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{\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 67.41, \"end\": 67.67, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 67.67, \"end\": 67.791, \"score\": 0.643}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 67.791, \"end\": 67.911, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 67.911, \"end\": 67.931, \"score\": 0.628}]}, {\"start\": 68.731, \"end\": 88.146, \"text\": \"對這一個是相對比較熟悉那我想知道的事情就是說因為這一個是針對國家安全重大利益的公務人員它其實那個付表非常非常的多那現在是不是國安局除了這個辦法之外另外對於內部的人員然後涉及一些譬如說機敏資訊又有另外一套查核\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 68.731, \"end\": 68.891, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 68.891, \"end\": 69.012, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 69.012, \"end\": 69.312, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 69.312, \"end\": 69.532, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"熟\", \"start\": 69.532, \"end\": 69.812, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"悉\", \"start\": 69.812, \"end\": 70.373, \"score\": 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690.596, \"end\": 690.716, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 690.716, \"end\": 690.836, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 690.836, \"end\": 690.856, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 690.856, \"end\": 691.037, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 691.037, \"end\": 691.217, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 691.217, \"end\": 691.577, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 691.577, \"end\": 691.678, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 691.678, \"end\": 691.698, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:03,845\n主席那有請這個有請國安局副局長謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:14,959 --> 00:00:41,848\n喂你好你好那這個呢其實呢我也不是很確定今天到底要找誰比較好因為今天最主要是在講這一個中程查核的問題那因為目前來講就是說台灣的這一個在做中程查核最主要依據的法規是這一個涉及國家重大利益什麼等等的XX辦法那因為這一個辦法它的主管機關是行政院人事總署那行政院人事總署先沒有來\n\n3\n00:00:43,989 --> 00:01:07,931\n執行單位是調查局調查局在隔壁所以就變成說其實最主要是要問這兩個單位但是我想問的是這樣子就是說因為關於這一個查核辦法的內容到底應該怎麼訂定等等之類的我有把它先暫時放在這邊涉及國家安全或重大利益或公務人員特殊查核辦法調查局也有針對這一個我想說你可能\n\n4\n00:01:08,731 --> 00:01:28,146\n對這一個是相對比較熟悉那我想知道的事情就是說因為這一個是針對國家安全重大利益的公務人員它其實那個付表非常非常的多那現在是不是國安局除了這個辦法之外另外對於內部的人員然後涉及一些譬如說機敏資訊又有另外一套查核\n\n5\n00:01:28,906 --> 00:01:55,242\n是嘛對不對因為我了解的話國安局應該是這樣國防部應該也是這樣那這一個外交部的話反而應該比較多是就是先針對原本工人利用法裡面的這個查核辦法所以呢那我就會認為說因為如果國防部跟國安局原本就已經有自己的更嚴格的這個查核措施這個我比較沒有什麼意見我比較有意見的反而是原本的這個比較基礎的這個查核辦法我認為裡面有不足的地方\n\n6\n00:01:56,002 --> 00:02:24,043\n但這個不足的地方要問人事總署跟調查局不是問你們所以有點可惜那這邊我是這個是針對剛剛那一個辦法因為這個辦法的當時是比較著重在外國或中國的聯繫等等洩密記錄它比較不針對財務狀況心理健康親屬背景等等之類的但是如果是依照國防部還有依照國安局應該就有這個財務狀況跟心理健康的部分這個我理解應該沒有錯對不對\n\n7\n00:02:25,704 --> 00:02:49,209\n所以呢那我現在在想的事情就是說呢原本的辦法也比較沒有這一個定期查核的標準但你們有我知道國防部有啦國安局有嘛國防部應該是三年一次但國安局呢也有也有嘛所以呢這個就是說呢我現在是認為說國防部跟國安局比較嚴格的標準反而應該在一般的辦法就應該要訂定然後呢你們可能還要再往上更嚴格這是我的一個建議啦\n\n8\n00:02:50,202 --> 00:03:12,630\n但是我就說今天這個應該屬於這個的人不在但不過我想問的是倒數第二個這一個就是申訴或者行政救濟的機制為什麼我這樣講呢我先把它拉到後面就是說在美國這一邊它是有這個資訊安全監督辦公室他們在主責那他們會有一個申訴委員會那這個申訴委員會本身指的是比如說加密等級\n\n9\n00:03:13,590 --> 00:03:36,051\n那今天在加密等級的這個申訴委員會呢它是由國防部、國務院、中情局又比較像我們的國安局、國家檔案館去審查不符加密決定的申訴那我想問的就是因為剛剛前面講的是預防就是clearancecheck這個部分那現在如果是針對機密核定的這一個部分我們有沒有什麼申訴的管道\n\n10\n00:03:37,593 --> 00:04:06,236\n呃管局的部分是有在我們的查核辦法裡面是有這個申訴的一個管道我們申訴完對我們單位沒有通過的對我們單位做一個申請那這個是人的部分嘛對不對就是說你在人做這個忠誠考核的時候如果他不服或者他有一個申訴的管道那如果是對事呢就假設今天你們在核定這個機密的過程當中結果有人對於這個機密的核定的方式他如果不服的話呢這個部分有沒有\n\n11\n00:04:08,626 --> 00:04:27,563\n這個國安局是沒有這比較沒有嘛就我所知應該是沒有所以那這個部分我現在會比較想要理解的事情是這樣但其實說真的這個其實也不是國安局的業務啦就是說因為目前來講我們剛剛講的很多都是這個人他當然都沒有犯罪他也還沒有泄密我們單純要先針對他的背景來做考核看他有沒有問題嘛\n\n12\n00:04:28,724 --> 