候能夠讓台灣能夠把大陸市場同樣拉進來因為這八年我們對大陸這邊的狀態大陸\n\n04:23.676 --> 04:35.040\n變成不是我們的一個談判的籌碼這是我們擔心的點針對這個部分的時候部長這邊有沒有什麼比較好的一個做法要怎麼樣去把台灣增加其他的一個國際的一個談判籌碼去對美國\n\n04:39.384 --> 05:01.610\n因為這個是牽扯到你的客戶在哪裡但是先進製程的客戶通通在美國所以把大陸拉進來沒有用啊大陸他沒有那個先進通通在美國這個狀態的時候是因為受到美國的一個禁運的一個關係所以全世界並不是只有美國有高科技的一個晶片需求喔\n\n05:02.791 --> 05:23.790\n報告委員是這樣子我們台積電沒有自己的產品台積電是替別人生產芯片代工的所以他的客戶就是讓他代工的客戶先進製程通通是美國的廠商美國的六大科技廠商讓台積電來代工中國大陸他也沒有辦法\n\n05:24.752 --> 05:36.251\n所以你意思說如果說大陸他們也有先進製程的需求台積電也可以接嗎你的意思是這樣子嗎台積電在美國台積電在中國也有廠啊可是它不是先進製程啊部長\n\n05:37.458 --> 06:01.754\n南京廠只有16奈米跟28奈米啊其實沒有先進製程啊所以你這樣講的說法是我說媚於整個目前整個一個世界市場的一個需求啦那我這邊我想在這邊就是我知道你想講的部分很多因為你整個算業界的人那如果說你要能夠我們另外再找時間再來談這個部分因為全世界高階製程的需求不是只有在美國\n\n06:02.955 --> 06:31.343\n不是只有這六大企業要那我想這邊特別講一個狀態是因為川普最近又丟了一個東西出來叫做一個針對所謂的非關稅的貿易障礙那他特別提到的一個情況是所謂的一個一個骯髒的一個手段那這裡面其實有八項裡面有幾項是跟經濟部有關部長你知不知道\n\n06:33.157 --> 06:46.115\n我們如果跟我們的這個有關的部門我想我們的部門應該會搜尋到這些我簡單講一下他這川普最新丟出來的這八項當中的時候大概出口補貼這邊跟經濟部這邊有關\n\n06:49.119 --> 06:58.784\n然後技術門檻的部分有然後智慧產權有其他的部分就農業部跟財政部相對多那我要特別講的一個情況是因為我們880億的一個相關的一個計畫當中的時候410億是經濟部的可是工業部分的700億都是經濟部在主導那這裡面的時候呢包括了有一些外銷貸款的優惠加碼的部分\n\n07:14.893 --> 07:40.186\n中小微企業的一個貸款的加碼的部分是不是都會踩到川普他這邊所謂的一個非關稅的一個作弊黑招的一個紅線想請問一下部長這個我們評估啦大概評估在目前的這個狀況之下應該不是跟他應該是不會抵觸啦因為我們是補貼利息啦不是不是把這個錢給他不是貸款\n\n07:42.127 --> 08:01.053\n所以你覺得說我們目前做的所有的補貼相關的措施然後包括了比方說我們對於整個技術的一個轉型的一個補助你覺得都不會踩到這個線技術轉型就是表示他不再做從來的這個直接出國的產品了\n\n08:01.853 --> 08:21.875\n可是因為我們這個所謂的輔助轉協都是跟美國出口有關的部分所以他在當川普他在提出了一個所謂的作弊黑招的時候那這裡面的時候那我們的補貼是不是都會踩到這紅線我想這邊我們要特別去加以研究一下好不好\n\n08:22.535 --> 08:49.581\n那我最後一個部分我特別提到一個點就是我們台灣對於所謂洗產地這個問題就是經濟部定義這邊的時候就是我們如果說對於整個家用產品有一個轉型的產品的一個轉型跟價值35%的時候基本上就算MIT的產品對不對我們經濟部是這樣的定義嗎是我們本來就有一個定義存在那美國對於大陸製造的\n\n08:51.066 --> 08:56.059\n產品他們的定義是怎麼樣是只要原物料35%就算是大陸製造是這樣子嗎不是\n\n08:57.765 --> 09:23.064\n只要他的這個東西超過這樣的一個比例就算是中國製造超過什麼樣的比例35%原物料超過35%就算那這邊就會出現一個狀態在台灣這邊的時候有很多其實是原物料從大陸來在台灣加工製造也滿足我們35%的附加價值可是可能跟美國這邊他們講35%的原物料會產生衝突針對這個部分的時候我們經濟部有沒有什麼更積極的\n\n09:28.608 --> 09:38.993\n去協助企業避免我們會協助業者跟美國的客戶溝通也會向美國的海關申請原產地的預審原產地預審來解決這個問題\n\n09:43.115 --> 