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00:01:37,536\n我們當然是說會持續的去宣導相關的一個作為那麼也是因應這個形式的一個東西以及累積相關的一個案例然後我們能夠提升整個部裡面的同仁對於相關的事情的這個關注第二個是我也跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們的這個絕大多數的這個公務人員尤其是通過這個外交領事院特考的這些人員都非常的優秀\n\n5\n00:01:38,036 --> 00:01:57,043\n那麼對國家的忠誠度也無可挑剔雖然我們會繼續進行內部的這個控制但是我也跟委員保證我們這個相關的這個人員都是奉公守法而且是對國家忠誠是無可遺憾的因為其實我們還是信任現任的所有的外交同仁因為他們在第一線他們面對的壓力是非常大的那麼\n\n6\n00:01:59,984 --> 00:02:14,055\n還有包括中國在民面上面的戰狼外交其實還是在步步逼近只是就如同外交部或者是等一下國防部又或者是我們國安局所寫的報告那就是在所謂對\n\n7\n00:02:15,436 --> 00:02:29,706\n中國對於我們現任的外交同仁或者是公務人員在第一線他有這種金錢利誘又或者是他刻意的這種滲透的方式的時候尤其是金錢利誘的時候那這個部分說實話他可能在某一個時間點他因為金錢或債務上面的壓力他就走錯了路我想這個過去我在質詢國防部的時候這種案例更多\n\n8\n00:02:42,634 --> 00:03:00,803\n那麼,像這樣的狀況底下,同仁們的工作以外的表現,尤其是在金錢上面的這個部分,那這個部分到底要如何關注?比如說像現在講到的樣態,它就是會有所謂金錢利誘,或者是債務脅迫,那這個確實是一個你可能看不到或查不到的。\n\n9\n00:03:04,625 --> 00:03:31,423\n那這個部分有必要未來包括連這些外交人員又或者是相關的同仁們他們在這個部分也必須要成為檢視的一個方向嗎是我想剛才那個國防部顧部長這邊已經有了很好的一個示範有關於像揭秘的一些規定我想我們在外交部可以研議那當然我們也看看是不是這個行政院方面相關的人事總署\n\n10\n00:03:34,705 --> 00:04:03,871\n但是就外交部來說的話我們覺得是說其實顧部長所提出的像國防部內部人員揭秘的相關的規範我們也可以參照然後看看是不是能夠比照來辦理以確保是說我們的外交領事人員那麼在面對到中共的不斷無理的挑釁甚至用很多的金錢誘拉的時候能不能夠繼續的保持他們的操守繼續保持他們的國家忠誠\n\n11\n00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:07,043\n好謝謝那我來有請這個黃副局長這個副局長其實剛剛不論是外交部的報告又或者是這個國防部的報告都特別點出來了就是中國在滲透的部分其實網路成為一個非常方便\n\n12\n00:04:21,201 --> 00:04:46,046\n的一個聯絡點那就是說過去可能要真人直接來做接觸但現在透過網路他可以透過假的資訊甚至於是一些網路的陷阱所以網路成為一個非常重要的節點的時候那在網路的部分如何來做這個管理那這個部分國安局有特別的去了解嗎\n\n13\n00:04:47,687 --> 00:05:07,047\n我想其中網路的一個勾連是一個方式那這個方式比方說在就業的一個招攬部分它也透過網路但是它設定條件比方說要什麼技術要什麼職業人員然後要提供什麼一個訊息這個還有個人的一個電郵\n\n14\n00:05:08,989 --> 00:05:32,198\n還有自己的臉書裡面都會跑出這些需求的這個樣態那只要你點進去後來再跟他聯繫的話慢慢慢慢就會設造他一個線接這個是我們都會掌握到的好因為我必須強調今天雖然我們找的是以國安跟外交單位為主但是事實上我們的政府的各個部門他都會可能成為中共滲透的一個對象而透過網路\n\n15\n00:05:34,159 --> 00:05:39,783\n它又方便然後又可以串聯甚至於只要放入病毒相關的程式進去之後其實都有可能成為被滲透的對象而且無意間它可能就成為共犯那這個部分我相信國安局也有注意啦那也希望能夠了解但是我們一直在聊就是政府部門或者是國安部門被滲透然後成為共諜或是成為共諜的共犯\n\n16\n00:05:58,556 --> 00:06:02,620\n但是其實在我們立法院當中其實昨天中午的程序委員會我們也看到了就是民進黨的委員所提出來的國安法案都一再的被阻擋連審都不能審其實我是覺得蠻莫名其妙的啦就是如果說今天國民黨這麼縱使共諜然後也擔心中國的滲透那為什麼這些法案他們在程序委員會就直接擋在外面\n\n17\n00:06:21,539 --> 00:06:33,264\n高達了上百次如果加起來的話如果以個別提案再加總就上百次但是本席特別去看了一下有關於到中國到底要不要報備或者是要報要做申報其實在\n\n18\n00:06:38,866 --> 00:07:00,899\n兩岸人民關係條例當中就明確的講了政務人員也就是其實今天在場的只要是政務人員又或者是直轄市的市長縣長其實重要的機關都是需要做報備的但是只有民代不需要當然我自己身為民意代表我個人是認為如果說\n\n19\n00:07:04,281 --> 00:07:21,152\n需要有一定的標準的話尤其是民意代表會接觸到的機密以監督之名可以看到很多重要的資訊所以我認為以國安局的角度你怎麼來看是不是應該要修法民意代表會不會成為漏網之魚\n\n20\n00:07:22,232 --> 00:07:44,601\n只要針對我們國安的有一些漏洞法制面的一個填補它我們是非常的一個歡迎而且有需要了那至於是不是民意代表需要做相關的管制這可能要請前者當然入委會協調我們立法院以及地方縣市政府等這個相關業管單位來做一個修法的一個規範\n\n21\n00:07:45,660 --> 00:08:00,621\n好所以你們是同意的嘛好其實我真的覺得啦這個題目在這裡大家也都看得很清楚啦我不希望說今天我們這個國防外交委員會一隻手指著別人但是四隻手指頭指著自己\n\n22\n00:08:01,061 --> 00:08:05,345\n就是我們一直不斷的說要加強監督國防部外交部或是政府的其他的各個部門但是呢民意代表卻可以不用報備然後不用擔心我認為這個部分我們是應該要以身作則啦那至於到底是什麼樣的狀況我想立法院當中藍白在組黨這個法案也非常清楚的最後我想主席請一下這個國防部的顧部長喔\n\n23\n00:08:29,059 --> 00:08:55,549\n主委不好意思再借個幾分鐘部長現在民進黨所提出來的國安實法當然就是希望能夠全面的來守護就是我們現在的國家安全從身份的確立然後檢討違法的刑責建立國家安全網跟強化管轄制度那麼本席其實也針對了這個部分有提出的修法就是有關於這個陸海空刑罰的修正案我剛剛看您的報告其實您也同意在陸海空刑罰的第24條當中來做\n\n24\n00:08:58,811 --> 00:09:01,039\n加強不過本席希望能夠\n\n25\n00:09:02,970 --> 00:09:28,046\n不是只是在加重刑責的部分而且必須要在對於預備或者是預謀的這個部分我認為刑度是太低的就以這個士林憲兵隊他們可以錄製相關的影片然後來對中共宣誓效忠這種所謂有預備的行為而不是說已經有犯刑了才去做裁罰這個部分我不知道部長您的看法如何\n\n26\n00:09:29,066 --> 00:09:50,132\n跟委員報告我們在24條裡面就那個投遞的預備跟陰謀都已經有規定納入納入而且加重好那目前這個案子是不是已經送到院裡面了對我們經過公告之後已經送到立法送到行政院然後等行政院報送立法院對對對所以有加入陰謀跟預備\n\n27\n00:09:51,092 --> 00:09:58,907\n好因為本席認為在這個部分因為有太多這種影響的前車之鑒所以本席是會予以肯定跟支持謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1276\t8380\t謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長我們外交部陳正次還有我們國安局的黃副局長那這樣子我先問陳正次好了委員好\n22492\t28817\t政次 我想剛剛我特別認真看了一下報告是外交部開宗明義就說了我們這公務員人員服務法的第一條跟第五條當然就是公務員一定要恪守誓言嘛那麼你們在報告當中其實也都特別加強了不論是部內同仁或者是外管有關於這個對於國家的認同的部分喔是那麼\n44631\t70780\t如果說今天針對這份報告那麼有關於公人員服務法其實這個主責單位也不是外交部啦應該是人總必須要來但是就您來講的話對於同仁來說在內部的所謂的內規部內的所謂執行細則上對於有關於同仁或者是同仁可能被滲透的部分你們認為還有哪些其實是應該要加強的部分\n71485\t97536\t我們當然是說會持續的去宣導相關的一個作為那麼也是因應這個形式的一個東西以及累積相關的一個案例然後我們能夠提升整個部裡面的同仁對於相關的事情的這個關注第二個是我也跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們的這個絕大多數的這個公務人員尤其是通過這個外交領事院特考的這些人員都非常的優秀\n98036\t117043\t那麼對國家的忠誠度也無可挑剔雖然我們會繼續進行內部的這個控制但是我也跟委員保證我們這個相關的這個人員都是奉公守法而且是對國家忠誠是無可遺憾的因為其實我們還是信任現任的所有的外交同仁因為他們在第一線他們面對的壓力是非常大的那麼\n119984\t134055\t還有包括中國在民面上面的戰狼外交其實還是在步步逼近只是就如同外交部或者是等一下國防部又或者是我們國安局所寫的報告那就是在所謂對\n135436\t149706\t中國對於我們現任的外交同仁或者是公務人員在第一線他有這種金錢利誘又或者是他刻意的這種滲透的方式的時候尤其是金錢利誘的時候那這個部分說實話他可能在某一個時間點他因為金錢或債務上面的壓力他就走錯了路我想這個過去我在質詢國防部的時候這種案例更多\n162634\t180803\t那麼,像這樣的狀況底下,同仁們的工作以外的表現,尤其是在金錢上面的這個部分,那這個部分到底要如何關注?比如說像現在講到的樣態,它就是會有所謂金錢利誘,或者是債務脅迫,那這個確實是一個你可能看不到或查不到的。\n184625\t211423\t那這個部分有必要未來包括連這些外交人員又或者是相關的同仁們他們在這個部分也必須要成為檢視的一個方向嗎是我想剛才那個國防部顧部長這邊已經有了很好的一個示範有關於像揭秘的一些規定我想我們在外交部可以研議那當然我們也看看是不是這個行政院方面相關的人事總署\n214705\t243871\t但是就外交部來說的話我們覺得是說其實顧部長所提出的像國防部內部人員揭秘的相關的規範我們也可以參照然後看看是不是能夠比照來辦理以確保是說我們的外交領事人員那麼在面對到中共的不斷無理的挑釁甚至用很多的金錢誘拉的時候能不能夠繼續的保持他們的操守繼續保持他們的國家忠誠\n244500\t247043\t好 謝謝 那我來有請這個黃副局長這個副局長其實剛剛不論是外交部的報告又或者是這個國防部的報告都特別點出來了就是中國在滲透的部分其實網路成為一個非常方便\n261201\t286046\t的一個聯絡點那就是說過去可能要真人直接來做接觸但現在透過網路他可以透過假的資訊甚至於是一些網路的陷阱所以網路成為一個非常重要的節點的時候那在網路的部分如何來做這個管理那這個部分國安局有特別的去了解嗎\n287687\t307047\t我想其中網路的一個勾連是一個方式那這個方式比方說在就業的一個招攬部分它也透過網路但是它設定條件比方說要什麼技術要什麼職業人員然後要提供什麼一個訊息這個還有個人的一個電郵\n308989\t332198\t還有自己的臉書裡面都會跑出這些需求的這個樣態那只要你點進去後來再跟他聯繫的話慢慢慢慢就會設造他一個線接這個是我們都會掌握到的好 