00:04:55,193\n金融的記錄啊什麼等等之類的但另外一個是如果說我們今天在先不要管人只管事的話就是針對機密等級的劃分那現在呢就有一個疑慮齁這個我知道有一些人也蠻愛問的就是因為我們台灣現在針對公務機密假設我今天認為有個機密立法委員要質詢我會開機密會議嗎其實我們是接觸的到的齁那但是就是說對於什麼事情是不是跟國家機密是跟公務機密有關我們現在是有一個叫文書處理規則\n\n13\n00:04:56,593 --> 00:05:26,242\n那這個我說處理規則到底有沒有可能有點被濫用的這個狀況因為現在我發現一個狀況就是有時候在質詢的時候官員可能說這個是機密但它機密本身其實有時候不是是因為它的內容會有一些重大的影響不是而是因為裡面有個資那有時候裡面有個資它也列為機密但這個機密其實它對國家的安全有時候不一定有影響有時候有影響所以在美國的時候它會去分類成下面這兩個一個叫限越機密一個叫保護機密那限越就比較多是\n\n14\n00:05:26,882 --> 00:05:51,060\n講的這個後面這一種什麼它是可能有嚴重的損害啦或者這個是seriousdamage還是單純的damage它會有這個分類但保護機密就比較偏個資它的意思就是說因為它有個資的保護所以它把它當作機密但跟前面的限約機密把它做分開那我們現在文書處理規則對於這個部分其實是沒有分類那沒有分類的狀況之下就會變成機密有點有點多啦\n\n15\n00:05:51,420 --> 00:06:05,445\n把機密點多的時候就會造成很多委員在質詢的時候就一直問說為什麼這個是機密上次我在當趙委的時候黃國昌問為什麼這個是機密問了十分鐘所以這個部分我覺得好像我們也是可以有一個檢討的空間然後我就去拉了一些數據像美國\n\n16\n00:06:07,205 --> 00:06:31,273\n2001年他們每年政府核定的機密是839萬筆2009年到5000多萬筆這個數真的就有點多這個如果黃國昌看到他應該會崩潰所以他沒有辦法在美國做質詢因為美國本來就沒有質詢但是簡單來講就是說我們今天對機密核定的方式就算按照我剛剛講的美國已經算是把它分類的跟我們比較不一樣也比較嚴格但它的機密還是會有腐爛的問題\n\n17\n00:06:32,233 --> 00:06:56,969\n那這個腐爛的問題有時候當然其實簡單來講如果立法委要做監督那就直接開機密會議就得了但有時候它其實只是一個受保護的跟各自有關的機密那這個部分要如果把它拆分的話那就變成說我們在不管是在質詢或者在討論事情的時候可能會更為方便我這邊是小小的建議而已好像有建議那拉回來就是剛剛講的這一個查核的這一個時機的問題\n\n18\n00:06:59,107 --> 00:07:18,877\n就是說我們今天剛剛講的查核回到對人的部分如果我們對於人的查核他的內容要查什麼東西這是剛剛講的公人任用法還有剛剛那個規則國安局國防部有一個更高的規則我覺得這個是好事然後再來是查核的時機有沒有定期這也是一個這也是重要的事情但有一個小地方\n\n19\n00:07:19,637 --> 00:07:38,406\n就是說這一個就是最近共諜案有很多出現的是發生在助理他有可能是議員的助理有可能是立院的助理這個我覺得會有一個困境就是說其實照理說助理他今天有可能有機會接觸到國家機密但他有機會接觸不是因為他有access\n\n20\n00:07:38,726 --> 00:07:56,241\n他完全沒有但他就是有機會碰得到因為老闆可能坐在那邊他可能走過去翻一下他就看到了又或者說像我們立院的一些譬如說清潔或者說這個我們的住景等等之類的就是他是有機會碰觸到但是他根本不能夠看\n\n21\n00:07:57,242 --> 00:08:21,238\n那在這個框架之下我們有兩件事情要規範第一個如果他們去接觸了他當然不應該接觸這個機密他去刺探了自然會有刑責這是一塊但另外一塊就是又回到預防但是預防如果我們對立院助理做忠誠考核這會有點奇怪因為畢竟立法院這些人他是這些立法委員所聘僱那他在聘僱的過程當中他又是民意代表\n\n22\n00:08:21,678 --> 00:08:45,306\n那如果說我們今天調查局直接說我們要來針對每一個黨的這個助理來做忠誠考核我覺得這會出問題他會說你是不是在做政治追殺但如果我們不做的話立院助理又成為一個非常重要對方滲透的對象這是我們現在遇到的困境剛剛楚英委員在問的時候也有問到比如說立法委員立法委員照理說他今天去中國我提了案說他應該要報准剛剛楚英委員有問\n\n23\n00:08:46,386 --> 00:09:13,447\n他們就講說沒有啊國會自律啊等等之類的但問題是如果你今天不規範它就變成破口因為中國就知道反正你沒有把兩岸條例你沒有把立院放到附中規範裡面它來也都不用報備行程見了誰也不用講見了黨政軍談了什麼協議什麼都不用公開它就變成台灣滲透的破口所以這件事情我自己也沒有一個很精準的答案我當時為什麼會提立院附中比較重要的原因就是因為我只敢到處在揭露\n\n24\n00:09:14,187 --> 00:09:33,730\n我絕對不能說我們來做忠誠考核又或者說好我們就直接行者他如果一再犯行他本來就會有但如果揭露是最輕度的或者說今天你要這個宣誓說我絕對沒有什麼什麼等等之類的現在我們對很多的這個教育部所屬的人員做了類似的事情所以這個部分呢可能不管是國安局\n\n25\n00:09:34,811 --> 00:09:58,425\n還是調查局然後還是我們的人事總署有可能我們在這半年之內或者說不要說半年可能兩三個月我覺得這是蠻趕的就是說我們都知道助理本來就是一個重要的被滲透的對象但我們又不能夠直接做忠誠考核的狀況之下那我們該怎麼辦就是有沒有什麼好的建議這個部分我覺得應該是這幾個月大家可以去去腦力激盪的一個思考方向\n\n26\n00:09:58,965 --> 00:10:27,664\n是我的想法就是說針對這個安防的一個教育是有必要的比如說助理的部分如何介紹中共的滲透手法以及它右膝的一個方式樣態的部分要給助理來知道這個樣態讓他們有這種防範的一個意識對因為這可以分成兩個層次朱主席抱歉我借一個一分鐘就是說有一些事他本來就被安排來滲透的那個這必須藉由一定的忠誠考核才有辦法擋下來\n\n27\n00:10:28,484 --> 00:10:56,467\n但有一部分就像剛剛這一個副座講的他本來是一個正常的助理但他中間的時候被接觸了可能幫他還個房貸啊什麼等等之類的那這個時候如果他有最基本的一些知識的話他有可能可以去擋下這件事情但是有一個好的不然是保險的制度啊還是說剛剛講的教育的訓練啊還是說到底我們能夠審查到什麼程度我覺得特別的重要如果說真的做不到的話至少針對立法委員本人我覺得應該要做到最基本程度的一些揭露\n\n28\n00:10:56,847 --> 00:11:21,542\n不管是像比方我們要政治獻金的洩露像立法委員他今天政治獻金他的這個所有的款項他的帳戶其實都是在被警示的狀態那他去敵國去見了黨政軍這個照理說都應該是要被警示都應該要讓社會大眾知道那很可惜法案一直被擋那總之這都是一些全盤的我認為可以讓我們共諜案就是整個通盤來做一些機制上的一個建立可以讓國家更為安全\n\n29\n00:11:22,463 --> 00:11:31,698\n但是就沒有辦法不好意思讓這個副總監在這邊回答這些問題那下次如果有機會人事總署如果在這邊或DH在這邊的話我們就可以再細問一些狀況好那我先這樣謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t3845\t主席那有請這個有請國安局副局長謝謝\n14959\t41848\t喂你好你好那這個呢其實呢我也不是很確定今天到底要找誰比較好因為今天最主要是在講這一個中程查核的問題那因為目前來講就是說台灣的這一個在做中程查核最主要依據的法規是這一個涉及國家重大利益什麼等等的XX辦法那因為這一個辦法它的主管機關是行政院人事總署那行政院人事總署先沒有來\n43989\t67931\t執行單位是調查局調查局在隔壁所以就變成說其實最主要是要問這兩個單位但是我想問的是這樣子就是說因為關於這一個查核辦法的內容到底應該怎麼訂定等等之類的我有把它先暫時放在這邊涉及國家安全或重大利益或公務人員特殊查核辦法調查局也有針對這一個我想說你可能\n68731\t88146\t對這一個是相對比較熟悉那我想知道的事情就是說因為這一個是針對國家安全重大利益的公務人員它其實那個付表非常非常的多那現在是不是國安局除了這個辦法之外另外對於內部的人員然後涉及一些譬如說機敏資訊又有另外一套查核\n88906\t115242\t是嘛 