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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 409.89, \"end\": 410.03, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 410.03, \"end\": 410.15, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 410.15, \"end\": 410.711, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 410.711, \"end\": 410.951, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 410.951, \"end\": 411.091, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 411.091, \"end\": 411.451, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 411.451, \"end\": 412.352, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 412.352, \"end\": 412.492, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 412.492, \"end\": 413.253, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 413.253, \"end\": 413.433, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 413.433, \"end\": 414.054, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 414.054, \"end\": 414.594, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 414.594, \"end\": 414.754, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 414.754, \"end\": 415.195, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 415.195, \"end\": 415.515, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 415.515, \"end\": 416.095, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 416.095, \"end\": 416.336, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 416.336, \"end\": 417.036, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 417.036, \"end\": 417.336, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 417.336, \"end\": 417.557, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 417.557, \"end\": 417.937, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 417.937, \"end\": 418.177, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 418.177, \"end\": 418.437, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 418.437, \"end\": 419.078, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 419.078, \"end\": 419.358, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 419.358, \"end\": 419.478, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 419.478, \"end\": 419.558, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 419.558, \"end\": 419.578, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 421.102, \"end\": 440.713, \"text\": \"進度啦 方法就法務部也沒辦法去指揮啦就各地的檢察官自己去用嘛那跟各地方法院之間要不要做強制處分那也都是個案啦好 那我再問一個問題就是說在這些案子裡頭提供名冊啦提供名冊有很多種啦去郵輪的名冊啦什麼社團的名冊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 421.102, \"end\": 421.282, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 421.282, \"end\": 421.542, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 421.542, \"end\": 421.763, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 421.763, \"end\": 422.003, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 422.003, \"end\": 422.643, \"score\": 0.994}, 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\"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 608.411, \"end\": 