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00:00:43,431\n我想剛剛有聽到您的一些回應顯見您對FHIR的專案算是有一定的了解那我先講我們相信這個專案是出使利益良善那我相信也有非常多人在背後用心用力但是現在發生的狀況我想是非常多人都不願意看到網友甚至炸鍋那投影片不確定有沒有提出來\n\n3\n00:00:44,432 --> 00:00:56,801\n那我想最重要的一個點我現在其實我也不去講抄襲我甚至只講挪用但是實際上在感受上在法律上確實有這樣的一個疑慮甚至我們這次的這個關稅戰爭裡面川普總統就講了其實各國對美國會用所謂的非關稅壁壘\n\n4\n00:01:03,286 --> 00:01:22,132\n如果有這種保護境內去運用開源的軟體去獲得一些所謂的一些不公平的這種競爭其實這不是美國希望看到的這甚至對美國也不公平這其實不是一件非常好的事情而且剛剛講說好像日文抄襲我認為比日文抄襲還嚴重這是國家級的抄襲所以我希望這個真的部長一定要重視第二個形式的補正其實都沒有補正的好當然我知道今天已經補正完了\n\n5\n00:01:32,395 --> 00:01:59,647\n相關的這個APA72.0已經改成MITlicense我們都有看到但實際上整件事情還有非常多的地方要來檢討首先第一點最明確的大家網友最不能理解的是濫權封殺吹哨吹哨者我們大家可以看到這個有工程師因為這都是公開的我就不不引其名他說禁止他來使用在這裡我請部長看一下最下方左下角\n\n6\n00:02:00,507 --> 00:02:23,680\n他禁止一家公司跟一個個人來使用這個開源授權做出來理論上也應該要開源的東西喔剛剛這個處長還有講其實我看處長在網路上的演講我覺得你也很專業但是我跟你說這沒有侵犯到商業的競爭嗎你要不要請美國律師確認一下這真的沒有觸犯到商業競爭嗎我們再看下一頁喔\n\n7\n00:02:24,620 --> 00:02:49,516\n我覺得最可怕的是這位個人的這個處理的方式或工業院我覺得這也不是工業院的團隊待會我們會講整體的問題這個人的狀況其實是非常嚴重他甚至還講說因為這個個人之前有他是法人他是個人他之前有禁止我們工業院使用他的東西所以他現在知道錯了吧因為我現在也封鎖他了\n\n8\n00:02:52,313 --> 00:03:17,694\n私人企業去做各種調整那是他家的事情啊你用公法人來對付司法人這對嗎所以我想為什麼剛剛有提到要做道歉美國律師也應該要重新了解這難道沒有牽涉到商業競爭嗎這甚至是一種報復的行為啊部長你要不要簡單講一下剛剛我是看您我不知道這個您是不是現在第一次知道\n\n9\n00:03:19,790 --> 00:03:47,748\n這個狀況嚴重的程度你是不是現在第一次知道沒有我已經一開始的時候我想李處長就隨時一直跟我保持聯繫牽涉到商業競爭知道嗎委員剛剛提的的確很有道理啦就是說我們即使他公司同時不分啦我幫部長講不應該這樣的一個對應啦那個有是大家不同的立場所以我覺得說如果有我們如果他\n\n10\n00:03:48,891 --> 00:04:12,477\n有他的一個不對我想我們這個部分會去會去那個這個跟他那個看看要辦理啦我覺得這不是個人的問題喔不要解決提出問題的人喔也不要只對個人處理喔這很可能是結構性的問題我先感謝衛福部跟委員週末都來發聲明啦但是有人說避重就輕啦剛剛講的這些報復的行為啦這種個人的這個狀況都沒有提到是怎麼樣\n\n11\n00:04:18,338 --> 00:04:45,734\n個人行為個人單嗎那這樣我們也不用組織了嘛每個人都是客人我們也不用工業院我們也不用衛福部每個人都是客人就好啦當然不是嘛那我們現在看齁甚至呢還有這種貢獻者清單因為版本更新就直接移除了以前很多contributor我想這個一介也不是這樣看的嘛我們所有的這些東西都很感謝前面的尤其開源的軟體非常重視要留下來誰貢獻的每一個版本都要留下來\n\n12\n00:04:46,454 --> 00:05:15,431\n為什麼移除呢所以我想為什麼我們今天一定要來跟大家來交流其實有幾個很明確的問題有一些細節請書面報告回覆我比如說部長您剛剛有說你一開始就知道什麼時候知道第二個現在這個專案到底是誰的是美國的還是衛福部的還是公研院的結果現在有錯推給個人拿來用的話就是變成衛福部的還是這是屬於公眾大眾的\n\n13\n00:05:15,871 --> 00:05:27,745\n第二個相關合約有沒有要求衍生程式碼要揭露來源這東西有沒有要求有嗎有沒有要求有要求那這顯然就違約啊那有沒有違約的處理\n\n14\n00:05:33,932 --> 00:05:45,161\n謝謝委員指教我們從這裡面也學到很多開源軟體是專門的知識那第一個就是說合約的部分交付的內容不是程式因為我們是衛福部所以交付的內容叫做標準\n\n15\n00:05:45,982 --> 00:06:02,840\n所以說這些是他的唯一的東西是他開發這些標準的程式所以他這個是合約外的事情所以只做出標準要花八億是不是沒有沒有軟體這不是叫平台嗎沒有沒有我們是衛福部說我們要的是標準去統一全國台灣的電子病例那好那做出來的東西是誰好所以大平台跳完是誰的\n\n16\n00:06:04,111 --> 00:06:19,515\n做平台的標準是全民的啊大平台本身這些軟體程式是誰的所以你說8億做出來就是標準不含軟體不含平台不含程式嘛確定喔要確定喔這個就是我們去查這個我們合約的交易項目就是標準更可怕囉\n\n17\n00:06:21,636 --> 00:06:37,606\n部長你一定要關注啦這個專案到底怎麼發出去的我們花8億去做標準而且這個標準是衍生出自美國的開放標準現在做了一堆程式現在說也不是這個人的也不是工研院的也不是衛福部的也不是全民的\n\n18\n00:06:38,286 --> 00:07:01,749\n那個東西花8億做完就沒了是不是就把它刪掉就好了是嗎處長講清楚喔這個很危險喔第一個他現在這個做的開發的這些程式都是一個來自於美國因為美國的標準我們現在全是去做那做出來的標準要本地化所以要花很大的力氣去本地化然後第二個不是只有這個標準整個8億裡面做很多的事情\n\n19\n00:07:03,090 --> 00:07:30,758\n內容有沒有包含程式碼有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含這個線上平台沒有沒有沒有交付的內容就是50個標準和這個所謂的50條的就是這個台灣核心資料群有109個項目跟50個健保申報的一個電腦程式的一個標準交付的是這個東西那這個東西就公告全國我們從廠商到醫院都可以用這個標準來統一我們的內容\n\n20\n00:07:31,838 --> 