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\"察\", \"start\": 926.343, \"end\": 926.804, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 926.804, \"end\": 927.004, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 927.004, \"end\": 927.164, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 927.164, \"end\": 927.525, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 927.525, \"end\": 927.845, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 927.845, \"end\": 927.905, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 927.905, \"end\": 927.925, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 928.886, \"end\": 949.117, \"text\": \"一個偵查的一個對 就是個案偵查 他要怎麼樣保全證據他要怎麼樣發現真實 這個在承辦的檢察官由他來決定對不對這個是決定沒有黨派 決定沒有預設而且這樣子啦 我這樣問你啦今天有一間30年老店 經過30年今天出了一個滷肉飯 結果裡面出現一隻蟑螂然後隔壁有一間餐廳\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 928.886, \"end\": 929.366, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 929.366, \"end\": 929.566, \"score\": 0.907}, 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\"老\", \"start\": 944.174, \"end\": 944.394, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"店\", \"start\": 944.394, \"end\": 945.475, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 945.475, \"end\": 946.215, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 946.215, \"end\": 946.296, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 946.296, \"end\": 946.456, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 946.456, \"end\": 946.596, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 946.596, \"end\": 946.676, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 946.676, \"end\": 946.936, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"滷\"}, {\"word\": \"肉\", \"start\": 946.936, \"end\": 947.416, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"飯\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 947.416, \"end\": 947.636, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 947.636, \"end\": 948.617, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 1137.588, \"end\": 1137.768, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1137.768, \"end\": 