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723.818, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 723.818, \"end\": 724.199, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 724.199, \"end\": 724.279, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 724.279, \"end\": 724.319, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 724.319, \"end\": 724.5, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 724.5, \"end\": 724.52, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,421 --> 00:00:12,191\n好謝謝主席麻煩部長部長早我在開始今天尋討之前\n\n2\n00:00:14,175 --> 00:00:33,073\n比較難過要點出一件事情我們在立法院立委再怎麼大都要依照法律來行事立法院做任何決議再怎麼了不起都不能逾越憲法這跟部長無關所以你表情不要那麼嚴肅等一下會以為我在罵你\n\n3\n00:00:35,703 --> 00:00:57,734\n事實上國安會該不該來立法院備詢不用看這一任也不用看蔡英文總統這一任看馬英九總統那一任他有憲法規定有運作慣例根據中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第四項國家安全會議組織法的第二條第一項\n\n4\n00:00:59,344 --> 00:01:25,090\n裡面就明明規定國安會因為你以前是國安會秘書長國安會是國家安全有關大政方針之諮詢機關不是政策執行的處置機關所以除非涉及有關的法律案比方說組織條例或者預算案比方說年度預算送到立法院審議外不致立法院報告被尋以符合憲政體制\n\n5\n00:01:26,070 --> 00:01:50,548\n我們當然可以找到很多偉大的理由要負責啊要國家安全啊但是如果我們一個國家的鋼長不照法律來進行任何了不起的理由都可以逾越法律跟憲法規定我們就會通過一大堆違憲的決議案我們就會通過一大堆違憲的無效的擴權案立法院過去一年的亂象不是來自於這裡嗎人民的憂慮不是來自於這裡嗎所以\n\n6\n00:01:53,359 --> 00:02:13,688\n我今天在一開始我必須提出這一點就是我都認為所有會議就可以開該來備詢就來備詢但是要根據法律跟憲政那回到這個部長我有個概念性問題要請教當然我們台美之間有deficit有貿易赤字的問題那我上次有私下就教於您其實我們現在對美國的軍購\n\n7\n00:02:14,949 --> 00:02:39,479\n大概有三種類別一個叫做FMS甚至有的是叫FMSonly就是只能採取軍售的管道那個是透過美軍幫我們買我們就是buyer這個坦白講對台灣來講比較輕鬆但是有時候巡駕報價會產生過去也發生愛國者飛彈等等一些問題另外一個是DCS商售這也是軍購但他走DCS\n\n8\n00:02:40,922 --> 00:03:07,068\n另外一種叫做commercialtransaction就是我們把它翻成軍民通它就是類似商售的方式那在一般的運作在軍民通的部分可以列入貿易額度可以把那個赤字扣掉在一般的狀況在商售的話有些狀況也可以把它扣掉所以我是建議啦我這個純屬建議這個軍售部分由您主責就是說在基於降低台美貿易赤字\n\n9\n00:03:07,984 --> 00:03:19,723\n以及這個有利於技術移轉扶持本土的軍工產業的三個條件以及價格不變性能一樣的前提下\n\n10\n00:03:20,899 --> 00:03:48,898\n我不知道部長認不認同其實我們對美的軍購如果能夠走商售或者走軍民通的話事實上會有這些好處但我剛才講那個前提一定要守住價格要低於它性能不能改變那它增加了售後服務增加了技術移轉那算雞蛋了我剛才講這一段是不是部長有什麼想法我們確實在軍售以外有\n\n11\n00:03:51,238 --> 00:04:15,174\n商售的這個部分也是有一定程度的一個增加跟考量我剛才這個順序給部裡面做參考這個是建議就是說當我們尤其我知道軍種的或者是我們這個戰規師這邊有時候我們會比較省麻煩的就是走軍售省麻煩但是如果走DCS\n\n12\n00:04:15,970 --> 00:04:42,904\n或者走這個commercialtransaction他可能會多一些麻煩但是這過程當中如果對國家有利我們買方也就是軍種所有需求都達標的話有時候多費一點心神做對國家有利的事情這是本席對國防部的建議好接下來一個是有關無人機的部分我們國防部委託中科院製造的無人機干擾槍310支\n\n13\n00:04:46,660 --> 00:05:01,846\n聽說因為頻率的問題還有查資能力的問題這310支其實不太有用我不曉得使用者不管是陸軍或者各營區對這個干擾槍現在是怎麼處理這干擾槍好不好用\n\n14\n00:05:07,113 --> 00:05:28,839\n委員好,我是作記室次長,向委員報告,這個干擾槍主要的對象是針對小型的一二類的無人機,它是定頻的還是變頻的?它有針對無人機遙控的頻率,有設定相應的頻段,那會來做...然後我拿了干擾槍,我怎麼知道無人機來了,那個查資系統,或者講雷達拉,那個感知系統怎麼來?\n\n15\n00:05:30,064 --> 00:05:54,545\n因為小型的無人機在現況我們在用這種防空雷達目前是增貨能力比較沒有辦法那個有另外的雷達啦因為雷達就跟波長有關嘛你那個網子越密看得越近就近視眼那你要看得越遠長程預警雷達它就近的東西就看不太見這個我們理解我的意思是說我現在拿著一個干擾槍\n\n16\n00:05:55,706 --> 00:06:08,782\n我是營區的守衛你們現在鋼老槍的作業方式他們是放在是放在營區的槍械庫裡面還是放在待命班的手上握在手上是然後用目獲的方式來攔截是\n\n17\n00:06:09,775 --> 00:06:33,876\n所以這個對小型無人機,其實小型無人機在100米以上,目獲其實有相當困難這一個我知道你們有要建置這個感知系統,沒有感知系統單純靠這個攔截效能是有限的那我這邊要請教就是說目前部長我們國防部,其實每個兵都有專長都有執掌那現代戰場上無人機跟反無人機幾乎是非常重要的要素了\n\n18\n00:06:34,830 --> 00:06:44,819\n就我去查起來我們現在在部隊裡面的編制並沒有這個不管是待命班什麼並沒有專長編制有關這個反無人機的部分\n\n19\n00:06:46,238 --> 00:07:09,079\n包委員這個由我再來補充就現行的我們國軍建制的反制系統以中科院這一套UDS裡面所配置的無人機干擾槍但是未來同步我們再檢討包含外島的反制無人機系統它裡面就會有徵收然後干擾的相關的配備那其次在部隊使用的部分現在我們正在配合兵力結構調整\n\n20\n00:07:11,101 --> 00:07:37,315\n這個其實比較適合回答的是軍總來回答我們每個兵機槍兵什麼兵防空兵什麼兵他會有一個編制跟執掌的我問的問題是我們現在部隊裡面有沒有無人機跟反無人機這個兵的專長編碼或者專長編制現在好像沒有無人機的您說他操作無人機的一個要有一個編制我們現在沒有這個編制他是用第五兵第五員監管這個東西\n\n21\n00:07:39,316 --> 00:07:49,025\n現在如果講說他的那個符號上面動員的專長的編碼符號我們現在已經有列入無人機的但是我們在部隊的編制\n\n22\n00:07:50,777 --> 00:08:07,961\n事實上沒有一個執掌專責的是負責這一塊啦他等於是第五員監管嘛這個應該要去問因為你如果講的是單純的一個無人機的干擾槍這樣子的話這個部分是每一個衛哨或代理班的人員都要來操作但現在假設\n\n23\n00:08:10,422 --> 00:08:28,662\n但假設是屬於比較具有攻擊性的無人機或可以稱為一種火力的話海軍陸戰隊事實上已經成立了無人機我們現在在營區裡面的待命班現在並沒有專長編制負責這一塊他都是找一個\n\n24\n00:08:29,383 --> 00:08:41,858\n得監管那怎麼做比較好我覺得可以思考一下因為這個威脅其實將來會越來越多啦那因為我還有兩個題目我借一分鐘另外一個事情我們現在三軍官校學生到國外就讀軍校的員額\n\n25\n00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:58,907\n聽說因為預算因為編列一億一千多萬那三減了一千七百四十六萬再加上凍結數等等所以十二元出國都已經有十二個申請到國外就讀軍校了現在只剩下四個\n\n26\n00:09:00,431 --> 00:09:20,576\n縮減了一半,這個事情是否為真?是,現在因為那個原訂護國外就讀的有12人,現在只能夠致應4人護外國就讀所以影響就保留到明年,影響大概有8個人這影響蠻大的,有沒有什麼補救的原因?補救的方法?\n\n27\n00:09:22,871 --> 00:09:45,643\n我們就把它延到應該是延到明年因為明年原來這八個還是他們嗎?明年有明年的那個人員要出去啊我們在今年編列預算的時候我們會連同這個一起編列上去所以這八個人的權益是把它挪到明年?是是因為這個會坦白講我們能夠出國受訓都是我們優秀的軍官那因為這樣子12個剩下4個\n\n28\n00:09:48,024 --> 00:10:16,755\n當然會有一些失落感那我是覺得如果我們在預算籌措上沒有問題的話能夠按照年度執行會比較好移到明年他是跟下一期的一起那跟下一期跟學第一期未必不可但是每個人都有一年一年的生涯規劃這樣就慢了一年所以我還是建議部長在能夠籌措的範圍內今年如果能夠12元還是要滿足12元因為今年主要是因為那個是他通善的部分是不得\n\n29\n00:10:17,515 --> 00:10:24,953\n不得留用不得留用因為不得留用很麻煩就是那個不得留用讓這12個優秀軍人要出國受訓變剩4個這個坦白講是\n\n30\n00:10:28,513 --> 00:10:47,744\n可惜因為軍人每一個年班每個年班有他的梯次慢了一年其實影響很大所以我還是懇求部長我們一起找個方法看這塊預算怎麼處理讓這八位可以一樣維持出國秀訓這是我們優秀的軍人我們還是要找個方法了你弄到明年一定有影響不會沒有影響\n\n31\n00:10:48,913 --> 00:11:12,846\n因為他今年特別過去通商的項目沒有決議說不得了用我們今天國家總預算的處理方式大家都談了我就不變再多說了有些部分造成災難我最後只請教一件事情你們那個揭密人員的認證未來會不會因為你們現在建立在個人的賓資資料裡面所以未來要升遷到某個職務要去佔缺\n\n32\n00:11:14,028 --> 00:11:30,218\n如果他在揭密認證的值等他的那個等級沒有符合他要去的位置是不是就不能升遷也不能調動會有沒有這個會不會影響到這一塊會因為他跟人資系統結合因為我們以前是對事情來做保密嘛\n\n33\n00:11:30,638 --> 00:11:56,703\n現在是對人他有財務有什麼什麼建立的等級嘛所以這個等級認證的等級跟他要去的職務如果他要占高缺他的等級沒有符合他事實上就占不了缺那也要讓全軍知道你的機密等級會影響到你未來的升遷獲得職務的調派所以要做好節身自愛這點我是支持只是這個要把它講清楚所以未來的升遷占缺到特定的職務都會受這個機密認證的影響\n\n34\n00:11:59,505 --> 00:12:04,520\n對我們這個辦法有公布然後我們也會讓全軍知道是好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n421\t12191\t好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長早 我在開始今天尋討之前\n14175\t33073\t比較難過要點出一件事情我們在立法院立委再怎麼大都要依照法律來行事立法院做任何決議再怎麼了不起都不能逾越憲法這跟部長無關所以你表情不要那麼嚴肅等一下會以為我在罵你\n35703\t57734\t事實上國安會該不該來立法院備詢不用看這一任也不用看蔡英文總統這一任看馬英九總統那一任他有憲法規定有運作慣例根據中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第四項國家安全會議組織法的第二條第一項\n59344\t85090\t裡面就明明規定國安會因為你以前是國安會秘書長國安會是國家安全有關大政方針之諮詢機關不是政策執行的處置機關所以除非涉及有關的法律案比方說組織條例或者預算案比方說年度預算送到立法院審議外不致立法院報告被尋以符合憲政體制\n86070\t110548\t我們當然可以找到很多偉大的理由要負責啊 要國家安全啊但是如果我們一個國家的鋼長不照法律來進行任何了不起的理由都可以逾越法律跟憲法規定我們就會通過一大堆違憲的決議案我們就會通過一大堆違憲的無效的擴權案立法院過去一年的亂象不是來自於這裡嗎人民的憂慮不是來自於這裡嗎所以\n113359\t133688\t我今天在一開始我必須提出這一點就是我都認為所有會議就可以開該來備詢就來備詢但是要根據法律跟憲政那回到這個部長我有個概念性問題要請教當然我們台美之間有deficit有貿易赤字的問題那我上次有私下就教於您其實我們現在對美國的軍購\n134949\t159479\t大概有三種類別一個叫做FMS甚至有的是叫FMS only就是只能採取軍售的管道那個是透過美軍幫我們買我們就是buyer這個坦白講對台灣來講比較輕鬆但是有時候巡駕報價會產生過去也發生愛國者飛彈等等一些問題另外一個是DCS商售這也是軍購但他走DCS\n160922\t187068\t另外一種叫做commercial transaction就是我們把它翻成軍民通它就是類似商售的方式那在一般的運作在軍民通的部分可以列入貿易額度可以把那個赤字扣掉在一般的狀況在商售的話有些狀況也可以把它扣掉所以我是建議啦我這個純屬建議這個軍售部分由您主責就是說在基於降低台美貿易赤字\n187984\t199723\t以及這個有利於技術移轉扶持本土的軍工產業的三個條件以及價格不變性能一樣的前提下\n200899\t228898\t我不知道部長認不認同其實我們對美的軍購如果能夠走商售或者走軍民通的話事實上會有這些好處但我剛才講那個前提一定要守住價格要低於它性能不能改變那它增加了售後服務增加了技術移轉那算雞蛋了我剛才講這一段是不是部長有什麼想法我們確實在軍售以外有\n231238\t255174\t商售的這個部分也是有一定程度的一個增加跟考量我剛才這個順序給部裡面做參考這個是建議就是說當我們尤其我知道軍種的或者是我們這個戰規師這邊有時候我們會比較省麻煩的就是走軍售省麻煩但是如果走DCS\n255970\t282904\t或者走這個commercial transaction他可能會多一些麻煩但是這過程當中如果對國家有利我們買方也就是軍種所有需求都達標的話有時候多費一點心神做對國家有利的事情這是本席對國防部的建議好 接下來一個是有關無人機的部分我們國防部委託中科院製造的無人機干擾槍310支\n286660\t301846\t聽說因為頻率的問題還有查資能力的問題這310支其實不太有用我不曉得使用者不管是陸軍或者各營區對這個干擾槍現在是怎麼處理這干擾槍好不好用\n307113\t328839\t委員好,我是作記室次長,向委員報告,這個干擾槍主要的對象是針對小型的一二類的無人機,它是定頻的還是變頻的?