00:07:48,159\n所以全球網友都搞錯了好這個到底這個標準值不值8億沒關係還有AHRQ的來往韓文我們也需要知道啦齁這個保險假設真的有人來求償了怎麼辦誰付錢這也要知道這個以上回覆\n\n21\n00:07:49,120 --> 00:08:10,965\n其實我們還有對不起主席給我一些時間因為這真的太重要了我們人民的血汗錢真的要被監督8億的總經費去年是4億加1.3億的追加然後今年又再來2.7億一共8億而且這兩年度的專案相似性很高大家一起去看了\n\n22\n00:08:11,445 --> 00:08:23,594\n而且去年1.3億的追測經費執行期限竟然只有18天請問處長這是不是真的我們看到是不是我們是不是誤會對不起因為這個很重要我請處長謝謝我也\n\n23\n00:08:27,596 --> 00:08:53,803\n對這個的確造成一些誤會容我在這邊澄清一下他所謂的追加是事實上前面因為我們要更改計畫我們去國科會報告了所以計畫更改了舊的英鎊事項很多拿掉所以先扣掉錢然後第二個新的英鎊事項在各位專家建議之下應該做得更好所以他把這個1.3億加回去結果前後比起來呢他們原始的經費還縮減也就是說他前面有先扣掉超過1.3億的經費那是本來\n\n24\n00:08:55,623 --> 00:09:13,795\n所以總共執行不足8億嗎就是去年加起來是5.3億去年總共花不到5.3億嗎這個我們要給委員正式的提供報告來給委員我想其實昭偉剛好也站起來其實這個專案在預算上面\n\n25\n00:09:17,281 --> 00:09:41,921\n沒有啦在預算上啦其實我們蘇星泉趙偉在今年的總預算就有提到這個專案我們也希望相關的弊病要了解有非常多的專案500萬一個月320萬不到一個月148萬7天這些東西很可能都是這是500萬30天的專案兩頁啊就發出去了而且很快速就完成了到底為什麼\n\n26\n00:09:42,722 --> 00:10:01,850\n有很多希望能夠做到的建議我們提出來也希望相關書面來報告那我們也提出兩點具體訴求也希望你們待會去討論第一點我們希望成立開遠辦公室看是要部的還是院的還是工研院這裡來做我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情\n\n27\n00:10:02,550 --> 00:10:20,295\n我的投影片變成黑幕沒關係再來第二點啦公共出資公共城市publicmoneypubliccode我們也希望公眾的錢的東西就不要亂歸屬不要亂報復我們希望回歸公眾我們也希望這個案子可以給我們很多很多的反省跟討論謝謝是的委員所要求我們會詳盡的報告\n\n28\n00:10:26,457 --> 00:10:37,932\n也把整個事件做一個檢討跟經驗把整個國家在這一段的發展在專家們大家督促之下以及立法院督促教棉做得更好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n450\t11706\t謝謝主席 我們有請部長\n21270\t43431\t我想剛剛有聽到您的一些回應顯見您對FHIR的專案算是有一定的了解那我先講我們相信這個專案是出使利益良善那我相信也有非常多人在背後用心用力但是現在發生的狀況我想是非常多人都不願意看到網友甚至炸鍋那投影片不確定有沒有提出來\n44432\t56801\t那我想最重要的一個點我現在其實我也不去講抄襲我甚至只講挪用但是實際上在感受上在法律上確實有這樣的一個疑慮甚至我們這次的這個關稅戰爭裡面川普總統就講了其實各國對美國會用所謂的非關稅壁壘\n63286\t82132\t如果有這種保護境內去運用開源的軟體去獲得一些所謂的一些不公平的這種競爭其實這不是美國希望看到的這甚至對美國也不公平這其實不是一件非常好的事情而且剛剛講說好像日文抄襲我認為比日文抄襲還嚴重這是國家級的抄襲所以我希望這個真的部長一定要重視第二個形式的補正其實都沒有補正的好當然我知道今天已經補正完了\n92395\t119647\t相關的這個APA7 2.0已經改成MIT license我們都有看到但實際上整件事情還有非常多的地方要來檢討首先第一點最明確的大家網友最不能理解的是濫權封殺吹哨吹哨者我們大家可以看到這個有工程師因為這都是公開的我就不不引其名他說禁止他來使用在這裡我請部長看一下最下方左下角\n120507\t143680\t他禁止一家公司跟一個個人來使用這個開源授權做出來理論上也應該要開源的東西喔剛剛這個處長還有講其實我看處長在網路上的演講我覺得你也很專業但是我跟你說這沒有侵犯到商業的競爭嗎你要不要請美國律師確認一下這真的沒有觸犯到商業競爭嗎我們再看下一頁喔\n144620\t169516\t我覺得最可怕的是這位個人的這個處理的方式或工業院我覺得這也不是工業院的團隊待會我們會講整體的問題這個人的狀況其實是非常嚴重他甚至還講說因為這個個人之前有他是法人他是個人他之前有禁止我們工業院使用他的東西所以他現在知道錯了吧因為我現在也封鎖他了\n172313\t197694\t私人企業去做各種調整那是他家的事情啊你用公法人來對付司法人這對嗎所以我想為什麼剛剛有提到要做道歉美國律師也應該要重新了解這難道沒有牽涉到商業競爭嗎這甚至是一種報復的行為啊部長你要不要簡單講一下剛剛我是看您我不知道這個您是不是現在第一次知道\n199790\t227748\t這個狀況嚴重的程度你是不是現在第一次知道沒有我已經一開始的時候我想李處長就隨時一直跟我保持聯繫牽涉到商業競爭知道嗎委員剛剛提的的確很有道理啦就是說我們即使他公司同時不分啦我幫部長講不應該這樣的一個對應啦那個有是大家不同的立場所以我覺得說如果有我們如果他\n228891\t252477\t有他的一個不對我想我們這個部分會去會去那個這個跟他那個看看要辦理啦我覺得這不是個人的問題喔不要解決提出問題的人喔也不要只對個人處理喔這很可能是結構性的問題我先感謝衛福部跟委員週末都來發聲明啦但是有人說避重就輕啦剛剛講的這些報復的行為啦這種個人的這個狀況都沒有提到是怎麼樣\n258338\t285734\t個人行為個人單嗎那這樣我們也不用組織了嘛每個人都是客人我們也不用工業院我們也不用衛福部每個人都是客人就好啦當然不是嘛那我們現在看齁甚至呢還有這種貢獻者清單因為版本更新就直接移除了以前很多contributor我想這個一介也不是這樣看的嘛我們所有的這些東西都很感謝前面的尤其開源的軟體非常重視要留下來誰貢獻的每一個版本都要留下來\n286454\t315431\t為什麼移除呢所以我想為什麼我們今天一定要來跟大家來交流其實有幾個很明確的問題有一些細節請書面報告回覆我比如說部長您剛剛有說你一開始就知道什麼時候知道第二個現在這個專案到底是誰的是美國的還是衛福部的還是公研院的結果現在有錯推給個人拿來用的話就是變成衛福部的還是這是屬於公眾大眾的\n315871\t327745\t第二個相關合約有沒有要求衍生程式碼要揭露來源這東西有沒有要求有嗎有沒有要求有要求那這顯然就違約啊那有沒有違