1138.129, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1138.129, \"end\": 1138.229, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1138.229, \"end\": 1138.329, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1138.329, \"end\": 1138.349, \"score\": 0.953}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,726 --> 00:00:13,949\n主席這不知道哪個委員的手機放在這喔好\n\n2\n00:00:17,063 --> 00:00:35,117\n主席,我想剛才盧委員的質詢,他一開始也是針對我們這個主題詢問主席的這跟我也不約而同,我跟他又不熟,也不同黨,但是我們同樣對今天的這個主題都有一些問題所以我這也是先請教一下主席\n\n3\n00:00:36,398 --> 00:01:01,501\n我們今天的主題是說這個選舉罷免程序中這就主題是選舉罷免程序那在這個程序裡面呢如何落實幾種人呢公務人員含政務官司法人員是第二個選務人員是第三個三種人幹什麼呢落實什麼呢他們能不能恪守行政中立秉持公正執法\n\n4\n00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:22,968\n誤偏頗這是今天的主題嘛對不對我大概因為這個主題這麼長齁我這個比較奴頓我就必須要把它拆解文法齁才理解主詞是什麼授詞是什麼那這樣子如果今天是這個主題的話齁那如果問題是說選舉罷免程序中是否應該\n\n5\n00:01:25,166 --> 00:01:38,114\n這些人是否應該恪守行政中立秉持公正執法勿偏頗我想這答案就是YES是的當然不用說就是所以其實沒有什麼好討論\n\n6\n00:01:39,625 --> 00:01:58,958\n但是沒什麼好討論我想主席為什麼也會把它列成一個專案報告咧一個專題報告那一定是你有認為說現在有一些狀況現在目前有一些狀況你認為沒有落實沒有這個恪守行政中立目前有一些狀況他沒有秉持公正執法所以你認為說現在的狀況有這種問題才排這個案子嘛對不對\n\n7\n00:02:03,581 --> 00:02:30,432\n那就是我也不曉得主席個人主觀認為現在有什麼樣的狀況是不符合是沒有恪守行政中立那我需要跟委員報告嗎你如果要報告我時間都還沒開始對沒有開始跟委員報告就是說因為現在呢有行政不中立這個東西當然啦就是說如果活在自己的同溫層跟泡泡圈裡面會覺得哪有行政不中立但是呢行政不中立這個確實是國人有非常多的質疑\n\n8\n00:02:31,212 --> 00:02:51,977\n那當然在特定媒體是不會看到但在非特定媒體的時候會有我怕我的質詢離題我也怕說被說我現在在討論哪一個案子就變成討論個案所以我必須了解主席你到底你今天關心的到底是什麼案子什麼狀況它是現在是沒有行政中立現在是沒有公正執法有關是否討論個案部分\n\n9\n00:02:54,558 --> 00:03:22,296\n在九點多的時候那時候我們曾經有討論過一次只是可能各位委員當時沒有在場當時我就問到因為第一位的陳培武委員他今天問的很多都是目前偵查中的個案那當時我說我們可能我們本委員會將來是不是要討論一下我們在個人每個人質詢的時候到底可不可以去討論偵查中的個案我們大家一個共識出來主席那我們具體請問那第二個就是說今天的議題是這樣既然國人有非常多人有質疑的話那我們就拿出來討論\n\n10\n00:03:23,117 --> 00:03:30,866\n那我排這個案子並不是下定論所以我今天就針對目前如果今天等一下接下來正式開始我就針對這個有關目前在偵辦中的這些罷免案的幽靈連署的這些狀況\n\n11\n00:03:39,292 --> 00:03:43,854\n我覺得就通案去討論我就是要理解就是主席認為說目前偵辦的這個幽靈連署案這個是現在的狀況是有為恪守行政中立你認為現在是有沒有秉持公正執法的情形所以你才排這個專案報告動員了\n\n12\n00:04:03,041 --> 00:04:17,744\n應該是這樣子啦我的理解沒有沒有你的理解錯誤了齁我不對任何一個事情下定論我們今天是國人有這個疑慮我們就拿到委員會來討論我不會說行政機關就是不中立我沒有下過這個定論今天陣仗其實說起來是很大啦針對這個問題你動員我們的五院你動員的四院大家坐在這裡來討論這個問題因為立法院我們自己在這裡動員立法院在這裡開會\n\n13\n00:04:30,406 --> 00:04:41,230\n然後這個行政院行政院有這個中選會有法務部有內政部有人事行政總局然後司法院也來考試院又有權序部又有公務人員訪訊會\n\n14\n00:04:43,007 --> 