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00:01:24,624\n來來麻煩你說明說明一下就是說我們今天請中選會來而且今天的主題跟中選會有關他們認為說這個層級的部分那想請官員解釋要用麥克風\n\n5\n00:01:29,437 --> 00:01:54,993\n所以我是一定非常尊重你啦只是說因為今天這個主題有它的一個專業性那也必須要知道整個一個廣度所以這個是我提出來的一個主要用意報告委員因為我們的國會聯絡人跟我們說明的時候是說立法院這邊就是只要我們這邊有檢認層級的人員出席就可以了\n\n6\n00:01:55,473 --> 00:02:12,554\n那另外就是因為今天的這個議題是涉及到的是選務中立、行政中立的一個部分那這一部分跟中選會這邊比較相關有關的業務的處事是法政處啦所以是由法政處這邊的檢任人員出席\n\n7\n00:02:14,293 --> 00:02:37,282\n還是說如果說委員認為有必要的話那我們下一次如果再安排這個議題我們再請就委員看委員需要到什麼樣的層級過來那我們再跟他特定好的謝謝主席我尊重主席所做的裁決啦好謝謝那請回好謝謝那我是不是先請我們副秘書長副秘書長跟我們法務部的部長副秘書長部長\n\n8\n00:02:43,477 --> 00:03:09,026\n副秘書長部長你們好我今天在一開始必須先嚴正的指出來這個新竹縣竹北健身房的負責人這個葉教練那他先前涉及了這個虐童案但是在檢方依法起訴之後呢結果這個被告已經輕易的棄保潛逃而且失聯了那如果比照我們幾週前之前在討論的案子他已經不是個個案囉\n\n9\n00:03:10,461 --> 00:03:27,177\n所以呢看起來我們的司法體系在積壓裁定抗告權的保障跟限制出境的機制好像存在了制度性的破口那這件案子涉及的是兒童及青少年人身的一個侵害那在依法應該是屬於高度重罪\n\n10\n00:03:28,098 --> 00:03:52,769\n整個社會對這樣的事情應該也是零容忍但是呢司法程序如果在這麼重大的人身犯罪當中竟然沒有辦法來防止被告脫逃那司法的正當性其實對社會的信任有很大的衝擊那在行政訴訟法93條第一條規定法院於羈押案件裁定前應通知檢察官到場陳述意見\n\n11\n00:03:53,789 --> 00:04:16,140\n那這個條文呢主要是在確保檢察官在羈押的這個程序當中能夠充分表達這個嫌犯有沒有逃亡的風險有沒有羈押的必要性但是本案在今年二月偵查終結的時候申請羈押但是法院卻沒有通知檢察官出庭進行以三百萬交保\n\n12\n00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:43,590\n更嚴重的是這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送到檢方那邊使檢方完全喪失了刑事訴訟法第414條抗告的權利無從依法提出不利於檢查積壓的必要性的意見所以在本案當中檢方在2月份偵查結束的時候已經申請了但是法院也沒有通知檢察官來出庭進行裁定300萬交保\n\n13\n00:04:44,930 --> 00:05:11,207\n那這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送達所以就導致現在的這個結果那在這個情形下那本席這邊也請教法務部檢查體系目前對於重大而少的保護案件在涉及羈押裁定或交保決定的時候有沒有明確的一個內部及時通報標準還有橫向的一個聯繫那在本案當中檢察官沒有辦法及時獲得法院裁定的內容\n\n14\n00:05:11,727 --> 00:05:18,538\n那這如果是一種制度性的問題那你們如何補強那如果是人為的疏失又如何究責請回答\n\n15\n00:05:27,643 --> 00:05:41,634\n這部分那個以審中的被告以審中的羈押被告是不是這個法院在開那個羈押庭的在第一次開庭的時候在是不是這個法律上是沒有明文規定檢換一定要\n\n16\n00:05:43,036 --> 00:06:05,134\n但我們希望說這種社會矚目案件包括委員關心的聶桐的這種的案件我們是希望說法院來通知檢來力挺為夷那剛才有提到的就是這種裁定的要送因為裁定這個送達我們不知道為什麼要交保的理由所以裁定送我們才有辦法提出看法而且這要送達給檢察官\n\n17\n00:06:06,215 --> 00:06:27,155\n對所以本席這邊提出來就是說你認不認為這樣有一些制度性的缺口需要去做一些因應跟處理制度的話這可以再研議討論而且這個訴訟法這部分是屬於那個司法院主管的法規當然我們可以表示一個意見你覺得這個個案跟我們先前在討論的中文字的也有一點相像嗎\n\n18\n00:06:28,038 --> 00:06:37,956\n兒子你在這麼短我的意思是說現在主要的人都不在那你們後續要怎麼處理已經這個關鍵因素目前大概已經成為一個很大的障礙對吧\n\n19\n00:06:39,138 --> 00:07:08,658\n好所以在這個案件裡面我們看到你們的檢院檢方跟法院之間的資訊斷鏈的真空期就導致這樣一個結果但是這讓社會上很難去接受這個司法還是公義的那請你們做一下內部的檢討不管司法院或者是法務部那你們不能再辦在野的政治人物的事情跑得一個比一個迅速結果這樣子整個社會很關注的有關於滅同的人生的這個部分\n\n20\n00:07:09,419 --> 00:07:12,851\n結果竟然出這麼大的皮肉我想這需要很大的檢討空間\n\n21\n00:07:16,347 --> 00:07:39,857\n在今天的這個有關於選務的這個部分如何維持中立我在這邊先講一下這個背景行政中立法第八條到第十條都明定行政中立行政機關及其人員應該公平執行業務執行職務不得利用職務上的權限或影響力為特定政黨或候選人助選跟選舉在這個\n\n22\n00:07:44,148 --> 00:08:02,448\n罷免或公投的第五條也將公務人員當作適用對象那在第十條的公務人員對於公職人員之選舉罷免或公民投票也不能利用職務上之權利機會或方法要求他人不能行使投票或者是行使一定的方式\n\n23\n00:08:03,629 --> 00:08:22,554\n所以從2009年以來政務官適用這樣的案例極少也缺乏明顯的或明確的裁量標準但是在整個選舉或罷免的過程當中我們看到透過補助分配或者是行政行動的時機點\n\n24\n00:08:24,774 --> 00:08:45,275\n還有特定言論的影響選舉的這個氛圍儘管形式上好像沒有展明民事助選但是實質上已經產生了影響選舉公平性跟資源中立性的這樣的衝擊如果沒有法律界限的監督機制那行政中立法就有點形同具聞\n\n25\n00:08:46,558 --> 00:08:56,923\n所以在行政體系上上位者可全身而退但是基層文官有的時候會成為帶罪羔羊那麼這部分所造成的落差是不是可以請法務部跟周選會這邊來做一個說明\n\n26\n00:08:59,364 --> 00:09:24,499\n跟委員報告這個是屬於行政中立法這是屬於那個中選那個是那個權序部的一個主管的一個法規所以這部分那什麼時候但是我們現在很清楚的我們碰到的就是選務的不中立要不然請中選會來針對那個行政中立沒有錢的狀況我想我們都不是我們都不是禮盲那這部分我沒辦法幫他回答這個問題好那要不然中選會來回應好嗎\n\n27\n00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:44,638\n但是檢盜系統的出動應該就跟法務部有很大的關係了剛才本席在內容上也提到所以針對在野黨的追殺一個跑得比一個快我想整個社會都看不下去了那中選會你對這件事情怎麼\n\n28\n00:09:46,393 --> 00:10:11,195\n報告委員因為其實我們針對這次的罷免不管是各地選委會回來查證的一個結果不管藍綠不管顏色只要我們看到你們都講不管藍綠但是執行的內容選定的人你們真的覺得沒有差異嗎報告委員真的沒有結果你看不出來我看所有的民眾都看得出來你們看不出來\n\n29\n00:10:12,962 --> 00:10:36,530\n因為我們是針對地方查證的一個結果有這樣子的一個偽造的一個嫌疑我們就移送所以我們沒有特別但是你們找的人的層級讓整個社會有一些懷疑那甚至雖然六點以後就可以進行這樣的事件但是六點半然後找什麼人我想大家都心知肚明本席不在這邊再多贅述好\n\n30\n00:10:38,070 --> 00:10:54,556\n那剛才本席這邊所談的減調的部分是不是應該去確認一下相關的資源有沒有在特定的時間投入還有減調的介入的時機我想這個都很令人懷疑而且讓我們看到減調的這個不公\n\n31\n00:10:56,016 --> 00:11:15,367\n似乎是已經整個社會的氛圍這個我要正式的澄清我們這個班絕對是謹守客觀中立的一個角色有犯罪嫌疑我們都要啟動偵查那每個案件的不一樣我們是勿往勿中那可以看一下這個PPT嗎那你覺得\n\n32\n00:11:16,588 --> 00:11:44,193\n許多的高官應該是九五之尊結果他們在某一些場合的發言您覺得中立嗎您覺得認同嗎這個發言的話為政策辯護我們認為這是一個政務官應該有的一個一個一個就委所以您認同這樣子的發言就對了這個這樣子的發言是OK的這個發言當然我們是希望都是恪守行政中心那我想這個政務官的發言一定要為政策辯護嘛\n\n33\n00:11:45,413 --> 00:11:51,477\n這要為政策辯護嗎?