約的處理\n333932\t345161\t謝謝委員指教我們從這裡面也學到很多開源軟體是專門的知識那第一個就是說合約的部分交付的內容不是程式因為我們是衛福部所以交付的內容叫做標準\n345982\t362840\t所以說這些是他的唯一的東西是他開發這些標準的程式所以他這個是合約外的事情所以只做出標準要花八億是不是沒有沒有軟體這不是叫平台嗎沒有沒有我們是衛福部說我們要的是標準去統一全國台灣的電子病例那好那做出來的東西是誰好所以大平台跳完是誰的\n364111\t379515\t做平台的標準是全民的啊大平台本身這些軟體程式是誰的所以你說8億做出來就是標準不含軟體不含平台不含程式嘛確定喔要確定喔這個就是我們去查這個我們合約的交易項目就是標準更可怕囉\n381636\t397606\t部長你一定要關注啦這個專案到底怎麼發出去的我們花8億去做標準而且這個標準是衍生出自美國的開放標準現在做了一堆程式現在說也不是這個人的也不是工研院的也不是衛福部的也不是全民的\n398286\t421749\t那個東西花8億做完就沒了 是不是 就把它刪掉就好了 是嗎處長 講清楚喔 這個很危險喔第一個他現在這個做的開發的這些程式都是一個來自於美國 因為美國的標準我們現在全是去做那做出來的標準要本地化 所以要花很大的力氣去本地化然後第二個不是只有這個標準 整個8億裡面做很多的事情\n423090\t450758\t內容有沒有包含程式碼有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含這個線上平台沒有沒有沒有交付的內容就是50個標準和這個所謂的50條的就是這個台灣核心資料群有109個項目跟50個健保申報的一個電腦程式的一個標準交付的是這個東西那這個東西就公告全國我們從廠商到醫院都可以用這個標準來統一我們的內容\n451838\t468159\t所以全球網友都搞錯了好這個到底這個標準值不值8億沒關係還有AHRQ的來往韓文我們也需要知道啦齁這個保險假設真的有人來求償了怎麼辦誰付錢這也要知道這個以上回覆\n469120\t490965\t其實我們還有對不起主席給我一些時間因為這真的太重要了我們人民的血汗錢真的要被監督8億的總經費去年是4億加1.3億的追加然後今年又再來2.7億一共8億而且這兩年度的專案相似性很高大家一起去看了\n491445\t503594\t而且去年1.3億的追測經費執行期限竟然只有18天請問處長這是不是真的我們看到是不是我們是不是誤會對不起 因為這個很重要我請處長謝謝我也\n507596\t533803\t對 這個的確造成一些誤會容我在這邊澄清一下他所謂的追加是事實上前面因為我們要更改計畫我們去國科會報告了所以計畫更改了舊的英鎊事項很多拿掉所以先扣掉錢然後第二個新的英鎊事項在各位專家建議之下應該做得更好所以他把這個1.3億加回去結果前後比起來呢他們原始的經費還縮減也就是說他前面有先扣掉超過1.3億的經費那是本來\n535623\t553795\t所以總共執行不足8億嗎就是去年加起來是5.3億去年總共花不到5.3億嗎這個我們要給委員正式的提供報告來給委員我想其實昭偉剛好也站起來其實這個專案在預算上面\n557281\t581921\t沒有啦 在預算上啦其實我們蘇星泉 趙偉在今年的總預算就有提到這個專案我們也希望相關的弊病要了解有非常多的專案500萬一個月320萬不到一個月148萬7天這些東西很可能都是這是500萬30天的專案兩頁啊就發出去了而且很快速就完成了到底為什麼\n582722\t601850\t有很多希望能夠做到的建議我們提出來也希望相關書面來報告那我們也提出兩點具體訴求也希望你們待會去討論第一點我們希望成立開遠辦公室看是要部的還是院的還是工研院這裡來做我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情\n602550\t620295\t我的投影片變成黑幕沒關係再來第二點啦公共出資公共城市public money public code我們也希望公眾的錢的東西就不要亂歸屬不要亂報復我們希望回歸公眾我們也希望這個案子可以給我們很多很多的反省跟討論謝謝是的委員所要求我們會詳盡的報告\n626457\t637932\t也把整個事件做一個檢討跟經驗把整個國家在這一段的發展在專家們大家督促之下以及立法院督促教棉做得更好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長\n我想剛剛有聽到您的一些回應顯見您對FHIR的專案算是有一定的了解那我先講我們相信這個專案是出使利益良善那我相信也有非常多人在背後用心用力但是現在發生的狀況我想是非常多人都不願意看到網友甚至炸鍋那投影片不確定有沒有提出來\n那我想最重要的一個點我現在其實我也不去講抄襲我甚至只講挪用但是實際上在感受上在法律上確實有這樣的一個疑慮甚至我們這次的這個關稅戰爭裡面川普總統就講了其實各國對美國會用所謂的非關稅壁壘\n如果有這種保護境內去運用開源的軟體去獲得一些所謂的一些不公平的這種競爭其實這不是美國希望看到的這甚至對美國也不公平這其實不是一件非常好的事情而且剛剛講說好像日文抄襲我認為比日文抄襲還嚴重這是國家級的抄襲所以我希望這個真的部長一定要重視第二個形式的補正其實都沒有補正的好當然我知道今天已經補正完了\n相關的這個APA7 2.0已經改成MIT license我們都有看到但實際上整件事情還有非常多的地方要來檢討首先第一點最明確的大家網友最不能理解的是濫權封殺吹哨吹哨者我們大家可以看到這個有工程師因為這都是公開的我就不不引其名他說禁止他來使用在這裡我請部長看一下最下方左下角\n他禁止一家公司跟一個個人來使用這個開源授權做出來理論上也應該要開源的東西喔剛剛這個處長還有講其實我看處長在網路上的演講我覺得你也很專業但是我跟你說這沒有侵犯到商業的競爭嗎你要不要請美國律師確認一下這真的沒有觸犯到商業競爭嗎我們再看下一頁喔\n我覺得最可怕的是這位個人的這個處理的方式或工業院我覺得這也不是工業院的團隊待會我們會講整體的問題這個人的狀況其實是非常嚴重他甚至還講說因為這個個人之前有他是法人他是個人他之前有禁止我們工業院使用他的東西所以他現在知道錯了吧因為我現在也封鎖他了\n私人企業去做各種調整那是他家的事情啊你用公法人來對付司法人這對嗎所以我想為什麼剛剛有提到要做道歉美國律師也應該要重新了解這難道沒有牽涉到商業競爭嗎這甚至是一種報復的行為啊部長你要不要簡單講一下剛剛我是看您我不知道這個您是不是現在第一次知道\n這個狀況嚴重的程度你是不是現在第一次知道沒有我已經一開始的時候我想李處長就隨時一直跟我保持聯繫牽涉到商業競爭知道嗎委員剛剛提的的確很有道理啦就是說我們即使他公司同時不分啦我幫部長講不應該這樣的一個對應啦那個有是大家不同的立場所以我覺得說如果有我們如果他\n有他的一個不對我想我們這個部分會去會去那個這個跟他那個看看要辦理啦我覺