608.531, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 608.531, \"end\": 608.931, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 608.931, \"end\": 608.951, \"score\": 0.151}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,778 --> 00:00:23,682\n主席我們請中選會麻煩中選會上台委員早安\n\n2\n00:00:24,244 --> 00:00:52,543\n好你好請問一下這個我們的第一階段連署的時候啊各地的選委會相關的選委會他們都有會整成一個報表到中選會那裡面會載明有多少死亡連署多少偽造情勢嘛那這個送到你們那裡去之後啊你們下一步針對他講的死亡連署你們會再做任何查證的動作嗎\n\n3\n00:00:54,950 --> 00:01:16,782\n因為這是地方選委會還有互證機關查證的一個結果那我們會把這樣子的一個查證結果跟請委員會做審議那如果經過委員會審議通過的話我們就會把這樣子的一個疑似有偽造情勢的部分移送檢查那你們有看到偽造情勢的內容嗎\n\n4\n00:01:19,582 --> 00:01:37,468\n那個選委會送上來的時候他們會把那種疑似偽造的名冊也會就是也會附在裡面也會附在裡面是那現在偽造情勢啊好像你們有一欄叫做偽造情勢嘛是偽造情勢的樣態大概是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:39,093 --> 00:01:53,923\n偽造情勢的樣態比較明顯的是死亡提議的這一個部分死亡提議是在另外一欄你們那個表的最後面才是偽造情勢嘛那死亡連署在比較靠左邊的那一欄\n\n6\n00:01:54,683 --> 00:02:14,065\n那最右邊那一欄有這個偽造情勢那你們就把這個偽造情勢移給了最高檢嘛對不對那個偽造情勢的樣態有哪些我們大部分看到的通常都是比如說像提議的書表感覺說不同的提議人但是他們的筆跡都是相\n\n7\n00:02:15,146 --> 00:02:44,293\n看起來那個筆跡筆觸都是相同筆跡是指前面的資料還是後面的簽名都有都有對對對那這種案子你們就認為就是說這個偽造情事然後就送給最高檢當然報告委員因為我們選委會當然我們不是認定有偽造沒有偽造的一個機關啦但是只是站在選委會的一個立場會覺得說就是會有疑似偽造這樣子的一個嫌疑啦\n\n8\n00:02:44,693 --> 00:02:55,141\n那你們會對各地方選委會送上來說認為這個偽造情勢啊你們覺得這不算偽造啊這哪算偽造你們會自己去過濾這件事嗎\n\n9\n00:02:58,188 --> 00:03:20,956\n報告委員我們目前就是說我們目前是沒有看到那種明明看起來不是沒有疑似偽造完全沒有疑似偽造的狀況但是選委會又硬把它送上來的是沒有這樣子的一個狀況那你們也沒有譬如說他寫了100件偽造那你們就100件就通通送給最高檢了你們這裡頭有沒有徵檢過\n\n10\n00:03:25,510 --> 00:03:41,291\n譬如說某一個選委會他說我們這一行有一百件尾照他送上來的報表一百件尾照包括後面的資料那你們看完之後說沒有啊這兩件就不是啊所以我們改送出去給最高檢的時候變成九十八件有沒有這樣\n\n11\n00:03:43,317 --> 00:04:07,350\n對不起因為這是我們另外一個處事的業務啦但是以我們以我們移送的以我們在做移送的這件事來講的話因為學友會送上來的一定都是有疑似偽造的一個狀況啦是沒有碰到好那簡單講就是中選會基本上你們就是看資料你們也不會再有另外一個\n\n12\n00:04:08,270 --> 00:04:24,395\n階段的查證的作為啦我們會提委員會審議委員會也是看資料嘛委員會當場也不會去做任何的查證啦對不對因為你們沒有查證能力啊沒錯吧OK好那接下來我們請這個法務部\n\n13\n00:04:33,076 --> 00:05:01,019\n委員好部長這個中選會把這些偽造情事按照他們的說法送給了最高檢那最高檢會分到各地方的檢察署嘛那各地的檢察署就開始啟動相關的調查那這些調查現在出現了這些樣態因為有不同的地方的相關人員有些被強制處分了對吧那\n\n14\n00:05:02,250 --> 00:05:27,700\n各地的檢察官有各地檢察官偵辦的方法手錄啦大家風化不一樣那是個案的做法他也會啟動不同的方式啦這個算是很正常好那各地都假設各地都查完了也大概有一個段落了請問法務部或最高檢或哪一個單位啊會去\n\n15\n00:05:30,838 --> 00:05:43,936\n發現說欸為什麼A地檢署查了是這樣B地檢署查了這樣C地檢署查了這樣欸他們都長得很像欸會不會有另外一組人發現他們查得很像所以把它視為組織犯罪\n\n16\n00:05:47,131 --> 00:06:05,966\n這部分當然每個個案的證據情況是不一樣那組織犯罪有組織犯罪的一個過程要見但是如果說這裡面有合乎到組織犯罪過程要見當然這部分就檢察官就會去處理這個查到底有沒有這個組織犯罪的一個成立的問題那這個會是另外一組檢察官嗎\n\n17\n00:06:11,018 --> 00:06:34,396\n因為你現在發給各地嘛,A地檢署、B地檢署、C地檢署嘛那這個地檢署他們都在辦嘛,那都在辦呢辦完之後,會不會有一個什麼會長的平台,哎喲,你那邊也這樣,我們這裡也是這樣,他們那邊也這樣那會不會有這樣的一個,我講機制好了,會不會有這樣的一個機制去把這些事情看一看,哎喲,好像是同樣的手法\n\n18\n00:06:35,197 --> 00:06:59,578\n那另外又起一個案子把這些同樣的手法呢再去偵辦呃這個最高檢是那個屬於督導機關嘛齁就是在選罷案件的一個督導機關如果說我向委員講這個情況我相信最高檢一定會做一個統合的一個一個做一個一個討論做一個規劃OK好所以現在還是各地各地的檢察署在偵辦好那在偵辦的\n\n19\n00:07:01,102 --> 00:07:20,713\n進度啦方法就法務部也沒辦法去指揮啦就各地的檢察官自己去用嘛那跟各地方法院之間要不要做強制處分那也都是個案啦好那我再問一個問題就是說在這些案子裡頭提供名冊啦提供名冊有很多種啦去郵輪的名冊啦什麼社團的名冊\n\n20\n00:07:23,394 --> 00:07:41,390\n提供名冊沒有當事人同意然後就交給了某一個人然後那個人就去抄了所謂的聯署書也沒有徵得原來的人同意啦我把它切清楚說提供名冊的這些人他在法律上會違反什麼規定提供名冊看有沒有那個違照\n\n21\n00:07:42,533 --> 00:07:57,597\n簽章或者死亡連署的一個情形那如果單純的這個送他沒有去參與這個行為那可能這部分就會比較沒辦法去成立這個犯罪除非有共同範例的一個聯絡OK就是說我把這個名冊交給一組人不要一直給我偷給我你要給我什麼名冊給我然後我就把這個名冊給了這一組人那這組人要去幹什麼\n\n22\n00:08:05,899 --> 00:08:25,071\n我也沒事就對了這組人去做了什麼壞事我有關嗎就要看有沒有共同範囍的聯絡有沒有共同範囍的聯絡這個要去查個案去做一個檢查要去認定那拿到這個名冊的人他就開始抄寫個人的資料抄完之後後面又去偽造簽名\n\n23\n00:08:26,345 --> 00:08:45,583\n那這一塊這一塊就是這一個偽造文書對不對那這個偽造文書是抄一筆就一條罪還是這整個案子假設我負責抄一百筆那我還是我是一百條罪還是我還是只有一條罪這個是一筆一罪一罪一划嘛因為他那個備案是單獨的\n\n24\n00:08:47,028 --> 00:09:04,687\n一個個人資料是一個人是專屬他的個人資料嘛對所以是抄一個應該是我的看法啦是一罪啦就是一人一罪有一個人被抄了然後這個人也不知道那不知道那他去抄了就講違照他的簽名那負責抄了這個人\n\n25\n00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:22,798\n他就是一罪一罰一個名冊一個資料就一罰嘛好那第三組人是這樣就是說他這個拿到了這個抄的名冊的時候他也搞不清楚啦他也搞不清楚他就整宗抹去中選委可是他可能是領先人他是領先然後他把這一個\n\n26\n00:09:23,799 --> 00:09:39,428\n委員各支法或委召文書的這些資料拿去交給公務機關然後去申請一件事情這是提議嘛去申請一件事情在法律上這一組他們都沒有去連署喔他們就在想要拔的拔拔的去中選會中選會就把它收建了喔因為你們現在查都會去問那個送送的那個人嘛叫做領銜人嘛送的那個人這個人會不會有罪\n\n27\n00:09:49,677 --> 00:10:08,951\n就要看有沒有共同犯例的聯絡他知不知道這裡面是不是違照的簽章他如果知道他就有這當然是有共同犯例的聯絡他如果都不知道那不知道的話因為我們不處罰除非有過失的一個明文處罰過失的一個情形或者的話這個是就要看個案的一個好那我就問到這裡謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10778\t23682\t主席我們請中選會麻煩中選會上台委員早安\n24244\t52543\t好 你好 請問一下這個我們的第一階段連署的時候啊各地的選委會 相關的選委會他們都有會整成一個報表到中選會那裡面會載明有多少死亡連署 多少偽造情勢嘛那這個送到你們那裡去之後啊你們下一步針對他講的死亡連署你們會再做任何查證的動作嗎\n54950\t76782\t因為這是地方選委會還有互證機關查證的一個結果那我們會把這樣子的一個查證結果跟請委員會做審議那如果經過委員會審議通過的話我們就會把這樣子的一個疑似有偽造情勢的部分移送檢查那你們有看到偽造情勢的內容嗎\n79582\t97468\t那個選委會送上來的時候他們會把那種疑似偽造的名冊也會就是也會附在裡面也會附在裡面是那現在偽造情勢啊好像你們有一欄叫做偽造情勢嘛是偽造情勢的樣態大概是什麼\n99093\t113923\t偽造情勢的樣態比較明顯的是死亡提議的這一個部分死亡提議是在另外一欄你們那個表的最後面才是偽造情勢嘛那死亡連署在比較靠左邊的那一欄\n114683\t134065\t那最右邊那一欄有這個偽造情勢那你們就把這個偽造情勢移給了最高檢嘛 對不對那個偽造情勢的樣態有哪些我們大部分看到的通常都是比如說像提議的書表感覺說不同的提議人但是他們的筆跡都是相\n135146\t164293\t看起來那個筆跡筆觸都是相同筆跡是指前面的資料還是後面的簽名都有都有對對對那這種案子你們就認為就是說這個偽造情事然後就送給最高檢當然報告委員因為我們選委會當然我們不是認定有偽造沒有偽造的一個機關啦但是只是站在選委會的一個立場會覺得說就是會有疑似偽造這樣子的一個嫌疑啦\n164693\t175141\t那你們會對各地方選委會送上來說認為這個偽造情勢啊你們覺得這不算偽造啊這哪算偽造你們會自己去過濾這件事嗎\n178188\t200956\t報告委員我們目前就是說我們目前是沒有看到那種明明看起來不是沒有疑似偽造完全沒有疑似偽造的狀況但是選委會又硬把它送上來的是沒有這樣子的一個狀況那你們也沒有譬如說他寫了100件偽造那你們就100件就通通送給最高檢了你們這裡頭有沒有徵檢過\n205510\t221291\t譬如說某一個選委會他說我們這一行有一百件尾照他送上來的報表一百件尾照包括後面的資料那你們看完之後說沒有啊這兩件就不是啊所以我們改送出去給最高檢的時候變成九十八件有沒有這樣\n223317\t247350\t對不起因為這是我們另外一個處事的業務啦但是以我們以我們移送的以我們在做移送的這件事來講的話因為學友會送上來的一定都是有疑似偽造的一個狀況啦是沒有碰到好那簡單講就是中選會基本上你們就是看資料你們也不會再有另外一個\n248270\t264395\t階段的查證的作為啦我們會提委員會審議委員會也是看資料嘛委員會當場也不會去做任何的查證啦對不對因為你們沒有查證能力啊沒錯吧OK好那接下來我們請這個法務部\n273076\t301019\t委員好部長這個中選會把這些偽造情事按照他們的說法送給了最高檢那最高檢會分到各地方的檢察署嘛那各地的檢察署就開始啟動相關的調查那這些調查現在出現了這些樣態因為有不同的地方的相關人員有些被強制處分了對吧那\n302250\t327700\t各地的檢察官 有各地檢察官偵辦的方法手錄啦 大家風化不一樣那是個案的做法 他也會啟動不同的方式啦這個算是很正常 好那各地都 假設各地都查完了也大概有一個段落了請問法務部或最高檢或哪一個單位啊會去\n330838\t343936\t發現說 欸 為什麼A地檢署查了是這樣B地檢署查了這樣 C地檢署查了這樣欸 他們都長得很像欸會不會有另外一組人 發現他們查得很像所以把它視為組織犯罪\n347131\t365966\t這部分當然每個個案的證據情況是不一樣那組織犯罪有組織犯罪的一個過程要見但是如果說這裡面有合乎到組織犯罪過程要見當然這部分就檢察官就會去處理這個查到底有沒有這個組織犯罪的一個成立的問題那這個會是另外一組檢察官嗎\n371018\t394396\t因為你現在發給各地嘛,A地檢署、B地檢署、C地檢署嘛那這個地檢署他們都在辦嘛,那都在辦呢辦完之後,會不會有一個什麼會長的平台,哎喲,你那邊也這樣,我們這裡也是這樣,他們那邊也這樣那會不會有這樣的一個,我講機制好了,會不會有這樣的一個機制去把這些事情看一看,哎喲,好像是同樣的手法\n395197\t419578\t那另外又起一個案子 把這些同樣的手法呢 再去偵辦呃 這個最高檢是那個屬於督導機關嘛齁就是在選罷案件的一個督導機關如果說我向委員講這個情況 我相信最高檢一定會做一個統合的一個一個做一個一個討論 做一個規劃OK 好 所以現在還是各地各地的檢察署在偵辦 好 那在偵辦的\n421102\t440713\t進度啦 方法就法務部也沒辦法去指揮啦就各地的檢察官自己去用嘛那跟各地方法院之間要不要做強制處分那也都是個案啦好 