10:09.429\nOK那針對這部分我們台灣的一個MIT的一個所謂的定義跟標準跟美國這邊是不是能夠有更一致的一個狀態讓企業不會無所遵循這個部分我們會對所有的業者在4月24號這個下午7點我們會請這個美國的律師針對大家所關注的這個問題來做一些說明跟解釋\n\n10:10.049 --> 10:34.425\n我想這個部分企業都很關心我們也希望經濟部其實能夠有更好的一個投入那我特別要講到一個點就是說針對台灣高基金產業雖然部長一直覺得台灣這部分其實是有成本轉嫁的一個能力可是我們覺得在跟美國談判當中的時候我們市場越多元越有談判的一個籌碼就像美國的現在對日本施壓的時候\n\n10:36.306 --> 11:02.642\n日本的一個總理他也直接表示他們不會犧牲掉日本國民的一個利益然後完全對美國讓步那我也希望我們經濟部這邊也不是完全的讓步所以我最後提到一個點就是說我們經濟部之前在跟美國談判的當中的時候有哪些經濟部主張不讓步的一個項目有沒有具體\n\n11:04.142 --> 11:19.867\n報告委員我想關心國內這個國人的這個健康啦或者國人的生計的這些問題都是經濟部所關切的命題國人健康是衛福部這邊在管我們經濟部這邊有沒有哪些是我們主張不能夠讓步的一個項目經濟部這邊有沒有\n\n11:21.007 --> 11:46.180\n都認為這個是談判所謂讓步不讓步這是談判的過程的一種方式我們關心的就是國人這些產業的需求跟在從事這個產業的這些國人他們在未來的發展到底是怎麼樣那如果說面臨到巨大的衝擊的時候我們當然會在這個地方跟美方多過溝通跟協調OK好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.055,"end":14.13,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請一下郭部長還有我們國發會的高副主委好 請郭部長跟高副主委"},{"start":21.195,"end":46.261,"text":"委員長部長好因為美國現在要針對那個貿易擴張法第232條的國安調查進行一些部分那這裡面其實很大一部分其實跟半導體還有我們的半導體製造設備還有一些衍生產品有關這跟台灣大概都有很大的關係那美方關切的重點大概整理起來大概是這五項這五項包括說各種的型號還有"},{"start":47.161,"end":76.241,"text":"節電晶片的需求預估那是不是他們美國國內市場能夠滿足那美國對外國的晶圓廠跟蜂巢市場的依賴情況還有關鍵零組件是不是只能夠從海外取得那第四個是中國等國是否透過補貼或產能過程對美國產業這樣不公平競爭第五個部分是針對外國如果出口限制的時候那是否會對美國供應造成的影響所以這幾個裡面的時候我發現跟台灣都非常的有相關那我記得我之前針對那個美國要提高"},{"start":77.041,"end":104.237,"text":"對人關稅的時候我記得你那時候覺得台灣的高科技產業尤其半導體產業其實有很強的一個成本轉嫁的一個能力的所以你覺得對台灣的產業影響不太大是這樣的情況嗎報告委員我想在這個半導體來講這個可以區分有兩大塊一大塊就是先進製程另外一個是比較這個成熟製程台灣在不管先進製程也好成熟製程也好"},{"start":105.057,"end":122.366,"text":"都具有高度的競爭力也就是說我們同樣在這個製程裡面我們的良率是相對我們競爭率是非常高的但是我們現在很怕的就是我們在成熟製程的時候可能會面對到這個有些國家他給予這個補助出國補助"},{"start":124.167,"end":151.579,"text":"那这个对我们来讲对我们的国内业者就相当的不利所以这一部分美国他也根据这样子他会去调查他会去调查所以我们都鼓励国内的业者要把他目前碰到的这个状况在这232上面就具体的把这个状况披露给让美国的这个政府了解那么以共我们在对美谈判的时候作为一个参考"},{"start":152.455,"end":176.195,"text":"那我相信在這一部分美國他們也會很清楚那我們也請這個美國的客戶六大科技客戶針對台灣在這個先進製程上面的優勢那這些因為這六大客戶都是台灣台積電的客戶所以請他們也在幫美國政府跟美國政府做溝通所以透過美國的企業去做政府的遊說"},{"start":177.256,"end":183.82,"text":"是這個意思嗎這是一部分因為時間有限我想說你這樣講我就沒有時間了那因為我想講說針對這個232的一個國安調查的時候那我們政府這邊有沒有什麼更積極的一個作為有沒有具體"},{"start":192.95,"end":209.379,"text":"我想我們充分地反映這個實際的狀況讓談判小組才會明白OK 