得這不是個人的問題喔不要解決提出問題的人喔也不要只對個人處理喔這很可能是結構性的問題我先感謝衛福部跟委員週末都來發聲明啦但是有人說避重就輕啦剛剛講的這些報復的行為啦這種個人的這個狀況都沒有提到是怎麼樣\n個人行為個人單嗎那這樣我們也不用組織了嘛每個人都是客人我們也不用工業院我們也不用衛福部每個人都是客人就好啦當然不是嘛那我們現在看齁甚至呢還有這種貢獻者清單因為版本更新就直接移除了以前很多contributor我想這個一介也不是這樣看的嘛我們所有的這些東西都很感謝前面的尤其開源的軟體非常重視要留下來誰貢獻的每一個版本都要留下來\n為什麼移除呢所以我想為什麼我們今天一定要來跟大家來交流其實有幾個很明確的問題有一些細節請書面報告回覆我比如說部長您剛剛有說你一開始就知道什麼時候知道第二個現在這個專案到底是誰的是美國的還是衛福部的還是公研院的結果現在有錯推給個人拿來用的話就是變成衛福部的還是這是屬於公眾大眾的\n第二個相關合約有沒有要求衍生程式碼要揭露來源這東西有沒有要求有嗎有沒有要求有要求那這顯然就違約啊那有沒有違約的處理\n謝謝委員指教我們從這裡面也學到很多開源軟體是專門的知識那第一個就是說合約的部分交付的內容不是程式因為我們是衛福部所以交付的內容叫做標準\n所以說這些是他的唯一的東西是他開發這些標準的程式所以他這個是合約外的事情所以只做出標準要花八億是不是沒有沒有軟體這不是叫平台嗎沒有沒有我們是衛福部說我們要的是標準去統一全國台灣的電子病例那好那做出來的東西是誰好所以大平台跳完是誰的\n做平台的標準是全民的啊大平台本身這些軟體程式是誰的所以你說8億做出來就是標準不含軟體不含平台不含程式嘛確定喔要確定喔這個就是我們去查這個我們合約的交易項目就是標準更可怕囉\n部長你一定要關注啦這個專案到底怎麼發出去的我們花8億去做標準而且這個標準是衍生出自美國的開放標準現在做了一堆程式現在說也不是這個人的也不是工研院的也不是衛福部的也不是全民的\n那個東西花8億做完就沒了 是不是 就把它刪掉就好了 是嗎處長 講清楚喔 這個很危險喔第一個他現在這個做的開發的這些程式都是一個來自於美國 因為美國的標準我們現在全是去做那做出來的標準要本地化 所以要花很大的力氣去本地化然後第二個不是只有這個標準 整個8億裡面做很多的事情\n內容有沒有包含程式碼有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含這個線上平台沒有沒有沒有交付的內容就是50個標準和這個所謂的50條的就是這個台灣核心資料群有109個項目跟50個健保申報的一個電腦程式的一個標準交付的是這個東西那這個東西就公告全國我們從廠商到醫院都可以用這個標準來統一我們的內容\n所以全球網友都搞錯了好這個到底這個標準值不值8億沒關係還有AHRQ的來往韓文我們也需要知道啦齁這個保險假設真的有人來求償了怎麼辦誰付錢這也要知道這個以上回覆\n其實我們還有對不起主席給我一些時間因為這真的太重要了我們人民的血汗錢真的要被監督8億的總經費去年是4億加1.3億的追加然後今年又再來2.7億一共8億而且這兩年度的專案相似性很高大家一起去看了\n而且去年1.3億的追測經費執行期限竟然只有18天請問處長這是不是真的我們看到是不是我們是不是誤會對不起 因為這個很重要我請處長謝謝我也\n對 這個的確造成一些誤會容我在這邊澄清一下他所謂的追加是事實上前面因為我們要更改計畫我們去國科會報告了所以計畫更改了舊的英鎊事項很多拿掉所以先扣掉錢然後第二個新的英鎊事項在各位專家建議之下應該做得更好所以他把這個1.3億加回去結果前後比起來呢他們原始的經費還縮減也就是說他前面有先扣掉超過1.3億的經費那是本來\n所以總共執行不足8億嗎就是去年加起來是5.3億去年總共花不到5.3億嗎這個我們要給委員正式的提供報告來給委員我想其實昭偉剛好也站起來其實這個專案在預算上面\n沒有啦 在預算上啦其實我們蘇星泉 趙偉在今年的總預算就有提到這個專案我們也希望相關的弊病要了解有非常多的專案500萬一個月320萬不到一個月148萬7天這些東西很可能都是這是500萬30天的專案兩頁啊就發出去了而且很快速就完成了到底為什麼\n有很多希望能夠做到的建議我們提出來也希望相關書面來報告那我們也提出兩點具體訴求也希望你們待會去討論第一點我們希望成立開遠辦公室看是要部的還是院的還是工研院這裡來做我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情\n我的投影片變成黑幕沒關係再來第二點啦公共出資公共城市public money public code我們也希望公眾的錢的東西就不要亂歸屬不要亂報復我們希望回歸公眾我們也希望這個案子可以給我們很多很多的反省跟討論謝謝是的委員所要求我們會詳盡的報告\n也把整個事件做一個檢討跟經驗把整個國家在這一段的發展在專家們大家督促之下以及立法院督促教棉做得更好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.450 --> 00:11.706\n謝謝主席我們有請部長\n\n00:21.270 --> 00:43.431\n我想剛剛有聽到您的一些回應顯見您對FHIR的專案算是有一定的了解那我先講我們相信這個專案是出使利益良善那我相信也有非常多人在背後用心用力但是現在發生的狀況我想是非常多人都不願意看到網友甚至炸鍋那投影片不確定有沒有提出來\n\n00:44.432 --> 00:56.801\n那我想最重要的一個點我現在其實我也不去講抄襲我甚至只講挪用但是實際上在感受上在法律上確實有這樣的一個疑慮甚至我們這次的這個關稅戰爭裡面川普總統就講了其實各國對美國會用所謂的非關稅壁壘\n\n01:03.286 --> 01:22.132\n如果有這種保護境內去運用開源的軟體去獲得一些所謂的一些不公平的這種競爭其實這不是美國希望看到的這甚至對美國也不公平這其實不是一件非常好的事情而且剛剛講說好像日文抄襲我認為比日文抄襲還嚴重這是國家級的抄襲所以我希望這個真的部長一定要重視第二個形式的補正其實都沒有補正的好當然我知道今天已經補正完了\n\n01:32.395 --> 01:59.647\n相關的這個APA72.0已經改成MITlicense我們都有看到但實際上整件事情還有非常多的地方要來檢討首先第一點最明確的大家網友最不能理解的是濫權封殺吹哨吹哨者我們大家可以看到這個有工程師因為這都是公開的我就不不引其名他說禁止他來使用在這裡我請部長看一下最下方左下角\n\n02:00.507 --> 02:23.680\n他禁止一家公司跟一個個人來使用這個開源授權做出來理論上也應該要開源的東西喔剛剛這個處長還有講其實我看處長在網路上的演講我覺得你也很專業但是我跟你說這沒有侵犯到商業的競爭嗎你要不要請美國律師確認一下這真的沒有觸犯到商業競爭嗎我們再看下一頁喔\n\n02:24.620 --> 