因為我必須強調今天雖然我們找的是以國安跟外交單位為主但是事實上我們的政府的各個部門他都會可能成為中共滲透的一個對象而透過網路\n334159\t339783\t它又方便然後又可以串聯甚至於只要放入病毒相關的程式進去之後其實都有可能成為被滲透的對象而且無意間它可能就成為共犯那這個部分我相信國安局也有注意啦那也希望能夠了解但是我們一直在聊就是政府部門或者是國安部門被滲透然後成為共諜或是成為共諜的共犯\n358556\t362620\t但是其實在我們立法院當中其實昨天中午的程序委員會我們也看到了就是民進黨的委員所提出來的國安法案都一再的被阻擋連審都不能審其實我是覺得蠻莫名其妙的啦就是如果說今天國民黨這麼縱使共諜然後也擔心中國的滲透那為什麼這些法案他們在程序委員會就直接擋在外面\n381539\t393264\t高達了上百次如果加起來的話如果以個別提案再加總就上百次但是本席特別去看了一下有關於到中國到底要不要報備或者是要報要做申報其實在\n398866\t420899\t兩岸人民關係條例當中就明確的講了政務人員也就是其實今天在場的只要是政務人員又或者是直轄市的市長縣長其實重要的機關都是需要做報備的但是只有民代不需要當然我自己身為民意代表我個人是認為如果說\n424281\t441152\t需要有一定的標準的話尤其是民意代表會接觸到的機密以監督之名可以看到很多重要的資訊所以我認為以國安局的角度你怎麼來看是不是應該要修法民意代表會不會成為漏網之魚\n442232\t464601\t只要針對我們國安的有一些漏洞法制面的一個填補它我們是非常的一個歡迎而且有需要了那至於是不是民意代表需要做相關的管制這可能要請前者當然入委會協調我們立法院以及地方縣市政府等這個相關業管單位來做一個修法的一個規範\n465660\t480621\t好 所以你們是同意的嘛好 其實我真的覺得啦這個題目在這裡大家也都看得很清楚啦我不希望說今天我們這個國防外交委員會一隻手指著別人但是四隻手指頭指著自己\n481061\t485345\t就是我們一直不斷的說要加強監督國防部外交部或是政府的其他的各個部門但是呢民意代表卻可以不用報備然後不用擔心我認為這個部分我們是應該要以身作則啦那至於到底是什麼樣的狀況我想立法院當中藍白在組黨這個法案也非常清楚的最後我想主席請一下這個國防部的顧部長喔\n509059\t535549\t主委不好意思再借個幾分鐘部長現在民進黨所提出來的國安實法當然就是希望能夠全面的來守護就是我們現在的國家安全從身份的確立然後檢討違法的刑責建立國家安全網跟強化管轄制度那麼本席其實也針對了這個部分有提出的修法就是有關於這個陸海空刑罰的修正案我剛剛看您的報告其實您也同意在陸海空刑罰的第24條當中來做\n538811\t541039\t加強不過本席希望能夠\n542970\t568046\t不是只是在加重刑責的部分而且必須要在對於預備或者是預謀的這個部分我認為刑度是太低的就以這個士林憲兵隊他們可以錄製相關的影片然後來對中共宣誓效忠這種所謂有預備的行為而不是說已經有犯刑了才去做裁罰這個部分我不知道部長您的看法如何\n569066\t590132\t跟委員報告我們在24條裡面就那個投遞的預備跟陰謀都已經有規定納入納入而且加重好那目前這個案子是不是已經送到院裡面了對我們經過公告之後已經送到立法送到行政院然後等行政院報送立法院對對對所以有加入陰謀跟預備\n591092\t598907\t好 因為本席認為在這個部分因為有太多這種影響的前車之鑒所以本席是會予以肯定跟支持謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長我們外交部陳正次還有我們國安局的黃副局長那這樣子我先問陳正次好了委員好\n政次 我想剛剛我特別認真看了一下報告是外交部開宗明義就說了我們這公務員人員服務法的第一條跟第五條當然就是公務員一定要恪守誓言嘛那麼你們在報告當中其實也都特別加強了不論是部內同仁或者是外管有關於這個對於國家的認同的部分喔是那麼\n如果說今天針對這份報告那麼有關於公人員服務法其實這個主責單位也不是外交部啦應該是人總必須要來但是就您來講的話對於同仁來說在內部的所謂的內規部內的所謂執行細則上對於有關於同仁或者是同仁可能被滲透的部分你們認為還有哪些其實是應該要加強的部分\n我們當然是說會持續的去宣導相關的一個作為那麼也是因應這個形式的一個東西以及累積相關的一個案例然後我們能夠提升整個部裡面的同仁對於相關的事情的這個關注第二個是我也跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們的這個絕大多數的這個公務人員尤其是通過這個外交領事院特考的這些人員都非常的優秀\n那麼對國家的忠誠度也無可挑剔雖然我們會繼續進行內部的這個控制但是我也跟委員保證我們這個相關的這個人員都是奉公守法而且是對國家忠誠是無可遺憾的因為其實我們還是信任現任的所有的外交同仁因為他們在第一線他們面對的壓力是非常大的那麼\n還有包括中國在民面上面的戰狼外交其實還是在步步逼近只是就如同外交部或者是等一下國防部又或者是我們國安局所寫的報告那就是在所謂對\n中國對於我們現任的外交同仁或者是公務人員在第一線他有這種金錢利誘又或者是他刻意的這種滲透的方式的時候尤其是金錢利誘的時候那這個部分說實話他可能在某一個時間點他因為金錢或債務上面的壓力他就走錯了路我想這個過去我在質詢國防部的時候這種案例更多\n那麼,像這樣的狀況底下,同仁們的工作以外的表現,尤其是在金錢上面的這個部分,那這個部分到底要如何關注?