它有針對無人機遙控的頻率,有設定相應的頻段,那會來做...然後我拿了干擾槍,我怎麼知道無人機來了,那個查資系統,或者講雷達拉,那個感知系統怎麼來?\n330064\t354545\t因為小型的無人機在現況我們在用這種防空雷達目前是增貨能力比較沒有辦法那個有另外的雷達啦因為雷達就跟波長有關嘛你那個網子越密看得越近就近視眼那你要看得越遠長程預警雷達它就近的東西就看不太見這個我們理解我的意思是說我現在拿著一個干擾槍\n355706\t368782\t我是營區的守衛你們現在鋼老槍的作業方式他們是放在是放在營區的槍械庫裡面還是放在待命班的手上握在手上是然後用目獲的方式來攔截是\n369775\t393876\t所以這個對小型無人機,其實小型無人機在100米以上,目獲其實有相當困難這一個我知道你們有要建置這個感知系統,沒有感知系統單純靠這個攔截效能是有限的那我這邊要請教就是說目前部長我們國防部,其實每個兵都有專長都有執掌那現代戰場上無人機跟反無人機幾乎是非常重要的要素了\n394830\t404819\t就我去查起來我們現在在部隊裡面的編制並沒有這個不管是待命班什麼並沒有專長編制有關這個反無人機的部分\n406238\t429079\t包委員這個由我再來補充就現行的我們國軍建制的反制系統以中科院這一套UDS裡面所配置的無人機干擾槍但是未來同步我們再檢討包含外島的反制無人機系統它裡面就會有徵收然後干擾的相關的配備那其次在部隊使用的部分現在我們正在配合兵力結構調整\n431101\t457315\t這個其實比較適合回答的是軍總來回答我們每個兵機槍兵什麼兵防空兵什麼兵他會有一個編制跟執掌的我問的問題是我們現在部隊裡面有沒有無人機跟反無人機這個兵的專長編碼或者專長編制現在好像沒有無人機的您說他操作無人機的一個要有一個編制我們現在沒有這個編制他是用第五兵第五員監管這個東西\n459316\t469025\t現在如果講說他的那個符號上面動員的專長的編碼符號我們現在已經有列入無人機的但是我們在部隊的編制\n470777\t487961\t事實上沒有一個執掌專責的是負責這一塊啦他等於是第五員監管嘛這個應該要去問因為你如果講的是單純的一個無人機的干擾槍這樣子的話這個部分是每一個衛哨或代理班的人員都要來操作但現在假設\n490422\t508662\t但假設是屬於比較具有攻擊性的無人機或可以稱為一種火力的話海軍陸戰隊事實上已經成立了無人機我們現在在營區裡面的待命班現在並沒有專長編制負責這一塊他都是找一個\n509383\t521858\t得監管那怎麼做比較好我覺得可以思考一下因為這個威脅其實將來會越來越多啦那因為我還有兩個題目我借一分鐘另外一個事情我們現在三軍官校學生到國外就讀軍校的員額\n524279\t538907\t聽說因為預算因為編列一億一千多萬那三減了一千七百四十六萬再加上凍結數等等所以十二元出國都已經有十二個申請到國外就讀軍校了現在只剩下四個\n540431\t560576\t縮減了一半,這個事情是否為真?是,現在因為那個原訂護國外就讀的有12人,現在只能夠致應4人護外國就讀所以影響就保留到明年,影響大概有8個人這影響蠻大的,有沒有什麼補救的原因?補救的方法?\n562871\t585643\t我們就把它延到應該是延到明年因為明年原來這八個還是他們嗎?明年有明年的那個人員要出去啊我們在今年編列預算的時候我們會連同這個一起編列上去所以這八個人的權益是把它挪到明年?是是因為這個會坦白講我們能夠出國受訓都是我們優秀的軍官那因為這樣子12個剩下4個\n588024\t616755\t當然會有一些失落感那我是覺得如果我們在預算籌措上沒有問題的話能夠按照年度執行會比較好移到明年他是跟下一期的一起那跟下一期跟學第一期未必不可但是每個人都有一年一年的生涯規劃這樣就慢了一年所以我還是建議部長在能夠籌措的範圍內今年如果能夠12元還是要滿足12元因為今年主要是因為那個是他通善的部分是不得\n617515\t624953\t不得留用 不得留用因為不得留用 很麻煩就是那個不得留用讓這12個優秀軍人要出國受訓變剩4個這個坦白講是\n628513\t647744\t可惜因為軍人每一個年班每個年班有他的梯次慢了一年其實影響很大所以我還是懇求部長我們一起找個方法看這塊預算怎麼處理讓這八位可以一樣維持出國秀訓這是我們優秀的軍人我們還是要找個方法了你弄到明年一定有影響不會沒有影響\n648913\t672846\t因為他今年特別過去通商的項目沒有決議說不得了用我們今天國家總預算的處理方式大家都談了我就不變再多說了有些部分造成災難我最後只請教一件事情你們那個揭密人員的認證未來會不會因為你們現在建立在個人的賓資資料裡面所以未來要升遷到某個職務要去佔缺\n674028\t690218\t如果他在揭密認證的值等他的那個等級沒有符合他要去的位置是不是就不能升遷也不能調動會有沒有這個會不會影響到這一塊會因為他跟人資系統結合因為我們以前是對事情來做保密嘛\n690638\t716703\t現在是對人他有財務有什麼什麼建立的等級嘛所以這個等級認證的等級跟他要去的職務如果他要占高缺他的等級沒有符合他事實上就占不了缺那也要讓全軍知道你的機密等級會影響到你未來的升遷獲得職務的調派所以要做好節身自愛這點我是支持只是這個要把它講清楚所以未來的升遷占缺到特定的職務都會受這個機密認證的影響\n719505\t724520\t對 我們這個辦法有公布 然後我們也會讓全軍知道是 好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長早 我在開始今天尋討之前\n比較難過要點出一件事情我們在立法院立委再怎麼大都要依照法律來行事立法院做任何決議再怎麼了不起都不能逾越憲法這跟部長無關所以你表情不要那麼嚴肅等一下會以為我在罵你\n事實上國安會該不該來立法院備詢不用看這一任也不用看蔡英文總統這一任看馬英九總統那一任他有憲法規定有運作慣例根據中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第四項國家安全會議組織法的第二條第一項\n裡面就明明規定國安會因為你以前是國安會秘書長國安會是國家安全有關大政方針之諮詢機關不是政策執行的處置機關所以除非涉及有關的法律案比方說組織條例或者預算案比方說年度預算送到立法院審議外不致立法院報告被尋以符合憲政體制\n我們當然可以找到很多偉大的理由要負責啊 要國家安全啊但是如果我們一個國家的鋼長不照法律來進行任何了不起的理由都可以逾越法律跟憲法規定我們就會通過一大堆違憲的決議案我們就會通過一大堆違憲的無效的擴權案立法院過去一年的亂象不是來自於這裡嗎人民的憂慮不是來自於這裡嗎所以\n我今天在一開始我必須提出這一點就是我都認為所有會議就可以開該來備詢就來備詢但是要根據法律跟憲政那回到這個部長我有個概念性問題要請教當然我們台美之間有deficit有貿易赤字的問題那我上次有私下就教於您其實我們現在對美國的軍購\n大概有三種類別一個叫做FMS甚至有的是叫FMS only就是只能採取軍售的管道那個是透過美軍幫我們買我們就是buyer這個坦白講對台灣來講比較輕鬆但是有時候巡駕報價會產生過去也發生愛國者飛彈等等一些問題另外一個是DCS商售這也是軍購但他走DCS\n另外一種叫做commercial