那我再問一個問題就是說在這些案子裡頭提供名冊啦提供名冊有很多種啦去郵輪的名冊啦什麼社團的名冊\n443394\t461390\t提供名冊沒有當事人同意然後就交給了某一個人然後那個人就去抄了所謂的聯署書也沒有徵得原來的人同意啦我把它切清楚說提供名冊的這些人他在法律上會違反什麼規定提供名冊看有沒有那個違照\n462533\t477597\t簽章或者死亡連署的一個情形那如果單純的這個送他沒有去參與這個行為那可能這部分就會比較沒辦法去成立這個犯罪除非有共同範例的一個聯絡OK 就是說我把這個名冊交給一組人不要一直給我偷 給我 你要給我什麼名冊給我然後我就把這個名冊給了這一組人那這組人要去幹什麼\n485899\t505071\t我也沒事就對了這組人去做了什麼壞事我有關嗎就要看有沒有共同範囍的聯絡有沒有共同範囍的聯絡這個要去查個案去做一個檢查要去認定那拿到這個名冊的人他就開始抄寫個人的資料抄完之後後面又去偽造簽名\n506345\t525583\t那這一塊這一塊就是這一個偽造文書對不對那這個偽造文書是抄一筆就一條罪還是這整個案子假設我負責抄一百筆那我還是我是一百條罪還是我還是只有一條罪這個是一筆一罪一罪一划嘛因為他那個備案是單獨的\n527028\t544687\t一個個人資料是一個人是專屬他的個人資料嘛對所以是抄一個應該是我的看法啦是一罪啦就是一人一罪有一個人被抄了然後這個人也不知道那不知道那他去抄了就講違照他的簽名那負責抄了這個人\n545919\t562798\t他就是一罪一罰一個名冊一個資料就一罰嘛好那第三組人是這樣就是說他這個拿到了這個抄的名冊的時候他也搞不清楚啦他也搞不清楚他就整宗抹去中選委可是他可能是領先人他是領先然後他把這一個\n563799\t579428\t委員各支法或委召文書的這些資料拿去交給公務機關然後去申請一件事情 這是提議嘛 去申請一件事情在法律上這一組 他們都沒有去連署喔他們就在想要拔的拔拔的去中選會 中選會就把它收建了喔因為你們現在查都會去問那個送 送的那個人嘛 叫做領銜人嘛送的那個人 這個人會不會有罪\n589677\t608951\t就要看有沒有共同犯例的聯絡他知不知道這裡面是不是違照的簽章他如果知道他就有這當然是有共同犯例的聯絡他如果都不知道那不知道的話因為我們不處罰除非有過失的一個明文處罰過失的一個情形或者的話這個是就要看個案的一個好那我就問到這裡謝謝\n","txt":"主席我們請中選會麻煩中選會上台委員早安\n好 你好 請問一下這個我們的第一階段連署的時候啊各地的選委會 相關的選委會他們都有會整成一個報表到中選會那裡面會載明有多少死亡連署 多少偽造情勢嘛那這個送到你們那裡去之後啊你們下一步針對他講的死亡連署你們會再做任何查證的動作嗎\n因為這是地方選委會還有互證機關查證的一個結果那我們會把這樣子的一個查證結果跟請委員會做審議那如果經過委員會審議通過的話我們就會把這樣子的一個疑似有偽造情勢的部分移送檢查那你們有看到偽造情勢的內容嗎\n那個選委會送上來的時候他們會把那種疑似偽造的名冊也會就是也會附在裡面也會附在裡面是那現在偽造情勢啊好像你們有一欄叫做偽造情勢嘛是偽造情勢的樣態大概是什麼\n偽造情勢的樣態比較明顯的是死亡提議的這一個部分死亡提議是在另外一欄你們那個表的最後面才是偽造情勢嘛那死亡連署在比較靠左邊的那一欄\n那最右邊那一欄有這個偽造情勢那你們就把這個偽造情勢移給了最高檢嘛 對不對那個偽造情勢的樣態有哪些我們大部分看到的通常都是比如說像提議的書表感覺說不同的提議人但是他們的筆跡都是相\n看起來那個筆跡筆觸都是相同筆跡是指前面的資料還是後面的簽名都有都有對對對那這種案子你們就認為就是說這個偽造情事然後就送給最高檢當然報告委員因為我們選委會當然我們不是認定有偽造沒有偽造的一個機關啦但是只是站在選委會的一個立場會覺得說就是會有疑似偽造這樣子的一個嫌疑啦\n那你們會對各地方選委會送上來說認為這個偽造情勢啊你們覺得這不算偽造啊這哪算偽造你們會自己去過濾這件事嗎\n報告委員我們目前就是說我們目前是沒有看到那種明明看起來不是沒有疑似偽造完全沒有疑似偽造的狀況但是選委會又硬把它送上來的是沒有這樣子的一個狀況那你們也沒有譬如說他寫了100件偽造那你們就100件就通通送給最高檢了你們這裡頭有沒有徵檢過\n譬如說某一個選委會他說我們這一行有一百件尾照他送上來的報表一百件尾照包括後面的資料那你們看完之後說沒有啊這兩件就不是啊所以我們改送出去給最高檢的時候變成九十八件有沒有這樣\n對不起因為這是我們另外一個處事的業務啦但是以我們以我們移送的以我們在做移送的這件事來講的話因為學友會送上來的一定都是有疑似偽造的一個狀況啦是沒有碰到好那簡單講就是中選會基本上你們就是看資料你們也不會再有另外一個\n階段的查證的作為啦我們會提委員會審議委員會也是看資料嘛委員會當場也不會去做任何的查證啦對不對因為你們沒有查證能力啊沒錯吧OK好那接下來我們請這個法務部\n委員好部長這個中選會把這些偽造情事按照他們的說法送給了最高檢那最高檢會分到各地方的檢察署嘛那各地的檢察署就開始啟動相關的調查那這些調查現在出現了這些樣態因為有不同的地方的相關人員有些被強制處分了對吧那\n各地的檢察官 有各地檢察官偵辦的方法手錄啦 大家風化不一樣那是個案的做法 他也會啟動不同的方式啦這個算是很正常 好那各地都 假設各地都查完了也大概有一個段落了請問法務部或最高檢或哪一個單位啊會去\n發現說 欸 為什麼A地檢署查了是這樣B地檢署查了這樣 C地檢署查了這樣欸 他們都長得很像欸會不會有另外一組人 發現他們查得很像所以把它視為組織犯罪\n這部分當然每個個案的證據情況是不一樣那組織犯罪有組織犯罪的一個過程要見但是如果說這裡面有合乎到組織犯罪過程要見當然這部分就檢察官就會去處理這個查到底有沒有這個組織犯罪的一個成立的問題那這個會是另外一組檢察官嗎\n因為你現在發給各地嘛,A地檢署、B地檢署、C地檢署嘛那這個地檢署他們都在辦嘛,那都在辦呢辦完之後,會不會有一個什麼會長的平台,哎喲,你那邊也這樣,我們這裡也是這樣,他們那邊也這樣那會不會有這樣的一個,我講機制好了,會不會有這樣的一個機制去把這些事情看一看,哎喲,好像是同樣的手法\n那另外又起一個案子 把這些同樣的手法呢 再去偵辦呃 這個最高檢是那個屬於督導機關嘛齁就是在選罷案件的一個督導機關如果說我向委員講這個情況 我相信最高檢一定會做一個統合的一個一個做一個一個討論 做一個規劃OK 好 所以現在還是各地各地的檢察署在偵辦 好 那在偵辦的\n進度啦 方法就法務部也沒辦法去指揮啦就各地的檢察官自己去用嘛那跟各地方法院之間要不要做強制處分那也都是個案啦好 那我再問一個問題就是說在這些案子裡頭提供名冊啦提供名冊有很多種啦去郵輪的名冊啦什麼社團的名冊\n提供名冊沒有當事人同意然後就交給了某一個人然後那個人就去抄了所謂的聯署書也沒有徵得原來的人同意啦我把它切清楚說提供名冊的這些人他在法律上會違反什麼規定提供名冊看有沒有那個違照\n簽章或者死亡連署的一個情形那如果單純的這個送他沒有去參與這個行為那可能這部分就會比較沒辦法去成立這個犯罪除非有共同範例的一個聯絡OK 就是說我把這個名冊交給一組人不要一直給我偷 給我 