對不對因為我了解的話國安局應該是這樣國防部應該也是這樣那這一個外交部的話反而應該比較多是就是先針對原本工人利用法裡面的這個查核辦法所以呢 那我就會認為說因為如果國防部跟國安局原本就已經有自己的更嚴格的這個查核措施這個我比較沒有什麼意見我比較有意見的反而是原本的這個比較基礎的這個查核辦法我認為裡面有不足的地方\n116002\t144043\t但這個不足的地方要問人事總署跟調查局不是問你們所以有點可惜那這邊我是這個是針對剛剛那一個辦法因為這個辦法的當時是比較著重在外國或中國的聯繫等等洩密記錄它比較不針對財務狀況心理健康親屬背景等等之類的但是如果是依照國防部還有依照國安局應該就有這個財務狀況跟心理健康的部分這個我理解應該沒有錯對不對\n145704\t169209\t所以呢 那我現在在想的事情就是說呢原本的辦法也比較沒有這一個定期查核的標準 但你們有我知道國防部有啦 國安局有嘛國防部應該是三年一次 但國安局呢也有 也有嘛所以呢 這個就是說呢我現在是認為說國防部跟國安局比較嚴格的標準反而應該在一般的辦法就應該要訂定然後呢 你們可能還要再往上更嚴格這是我的一個建議啦\n170202\t192630\t但是我就說今天這個應該屬於這個的人不在但不過我想問的是倒數第二個這一個就是申訴或者行政救濟的機制為什麼我這樣講呢我先把它拉到後面就是說在美國這一邊它是有這個資訊安全監督辦公室他們在主責那他們會有一個申訴委員會那這個申訴委員會本身指的是比如說加密等級\n193590\t216051\t那今天在加密等級的這個申訴委員會呢它是由國防部、國務院、中情局又比較像我們的國安局、國家檔案館去審查不符加密決定的申訴那我想問的就是因為剛剛前面講的是預防就是clearance check這個部分那現在如果是針對機密核定的這一個部分我們有沒有什麼申訴的管道\n217593\t246236\t呃 管局的部分是有在我們的查核辦法裡面是有這個申訴的一個管道我們申訴完對我們單位沒有通過的對我們單位做一個申請那這個是人的部分嘛 對不對就是說你在人做這個忠誠考核的時候如果他不服或者他有一個申訴的管道那如果是對事呢就假設今天你們在核定這個機密的過程當中結果有人對於這個機密的核定的方式他如果不服的話呢這個部分有沒有\n248626\t267563\t這個國安局是沒有這比較沒有嘛就我所知應該是沒有所以那這個部分我現在會比較想要理解的事情是這樣但其實說真的這個其實也不是國安局的業務啦就是說因為目前來講我們剛剛講的很多都是這個人他當然都沒有犯罪他也還沒有泄密我們單純要先針對他的背景來做考核看他有沒有問題嘛\n268724\t295193\t金融的記錄啊什麼等等之類的但另外一個是如果說我們今天在先不要管人只管事的話就是針對機密等級的劃分那現在呢就有一個疑慮齁這個我知道有一些人也蠻愛問的就是因為我們台灣現在針對公務機密假設我今天認為有個機密立法委員要質詢我會開機密會議嗎其實我們是接觸的到的齁那但是就是說對於什麼事情是不是跟國家機密是跟公務機密有關我們現在是有一個叫文書處理規則\n296593\t326242\t那這個我說處理規則到底有沒有可能有點被濫用的這個狀況因為現在我發現一個狀況就是有時候在質詢的時候官員可能說這個是機密但它機密本身其實有時候不是是因為它的內容會有一些重大的影響不是而是因為裡面有個資那有時候裡面有個資它也列為機密但這個機密其實它對國家的安全有時候不一定有影響有時候有影響所以在美國的時候它會去分類成下面這兩個一個叫限越機密一個叫保護機密那限越就比較多是\n326882\t351060\t講的這個後面這一種什麼它是可能有嚴重的損害啦或者這個是serious damage還是單純的damage它會有這個分類但保護機密就比較偏個資它的意思就是說因為它有個資的保護所以它把它當作機密但跟前面的限約機密把它做分開那我們現在文書處理規則對於這個部分其實是沒有分類那沒有分類的狀況之下就會變成機密有點有點多啦\n351420\t365445\t把機密點多的時候就會造成很多委員在質詢的時候就一直問說為什麼這個是機密上次我在當趙委的時候黃國昌問為什麼這個是機密問了十分鐘所以這個部分我覺得好像我們也是可以有一個檢討的空間然後我就去拉了一些數據像美國\n367205\t391273\t2001年他們每年政府核定的機密是839萬筆2009年到5000多萬筆這個數真的就有點多這個如果黃國昌看到他應該會崩潰所以他沒有辦法在美國做質詢因為美國本來就沒有質詢但是簡單來講就是說我們今天對機密核定的方式就算按照我剛剛講的美國已經算是把它分類的跟我們比較不一樣也比較嚴格但它的機密還是會有腐爛的問題\n392233\t416969\t那這個腐爛的問題有時候當然其實簡單來講如果立法委要做監督那就直接開機密會議就得了但有時候它其實只是一個受保護的跟各自有關的機密那這個部分要如果把它拆分的話那就變成說我們在不管是在質詢或者在討論事情的時候可能會更為方便我這邊是小小的建議而已好像有建議那拉回來就是剛剛講的這一個查核的這一個時機的問題\n419107\t438877\t就是說我們今天剛剛講的查核回到對人的部分如果我們對於人的查核他的內容要查什麼東西這是剛剛講的公人任用法還有剛剛那個規則國安局國防部有一個更高的規則我覺得這個是好事然後再來是查核的時機有沒有定期這也是一個這也是重要的事情但有一個小地方\n439637\t458406\t就是說這一個就是最近共諜案有很多出現的是發生在助理他有可能是議員的助理有可能是立院的助理這個我覺得會有一個困境就是說其實照理說助理他今天有可能有機會接觸到國家機密但他有機會接觸不是因為他有access\n458726\t476241\t他完全沒有但他就是有機會碰得到因為老闆可能坐在那邊他可能走過去翻一下他就看到了又或者說像我們立院的一些譬如說清潔或者說這個我們的住景等等之類的就是他是有機會碰觸到但是他根本不能夠看\n477242\t501238\t那在這個框架之下我們有兩件事情要規範第一個如果他們去接觸了他當然不應該接觸這個機密他去刺探了自然會有刑責這是一塊但另外一塊就是又回到預防但是預防如果我們對立院助理做忠誠考核這會有點奇怪因為畢竟立法院這些人他是這些立法委員所聘僱那他在聘僱的過程當中他又是民意代表\n501678\t525306\t那如果說我們今天調查局直接說我們要來針對每一個黨的這個助理來做忠誠考核我覺得這會出問題他會說你是不是在做政治追殺但如果我們不做的話立院助理又成為一個非常重要對方滲透的對象這是我們現在遇到的困境剛剛楚英委員在問的時候也有問到比如說立法委員立法委員照理說他今天去中國我提了案說他應該要報准剛剛楚英委員有問\n526386\t553447\t他們就講說沒有啊國會自律啊等等之類的但問題是如果你今天不規範它就變成破口因為中國就知道反正你沒有把兩岸條例你沒有把立院放到附中規範裡面它來也都不用報備行程見了誰也不用講見了黨政軍談了什麼協議什麼都不用公開它就變成台灣滲透的破口所以這件事情我自己也沒有一個很精準的答案我當時為什麼會提立院附中比較重要的原因就是因為我只敢到處在揭露\n554187\t573730\t我絕對不能說我們來做忠誠考核又或者說好我們就直接行者他如果一再犯行他本來就會有但如果揭露是最輕度的或者說今天你要這個宣誓說我絕對沒有什麼什麼等等之類的現在我們對很多的這個教育部所屬的人員做了類似的事情所以這個部分呢可能不管是國安局\n574811\t598425\t還是調查局然後還是我們的人事總署有可能我們在這半年之內或者說不要說半年可能兩三個月我覺得這是蠻趕的就是說我們都知道助理本來就是一個重要的被滲透的對象但我們又不能夠直接做忠誠考核的狀況之下那我們該怎麼辦就是有沒有什麼好的建議這個部分我覺得應該是這幾個月大家可以去去腦力激盪的一個思考方向\n598965\t627664\t是 我的想法就是說針對這個安防的一個教育是有必要的比如說助理的部分如何介紹中共的滲透手法以及它右膝的一個方式 樣態的部分要給助理來知道這個樣態讓他們有這種防範的一個意識對 因為這可以分成兩個層次朱主席 