比如說像現在講到的樣態,它就是會有所謂金錢利誘,或者是債務脅迫,那這個確實是一個你可能看不到或查不到的。\n那這個部分有必要未來包括連這些外交人員又或者是相關的同仁們他們在這個部分也必須要成為檢視的一個方向嗎是我想剛才那個國防部顧部長這邊已經有了很好的一個示範有關於像揭秘的一些規定我想我們在外交部可以研議那當然我們也看看是不是這個行政院方面相關的人事總署\n但是就外交部來說的話我們覺得是說其實顧部長所提出的像國防部內部人員揭秘的相關的規範我們也可以參照然後看看是不是能夠比照來辦理以確保是說我們的外交領事人員那麼在面對到中共的不斷無理的挑釁甚至用很多的金錢誘拉的時候能不能夠繼續的保持他們的操守繼續保持他們的國家忠誠\n好 謝謝 那我來有請這個黃副局長這個副局長其實剛剛不論是外交部的報告又或者是這個國防部的報告都特別點出來了就是中國在滲透的部分其實網路成為一個非常方便\n的一個聯絡點那就是說過去可能要真人直接來做接觸但現在透過網路他可以透過假的資訊甚至於是一些網路的陷阱所以網路成為一個非常重要的節點的時候那在網路的部分如何來做這個管理那這個部分國安局有特別的去了解嗎\n我想其中網路的一個勾連是一個方式那這個方式比方說在就業的一個招攬部分它也透過網路但是它設定條件比方說要什麼技術要什麼職業人員然後要提供什麼一個訊息這個還有個人的一個電郵\n還有自己的臉書裡面都會跑出這些需求的這個樣態那只要你點進去後來再跟他聯繫的話慢慢慢慢就會設造他一個線接這個是我們都會掌握到的好 因為我必須強調今天雖然我們找的是以國安跟外交單位為主但是事實上我們的政府的各個部門他都會可能成為中共滲透的一個對象而透過網路\n它又方便然後又可以串聯甚至於只要放入病毒相關的程式進去之後其實都有可能成為被滲透的對象而且無意間它可能就成為共犯那這個部分我相信國安局也有注意啦那也希望能夠了解但是我們一直在聊就是政府部門或者是國安部門被滲透然後成為共諜或是成為共諜的共犯\n但是其實在我們立法院當中其實昨天中午的程序委員會我們也看到了就是民進黨的委員所提出來的國安法案都一再的被阻擋連審都不能審其實我是覺得蠻莫名其妙的啦就是如果說今天國民黨這麼縱使共諜然後也擔心中國的滲透那為什麼這些法案他們在程序委員會就直接擋在外面\n高達了上百次如果加起來的話如果以個別提案再加總就上百次但是本席特別去看了一下有關於到中國到底要不要報備或者是要報要做申報其實在\n兩岸人民關係條例當中就明確的講了政務人員也就是其實今天在場的只要是政務人員又或者是直轄市的市長縣長其實重要的機關都是需要做報備的但是只有民代不需要當然我自己身為民意代表我個人是認為如果說\n需要有一定的標準的話尤其是民意代表會接觸到的機密以監督之名可以看到很多重要的資訊所以我認為以國安局的角度你怎麼來看是不是應該要修法民意代表會不會成為漏網之魚\n只要針對我們國安的有一些漏洞法制面的一個填補它我們是非常的一個歡迎而且有需要了那至於是不是民意代表需要做相關的管制這可能要請前者當然入委會協調我們立法院以及地方縣市政府等這個相關業管單位來做一個修法的一個規範\n好 所以你們是同意的嘛好 其實我真的覺得啦這個題目在這裡大家也都看得很清楚啦我不希望說今天我們這個國防外交委員會一隻手指著別人但是四隻手指頭指著自己\n就是我們一直不斷的說要加強監督國防部外交部或是政府的其他的各個部門但是呢民意代表卻可以不用報備然後不用擔心我認為這個部分我們是應該要以身作則啦那至於到底是什麼樣的狀況我想立法院當中藍白在組黨這個法案也非常清楚的最後我想主席請一下這個國防部的顧部長喔\n主委不好意思再借個幾分鐘部長現在民進黨所提出來的國安實法當然就是希望能夠全面的來守護就是我們現在的國家安全從身份的確立然後檢討違法的刑責建立國家安全網跟強化管轄制度那麼本席其實也針對了這個部分有提出的修法就是有關於這個陸海空刑罰的修正案我剛剛看您的報告其實您也同意在陸海空刑罰的第24條當中來做\n加強不過本席希望能夠\n不是只是在加重刑責的部分而且必須要在對於預備或者是預謀的這個部分我認為刑度是太低的就以這個士林憲兵隊他們可以錄製相關的影片然後來對中共宣誓效忠這種所謂有預備的行為而不是說已經有犯刑了才去做裁罰這個部分我不知道部長您的看法如何\n跟委員報告我們在24條裡面就那個投遞的預備跟陰謀都已經有規定納入納入而且加重好那目前這個案子是不是已經送到院裡面了對我們經過公告之後已經送到立法送到行政院然後等行政院報送立法院對對對所以有加入陰謀跟預備\n好 因為本席認為在這個部分因為有太多這種影響的前車之鑒所以本席是會予以肯定跟支持謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.276 --> 00:08.380\n謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長我們外交部陳正次還有我們國安局的黃副局長那這樣子我先問陳正次好了委員好\n\n00:22.492 --> 00:28.817\n政次我想剛剛我特別認真看了一下報告是外交部開宗明義就說了我們這公務員人員服務法的第一條跟第五條當然就是公務員一定要恪守誓言嘛那麼你們在報告當中其實也都特別加強了不論是部內同仁或者是外管有關於這個對於國家的認同的部分喔是那麼\n\n00:44.631 --> 01:10.780\n如果說今天針對這份報告那麼有關於公人員服務法其實這個主責單位也不是外交部啦應該是人總必須要來但是就您來講的話對於同仁來說在內部的所謂的內規部內的所謂執行細則上對於有關於同仁或者是同仁可能被滲透的部分你們認為還有哪些其實是應該要加強的部分\n\n01:11.485 --> 01:37.536\n我們當然是說會持續的去宣導相關的一個作為那麼也是因應這個形式的一個東西以及累積相關的一個案例然後我們能夠提升整個部裡面的同仁對於相關的事情的這個關注第二個是我也跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們的這個絕大多數的這個公務人員尤其是通過這個外交領事院特考的這些人員都非常的優秀\n\n01:38.036 --> 01:57.043\n那麼對國家的忠誠度也無可挑剔雖然我們會繼續進行內部的這個控制但是我也跟委員保證我們這個相關的這個人員都是奉公守法而且是對國家忠誠是無可遺憾的因為其實我們還是信任現任的所有的外交同仁因為他們在第一線他們面對的壓力是非常大的那麼\n\n01:59.984 --> 02:14.055\n還有包括中國在民面上面的戰狼外交其實還是在步步逼近只是就如同外交部或者是等一下國防部又或者是我們國安局所寫的報告那就是在所謂對\n\n02:15.436 --> 02:29.706\n中國對於我們現任的外交同仁或者是公務人員在第一線他有這種金錢利誘又或者是他刻意的這種滲透的方式的時候尤其是金錢利誘的時候那這個部分說實話他可能在某一個時間點他因為金錢或債務上面的壓力他就走錯了路我想這個過去我在質詢國防部的時候這種案例更多\n\n02:42.634 --> 03:00.803\n那麼,像這樣的狀況底下,同仁們的工作以外的表現,尤其是在金錢上面的這個部分,那這個部分到底要如何關注?比如說像現在講到的樣態,它就是會有所謂金錢利誘,或者是債務脅迫,那這個確實是一個你可能看不到或查不到的。\n\n03:04.625 --> 03:31.423\n那這個部分有必要未來包括連這些外交人員又或者是相關的同仁們他們在這個部分也必須要成為檢視的一個方向嗎是我想剛才那個國防部顧部長這邊已經有了很好的一個示範有關於像揭秘的一些規定我想我們在外交部可以研議那當然我們也看看是不是這個行政院方面相關的人事總署\n\n03:34.705 --> 04:03.871\n但是就外交部來說的話我們覺得是說其實顧部長所提出的像國防部內部人員揭秘的相關的規範我們也可以參照然後看看是不是能夠比照來辦理以確保是說我們的外交領事人員那麼在面對到中共的不斷無理的挑釁甚至用很多的金錢誘拉的時候能不能夠繼續的保持他們的操守繼續保持他們的國家忠誠\n\n04:04.500 --> 04:07.043\n好謝謝那我來有請這個黃副局長這個副局長其實剛剛不論是外交部的報告又或者是這個國防部的報告都特別點出來了就是中國在滲透的部分其實網路成為一個非常方便\n\n04:21.201 --> 04:46.046\n的一個聯絡點那就是說過去可能要真人直接來做接觸但現在透過網路他可以透過假的資訊甚至於是一些網路的陷阱所以網路成為一個非常重要的節點的時候那在網路的部分如何來做這個管理那這個部分國安局有特別的去了解嗎\n\n04:47.687 --> 05:07.047\n我想其中網路的一個勾連是一個方式那這個方式比方說在就業的一個招攬部分它也透過網路但是它設定條件比方說要什麼技術要什麼職業人員然後要提供什麼一個訊息這個還有個人的一個電郵\n\n05:08.989 --> 05:32.198\n還有自己的臉書裡面都會跑出這些需求的這個樣態那只要你點進去後來再跟他聯繫的話慢慢慢慢就會設造他一個線接這個是我們都會掌握到的好因為我必須強調今天雖然我們找的是以國安跟外交單位為主但是事實上我們的政府的各個部門他都會可能成為中共滲透的一個對象而透過網路\n\n05:34.159 --> 05:39.783\n它又方便然後又可以串聯甚至於只要放入病毒相關的程式進去之後其實都有可能成為被滲透的對象而且無意間它可能就成為共犯那這個部分我相信國安局也有注意啦那也希望能夠了解但是我們一直在聊就是政府部門或者是國安部門被滲透然後成為共諜或是成為共諜的共犯\n\n05:58.556 --> 06:02.620\n但是其實在我們立法院當中其實昨天中午的程序委員會我們也看到了就是民進黨的委員所提出來的國安法案都一再的被阻擋連審都不能審其實我是覺得蠻莫名其妙的啦就是如果說今天國民黨這麼縱使共諜然後也擔心中國的滲透那為什麼這些法案他們在程序委員會就直接擋在外面\n\n06:21.539 --> 06:33.264\n高達了上百次如果加起來的話如果以個別提案再加總就上百次但是本席特別去看了一下有關於到中國到底要不要報備或者是要報要做申報其實在\n\n06:38.866 --> 07:00.899\n兩岸人民關係條例當中就明確的講了政務人員也就是其實今天在場的只要是政務人員又或者是直轄市的市長縣長其實重要的機關都是需要做報備的但是只有民代不需要當然我自己身為民意代表我個人是認為如果說\n\n07:04.281 --> 07:21.152\n需要有一定的標準的話尤其是民意代表會接觸到的機密以監督之名可以看到很多重要的資訊所以我認為以國安局的角度你怎麼來看是不是應該要修法民意代表會不會成為漏網之魚\n\n07:22.232 --> 07:44.601\n只要針對我們國安的有一些漏洞法制面的一個填補它我們是非常的一個歡迎而且有需要了那至於是不是民意代表需要做相關的管制這可能要請前者當然入委會協調我們立法院以及地方縣市政府等這個相關業管單位來做一個修法的一個規範\n\n07:45.660 --> 08:00.621\n好所以你們是同意的嘛好其實我真的覺得啦這個題目在這裡大家也都看得很清楚啦我不希望說今天我們這個國防外交委員會一隻手指著別人但是四隻手指頭指著自己\n\n08:01.061 --> 08:05.345\n就是我們一直不斷的說要加強監督國防部外交部或是政府的其他的各個部門但是呢民意代表卻可以不用報備然後不用擔心我認為這個部分我們是應該要以身作則啦那至於到底是什麼樣的狀況我想立法院當中藍白在組黨這個法案也非常清楚的最後我想主席請一下這個國防部的顧部長喔\n\n08:29.059 --> 08:55.549\n主委不好意思再借個幾分鐘部長現在民進黨所提出來的國安實法當然就是希望能夠全面的來守護就是我們現在的國家安全從身份的確立然後檢討違法的刑責建立國家安全網跟強化管轄制度那麼本席其實也針對了這個部分有提出的修法就是有關於這個陸海空刑罰的修正案我剛剛看您的報告其實您也同意在陸海空刑罰的第24條當中來做\n\n08:58.811 --> 09:01.039\n加強不過本席希望能夠\n\n09:02.970 --> 09:28.046\n不是只是在加重刑責的部分而且必須要在對於預備或者是預謀的這個部分我認為刑度是太低的就以這個士林憲兵隊他們可以錄製相關的影片然後來對中共宣誓效忠這種所謂有預備的行為而不是說已經有犯刑了才去做裁罰這個部分我不知道部長您的看法如何\n\n09:29.066 --> 09:50.132\n跟委員報告我們在24條裡面就那個投遞的預備跟陰謀都已經有規定納入納入而且加重好那目前這個案子是不是已經送到院裡面了對我們經過公告之後已經送到立法送到行政院然後等行政院報送立法院對對對所以有加入陰謀跟預備\n\n09:51.092 --> 09:58.907\n好因為本席認為在這個部分因為有太多這種影響的前車之鑒所以本席是會予以肯定跟支持謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.276,"end":8.38,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長我們外交部陳正次還有我們國安局的黃副局長那這樣子我先問陳正次好了委員好"},{"start":22.492,"end":28.817,"text":"政次 我想剛剛我特別認真看了一下報告是外交部開宗明義就說了我們這公務員人員服務法的第一條跟第五條當然就是公務員一定要恪守誓言嘛那麼你們在報告當中其實也都特別加強了不論是部內同仁或者是外管有關於這個對於國家的認同的部分喔是那麼"},{"start":44.631,"end":70.78,"text":"如果說今天針對這份報告那麼有關於公人員服務法其實這個主責單位也不是外交部啦應該是人總必須要來但是就您來講的話對於同仁來說在內部的所謂的內規部內的所謂執行細則上對於有關於同仁或者是同仁可能被滲透的部分你們認為還有哪些其實是應該要加強的部分"},{"start":71.485,"end":97.536,"text":"我們當然是說會持續的去宣導相關的一個作為那麼也是因應這個形式的一個東西以及累積相關的一個案例然後我們能夠提升整個部裡面的同仁對於相關的事情的這個關注第二個是我也跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們的這個絕大多數的這個公務人員尤其是通過這個外交領事院特考的這些人員都非常的優秀"},{"start":98.036,"end":117.043,"text":"那麼對國家的忠誠度也無可挑剔雖然我們會繼續進行內部的這個控制但是我也跟委員保證我們這個相關的這個人員都是奉公守法而且是對國家忠誠是無可遺憾的因為其實我們還是信任現任的所有的外交同仁因為他們在第一線他們面對的壓力是非常大的那麼"},{"start":119.984,"end":134.055,"text":"還有包括中國在民面上面的戰狼外交其實還是在步步逼近只是就如同外交部或者是等一下國防部又或者是我們國安局所寫的報告那就是在所謂對"},{"start":135.436,"end":149.706,"text":"中國對於我們現任的外交同仁或者是公務人員在第一線他有這種金錢利誘又或者是他刻意的這種滲透的方式的時候尤其是金錢利誘的時候那這個部分說實話他可能在某一個時間點他因為金錢或債務上面的壓力他就走錯了路我想這個過去我在質詢國防部的時候這種案例更多"},{"start":162.634,"end":180.803,"text":"那麼,像這樣的狀況底下,同仁們的工作以外的表現,尤其是在金錢上面的這個部分,那這個部分到底要如何關注?比如說像現在講到的樣態,它就是會有所謂金錢利誘,或者是債務脅迫,那這個確實是一個你可能看不到或查不到的。"},{"start":184.625,"end":211.423,"text":"那這個部分有必要未來包括連這些外交人員又或者是相關的同仁們他們在這個部分也必須要成為檢視的一個方向嗎是我想剛才那個國防部顧部長這邊已經有了很好的一個示範有關於像揭秘的一些規定我想我們在外交部可以研議那當然我們也看看是不是這個行政院方面相關的人事總署"},{"start":214.705,"end":243.871,"text":"但是就外交部來說的話我們覺得是說其實顧部長所提出的像國防部內部人員揭秘的相關的規範我們也可以參照然後看看是不是能夠比照來辦理以確保是說我們的外交領事人員那麼在面對到中共的不斷無理的挑釁甚至用很多的金錢誘拉的時候能不能夠繼續的保持他們的操守繼續保持他們的國家忠誠"},{"start":244.5,"end":247.043,"text":"好 謝謝 那我來有請這個黃副局長這個副局長其實剛剛不論是外交部的報告又或者是這個國防部的報告都特別點出來了就是中國在滲透的部分其實網路成為一個非常方便"},{"start":261.201,"end":286.046,"text":"的一個聯絡點那就是說過去可能要真人直接來做接觸但現在透過網路他可以透過假的資訊甚至於是一些網路的陷阱所以網路成為一個非常重要的節點的時候那在網路的部分如何來做這個管理那這個部分國安局有特別的去了解嗎"},{"start":287.687,"end":307.047,"text":"我想其中網路的一個勾連是一個方式那這個方式比方說在就業的一個招攬部分它也透過網路但是它設定條件比方說要什麼技術要什麼職業人員然後要提供什麼一個訊息這個還有個人的一個電郵"},{"start":308.989,"end":332.198,"text":"還有自己的臉書裡面都會跑出這些需求的這個樣態那只要你點進去後來再跟他聯繫的話慢慢慢慢就會設造他一個線接這個是我們都會掌握到的好 