這似乎已經衝擊到本期剛才所講的這個政務官的發言,這個不是我訪問,我們是在督導主政的一個是督導犯罪的一個偵辦的一個政策的一個法律的一個問題嘛所以這個應該由其他主政的機關來回答這個問題,不應該由我來回答這個問題\n\n34\n00:12:10,029 --> 00:12:23,883\n所以委員應該聚焦在我們法務部所主管的這個業務我們先談的是主題為先主題為先你們都是相關的部門嘛但是這個問題不可以我覺得這個問題我沒辦法去幫人家去回答這個問題好那謝謝謝謝部長不好意思好\n\n35\n00:12:27,506 --> 00:12:48,103\n本席這邊談一下啦政務工作下鄉成為現在選舉一個避風港所以呢進入這些高級的政務官進入基層的社區還有校園跟公有的場域進行與罷免直接相關之動員宣講而且明確表態\n\n36\n00:12:49,586 --> 00:12:59,014\n這個行為已經不是單純的個人言論了因為它是在公共場合那也構成了公職身份所延伸的機會與方法實質影響他人的投票行為\n\n37\n00:13:00,114 --> 00:13:29,274\n好那雖然這個行為沒有以命令式的語言或直接特定但是行政資源的意助跟場域的控制已經產生間接性的壓力那在學界也有這樣子的提醒政務官介入選舉程序的審查標準應該以權力密度跟機關屬性為核心不應該僅是以選舉的外貌有沒有免責的依據所以這個德國的聯邦法院\n\n38\n00:13:30,094 --> 00:13:57,535\n也在相關的判例當中我們目前在台灣很少看到這樣的判例國家行政體系應該維持一個中立容器的地位不能成為任何政黨的競選工具在這邊本席提出來也就是如果我們要依據行政中立法其實它的實質影響跟表象的影響應該成為你們的一個借鏡或者是考量的這個因素那我不曉得法務部中選會你們要不要針對這個部分來做一些回應\n\n39\n00:13:59,692 --> 00:14:03,115\n這個跟委員報告部長說不是您的業務然後中選會說是其他相關的業務所以主席為什麼會提出來會議詢論就是這樣嘛大家互相推來推去推來推去我們在這邊也不適合談個案嘛本席談到的是一個制度性的\n\n40\n00:14:18,490 --> 00:14:46,833\n問題嘛所以制度性如果有問題你們回去我們法務部不是行政中立的主管機關所以這個行為但是行政中立行政中立與否會關係到你法務部在檢調系統後面的處置嗎我們是要偵辦犯罪我們不是在處理行政中立的只是說我們在偵辦犯罪行政中立是大家都應該依循的你們每個人在前中後段都跟這些事情有關所以前面如果\n\n41\n00:14:47,293 --> 00:15:08,320\n上樑不正下樑就歪前面的政策策略不對的話你們方向不會是一致的嘛當然我們知道你們在處理有你們的業務嘛但是中立與否這是本席今天要探討的主要的重點嘛所以你出現的成績或今天出席的成績是如此我們如何探討問題嘛\n\n42\n00:15:09,963 --> 00:15:22,876\n你大可以一句這不是我的業務這是別人業務我不熟悉或這不是我的業務我不應該回答這樣子的問題但是我們今天的主題是不是跟所有的單位都有關那你們的出席是不是應該都要能夠回應或至少解討我們對於這個主題所提出來的問題嘛\n\n43\n00:15:33,485 --> 00:15:55,271\n行政中立法沒有排除法務部的適用啊所以部長剛剛那句話我聽不太懂沒有這個行政中立的話這個就要問我曾務官那個行政中立的問題這個不是我的處理的範圍這個要全序部來回答嗎那他為什麼不來回答呢主席沒有請全序部來那你後面的通通都是主席請的嗎\n\n44\n00:15:58,274 --> 00:16:27,011\n那個委員有要請那個施部長上台嗎我想時間的關係請你們把本席所講的內容本席在這邊經常提出的是系統性結構性制度性的問題很少針對個案個案當然是有的時候非常離譜我們拿出來討論從個案可以看整個系統的問題但是本席今天探討的是這個主題所產生的可能系統性的不公\n\n45\n00:16:28,223 --> 00:16:56,799\n那是不是相關的單位可以把本席的意見請讀懂跟了解本席的意見如果現在沒有辦法解決是不是在未來的處理上作為一個參考然後可以處理因應或改變調整跟進步的你們就後續再去處理嘛這樣可以嗎好謝謝委員不過那個部長因為行政中立法並沒有排除法務部的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6442\t33247\t主席福建同仁大家好我先請我在一開始可以做個想要先做個會議詢問主席因為我們今天的主題是就選舉罷免程序中如何落實公務人員韓政務官司法人員 權務人員 恪守行政中立是今天最主要要討論的我們中選會派了唐專員來\n36068\t50275\t剛才我在聽前面的委員質詢的時候呢那專員這邊有提到有一些業務是中選會裡面其他同仁主辦的所以我不知道您覺得這樣出席的成績妥適嗎\n51701\t73157\t那如果說委員認為說這個處理層級不夠的話那我們就考慮說下一次是不是還要再辦一次啦那因為今天他們確實來就是這樣那如果委員有特別要求每一個委員都一樣如果有特別要求那我們就會跟他希望說把這個層級拉高還是說總統選會這邊可不可以說明一下因為委員有疑問\n76996\t84624\t來來麻煩你說明說明一下就是說我們今天請中選會來而且今天的主題跟中選會有關他們認為說這個層級的部分那想請官員解釋要用麥克風\n89437\t114993\t所以我是一定非常尊重你啦只是說因為今天這個主題有它的一個專業性那也必須要知道整個一個廣度所以這個是我提出來的一個主要用意報告委員因為我們的國會聯絡人跟我們說明的時候是說立法院這邊就是只要我們這邊有檢認層級的人員出席就可以了\n115473\t132554\t那另外就是因為今天的這個議題是涉及到的是選務中立、行政中立的一個部分那這一部分跟中選會這邊比較相關有關的業務的處事是法政處啦所以是由法政處這邊的檢任人員出席\n134293\t157282\t還是說如果說委員認為有必要的話那我們下一次如果再安排這個議題我們再請就委員看委員需要到什麼樣的層級過來那我們再跟他特定好的謝謝主席我尊重主席所做的裁決啦好謝謝那請回好謝謝那我是不是先請我們副秘書長副秘書長跟我們法務部的部長副秘書長部長\n163477\t189026\t副秘書長 部長你們好我今天在一開始必須先嚴正的指出來這個新竹縣竹北健身房的負責人這個葉教練那他先前涉及了這個虐童案但是在檢方依法起訴之後呢結果這個被告已經輕易的棄保潛逃而且失聯了那如果比照我們幾週前之前在討論的案子他已經不是個個案囉\n190461\t207177\t所以呢看起來我們的司法體系在積壓裁定抗告權的保障跟限制出境的機制好像存在了制度性的破口那這件案子涉及的是兒童及青少年人身的一個侵害那在依法應該是屬於高度重罪\n208098\t232769\t整個社會對這樣的事情應該也是零容忍但是呢司法程序如果在這麼重大的人身犯罪當中竟然沒有辦法來防止被告脫逃那司法的正當性其實對社會的信任有很大的衝擊那在行政訴訟法93條第一條規定法院於羈押案件裁定前應通知檢察官到場陳述意見\n233789\t256140\t那這個條文呢主要是在確保檢察官在羈押的這個程序當中能夠充分表達這個嫌犯有沒有逃亡的風險有沒有羈押的必要性但是本案在今年二月偵查終結的時候申請羈押但是法院卻沒有通知檢察官出庭進行以三百萬交保\n257000\t283590\t更嚴重的是這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送到檢方那邊使檢方完全喪失了刑事訴訟法第414條抗告的權利無從依法提出不利於檢查積壓的必要性的意見所以在本案當中檢方在2月份偵查結束的時候已經申請了但是法院也沒有通知檢察官來出庭進行裁定300萬交保\n284930\t311207\t那這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送達所以就導致現在的這個結果那在這個情形下那本席這邊也請教法務部檢查體系目前對於重大而少的保護案件在涉及羈押裁定或交保決定的時候有沒有明確的一個內部及時通報標準還有橫向的一個聯繫那在本案當中檢察官沒有辦法及時獲得法院裁定的內容\n311727\t318538\t那這如果是一種制度性的問題 那你們如何補強那如果是人為的疏失 又如何究責請回答\n327643\t341634\t這部分那個以審中的被告以審中的羈押被告是不是這個法院在開那個羈押庭的在第一次開庭的時候在是不是這個法律上是沒有明文規定檢換一定要\n343036\t365134\t但我們希望說這種社會矚目案件包括委員關心的聶桐的這種的案件我們是希望說法院來通知檢來力挺為夷那剛才有提到的就是這種裁定的要送因為裁定這個送達我們不知道為什麼要交保的理由所以裁定送我們才有辦法提出看法而且這要送達給檢察官\n366215\t387155\t對 所以本席這邊提出來就是說你認不認為這樣有一些制度性的缺口需要去做一些因應跟處理制度的話這可以再研議討論而且這個訴訟法這部分是屬於那個司法院主管的法規當然我們可以表示一個意見你覺得這個個案跟我們先前在討論的中文字的也有一點相像嗎\n388038\t397956\t兒子你在這麼短我的意思是說現在主要的人都不在那你們後續要怎麼處理已經這個關鍵因素目前大概已經成為一個很大的障礙對吧\n399138\t428658\t好 