你要給我什麼名冊給我然後我就把這個名冊給了這一組人那這組人要去幹什麼\n我也沒事就對了這組人去做了什麼壞事我有關嗎就要看有沒有共同範囍的聯絡有沒有共同範囍的聯絡這個要去查個案去做一個檢查要去認定那拿到這個名冊的人他就開始抄寫個人的資料抄完之後後面又去偽造簽名\n那這一塊這一塊就是這一個偽造文書對不對那這個偽造文書是抄一筆就一條罪還是這整個案子假設我負責抄一百筆那我還是我是一百條罪還是我還是只有一條罪這個是一筆一罪一罪一划嘛因為他那個備案是單獨的\n一個個人資料是一個人是專屬他的個人資料嘛對所以是抄一個應該是我的看法啦是一罪啦就是一人一罪有一個人被抄了然後這個人也不知道那不知道那他去抄了就講違照他的簽名那負責抄了這個人\n他就是一罪一罰一個名冊一個資料就一罰嘛好那第三組人是這樣就是說他這個拿到了這個抄的名冊的時候他也搞不清楚啦他也搞不清楚他就整宗抹去中選委可是他可能是領先人他是領先然後他把這一個\n委員各支法或委召文書的這些資料拿去交給公務機關然後去申請一件事情 這是提議嘛 去申請一件事情在法律上這一組 他們都沒有去連署喔他們就在想要拔的拔拔的去中選會 中選會就把它收建了喔因為你們現在查都會去問那個送 送的那個人嘛 叫做領銜人嘛送的那個人 這個人會不會有罪\n就要看有沒有共同犯例的聯絡他知不知道這裡面是不是違照的簽章他如果知道他就有這當然是有共同犯例的聯絡他如果都不知道那不知道的話因為我們不處罰除非有過失的一個明文處罰過失的一個情形或者的話這個是就要看個案的一個好那我就問到這裡謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.778 --> 00:23.682\n主席我們請中選會麻煩中選會上台委員早安\n\n00:24.244 --> 00:52.543\n好你好請問一下這個我們的第一階段連署的時候啊各地的選委會相關的選委會他們都有會整成一個報表到中選會那裡面會載明有多少死亡連署多少偽造情勢嘛那這個送到你們那裡去之後啊你們下一步針對他講的死亡連署你們會再做任何查證的動作嗎\n\n00:54.950 --> 01:16.782\n因為這是地方選委會還有互證機關查證的一個結果那我們會把這樣子的一個查證結果跟請委員會做審議那如果經過委員會審議通過的話我們就會把這樣子的一個疑似有偽造情勢的部分移送檢查那你們有看到偽造情勢的內容嗎\n\n01:19.582 --> 01:37.468\n那個選委會送上來的時候他們會把那種疑似偽造的名冊也會就是也會附在裡面也會附在裡面是那現在偽造情勢啊好像你們有一欄叫做偽造情勢嘛是偽造情勢的樣態大概是什麼\n\n01:39.093 --> 01:53.923\n偽造情勢的樣態比較明顯的是死亡提議的這一個部分死亡提議是在另外一欄你們那個表的最後面才是偽造情勢嘛那死亡連署在比較靠左邊的那一欄\n\n01:54.683 --> 02:14.065\n那最右邊那一欄有這個偽造情勢那你們就把這個偽造情勢移給了最高檢嘛對不對那個偽造情勢的樣態有哪些我們大部分看到的通常都是比如說像提議的書表感覺說不同的提議人但是他們的筆跡都是相\n\n02:15.146 --> 02:44.293\n看起來那個筆跡筆觸都是相同筆跡是指前面的資料還是後面的簽名都有都有對對對那這種案子你們就認為就是說這個偽造情事然後就送給最高檢當然報告委員因為我們選委會當然我們不是認定有偽造沒有偽造的一個機關啦但是只是站在選委會的一個立場會覺得說就是會有疑似偽造這樣子的一個嫌疑啦\n\n02:44.693 --> 02:55.141\n那你們會對各地方選委會送上來說認為這個偽造情勢啊你們覺得這不算偽造啊這哪算偽造你們會自己去過濾這件事嗎\n\n02:58.188 --> 03:20.956\n報告委員我們目前就是說我們目前是沒有看到那種明明看起來不是沒有疑似偽造完全沒有疑似偽造的狀況但是選委會又硬把它送上來的是沒有這樣子的一個狀況那你們也沒有譬如說他寫了100件偽造那你們就100件就通通送給最高檢了你們這裡頭有沒有徵檢過\n\n03:25.510 --> 03:41.291\n譬如說某一個選委會他說我們這一行有一百件尾照他送上來的報表一百件尾照包括後面的資料那你們看完之後說沒有啊這兩件就不是啊所以我們改送出去給最高檢的時候變成九十八件有沒有這樣\n\n03:43.317 --> 04:07.350\n對不起因為這是我們另外一個處事的業務啦但是以我們以我們移送的以我們在做移送的這件事來講的話因為學友會送上來的一定都是有疑似偽造的一個狀況啦是沒有碰到好那簡單講就是中選會基本上你們就是看資料你們也不會再有另外一個\n\n04:08.270 --> 04:24.395\n階段的查證的作為啦我們會提委員會審議委員會也是看資料嘛委員會當場也不會去做任何的查證啦對不對因為你們沒有查證能力啊沒錯吧OK好那接下來我們請這個法務部\n\n04:33.076 --> 05:01.019\n委員好部長這個中選會把這些偽造情事按照他們的說法送給了最高檢那最高檢會分到各地方的檢察署嘛那各地的檢察署就開始啟動相關的調查那這些調查現在出現了這些樣態因為有不同的地方的相關人員有些被強制處分了對吧那\n\n05:02.250 --> 05:27.700\n各地的檢察官有各地檢察官偵辦的方法手錄啦大家風化不一樣那是個案的做法他也會啟動不同的方式啦這個算是很正常好那各地都假設各地都查完了也大概有一個段落了請問法務部或最高檢或哪一個單位啊會去\n\n05:30.838 --> 05:43.936\n發現說欸為什麼A地檢署查了是這樣B地檢署查了這樣C地檢署查了這樣欸他們都長得很像欸會不會有另外一組人發現他們查得很像所以把它視為組織犯罪\n\n05:47.131 --> 06:05.966\n這部分當然每個個案的證據情況是不一樣那組織犯罪有組織犯罪的一個過程要見但是如果說這裡面有合乎到組織犯罪過程要見當然這部分就檢察官就會去處理這個查到底有沒有這個組織犯罪的一個成立的問題那這個會是另外一組檢察官嗎\n\n06:11.018 --> 06:34.396\n因為你現在發給各地嘛,A地檢署、B地檢署、C地檢署嘛那這個地檢署他們都在辦嘛,那都在辦呢辦完之後,會不會有一個什麼會長的平台,哎喲,你那邊也這樣,我們這裡也是這樣,他們那邊也這樣那會不會有這樣的一個,我講機制好了,會不會有這樣的一個機制去把這些事情看一看,哎喲,好像是同樣的手法\n\n06:35.197 --> 06:59.578\n那另外又起一個案子把這些同樣的手法呢再去偵辦呃這個最高檢是那個屬於督導機關嘛齁就是在選罷案件的一個督導機關如果說我向委員講這個情況我相信最高檢一定會做一個統合的一個一個做一個一個討論做一個規劃OK好所以現在還是各地各地的檢察署在偵辦好那在偵辦的\n\n07:01.102 --> 07:20.713\n進度啦方法就法務部也沒辦法去指揮啦就各地的檢察官自己去用嘛那跟各地方法院之間要不要做強制處分那也都是個案啦好那我再問一個問題就是說在這些案子裡頭提供名冊啦提供名冊有很多種啦去郵輪的名冊啦什麼社團的名冊\n\n07:23.394 --> 07:41.390\n提供名冊沒有當事人同意然後就交給了某一個人然後那個人就去抄了所謂的聯署書也沒有徵得原來的人同意啦我把它切清楚說提供名冊的這些人他在法律上會違反什麼規定提供名冊看有沒有那個違照\n\n07:42.533 --> 