因為我必須強調今天雖然我們找的是以國安跟外交單位為主但是事實上我們的政府的各個部門他都會可能成為中共滲透的一個對象而透過網路"},{"start":334.159,"end":339.783,"text":"它又方便然後又可以串聯甚至於只要放入病毒相關的程式進去之後其實都有可能成為被滲透的對象而且無意間它可能就成為共犯那這個部分我相信國安局也有注意啦那也希望能夠了解但是我們一直在聊就是政府部門或者是國安部門被滲透然後成為共諜或是成為共諜的共犯"},{"start":358.556,"end":362.62,"text":"但是其實在我們立法院當中其實昨天中午的程序委員會我們也看到了就是民進黨的委員所提出來的國安法案都一再的被阻擋連審都不能審其實我是覺得蠻莫名其妙的啦就是如果說今天國民黨這麼縱使共諜然後也擔心中國的滲透那為什麼這些法案他們在程序委員會就直接擋在外面"},{"start":381.539,"end":393.264,"text":"高達了上百次如果加起來的話如果以個別提案再加總就上百次但是本席特別去看了一下有關於到中國到底要不要報備或者是要報要做申報其實在"},{"start":398.866,"end":420.899,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例當中就明確的講了政務人員也就是其實今天在場的只要是政務人員又或者是直轄市的市長縣長其實重要的機關都是需要做報備的但是只有民代不需要當然我自己身為民意代表我個人是認為如果說"},{"start":424.281,"end":441.152,"text":"需要有一定的標準的話尤其是民意代表會接觸到的機密以監督之名可以看到很多重要的資訊所以我認為以國安局的角度你怎麼來看是不是應該要修法民意代表會不會成為漏網之魚"},{"start":442.232,"end":464.601,"text":"只要針對我們國安的有一些漏洞法制面的一個填補它我們是非常的一個歡迎而且有需要了那至於是不是民意代表需要做相關的管制這可能要請前者當然入委會協調我們立法院以及地方縣市政府等這個相關業管單位來做一個修法的一個規範"},{"start":465.66,"end":480.621,"text":"好 所以你們是同意的嘛好 其實我真的覺得啦這個題目在這裡大家也都看得很清楚啦我不希望說今天我們這個國防外交委員會一隻手指著別人但是四隻手指頭指著自己"},{"start":481.061,"end":485.345,"text":"就是我們一直不斷的說要加強監督國防部外交部或是政府的其他的各個部門但是呢民意代表卻可以不用報備然後不用擔心我認為這個部分我們是應該要以身作則啦那至於到底是什麼樣的狀況我想立法院當中藍白在組黨這個法案也非常清楚的最後我想主席請一下這個國防部的顧部長喔"},{"start":509.059,"end":535.549,"text":"主委不好意思再借個幾分鐘部長現在民進黨所提出來的國安實法當然就是希望能夠全面的來守護就是我們現在的國家安全從身份的確立然後檢討違法的刑責建立國家安全網跟強化管轄制度那麼本席其實也針對了這個部分有提出的修法就是有關於這個陸海空刑罰的修正案我剛剛看您的報告其實您也同意在陸海空刑罰的第24條當中來做"},{"start":538.811,"end":541.039,"text":"加強不過本席希望能夠"},{"start":542.97,"end":568.046,"text":"不是只是在加重刑責的部分而且必須要在對於預備或者是預謀的這個部分我認為刑度是太低的就以這個士林憲兵隊他們可以錄製相關的影片然後來對中共宣誓效忠這種所謂有預備的行為而不是說已經有犯刑了才去做裁罰這個部分我不知道部長您的看法如何"},{"start":569.066,"end":590.132,"text":"跟委員報告我們在24條裡面就那個投遞的預備跟陰謀都已經有規定納入納入而且加重好那目前這個案子是不是已經送到院裡面了對我們經過公告之後已經送到立法送到行政院然後等行政院報送立法院對對對所以有加入陰謀跟預備"},{"start":591.092,"end":598.907,"text":"好 因為本席認為在這個部分因為有太多這種影響的前車之鑒所以本席是會予以肯定跟支持謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時4分）謝謝主席。有請國防部顧部長、外交部陳政次，以及國安局黃副局長，我先問陳政次好了。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：剛剛我特別認真看了一下報告，外交部開宗明義就提到公務人員服務法第一條及第五條，當然公務員一定要恪守誓言。你們在報告當中其實也都特別強調，不論是部內同仁或是外館對於國家認同的部分。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員楚茵：針對今天這份報告，其實公務人員服務法的主責單位並不是外交部，照理說應該是人總必須要來，但是就您來講，在部內的執行細則上，有關於同仁可能被滲透的部分，你們認為還有哪些是應該要加強的部分？"],["陳次長明祺：我們當然會持續去宣導相關的作為，我們會因應形勢以及累積相關案例，然後提升部裡面所有同仁對於相關事情的關注。第二個我也要跟委員報告一下，其實我們絕大多數的公務人員，尤其是通過外交領事人員特考的這些人員都非常優秀，對國家的忠誠度也無可挑剔，雖然我們會繼續進行內部的控制，但是我也跟委員保證，我們相關的人員都是奉公守法，而且對國家的忠誠是無可質疑的。"],["林委員楚茵：其實我們還是信任現任所有的外交同仁，因為他們在第一線所面對的壓力是非常大的，包括中國在明面上的戰狼外交還是在步步逼近，只是如同外交部、國防部或國安局所寫的報告，中國對於我們現任的外交同仁或者是公務人員，在第一線它用金錢利誘，又或者是它刻意滲透，尤其是用金錢利誘的時候，說實話，他可能在某一個時間點因為金錢或債務上面的壓力就走錯了路，過去我在質詢國防部的時候，這種案例更多。