02:49.516\n我覺得最可怕的是這位個人的這個處理的方式或工業院我覺得這也不是工業院的團隊待會我們會講整體的問題這個人的狀況其實是非常嚴重他甚至還講說因為這個個人之前有他是法人他是個人他之前有禁止我們工業院使用他的東西所以他現在知道錯了吧因為我現在也封鎖他了\n\n02:52.313 --> 03:17.694\n私人企業去做各種調整那是他家的事情啊你用公法人來對付司法人這對嗎所以我想為什麼剛剛有提到要做道歉美國律師也應該要重新了解這難道沒有牽涉到商業競爭嗎這甚至是一種報復的行為啊部長你要不要簡單講一下剛剛我是看您我不知道這個您是不是現在第一次知道\n\n03:19.790 --> 03:47.748\n這個狀況嚴重的程度你是不是現在第一次知道沒有我已經一開始的時候我想李處長就隨時一直跟我保持聯繫牽涉到商業競爭知道嗎委員剛剛提的的確很有道理啦就是說我們即使他公司同時不分啦我幫部長講不應該這樣的一個對應啦那個有是大家不同的立場所以我覺得說如果有我們如果他\n\n03:48.891 --> 04:12.477\n有他的一個不對我想我們這個部分會去會去那個這個跟他那個看看要辦理啦我覺得這不是個人的問題喔不要解決提出問題的人喔也不要只對個人處理喔這很可能是結構性的問題我先感謝衛福部跟委員週末都來發聲明啦但是有人說避重就輕啦剛剛講的這些報復的行為啦這種個人的這個狀況都沒有提到是怎麼樣\n\n04:18.338 --> 04:45.734\n個人行為個人單嗎那這樣我們也不用組織了嘛每個人都是客人我們也不用工業院我們也不用衛福部每個人都是客人就好啦當然不是嘛那我們現在看齁甚至呢還有這種貢獻者清單因為版本更新就直接移除了以前很多contributor我想這個一介也不是這樣看的嘛我們所有的這些東西都很感謝前面的尤其開源的軟體非常重視要留下來誰貢獻的每一個版本都要留下來\n\n04:46.454 --> 05:15.431\n為什麼移除呢所以我想為什麼我們今天一定要來跟大家來交流其實有幾個很明確的問題有一些細節請書面報告回覆我比如說部長您剛剛有說你一開始就知道什麼時候知道第二個現在這個專案到底是誰的是美國的還是衛福部的還是公研院的結果現在有錯推給個人拿來用的話就是變成衛福部的還是這是屬於公眾大眾的\n\n05:15.871 --> 05:27.745\n第二個相關合約有沒有要求衍生程式碼要揭露來源這東西有沒有要求有嗎有沒有要求有要求那這顯然就違約啊那有沒有違約的處理\n\n05:33.932 --> 05:45.161\n謝謝委員指教我們從這裡面也學到很多開源軟體是專門的知識那第一個就是說合約的部分交付的內容不是程式因為我們是衛福部所以交付的內容叫做標準\n\n05:45.982 --> 06:02.840\n所以說這些是他的唯一的東西是他開發這些標準的程式所以他這個是合約外的事情所以只做出標準要花八億是不是沒有沒有軟體這不是叫平台嗎沒有沒有我們是衛福部說我們要的是標準去統一全國台灣的電子病例那好那做出來的東西是誰好所以大平台跳完是誰的\n\n06:04.111 --> 06:19.515\n做平台的標準是全民的啊大平台本身這些軟體程式是誰的所以你說8億做出來就是標準不含軟體不含平台不含程式嘛確定喔要確定喔這個就是我們去查這個我們合約的交易項目就是標準更可怕囉\n\n06:21.636 --> 06:37.606\n部長你一定要關注啦這個專案到底怎麼發出去的我們花8億去做標準而且這個標準是衍生出自美國的開放標準現在做了一堆程式現在說也不是這個人的也不是工研院的也不是衛福部的也不是全民的\n\n06:38.286 --> 07:01.749\n那個東西花8億做完就沒了是不是就把它刪掉就好了是嗎處長講清楚喔這個很危險喔第一個他現在這個做的開發的這些程式都是一個來自於美國因為美國的標準我們現在全是去做那做出來的標準要本地化所以要花很大的力氣去本地化然後第二個不是只有這個標準整個8億裡面做很多的事情\n\n07:03.090 --> 07:30.758\n內容有沒有包含程式碼有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含這個線上平台沒有沒有沒有交付的內容就是50個標準和這個所謂的50條的就是這個台灣核心資料群有109個項目跟50個健保申報的一個電腦程式的一個標準交付的是這個東西那這個東西就公告全國我們從廠商到醫院都可以用這個標準來統一我們的內容\n\n07:31.838 --> 07:48.159\n所以全球網友都搞錯了好這個到底這個標準值不值8億沒關係還有AHRQ的來往韓文我們也需要知道啦齁這個保險假設真的有人來求償了怎麼辦誰付錢這也要知道這個以上回覆\n\n07:49.120 --> 08:10.965\n其實我們還有對不起主席給我一些時間因為這真的太重要了我們人民的血汗錢真的要被監督8億的總經費去年是4億加1.3億的追加然後今年又再來2.7億一共8億而且這兩年度的專案相似性很高大家一起去看了\n\n08:11.445 --> 08:23.594\n而且去年1.3億的追測經費執行期限竟然只有18天請問處長這是不是真的我們看到是不是我們是不是誤會對不起因為這個很重要我請處長謝謝我也\n\n08:27.596 --> 08:53.803\n對這個的確造成一些誤會容我在這邊澄清一下他所謂的追加是事實上前面因為我們要更改計畫我們去國科會報告了所以計畫更改了舊的英鎊事項很多拿掉所以先扣掉錢然後第二個新的英鎊事項在各位專家建議之下應該做得更好所以他把這個1.3億加回去結果前後比起來呢他們原始的經費還縮減也就是說他前面有先扣掉超過1.3億的經費那是本來\n\n08:55.623 --> 09:13.795\n所以總共執行不足8億嗎就是去年加起來是5.3億去年總共花不到5.3億嗎這個我們要給委員正式的提供報告來給委員我想其實昭偉剛好也站起來其實這個專案在預算上面\n\n09:17.281 --> 09:41.921\n沒有啦在預算上啦其實我們蘇星泉趙偉在今年的總預算就有提到這個專案我們也希望相關的弊病要了解有非常多的專案500萬一個月320萬不到一個月148萬7天這些東西很可能都是這是500萬30天的專案兩頁啊就發出去了而且很快速就完成了到底為什麼\n\n09:42.722 --> 10:01.850\n有很多希望能夠做到的建議我們提出來也希望相關書面來報告那我們也提出兩點具體訴求也希望你們待會去討論第一點我們希望成立開遠辦公室看是要部的還是院的還是工研院這裡來做我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情\n\n10:02.550 --> 10:20.295\n我的投影片變成黑幕沒關係再來第二點啦公共出資公共城市publicmoneypubliccode我們也希望公眾的錢的東西就不要亂歸屬不要亂報復我們希望回歸公眾我們也希望這個案子可以給我們很多很多的反省跟討論謝謝是的委員所要求我們會詳盡的報告\n\n10:26.457 --> 10:37.932\n也把整個事件做一個檢討跟經驗把整個國家在這一段的發展在專家們大家督促之下以及立法院督促教棉做得更好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.45,"end":11.706,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長"},{"start":21.27,"end":43.431,"text":"我想剛剛有聽到您的一些回應顯見您對FHIR的專案算是有一定的了解那我先講我們相信這個專案是出使利益良善那我相信也有非常多人在背後用心用力但是現在發生的狀況我想是非常多人都不願意看到網友甚至炸鍋那投影片不確定有沒有提出來"},{"start":44.432,"end":56.801,"text":"那我想最重要的一個點我現在其實我也不去講抄襲我甚至只講挪用但是實際上在感受上在法律上確實有這樣的一個疑慮甚至我們這次的這個關稅戰爭裡面川普總統就講了其實各國對美國會用所謂的非關稅壁壘"},{"start":63.286,"end":82.132,"text":"如果有這種保護境內去運用開源的軟體去獲得一些所謂的一些不公平的這種競爭其實這不是美國希望看到的這甚至對美國也不公平這其實不是一件非常好的事情而且剛剛講說好像日文抄襲我認為比日文抄襲還嚴重這是國家級的抄襲所以我希望這個真的部長一定要重視第二個形式的補正其實都沒有補正的好當然我知道今天已經補正完了"},{"start":92.395,"end":119.647,"text":"相關的這個APA7 2.0已經改成MIT license我們都有看到但實際上整件事情還有非常多的地方要來檢討首先第一點最明確的大家網友最不能理解的是濫權封殺吹哨吹哨者我們大家可以看到這個有工程師因為這都是公開的我就不不引其名他說禁止他來使用在這裡我請部長看一下最下方左下角"},{"start":120.507,"end":143.68,"text":"他禁止一家公司跟一個個人來使用這個開源授權做出來理論上也應該要開源的東西喔剛剛這個處長還有講其實我看處長在網路上的演講我覺得你也很專業但是我跟你說這沒有侵犯到商業的競爭嗎你要不要請美國律師確認一下這真的沒有觸犯到商業競爭嗎我們再看下一頁喔"},{"start":144.62,"end":169.516,"text":"我覺得最可怕的是這位個人的這個處理的方式或工業院我覺得這也不是工業院的團隊待會我們會講整體的問題這個人的狀況其實是非常嚴重他甚至還講說因為這個個人之前有他是法人他是個人他之前有禁止我們工業院使用他的東西所以他現在知道錯了吧因為我現在也封鎖他了"},{"start":172.313,"end":197.694,"text":"私人企業去做各種調整那是他家的事情啊你用公法人來對付司法人這對嗎所以我想為什麼剛剛有提到要做道歉美國律師也應該要重新了解這難道沒有牽涉到商業競爭嗎這甚至是一種報復的行為啊部長你要不要簡單講一下剛剛我是看您我不知道這個您是不是現在第一次知道"},{"start":199.79,"end":227.748,"text":"這個狀況嚴重的程度你是不是現在第一次知道沒有我已經一開始的時候我想李處長就隨時一直跟我保持聯繫牽涉到商業競爭知道嗎委員剛剛提的的確很有道理啦就是說我們即使他公司同時不分啦我幫部長講不應該這樣的一個對應啦那個有是大家不同的立場所以我覺得說如果有我們如果他"},{"start":228.891,"end":252.477,"text":"有他的一個不對我想我們這個部分會去會去那個這個跟他那個看看要辦理啦我覺得這不是個人的問題喔不要解決提出問題的人喔也不要只對個人處理喔這很可能是結構性的問題我先感謝衛福部跟委員週末都來發聲明啦但是有人說避重就輕啦剛剛講的這些報復的行為啦這種個人的這個狀況都沒有提到是怎麼樣"},{"start":258.338,"end":285.734,"text":"個人行為個人單嗎那這樣我們也不用組織了嘛每個人都是客人我們也不用工業院我們也不用衛福部每個人都是客人就好啦當然不是嘛那我們現在看齁甚至呢還有這種貢獻者清單因為版本更新就直接移除了以前很多contributor我想這個一介也不是這樣看的嘛我們所有的這些東西都很感謝前面的尤其開源的軟體非常重視要留下來誰貢獻的每一個版本都要留下來"},{"start":286.454,"end":315.431,"text":"為什麼移除呢所以我想為什麼我們今天一定要來跟大家來交流其實有幾個很明確的問題有一些細節請書面報告回覆我比如說部長您剛剛有說你一開始就知道什麼時候知道第二個現在這個專案到底是誰的是美國的還是衛福部的還是公研院的結果現在有錯推給個人拿來用的話就是變成衛福部的還是這是屬於公眾大眾的"},{"start":315.871,"end":327.745,"text":"第二個相關合約有沒有要求衍生程式碼要揭露來源這東西有沒有要求有嗎有沒有要求有要求那這顯然就違約啊那有沒有違約的處理"},{"start":333.932,"end":345.161,"text":"謝謝委員指教我們從這裡面也學到很多開源軟體是專門的知識那第一個就是說合約的部分交付的內容不是程式因為我們是衛福部所以交付的內容叫做標準"},{"start":345.982,"end":362.84,"text":"所以說這些是他的唯一的東西是他開發這些標準的程式所以他這個是合約外的事情所以只做出標準要花八億是不是沒有沒有軟體這不是叫平台嗎沒有沒有我們是衛福部說我們要的是標準去統一全國台灣的電子病例那好那做出來的東西是誰好所以大平台跳完是誰的"},{"start":364.111,"end":379.515,"text":"做平台的標準是全民的啊大平台本身這些軟體程式是誰的所以你說8億做出來就是標準不含軟體不含平台不含程式嘛確定喔要確定喔這個就是我們去查這個我們合約的交易項目就是標準更可怕囉"},{"start":381.636,"end":397.606,"text":"部長你一定要關注啦這個專案到底怎麼發出去的我們花8億去做標準而且這個標準是衍生出自美國的開放標準現在做了一堆程式現在說也不是這個人的也不是工研院的也不是衛福部的也不是全民的"},{"start":398.286,"end":421.749,"text":"那個東西花8億做完就沒了 是不是 就把它刪掉就好了 是嗎處長 講清楚喔 這個很危險喔第一個他現在這個做的開發的這些程式都是一個來自於美國 因為美國的標準我們現在全是去做那做出來的標準要本地化 所以要花很大的力氣去本地化然後第二個不是只有這個標準 