07:57.597\n簽章或者死亡連署的一個情形那如果單純的這個送他沒有去參與這個行為那可能這部分就會比較沒辦法去成立這個犯罪除非有共同範例的一個聯絡OK就是說我把這個名冊交給一組人不要一直給我偷給我你要給我什麼名冊給我然後我就把這個名冊給了這一組人那這組人要去幹什麼\n\n08:05.899 --> 08:25.071\n我也沒事就對了這組人去做了什麼壞事我有關嗎就要看有沒有共同範囍的聯絡有沒有共同範囍的聯絡這個要去查個案去做一個檢查要去認定那拿到這個名冊的人他就開始抄寫個人的資料抄完之後後面又去偽造簽名\n\n08:26.345 --> 08:45.583\n那這一塊這一塊就是這一個偽造文書對不對那這個偽造文書是抄一筆就一條罪還是這整個案子假設我負責抄一百筆那我還是我是一百條罪還是我還是只有一條罪這個是一筆一罪一罪一划嘛因為他那個備案是單獨的\n\n08:47.028 --> 09:04.687\n一個個人資料是一個人是專屬他的個人資料嘛對所以是抄一個應該是我的看法啦是一罪啦就是一人一罪有一個人被抄了然後這個人也不知道那不知道那他去抄了就講違照他的簽名那負責抄了這個人\n\n09:05.919 --> 09:22.798\n他就是一罪一罰一個名冊一個資料就一罰嘛好那第三組人是這樣就是說他這個拿到了這個抄的名冊的時候他也搞不清楚啦他也搞不清楚他就整宗抹去中選委可是他可能是領先人他是領先然後他把這一個\n\n09:23.799 --> 09:39.428\n委員各支法或委召文書的這些資料拿去交給公務機關然後去申請一件事情這是提議嘛去申請一件事情在法律上這一組他們都沒有去連署喔他們就在想要拔的拔拔的去中選會中選會就把它收建了喔因為你們現在查都會去問那個送送的那個人嘛叫做領銜人嘛送的那個人這個人會不會有罪\n\n09:49.677 --> 10:08.951\n就要看有沒有共同犯例的聯絡他知不知道這裡面是不是違照的簽章他如果知道他就有這當然是有共同犯例的聯絡他如果都不知道那不知道的話因為我們不處罰除非有過失的一個明文處罰過失的一個情形或者的話這個是就要看個案的一個好那我就問到這裡謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.778,"end":23.682,"text":"主席我們請中選會麻煩中選會上台委員早安"},{"start":24.244,"end":52.543,"text":"好 你好 請問一下這個我們的第一階段連署的時候啊各地的選委會 相關的選委會他們都有會整成一個報表到中選會那裡面會載明有多少死亡連署 多少偽造情勢嘛那這個送到你們那裡去之後啊你們下一步針對他講的死亡連署你們會再做任何查證的動作嗎"},{"start":54.95,"end":76.782,"text":"因為這是地方選委會還有互證機關查證的一個結果那我們會把這樣子的一個查證結果跟請委員會做審議那如果經過委員會審議通過的話我們就會把這樣子的一個疑似有偽造情勢的部分移送檢查那你們有看到偽造情勢的內容嗎"},{"start":79.582,"end":97.468,"text":"那個選委會送上來的時候他們會把那種疑似偽造的名冊也會就是也會附在裡面也會附在裡面是那現在偽造情勢啊好像你們有一欄叫做偽造情勢嘛是偽造情勢的樣態大概是什麼"},{"start":99.093,"end":113.923,"text":"偽造情勢的樣態比較明顯的是死亡提議的這一個部分死亡提議是在另外一欄你們那個表的最後面才是偽造情勢嘛那死亡連署在比較靠左邊的那一欄"},{"start":114.683,"end":134.065,"text":"那最右邊那一欄有這個偽造情勢那你們就把這個偽造情勢移給了最高檢嘛 對不對那個偽造情勢的樣態有哪些我們大部分看到的通常都是比如說像提議的書表感覺說不同的提議人但是他們的筆跡都是相"},{"start":135.146,"end":164.293,"text":"看起來那個筆跡筆觸都是相同筆跡是指前面的資料還是後面的簽名都有都有對對對那這種案子你們就認為就是說這個偽造情事然後就送給最高檢當然報告委員因為我們選委會當然我們不是認定有偽造沒有偽造的一個機關啦但是只是站在選委會的一個立場會覺得說就是會有疑似偽造這樣子的一個嫌疑啦"},{"start":164.693,"end":175.141,"text":"那你們會對各地方選委會送上來說認為這個偽造情勢啊你們覺得這不算偽造啊這哪算偽造你們會自己去過濾這件事嗎"},{"start":178.188,"end":200.956,"text":"報告委員我們目前就是說我們目前是沒有看到那種明明看起來不是沒有疑似偽造完全沒有疑似偽造的狀況但是選委會又硬把它送上來的是沒有這樣子的一個狀況那你們也沒有譬如說他寫了100件偽造那你們就100件就通通送給最高檢了你們這裡頭有沒有徵檢過"},{"start":205.51,"end":221.291,"text":"譬如說某一個選委會他說我們這一行有一百件尾照他送上來的報表一百件尾照包括後面的資料那你們看完之後說沒有啊這兩件就不是啊所以我們改送出去給最高檢的時候變成九十八件有沒有這樣"},{"start":223.317,"end":247.35,"text":"對不起因為這是我們另外一個處事的業務啦但是以我們以我們移送的以我們在做移送的這件事來講的話因為學友會送上來的一定都是有疑似偽造的一個狀況啦是沒有碰到好那簡單講就是中選會基本上你們就是看資料你們也不會再有另外一個"},{"start":248.27,"end":264.395,"text":"階段的查證的作為啦我們會提委員會審議委員會也是看資料嘛委員會當場也不會去做任何的查證啦對不對因為你們沒有查證能力啊沒錯吧OK好那接下來我們請這個法務部"},{"start":273.076,"end":301.019,"text":"委員好部長這個中選會把這些偽造情事按照他們的說法送給了最高檢那最高檢會分到各地方的檢察署嘛那各地的檢察署就開始啟動相關的調查那這些調查現在出現了這些樣態因為有不同的地方的相關人員有些被強制處分了對吧那"},{"start":302.25,"end":327.7,"text":"各地的檢察官 有各地檢察官偵辦的方法手錄啦 大家風化不一樣那是個案的做法 他也會啟動不同的方式啦這個算是很正常 好那各地都 假設各地都查完了也大概有一個段落了請問法務部或最高檢或哪一個單位啊會去"},{"start":330.838,"end":343.936,"text":"發現說 欸 為什麼A地檢署查了是這樣B地檢署查了這樣 C地檢署查了這樣欸 他們都長得很像欸會不會有另外一組人 發現他們查得很像所以把它視為組織犯罪"},{"start":347.131,"end":365.966,"text":"這部分當然每個個案的證據情況是不一樣那組織犯罪有組織犯罪的一個過程要見但是如果說這裡面有合乎到組織犯罪過程要見當然這部分就檢察官就會去處理這個查到底有沒有這個組織犯罪的一個成立的問題那這個會是另外一組檢察官嗎"},{"start":371.018,"end":394.396,"text":"因為你現在發給各地嘛,A地檢署、B地檢署、C地檢署嘛那這個地檢署他們都在辦嘛,那都在辦呢辦完之後,會不會有一個什麼會長的平台,哎喲,你那邊也這樣,我們這裡也是這樣,他們那邊也這樣那會不會有這樣的一個,我講機制好了,會不會有這樣的一個機制去把這些事情看一看,哎喲,好像是同樣的手法"},{"start":395.197,"end":419.578,"text":"那另外又起一個案子 