這只能夠充分地反映實際狀況那我今天我要特別講一個情況就是因為目前我看起來台灣在對美談判過程當中的時候我們好像就是不斷地讓"},{"start":210.619,"end":227.314,"text":"好像沒有太多的一個談判的籌碼我想我特別舉一個例子就是針對黃仁勳他最近除了說要投資5000億在美國之外他也跑了大陸也跑了日本很積極他在做一個全球的佈局因為這樣的狀態才會有談判的籌碼我在想說我們政府的時候我們有這麼好的一個"},{"start":234.02,"end":260.955,"text":"半導體的一個產業鏈那我們是不是有更好的一個談判籌碼的時候而不是只壓在一個地方當我們如果說完全市場只壓在美國這個市場當中的時候我們會沒有談判籌碼所以我在想針對這個部分的時候我想說經濟部這邊是不是有想好怎麼樣的方式的時候能夠讓台灣能夠把大陸市場同樣拉進來因為這八年我們對大陸這邊的狀態大陸"},{"start":263.676,"end":275.04,"text":"變成不是我們的一個談判的籌碼這是我們擔心的點針對這個部分的時候部長這邊有沒有什麼比較好的一個做法要怎麼樣去把台灣增加其他的一個國際的一個談判籌碼去對美國"},{"start":279.384,"end":301.61,"text":"因為這個是牽扯到你的客戶在哪裡但是先進製程的客戶通通在美國所以把大陸拉進來沒有用啊大陸他沒有那個先進通通在美國這個狀態的時候是因為受到美國的一個禁運的一個關係所以全世界並不是只有美國有高科技的一個晶片需求喔"},{"start":302.791,"end":323.79,"text":"報告委員是這樣子我們台積電沒有自己的產品台積電是替別人生產芯片代工的所以他的客戶就是讓他代工的客戶先進製程通通是美國的廠商美國的六大科技廠商讓台積電來代工中國大陸他也沒有辦法"},{"start":324.752,"end":336.251,"text":"所以你意思說如果說大陸他們也有先進製程的需求台積電也可以接嗎 你的意思是這樣子嗎台積電在美國 台積電在中國也有廠啊可是它不是先進製程啊 部長"},{"start":337.458,"end":361.754,"text":"南京廠只有16奈米跟28奈米啊其實沒有先進製程啊所以你這樣講的說法是我說媚於整個目前整個一個世界市場的一個需求啦那我這邊我想在這邊就是我知道你想講的部分很多因為你整個算業界的人那如果說你要能夠我們另外再找時間再來談這個部分因為全世界高階製程的需求不是只有在美國"},{"start":362.955,"end":391.343,"text":"不是只有這六大企業要那我想這邊特別講一個狀態是因為川普最近又丟了一個東西出來叫做一個針對所謂的非關稅的貿易障礙那他特別提到的一個情況是所謂的一個一個骯髒的一個手段那這裡面其實有八項裡面有幾項是跟經濟部有關部長你知不知道"},{"start":393.157,"end":406.115,"text":"我們如果跟我們的這個有關的部門我想我們的部門應該會搜尋到這些我簡單講一下他這川普最新丟出來的這八項當中的時候大概出口補貼這邊跟經濟部這邊有關"},{"start":409.119,"end":418.784,"text":"然後技術門檻的部分有然後智慧產權有其他的部分就農業部跟財政部相對多那我要特別講的一個情況是因為我們880億的一個相關的一個計畫當中的時候410億是經濟部的可是工業部分的700億都是經濟部在主導那這裡面的時候呢包括了有一些外銷貸款的優惠加碼的部分"},{"start":434.893,"end":460.186,"text":"中小微企業的一個貸款的加碼的部分是不是都會踩到川普他這邊所謂的一個非關稅的一個作弊黑招的一個紅線想請問一下部長這個我們評估啦大概評估在目前的這個狀況之下應該不是跟他應該是不會抵觸啦因為我們是補貼利息啦不是不是把這個錢給他不是貸款"},{"start":462.127,"end":481.053,"text":"所以你覺得說我們目前做的所有的補貼相關的措施然後包括了比方說我們對於整個技術的一個轉型的一個補助你覺得都不會踩到這個線技術轉型就是表示他不再做從來的這個直接出國的產品了"},{"start":481.853,"end":501.875,"text":"可是因為我們這個所謂的輔助轉協都是跟美國出口有關的部分所以他在當川普他在提出了一個所謂的作弊黑招的時候那這裡面的時候那我們的補貼是不是都會踩到這紅線我想這邊我們要特別去加以研究一下好不好"},{"start":502.535,"end":529.581,"text":"那我最後一個部分我特別提到一個點就是我們台灣對於所謂洗產地這個問題就是經濟部定義這邊的時候就是我們如果說對於整個家用產品有一個轉型的產品的一個轉型跟價值35%的時候基本上就算MIT的產品對不對我們經濟部是這樣的定義嗎是我們本來就有一個定義存在那美國對於大陸製造的"},{"start":531.066,"end":536.059,"text":"產品 