抱歉我借一個一分鐘就是說有一些事他本來就被安排來滲透的那個這必須藉由一定的忠誠考核才有辦法擋下來\n628484\t656467\t但有一部分就像剛剛這一個副座講的他本來是一個正常的助理但他中間的時候被接觸了可能幫他還個房貸啊什麼等等之類的那這個時候如果他有最基本的一些知識的話他有可能可以去擋下這件事情但是有一個好的不然是保險的制度啊還是說剛剛講的教育的訓練啊還是說到底我們能夠審查到什麼程度我覺得特別的重要如果說真的做不到的話至少針對立法委員本人我覺得應該要做到最基本程度的一些揭露\n656847\t681542\t不管是像比方我們要政治獻金的洩露像立法委員他今天政治獻金他的這個所有的款項他的帳戶其實都是在被警示的狀態那他去敵國去見了黨政軍這個照理說都應該是要被警示都應該要讓社會大眾知道那很可惜法案一直被擋那總之這都是一些全盤的我認為可以讓我們共諜案就是整個通盤來做一些機制上的一個建立可以讓國家更為安全\n682463\t691698\t但是就沒有辦法不好意思讓這個副總監在這邊回答這些問題那下次如果有機會人事總署如果在這邊或DH在這邊的話我們就可以再細問一些狀況好 那我先這樣 謝謝好 謝謝委員\n","txt":"主席那有請這個有請國安局副局長謝謝\n喂你好你好那這個呢其實呢我也不是很確定今天到底要找誰比較好因為今天最主要是在講這一個中程查核的問題那因為目前來講就是說台灣的這一個在做中程查核最主要依據的法規是這一個涉及國家重大利益什麼等等的XX辦法那因為這一個辦法它的主管機關是行政院人事總署那行政院人事總署先沒有來\n執行單位是調查局調查局在隔壁所以就變成說其實最主要是要問這兩個單位但是我想問的是這樣子就是說因為關於這一個查核辦法的內容到底應該怎麼訂定等等之類的我有把它先暫時放在這邊涉及國家安全或重大利益或公務人員特殊查核辦法調查局也有針對這一個我想說你可能\n對這一個是相對比較熟悉那我想知道的事情就是說因為這一個是針對國家安全重大利益的公務人員它其實那個付表非常非常的多那現在是不是國安局除了這個辦法之外另外對於內部的人員然後涉及一些譬如說機敏資訊又有另外一套查核\n是嘛 對不對因為我了解的話國安局應該是這樣國防部應該也是這樣那這一個外交部的話反而應該比較多是就是先針對原本工人利用法裡面的這個查核辦法所以呢 那我就會認為說因為如果國防部跟國安局原本就已經有自己的更嚴格的這個查核措施這個我比較沒有什麼意見我比較有意見的反而是原本的這個比較基礎的這個查核辦法我認為裡面有不足的地方\n但這個不足的地方要問人事總署跟調查局不是問你們所以有點可惜那這邊我是這個是針對剛剛那一個辦法因為這個辦法的當時是比較著重在外國或中國的聯繫等等洩密記錄它比較不針對財務狀況心理健康親屬背景等等之類的但是如果是依照國防部還有依照國安局應該就有這個財務狀況跟心理健康的部分這個我理解應該沒有錯對不對\n所以呢 那我現在在想的事情就是說呢原本的辦法也比較沒有這一個定期查核的標準 但你們有我知道國防部有啦 國安局有嘛國防部應該是三年一次 但國安局呢也有 也有嘛所以呢 這個就是說呢我現在是認為說國防部跟國安局比較嚴格的標準反而應該在一般的辦法就應該要訂定然後呢 你們可能還要再往上更嚴格這是我的一個建議啦\n但是我就說今天這個應該屬於這個的人不在但不過我想問的是倒數第二個這一個就是申訴或者行政救濟的機制為什麼我這樣講呢我先把它拉到後面就是說在美國這一邊它是有這個資訊安全監督辦公室他們在主責那他們會有一個申訴委員會那這個申訴委員會本身指的是比如說加密等級\n那今天在加密等級的這個申訴委員會呢它是由國防部、國務院、中情局又比較像我們的國安局、國家檔案館去審查不符加密決定的申訴那我想問的就是因為剛剛前面講的是預防就是clearance check這個部分那現在如果是針對機密核定的這一個部分我們有沒有什麼申訴的管道\n呃 管局的部分是有在我們的查核辦法裡面是有這個申訴的一個管道我們申訴完對我們單位沒有通過的對我們單位做一個申請那這個是人的部分嘛 對不對就是說你在人做這個忠誠考核的時候如果他不服或者他有一個申訴的管道那如果是對事呢就假設今天你們在核定這個機密的過程當中結果有人對於這個機密的核定的方式他如果不服的話呢這個部分有沒有\n這個國安局是沒有這比較沒有嘛就我所知應該是沒有所以那這個部分我現在會比較想要理解的事情是這樣但其實說真的這個其實也不是國安局的業務啦就是說因為目前來講我們剛剛講的很多都是這個人他當然都沒有犯罪他也還沒有泄密我們單純要先針對他的背景來做考核看他有沒有問題嘛\n金融的記錄啊什麼等等之類的但另外一個是如果說我們今天在先不要管人只管事的話就是針對機密等級的劃分那現在呢就有一個疑慮齁這個我知道有一些人也蠻愛問的就是因為我們台灣現在針對公務機密假設我今天認為有個機密立法委員要質詢我會開機密會議嗎其實我們是接觸的到的齁那但是就是說對於什麼事情是不是跟國家機密是跟公務機密有關我們現在是有一個叫文書處理規則\n那這個我說處理規則到底有沒有可能有點被濫用的這個狀況因為現在我發現一個狀況就是有時候在質詢的時候官員可能說這個是機密但它機密本身其實有時候不是是因為它的內容會有一些重大的影響不是而是因為裡面有個資那有時候裡面有個資它也列為機密但這個機密其實它對國家的安全有時候不一定有影響有時候有影響所以在美國的時候它會去分類成下面這兩個一個叫限越機密一個叫保護機密那限越就比較多是\n講的這個後面這一種什麼它是可能有嚴重的損害啦或者這個是serious damage還是單純的damage它會有這個分類但保護機密就比較偏個資它的意思就是說因為它有個資的保護所以它把它當作機密但跟前面的限約機密把它做分開那我們現在文書處理規則對於這個部分其實是沒有分類那沒有分類的狀況之下就會變成機密有點有點多啦\n把機密點多的時候就會造成很多委員在質詢的時候就一直問說為什麼這個是機密上次我在當趙委的時候黃國昌問為什麼這個是機密問了十分鐘所以這個部分我覺得好像我們也是可以有一個檢討的空間然後我就去拉了一些數據像美國\n2001年他們每年政府核定的機密是839萬筆2009年到5000多萬筆這個數真的就有點多這個如果黃國昌看到他應該會崩潰所以他沒有辦法在美國做質詢因為美國本來就沒有質詢但是簡單來講就是說我們今天對機密核定的方式就算按照我剛剛講的美國已經算是把它分類的跟我們比較不一樣也比較嚴格但它的機密還是會有腐爛的問題\n那這個腐爛的問題有時候當然其實簡單來講如果立法委要做監督那就直接開機密會議就得了但有時候它其實只是一個受保護的跟各自有關的機密那這個部分要如果把它拆分的話那就變成說我們在不管是在質詢或者在討論事情的時候可能會更為方便我這邊是小小的建議而已好像有建議那拉回來就是剛剛講的這一個查核的這一個時機的問題\n就是說我們今天剛剛講的查核回到對人的部分如果我們對於人的查核他的內容要查什麼東西這是剛剛講的公人任用法還有剛剛那個規則國安局國防部有一個更高的規則我覺得這個是好事然後再來是查核的時機有沒有定期這也是一個這也是重要的事情但有一個小地方\n就是說這一個就是最近共諜案有很多出現的是發生在助理他有可能是議員的助理有可能是立院的助理這個我覺得會有一個困境就是說其實照理說助理他今天有可能有機會接觸到國家機密但他有機會接觸不是因為他有access\n他完全沒有但他就是有機會碰得到因為老闆可能坐在那邊他可能走過去翻一下他就看到了又或者說像我們立院的一些譬如說清潔或者說這個我們的住景等等之類的就是他是有機會碰觸到但是他根本不能夠看\n那在這個框架之下我們有兩件事情要規範第一個如果他們去接觸了他當然不應該接觸這個機密他去刺探了自然會有刑責這是一塊但另外一塊就是又回到預防但是預防如果我們對立院助理做忠誠考核這會有點奇怪因為畢竟立法院這些人他是這些立法委員所聘僱那他在聘僱的過程當中他又是民意代表\n那如果說我們今天調查局直接說我們要來針對每一個黨的這個助理來做忠誠考核我覺得這會出問題他會說你是不是在做政治追殺但如果我們不做的話立院助理又成為一個非常重要對方滲透的對象這是我們現在遇到的困境剛剛楚英委員在問的時候也有問到比如說立法委員立法委員照理說他今天去中國我提了案說他應該要報准剛剛楚英委員有問\n他們就講說沒有啊國會自律啊等等之類的但問題是如果你今天不規範它就變成破口因為中國就知道反正你沒有把兩岸條例你沒有把立院放到附中規範裡面它來也都不用報備行程見了誰也不用講見了黨政軍談了什麼協議什麼都不用公開它就變成台灣滲透的破口所以這件事情我自己也沒有一個很精準的答案我當時為什麼會提立院附中比較重要的原因就是因為我只敢到處在揭露\n我絕對不能說我們來做忠誠考核又或者說好我們就直接行者他如果一再犯行他本來就會有但如果揭露是最輕度的或者說今天你要這個宣誓說我絕對沒有什麼什麼等等之類的現在我們對很多的這個教育部所屬的人員做了類似的事情所以這個部分呢可能不管是國安局\n還是調查局然後還是我們的人事總署有可能我們在這半年之內或者說不要說半年可能兩三個月我覺得這是蠻趕的就是說我們都知道助理本來就是一個重要的被滲透的對象但我們又不能夠直接做忠誠考核的狀況之下那我們該怎麼辦就是有沒有什麼好的建議這個部分我覺得應該是這幾個月大家可以去去腦力激盪的一個思考方向\n是 