00:05:08,860\n五院動員的四院那這個二級機關這個這麼多二級機關然後到指定三級機關聯政署、調查局、警政署都要來所以今天這個是相當陣仗相當大所以我要了解說到底到底主席是怎麼樣設定這案子好謝謝沈委員那我先開始好不好那個民主國家行政中立是根本所以美國總統跟國務院他們常常對白你不用再闡述了我現在了解你的想法了\n\n15\n00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:37,477\n它是民主國家根本這是一件非常重要的事情所以我們今天會請各院過來好主席我了解你的想法好那我現在我要開始我的質詢好謝謝沈委員好那現在這樣子齁我們這樣子大概就整理出來我們就是了解啦齁就是說今天這個狀況主席是因為認為國人對於目前六十四這個六十四件的這個罷免案裡面的這些幽靈連署齁它是不是有\n\n16\n00:05:38,317 --> 00:05:57,918\n有它涉及的這些衛照文書跟各執法齁在這個整個偵辦過程中齁這個公務人員他有沒有秉持行政中立這個司法偵辦他有沒有公正執法大概主席關注的就是這個啦齁那這個部分所以我們就要針對這個主題我們就要一個一個來\n\n17\n00:05:59,159 --> 00:06:09,186\n這個問題我們今天又不是政論節目啦政論節目我可以講很多啦但是今天我們在立法院裡面我們就專題討論我們就抽絲剝繭一個一個問題來請教是不是先請這個司法院法務部這個部長是不是也請\n\n18\n00:06:23,498 --> 00:06:39,110\n這個我們就回到最原始的問題啦因為我發現這個所謂國人認為是因為最原始的問題的認知上面現在好像也有很大的歧義啊這個先請問訪問部長這個我們如果知道有犯罪的行為是不是應該要\n\n19\n00:06:40,464 --> 00:07:08,345\n是不是就是有知道有犯罪的行為我們法務部知道有犯罪的行為是不是就應該要偵辦對這個有犯罪的行為的話部分大小都要偵辦如果有犯罪行為部分大小都要偵辦嘛那至於怎麼偵辦偵辦你們要秉公處理這是後面的問題但是你知道犯罪行為你要偵辦嘛對不對那所以就回到這裡了這個幽靈連署到底是不是犯罪行為這個是一個犯罪行為是犯罪行為司法院要不要講一下這個\n\n20\n00:07:09,306 --> 00:07:37,916\n幽靈連署這是死亡者連署出現死亡者我們就通案來講這又是一個犯罪行為那就那個新修正那個刑罰法98條之二這個是新修正我知道在這個還沒修正之前的時候刑法就有刑法也有修正後刑法就有刑死衛照文書了解了解或者是有涉及各自41跟44條請上好那你們都認為但是其實他剛剛講說國人有疑慮所以國人有很多不同的講法例如\n\n21\n00:07:39,383 --> 00:08:03,554\n趙兆康就說連署抄名單這種行為不應該但是沒有嚴重到要關起來啊這就趙兆康講的戴世保說未照文書有這麼嚴重嗎這是國民黨戴世保講的那這個盧秀燕講說偵查幽靈連署你們剛剛講說偵查犯罪行為偵查幽靈連署是國家司法被濫用到了極致這是盧秀燕講的那這個這個\n\n22\n00:08:06,175 --> 00:08:23,415\n這個罷免民進黨立委的連署人朱磊他說黨安排黨員抄黨員名冊有錯嗎所以有這麼多人認知之所以會有剛剛這主席講說國人的認知就是因為他們前提很可能他們認為這個不是犯罪行為\n\n23\n00:08:25,069 --> 00:08:47,034\n所以他們才會覺得說這個司法不公這個是我第一個問題啦那如果不是如果他們認知是犯罪行為那再來就是才有後面講說偵辦偵辦是不是公平嘛對不對這兩個問題所以是犯罪行為剛剛有講剛剛我們這個司法院副局長講得非常清楚不管是修法前修法後他都是犯罪行為只是修法前\n\n24\n00:08:48,508 --> 00:09:14,103\n在這個今年2月18號修法之前他是適用這個刑法210條甚至還有一些個資法第41條對不對違反這個非公務機關收集個人資料的這個收集跟處理這個問題那修法之後當然更明確了更明確他就是就是未照連署未照連署他本身他就是就是犯罪的構成要件這個很清楚所以\n\n25\n00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:27,685\n所以我們得到第一個結論我們目前不管偵辦誰不管偵辦哪一個政黨不管偵辦哪一個公民偵辦他他未照聯署書罷免聯署書這個行為這個是應該要辦的因為他是犯罪行為對不對這是第一個前提但是\n\n26\n00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:58,810\n我想這個主席所說的國人有疑慮恐怕不只是這樣子國人有疑慮說你們有沒有不公平啦是不是執法有沒有不公啊你們有沒有恪守行政中立啦這個我想這是他們要指控的啦他們要指控說你們這個辦理辦難不辦律啦那這個部分可能就要請中選會了中選會\n\n27\n00:10:14,966 --> 00:10:41,628\n委員好我看到目前這個有關於我們這個死亡連署是司法機關之所以展開偵辦是因為我們中選被告發對不對有移送對有移送告發你們告發了多少案件41件41件你們告發41件是那41件41件裡面是不是你們都只告發國民黨對不對你們沒有告發民進黨沒有沒有都有\n\n28\n00:10:43,454 --> 00:11:10,587\n都有告發那為什麼說我們不公他們說你們是不是只告發要罷免民進黨立委的這些藍的是不是報告沒有我們都有都有告發嘛都有告發那是不是你們在告發裡面遞送救親你們看罷免民進黨的你們就看得比較嚴格罷免國民黨的你們檢查就比較鬆是你們自己檢查的嗎\n\n29\n00:11:11,547 --> 00:11:31,296\n報告委員那個是地方選委會查對的結果我們都是是地方選委會查不是你們中選會自己一個一個來對的所以你們因為你們中選會可惡嫌疑民進黨執政你們中選會你們故意挑這個要罷免民進黨的你們就看得很嚴格然後要罷免國民黨就隨便看一看勾一勾\n\n30\n00:11:32,056 --> 00:11:59,648\n就不是喔是地方選委會所以王宏威要罷免王宏威委員的他裡面零個死亡連署不是你們連看都不看你們是蔣萬安所任命的選委會他們去查的是不是是地方的選委會跟他們的互證機關比對的嘛對不對跟中選會沒有關係比對的結果跟中選會中選會只是把他們比對來的結果拿來然後該告發該移送的就對就經過我們委員會審議移送\n\n31\n00:12:01,989 --> 00:12:13,678\n那這樣子聽起來第一你們藍綠都有移送而且就照完全就照地方各地方的選委會自己他們比對出來結果所以今天說說這個這個我看一下齁這個這個數據資料齁今天說這個罷免要罷免張宏祿的這個他的死亡連署比例高達20%\n\n32\n00:12:32,763 --> 00:13:01,530\n這不是你們說的這個是侯友宜任命的新北市選委會跟他們侯友宜的新北市的戶政事務所比對出來所以不是你們在陷害不是你們行政不公在故意在搞不是你們辦藍不辦綠這個是新北市政府的選委會跟他們的戶政事務所比對出來的嘛百分之二十的意思是什麼是每五個人裡面就有一個人\n\n33\n00:13:03,151 --> 00:13:26,867\n每五張連署處裡面就有一張這個拿石頭丟每五個人丟就丟到一個人耶這樣子的死亡連署規模耶這個跟這個百分之0.3是一千個人裡面才三個人有出現三份死亡連署跟一百份裡面出現二十份死亡連署這嚴重程度當然不一樣吧\n\n34\n00:13:28,362 --> 00:13:46,367\n這個好我現在中選會我先問那我就了解了原來不是我想說你們中選會太混蛋了這民進黨執政下的中選會只移送國民黨不移送民進黨而且你們查的時候就故意只把國民黨查嚴一點把民進黨查鬆一點原來不是原來是地方的選委會查的好請問\n\n35\n00:13:52,136 --> 00:14:16,382\n那這個這個再請問鄭部長齁這個剛剛我我大概已經提到了我這個表齁表上面我看到我們這個這個目前死亡連署的比例齁因為辦藍不帶不辦綠剛剛我現在先澄清了啦齁就辦就辦案而言這個這個告發是中選會告發只要中選會有告發你們就必須要辦啦不管他是藍綠對不對是只要有告發你們就必須要辦嘛齁啊但是這個這個\n\n36\n00:14:19,728 --> 00:14:38,797\n國人認為剛剛主席講的國人有人認為不公可能是因為為什麼因為你們看起來這個現在有發動搜索的有這個看起來都是罷免民進黨的罷免國民黨的他也有也有這個死亡連署為什麼你們\n\n37\n00:14:40,771 --> 00:14:49,557\n現在沒有看到你們有發動這種搜索這個強度或者是甚至收押這樣子的強制處分都沒有\n\n38\n00:14:51,189 --> 00:15:04,300\n那這個是因為跟跟他的這個這個這個未照未照的嫌疑他的比例有沒有關係關聯跟委員報告齁那個我們正辦爹士凱客觀中立的立場完全是憑證據來認定這個犯罪的一個事實齁那這個這個\n\n39\n00:15:10,064 --> 00:15:27,925\n至於要採取什麼樣的偵查行動每個案件的一個情況不一樣那我們是尊重我也沒辦法去過問這個檢官如何去做一個偵辦那這個個案的一個情況的證據要不要搜索要不要要不要傳犯這個完全是由檢察機關在做一個個案的一個\n\n40\n00:15:28,886 --> 00:15:49,117\n一個偵查的一個對就是個案偵查他要怎麼樣保全證據他要怎麼樣發現真實這個在承辦的檢察官由他來決定對不對這個是決定沒有黨派決定沒有預設而且這樣子啦我這樣問你啦今天有一間30年老店經過30年今天出了一個滷肉飯結果裡面出現一隻蟑螂然後隔壁有一間餐廳\n\n41\n00:15:53,069 --> 00:16:17,749\n他今天出了十份餐十份餐裡面有兩份蟑螂出了一百份餐裡面出了二十隻蟑螂有二十份餐裡面出蟑螂這個衛生局去說啊都一樣我全部勒令你停業一個月這樣是公平嗎這當然是我舉這個例子意思就是說同樣的犯罪形態但是他在犯罪比例上面他確實會影響我們偵辦的方式會我們保全證據的手法\n\n42\n00:16:21,786 --> 00:16:26,421\n跟我們發現真實的方式會有所不同這沒有什麼不對啊這有什麼不對\n\n43\n00:16:27,895 --> 