所以在這個案件裡面我們看到你們的檢院檢方跟法院之間的資訊斷鏈的真空期就導致這樣一個結果但是這讓社會上很難去接受這個司法還是公義的那請你們做一下內部的檢討不管司法院或者是法務部那你們不能再辦在野的政治人物的事情跑得一個比一個迅速結果這樣子整個社會很關注的有關於滅同的人生的這個部分\n429419\t432851\t結果竟然出這麼大的皮肉我想這需要很大的檢討空間\n436347\t459857\t在今天的這個有關於選務的這個部分如何維持中立我在這邊先講一下這個背景行政中立法第八條到第十條都明定行政中立行政機關及其人員應該公平執行業務執行職務不得利用職務上的權限或影響力為特定政黨或候選人助選跟選舉在這個\n464148\t482448\t罷免或公投的第五條也將公務人員當作適用對象那在第十條的公務人員對於公職人員之選舉罷免或公民投票也不能利用職務上之權利機會或方法要求他人不能行使投票或者是行使一定的方式\n483629\t502554\t所以從2009年以來政務官適用這樣的案例極少也缺乏明顯的或明確的裁量標準但是在整個選舉或罷免的過程當中我們看到透過補助分配或者是行政行動的時機點\n504774\t525275\t還有特定言論的影響選舉的這個氛圍儘管形式上好像沒有展明民事助選但是實質上已經產生了影響選舉公平性跟資源中立性的這樣的衝擊如果沒有法律界限的監督機制那行政中立法就有點形同具聞\n526558\t536923\t所以在行政體系上上位者可全身而退但是基層文官有的時候會成為帶罪羔羊那麼這部分所造成的落差是不是可以請法務部跟周選會這邊來做一個說明\n539364\t564499\t跟委員報告這個是屬於行政中立法這是屬於那個中選那個是那個權序部的一個主管的一個法規所以這部分那什麼時候但是我們現在很清楚的我們碰到的就是選務的不中立要不然請中選會來針對那個行政中立沒有錢的狀況我想我們都不是我們都不是禮盲那這部分我沒辦法幫他回答這個問題好那要不然中選會來回應好嗎\n568956\t584638\t但是檢盜系統的出動應該就跟法務部有很大的關係了剛才本席在內容上也提到所以針對在野黨的追殺一個跑得比一個快我想整個社會都看不下去了那中選會你對這件事情怎麼\n586393\t611195\t報告委員因為其實我們針對這次的罷免不管是各地選委會回來查證的一個結果不管藍綠不管顏色只要我們看到你們都講不管藍綠但是執行的內容選定的人你們真的覺得沒有差異嗎報告委員真的沒有結果你看不出來我看所有的民眾都看得出來你們看不出來\n612962\t636530\t因為我們是針對地方查證的一個結果有這樣子的一個偽造的一個嫌疑我們就移送所以我們沒有特別但是你們找的人的層級讓整個社會有一些懷疑那甚至雖然六點以後就可以進行這樣的事件但是六點半然後找什麼人我想大家都心知肚明本席不在這邊再多贅述好\n638070\t654556\t那剛才本席這邊所談的減調的部分是不是應該去確認一下相關的資源有沒有在特定的時間投入還有減調的介入的時機我想這個都很令人懷疑而且讓我們看到減調的這個不公\n656016\t675367\t似乎是已經整個社會的氛圍這個我要正式的澄清我們這個班絕對是謹守客觀中立的一個角色有犯罪嫌疑我們都要啟動偵查那每個案件的不一樣我們是勿往勿中那可以看一下這個PPT嗎那你覺得\n676588\t704193\t許多的高官應該是九五之尊結果他們在某一些場合的發言您覺得中立嗎您覺得認同嗎這個發言的話為政策辯護我們認為這是一個政務官應該有的一個一個一個就委所以您認同這樣子的發言就對了這個這樣子的發言是OK的這個發言當然我們是希望都是恪守行政中心那我想這個政務官的發言一定要為政策辯護嘛\n705413\t711477\t這要為政策辯護嗎?這似乎已經衝擊到本期剛才所講的這個政務官的發言,這個不是我訪問,我們是在督導主政的一個是督導犯罪的一個偵辦的一個政策的一個法律的一個問題嘛所以這個應該由其他主政的機關來回答這個問題,不應該由我來回答這個問題\n730029\t743883\t所以委員應該聚焦在我們法務部所主管的這個業務我們先談的是主題為先主題為先你們都是相關的部門嘛但是這個問題不可以我覺得這個問題我沒辦法去幫人家去回答這個問題好那謝謝 謝謝部長不好意思好\n747506\t768103\t本席這邊談一下啦政務工作下鄉成為現在選舉一個避風港所以呢進入這些高級的政務官進入基層的社區還有校園跟公有的場域進行與罷免直接相關之動員宣講而且明確表態\n769586\t779014\t這個行為已經不是單純的個人言論了因為它是在公共場合那也構成了公職身份所延伸的機會與方法實質影響他人的投票行為\n780114\t809274\t好那雖然這個行為沒有以命令式的語言或直接特定但是行政資源的意助跟場域的控制已經產生間接性的壓力那在學界也有這樣子的提醒政務官介入選舉程序的審查標準應該以權力密度跟機關屬性為核心不應該僅是以選舉的外貌有沒有免責的依據所以這個德國的聯邦法院\n810094\t837535\t也在相關的判例當中我們目前在台灣很少看到這樣的判例國家行政體系應該維持一個中立容器的地位不能成為任何政黨的競選工具在這邊本席提出來也就是如果我們要依據行政中立法其實它的實質影響跟表象的影響應該成為你們的一個借鏡或者是考量的這個因素那我不曉得法務部中選會你們要不要針對這個部分來做一些回應\n839692\t843115\t這個跟委員報告部長說不是您的業務然後中選會說是其他相關的業務所以主席為什麼會提出來會議詢論就是這樣嘛大家互相推來推去推來推去我們在這邊也不適合談個案嘛本席談到的是一個制度性的\n858490\t886833\t問題嘛 所以制度性如果有問題 你們回去我們法務部不是行政中立的主管機關 所以這個行為但是行政中立行政中立與否會關係到你法務部在檢調系統後面的處置嗎我們是要偵辦犯罪 我們不是在處理行政中立的只是說我們在偵辦犯罪行政中立是大家都應該依循的你們每個人在前中後段都跟這些事情有關所以前面如果\n887293\t908320\t上樑不正下樑就歪前面的政策策略不對的話你們方向不會是一致的嘛當然我們知道你們在處理有你們的業務嘛但是中立與否這是本席今天要探討的主要的重點嘛所以你出現的成績或今天出席的成績是如此我們如何探討問題嘛\n909963\t922876\t你大可以一句這不是我的業務這是別人業務我不熟悉或這不是我的業務我不應該回答這樣子的問題但是我們今天的主題是不是跟所有的單位都有關那你們的出席是不是應該都要能夠回應或至少解討我們對於這個主題所提出來的問題嘛\n933485\t955271\t行政中立法沒有排除法務部的適用啊所以部長剛剛那句話我聽不太懂沒有 這個行政中立的話 這個就要問我曾務官那個行政中立的問題這個不是我的處理的範圍這個要全序部來回答嗎那他為什麼不來回答呢主席沒有請全序部來那你後面的通通都是主席請的嗎\n958274\t987011\t那個委員有要請那個施部長上台嗎我想時間的關係請你們把本席所講的內容本席在這邊經常提出的是系統性結構性制度性的問題很少針對個案個案當然是有的時候非常離譜我們拿出來討論從個案可以看整個系統的問題但是本席今天探討的是這個主題所產生的可能系統性的不公\n988223\t1016799\t那是不是相關的單位可以把本席的意見請讀懂跟了解本席的意見如果現在沒有辦法解決是不是在未來的處理上作為一個參考然後可以處理因應或改變調整跟進步的你們就後續再去處理嘛這樣可以嗎好 謝謝委員不過那個部長因為行政中立法並沒有排除法務部的\n","txt":"主席福建同仁大家好我先請我在一開始可以做個想要先做個會議詢問主席因為我們今天的主題是就選舉罷免程序中如何落實公務人員韓政務官司法人員 權務人員 恪守行政中立是今天最主要要討論的我們中選會派了唐專員來\n剛才我在聽前面的委員質詢的時候呢那專員這邊有提到有一些業務是中選會裡面其他同仁主辦的所以我不知道您覺得這樣出席的成績妥適嗎\n那如果說委員認為說這個處理層級不夠的話那我們就考慮說下一次是不是還要再辦一次啦那因為今天他們確實來就是這樣那如果委員有特別要求每一個委員都一樣如果有特別要求那我們就會跟他希望說把這個層級拉高還是說總統選會這邊可不可以說明一下因為委員有疑問\n來來麻煩你說明說明一下就是說我們今天請中選會來而且今天的主題跟中選會有關他們認為說這個層級的部分那想請官員解釋要用麥克風\n所以我是一定非常尊重你啦只是說因為今天這個主題有它的一個專業性那也必須要知道整個一個廣度所以這個是我提出來的一個主要用意報告委員因為我們的國會聯絡人跟我們說明的時候是說立法院這邊就是只要我們這邊有檢認層級的人員出席就可以了\n那另外就是因為今天的這個議題是涉及到的是選務中立、行政中立的一個部分那這一部分跟中選會這邊比較相關有關的業務的處事是法政處啦所以是由法政處這邊的檢任人員出席\n還是說如果說委員認為有必要的話那我們下一次如果再安排這個議題我們再請就委員看委員需要到什麼樣的層級過來那我們再跟他特定好的謝謝主席我尊重主席所做的裁決啦好謝謝那請回好謝謝那我是不是先請我們副秘書長副秘書長跟我們法務部的部長副秘書長部長\n副秘書長 部長你們好我今天在一開始必須先嚴正的指出來這個新竹縣竹北健身房的負責人這個葉教練那他先前涉及了這個虐童案但是在檢方依法起訴之後呢結果這個被告已經輕易的棄保潛逃而且失聯了那如果比照我們幾週前之前在討論的案子他已經不是個個案囉\n所以呢看起來我們的司法體系在積壓裁定抗告權的保障跟限制出境的機制好像存在了制度性的破口那這件案子涉及的是兒童及青少年人身的一個侵害那在依法應該是屬於高度重罪\n整個社會對這樣的事情應該也是零容忍但是呢司法程序如果在這麼重大的人身犯罪當中竟然沒有辦法來防止被告脫逃那司法的正當性其實對社會的信任有很大的衝擊那在行政訴訟法93條第一條規定法院於羈押案件裁定前應通知檢察官到場陳述意見\n那這個條文呢主要是在確保檢察官在羈押的這個程序當中能夠充分表達這個嫌犯有沒有逃亡的風險有沒有羈押的必要性但是本案在今年二月偵查終結的時候申請羈押但是法院卻沒有通知檢察官出庭進行以三百萬交保\n更嚴重的是這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送到檢方那邊使檢方完全喪失了刑事訴訟法第414條抗告的權利無從依法提出不利於檢查積壓的必要性的意見所以在本案當中檢方在2月份偵查結束的時候已經申請了但是法院也沒有通知檢察官來出庭進行裁定300萬交保\n那這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送達所以就導致現在的這個結果那在這個情形下那本席這邊也請教法務部檢查體系目前對於重大而少的保護案件在涉及羈押裁定或交保決定的時候有沒有明確的一個內部及時通報標準還有橫向的一個聯繫那在本案當中檢察官沒有辦法及時獲得法院裁定的內容\n那這如果是一種制度性的問題 那你們如何補強那如果是人為的疏失 