他們的定義是怎麼樣是只要原物料35%就算是大陸製造是這樣子嗎不是"},{"start":537.765,"end":563.064,"text":"只要他的這個東西超過這樣的一個比例就算是中國製造超過什麼樣的比例 35%原物料超過35%就算那這邊就會出現一個狀態在台灣這邊的時候有很多其實是原物料從大陸來在台灣加工製造也滿足我們35%的附加價值可是可能跟美國這邊他們講35%的原物料會產生衝突針對這個部分的時候我們經濟部有沒有什麼更積極的"},{"start":568.608,"end":578.993,"text":"去協助企業避免我們會協助業者跟美國的客戶溝通也會向美國的海關申請原產地的預審原產地預審來解決這個問題"},{"start":583.115,"end":609.429,"text":"OK那針對這部分我們台灣的一個MIT的一個所謂的定義跟標準跟美國這邊是不是能夠有更一致的一個狀態讓企業不會無所遵循這個部分我們會對所有的業者在4月24號這個下午7點我們會請這個美國的律師針對大家所關注的這個問題來做一些說明跟解釋"},{"start":610.049,"end":634.425,"text":"我想這個部分企業都很關心我們也希望經濟部其實能夠有更好的一個投入那我特別要講到一個點就是說針對台灣高基金產業雖然部長一直覺得台灣這部分其實是有成本轉嫁的一個能力可是我們覺得在跟美國談判當中的時候我們市場越多元越有談判的一個籌碼就像美國的現在對日本施壓的時候"},{"start":636.306,"end":662.642,"text":"日本的一個總理他也直接表示他們不會犧牲掉日本國民的一個利益然後完全對美國讓步那我也希望我們經濟部這邊也不是完全的讓步所以我最後提到一個點就是說我們經濟部之前在跟美國談判的當中的時候有哪些經濟部主張不讓步的一個項目有沒有具體"},{"start":664.142,"end":679.867,"text":"報告委員我想關心國內這個國人的這個健康啦或者國人的生計的這些問題都是經濟部所關切的命題國人健康是衛福部這邊在管我們經濟部這邊有沒有哪些是我們主張不能夠讓步的一個項目經濟部這邊有沒有"},{"start":681.007,"end":706.18,"text":"都認為這個是談判所謂讓步不讓步這是談判的過程的一種方式我們關心的就是國人這些產業的需求跟在從事這個產業的這些國人他們在未來的發展到底是怎麼樣那如果說面臨到巨大的衝擊的時候我們當然會在這個地方跟美方多過溝通跟協調OK 好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時37分）謝謝主席，我想請郭部長還有國發會的高副主委。"],["主席：好，請郭部長跟高副主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。因為美國現在要針對貿易擴張法第二百三十二條的規定進行國安調查，這裡面很大一部分其實跟半導體及半導體製造設備還有一些衍生產品有關，這跟臺灣大概都有很大的關係。美方關切的重點整理起來大概是在這五項，包括各種型號及節點晶片的需求預估，美國國內生產是否能夠滿足；美國對外國的晶圓廠與封裝測試廠的依賴情況；還有關鍵零組件是不是只能夠從海外取得；第四個是中國等國是否透過補貼或產能過剩手段，對美國產業構成不公平競爭；第五個部分就是針對外國如果出口限制，是否會對美國供應鏈造成影響，所以在這幾個點，我發現都跟臺灣非常有相關。之前針對美國要提高對等關稅的時候，我記得你那時候覺得臺灣的高科技產業尤其半導體產業其實有很強的成本轉嫁能力，所以你覺得對臺灣的產業影響不太大，是這樣的情況嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想對於半導體來講，可以區分成兩大塊：一大塊就是先進製程，另外一個是成熟製程，臺灣在不管先進製程也好、成熟製程也好，都具有高度的競爭力，也就是說，同樣在這個製程裡面，我們的良率是相對非常高的。