我的想法就是說針對這個安防的一個教育是有必要的比如說助理的部分如何介紹中共的滲透手法以及它右膝的一個方式 樣態的部分要給助理來知道這個樣態讓他們有這種防範的一個意識對 因為這可以分成兩個層次朱主席 抱歉我借一個一分鐘就是說有一些事他本來就被安排來滲透的那個這必須藉由一定的忠誠考核才有辦法擋下來\n但有一部分就像剛剛這一個副座講的他本來是一個正常的助理但他中間的時候被接觸了可能幫他還個房貸啊什麼等等之類的那這個時候如果他有最基本的一些知識的話他有可能可以去擋下這件事情但是有一個好的不然是保險的制度啊還是說剛剛講的教育的訓練啊還是說到底我們能夠審查到什麼程度我覺得特別的重要如果說真的做不到的話至少針對立法委員本人我覺得應該要做到最基本程度的一些揭露\n不管是像比方我們要政治獻金的洩露像立法委員他今天政治獻金他的這個所有的款項他的帳戶其實都是在被警示的狀態那他去敵國去見了黨政軍這個照理說都應該是要被警示都應該要讓社會大眾知道那很可惜法案一直被擋那總之這都是一些全盤的我認為可以讓我們共諜案就是整個通盤來做一些機制上的一個建立可以讓國家更為安全\n但是就沒有辦法不好意思讓這個副總監在這邊回答這些問題那下次如果有機會人事總署如果在這邊或DH在這邊的話我們就可以再細問一些狀況好 那我先這樣 謝謝好 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:03.845\n主席那有請這個有請國安局副局長謝謝\n\n00:14.959 --> 00:41.848\n喂你好你好那這個呢其實呢我也不是很確定今天到底要找誰比較好因為今天最主要是在講這一個中程查核的問題那因為目前來講就是說台灣的這一個在做中程查核最主要依據的法規是這一個涉及國家重大利益什麼等等的XX辦法那因為這一個辦法它的主管機關是行政院人事總署那行政院人事總署先沒有來\n\n00:43.989 --> 01:07.931\n執行單位是調查局調查局在隔壁所以就變成說其實最主要是要問這兩個單位但是我想問的是這樣子就是說因為關於這一個查核辦法的內容到底應該怎麼訂定等等之類的我有把它先暫時放在這邊涉及國家安全或重大利益或公務人員特殊查核辦法調查局也有針對這一個我想說你可能\n\n01:08.731 --> 01:28.146\n對這一個是相對比較熟悉那我想知道的事情就是說因為這一個是針對國家安全重大利益的公務人員它其實那個付表非常非常的多那現在是不是國安局除了這個辦法之外另外對於內部的人員然後涉及一些譬如說機敏資訊又有另外一套查核\n\n01:28.906 --> 01:55.242\n是嘛對不對因為我了解的話國安局應該是這樣國防部應該也是這樣那這一個外交部的話反而應該比較多是就是先針對原本工人利用法裡面的這個查核辦法所以呢那我就會認為說因為如果國防部跟國安局原本就已經有自己的更嚴格的這個查核措施這個我比較沒有什麼意見我比較有意見的反而是原本的這個比較基礎的這個查核辦法我認為裡面有不足的地方\n\n01:56.002 --> 02:24.043\n但這個不足的地方要問人事總署跟調查局不是問你們所以有點可惜那這邊我是這個是針對剛剛那一個辦法因為這個辦法的當時是比較著重在外國或中國的聯繫等等洩密記錄它比較不針對財務狀況心理健康親屬背景等等之類的但是如果是依照國防部還有依照國安局應該就有這個財務狀況跟心理健康的部分這個我理解應該沒有錯對不對\n\n02:25.704 --> 02:49.209\n所以呢那我現在在想的事情就是說呢原本的辦法也比較沒有這一個定期查核的標準但你們有我知道國防部有啦國安局有嘛國防部應該是三年一次但國安局呢也有也有嘛所以呢這個就是說呢我現在是認為說國防部跟國安局比較嚴格的標準反而應該在一般的辦法就應該要訂定然後呢你們可能還要再往上更嚴格這是我的一個建議啦\n\n02:50.202 --> 03:12.630\n但是我就說今天這個應該屬於這個的人不在但不過我想問的是倒數第二個這一個就是申訴或者行政救濟的機制為什麼我這樣講呢我先把它拉到後面就是說在美國這一邊它是有這個資訊安全監督辦公室他們在主責那他們會有一個申訴委員會那這個申訴委員會本身指的是比如說加密等級\n\n03:13.590 --> 03:36.051\n那今天在加密等級的這個申訴委員會呢它是由國防部、國務院、中情局又比較像我們的國安局、國家檔案館去審查不符加密決定的申訴那我想問的就是因為剛剛前面講的是預防就是clearancecheck這個部分那現在如果是針對機密核定的這一個部分我們有沒有什麼申訴的管道\n\n03:37.593 --> 04:06.236\n呃管局的部分是有在我們的查核辦法裡面是有這個申訴的一個管道我們申訴完對我們單位沒有通過的對我們單位做一個申請那這個是人的部分嘛對不對就是說你在人做這個忠誠考核的時候如果他不服或者他有一個申訴的管道那如果是對事呢就假設今天你們在核定這個機密的過程當中結果有人對於這個機密的核定的方式他如果不服的話呢這個部分有沒有\n\n04:08.626 --> 04:27.563\n這個國安局是沒有這比較沒有嘛就我所知應該是沒有所以那這個部分我現在會比較想要理解的事情是這樣但其實說真的這個其實也不是國安局的業務啦就是說因為目前來講我們剛剛講的很多都是這個人他當然都沒有犯罪他也還沒有泄密我們單純要先針對他的背景來做考核看他有沒有問題嘛\n\n04:28.724 --> 04:55.193\n金融的記錄啊什麼等等之類的但另外一個是如果說我們今天在先不要管人只管事的話就是針對機密等級的劃分那現在呢就有一個疑慮齁這個我知道有一些人也蠻愛問的就是因為我們台灣現在針對公務機密假設我今天認為有個機密立法委員要質詢我會開機密會議嗎其實我們是接觸的到的齁那但是就是說對於什麼事情是不是跟國家機密是跟公務機密有關我們現在是有一個叫文書處理規則\n\n04:56.593 --> 05:26.242\n那這個我說處理規則到底有沒有可能有點被濫用的這個狀況因為現在我發現一個狀況就是有時候在質詢的時候官員可能說這個是機密但它機密本身其實有時候不是是因為它的內容會有一些重大的影響不是而是因為裡面有個資那有時候裡面有個資它也列為機密但這個機密其實它對國家的安全有時候不一定有影響有時候有影響所以在美國的時候它會去分類成下面這兩個一個叫限越機密一個叫保護機密那限越就比較多是\n\n05:26.882 --> 05:51.060\n講的這個後面這一種什麼它是可能有嚴重的損害啦或者這個是seriousdamage還是單純的damage它會有這個分類但保護機密就比較偏個資它的意思就是說因為它有個資的保護所以它把它當作機密但跟前面的限約機密把它做分開那我們現在文書處理規則對於這個部分其實是沒有分類那沒有分類的狀況之下就會變成機密有點有點多啦\n\n05:51.420 --> 06:05.445\n把機密點多的時候就會造成很多委員在質詢的時候就一直問說為什麼這個是機密上次我在當趙委的時候黃國昌問為什麼這個是機密問了十分鐘所以這個部分我覺得好像我們也是可以有一個檢討的空間然後我就去拉了一些數據像美國\n\n06:07.205 --> 06:31.273\n2001年他們每年政府核定的機密是839萬筆2009年到5000多萬筆這個數真的就有點多這個如果黃國昌看到他應該會崩潰所以他沒有辦法在美國做質詢因為美國本來就沒有質詢但是簡單來講就是說我們今天對機密核定的方式就算按照我剛剛講的美國已經算是把它分類的跟我們比較不一樣也比較嚴格但它的機密還是會有腐爛的問題\n\n06:32.233 --> 06:56.969\n那這個腐爛的問題有時候當然其實簡單來講如果立法委要做監督那就直接開機密會議就得了但有時候它其實只是一個受保護的跟各自有關的機密那這個部分要如果把它拆分的話那就變成說我們在不管是在質詢或者在討論事情的時候可能會更為方便我這邊是小小的建議而已好像有建議那拉回來就是剛剛講的這一個查核的這一個時機的問題\n\n06:59.107 --> 07:18.877\n就是說我們今天剛剛講的查核回到對人的部分如果我們對於人的查核他的內容要查什麼東西這是剛剛講的公人任用法還有剛剛那個規則國安局國防部有一個更高的規則我覺得這個是好事然後再來是查核的時機有沒有定期這也是一個這也是重要的事情但有一個小地方\n\n07:19.637 --> 07:38.406\n就是說這一個就是最近共諜案有很多出現的是發生在助理他有可能是議員的助理有可能是立院的助理這個我覺得會有一個困境就是說其實照理說助理他今天有可能有機會接觸到國家機密但他有機會接觸不是因為他有access\n\n07:38.726 --> 07:56.241\n他完全沒有但他就是有機會碰得到因為老闆可能坐在那邊他可能走過去翻一下他就看到了又或者說像我們立院的一些譬如說清潔或者說這個我們的住景等等之類的就是他是有機會碰觸到但是他根本不能夠看\n\n07:57.242 --> 08:21.238\n那在這個框架之下我們有兩件事情要規範第一個如果他們去接觸了他當然不應該接觸這個機密他去刺探了自然會有刑責這是一塊但另外一塊就是又回到預防但是預防如果我們對立院助理做忠誠考核這會有點奇怪因為畢竟立法院這些人他是這些立法委員所聘僱那他在聘僱的過程當中他又是民意代表\n\n08:21.678 --> 08:45.306\n那如果說我們今天調查局直接說我們要來針對每一個黨的這個助理來做忠誠考核我覺得這會出問題他會說你是不是在做政治追殺但如果我們不做的話立院助理又成為一個非常重要對方滲透的對象這是我們現在遇到的困境剛剛楚英委員在問的時候也有問到比如說立法委員立法委員照理說他今天去中國我提了案說他應該要報准剛剛楚英委員有問\n\n08:46.386 --> 09:13.447\n他們就講說沒有啊國會自律啊等等之類的但問題是如果你今天不規範它就變成破口因為中國就知道反正你沒有把兩岸條例你沒有把立院放到附中規範裡面它來也都不用報備行程見了誰也不用講見了黨政軍談了什麼協議什麼都不用公開它就變成台灣滲透的破口所以這件事情我自己也沒有一個很精準的答案我當時為什麼會提立院附中比較重要的原因就是因為我只敢到處在揭露\n\n09:14.187 --> 09:33.730\n我絕對不能說我們來做忠誠考核又或者說好我們就直接行者他如果一再犯行他本來就會有但如果揭露是最輕度的或者說今天你要這個宣誓說我絕對沒有什麼什麼等等之類的現在我們對很多的這個教育部所屬的人員做了類似的事情所以這個部分呢可能不管是國安局\n\n09:34.811 --> 09:58.425\n還是調查局然後還是我們的人事總署有可能我們在這半年之內或者說不要說半年可能兩三個月我覺得這是蠻趕的就是說我們都知道助理本來就是一個重要的被滲透的對象但我們又不能夠直接做忠誠考核的狀況之下那我們該怎麼辦就是有沒有什麼好的建議這個部分我覺得應該是這幾個月大家可以去去腦力激盪的一個思考方向\n\n09:58.965 --> 10:27.664\n是我的想法就是說針對這個安防的一個教育是有必要的比如說助理的部分如何介紹中共的滲透手法以及它右膝的一個方式樣態的部分要給助理來知道這個樣態讓他們有這種防範的一個意識對因為這可以分成兩個層次朱主席抱歉我借一個一分鐘就是說有一些事他本來就被安排來滲透的那個這必須藉由一定的忠誠考核才有辦法擋下來\n\n10:28.484 --> 10:56.467\n但有一部分就像剛剛這一個副座講的他本來是一個正常的助理但他中間的時候被接觸了可能幫他還個房貸啊什麼等等之類的那這個時候如果他有最基本的一些知識的話他有可能可以去擋下這件事情但是有一個好的不然是保險的制度啊還是說剛剛講的教育的訓練啊還是說到底我們能夠審查到什麼程度我覺得特別的重要如果說真的做不到的話至少針對立法委員本人我覺得應該要做到最基本程度的一些揭露\n\n10:56.847 --> 11:21.542\n不管是像比方我們要政治獻金的洩露像立法委員他今天政治獻金他的這個所有的款項他的帳戶其實都是在被警示的狀態那他去敵國去見了黨政軍這個照理說都應該是要被警示都應該要讓社會大眾知道那很可惜法案一直被擋那總之這都是一些全盤的我認為可以讓我們共諜案就是整個通盤來做一些機制上的一個建立可以讓國家更為安全\n\n11:22.463 --> 11:31.698\n但是就沒有辦法不好意思讓這個副總監在這邊回答這些問題那下次如果有機會人事總署如果在這邊或DH在這邊的話我們就可以再細問一些狀況好那我先這樣謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":3.845,"text":"主席那有請這個有請國安局副局長謝謝"},{"start":14.959,"end":41.848,"text":"喂你好你好那這個呢其實呢我也不是很確定今天到底要找誰比較好因為今天最主要是在講這一個中程查核的問題那因為目前來講就是說台灣的這一個在做中程查核最主要依據的法規是這一個涉及國家重大利益什麼等等的XX辦法那因為這一個辦法它的主管機關是行政院人事總署那行政院人事總署先沒有來"},{"start":43.989,"end":67.931,"text":"執行單位是調查局調查局在隔壁所以就變成說其實最主要是要問這兩個單位但是我想問的是這樣子就是說因為關於這一個查核辦法的內容到底應該怎麼訂定等等之類的我有把它先暫時放在這邊涉及國家安全或重大利益或公務人員特殊查核辦法調查局也有針對這一個我想說你可能"},{"start":68.731,"end":88.146,"text":"對這一個是相對比較熟悉那我想知道的事情就是說因為這一個是針對國家安全重大利益的公務人員它其實那個付表非常非常的多那現在是不是國安局除了這個辦法之外另外對於內部的人員然後涉及一些譬如說機敏資訊又有另外一套查核"},{"start":88.906,"end":115.242,"text":"是嘛 對不對因為我了解的話國安局應該是這樣國防部應該也是這樣那這一個外交部的話反而應該比較多是就是先針對原本工人利用法裡面的這個查核辦法所以呢 那我就會認為說因為如果國防部跟國安局原本就已經有自己的更嚴格的這個查核措施這個我比較沒有什麼意見我比較有意見的反而是原本的這個比較基礎的這個查核辦法我認為裡面有不足的地方"},{"start":116.002,"end":144.043,"text":"但這個不足的地方要問人事總署跟調查局不是問你們所以有點可惜那這邊我是這個是針對剛剛那一個辦法因為這個辦法的當時是比較著重在外國或中國的聯繫等等洩密記錄它比較不針對財務狀況心理健康親屬背景等等之類的但是如果是依照國防部還有依照國安局應該就有這個財務狀況跟心理健康的部分這個我理解應該沒有錯對不對"},{"start":145.704,"end":169.209,"text":"所以呢 那我現在在想的事情就是說呢原本的辦法也比較沒有這一個定期查核的標準 但你們有我知道國防部有啦 國安局有嘛國防部應該是三年一次 但國安局呢也有 也有嘛所以呢 這個就是說呢我現在是認為說國防部跟國安局比較嚴格的標準反而應該在一般的辦法就應該要訂定然後呢 你們可能還要再往上更嚴格這是我的一個建議啦"},{"start":170.202,"end":192.63,"text":"但是我就說今天這個應該屬於這個的人不在但不過我想問的是倒數第二個這一個就是申訴或者行政救濟的機制為什麼我這樣講呢我先把它拉到後面就是說在美國這一邊它是有這個資訊安全監督辦公室他們在主責那他們會有一個申訴委員會那這個申訴委員會本身指的是比如說加密等級"},{"start":193.59,"end":216.051,"text":"那今天在加密等級的這個申訴委員會呢它是由國防部、國務院、中情局又比較像我們的國安局、國家檔案館去審查不符加密決定的申訴那我想問的就是因為剛剛前面講的是預防就是clearance check這個部分那現在如果是針對機密核定的這一個部分我們有沒有什麼申訴的管道"},{"start":217.593,"end":246.236,"text":"呃 管局的部分是有在我們的查核辦法裡面是有這個申訴的一個管道我們申訴完對我們單位沒有通過的對我們單位做一個申請那這個是人的部分嘛 