transaction就是我們把它翻成軍民通它就是類似商售的方式那在一般的運作在軍民通的部分可以列入貿易額度可以把那個赤字扣掉在一般的狀況在商售的話有些狀況也可以把它扣掉所以我是建議啦我這個純屬建議這個軍售部分由您主責就是說在基於降低台美貿易赤字\n以及這個有利於技術移轉扶持本土的軍工產業的三個條件以及價格不變性能一樣的前提下\n我不知道部長認不認同其實我們對美的軍購如果能夠走商售或者走軍民通的話事實上會有這些好處但我剛才講那個前提一定要守住價格要低於它性能不能改變那它增加了售後服務增加了技術移轉那算雞蛋了我剛才講這一段是不是部長有什麼想法我們確實在軍售以外有\n商售的這個部分也是有一定程度的一個增加跟考量我剛才這個順序給部裡面做參考這個是建議就是說當我們尤其我知道軍種的或者是我們這個戰規師這邊有時候我們會比較省麻煩的就是走軍售省麻煩但是如果走DCS\n或者走這個commercial transaction他可能會多一些麻煩但是這過程當中如果對國家有利我們買方也就是軍種所有需求都達標的話有時候多費一點心神做對國家有利的事情這是本席對國防部的建議好 接下來一個是有關無人機的部分我們國防部委託中科院製造的無人機干擾槍310支\n聽說因為頻率的問題還有查資能力的問題這310支其實不太有用我不曉得使用者不管是陸軍或者各營區對這個干擾槍現在是怎麼處理這干擾槍好不好用\n委員好,我是作記室次長,向委員報告,這個干擾槍主要的對象是針對小型的一二類的無人機,它是定頻的還是變頻的?它有針對無人機遙控的頻率,有設定相應的頻段,那會來做...然後我拿了干擾槍,我怎麼知道無人機來了,那個查資系統,或者講雷達拉,那個感知系統怎麼來?\n因為小型的無人機在現況我們在用這種防空雷達目前是增貨能力比較沒有辦法那個有另外的雷達啦因為雷達就跟波長有關嘛你那個網子越密看得越近就近視眼那你要看得越遠長程預警雷達它就近的東西就看不太見這個我們理解我的意思是說我現在拿著一個干擾槍\n我是營區的守衛你們現在鋼老槍的作業方式他們是放在是放在營區的槍械庫裡面還是放在待命班的手上握在手上是然後用目獲的方式來攔截是\n所以這個對小型無人機,其實小型無人機在100米以上,目獲其實有相當困難這一個我知道你們有要建置這個感知系統,沒有感知系統單純靠這個攔截效能是有限的那我這邊要請教就是說目前部長我們國防部,其實每個兵都有專長都有執掌那現代戰場上無人機跟反無人機幾乎是非常重要的要素了\n就我去查起來我們現在在部隊裡面的編制並沒有這個不管是待命班什麼並沒有專長編制有關這個反無人機的部分\n包委員這個由我再來補充就現行的我們國軍建制的反制系統以中科院這一套UDS裡面所配置的無人機干擾槍但是未來同步我們再檢討包含外島的反制無人機系統它裡面就會有徵收然後干擾的相關的配備那其次在部隊使用的部分現在我們正在配合兵力結構調整\n這個其實比較適合回答的是軍總來回答我們每個兵機槍兵什麼兵防空兵什麼兵他會有一個編制跟執掌的我問的問題是我們現在部隊裡面有沒有無人機跟反無人機這個兵的專長編碼或者專長編制現在好像沒有無人機的您說他操作無人機的一個要有一個編制我們現在沒有這個編制他是用第五兵第五員監管這個東西\n現在如果講說他的那個符號上面動員的專長的編碼符號我們現在已經有列入無人機的但是我們在部隊的編制\n事實上沒有一個執掌專責的是負責這一塊啦他等於是第五員監管嘛這個應該要去問因為你如果講的是單純的一個無人機的干擾槍這樣子的話這個部分是每一個衛哨或代理班的人員都要來操作但現在假設\n但假設是屬於比較具有攻擊性的無人機或可以稱為一種火力的話海軍陸戰隊事實上已經成立了無人機我們現在在營區裡面的待命班現在並沒有專長編制負責這一塊他都是找一個\n得監管那怎麼做比較好我覺得可以思考一下因為這個威脅其實將來會越來越多啦那因為我還有兩個題目我借一分鐘另外一個事情我們現在三軍官校學生到國外就讀軍校的員額\n聽說因為預算因為編列一億一千多萬那三減了一千七百四十六萬再加上凍結數等等所以十二元出國都已經有十二個申請到國外就讀軍校了現在只剩下四個\n縮減了一半,這個事情是否為真?是,現在因為那個原訂護國外就讀的有12人,現在只能夠致應4人護外國就讀所以影響就保留到明年,影響大概有8個人這影響蠻大的,有沒有什麼補救的原因?補救的方法?\n我們就把它延到應該是延到明年因為明年原來這八個還是他們嗎?明年有明年的那個人員要出去啊我們在今年編列預算的時候我們會連同這個一起編列上去所以這八個人的權益是把它挪到明年?是是因為這個會坦白講我們能夠出國受訓都是我們優秀的軍官那因為這樣子12個剩下4個\n當然會有一些失落感那我是覺得如果我們在預算籌措上沒有問題的話能夠按照年度執行會比較好移到明年他是跟下一期的一起那跟下一期跟學第一期未必不可但是每個人都有一年一年的生涯規劃這樣就慢了一年所以我還是建議部長在能夠籌措的範圍內今年如果能夠12元還是要滿足12元因為今年主要是因為那個是他通善的部分是不得\n不得留用 不得留用因為不得留用 很麻煩就是那個不得留用讓這12個優秀軍人要出國受訓變剩4個這個坦白講是\n可惜因為軍人每一個年班每個年班有他的梯次慢了一年其實影響很大所以我還是懇求部長我們一起找個方法看這塊預算怎麼處理讓這八位可以一樣維持出國秀訓這是我們優秀的軍人我們還是要找個方法了你弄到明年一定有影響不會沒有影響\n因為他今年特別過去通商的項目沒有決議說不得了用我們今天國家總預算的處理方式大家都談了我就不變再多說了有些部分造成災難我最後只請教一件事情你們那個揭密人員的認證未來會不會因為你們現在建立在個人的賓資資料裡面所以未來要升遷到某個職務要去佔缺\n如果他在揭密認證的值等他的那個等級沒有符合他要去的位置是不是就不能升遷也不能調動會有沒有這個會不會影響到這一塊會因為他跟人資系統結合因為我們以前是對事情來做保密嘛\n現在是對人他有財務有什麼什麼建立的等級嘛所以這個等級認證的等級跟他要去的職務如果他要占高缺他的等級沒有符合他事實上就占不了缺那也要讓全軍知道你的機密等級會影響到你未來的升遷獲得職務的調派所以要做好節身自愛這點我是支持只是這個要把它講清楚所以未來的升遷占缺到特定的職務都會受這個機密認證的影響\n對 我們這個辦法有公布 然後我們也會讓全軍知道是 好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.421 --> 00:12.191\n好謝謝主席麻煩部長部長早我在開始今天尋討之前\n\n00:14.175 --> 00:33.073\n比較難過要點出一件事情我們在立法院立委再怎麼大都要依照法律來行事立法院做任何決議再怎麼了不起都不能逾越憲法這跟部長無關所以你表情不要那麼嚴肅等一下會以為我在罵你\n\n00:35.703 --> 00:57.734\n事實上國安會該不該來立法院備詢不用看這一任也不用看蔡英文總統這一任看馬英九總統那一任他有憲法規定有運作慣例根據中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第四項國家安全會議組織法的第二條第一項\n\n00:59.344 --> 01:25.090\n裡面就明明規定國安會因為你以前是國安會秘書長國安會是國家安全有關大政方針之諮詢機關不是政策執行的處置機關所以除非涉及有關的法律案比方說組織條例或者預算案比方說年度預算送到立法院審議外不致立法院報告被尋以符合憲政體制\n\n01:26.070 --> 01:50.548\n我們當然可以找到很多偉大的理由要負責啊要國家安全啊但是如果我們一個國家的鋼長不照法律來進行任何了不起的理由都可以逾越法律跟憲法規定我們就會通過一大堆違憲的決議案我們就會通過一大堆違憲的無效的擴權案立法院過去一年的亂象不是來自於這裡嗎人民的憂慮不是來自於這裡嗎所以\n\n01:53.359 --> 02:13.688\n我今天在一開始我必須提出這一點就是我都認為所有會議就可以開該來備詢就來備詢但是要根據法律跟憲政那回到這個部長我有個概念性問題要請教當然我們台美之間有deficit有貿易赤字的問題那我上次有私下就教於您其實我們現在對美國的軍購\n\n02:14.949 --> 02:39.479\n大概有三種類別一個叫做FMS甚至有的是叫FMSonly就是只能採取軍售的管道那個是透過美軍幫我們買我們就是buyer這個坦白講對台灣來講比較輕鬆但是有時候巡駕報價會產生過去也發生愛國者飛彈等等一些問題另外一個是DCS商售這也是軍購但他走DCS\n\n02:40.922 --> 03:07.068\n另外一種叫做commercialtransaction就是我們把它翻成軍民通它就是類似商售的方式那在一般的運作在軍民通的部分可以列入貿易額度可以把那個赤字扣掉在一般的狀況在商售的話有些狀況也可以把它扣掉所以我是建議啦我這個純屬建議這個軍售部分由您主責就是說在基於降低台美貿易赤字\n\n03:07.984 --> 03:19.723\n以及這個有利於技術移轉扶持本土的軍工產業的三個條件以及價格不變性能一樣的前提下\n\n03:20.899 --> 03:48.898\n我不知道部長認不認同其實我們對美的軍購如果能夠走商售或者走軍民通的話事實上會有這些好處但我剛才講那個前提一定要守住價格要低於它性能不能改變那它增加了售後服務增加了技術移轉那算雞蛋了我剛才講這一段是不是部長有什麼想法我們確實在軍售以外有\n\n03:51.238 --> 04:15.174\n商售的這個部分也是有一定程度的一個增加跟考量我剛才這個順序給部裡面做參考這個是建議就是說當我們尤其我知道軍種的或者是我們這個戰規師這邊有時候我們會比較省麻煩的就是走軍售省麻煩但是如果走DCS\n\n04:15.970 --> 04:42.904\n或者走這個commercialtransaction他可能會多一些麻煩但是這過程當中如果對國家有利我們買方也就是軍種所有需求都達標的話有時候多費一點心神做對國家有利的事情這是本席對國防部的建議好接下來一個是有關無人機的部分我們國防部委託中科院製造的無人機干擾槍310支\n\n04:46.660 --> 05:01.846\n聽說因為頻率的問題還有查資能力的問題這310支其實不太有用我不曉得使用者不管是陸軍或者各營區對這個干擾槍現在是怎麼處理這干擾槍好不好用\n\n05:07.113 --> 05:28.839\n委員好,我是作記室次長,向委員報告,這個干擾槍主要的對象是針對小型的一二類的無人機,它是定頻的還是變頻的?它有針對無人機遙控的頻率,有設定相應的頻段,那會來做...然後我拿了干擾槍,我怎麼知道無人機來了,那個查資系統,或者講雷達拉,那個感知系統怎麼來?\n\n05:30.064 --> 05:54.545\n因為小型的無人機在現況我們在用這種防空雷達目前是增貨能力比較沒有辦法那個有另外的雷達啦因為雷達就跟波長有關嘛你那個網子越密看得越近就近視眼那你要看得越遠長程預警雷達它就近的東西就看不太見這個我們理解我的意思是說我現在拿著一個干擾槍\n\n05:55.706 --> 06:08.782\n我是營區的守衛你們現在鋼老槍的作業方式他們是放在是放在營區的槍械庫裡面還是放在待命班的手上握在手上是然後用目獲的方式來攔截是\n\n06:09.775 --> 06:33.876\n所以這個對小型無人機,其實小型無人機在100米以上,目獲其實有相當困難這一個我知道你們有要建置這個感知系統,沒有感知系統單純靠這個攔截效能是有限的那我這邊要請教就是說目前部長我們國防部,其實每個兵都有專長都有執掌那現代戰場上無人機跟反無人機幾乎是非常重要的要素了\n\n06:34.830 --> 06:44.819\n就我去查起來我們現在在部隊裡面的編制並沒有這個不管是待命班什麼並沒有專長編制有關這個反無人機的部分\n\n06:46.238 --> 07:09.079\n包委員這個由我再來補充就現行的我們國軍建制的反制系統以中科院這一套UDS裡面所配置的無人機干擾槍但是未來同步我們再檢討包含外島的反制無人機系統它裡面就會有徵收然後干擾的相關的配備那其次在部隊使用的部分現在我們正在配合兵力結構調整\n\n07:11.101 --> 07:37.315\n這個其實比較適合回答的是軍總來回答我們每個兵機槍兵什麼兵防空兵什麼兵他會有一個編制跟執掌的我問的問題是我們現在部隊裡面有沒有無人機跟反無人機這個兵的專長編碼或者專長編制現在好像沒有無人機的您說他操作無人機的一個要有一個編制我們現在沒有這個編制他是用第五兵第五員監管這個東西\n\n07:39.316 --> 07:49.025\n現在如果講說他的那個符號上面動員的專長的編碼符號我們現在已經有列入無人機的但是我們在部隊的編制\n\n07:50.777 --> 08:07.961\n事實上沒有一個執掌專責的是負責這一塊啦他等於是第五員監管嘛這個應該要去問因為你如果講的是單純的一個無人機的干擾槍這樣子的話這個部分是每一個衛哨或代理班的人員都要來操作但現在假設\n\n08:10.422 --> 08:28.662\n但假設是屬於比較具有攻擊性的無人機或可以稱為一種火力的話海軍陸戰隊事實上已經成立了無人機我們現在在營區裡面的待命班現在並沒有專長編制負責這一塊他都是找一個\n\n08:29.383 --> 08:41.858\n得監管那怎麼做比較好我覺得可以思考一下因為這個威脅其實將來會越來越多啦那因為我還有兩個題目我借一分鐘另外一個事情我們現在三軍官校學生到國外就讀軍校的員額\n\n08:44.279 --> 08:58.907\n聽說因為預算因為編列一億一千多萬那三減了一千七百四十六萬再加上凍結數等等所以十二元出國都已經有十二個申請到國外就讀軍校了現在只剩下四個\n\n09:00.431 --> 09:20.576\n縮減了一半,這個事情是否為真?是,現在因為那個原訂護國外就讀的有12人,現在只能夠致應4人護外國就讀所以影響就保留到明年,影響大概有8個人這影響蠻大的,有沒有什麼補救的原因?補救的方法?\n\n09:22.871 --> 09:45.643\n我們就把它延到應該是延到明年因為明年原來這八個還是他們嗎?明年有明年的那個人員要出去啊我們在今年編列預算的時候我們會連同這個一起編列上去所以這八個人的權益是把它挪到明年?是是因為這個會坦白講我們能夠出國受訓都是我們優秀的軍官那因為這樣子12個剩下4個\n\n09:48.024 --> 10:16.755\n當然會有一些失落感那我是覺得如果我們在預算籌措上沒有問題的話能夠按照年度執行會比較好移到明年他是跟下一期的一起那跟下一期跟學第一期未必不可但是每個人都有一年一年的生涯規劃這樣就慢了一年所以我還是建議部長在能夠籌措的範圍內今年如果能夠12元還是要滿足12元因為今年主要是因為那個是他通善的部分是不得\n\n10:17.515 --> 10:24.953\n不得留用不得留用因為不得留用很麻煩就是那個不得留用讓這12個優秀軍人要出國受訓變剩4個這個坦白講是\n\n10:28.513 --> 10:47.744\n可惜因為軍人每一個年班每個年班有他的梯次慢了一年其實影響很大所以我還是懇求部長我們一起找個方法看這塊預算怎麼處理讓這八位可以一樣維持出國秀訓這是我們優秀的軍人我們還是要找個方法了你弄到明年一定有影響不會沒有影響\n\n10:48.913 --> 11:12.846\n因為他今年特別過去通商的項目沒有決議說不得了用我們今天國家總預算的處理方式大家都談了我就不變再多說了有些部分造成災難我最後只請教一件事情你們那個揭密人員的認證未來會不會因為你們現在建立在個人的賓資資料裡面所以未來要升遷到某個職務要去佔缺\n\n11:14.028 --> 11:30.218\n如果他在揭密認證的值等他的那個等級沒有符合他要去的位置是不是就不能升遷也不能調動會有沒有這個會不會影響到這一塊會因為他跟人資系統結合因為我們以前是對事情來做保密嘛\n\n11:30.638 --> 11:56.703\n現在是對人他有財務有什麼什麼建立的等級嘛所以這個等級認證的等級跟他要去的職務如果他要占高缺他的等級沒有符合他事實上就占不了缺那也要讓全軍知道你的機密等級會影響到你未來的升遷獲得職務的調派所以要做好節身自愛這點我是支持只是這個要把它講清楚所以未來的升遷占缺到特定的職務都會受這個機密認證的影響\n\n11:59.505 --> 12:04.520\n對我們這個辦法有公布然後我們也會讓全軍知道是好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.421,"end":12.191,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長早 我在開始今天尋討之前"},{"start":14.175,"end":33.073,"text":"比較難過要點出一件事情我們在立法院立委再怎麼大都要依照法律來行事立法院做任何決議再怎麼了不起都不能逾越憲法這跟部長無關所以你表情不要那麼嚴肅等一下會以為我在罵你"},{"start":35.703,"end":57.734,"text":"事實上國安會該不該來立法院備詢不用看這一任也不用看蔡英文總統這一任看馬英九總統那一任他有憲法規定有運作慣例根據中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第四項國家安全會議組織法的第二條第一項"},{"start":59.344,"end":85.09,"text":"裡面就明明規定國安會因為你以前是國安會秘書長國安會是國家安全有關大政方針之諮詢機關不是政策執行的處置機關所以除非涉及有關的法律案比方說組織條例或者預算案比方說年度預算送到立法院審議外不致立法院報告被尋以符合憲政體制"},{"start":86.07,"end":110.548,"text":"我們當然可以找到很多偉大的理由要負責啊 要國家安全啊但是如果我們一個國家的鋼長不照法律來進行任何了不起的理由都可以逾越法律跟憲法規定我們就會通過一大堆違憲的決議案我們就會通過一大堆違憲的無效的擴權案立法院過去一年的亂象不是來自於這裡嗎人民的憂慮不是來自於這裡嗎所以"},{"start":113.359,"end":133.688,"text":"我今天在一開始我必須提出這一點就是我都認為所有會議就可以開該來備詢就來備詢但是要根據法律跟憲政那回到這個部長我有個概念性問題要請教當然我們台美之間有deficit有貿易赤字的問題那我上次有私下就教於您其實我們現在對美國的軍購"},{"start":134.949,"end":159.479,"text":"大概有三種類別一個叫做FMS甚至有的是叫FMS only就是只能採取軍售的管道那個是透過美軍幫我們買我們就是buyer這個坦白講對台灣來講比較輕鬆但是有時候巡駕報價會產生過去也發生愛國者飛彈等等一些問題另外一個是DCS商售這也是軍購但他走DCS"},{"start":160.922,"end":187.068,"text":"另外一種叫做commercial transaction就是我們把它翻成軍民通它就是類似商售的方式那在一般的運作在軍民通的部分可以列入貿易額度可以把那個赤字扣掉在一般的狀況在商售的話有些狀況也可以把它扣掉所以我是建議啦我這個純屬建議這個軍售部分由您主責就是說在基於降低台美貿易赤字"},{"start":187.984,"end":199.723,"text":"以及這個有利於技術移轉扶持本土的軍工產業的三個條件以及價格不變性能一樣的前提下"},{"start":200.899,"end":228.898,"text":"我不知道部長認不認同其實我們對美的軍購如果能夠走商售或者走軍民通的話事實上會有這些好處但我剛才講那個前提一定要守住價格要低於它性能不能改變那它增加了售後服務增加了技術移轉那算雞蛋了我剛才講這一段是不是部長有什麼想法我們確實在軍售以外有"},{"start":231.238,"end":255.174,"text":"商售的這個部分也是有一定程度的一個增加跟考量我剛才這個順序給部裡面做參考這個是建議就是說當我們尤其我知道軍種的或者是我們這個戰規師這邊有時候我們會比較省麻煩的就是走軍售省麻煩但是如果走DCS"},{"start":255.97,"end":282.904,"text":"或者走這個commercial transaction他可能會多一些麻煩但是這過程當中如果對國家有利我們買方也就是軍種所有需求都達標的話有時候多費一點心神做對國家有利的事情這是本席對國防部的建議好 接下來一個是有關無人機的部分我們國防部委託中科院製造的無人機干擾槍310支"},{"start":286.66,"end":301.846,"text":"聽說因為頻率的問題還有查資能力的問題這310支其實不太有用我不曉得使用者不管是陸軍或者各營區對這個干擾槍現在是怎麼處理這干擾槍好不好用"},{"start":307.113,"end":328.839,"text":"委員好,我是作記室次長,向委員報告,這個干擾槍主要的對象是針對小型的一二類的無人機,它是定頻的還是變頻的?它有針對無人機遙控的頻率,有設定相應的頻段,那會來做...然後我拿了干擾槍,我怎麼知道無人機來了,那個查資系統,或者講雷達拉,那個感知系統怎麼來?"},{"start":330.064,"end":354.545,"text":"因為小型的無人機在現況我們在用這種防空雷達目前是增貨能力比較沒有辦法那個有另外的雷達啦因為雷達就跟波長有關嘛你那個網子越密看得越近就近視眼那你要看得越遠長程預警雷達它就近的東西就看不太見這個我們理解我的意思是說我現在拿著一個干擾槍"},{"start":355.706,"end":368.782,"text":"我是營區的守衛你們現在鋼老槍的作業方式他們是放在是放在營區的槍械庫裡面還是放在待命班的手上握在手上是然後用目獲的方式來攔截是"},{"start":369.775,"end":393.876,"text":"所以這個對小型無人機,其實小型無人機在100米以上,目獲其實有相當困難這一個我知道你們有要建置這個感知系統,沒有感知系統單純靠這個攔截效能是有限的那我這邊要請教就是說目前部長我們國防部,其實每個兵都有專長都有執掌那現代戰場上無人機跟反無人機幾乎是非常重要的要素了"},{"start":394.83,"end":404.819,"text":"就我去查起來我們現在在部隊裡面的編制並沒有這個不管是待命班什麼並沒有專長編制有關這個反無人機的部分"},{"start":406.238,"end":429.079,"text":"包委員這個由我再來補充就現行的我們國軍建制的反制系統以中科院這一套UDS裡面所配置的無人機干擾槍但是未來同步我們再檢討包含外島的反制無人機系統它裡面就會有徵收然後干擾的相關的配備那其次在部隊使用的部分現在我們正在配合兵力結構調整"},{"start":431.101,"end":457.315,"text":"這個其實比較適合回答的是軍總來回答我們每個兵機槍兵什麼兵防空兵什麼兵他會有一個編制跟執掌的我問的問題是我們現在部隊裡面有沒有無人機跟反無人機這個兵的專長編碼或者專長編制現在好像沒有無人機的您說他操作無人機的一個要有一個編制我們現在沒有這個編制他是用第五兵第五員監管這個