00:16:54,664\n你今天說抓到詐騙集團騙了幾億的詐騙集團集團的這個首領跑出來講說我路邊看到剛剛那個老頭子在那邊騙那個說他沒錢坐車回台北在那邊騙一百塊一百塊要坐車回台北你們為什麼沒有把他們全部羈押為什麼沒有把他羈押他只羈押我我要抗議我426要出來總統府這賴清德混蛋只辦我詐騙集團不辦這個詐騙老人\n\n44\n00:16:58,305 --> 00:17:14,845\n就是這樣子為什麼有組織犯罪條例照理講犯罪是罪行法定主義一罪一罰你做了什麼犯罪行為你這個個人要負擔就好為什麼有所謂組織犯罪條例他的立法精神就是說你同樣這是你的犯罪形態如果你是組織化的\n\n45\n00:17:16,496 --> 00:17:38,662\n你對社會的法益危害就不只是你個別犯罪危害的法益而已對不對部長對這個環節有涉及到犯罪檢測員辦如果說不能辦某種犯罪而不能辦那種犯罪那這樣的話就是一個選擇性的辦案嘛所以這個是不行的好我的時間超過了啦我要簡單講第一個就是我們確認衛照連署到底是不是犯罪行為如果是\n\n46\n00:17:39,582 --> 00:17:54,175\n那4.26我就不知道4.26大家到總統府前面是要支持我們要支持偽造文書,我們要支持違反個資法這個我就不是很理解了那再來到底有沒有這個藍綠這個我剛剛講很清楚了\n\n47\n00:18:00,523 --> 00:18:28,385\n那最後實在也許或者我比較奴頓我沒有辦法把這個偽造文書偽造聯署書我比較我比較奴頓我沒有辦法偽造聯署書是犯罪行為這件事情講得清楚那我們就來聽聽我們這個立法院的幕府陳忠看他怎麼看他來指示給我們指點指點說到底到底這個這個聯署這個偽造聯署書到底是不是犯罪行為\n\n48\n00:18:35,148 --> 00:18:58,349\n不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事所有426要站到凱達園大道的人要想一想不要以為偽造聯署出事沒有事的好以上謝謝那也歡迎省委員426一起來參加就可以了解我們在講的不是\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10726\t13949\t主席這不知道哪個委員的手機放在這喔 好\n17063\t35117\t主席,我想剛才盧委員的質詢,他一開始也是針對我們這個主題詢問主席的這跟我也不約而同,我跟他又不熟,也不同黨,但是我們同樣對今天的這個主題都有一些問題所以我這也是先請教一下主席\n36398\t61501\t我們今天的主題是說這個選舉罷免程序中這就主題是選舉罷免程序那在這個程序裡面呢如何落實幾種人呢公務人員含政務官司法人員是第二個選務人員是第三個三種人幹什麼呢落實什麼呢他們能不能恪守行政中立秉持公正執法\n62700\t82968\t誤偏頗這是今天的主題嘛對不對我大概因為這個主題這麼長齁我這個比較奴頓我就必須要把它拆解文法齁才理解主詞是什麼授詞是什麼那這樣子如果今天是這個主題的話齁那如果問題是說選舉罷免程序中是否應該\n85166\t98114\t這些人 是否應該恪守行政中立 秉持公正執法 勿偏頗我想這答案就是 YES 是的 當然不用說就是所以其實沒有什麼好討論\n99625\t118958\t但是沒什麼好討論我想主席為什麼也會把它列成一個專案報告咧一個專題報告那一定是你有認為說現在有一些狀況現在目前有一些狀況你認為沒有落實沒有這個恪守行政中立目前有一些狀況他沒有秉持公正執法所以你認為說現在的狀況有這種問題才排這個案子嘛對不對\n123581\t150432\t那就是我也不曉得主席個人主觀認為現在有什麼樣的狀況是不符合是沒有恪守行政中立那我需要跟委員報告嗎你如果要報告我時間都還沒開始對沒有開始跟委員報告就是說因為現在呢有行政不中立這個東西當然啦就是說如果活在自己的同溫層跟泡泡圈裡面會覺得哪有行政不中立但是呢行政不中立這個確實是國人有非常多的質疑\n151212\t171977\t那當然在特定媒體是不會看到但在非特定媒體的時候會有我怕我的質詢離題我也怕說被說我現在在討論哪一個案子就變成討論個案所以我必須了解主席你到底你今天關心的到底是什麼案子什麼狀況它是現在是沒有行政中立現在是沒有公正執法有關是否討論個案部分\n174558\t202296\t在九點多的時候 那時候我們曾經有討論過一次只是可能各位委員當時沒有在場當時我就問到因為第一位的陳培武委員他今天問的很多都是目前偵查中的個案那當時我說我們可能我們本委員會將來是不是要討論一下我們在個人每個人質詢的時候到底可不可以去討論偵查中的個案我們大家一個共識出來主席那我們具體請問那第二個就是說今天的議題是這樣既然國人有非常多人有質疑的話那我們就拿出來討論\n203117\t210866\t那我排這個案子並不是下定論所以我今天就針對目前如果今天等一下接下來正式開始我就針對這個有關目前在偵辦中的這些罷免案的幽靈連署的這些狀況\n219292\t223854\t我覺得就通案去討論我就是要理解就是主席認為說目前偵辦的這個幽靈連署案這個是現在的狀況是有為恪守行政中立你認為現在是有沒有秉持公正執法的情形所以你才排這個專案報告動員了\n243041\t257744\t應該是這樣子啦我的理解沒有沒有 