又如何究責請回答\n這部分那個以審中的被告以審中的羈押被告是不是這個法院在開那個羈押庭的在第一次開庭的時候在是不是這個法律上是沒有明文規定檢換一定要\n但我們希望說這種社會矚目案件包括委員關心的聶桐的這種的案件我們是希望說法院來通知檢來力挺為夷那剛才有提到的就是這種裁定的要送因為裁定這個送達我們不知道為什麼要交保的理由所以裁定送我們才有辦法提出看法而且這要送達給檢察官\n對 所以本席這邊提出來就是說你認不認為這樣有一些制度性的缺口需要去做一些因應跟處理制度的話這可以再研議討論而且這個訴訟法這部分是屬於那個司法院主管的法規當然我們可以表示一個意見你覺得這個個案跟我們先前在討論的中文字的也有一點相像嗎\n兒子你在這麼短我的意思是說現在主要的人都不在那你們後續要怎麼處理已經這個關鍵因素目前大概已經成為一個很大的障礙對吧\n好 所以在這個案件裡面我們看到你們的檢院檢方跟法院之間的資訊斷鏈的真空期就導致這樣一個結果但是這讓社會上很難去接受這個司法還是公義的那請你們做一下內部的檢討不管司法院或者是法務部那你們不能再辦在野的政治人物的事情跑得一個比一個迅速結果這樣子整個社會很關注的有關於滅同的人生的這個部分\n結果竟然出這麼大的皮肉我想這需要很大的檢討空間\n在今天的這個有關於選務的這個部分如何維持中立我在這邊先講一下這個背景行政中立法第八條到第十條都明定行政中立行政機關及其人員應該公平執行業務執行職務不得利用職務上的權限或影響力為特定政黨或候選人助選跟選舉在這個\n罷免或公投的第五條也將公務人員當作適用對象那在第十條的公務人員對於公職人員之選舉罷免或公民投票也不能利用職務上之權利機會或方法要求他人不能行使投票或者是行使一定的方式\n所以從2009年以來政務官適用這樣的案例極少也缺乏明顯的或明確的裁量標準但是在整個選舉或罷免的過程當中我們看到透過補助分配或者是行政行動的時機點\n還有特定言論的影響選舉的這個氛圍儘管形式上好像沒有展明民事助選但是實質上已經產生了影響選舉公平性跟資源中立性的這樣的衝擊如果沒有法律界限的監督機制那行政中立法就有點形同具聞\n所以在行政體系上上位者可全身而退但是基層文官有的時候會成為帶罪羔羊那麼這部分所造成的落差是不是可以請法務部跟周選會這邊來做一個說明\n跟委員報告這個是屬於行政中立法這是屬於那個中選那個是那個權序部的一個主管的一個法規所以這部分那什麼時候但是我們現在很清楚的我們碰到的就是選務的不中立要不然請中選會來針對那個行政中立沒有錢的狀況我想我們都不是我們都不是禮盲那這部分我沒辦法幫他回答這個問題好那要不然中選會來回應好嗎\n但是檢盜系統的出動應該就跟法務部有很大的關係了剛才本席在內容上也提到所以針對在野黨的追殺一個跑得比一個快我想整個社會都看不下去了那中選會你對這件事情怎麼\n報告委員因為其實我們針對這次的罷免不管是各地選委會回來查證的一個結果不管藍綠不管顏色只要我們看到你們都講不管藍綠但是執行的內容選定的人你們真的覺得沒有差異嗎報告委員真的沒有結果你看不出來我看所有的民眾都看得出來你們看不出來\n因為我們是針對地方查證的一個結果有這樣子的一個偽造的一個嫌疑我們就移送所以我們沒有特別但是你們找的人的層級讓整個社會有一些懷疑那甚至雖然六點以後就可以進行這樣的事件但是六點半然後找什麼人我想大家都心知肚明本席不在這邊再多贅述好\n那剛才本席這邊所談的減調的部分是不是應該去確認一下相關的資源有沒有在特定的時間投入還有減調的介入的時機我想這個都很令人懷疑而且讓我們看到減調的這個不公\n似乎是已經整個社會的氛圍這個我要正式的澄清我們這個班絕對是謹守客觀中立的一個角色有犯罪嫌疑我們都要啟動偵查那每個案件的不一樣我們是勿往勿中那可以看一下這個PPT嗎那你覺得\n許多的高官應該是九五之尊結果他們在某一些場合的發言您覺得中立嗎您覺得認同嗎這個發言的話為政策辯護我們認為這是一個政務官應該有的一個一個一個就委所以您認同這樣子的發言就對了這個這樣子的發言是OK的這個發言當然我們是希望都是恪守行政中心那我想這個政務官的發言一定要為政策辯護嘛\n這要為政策辯護嗎?這似乎已經衝擊到本期剛才所講的這個政務官的發言,這個不是我訪問,我們是在督導主政的一個是督導犯罪的一個偵辦的一個政策的一個法律的一個問題嘛所以這個應該由其他主政的機關來回答這個問題,不應該由我來回答這個問題\n所以委員應該聚焦在我們法務部所主管的這個業務我們先談的是主題為先主題為先你們都是相關的部門嘛但是這個問題不可以我覺得這個問題我沒辦法去幫人家去回答這個問題好那謝謝 謝謝部長不好意思好\n本席這邊談一下啦政務工作下鄉成為現在選舉一個避風港所以呢進入這些高級的政務官進入基層的社區還有校園跟公有的場域進行與罷免直接相關之動員宣講而且明確表態\n這個行為已經不是單純的個人言論了因為它是在公共場合那也構成了公職身份所延伸的機會與方法實質影響他人的投票行為\n好那雖然這個行為沒有以命令式的語言或直接特定但是行政資源的意助跟場域的控制已經產生間接性的壓力那在學界也有這樣子的提醒政務官介入選舉程序的審查標準應該以權力密度跟機關屬性為核心不應該僅是以選舉的外貌有沒有免責的依據所以這個德國的聯邦法院\n也在相關的判例當中我們目前在台灣很少看到這樣的判例國家行政體系應該維持一個中立容器的地位不能成為任何政黨的競選工具在這邊本席提出來也就是如果我們要依據行政中立法其實它的實質影響跟表象的影響應該成為你們的一個借鏡或者是考量的這個因素那我不曉得法務部中選會你們要不要針對這個部分來做一些回應\n這個跟委員報告部長說不是您的業務然後中選會說是其他相關的業務所以主席為什麼會提出來會議詢論就是這樣嘛大家互相推來推去推來推去我們在這邊也不適合談個案嘛本席談到的是一個制度性的\n問題嘛 所以制度性如果有問題 你們回去我們法務部不是行政中立的主管機關 所以這個行為但是行政中立行政中立與否會關係到你法務部在檢調系統後面的處置嗎我們是要偵辦犯罪 我們不是在處理行政中立的只是說我們在偵辦犯罪行政中立是大家都應該依循的你們每個人在前中後段都跟這些事情有關所以前面如果\n上樑不正下樑就歪前面的政策策略不對的話你們方向不會是一致的嘛當然我們知道你們在處理有你們的業務嘛但是中立與否這是本席今天要探討的主要的重點嘛所以你出現的成績或今天出席的成績是如此我們如何探討問題嘛\n你大可以一句這不是我的業務這是別人業務我不熟悉或這不是我的業務我不應該回答這樣子的問題但是我們今天的主題是不是跟所有的單位都有關那你們的出席是不是應該都要能夠回應或至少解討我們對於這個主題所提出來的問題嘛\n行政中立法沒有排除法務部的適用啊所以部長剛剛那句話我聽不太懂沒有 這個行政中立的話 這個就要問我曾務官那個行政中立的問題這個不是我的處理的範圍這個要全序部來回答嗎那他為什麼不來回答呢主席沒有請全序部來那你後面的通通都是主席請的嗎\n那個委員有要請那個施部長上台嗎我想時間的關係請你們把本席所講的內容本席在這邊經常提出的是系統性結構性制度性的問題很少針對個案個案當然是有的時候非常離譜我們拿出來討論從個案可以看整個系統的問題但是本席今天探討的是這個主題所產生的可能系統性的不公\n那是不是相關的單位可以把本席的意見請讀懂跟了解本席的意見如果現在沒有辦法解決是不是在未來的處理上作為一個參考然後可以處理因應或改變調整跟進步的你們就後續再去處理嘛這樣可以嗎好 謝謝委員不過那個部長因為行政中立法並沒有排除法務部的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.442 --> 00:33.247\n主席福建同仁大家好我先請我在一開始可以做個想要先做個會議詢問主席因為我們今天的主題是就選舉罷免程序中如何落實公務人員韓政務官司法人員權務人員恪守行政中立是今天最主要要討論的我們中選會派了唐專員來\n\n00:36.068 --> 00:50.275\n剛才我在聽前面的委員質詢的時候呢那專員這邊有提到有一些業務是中選會裡面其他同仁主辦的所以我不知道您覺得這樣出席的成績妥適嗎\n\n00:51.701 --> 01:13.157\n那如果說委員認為說這個處理層級不夠的話那我們就考慮說下一次是不是還要再辦一次啦那因為今天他們確實來就是這樣那如果委員有特別要求每一個委員都一樣如果有特別要求那我們就會跟他希望說把這個層級拉高還是說總統選會這邊可不可以說明一下因為委員有疑問\n\n01:16.996 --> 01:24.624\n來來麻煩你說明說明一下就是說我們今天請中選會來而且今天的主題跟中選會有關他們認為說這個層級的部分那想請官員解釋要用麥克風\n\n01:29.437 --> 01:54.993\n所以我是一定非常尊重你啦只是說因為今天這個主題有它的一個專業性那也必須要知道整個一個廣度所以這個是我提出來的一個主要用意報告委員因為我們的國會聯絡人跟我們說明的時候是說立法院這邊就是只要我們這邊有檢認層級的人員出席就可以了\n\n01:55.473 --> 02:12.554\n那另外就是因為今天的這個議題是涉及到的是選務中立、行政中立的一個部分那這一部分跟中選會這邊比較相關有關的業務的處事是法政處啦所以是由法政處這邊的檢任人員出席\n\n02:14.293 --> 02:37.282\n還是說如果說委員認為有必要的話那我們下一次如果再安排這個議題我們再請就委員看委員需要到什麼樣的層級過來那我們再跟他特定好的謝謝主席我尊重主席所做的裁決啦好謝謝那請回好謝謝那我是不是先請我們副秘書長副秘書長跟我們法務部的部長副秘書長部長\n\n02:43.477 --> 03:09.026\n副秘書長部長你們好我今天在一開始必須先嚴正的指出來這個新竹縣竹北健身房的負責人這個葉教練那他先前涉及了這個虐童案但是在檢方依法起訴之後呢結果這個被告已經輕易的棄保潛逃而且失聯了那如果比照我們幾週前之前在討論的案子他已經不是個個案囉\n\n03:10.461 --> 03:27.177\n所以呢看起來我們的司法體系在積壓裁定抗告權的保障跟限制出境的機制好像存在了制度性的破口那這件案子涉及的是兒童及青少年人身的一個侵害那在依法應該是屬於高度重罪\n\n03:28.098 --> 