在這樣的狀況底下，對於同仁們在工作以外的表現，尤其是在金錢的部分，到底要如何關注？比如像現在講到的樣態，就是會有所謂金錢利誘或者是債務脅迫，這確實是可能看不到或查不到的。針對這個部分，未來包括外交人員或相關同仁們，也必須成為檢視的一個方向嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：剛才國防部顧部長已經有了很好的示範，像是有關於接密的一些規定，我想外交部可以研議，當然我們也會看看行政院人事總處對於相關問題是不是也用比照的方式來辦理。就外交部而言，我們覺得顧部長所提出的，像國防部內部人員接密相關規範，我們也可以參照，然後看看是不是能夠比照辦理，以確保我們的外交領事人員在面對中共不斷的無理挑釁，甚至用很多金錢誘拉的時候，能夠繼續保持他們的操守、繼續保持他們的國家忠誠。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。接下來有請黃副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：剛剛不論是外交部的報告或是國防部的報告，都特別點出中國在滲透的部分，其實網路成為一個非常方便的聯絡點，過去可能要真人直接做接觸，但是現在透過網路，可以藉由假的資訊、甚至於網路陷阱，所以當網路成為一個非常重要的節點的時候，網路的部分如何做管理？針對這個部分，國安局有特別去瞭解嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想網路的勾連是其中一個方式，比方在就業的招攬部分也透過網路，但是它設定條件，比方要具備什麼技術、什麼執業人員，然後要提供什麼訊息，還有個人的電郵、臉書裡面都會跑出這些需求的樣態，只要點進去，後來再跟對方聯繫的話，慢慢就會涉入陷阱，這些事我們都有掌握到。"],["林委員楚茵：好。我必須強調，今天雖然我們找的是以國安及外交單位為主，但事實上政府各個部門都可能會成為中共滲透的對象，而透過網路既方便、又可以串聯，甚至於只要放入病毒、相關的程式進去之後，都有可能成為被滲透的對象，而且無意間可能就成為共犯，這個部分我相信國安局也有注意，也希望能夠瞭解。","我們一直在聊政府部門或者是國安部門被滲透成為共諜或是成為共諜的共犯，但是其實在我們立法院當中，從昨天中午的程序委員會我們也看到了，民進黨的委員所提出的國安法案都一再地被阻擋，連審都不能審，我覺得滿莫名其妙的，如果今天國民黨這麼重視共諜，也擔心中國的滲透，為什麼這些法案他們在程序委員會就直接擋在外面？如果以個別提案加起來、再加總，就高達上百次。本席特別去看了一下，有關於到中國到底要不要報備或者申報，其實在兩岸人民關係條例當中就明確地講了政務人員，也就是今天在場的，只要是政務人員，又或者是直轄市市長、縣長、重要的機關，都是需要做報備的，但是只有民代不需要。當然，身為民意代表，我個人認為如果需要有一定的標準的話，尤其是民意代表會接觸到機密，以監督之名可以看到很多重要的資訊，所以以國安局的角度，你怎麼看？是不是應該要修法？民意代表會不會成為漏網之魚？"],["黃副局長明昭：只要針對國安的漏洞進行法制面的填補，我們是非常地歡迎而且認為有需要。至於民意代表是不是需要做相關的管制，可能要請權責單位陸委會協調立法院及地方縣市政府等相關業管單位做修法的規範。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以你們是同意的。其實我真的覺得，這個題目在這裡大家也都看得很清楚，我不希望今天外交及國防委員會一隻手指著別人，但是四隻手指卻指著自己。我們一直不斷地說要加強監督國防部、外交部或是政府其他各個部門，但是民意代表卻可以不用報備、不用擔心，我認為這個部分我們應該以身作則，至於到底是什麼樣的狀況，我想立法院當中藍白在阻擋這個法案是非常清楚的。","最後，我想請主席請一下國防部顧部長。主席，不好意思，再借個幾分鐘。部長，現在民進黨所提出來的國安十法，當然就是希望能夠全面地守護現在的國家安全，從身分的確立、檢討違法的刑責、建立國家安全網及強化管轄制度。本席也針對這個部分提出了修法，就是有關於陸海空軍刑法的修正案，我剛剛看您的報告，其實您也同意在陸海空軍刑法第二十四條當中做加強，不過本席希望不只是加重刑責的部分，對於預備或者預謀的部分，我認為刑度太低，就以士林憲兵隊的士官錄製相關的影片對中共宣誓效忠為例，這種是屬於預備的行為，不是已經有犯行了才去做裁罰，針對這個部分，不知道部長您的看法如何？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第二十四條裡面就投敵的預備及陰謀都已經有規定……"],["林委員楚茵：納入。"],["顧部長立雄：納入，而且加重。"],["林委員楚茵：目前這個案子是不是已經送到院裡面了？"],["顧部長立雄：對，經過公告之後已經送到行政院……"],["林委員楚茵：送到行政院，然後等行政院報送立法院？"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以有加入陰謀及預備的部分。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席認為這個部分因為有太多影響的前車之鑑，所以本席會予以肯定及支持，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員仁）：謝謝林楚茵委員上臺質詢。","接下來由王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}}