你的理解錯誤了齁我不對任何一個事情下定論我們今天是國人有這個疑慮我們就拿到委員會來討論我不會說行政機關就是不中立我沒有下過這個定論今天陣仗其實說起來是很大啦針對這個問題你動員我們的五院 你動員的四院大家坐在這裡來討論這個問題因為立法院我們自己在這裡動員立法院在這裡開會\n270406\t281230\t然後這個行政院行政院有這個中選會有法務部有內政部有人事行政總局然後司法院也來考試院又有權序部又有公務人員訪訊會\n283007\t308860\t五院動員的四院那這個二級機關這個這麼多二級機關然後到指定三級機關聯政署、調查局、警政署都要來所以今天這個是相當陣仗相當大所以我要了解說到底到底主席是怎麼樣設定這案子好 謝謝沈委員那我先開始 好不好那個民主國家行政中立是根本所以美國總統跟國務院他們常常對白你不用再闡述了我現在了解你的想法了\n309440\t337477\t它是民主國家根本這是一件非常重要的事情所以我們今天會請各院過來好主席我了解你的想法好那我現在我要開始我的質詢好謝謝沈委員好那現在這樣子齁我們這樣子大概就整理出來我們就是了解啦齁就是說今天這個狀況主席是因為認為國人對於目前六十四這個六十四件的這個罷免案裡面的這些幽靈連署齁它是不是有\n338317\t357918\t有它涉及的這些衛照文書跟各執法齁在這個整個偵辦過程中齁這個公務人員他有沒有秉持行政中立這個司法偵辦他有沒有公正執法大概主席關注的就是這個啦齁那這個部分所以我們就要針對這個主題我們就要一個一個來\n359159\t369186\t這個問題我們今天又不是政論節目啦政論節目我可以講很多啦但是今天我們在立法院裡面我們就專題討論我們就抽絲剝繭一個一個問題來請教是不是先請這個司法院法務部這個部長是不是也請\n383498\t399110\t這個我們就回到最原始的問題啦因為我發現這個所謂國人認為是因為最原始的問題的認知上面現在好像也有很大的歧義啊這個先請問訪問部長這個我們如果知道有犯罪的行為是不是應該要\n400464\t428345\t是不是就是有知道有犯罪的行為我們法務部知道有犯罪的行為是不是就應該要偵辦對這個有犯罪的行為的話部分大小都要偵辦如果有犯罪行為部分大小都要偵辦嘛那至於怎麼偵辦偵辦你們要秉公處理這是後面的問題但是你知道犯罪行為你要偵辦嘛對不對那所以就回到這裡了這個幽靈連署到底是不是犯罪行為這個是一個犯罪行為是犯罪行為司法院要不要講一下這個\n429306\t457916\t幽靈連署這是死亡者連署出現死亡者我們就通案來講這又是一個犯罪行為那就那個新修正那個刑罰法98條之二這個是新修正我知道在這個還沒修正之前的時候刑法就有刑法也有 修正後刑法就有刑死衛照文書 了解了解或者是有涉及各自41跟44條 請上好 那你們都認為但是其實他剛剛講說國人有疑慮所以國人有很多不同的講法例如\n459383\t483554\t趙兆康就說 連署抄名單這種行為不應該但是沒有嚴重到要關起來啊這就趙兆康講的戴世保說 未照文書有這麼嚴重嗎這是國民黨戴世保講的那這個盧秀燕講說 偵查幽靈連署你們剛剛講說偵查犯罪行為偵查幽靈連署是國家司法被濫用到了極致這是盧秀燕講的那這個 這個\n486175\t503415\t這個罷免民進黨立委的連署人朱磊他說黨安排黨員抄黨員名冊有錯嗎所以有這麼多人認知之所以會有剛剛這主席講說國人的認知就是因為他們前提很可能他們認為這個不是犯罪行為\n505069\t527034\t所以他們才會覺得說這個司法不公這個是我第一個問題啦那如果不是 如果他們認知是犯罪行為那再來就是才有後面講說偵辦偵辦是不是公平嘛 對不對這兩個問題所以是犯罪行為剛剛有講剛剛我們這個司法院副局長講得非常清楚不管是修法前修法後他都是犯罪行為只是修法前\n528508\t554103\t在這個今年2月18號修法之前他是適用這個刑法210條甚至還有一些個資法第41條對不對違反這個非公務機關收集個人資料的這個收集跟處理這個問題那修法之後當然更明確了更明確他就是就是未照連署未照連署他本身他就是就是犯罪的構成要件這個很清楚所以\n556960\t567685\t所以我們得到第一個結論我們目前不管偵辦誰不管偵辦哪一個政黨不管偵辦哪一個公民偵辦他他未照聯署書罷免聯署書這個行為這個是應該要辦的因為他是犯罪行為對不對這是第一個前提但是\n580919\t598810\t我想這個主席所說的國人有疑慮恐怕不只是這樣子國人有疑慮說你們有沒有不公平啦是不是執法有沒有不公啊你們有沒有恪守行政中立啦這個我想這是他們要指控的啦他們要指控說你們這個辦理辦難不辦律啦那這個部分可能就要請中選會了中選會\n614966\t641628\t委員好我看到目前這個有關於我們這個死亡連署是司法機關之所以展開偵辦是因為我們中選被告發對不對有移送對有移送告發你們告發了多少案件41件41件你們告發41件是那41件41件裡面是不是你們都只告發國民黨對不對你們沒有告發民進黨沒有沒有都有\n643454\t670587\t都有告發那為什麼說我們不公他們說你們是不是只告發要罷免民進黨立委的這些藍的是不是報告沒有 