但是我們現在很怕的就是我們在成熟製程的部分，可能會面對到有些國家給予出口補助，這對我們國內業者來講就相當不利，美國根據這個情況，它會去調查，所以我們都鼓勵國內的業者要把它目前碰到的狀況，在這232上面鉅細靡遺的把這個狀況披露給美國政府了解，以供我們在對美談判的時候作為一個參考。我相信在這部分美國他們也會很清楚，我們也請美國的六大科技客戶，因為這六大客戶都是台積電的客戶，針對臺灣在先進製程上面的優勢，請他們也跟美國政府做溝通。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以透過美國的企業去做對政府的遊說，是這個意思嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這是一部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為時間有限，我想說你這樣講，我就沒有時間了。我想講說，針對232的國安調查，我們政府這邊有沒有什麼更積極的具體作為？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們充分地反映實際的狀況讓談判小組……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這只能夠充分地反映實際狀況。但我這邊要特別講一個情況，因為目前我看起來，臺灣在對美談判過程當中，我們好像就是不斷的讓，好像沒有太多的談判籌碼。我想特別舉一個例子，就是針對黃仁勳，他最近除了說要投資5,000億在美國之外，他也跑了大陸，也跑了日本，很積極，他在做全球的布局，因為這樣的狀態，他才會有談判的籌碼。我在想我們的政府，我們有這麼好的半導體產業鏈，所以是不是能夠有更好的談判籌碼，而不是只壓在一個地方，如果說完全只壓在美國這個市場，我們會沒有談判籌碼。所以針對這個部分，經濟部是不是有想好怎麼樣的方式，能夠讓臺灣把大陸市場同樣拉進來，因為這8年我們對大陸這邊的狀態，大陸變成不是我們的談判籌碼，這是我們擔心的點。部長有沒有什麼比較好的作法，要怎麼樣對美國增加臺灣其他的國際談判籌碼？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為這是牽扯到你的客戶在哪裡，但是先進製程的客戶通通在美國，所以把大陸拉進來也沒有用，大陸沒有先進製程。"],["鄭委員正鈐：通通在美國的這個狀態，是因為受到美國禁運的關係，全世界並不是只有美國有高科技的晶片需求。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，沒有，報告委員，是這樣子，我們台積電沒有自己的產品，台積電是替別人生產晶片……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，代工。"],["郭部長智輝：代工的，所以它的客戶就是讓它代工的客戶，就是先進製程部分通通是美國的廠商，美國的六大科技廠商讓台積電來代工，中國大陸也沒有辦法……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你的意思是說，如果大陸他們也有先進製程的需求，台積電也可以接嗎？你的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：台積電在中國也有廠啊！"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是不是先進製程啊，部長，南京廠只有16奈米跟28奈米，其實沒有先進製程啊，所以你這樣的說法，我覺得昧於目前整個世界市場的需求啦！我知道你想講的部分很多，因為你算是業界的人，如果能夠，我們另外再找時間來談這個部分，因為全世界高階製程的需求不是只有在美國、不是只有這六大企業要。我特別講一個事情，因為川普最近又丟了一個東西出來，針對非關稅貿易障礙，他特別提到的情況是所謂的骯髒手段，這裡面有8項，而其中有幾項是跟經濟部有關，部長，你知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：跟我們有關的部分，我想我們的部門應該會搜尋到這些相關的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，我簡單講一下，川普最新丟出來的這8項，大概出口補貼的部分是跟經濟部這邊有關，然後技術門檻、智慧財產權也是有關；其他部分相對較多就是與農業部跟財政部有關。