把這些同樣的手法呢 再去偵辦呃 這個最高檢是那個屬於督導機關嘛齁就是在選罷案件的一個督導機關如果說我向委員講這個情況 我相信最高檢一定會做一個統合的一個一個做一個一個討論 做一個規劃OK 好 所以現在還是各地各地的檢察署在偵辦 好 那在偵辦的"},{"start":421.102,"end":440.713,"text":"進度啦 方法就法務部也沒辦法去指揮啦就各地的檢察官自己去用嘛那跟各地方法院之間要不要做強制處分那也都是個案啦好 那我再問一個問題就是說在這些案子裡頭提供名冊啦提供名冊有很多種啦去郵輪的名冊啦什麼社團的名冊"},{"start":443.394,"end":461.39,"text":"提供名冊沒有當事人同意然後就交給了某一個人然後那個人就去抄了所謂的聯署書也沒有徵得原來的人同意啦我把它切清楚說提供名冊的這些人他在法律上會違反什麼規定提供名冊看有沒有那個違照"},{"start":462.533,"end":477.597,"text":"簽章或者死亡連署的一個情形那如果單純的這個送他沒有去參與這個行為那可能這部分就會比較沒辦法去成立這個犯罪除非有共同範例的一個聯絡OK 就是說我把這個名冊交給一組人不要一直給我偷 給我 你要給我什麼名冊給我然後我就把這個名冊給了這一組人那這組人要去幹什麼"},{"start":485.899,"end":505.071,"text":"我也沒事就對了這組人去做了什麼壞事我有關嗎就要看有沒有共同範囍的聯絡有沒有共同範囍的聯絡這個要去查個案去做一個檢查要去認定那拿到這個名冊的人他就開始抄寫個人的資料抄完之後後面又去偽造簽名"},{"start":506.345,"end":525.583,"text":"那這一塊這一塊就是這一個偽造文書對不對那這個偽造文書是抄一筆就一條罪還是這整個案子假設我負責抄一百筆那我還是我是一百條罪還是我還是只有一條罪這個是一筆一罪一罪一划嘛因為他那個備案是單獨的"},{"start":527.028,"end":544.687,"text":"一個個人資料是一個人是專屬他的個人資料嘛對所以是抄一個應該是我的看法啦是一罪啦就是一人一罪有一個人被抄了然後這個人也不知道那不知道那他去抄了就講違照他的簽名那負責抄了這個人"},{"start":545.919,"end":562.798,"text":"他就是一罪一罰一個名冊一個資料就一罰嘛好那第三組人是這樣就是說他這個拿到了這個抄的名冊的時候他也搞不清楚啦他也搞不清楚他就整宗抹去中選委可是他可能是領先人他是領先然後他把這一個"},{"start":563.799,"end":579.428,"text":"委員各支法或委召文書的這些資料拿去交給公務機關然後去申請一件事情 這是提議嘛 去申請一件事情在法律上這一組 他們都沒有去連署喔他們就在想要拔的拔拔的去中選會 中選會就把它收建了喔因為你們現在查都會去問那個送 送的那個人嘛 叫做領銜人嘛送的那個人 這個人會不會有罪"},{"start":589.677,"end":608.951,"text":"就要看有沒有共同犯例的聯絡他知不知道這裡面是不是違照的簽章他如果知道他就有這當然是有共同犯例的聯絡他如果都不知道那不知道的話因為我們不處罰除非有過失的一個明文處罰過失的一個情形或者的話這個是就要看個案的一個好那我就問到這裡謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時55分）主席，我們請中選會。"],["主席：麻煩中選會上臺。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：委員早安。"],["王委員義川：你好。請問一下第一階段連署的時候，各地相關的選委會都有彙整成一個報表到中選會，裡面會載明有多少死亡連署、多少偽造情事。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["王委員義川：這個送到你們那裡去之後，你們下一步針對它講的死亡連署會再做任何查證的動作嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：因為這是地方選委會還有戶政機關查證的結果，我們會把這個查證結果請委員會審議，如果經過委員會審議通過的話，我們就會把這個疑似有偽造情事的部分移送檢察官。"],["王委員義川：那你們有看到偽造情事的內容嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：選委會送上來的時候，他們也會把那種疑似偽造的名冊附在裡面。"],["王委員義川：關於現在的偽造情事，就是你們有一欄叫做偽造情事，偽造情事的樣態大概是什麼？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：關於偽造情事的樣態，比較明顯的是死亡提議的部分。"],["王委員義川：死亡提議是在另外一欄，你們那個表的最後面才是偽造情事，死亡連署在比較靠左邊的那一欄，最右邊那一欄有偽造情事，你們就把這個偽造情事移給最高檢嘛，對不對？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是！"],["王委員義川：那個偽造情事的樣態有哪些？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們大部分看到的通常都是，比如說提議的書表，不同的提議人但是他們的筆跡、筆觸看起來都是相同的。"],["王委員義川：筆跡是指前面的資料還是後面的簽名？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：都有。"],["王委員義川：那這種案子你們就認為是偽造情事，然後就送給最高檢？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，我們選委會當然不是認定有偽造、沒有偽造的一個機關，只是站在選委會的立場，會覺得這有疑似偽造的嫌疑。既然是……"],["王委員義川：那你們會不會對各地方選委會送上來的認為：這個偽造情事不算偽造，這哪算偽造！你們會自己去過濾這件事嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，我們目前就是說……"],["王委員義川：不會？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們目前沒有看到那種明明看起來完全沒有疑似偽造，但是選委會又硬把它送上來的，沒有這樣子的狀況。"],["王委員義川：譬如說它寫了100件偽造，你們就100件通通送給最高檢，這裡頭有沒有增減過？