我們都有都有告發嘛 都有告發那是不是你們在告發裡面遞送救親你們看罷免民進黨的你們就看得比較嚴格罷免國民黨的你們檢查就比較鬆是你們自己檢查的嗎\n671547\t691296\t報告委員那個是地方選委會查對的結果我們都是是地方選委會查不是你們中選會自己一個一個來對的所以你們因為你們中選會可惡嫌疑民進黨執政你們中選會你們故意挑這個要罷免民進黨的你們就看得很嚴格然後要罷免國民黨就隨便看一看勾一勾\n692056\t719648\t就不是喔 是地方選委會所以王宏威要罷免王宏威委員的他裡面零個死亡連署不是你們連看都不看你們是蔣萬安所任命的選委會他們去查的是不是是地方的選委會跟他們的互證機關比對的嘛 對不對跟中選會沒有關係比對的結果跟中選會中選會只是把他們比對來的結果拿來然後該告發該移送的就對 就經過我們委員會審議移送\n721989\t733678\t那這樣子聽起來第一你們藍綠都有移送而且就照完全就照地方各地方的選委會自己他們比對出來結果所以今天說說這個這個我看一下齁這個這個數據資料齁今天說這個罷免要罷免張宏祿的這個他的死亡連署比例高達20%\n752763\t781530\t這不是你們說的 這個是侯友宜任命的新北市選委會跟他們侯友宜的新北市的戶政事務所比對出來所以不是你們在陷害 不是你們行政不公在故意在搞不是你們辦藍不辦綠這個是新北市政府的選委會跟他們的戶政事務所比對出來的嘛百分之二十的意思是什麼是每五個人裡面就有一個人\n783151\t806867\t每五張連署處裡面就有一張這個拿石頭丟每五個人丟就丟到一個人耶這樣子的死亡連署規模耶這個跟這個百分之0.3是一千個人裡面才三個人有出現三份死亡連署跟一百份裡面出現二十份死亡連署這嚴重程度當然不一樣吧\n808362\t826367\t這個好我現在中選會我先問那我就了解了原來不是我想說你們中選會太混蛋了這民進黨執政下的中選會只移送國民黨不移送民進黨而且你們查的時候就故意只把國民黨查嚴一點把民進黨查鬆一點原來不是原來是地方的選委會查的好請問\n832136\t856382\t那這個這個再請問鄭部長齁這個剛剛我我大概已經提到了我這個表齁表上面我看到我們這個這個目前死亡連署的比例齁因為辦藍不帶不辦綠剛剛我現在先澄清了啦齁就辦就辦案而言這個這個告發是中選會告發只要中選會有告發你們就必須要辦啦不管他是藍綠對不對是只要有告發你們就必須要辦嘛齁啊但是這個這個\n859728\t878797\t國人認為 剛剛主席講的國人有人認為不公可能是因為為什麼 因為你們看起來這個現在有發動搜索的有這個看起來都是罷免民進黨的罷免國民黨的他也有也有這個死亡連署 為什麼你們\n880771\t889557\t現在沒有看到你們有發動這種搜索這個強度或者是甚至收押這樣子的強制處分都沒有\n891189\t904300\t那這個是因為跟跟他的這個這個這個未照未照的嫌疑他的比例有沒有關係關聯跟委員報告齁那個我們正辦爹士凱客觀中立的立場完全是憑證據來認定這個犯罪的一個事實齁那這個這個\n910064\t927925\t至於要採取什麼樣的偵查行動每個案件的一個情況不一樣那我們是尊重我也沒辦法去過問這個檢官如何去做一個偵辦那這個個案的一個情況的證據要不要搜索要不要要不要傳犯這個完全是由檢察機關在做一個個案的一個\n928886\t949117\t一個偵查的一個對 就是個案偵查 他要怎麼樣保全證據他要怎麼樣發現真實 這個在承辦的檢察官由他來決定對不對這個是決定沒有黨派 決定沒有預設而且這樣子啦 我這樣問你啦今天有一間30年老店 經過30年今天出了一個滷肉飯 結果裡面出現一隻蟑螂然後隔壁有一間餐廳\n953069\t977749\t他今天出了十份餐十份餐裡面有兩份蟑螂出了一百份餐裡面出了二十隻蟑螂有二十份餐裡面出蟑螂這個衛生局去說啊都一樣我全部勒令你停業一個月這樣是公平嗎這當然是我舉這個例子意思就是說同樣的犯罪形態但是他在犯罪比例上面他確實會影響我們偵辦的方式會我們保全證據的手法\n981786\t986421\t跟我們發現真實的方式會有所不同這沒有什麼不對啊這有什麼不對\n987895\t1014664\t你今天說抓到詐騙集團騙了幾億的詐騙集團集團的這個首領跑出來講說我路邊看到剛剛那個老頭子在那邊騙那個說他沒錢坐車回台北在那邊騙一百塊一百塊要坐車回台北你們為什麼沒有把他們全部羈押為什麼沒有把他羈押他只羈押我我要抗議我426要出來總統府這賴清德混蛋只辦我詐騙集團不辦這個詐騙老人\n1018305\t1034845\t就是這樣子為什麼有組織犯罪條例照理講犯罪是罪行法定主義一罪一罰你做了什麼犯罪行為你這個個人要負擔就好為什麼有所謂組織犯罪條例他的立法精神就是說你同樣這是你的犯罪形態如果你是組織化的\n1036496\t1058662\t你對社會的法益危害就不只是你個別犯罪危害的法益而已對不對 部長對 這個環節有涉及到犯罪檢測員辦如果說不能辦某種犯罪而不能辦那種犯罪那這樣的話就是一個選擇性的辦案嘛所以這個是不行的好 