我要特別講一個情況，我們880億的相關計畫當中，410億是經濟部的，可是工業部分的700億，都是經濟部在主導，包括了一些外銷貸款的優惠加碼、中小微企業貸款加碼的部分，請問一下部長，這是不是都會踩到川普所謂非關稅作弊黑招的紅線？"],["郭部長智輝：我們評估大概在目前的狀況之下，應該是不會與其牴觸，因為我們是補貼利息，不是把這個錢給它、不是貸款後你就不用付了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你覺得目前我們做的所有補貼相關措施，包括我們對於整個技術轉型的補助，你覺得都不會踩到這個紅線？"],["郭部長智輝：技術轉型就是表示它不再做直接出口的產品，所以跟美國所訂……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。可是因為我們這邊所有的補助轉型，都是跟美國出口有關，所以當川普提出了所謂作弊黑招的時候，那我們的補貼是不是都會踩到這個紅線？對此我們要特別加以研究一下，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：最後我要特別提到一個點，就是我們臺灣對於所謂洗產地的問題，經濟部的定義是我們對於整個加工產品有一個產品的轉型跟加值35%的時候，基本上就算是MIT的產品，我們經濟部是這樣的定義嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們本來就有一個定義存在。"],["鄭委員正鈐：美國對於大陸製造的產品，他們的定義是怎麼樣？只要原物料占35%就算大陸製造，是這樣子嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，只要他的東西超過這樣一個比例，就算是中國製造。"],["鄭委員正鈐：超過什麼樣的比例？35%？"],["郭部長智輝：35%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：原物料超過35%就算，這樣會出現一個狀態，臺灣有很多原物料其實是從大陸來，然後在臺灣加工製造，這也滿足所謂35%的附加價值，可是可能跟美國他們講的35%原物料會產生衝突。針對這個部分，我們經濟部有沒有什麼更積極的作法去協助企業，避免……"],["郭部長智輝：我們會協助業者跟美國的客戶溝通，也會向美國的海關申請原產地的預審。"],["鄭委員正鈐：用原產地預審來解決這個問題？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，針對這部分，我們臺灣MIT所謂的定義跟標準，跟美國是不是能夠有更一致的狀態，讓企業不會無所遵循？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我們會對所有的業者在4月24號下午7點，我們會請美國的律師，針對大家所關注的問題，來做一些說明跟解釋。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分其實企業都很關心，我們也希望經濟部其實能夠有更好的一個投入。","我特別要講到一個點，就是針對臺灣高科技產業，雖然部長一直覺得臺灣這部分其實是有成本轉嫁的能力，可是我們覺得在跟美國談判當中，我們市場越多元，就越有談判的籌碼，就像美國現在對日本施壓，日本首相也直接表示，他們不會犧牲掉日本國民的利益，然後完全對美國讓步，我也希望我們經濟部也不是完全的讓步。所以我最後要提到一個點，經濟部之前在跟美國談判當中，有哪些是經濟部主張不讓步的項目？有沒有具體的項目？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想關心國內國人的健康或者國人生計的這些問題，都是經濟部所關切的問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：國人健康是衛福部這邊在管，我們經濟部這邊有沒有哪些是我們主張不能夠讓步的項目？有沒有呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都認為，這個是談判，所謂讓步或不讓步都是談判過程的一種方式，我們關心的就是這些產業的需求以及在從事這些產業的國人，他們在未來的發展到底是怎麼樣，如果要面臨巨大的衝擊，我們當然會在這個地方跟美方多做溝通跟協調。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。我們下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}}