對不對就是說你在人做這個忠誠考核的時候如果他不服或者他有一個申訴的管道那如果是對事呢就假設今天你們在核定這個機密的過程當中結果有人對於這個機密的核定的方式他如果不服的話呢這個部分有沒有"},{"start":248.626,"end":267.563,"text":"這個國安局是沒有這比較沒有嘛就我所知應該是沒有所以那這個部分我現在會比較想要理解的事情是這樣但其實說真的這個其實也不是國安局的業務啦就是說因為目前來講我們剛剛講的很多都是這個人他當然都沒有犯罪他也還沒有泄密我們單純要先針對他的背景來做考核看他有沒有問題嘛"},{"start":268.724,"end":295.193,"text":"金融的記錄啊什麼等等之類的但另外一個是如果說我們今天在先不要管人只管事的話就是針對機密等級的劃分那現在呢就有一個疑慮齁這個我知道有一些人也蠻愛問的就是因為我們台灣現在針對公務機密假設我今天認為有個機密立法委員要質詢我會開機密會議嗎其實我們是接觸的到的齁那但是就是說對於什麼事情是不是跟國家機密是跟公務機密有關我們現在是有一個叫文書處理規則"},{"start":296.593,"end":326.242,"text":"那這個我說處理規則到底有沒有可能有點被濫用的這個狀況因為現在我發現一個狀況就是有時候在質詢的時候官員可能說這個是機密但它機密本身其實有時候不是是因為它的內容會有一些重大的影響不是而是因為裡面有個資那有時候裡面有個資它也列為機密但這個機密其實它對國家的安全有時候不一定有影響有時候有影響所以在美國的時候它會去分類成下面這兩個一個叫限越機密一個叫保護機密那限越就比較多是"},{"start":326.882,"end":351.06,"text":"講的這個後面這一種什麼它是可能有嚴重的損害啦或者這個是serious damage還是單純的damage它會有這個分類但保護機密就比較偏個資它的意思就是說因為它有個資的保護所以它把它當作機密但跟前面的限約機密把它做分開那我們現在文書處理規則對於這個部分其實是沒有分類那沒有分類的狀況之下就會變成機密有點有點多啦"},{"start":351.42,"end":365.445,"text":"把機密點多的時候就會造成很多委員在質詢的時候就一直問說為什麼這個是機密上次我在當趙委的時候黃國昌問為什麼這個是機密問了十分鐘所以這個部分我覺得好像我們也是可以有一個檢討的空間然後我就去拉了一些數據像美國"},{"start":367.205,"end":391.273,"text":"2001年他們每年政府核定的機密是839萬筆2009年到5000多萬筆這個數真的就有點多這個如果黃國昌看到他應該會崩潰所以他沒有辦法在美國做質詢因為美國本來就沒有質詢但是簡單來講就是說我們今天對機密核定的方式就算按照我剛剛講的美國已經算是把它分類的跟我們比較不一樣也比較嚴格但它的機密還是會有腐爛的問題"},{"start":392.233,"end":416.969,"text":"那這個腐爛的問題有時候當然其實簡單來講如果立法委要做監督那就直接開機密會議就得了但有時候它其實只是一個受保護的跟各自有關的機密那這個部分要如果把它拆分的話那就變成說我們在不管是在質詢或者在討論事情的時候可能會更為方便我這邊是小小的建議而已好像有建議那拉回來就是剛剛講的這一個查核的這一個時機的問題"},{"start":419.107,"end":438.877,"text":"就是說我們今天剛剛講的查核回到對人的部分如果我們對於人的查核他的內容要查什麼東西這是剛剛講的公人任用法還有剛剛那個規則國安局國防部有一個更高的規則我覺得這個是好事然後再來是查核的時機有沒有定期這也是一個這也是重要的事情但有一個小地方"},{"start":439.637,"end":458.406,"text":"就是說這一個就是最近共諜案有很多出現的是發生在助理他有可能是議員的助理有可能是立院的助理這個我覺得會有一個困境就是說其實照理說助理他今天有可能有機會接觸到國家機密但他有機會接觸不是因為他有access"},{"start":458.726,"end":476.241,"text":"他完全沒有但他就是有機會碰得到因為老闆可能坐在那邊他可能走過去翻一下他就看到了又或者說像我們立院的一些譬如說清潔或者說這個我們的住景等等之類的就是他是有機會碰觸到但是他根本不能夠看"},{"start":477.242,"end":501.238,"text":"那在這個框架之下我們有兩件事情要規範第一個如果他們去接觸了他當然不應該接觸這個機密他去刺探了自然會有刑責這是一塊但另外一塊就是又回到預防但是預防如果我們對立院助理做忠誠考核這會有點奇怪因為畢竟立法院這些人他是這些立法委員所聘僱那他在聘僱的過程當中他又是民意代表"},{"start":501.678,"end":525.306,"text":"那如果說我們今天調查局直接說我們要來針對每一個黨的這個助理來做忠誠考核我覺得這會出問題他會說你是不是在做政治追殺但如果我們不做的話立院助理又成為一個非常重要對方滲透的對象這是我們現在遇到的困境剛剛楚英委員在問的時候也有問到比如說立法委員立法委員照理說他今天去中國我提了案說他應該要報准剛剛楚英委員有問"},{"start":526.386,"end":553.447,"text":"他們就講說沒有啊國會自律啊等等之類的但問題是如果你今天不規範它就變成破口因為中國就知道反正你沒有把兩岸條例你沒有把立院放到附中規範裡面它來也都不用報備行程見了誰也不用講見了黨政軍談了什麼協議什麼都不用公開它就變成台灣滲透的破口所以這件事情我自己也沒有一個很精準的答案我當時為什麼會提立院附中比較重要的原因就是因為我只敢到處在揭露"},{"start":554.187,"end":573.73,"text":"我絕對不能說我們來做忠誠考核又或者說好我們就直接行者他如果一再犯行他本來就會有但如果揭露是最輕度的或者說今天你要這個宣誓說我絕對沒有什麼什麼等等之類的現在我們對很多的這個教育部所屬的人員做了類似的事情所以這個部分呢可能不管是國安局"},{"start":574.811,"end":598.425,"text":"還是調查局然後還是我們的人事總署有可能我們在這半年之內或者說不要說半年可能兩三個月我覺得這是蠻趕的就是說我們都知道助理本來就是一個重要的被滲透的對象但我們又不能夠直接做忠誠考核的狀況之下那我們該怎麼辦就是有沒有什麼好的建議這個部分我覺得應該是這幾個月大家可以去去腦力激盪的一個思考方向"},{"start":598.965,"end":627.664,"text":"是 我的想法就是說針對這個安防的一個教育是有必要的比如說助理的部分如何介紹中共的滲透手法以及它右膝的一個方式 樣態的部分要給助理來知道這個樣態讓他們有這種防範的一個意識對 因為這可以分成兩個層次朱主席 抱歉我借一個一分鐘就是說有一些事他本來就被安排來滲透的那個這必須藉由一定的忠誠考核才有辦法擋下來"},{"start":628.484,"end":656.467,"text":"但有一部分就像剛剛這一個副座講的他本來是一個正常的助理但他中間的時候被接觸了可能幫他還個房貸啊什麼等等之類的那這個時候如果他有最基本的一些知識的話他有可能可以去擋下這件事情但是有一個好的不然是保險的制度啊還是說剛剛講的教育的訓練啊還是說到底我們能夠審查到什麼程度我覺得特別的重要如果說真的做不到的話至少針對立法委員本人我覺得應該要做到最基本程度的一些揭露"},{"start":656.847,"end":681.542,"text":"不管是像比方我們要政治獻金的洩露像立法委員他今天政治獻金他的這個所有的款項他的帳戶其實都是在被警示的狀態那他去敵國去見了黨政軍這個照理說都應該是要被警示都應該要讓社會大眾知道那很可惜法案一直被擋那總之這都是一些全盤的我認為可以讓我們共諜案就是整個通盤來做一些機制上的一個建立可以讓國家更為安全"},{"start":682.463,"end":691.698,"text":"但是就沒有辦法不好意思讓這個副總監在這邊回答這些問題那下次如果有機會人事總署如果在這邊或DH在這邊的話我們就可以再細問一些狀況好 那我先這樣 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":295,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時27分）謝謝主席，有請國安局副局長，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：你好，其實我也不是很確定今天到底要找誰比較好，因為今天最主要是在講忠誠查核的問題，目前來講，臺灣做忠誠查核最主要依據的法規是涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法，因為這一個辦法的主管機關是行政院人事總處，可是行政院人事總處今天沒有來……"],["黃副局長明昭：執行單位是調查局。"],["沈委員伯洋：執行單位是調查局，今天調查局在隔壁，其實今天最主要就是要問這兩個單位，但是我想問的是關於這個查核辦法的內容到底應該怎麼訂定等等之類的，我有把它先暫時放在這邊，涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法，調查局也有針對這個，我想你可能對這個相對熟悉。