整個8億裡面做很多的事情"},{"start":423.09,"end":450.758,"text":"內容有沒有包含程式碼有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含平台軟體有沒有包含這個線上平台沒有沒有沒有交付的內容就是50個標準和這個所謂的50條的就是這個台灣核心資料群有109個項目跟50個健保申報的一個電腦程式的一個標準交付的是這個東西那這個東西就公告全國我們從廠商到醫院都可以用這個標準來統一我們的內容"},{"start":451.838,"end":468.159,"text":"所以全球網友都搞錯了好這個到底這個標準值不值8億沒關係還有AHRQ的來往韓文我們也需要知道啦齁這個保險假設真的有人來求償了怎麼辦誰付錢這也要知道這個以上回覆"},{"start":469.12,"end":490.965,"text":"其實我們還有對不起主席給我一些時間因為這真的太重要了我們人民的血汗錢真的要被監督8億的總經費去年是4億加1.3億的追加然後今年又再來2.7億一共8億而且這兩年度的專案相似性很高大家一起去看了"},{"start":491.445,"end":503.594,"text":"而且去年1.3億的追測經費執行期限竟然只有18天請問處長這是不是真的我們看到是不是我們是不是誤會對不起 因為這個很重要我請處長謝謝我也"},{"start":507.596,"end":533.803,"text":"對 這個的確造成一些誤會容我在這邊澄清一下他所謂的追加是事實上前面因為我們要更改計畫我們去國科會報告了所以計畫更改了舊的英鎊事項很多拿掉所以先扣掉錢然後第二個新的英鎊事項在各位專家建議之下應該做得更好所以他把這個1.3億加回去結果前後比起來呢他們原始的經費還縮減也就是說他前面有先扣掉超過1.3億的經費那是本來"},{"start":535.623,"end":553.795,"text":"所以總共執行不足8億嗎就是去年加起來是5.3億去年總共花不到5.3億嗎這個我們要給委員正式的提供報告來給委員我想其實昭偉剛好也站起來其實這個專案在預算上面"},{"start":557.281,"end":581.921,"text":"沒有啦 在預算上啦其實我們蘇星泉 趙偉在今年的總預算就有提到這個專案我們也希望相關的弊病要了解有非常多的專案500萬一個月320萬不到一個月148萬7天這些東西很可能都是這是500萬30天的專案兩頁啊就發出去了而且很快速就完成了到底為什麼"},{"start":582.722,"end":601.85,"text":"有很多希望能夠做到的建議我們提出來也希望相關書面來報告那我們也提出兩點具體訴求也希望你們待會去討論第一點我們希望成立開遠辦公室看是要部的還是院的還是工研院這裡來做我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":602.55,"end":620.295,"text":"我的投影片變成黑幕沒關係再來第二點啦公共出資公共城市public money public code我們也希望公眾的錢的東西就不要亂歸屬不要亂報復我們希望回歸公眾我們也希望這個案子可以給我們很多很多的反省跟討論謝謝是的委員所要求我們會詳盡的報告"},{"start":626.457,"end":637.932,"text":"也把整個事件做一個檢討跟經驗把整個國家在這一段的發展在專家們大家督促之下以及立法院督促教棉做得更好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":326,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時45分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["葛委員如鈞：早，剛剛有聽到您的回應，顯見您對FHIR專案算是有一定的了解，我們相信這個專案是初始立意良善，我相信也有非常多人在背後用心、用力，但是現在發生的狀況，我想是非常多人都不願意看到，網友甚至炸鍋。最重要的點，我也不講抄襲，甚至只是講挪用，但實際在感受上、法律上確實有這樣的疑慮，甚至這次的關稅戰爭裡面，川普總統就講各國對美國會用非關稅壁壘，如果有這種保護境內運用開源軟體去獲得一些不公平的競爭，這不是美國希望看到，這甚至對美國也不公平，這不是一件非常好的事情。剛剛有委員講好像論文抄襲，我認為比論文抄襲還嚴重，這是國家級的抄襲，所以我希望這件事，部長真的一定要重視。","第二個，形式的補正都沒有補正好，當然我知道今天已經補正完，相關的Apache 2.0已經改成MIT license，我們都有看到，但實際上整件事情還有非常多地方要檢討。","首先第一點，最明確的，大家網友最不能理解的是濫權封殺吹哨者，大家可以看到，因為這個都是公開的，我就不隱其名，有工程師說禁止他使用，請部長看一下最下方左下角，他禁止一家公司跟一個個人來使用這個開源授權做出來理論上也應該要開源的東西。其實我有看處長在網路上的演講，我覺得你也很專業，但我跟你說，這沒有侵犯到商業的競爭嗎？你要不要請美國律師確認一下，這真的沒有觸犯到商業競爭嗎？我們再看下一頁，我覺得最可怕的是對這個人處理的方式或工研院，我覺得這也不是工研院的團隊，待會我們會講整體的問題，這個人的狀況其實非常嚴重，甚至說因為他（他是法人、他是個人）之前有禁止工研院使用他的東西，現在知道錯了吧！因為我現在也封鎖他了。私人企業去做各種調整，那是他家的事情，你用公法人來對付私法人，這樣對嗎？為什麼剛剛有提到要道歉，美國律師也應該要重新了解，這難道沒有牽涉到商業競爭嗎？這甚至是一種報復的行為！部長，你要不要簡單講一下？這個狀況跟嚴重的程度，你是不是第一次知道？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，一開始的時候，李處長隨時一直跟我保持聯繫。"],["葛委員如鈞：牽涉到商業競爭，知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：委員剛剛提的很有道理，就是我們即使他公、私……"],["葛委員如鈞：我幫部長講，公私不分啦！"],["邱部長泰源：不應該這樣的對應，是大家不同的立場，所以我覺得如果他有不對，我想我們這個部分會辦理。"],["葛委員如鈞：我覺得這不是個人的問題，不要解決提出問題的人，也不要只對個人處理，這很可能是結構性的問題。","我先感謝衛福部、工研院周末都還發聲明，但是有人說避重就輕，剛剛講的報復的行為，個人的狀況都沒有提到，是怎樣？個人行為個人擔嗎？這樣我們也不用組織了，每個人都是個人，我們也不用工研院，我們也不用衛福部，每個人都是個人就好啦！當然不是嘛！","甚至還有貢獻者清單，因為版本更新就直接移除，以前很多contributor，我想醫界也不是這樣看的，所有的這些東西都很感謝前面的付出，尤其開源的軟體非常重視要留下來，誰貢獻的，每一個版本都要留下來，為什麼移除？