東西"},{"start":459.316,"end":469.025,"text":"現在如果講說他的那個符號上面動員的專長的編碼符號我們現在已經有列入無人機的但是我們在部隊的編制"},{"start":470.777,"end":487.961,"text":"事實上沒有一個執掌專責的是負責這一塊啦他等於是第五員監管嘛這個應該要去問因為你如果講的是單純的一個無人機的干擾槍這樣子的話這個部分是每一個衛哨或代理班的人員都要來操作但現在假設"},{"start":490.422,"end":508.662,"text":"但假設是屬於比較具有攻擊性的無人機或可以稱為一種火力的話海軍陸戰隊事實上已經成立了無人機我們現在在營區裡面的待命班現在並沒有專長編制負責這一塊他都是找一個"},{"start":509.383,"end":521.858,"text":"得監管那怎麼做比較好我覺得可以思考一下因為這個威脅其實將來會越來越多啦那因為我還有兩個題目我借一分鐘另外一個事情我們現在三軍官校學生到國外就讀軍校的員額"},{"start":524.279,"end":538.907,"text":"聽說因為預算因為編列一億一千多萬那三減了一千七百四十六萬再加上凍結數等等所以十二元出國都已經有十二個申請到國外就讀軍校了現在只剩下四個"},{"start":540.431,"end":560.576,"text":"縮減了一半,這個事情是否為真?是,現在因為那個原訂護國外就讀的有12人,現在只能夠致應4人護外國就讀所以影響就保留到明年,影響大概有8個人這影響蠻大的,有沒有什麼補救的原因?補救的方法?"},{"start":562.871,"end":585.643,"text":"我們就把它延到應該是延到明年因為明年原來這八個還是他們嗎?明年有明年的那個人員要出去啊我們在今年編列預算的時候我們會連同這個一起編列上去所以這八個人的權益是把它挪到明年?是是因為這個會坦白講我們能夠出國受訓都是我們優秀的軍官那因為這樣子12個剩下4個"},{"start":588.024,"end":616.755,"text":"當然會有一些失落感那我是覺得如果我們在預算籌措上沒有問題的話能夠按照年度執行會比較好移到明年他是跟下一期的一起那跟下一期跟學第一期未必不可但是每個人都有一年一年的生涯規劃這樣就慢了一年所以我還是建議部長在能夠籌措的範圍內今年如果能夠12元還是要滿足12元因為今年主要是因為那個是他通善的部分是不得"},{"start":617.515,"end":624.953,"text":"不得留用 不得留用因為不得留用 很麻煩就是那個不得留用讓這12個優秀軍人要出國受訓變剩4個這個坦白講是"},{"start":628.513,"end":647.744,"text":"可惜因為軍人每一個年班每個年班有他的梯次慢了一年其實影響很大所以我還是懇求部長我們一起找個方法看這塊預算怎麼處理讓這八位可以一樣維持出國秀訓這是我們優秀的軍人我們還是要找個方法了你弄到明年一定有影響不會沒有影響"},{"start":648.913,"end":672.846,"text":"因為他今年特別過去通商的項目沒有決議說不得了用我們今天國家總預算的處理方式大家都談了我就不變再多說了有些部分造成災難我最後只請教一件事情你們那個揭密人員的認證未來會不會因為你們現在建立在個人的賓資資料裡面所以未來要升遷到某個職務要去佔缺"},{"start":674.028,"end":690.218,"text":"如果他在揭密認證的值等他的那個等級沒有符合他要去的位置是不是就不能升遷也不能調動會有沒有這個會不會影響到這一塊會因為他跟人資系統結合因為我們以前是對事情來做保密嘛"},{"start":690.638,"end":716.703,"text":"現在是對人他有財務有什麼什麼建立的等級嘛所以這個等級認證的等級跟他要去的職務如果他要占高缺他的等級沒有符合他事實上就占不了缺那也要讓全軍知道你的機密等級會影響到你未來的升遷獲得職務的調派所以要做好節身自愛這點我是支持只是這個要把它講清楚所以未來的升遷占缺到特定的職務都會受這個機密認證的影響"},{"start":719.505,"end":724.52,"text":"對 我們這個辦法有公布 然後我們也會讓全軍知道是 好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":221,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時14分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。在開始今天的詢答之前，我比較難過地要點出一件事情，我們在立法院，立委再怎麼大，都要依照法律來行事；立法院做的任何決議再怎麼了不起，都不能逾越憲法。這個跟部長無關，你的表情不要那麼嚴肅，人家會以為我在罵你。","事實上國安會該不該來立法院備詢，不用看這一任，也不用看蔡英文總統這一任，看馬英九總統那一任，它有憲法規定、有運作慣例。根據中華民國憲法增修條文第二條第四項、國家安全會議組織法第二條第一項裡面就明文規定，你以前是國安會秘書長，國安會是國家安全有關大政方針之諮詢機關，不是政策執行的處置機關，所以除非涉及有關的法律案（比方組織條例）或者預算案（比方年度預算）送到立法院審議外，不至立法院報告備詢，以符合憲政體制。","我們當然可以找到很多偉大的理由，諸如要負責、要國家安全，但是如果一個國家的綱常不照法律來進行、任何了不起的理由都可以逾越法律及憲法規定，我們就會通過一大堆違憲的決議案、我們就會通過一大堆違憲的無效擴權案，立法院過去一年的亂象不就來自於這裡嗎？人民的憂慮不是來自於這裡嗎？我今天在一開始必須提出這一點，我認為所有的會議都可以開，該來備詢就來備詢，但是要根據法律及憲政。","部長，我有一個概念性的問題要請教，臺美之間有deficit、有貿易赤字的問題，我上次有私下就教於你。其實我們現在對美國的軍購大概有3種類別，一個叫做FMS，甚至於有的叫FMS only，就是只能採取軍售的管道，這個是透過美軍幫我們買，我們就是buyer，坦白講，這個對臺灣來講比較輕鬆，但是有時候詢價、報價會產生譬如過去也發生過的愛國者飛彈等等問題；另外一個是DCS、商售，這也是軍購，但是走DCS；另外一種叫作commercial transaction，我們翻譯為軍民通，就是類似商售的方式。在一般的運作上，軍民通的部分可以列入貿易額度，把赤字扣掉，這是一般的狀況；在商售的話，有些狀況也可以扣掉。","所以我建議，純屬建議，軍售的部分由您主責，基於降低臺美貿易赤字、有利於技術移轉、扶持本土軍工產業等3個條件，在價格不變、性能一樣的前提下，我不知道部長認不認同，我們對美的軍購如果能夠走商售或者走軍民通的話，事實上會有這些好處，但是我剛才講的前提一定要守住，就是價格要低於它、性能不能改變，它增加的售後服務、增加的技術移轉就算是多賺的。針對我剛才這一段，部長有什麼想法？"],["顧部長立雄：我們確實在軍售以外，商售的部分也是有一定程度的增加及考量。"],["王委員定宇：是，我剛才這個順序給部裡面做參考，這個是建議，尤其我知道軍種或者是戰規司這邊，有時候會走軍售省麻煩，但是如果走DCS或者走commercial transaction可能會多一些麻煩，但是這個過程當中如果對國家有利，我們買方，也就是軍種的所有需求都達標的話，有時候可以多費一點心神做對國家有利的事情，這是本席對國防部的建議。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：接下來是有關無人機的部分，國防部委託中科院製造無人機干擾槍310支，聽說因為頻率還有查知能力、效能的問題，這310支其實不太有用，我不曉得使用者的感受，不管是陸軍或者各營區，現在對這個干擾槍是怎麼處理？