03:52.769\n整個社會對這樣的事情應該也是零容忍但是呢司法程序如果在這麼重大的人身犯罪當中竟然沒有辦法來防止被告脫逃那司法的正當性其實對社會的信任有很大的衝擊那在行政訴訟法93條第一條規定法院於羈押案件裁定前應通知檢察官到場陳述意見\n\n03:53.789 --> 04:16.140\n那這個條文呢主要是在確保檢察官在羈押的這個程序當中能夠充分表達這個嫌犯有沒有逃亡的風險有沒有羈押的必要性但是本案在今年二月偵查終結的時候申請羈押但是法院卻沒有通知檢察官出庭進行以三百萬交保\n\n04:17.000 --> 04:43.590\n更嚴重的是這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送到檢方那邊使檢方完全喪失了刑事訴訟法第414條抗告的權利無從依法提出不利於檢查積壓的必要性的意見所以在本案當中檢方在2月份偵查結束的時候已經申請了但是法院也沒有通知檢察官來出庭進行裁定300萬交保\n\n04:44.930 --> 05:11.207\n那這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送達所以就導致現在的這個結果那在這個情形下那本席這邊也請教法務部檢查體系目前對於重大而少的保護案件在涉及羈押裁定或交保決定的時候有沒有明確的一個內部及時通報標準還有橫向的一個聯繫那在本案當中檢察官沒有辦法及時獲得法院裁定的內容\n\n05:11.727 --> 05:18.538\n那這如果是一種制度性的問題那你們如何補強那如果是人為的疏失又如何究責請回答\n\n05:27.643 --> 05:41.634\n這部分那個以審中的被告以審中的羈押被告是不是這個法院在開那個羈押庭的在第一次開庭的時候在是不是這個法律上是沒有明文規定檢換一定要\n\n05:43.036 --> 06:05.134\n但我們希望說這種社會矚目案件包括委員關心的聶桐的這種的案件我們是希望說法院來通知檢來力挺為夷那剛才有提到的就是這種裁定的要送因為裁定這個送達我們不知道為什麼要交保的理由所以裁定送我們才有辦法提出看法而且這要送達給檢察官\n\n06:06.215 --> 06:27.155\n對所以本席這邊提出來就是說你認不認為這樣有一些制度性的缺口需要去做一些因應跟處理制度的話這可以再研議討論而且這個訴訟法這部分是屬於那個司法院主管的法規當然我們可以表示一個意見你覺得這個個案跟我們先前在討論的中文字的也有一點相像嗎\n\n06:28.038 --> 06:37.956\n兒子你在這麼短我的意思是說現在主要的人都不在那你們後續要怎麼處理已經這個關鍵因素目前大概已經成為一個很大的障礙對吧\n\n06:39.138 --> 07:08.658\n好所以在這個案件裡面我們看到你們的檢院檢方跟法院之間的資訊斷鏈的真空期就導致這樣一個結果但是這讓社會上很難去接受這個司法還是公義的那請你們做一下內部的檢討不管司法院或者是法務部那你們不能再辦在野的政治人物的事情跑得一個比一個迅速結果這樣子整個社會很關注的有關於滅同的人生的這個部分\n\n07:09.419 --> 07:12.851\n結果竟然出這麼大的皮肉我想這需要很大的檢討空間\n\n07:16.347 --> 07:39.857\n在今天的這個有關於選務的這個部分如何維持中立我在這邊先講一下這個背景行政中立法第八條到第十條都明定行政中立行政機關及其人員應該公平執行業務執行職務不得利用職務上的權限或影響力為特定政黨或候選人助選跟選舉在這個\n\n07:44.148 --> 08:02.448\n罷免或公投的第五條也將公務人員當作適用對象那在第十條的公務人員對於公職人員之選舉罷免或公民投票也不能利用職務上之權利機會或方法要求他人不能行使投票或者是行使一定的方式\n\n08:03.629 --> 08:22.554\n所以從2009年以來政務官適用這樣的案例極少也缺乏明顯的或明確的裁量標準但是在整個選舉或罷免的過程當中我們看到透過補助分配或者是行政行動的時機點\n\n08:24.774 --> 08:45.275\n還有特定言論的影響選舉的這個氛圍儘管形式上好像沒有展明民事助選但是實質上已經產生了影響選舉公平性跟資源中立性的這樣的衝擊如果沒有法律界限的監督機制那行政中立法就有點形同具聞\n\n08:46.558 --> 08:56.923\n所以在行政體系上上位者可全身而退但是基層文官有的時候會成為帶罪羔羊那麼這部分所造成的落差是不是可以請法務部跟周選會這邊來做一個說明\n\n08:59.364 --> 09:24.499\n跟委員報告這個是屬於行政中立法這是屬於那個中選那個是那個權序部的一個主管的一個法規所以這部分那什麼時候但是我們現在很清楚的我們碰到的就是選務的不中立要不然請中選會來針對那個行政中立沒有錢的狀況我想我們都不是我們都不是禮盲那這部分我沒辦法幫他回答這個問題好那要不然中選會來回應好嗎\n\n09:28.956 --> 09:44.638\n但是檢盜系統的出動應該就跟法務部有很大的關係了剛才本席在內容上也提到所以針對在野黨的追殺一個跑得比一個快我想整個社會都看不下去了那中選會你對這件事情怎麼\n\n09:46.393 --> 10:11.195\n報告委員因為其實我們針對這次的罷免不管是各地選委會回來查證的一個結果不管藍綠不管顏色只要我們看到你們都講不管藍綠但是執行的內容選定的人你們真的覺得沒有差異嗎報告委員真的沒有結果你看不出來我看所有的民眾都看得出來你們看不出來\n\n10:12.962 --> 10:36.530\n因為我們是針對地方查證的一個結果有這樣子的一個偽造的一個嫌疑我們就移送所以我們沒有特別但是你們找的人的層級讓整個社會有一些懷疑那甚至雖然六點以後就可以進行這樣的事件但是六點半然後找什麼人我想大家都心知肚明本席不在這邊再多贅述好\n\n10:38.070 --> 10:54.556\n那剛才本席這邊所談的減調的部分是不是應該去確認一下相關的資源有沒有在特定的時間投入還有減調的介入的時機我想這個都很令人懷疑而且讓我們看到減調的這個不公\n\n10:56.016 --> 11:15.367\n似乎是已經整個社會的氛圍這個我要正式的澄清我們這個班絕對是謹守客觀中立的一個角色有犯罪嫌疑我們都要啟動偵查那每個案件的不一樣我們是勿往勿中那可以看一下這個PPT嗎那你覺得\n\n11:16.588 --> 11:44.193\n許多的高官應該是九五之尊結果他們在某一些場合的發言您覺得中立嗎您覺得認同嗎這個發言的話為政策辯護我們認為這是一個政務官應該有的一個一個一個就委所以您認同這樣子的發言就對了這個這樣子的發言是OK的這個發言當然我們是希望都是恪守行政中心那我想這個政務官的發言一定要為政策辯護嘛\n\n11:45.413 --> 11:51.477\n這要為政策辯護嗎?這似乎已經衝擊到本期剛才所講的這個政務官的發言,這個不是我訪問,我們是在督導主政的一個是督導犯罪的一個偵辦的一個政策的一個法律的一個問題嘛所以這個應該由其他主政的機關來回答這個問題,不應該由我來回答這個問題\n\n12:10.029 --> 12:23.883\n所以委員應該聚焦在我們法務部所主管的這個業務我們先談的是主題為先主題為先你們都是相關的部門嘛但是這個問題不可以我覺得這個問題我沒辦法去幫人家去回答這個問題好那謝謝謝謝部長不好意思好\n\n12:27.506 --> 12:48.103\n本席這邊談一下啦政務工作下鄉成為現在選舉一個避風港所以呢進入這些高級的政務官進入基層的社區還有校園跟公有的場域進行與罷免直接相關之動員宣講而且明確表態\n\n12:49.586 --> 12:59.014\n這個行為已經不是單純的個人言論了因為它是在公共場合那也構成了公職身份所延伸的機會與方法實質影響他人的投票行為\n\n13:00.114 --> 13:29.274\n好那雖然這個行為沒有以命令式的語言或直接特定但是行政資源的意助跟場域的控制已經產生間接性的壓力那在學界也有這樣子的提醒政務官介入選舉程序的審查標準應該以權力密度跟機關屬性為核心不應該僅是以選舉的外貌有沒有免責的依據所以這個德國的聯邦法院\n\n13:30.094 --> 13:57.535\n也在相關的判例當中我們目前在台灣很少看到這樣的判例國家行政體系應該維持一個中立容器的地位不能成為任何政黨的競選工具在這邊本席提出來也就是如果我們要依據行政中立法其實它的實質影響跟表象的影響應該成為你們的一個借鏡或者是考量的這個因素那我不曉得法務部中選會你們要不要針對這個部分來做一些回應\n\n13:59.692 --> 14:03.115\n這個跟委員報告部長說不是您的業務然後中選會說是其他相關的業務所以主席為什麼會提出來會議詢論就是這樣嘛大家互相推來推去推來推去我們在這邊也不適合談個案嘛本席談到的是一個制度性的\n\n14:18.490 --> 14:46.833\n問題嘛所以制度性如果有問題你們回去我們法務部不是行政中立的主管機關所以這個行為但是行政中立行政中立與否會關係到你法務部在檢調系統後面的處置嗎我們是要偵辦犯罪我們不是在處理行政中立的只是說我們在偵辦犯罪行政中立是大家都應該依循的你們每個人在前中後段都跟這些事情有關所以前面如果\n\n14:47.293 --> 15:08.320\n上樑不正下樑就歪前面的政策策略不對的話你們方向不會是一致的嘛當然我們知道你們在處理有你們的業務嘛但是中立與否這是本席今天要探討的主要的重點嘛所以你出現的成績或今天出席的成績是如此我們如何探討問題嘛\n\n15:09.963 --> 15:22.876\n你大可以一句這不是我的業務這是別人業務我不熟悉或這不是我的業務我不應該回答這樣子的問題但是我們今天的主題是不是跟所有的單位都有關那你們的出席是不是應該都要能夠回應或至少解討我們對於這個主題所提出來的問題嘛\n\n15:33.485 --> 15:55.271\n行政中立法沒有排除法務部的適用啊所以部長剛剛那句話我聽不太懂沒有這個行政中立的話這個就要問我曾務官那個行政中立的問題這個不是我的處理的範圍這個要全序部來回答嗎那他為什麼不來回答呢主席沒有請全序部來那你後面的通通都是主席請的嗎\n\n15:58.274 --> 16:27.011\n那個委員有要請那個施部長上台嗎我想時間的關係請你們把本席所講的內容本席在這邊經常提出的是系統性結構性制度性的問題很少針對個案個案當然是有的時候非常離譜我們拿出來討論從個案可以看整個系統的問題但是本席今天探討的是這個主題所產生的可能系統性的不公\n\n16:28.223 --> 16:56.799\n那是不是相關的單位可以把本席的意見請讀懂跟了解本席的意見如果現在沒有辦法解決是不是在未來的處理上作為一個參考然後可以處理因應或改變調整跟進步的你們就後續再去處理嘛這樣可以嗎好謝謝委員不過那個部長因為行政中立法並沒有排除法務部的\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.442,"end":33.247,"text":"主席福建同仁大家好我先請我在一開始可以做個想要先做個會議詢問主席因為我們今天的主題是就選舉罷免程序中如何落實公務人員韓政務官司法人員 權務人員 恪守行政中立是今天最主要要討論的我們中選會派了唐專員來"},{"start":36.068,"end":50.275,"text":"剛才我在聽前面的委員質詢的時候呢那專員這邊有提到有一些業務是中選會裡面其他同仁主辦的所以我不知道您覺得這樣出席的成績妥適嗎"},{"start":51.701,"end":73.157,"text":"那如果說委員認為說這個處理層級不夠的話那我們就考慮說下一次是不是還要再辦一次啦那因為今天他們確實來就是這樣那如果委員有特別要求每一個委員都一樣如果有特別要求那我們就會跟他希望說把這個層級拉高還是說總統選會這邊可不可以說明一下因為委員有疑問"},{"start":76.996,"end":84.624,"text":"來來麻煩你說明說明一下就是說我們今天請中選會來而且今天的主題跟中選會有關他們認為說這個層級的部分那想請官員解釋要用麥克風"},{"start":89.437,"end":114.993,"text":"所以我是一定非常尊重你啦只是說因為今天這個主題有它的一個專業性那也必須要知道整個一個廣度所以這個是我提出來的一個主要用意報告委員因為我們的國會聯絡人跟我們說明的時候是說立法院這邊就是只要我們這邊有檢認層級的人員出席就可以了"},{"start":115.473,"end":132.554,"text":"那另外就是因為今天的這個議題是涉及到的是選務中立、行政中立的一個部分那這一部分跟中選會這邊比較相關有關的業務的處事是法政處啦所以是由法政處這邊的檢任人員出席"},{"start":134.293,"end":157.282,"text":"還是說如果說委員認為有必要的話那我們下一次如果再安排這個議題我們再請就委員看委員需要到什麼樣的層級過來那我們再跟他特定好的謝謝主席我尊重主席所做的裁決啦好謝謝那請回好謝謝那我是不是先請我們副秘書長副秘書長跟我們法務部的部長副秘書長部長"},{"start":163.477,"end":189.026,"text":"副秘書長 部長你們好我今天在一開始必須先嚴正的指出來這個新竹縣竹北健身房的負責人這個葉教練那他先前涉及了這個虐童案但是在檢方依法起訴之後呢結果這個被告已經輕易的棄保潛逃而且失聯了那如果比照我們幾週前之前在討論的案子他已經不是個個案囉"},{"start":190.461,"end":207.177,"text":"所以呢看起來我們的司法體系在積壓裁定抗告權的保障跟限制出境的機制好像存在了制度性的破口那這件案子涉及的是兒童及青少年人身的一個侵害那在依法應該是屬於高度重罪"},{"start":208.098,"end":232.769,"text":"整個社會對這樣的事情應該也是零容忍但是呢司法程序如果在這麼重大的人身犯罪當中竟然沒有辦法來防止被告脫逃那司法的正當性其實對社會的信任有很大的衝擊那在行政訴訟法93條第一條規定法院於羈押案件裁定前應通知檢察官到場陳述意見"},{"start":233.789,"end":256.14,"text":"那這個條文呢主要是在確保檢察官在羈押的這個程序當中能夠充分表達這個嫌犯有沒有逃亡的風險有沒有羈押的必要性但是本案在今年二月偵查終結的時候申請羈押但是法院卻沒有通知檢察官出庭進行以三百萬交保"},{"start":257,"end":283.59,"text":"更嚴重的是這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送到檢方那邊使檢方完全喪失了刑事訴訟法第414條抗告的權利無從依法提出不利於檢查積壓的必要性的意見所以在本案當中檢方在2月份偵查結束的時候已經申請了但是法院也沒有通知檢察官來出庭進行裁定300萬交保"},{"start":284.93,"end":311.207,"text":"那這個裁定沒有公告也沒有及時送達所以就導致現在的這個結果那在這個情形下那本席這邊也請教法務部檢查體系目前對於重大而少的保護案件在涉及羈押裁定或交保決定的時候有沒有明確的一個內部及時通報標準還有橫向的一個聯繫那在本案當中檢察官沒有辦法及時獲得法院裁定的內容"},{"start":311.727,"end":318.538,"text":"那這如果是一種制度性的問題 那你們如何補強那如果是人為的疏失 又如何究責請回答"},{"start":327.643,"end":341.634,"text":"這部分那個以審中的被告以審中的羈押被告是不是這個法院在開那個羈押庭的在第一次開庭的時候在是不是這個法律上是沒有明文規定檢換一定要"},{"start":343.036,"end":365.134,"text":"但我們希望說這種社會矚目案件包括委員關心的聶桐的這種的案件我們是希望說法院來通知檢來力挺為夷那剛才有提到的就是這種裁定的要送因為裁定這個送達我們不知道為什麼要交保的理由所以裁定送我們才有辦法提出看法而且這要送達給檢察官"},{"start":366.215,"end":387.155,"text":"對 所以本席這邊提出來就是說你認不認為這樣有一些制度性的缺口需要去做一些因應跟處理制度的話這可以再研議討論而且這個訴訟法這部分是屬於那個司法院主管的法規當然我們可以表示一個意見你覺得這個個案跟我們先前在討論的中文字的也有一點相像嗎"},{"start":388.038,"end":397.956,"text":"兒子你在這麼短我的意思是說現在主要的人都不在那你們後續要怎麼處理已經這個關鍵因素目前大概已經成為一個很大的障礙對吧"},{"start":399.138,"end":428.658,"text":"好 所以在這個案件裡面我們看到你們的檢院檢方跟法院之間的資訊斷鏈的真空期就導致這樣一個結果但是這讓社會上很難去接受這個司法還是公義的那請你們做一下內部的檢討不管司法院或者是法務部那你們不能再辦在野的政治人物的事情跑得一個比一個迅速結果這樣子整個社會很關注的有關於滅同的人生的這個部分"},{"start":429.419,"end":432.851,"text":"結果竟然出這麼大的皮肉我想這需要很大的檢討空間"},{"start":436.347,"end":459.857,"text":"在今天的這個有關於選務的這個部分如何維持中立我在這邊先講一下這個背景行政中立法第八條到第十條都明定行政中立行政機關及其人員應該公平執行業務執行職務不得利用職務上的權限或影響力為特定政黨或候選人助選跟選舉在這個"},{"start":464.148,"end":482.448,"text":"罷免或公投的第五條也將公務人員當作適用對象那在第十條的公務人員對於公職人員之選舉罷免或公民投票也不能利用職務上之權利機會或方法要求他人不能行使投票或者是行使一定的方式"},{"start":483.629,"end":502.554,"text":"所以從2009年以來政務官適用這樣的案例極少也缺乏明顯的或明確的裁量標準但是在整個選舉或罷免的過程當中我們看到透過補助分配或者是行政行動的時機點"},{"start":504.774,"end":525.275,"text":"還有特定言論的影響選舉的這個氛圍儘管形式上好像沒有展明民事助選但是實質上已經產生了影響選舉公平性跟資源中立性的這樣的衝擊如果沒有法律界限的監督機制那行政中立法就有點形同具聞"},{"start":526.558,"end":536.923,"text":"所以在行政體系上上位者可全身而退但是基層文官有的時候會成為帶罪羔羊那麼這部分所造成的落差是不是可以請法務部跟周選會這邊來做一個說明"},{"start":539.364,"end":564.499,"text":"跟委員報告這個是屬於行政中立法這是屬於那個中選那個是那個權序部的一個主管的一個法規所以這部分那什麼時候但是我們現在很清楚的我們碰到的就是選務的不中立要不然請中選會來針對那個行政中立沒有錢的狀況我想我們都不是我們都不是禮盲那這部分我沒辦法幫他回答這個問題好那要不然中選會來回應好嗎"},{"start":568.956,"end":584.638,"text":"但是檢盜系統的出動應該就跟法務部有很大的關係了剛才本席在內容上也提到所以針對在野黨的追殺一個跑得比一個快我想整個社會都看不下去了那中選會你對這件事情怎麼"},{"start":586.393,"end":611.195,"text":"報告委員因為其實我們針對這次的罷免不管是各地選委會回來查證的一個結果不管藍綠不管顏色只要我們看到你們都講不管藍綠但是執行的內容選定的人你們真的覺得沒有差異嗎報告委員真的沒有結果你看不出來我看所有的民眾都看得出來你們看不出來"},{"start":612.962,"end":636.53,"text":"因為我們是針對地方查證的一個結果有這樣子的一個偽造的一個嫌疑我們就移送所以我們沒有特別但是你們找的人的層級讓整個社會有一些懷疑那甚至雖然六點以後就可以進行這樣的事件但是六點半然後找什麼人我想大家都心知肚明本席不在這邊再多贅述好"},{"start":638.07,"end":654.556,"text":"那剛才本席這邊所談的減調的部分是不是應該去確認一下相關的資源有沒有在特定的時間投入還有減調的介入的時機我想這個都很令人懷疑而且讓我們看到減調的這個不公"},{"start":656.016,"end":675.367,"text":"似乎是已經整個社會的氛圍這個我要正式的澄清我們這個班絕對是謹守客觀中立的一個角色有犯罪嫌疑我們都要啟動偵查那每個案件的不一樣我們是勿往勿中那可以看一下這個PPT嗎那你覺得"},{"start":676.588,"end":704.193,"text":"許多的高官應該是九五之尊結果他們在某一些場合的發言您覺得中立嗎您覺得認同嗎這個發言的話為政策辯護我們認為這是一個政務官應該有的一個一個一個就委所以您認同這樣子的發言就對了這個這樣子的發言是OK的這個發言當然我們是希望都是恪守行政中心那我想這個政務官的發言一定要為政策辯護嘛"},{"start":705.413,"end":711.477,"text":"這要為政策辯護嗎?