為什麼我今天一定要來跟大家交流，有幾個很明確的問題，有一些細節請書面報告回復我，比如部長剛剛有說你一開始就知道，什麼時候知道？第二個，現在這個專案到底是誰的？是美國的還是衛福部的還是工研院的？結果現在有錯推給個人，拿來用的就是變成衛福部的，還是這是屬於公眾、大眾的？第二個，相關合約有沒有要求衍生程式碼要揭露來源？這個東西有沒有要求？有嗎？有沒有要求？有要求？那這顯然就違約啦！那有沒有違約的處理？"],["邱部長泰源：請處長……"],["葛委員如鈞：對，請處長簡要回復，我時間有限，不好意思。"],["李處長建璋：謝謝委員指教，我們從這裡面也學到很多開源軟體的專門知識，第一個就是說……"],["葛委員如鈞：合約。"],["李處長建璋：合約的部分，交付的內容不是程式，因為我們是衛福部，所以交付的內容叫做標準，所以說這些是他的……違約的東西是開發這些標準的程式，所以這個是合約外的……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以只做出標準要花8億，是不是？沒有軟體，這不是平臺嗎？"],["李處長建璋：不、不、不，我們是衛福部，所以我們要的是標準去統一全國臺灣的電子病歷。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，那做出來的東西是誰的？所以大平臺做完是誰的？"],["李處長建璋：平臺的標準是全民的。"],["葛委員如鈞：大平臺本身，這些軟體程式是誰的？所以你說8億做出來就是標準？"],["李處長建璋：對、對、對。"],["葛委員如鈞：不含軟體、不含平臺、不含程式碼，確定喔！要確喔！"],["李處長建璋：對，就是我們去查合約的交付項目就是標準……"],["葛委員如鈞：哇！那這個更可怕了！部長，你一定要關注啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：專案到底怎麼發出去的，我們花8億去做標準，而且這個標準是衍生自美國的開放標準，現在做了一堆程式，現在說也不是這個人的，也不是工研院的，也不是衛福部的，也不是全民的，那個東西花8億做完就沒了，是不是就把它刪掉就好了，是嗎？處長講清楚，這個很危險。"],["李處長建璋：補充說明，第一個，他現在做的、開發的這些程式都是來自於美國，因為美國的標準，我們現在全力去做，做出來的標準要本地化，所以要花很大的力氣去本地化，第二個，不是只有這個標準，整個8億裡面做很多的事情……"],["葛委員如鈞：交付內容有沒有包含程式碼？有沒有包含平臺？"],["李處長建璋：沒有，我們就去檢視……"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有包含平臺軟體？有沒有包含這個線上平臺？"],["李處長建璋：沒有，交付的內容就是50個標準和所謂50條的……就是這個臺灣核心資料群有109個項目跟50個健保申報的電腦程式的標準，交付的是這個東西，那這個東西就公告全國，我們從廠商到醫院都可以用這個標準來統一我們的內容。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以全球網友都搞錯了，到底這個標準值不值8億？沒關係，還有AHRQ的來往函文，我們也需要知道啦！假設這個保險真的有人來求償了，要怎麼辦？誰付錢？這也要知道，以上請回復。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，主席再給我一些時間，因為這真的太重要了，我們人民的血汗錢真的要被監督，8億的總經費，去年是4億加1.3億的追加，然後今年又再來2.7億，一共8億，而且這兩年度的專案相似性很高，大家已經去看了，而且去年1.3億的追加經費，執行期限竟然只有18天，請問處長這是不是真的？我們是不是誤會了？對不起，因為這個很重要，白紙黑字喔！"],["邱部長泰源：我知道，因為這很重要，我請處長報告。"],["李處長建璋：謝謝委員。對，這個的確造成一些誤會，容我在這邊澄清一下。他所謂的追加，事實上是因為前面我們要更改計畫，我們去國科會報告了，所以計畫更改了，很多舊的應辦事項被拿掉，所以先扣掉錢，第二個，新的應辦事項在各位專家建議之下，應該做得更好，所以他把這1.3億加回去，結果前後比起來，他們原始的經費還縮減，也就是說，他前面有先扣掉超過1.3億的經費，那是本來合約就要做的……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以總共執行不足8億嗎？就是去年不到4……"],["李處長建璋：不足。"],["葛委員如鈞：加起來是5.3億？"],["李處長建璋：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：去年總共花不到5.3億嗎？"],["李處長建璋：這個我們要給委員正式的……"],["葛委員如鈞：這些正式的提供一下，好不好？"],["李處長建璋：對，再提供報告給委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，召委剛好也站起來了，其實這個專案在預算上面……沒有，在預算上，其實蘇清泉召委在今年的總預算時就有提到這個專案，我們也希望了解相關的弊病，有非常多的專案，500萬一個月，320萬不到一個月，148萬七天，這些東西很可能都是……像這是500萬三十天的專案，兩頁，就發出去了，而且很快速就完成了，到底為什麼？有很多希望能夠做到的建議，我們提出來，也希望有相關的書面報告，我們也提出兩點具體訴求，也希望你們帶回去討論。","第一點，我們希望成立開源辦公室，看是要部的還是院的還是工研院這裡來做，我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情，我的投影片變成黑幕，沒關係。再來第二點，公共出資、公共程式（Public Money、Public Code），我們也希望公眾的錢、東西就不要亂歸屬，不要亂報復，我們希望回歸公眾，我們也希望這個案子可以給我們很多很多的反省跟討論，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，委員所要求的我們會詳盡的報告，也把整個事件做一個檢討，並作為跟經驗，把整個國家在這一方面的發展，在專家們大家督促之下以及立法院的督促之下，我們把它做得更好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員，這個太專業了，上了一課，謝謝部長。接續請劉建國召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}}