干擾槍好不好用？"],["連次長志威：委員好。我是作計室次長，向委員報告，干擾槍主要是針對小型的一、二類無人機……"],["王委員定宇：它是定頻的還是變頻的？"],["連次長志威：它有針對無人機遙控頻率設定相應的頻段，會來做……"],["王委員定宇：我拿了干擾槍，我怎麼知道無人機來了？那個查知系統或者雷達什麼的，那個感知系統怎麼來？目獲？"],["連次長志威：報告委員，因為小型無人機……現況我們用這種防空雷達，目前偵獲能力比較沒有辦法……"],["王委員定宇：沒有，那個有另外的雷達，因為雷達就跟波長有關嘛！"],["連次長志威：對。"],["王委員定宇：你們的網子越密，看得越近就近視眼……"],["連次長志威：是。"],["王委員定宇：你要看得越遠，長程預警雷達，近的東西就看不太見，這個我能理解。我的意思是，我現在拿著一支干擾槍，我是營區的守衛，你們現在干擾槍的作業方式是放在槍械庫裡面……"],["連次長志威：營區的待命班。"],["王委員定宇：還是放在待命班的手上？"],["連次長志威：在待命班。"],["王委員定宇：握在手上？"],["連次長志威：是。"],["王委員定宇：然後用目獲的方式來攔截？"],["連次長志威：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個對小型無人機而言，其實小型無人機在一百米以上目獲有相當的困難，我知道你們有要建置感知系統，沒有感知系統，單純靠這樣攔截的效能是有限的。我這邊要請教部長的是，其實目前國防部每個兵都有專長、都有職掌，現代戰場上無人機跟反無人機幾乎是非常重要的要素了，就我查起來，現在在部隊裡面的編制，不管是待命班還是什麼，有關反無人機的部分並沒有專長編制。"],["連次長志威：報告委員，這個由我來補充……"],["王委員定宇：沒關係。"],["連次長志威：就現行我們國軍建置的……"],["王委員定宇：也是中科院嘛？"],["連次長志威：反制系統以中科院這一套UDS所配置的無人機干擾槍，但是未來我們同步檢討外島的反制無人機系統，它裡面就會有偵蒐、干擾的相關配備。其次在部隊使用的部分，現在我們正在配合兵力結構調整，正在建置部內的……"],["王委員定宇：這個其實比較適合回答的是以軍種來回答，我們每個兵，像是機槍兵、防空兵等等，他們會有一個編制跟職掌。我問的問題是，現在部隊裡面有沒有無人機跟反無人機這個兵的專長編碼或者專長編制？現在好像沒有喔？"],["顧部長立雄：您說操作無人機的一個……"],["王委員定宇：就像現在有一個待命班，要有一個編制嘛！我們現在沒有這個編制？"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：它是用第五兵第五員監管這個東西……"],["顧部長立雄：現在如果講它的符號，上面動員的專長編碼符號，我們現在已經有列入無人機這個部分。"],["王委員定宇：但是在部隊的編制，事實上沒有一個職掌專責負責這一塊，等於是我剛才講的，由第五員監管……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個應該要去區分，因為如果你講的是一個單純的無人機干擾槍，這樣子的話，這部分是每一個衛哨或待命班人員都要來操作……"],["王委員定宇：但一般的……"],["顧部長立雄：但假設是比較具有攻擊性的無人機或可以成為一種火力的話，海軍陸戰隊事實上已經成立了無人機……"],["王委員定宇：部長，我是說現在在營區裡面的待命班並沒有專長編制負責這一塊，都是找一個來監管，至於怎麼做會比較好，我覺得可以思考一下，因為將來這個威脅會越來越多。","我還有兩個題目，借我1分鐘。另外一個事情，關於現在三軍官校學生到國外就讀軍校的員額，聽說因為預算編列一億一千多萬，刪減了1,746萬，再加上凍結數等等，所以有12員要出國，已經有12個人申請到國外就讀軍校，現在只剩下4個，縮減了一半，這個事情是否為真？"],["顧部長立雄：是，因為原定赴國外就讀的有12員，現在只能夠支應4員赴外國就讀，所以影響……"],["王委員定宇：減少三分之二。"],["顧部長立雄：就保留到明年，大概影響了8個人。"],["王委員定宇：這影響蠻大的，有沒有什麼補救的方法？"],["顧部長立雄：我們應該就把他們延到明年。"],["王委員定宇：明年還是原來這8個嗎？還是他們嗎？明年有明年的人員要出去啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我們在今年編列預算的時候會連同這個一起編列上去。"],["王委員定宇：所以把這8個人的權益挪到明年？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：坦白講，能夠出國受訓都是優秀的軍官，因為這樣子讓12個剩下4個，當然會有一些失落感，我是覺得，如果我們在預算籌措上沒有問題的話，能夠按照年度執行會比較好，移到明年是跟下一期的一起，跟下一期學弟一起未必不可，但是每個人都有一年一年的生涯規劃，這樣就慢了一年，所以我還是建議部長在能夠籌措的範圍內，今年如果能夠12員還是要滿足12員。"],["顧部長立雄：今年主要是因為通刪的部分不得流用……"],["王委員定宇：因為不得流用……"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：很麻煩，因為不得流用而讓這12個優秀軍人要出國受訓變成剩下4個。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：坦白講是可惜了，因為軍人每一個年班、每個年班有它的梯次，慢了一年其實影響很大，所以我還是懇求部長，我們一起找個方法，看這塊預算怎麼處理，讓這8位一樣可以維持出國受訓，這是我們優秀的軍人，我們還是要找個方法，好不好？如果留到明年一定會有影響，不會沒有影響。"],["顧部長立雄：因為今年比較特別，過去通刪的項目沒有決議說不得流用……"],["王委員定宇：今年我們國家總預算的處理方式大家都談了，我就不便再多說了，有些部分造成災難。","我最後只請教一件事情，關於你們接密人員的認證，因為你們現在建立在個人的兵資資料裡面，所以未來要升遷到某個職務、要去占缺，如果他在接密認證的職等，他的等級沒有符合他要去的位置是不是就不能升遷也不能調動？未來會不會影響到這一塊？"],["顧部長立雄：會，因為它跟人資系統結合。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為以前是對事情來做保密嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：現在是對人，他有財務、有什麼……所建立的等級嘛，所以這個等級認證的等級跟他要去的職務，如果他要占高缺，而他的等級沒有符合，事實上他就占不到缺，這也要讓全軍知道他們的接密等級會影響到未來的升遷或者職務調派，所以要做好潔身自愛，這點我是支持，只是要把它講清楚，未來的升遷占缺到特定職務都會受接密認證的影響。"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們有公布這個辦法，我們也會讓全軍知道。"],["王委員定宇：是，好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員上臺質詢。","接下來由沈伯洋召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}}