我想知道的事情是，因為這個是針對國家安全或重大利益的公務人員，其實它的附表非常非常多，現在國安局是不是除了這個辦法之外，另外對於內部人員涉及一些機敏資訊者又有另外一套查核？是嘛，對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為據我的了解，國安局應該是這樣，國防部應該也是這樣，至於外交部比較多會先針對公務人員任用法的查核辦法去做。所以我認為若國防部跟國安局原本就已經有且更嚴格的查核措施，那我沒有意見。我比較有意見的是，原本比較基礎的查核辦法其實是有不足的地方；而不足的地方，就要問人事總處跟調查局，而不是問你們，所以有點可惜。這是針對剛剛的辦法，該辦法當時著重在與外國或中國的聯繫、洩密紀錄等，比較不針對財務狀況、心理健康、親屬背景之類的，而國防部與國安局規定就包含財務狀況跟心理健康部分，這點我的理解應該沒有錯，對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：沒錯。"],["沈委員伯洋：我現在在想的是，原本的辦法並沒有定期查核標準，但國防部有，請問國安局有嗎？國防部是三年一次，國安局呢？"],["黃副局長明昭：也有。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以國防部跟國安局的標準比較嚴格，但我認為這點應該放在一般辦法中訂定，只是你們的還要再更嚴格，這是我的建議，但今天可以回答的人不在。不過我想問的是倒數第二個，也就是申訴或行政救濟機制。為什麼我要這樣講？在美國有資訊安全監督辦公室主責，另外還有申訴委員會，而申訴委員會指的是比如說加密等級，今天在加密等級的申訴委員會是由國防部、國務院中情局─有點像我們的國安局，及國家檔案館審查不服加密決定的申訴。我前面講的是預防，這裡是clearance check，但如果是針對機密核定的話，我們有沒有什麼申訴管道？"],["黃副局長明昭：國安局有申訴管道，是訂定在查核辦法裡。即查核沒有通過的，可以向我們單位提出申訴……"],["沈委員伯洋：這是人的部分，對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：對，人的部分。"],["沈委員伯洋：在對人做忠誠考核時，一旦不服的話可以有一個申訴管道。但如果是對事呢？假設你們在核定機密的過程當中，有人對於機密核定方式不服呢？這個部分有沒有？"],["黃副局長明昭：國安局……"],["沈委員伯洋：這比較沒有，對不對？就我所知應該是沒有。"],["黃副局長明昭：沒有這方面的規範。"],["沈委員伯洋：我現在比較想理解的事情是……其實說真的，這不是國安局業務。我們剛剛講了很多，也就是這個人其實沒有犯罪，也沒有洩密，只是單純就其背景做考核，看他有沒有問題，或查金融紀錄之類的。","另外，如果我們今天先不管人，只管事，也就是只針對機密等級的劃分來說，那麼現在有個疑慮，我知道有些人滿愛問的，假設今天有個機密事項要討論，因為立法委員要質詢，所以必須開機密會議，這樣我們是接觸得到的。對於並非跟國家機密有關，而是跟公務機密有關的，現在是有文書處理規則，問題是：文書處理規則到底有沒有被濫用？因為我發現在質詢時，官員可能說這是機密，而之所以為機密，有時並非因內容有重大影響，不是！而是因為裡面有個資所以列為機密，但這個機密對國家安全不一定有影響，有時候又有影響。對此，美國會分類成兩種：一個叫限閱機密，一個叫保護機密。限閱講的比較多是可能有嚴重損害（serious damage）或單純的damage，會有這些分類；至於保護機密則比較偏個資，意思就是基於個資保護，故當作機密，並與前面的限閱分開，但我們現在的文書處理規則對這部分其實並沒有分類！在沒有分類的狀況下，就會變成機密有點多；因為機密有點多，所以很多委員在質詢時會一直問，為什麼這個是機密？上次我在當召委時，黃國昌問為什麼這個是機密就問了10分鐘，我覺得這部分是有檢討空間的！我就找了一些數據，像美國2001年政府核定的機密是839萬筆，2009年到五千多萬筆，這個數字說真的有點多，如果黃國昌看到的話應該會崩潰，所以他沒辦法在美國質詢，不過美國本來就沒有質詢。","簡單來講，對機密核定的方式，按照我剛剛講的，美國已經分類，這點跟我們比較不一樣，也比較嚴格，但它的機密還是會有浮濫的問題。其實如果立法委員要監督的話，就直接開機密會議就好了！畢竟有時候只是一個受保護的、跟個資有關的機密，這部分如果能拆分的話，相信不管是質詢或討論事情時會更為方便，這是我的小小建議。","現在拉回來講查核的問題。回到對人的部分，如果是對人的查核，那麼內容是要查什麼？公務人員任用法，還有剛剛那個規則，而國安局和國防部則有更高的規則，我覺得這是好事。","再來是查核的時機有沒有定期，這也是重要的事。現在有個小地方要注意，以最近的共諜案來說，很多發生在助理身上，可能是議員助理，可能是立院助理。我覺得這會面臨一個困境，助理可能有機會接觸到國家機密，但之所以有機會接觸並不是因為他有access，他完全沒有！他就是有機會碰到，可能是因為老闆坐在那邊，他走過去翻一下就看到了；又或者說像立院的清潔人員或駐警之類的，也是有機會碰觸到，但他根本不能夠看！在這個框架之下，我認為有兩件事情要規範：第一個，如果他去接觸了，當然，他不應該接觸機密，而他去刺探了自然會有刑責，這是一塊；另外一塊則是回到預防。如果我們對立院助理做忠誠考核的話會有點奇怪，畢竟這些人是立法委員所聘僱的，在聘僱過程當中他是民意代表。因此，如果調查局直接說要針對每一個黨的助理做忠誠考核，我覺得會出問題！他會說這是不是在做政治追殺？但如果不做的話，立院助理又成為對方滲透的非常重要對象，這是我們現在遇到的困境。","剛剛林楚茵委員質詢時也有問到立法委員去中國的問題，我曾提案要求應報准，但他們認為這是國會自律等等之類的。問題是，如果今天不規範，他就會變成破口！因為中國就會知道我們沒有把兩岸條例、沒有把立法委員放到赴中規範裡，而且不用報備，行程中見了誰也不用講，見了黨政軍的誰、談了什麼協議都不用公開，這樣就會變成臺灣被滲透的破口！對這件事情，我自己也沒有一個很精準的答案。我當時為什麼會提立院赴中應報准的一個重要原因是：我只敢這樣揭露，我絕對不能說做忠誠考核！又或者說就直接來，畢竟有了犯行本來就會有刑責，而揭露只是最輕度的！或者要宣示說絕對沒有什麼、什麼等等之類的，現在教育部所屬人員就做了類似的事情。","所以不管是國安局還是調查局，或者是人事總處，可能在半年之內，甚或兩、三個月內完成，雖然滿趕的。畢竟我們都知道助理本來就是重要的被滲透對象，但在我們不能直接做忠誠考核的狀況下，請問我們該怎麼辦？不知有沒有什麼好的建議？對此，我覺得這是這幾個月大家可以腦力激盪的思考方向。"],["黃副局長明昭：我的想法是，安防教育是有必要的，比方助理部分，可以介紹中共如何滲透的手法及誘吸的方式樣態給助理知道，讓他們有防範意識。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這可以分成兩個層次。主席，抱歉我借個一分鐘。有些是本來就被安排來滲透的，所以必須有一定的忠誠考核才有辦法擋下來；至於有部分就像剛剛副座講的，本來是一個正常助理，可能中間被接觸了，說幫他還個房貸或其他什麼之類。這時候如果有最基本的知識，可能可以擋下這件事情。但如果能有一個好的保險制度，或者是剛剛講的教育訓練，抑或我們到底能審查到什麼程度？這些我覺得特別重要。如果真的做不到的話，至少針對立法委員本人應該要做到最基本程度的揭露，像政治獻金的揭露，立法委員政治獻金的所有款項、帳戶其實都是在被警示狀態。若他去敵國見了黨政軍人士，照理說都應該要被警示，都應該讓社會大眾知道，很可惜法案一直被擋。","總之，我認為我們應該就共諜案做通盤檢討，並建立機制，讓國家更為安全，只是副座沒辦法在這邊回答這些問題。下次如果有機會，人事總處或調查局派員列席的話，就可以再細問一些狀況。我就先問到這裡，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委上台發言。","因為目前收到臨時提案，共2案，待會到陳冠廷委員上台質詢之後我們就進行處理，處理完畢休息5分鐘。","接下來由馬文君委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}}