這似乎已經衝擊到本期剛才所講的這個政務官的發言,這個不是我訪問,我們是在督導主政的一個是督導犯罪的一個偵辦的一個政策的一個法律的一個問題嘛所以這個應該由其他主政的機關來回答這個問題,不應該由我來回答這個問題"},{"start":730.029,"end":743.883,"text":"所以委員應該聚焦在我們法務部所主管的這個業務我們先談的是主題為先主題為先你們都是相關的部門嘛但是這個問題不可以我覺得這個問題我沒辦法去幫人家去回答這個問題好那謝謝 謝謝部長不好意思好"},{"start":747.506,"end":768.103,"text":"本席這邊談一下啦政務工作下鄉成為現在選舉一個避風港所以呢進入這些高級的政務官進入基層的社區還有校園跟公有的場域進行與罷免直接相關之動員宣講而且明確表態"},{"start":769.586,"end":779.014,"text":"這個行為已經不是單純的個人言論了因為它是在公共場合那也構成了公職身份所延伸的機會與方法實質影響他人的投票行為"},{"start":780.114,"end":809.274,"text":"好那雖然這個行為沒有以命令式的語言或直接特定但是行政資源的意助跟場域的控制已經產生間接性的壓力那在學界也有這樣子的提醒政務官介入選舉程序的審查標準應該以權力密度跟機關屬性為核心不應該僅是以選舉的外貌有沒有免責的依據所以這個德國的聯邦法院"},{"start":810.094,"end":837.535,"text":"也在相關的判例當中我們目前在台灣很少看到這樣的判例國家行政體系應該維持一個中立容器的地位不能成為任何政黨的競選工具在這邊本席提出來也就是如果我們要依據行政中立法其實它的實質影響跟表象的影響應該成為你們的一個借鏡或者是考量的這個因素那我不曉得法務部中選會你們要不要針對這個部分來做一些回應"},{"start":839.692,"end":843.115,"text":"這個跟委員報告部長說不是您的業務然後中選會說是其他相關的業務所以主席為什麼會提出來會議詢論就是這樣嘛大家互相推來推去推來推去我們在這邊也不適合談個案嘛本席談到的是一個制度性的"},{"start":858.49,"end":886.833,"text":"問題嘛 所以制度性如果有問題 你們回去我們法務部不是行政中立的主管機關 所以這個行為但是行政中立行政中立與否會關係到你法務部在檢調系統後面的處置嗎我們是要偵辦犯罪 我們不是在處理行政中立的只是說我們在偵辦犯罪行政中立是大家都應該依循的你們每個人在前中後段都跟這些事情有關所以前面如果"},{"start":887.293,"end":908.32,"text":"上樑不正下樑就歪前面的政策策略不對的話你們方向不會是一致的嘛當然我們知道你們在處理有你們的業務嘛但是中立與否這是本席今天要探討的主要的重點嘛所以你出現的成績或今天出席的成績是如此我們如何探討問題嘛"},{"start":909.963,"end":922.876,"text":"你大可以一句這不是我的業務這是別人業務我不熟悉或這不是我的業務我不應該回答這樣子的問題但是我們今天的主題是不是跟所有的單位都有關那你們的出席是不是應該都要能夠回應或至少解討我們對於這個主題所提出來的問題嘛"},{"start":933.485,"end":955.271,"text":"行政中立法沒有排除法務部的適用啊所以部長剛剛那句話我聽不太懂沒有 這個行政中立的話 這個就要問我曾務官那個行政中立的問題這個不是我的處理的範圍這個要全序部來回答嗎那他為什麼不來回答呢主席沒有請全序部來那你後面的通通都是主席請的嗎"},{"start":958.274,"end":987.011,"text":"那個委員有要請那個施部長上台嗎我想時間的關係請你們把本席所講的內容本席在這邊經常提出的是系統性結構性制度性的問題很少針對個案個案當然是有的時候非常離譜我們拿出來討論從個案可以看整個系統的問題但是本席今天探討的是這個主題所產生的可能系統性的不公"},{"start":988.223,"end":1016.799,"text":"那是不是相關的單位可以把本席的意見請讀懂跟了解本席的意見如果現在沒有辦法解決是不是在未來的處理上作為一個參考然後可以處理因應或改變調整跟進步的你們就後續再去處理嘛這樣可以嗎好 謝謝委員不過那個部長因為行政中立法並沒有排除法務部的"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時5分）主席、府院同仁，大家好。我在一開始想要先做個會議詢問。"],["主席：好，沒問題。"],["林委員倩綺：主席，我們今天的主題是選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官、司法人員、選務人員恪守行政中立，這是今天最主要要討論的，但中選會派了唐專委來。剛才我在聽前面的委員質詢的時候，專委提到有一些業務是中選會裡面其他同仁主辦的，我不知道您覺得這樣出席的層級妥適嗎？"],["主席：當然，如果有委員認為這個出席層級不夠的話，我們就考慮下一次是不是還要再辦一次，因為今天他們確實來就是這樣。每一個委員都一樣，如果委員有特別要求，我們就會希望它把層級拉高。還是說中選會可不可以說明一下？因為我也有疑問。來，麻煩你說明一下，我們今天請中選會，而且今天的主題跟中選會有關，他們認為這個層級的部分想請官員解釋，要用麥克風。"],["林委員倩綺：專委，我一定是非常尊重你，只是因為今天這個主題有它的專業性，也必須要知道整個廣度，這個是我提出來主要的用意。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，因為我們的國會聯絡人跟我們說明時是說院方，即立法院只要我們有簡任層級的人員出席就可以了。另外，因為今天這個議題涉及的是選務中立、行政中立，這一部分跟中選會比較有關的業務處室是法政處，所以是由法政處的簡任人員出席。"],["主席：還是委員認為有必要的話，我們下一次如果再安排這個議題，我們再看委員需要到什麼樣的層級過來，我們再跟他特定？"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝主席，我尊重主席所做的裁決。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。我是不是先請王副秘書長跟法務部的部長？"],["主席：好，副秘書長、部長。"],["林委員倩綺：副秘書長、部長，你們好。我今天在一開始必須先嚴正指出來，新竹縣竹北健身房的負責人葉教練，他先前涉及了虐童案，但是在檢方依法起訴之後，結果這個被告已經輕易的棄保潛逃而且失聯了。如果比照我們幾週之前在討論的案子，他已經不是個案了，所以看起來我們的司法體系在羈押裁定、抗告權保障和限制出境的機制好像存在了制度性的破口。這件案子涉及的是兒童及青少年人身的侵害，依法應該是屬於高度重罪，整個社會對這樣的事情應該也是零容忍。但是司法程序在這麼重大的人身犯罪當中，竟然沒有辦法防止被告脫逃，司法的正當性其實對社會的信任有很大的衝擊。","刑事訴訟法第九十三條第一項規定，法院於羈押案件裁定前，應通知檢察官到場陳述意見。這個條文主要是在確保檢察官在羈押的程序當中，能夠充分表達嫌犯有沒有逃亡的風險、有沒有羈押的必要性。本案在今年2月偵查終結的時候聲請羈押，但是法院卻沒有通知檢察官出庭，逕行以300萬交保，更嚴重的是這個裁定沒有公告，也沒有及時送到檢方那邊，使檢方完全喪失刑事訴訟法第四百十四條抗告的權利，無從依法提出不利於羈押必要性的意見，所以在本案當中，檢方在2月份偵查結束的時候已經聲請了，但是法院也沒有通知檢察官出庭，逕行裁定300萬交保，這個裁定沒有公告也沒有即時送達，所以就導致現在這個結果。在這個情形下，本席請教法務部，檢察體系目前對於重大兒少的保護案件，在涉及羈押裁定或交保決定的時候，有沒有一個明確的內部即時通報標準還有橫向的聯繫？在本案當中，檢察官沒有辦法及時獲得法院裁定的內容，這如果是一種制度性的問題，你們如何補強？如果是人為的疏失，又如何究責？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於移審中的羈押被告，法律沒有明文規定檢方在法院第一次開庭的時候一定要到場，但我們希望這種社會矚目案件，包括委員關心的虐童案件，我們是希望法院通知檢察官蒞庭為宜。