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：增減過……就是說……"],["王委員義川：比如某一個選委會說他們這部分有100件偽造，送上來的報表是100件偽造，包括後面的資料，你們看完之後說沒有，這2件就不是，所以你們改送出去給最高檢的時候變成98件。有沒有這樣？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：對不起，這是我們另外一個處室的業務，但是以我們在移送這件事來講，選委會送上來的一定都是有疑似偽造的狀況，是沒有碰過……"],["王委員義川：好，那簡單講，中選會基本上就是看資料，你們也不會再有另外一個階段的查證作為。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們會提委員會審議。"],["王委員義川：對，提委員會，委員會也是看資料嘛。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["王委員義川：委員會也不會當場做任何查證，對吧？因為你們沒有查證能力呀，沒錯吧？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是！"],["王委員義川：好。","接下來請法務部。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員義川：部長，按照中選會的說法，他們把這些偽造情事送給了最高檢，最高檢會分到各地方的檢察署，各地的檢察署就開始啟動相關的調查。這些調查現在出現了這些樣態，不同地方的相關人員有些被強制處分了，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["王委員義川：各地的檢察官有各地檢察官偵辦的方法，即「手路」啦，每個人方法不一樣，視個案的作法，他也會啟動不同的方式，這個算是很正常。好，假設各地都查完了，也大概有一個段落了，請問法務部或最高檢或哪一個單位會去發現為什麼A地檢署查了是這樣，但B地檢署查這樣、C地檢署查這樣，他們都長得很像，會不會有另外一組人發現他們查得很像，所以把它視為組織犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分，當然每個個案的證據情況不一樣。"],["王委員義川：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：組織犯罪有組織犯罪的構成要件，但是如果這裡面有合乎組織犯罪構成要件程，當然這部分檢察官就會去處理、去查到底有沒有組織犯罪成立的問題。"],["王委員義川：這個會是另外一組檢察官嗎？因為你現在發給各地比如A地檢署、B地檢署、C地檢署他們都在辦，辦完之後會不會有一個什麼彙整平臺，發現原來你那邊也這樣、我們這裡也是這樣、他們那邊也這樣？會不會有這樣一個機制，把這些事情看一看，唉唷，好像是同樣的手法，另外又起一個案子，把這些同樣的手法再去偵辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最高檢是屬於選罷案件的督導機關，如果有像委員講的情況，我相信最高檢一定會做一個統合的討論及規劃。"],["王委員義川：OK！好，所以現在還是各地的檢察署在偵辦……"],["鄭部長銘謙：還在偵辦中。"],["王委員義川：偵辦的進度、方法，法務部也沒辦法去指揮啦，就是由各地的檢察官他們自己去處理，跟各地方法院之間要不要做強制處分，那也都是個案啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["王委員義川：好。我再問一個問題，在這些案子裡頭有關提供名冊，提供名冊有很多種，去遊覽的名冊、某社團的名冊，提供名冊但沒有當事人同意，然後就交給了某一個人，那個人就去抄了所謂的連署書，也沒有徵得原來的人同意。我把它切清楚，提供名冊的這些人，他在法律上會違反什麼規定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：提供名冊看有沒有偽造簽章或者死亡連署的情形，如果單純的送而沒有去參與這個行為，可能這部分就會比較沒辦法去成立這個犯罪，除非有共同犯意的聯絡。"],["王委員義川：OK，我把這些名冊交給一組人，比如說他來跟我要，問我有什麼名冊可以給，然後我就把這個名冊給了這一組人，這組人要去幹什麼，我也沒事就對了？這組人去做了什麼壞事，與我有關嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就要看有沒有共同犯意的聯絡。"],["王委員義川：有沒有共同犯意聯絡，如果……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要去查，要個案作一個……檢察官要去認定。"],["王委員義川：拿到這個名冊的人，他就開始抄寫這些個人的資料，抄完之後，後面又去偽造簽名嘛！這一塊就是偽造文書，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["王委員義川：這個偽造文書是抄一筆就一條罪？還是這整個案子假設我負責抄一百筆，我是一百條罪還是只有一條罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是一筆一罪、一罪一罰，因為那個被害人是單獨的個人資料，是一個人專屬他的個人資料。"],["王委員義川：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以抄一個應該是……我的看法啦！是一罪，一人一罪。"],["王委員義川：就是有一個人被抄了，然後這個人也不知道，他去抄了又偽造他的簽名，負責抄的這個人，他就是一罪一罰，一個名冊一個資料就一罰嘛！好，第三組人是這樣，拿到了抄的名冊之後，他也搞不清楚啦，就整箱抱去給中選會，可是他可能是領銜人，他把違反個資法或偽造文書的這些資料拿去交給公務機關，然後去申請一件事情，就是他提議去申請了一件事情，在法律上，這一組人也都沒有去連署，他就把這些箱子搬過去中選會，中選會就收件了。你們現在查都會去問送件的人，叫做領銜人，就是送件的人，這個人會不會有罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看有沒有共同犯意的聯絡，他知不知道這裡面是不是偽造的簽章……"],["王委員義川：他如果知道他就有……"],["鄭部長銘謙：知道當然就是有共犯聯絡……"],["王委員義川：他如果都不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不知道的話，因為我們不處罰……除非有明文處罰過失的情形，否則的話，就要看個案的……"],["王委員義川：OK，好，那我就問到這裡，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}}