剛才有提到這一種裁定的送達，因為我們不知道交保的理由，所以裁定送達我們才有辦法提出看法，而且這要送達給檢察官。"],["林委員倩綺：所以本席提出來，你認不認為這樣有一些制度性的缺口，需要去做一些因應跟處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：制度的話可以再研議討論，而且訴訟法這部分是屬於司法院主管的法規，當然我們可以表示意見。"],["林委員倩綺：你不覺得這個個案跟我們先前在討論的鍾文智的案子有一點相像嗎？我的意思是現在主要的人都不在，你們後續要怎麼處理，這個關鍵因素目前大概已經成為一個很大的障礙，對吧？所以在這個案件裡面，我們看到了檢方跟法院之間資訊斷鏈的真空期，導致這樣的結果，這讓社會很難接受司法還是公義的。請你們做一下內部的檢討，不管是司法院或法務部，你們不能在辦在野政治人物的事情，跑得一個比一個迅速，結果整個社會很關注的有關虐童的人身的部分竟然出這麼大的紕漏，我想這有很大的檢討空間。","有關於選務的部分如何維持中立，我在這邊先講一下背景，行政中立法第八條到第十條都明定行政中立，行政機關及其人員應該公平執行業務，執行職務不得利用職務上的權限或影響力，為特定政黨或候選人助選跟選舉；在罷免或公投上，第五條也將公務人員當作適用對象；第十條也規定公務人員對於公職人員之選舉、罷免或公民投票，不能利用職務上之權力、機會或方法，要求他人不能行使投票，或者是行使一定的方式。所以從2009年以來，政務官適用的案例極少，也缺乏明顯或明確的裁量標準，但是在整個選舉或罷免的過程當中，我們看到政務官透過補助、分配或者是行政行動時機操作，還有以特定言論影響選舉的氛圍，儘管形式上好像沒有明示助選，但是實質上已經產生了影響選舉公平性跟資源中立性這樣的衝擊，如果沒有法律界線的監督機制，那行政中立法就有點形同具文，所以在行政體系上上位者可全身而退，但是基層文官有時候會成為代罪羔羊，這部分所造成的落差，是不是可以請法務部跟中選會來做一個說明？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個是屬於行政中立法，是屬於銓敘部主管的法規。"],["林委員倩綺：但是現在很清楚的，我們碰到的就是選務的不中立，要不要請中選會針對目前的狀況……"],["鄭部長銘謙：選務是中選會，我沒辦法幫他回答這個問題。"],["林委員倩綺：我想我們都不是理盲，要不然中選會來回應，好嗎？但是檢調系統的出動應該就跟法務部有很大的關係，剛才本席在內容上也提到，針對在野黨的追殺一個跑得比一個快，我想整個社會都看不下去了，請中選會對這件事情提供一下意見。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，其實我們針對這次的罷免，各地選委會回來查證的結果，不管藍綠、不管顏色，只要……"],["林委員倩綺：是啊，我們看到你們都講不管藍綠，但是執行的內容、選定的人，你們真的覺得沒有差異嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，真的沒有。"],["林委員倩綺：結果你看不出來喔？我看所有的民眾都看得出來，您看不出來喔？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：因為我們是針對地方查證的結果，有偽造的嫌疑，我們就移送，所以我們沒有特別……"],["林委員倩綺：都有偽造，但是你們找的人的層級，讓整個社會有一些懷疑，雖然6點以後就可以進行這樣的事件，但是6點半然後找什麼人，我想大家都心知肚明，本席不在這邊贅述。剛才本席所談的檢調部分，是不是應該去確認一下相關的資源有沒有在特定的時間投入，還有檢調的介入的時機，我想這整個都很令人懷疑，而且讓我們看到檢調的不公似乎已經是整個社會的氛圍。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我要正式的澄清，我們辦案絕對是謹守客觀中立的角色，有犯罪嫌疑我們都要啟動偵查，那每個案件不一樣，我們是毋枉毋縱。"],["林委員倩綺：請看一下PPT，許多高官，應該是九五之尊，結果他們在某一些場合的發言，您覺得中立嗎？您覺得認同嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：發言為政策辯護，我們認為這是一個政務官應該有的作為。"],["林委員倩綺：所以您認同這樣的發言就對了？這樣的發言是OK的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是這個發言當然我們是希望恪守行政中立，我想政務官的發言一定要為政策辯護嘛。"],["林委員倩綺：這叫為政策辯護嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員關心的這些事……"],["林委員倩綺：這似乎已經衝擊到本席剛才所講的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：政務官的發言，不是我法務部，我們是在督導犯罪偵辦政策的法律問題，所以是否行政中立應該由其他主政的機關來回答，不應該由我來回答這個問題。委員應該聚焦在我們法務部所主管的業務。"],["林委員倩綺：我們今天談的是主題為先，你們都是相關部門嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我覺得這個問題我沒辦法去幫人家回答。"],["林委員倩綺：那謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不好意思。"],["林委員倩綺：本席談一下政務工作下鄉現在成為選舉的一個避風港，這些高級的政務官進入基層社區、校園跟公有場域，進行與罷免直接相關之動員宣講，而且明確表態，這個行為已經不是單純的個人言論，因為他是在公共場合，那也構成了公職身分所延伸的機會與方法，實質影響他人的投票行為，雖然這個行為沒有以命令式語言或直接特定，但是行政資源的挹注跟場域的控制已經產生間接性的壓力，學界也有這樣子的提醒，政務官介入選舉程序的審查標準應該以權力密度跟機關屬性為核心，不應該僅是以選舉的外貌有沒有免責為依據。德國聯邦法院也在相關的判例當中，我們目前在臺灣很少看到這樣的判例，國家行政體系應該維持一個中立容器的地位，不能成為任何政黨的競選工具。在這邊本席提出來，就是如果我們要依據行政中立法，其實它的實質影響跟表象的影響應該成為你們借鏡或考量的因素，我不曉得法務部和中選會要不要針對這個部分來做一些回應。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["林委員倩綺：部長說不是您的業務，然後中選會說是其他相關的業務，所以主席，我為什麼會提出會議詢問，就是這樣嘛，大家互相推來推去。"],["鄭部長銘謙：行政中立法是銓敘部的，所以是……"],["林委員倩綺：我們在這邊也不適合談個案嘛，本席談到的是一個制度性的問題，制度性如果有問題，你們回去……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員澄清一下，我們法務部不是行政中立法的主管機關，所以委員關心的政務官是不是要行政中立，並不是我們法務部要回答的。"],["林委員倩綺：但是行政中立與否關係到法務部在檢調系統後面的處置嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是要偵辦犯罪，我們不是在處理行政中立的，只是說我們在偵辦犯罪……"],["林委員倩綺：行政中立是大家都應該要依循的，你們每個人在前中後段都跟這些事情有關，前面如果上梁不正，下梁就歪；前面的政策、策略不對的話，你們的方向不會是一致的嘛！當然我們知道你們有你們的業務要處理，但是中立與否是本席今天要探討的主要重點。今天出現的層級或出席的層級是如此，我們要如何探討問題？你大可以用一句來回答：這不是我的業務；這是別人的業務我不熟悉；這不是我的業務，我不應該回答這樣子的問題。但是我們今天的主題是不是跟所有的單位都有關？"],["鄭部長銘謙：今天列席的各部會都各有職掌，而且行政中立的主管機關今天也有來列席……"],["林委員倩綺：你們列席應該都要能夠回應或至少檢討我們對於這個主題提出來的問題嘛！"],["主席：沒事啦！請繼續。但我補充一下，行政中立法沒有排除法務部的適用，所以部長剛剛那句話我有點聽不太懂。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，要問我政務官關於行政中立的問題，這個不是我的處理範圍啊！這個要銓敘部來回答嘛！"],["林委員倩綺：好啊！那他為什麼不來回答呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：主席沒有請銓敘部來……"],["林委員倩綺：那你後面那些人通通都是主席請上來的嗎？"],["主席：委員有要請施部長上臺嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：我想時間的關係，請你們針對本席所講的內容，本席在這邊經常提出的是系統性、結構性、制度性的問題，很少是針對個案，當然有的個案非常的離譜所以我們拿出來討論，因為從個案可以看出整個系統的問題。但是本席今天探討的是，這個主題所產生的可能的系統性不公。是不是請相關單位讀懂並了解本席的意見？如果現在沒有辦法解決，是不是在未來的處理上作為參考，可以處理、因應、改變、調整跟進步的，你們後續再去處理，這樣可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝委員，好，請回。不過，部長，因為行政中立法並沒有排除法務部的適用，所以如果委員請教您法務部裡面有關行政中立的部分，部長說這不是我業管的，這就有點奇怪，因為行政中立法我們法務部的同仁還是要遵守；如果他問到的是法規內容，當然就是請銓敘部長來說明。好，謝謝部長。","下一位我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}}