我的時間超過了啦我要簡單講第一個就是我們確認衛照連署到底是不是犯罪行為如果是\n1059582\t1074175\t那4.26我就不知道4.26大家到總統府前面是要支持我們要支持偽造文書,我們要支持違反個資法這個我就不是很理解了那再來到底有沒有這個藍綠這個我剛剛講很清楚了\n1080523\t1108385\t那最後實在也許或者我比較奴頓我沒有辦法把這個偽造文書偽造聯署書我比較我比較奴頓我沒有辦法偽造聯署書是犯罪行為這件事情講得清楚那我們就來聽聽我們這個立法院的幕府陳忠看他怎麼看他來指示給我們指點指點說到底到底這個這個聯署這個偽造聯署書到底是不是犯罪行為\n1115148\t1138349\t不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事所有426要站到凱達園大道的人要想一想不要以為偽造聯署出事沒有事的好 以上謝謝 那也歡迎省委員426一起來參加就可以了解我們在講的不是\n","txt":"主席這不知道哪個委員的手機放在這喔 好\n主席,我想剛才盧委員的質詢,他一開始也是針對我們這個主題詢問主席的這跟我也不約而同,我跟他又不熟,也不同黨,但是我們同樣對今天的這個主題都有一些問題所以我這也是先請教一下主席\n我們今天的主題是說這個選舉罷免程序中這就主題是選舉罷免程序那在這個程序裡面呢如何落實幾種人呢公務人員含政務官司法人員是第二個選務人員是第三個三種人幹什麼呢落實什麼呢他們能不能恪守行政中立秉持公正執法\n誤偏頗這是今天的主題嘛對不對我大概因為這個主題這麼長齁我這個比較奴頓我就必須要把它拆解文法齁才理解主詞是什麼授詞是什麼那這樣子如果今天是這個主題的話齁那如果問題是說選舉罷免程序中是否應該\n這些人 是否應該恪守行政中立 秉持公正執法 勿偏頗我想這答案就是 YES 是的 當然不用說就是所以其實沒有什麼好討論\n但是沒什麼好討論我想主席為什麼也會把它列成一個專案報告咧一個專題報告那一定是你有認為說現在有一些狀況現在目前有一些狀況你認為沒有落實沒有這個恪守行政中立目前有一些狀況他沒有秉持公正執法所以你認為說現在的狀況有這種問題才排這個案子嘛對不對\n那就是我也不曉得主席個人主觀認為現在有什麼樣的狀況是不符合是沒有恪守行政中立那我需要跟委員報告嗎你如果要報告我時間都還沒開始對沒有開始跟委員報告就是說因為現在呢有行政不中立這個東西當然啦就是說如果活在自己的同溫層跟泡泡圈裡面會覺得哪有行政不中立但是呢行政不中立這個確實是國人有非常多的質疑\n那當然在特定媒體是不會看到但在非特定媒體的時候會有我怕我的質詢離題我也怕說被說我現在在討論哪一個案子就變成討論個案所以我必須了解主席你到底你今天關心的到底是什麼案子什麼狀況它是現在是沒有行政中立現在是沒有公正執法有關是否討論個案部分\n在九點多的時候 那時候我們曾經有討論過一次只是可能各位委員當時沒有在場當時我就問到因為第一位的陳培武委員他今天問的很多都是目前偵查中的個案那當時我說我們可能我們本委員會將來是不是要討論一下我們在個人每個人質詢的時候到底可不可以去討論偵查中的個案我們大家一個共識出來主席那我們具體請問那第二個就是說今天的議題是這樣既然國人有非常多人有質疑的話那我們就拿出來討論\n那我排這個案子並不是下定論所以我今天就針對目前如果今天等一下接下來正式開始我就針對這個有關目前在偵辦中的這些罷免案的幽靈連署的這些狀況\n我覺得就通案去討論我就是要理解就是主席認為說目前偵辦的這個幽靈連署案這個是現在的狀況是有為恪守行政中立你認為現在是有沒有秉持公正執法的情形所以你才排這個專案報告動員了\n應該是這樣子啦我的理解沒有沒有 你的理解錯誤了齁我不對任何一個事情下定論我們今天是國人有這個疑慮我們就拿到委員會來討論我不會說行政機關就是不中立我沒有下過這個定論今天陣仗其實說起來是很大啦針對這個問題你動員我們的五院 你動員的四院大家坐在這裡來討論這個問題因為立法院我們自己在這裡動員立法院在這裡開會\n然後這個行政院行政院有這個中選會有法務部有內政部有人事行政總局然後司法院也來考試院又有權序部又有公務人員訪訊會\n五院動員的四院那這個二級機關這個這麼多二級機關然後到指定三級機關聯政署、調查局、警政署都要來所以今天這個是相當陣仗相當大所以我要了解說到底到底主席是怎麼樣設定這案子好 謝謝沈委員那我先開始 好不好那個民主國家行政中立是根本所以美國總統跟國務院他們常常對白你不用再闡述了我現在了解你的想法了\n它是民主國家根本這是一件非常重要的事情所以我們今天會請各院過來好主席我了解你的想法好那我現在我要開始我的質詢好謝謝沈委員好那現在這樣子齁我們這樣子大概就整理出來我們就是了解啦齁就是說今天這個狀況主席是因為認為國人對於目前六十四這個六十四件的這個罷免案裡面的這些幽靈連署齁它是不是有\n有它涉及的這些衛照文書跟各執法齁在這個整個偵辦過程中齁這個公務人員他有沒有秉持行政中立這個司法偵辦他有沒有公正執法大概主席關注的就是這個啦齁那這個部分所以我們就要針對這個主題我們就要一個一個來\n這個問題我們今天又不是政論節目啦政論節目我可以講很多啦但是今天我們在立法院裡面我們就專題討論我們就抽絲剝繭一個一個問題來請教是不是先請這個司法院法務部這個部長是不是也請\n這個我們就回到最原始的問題啦因為我發現這個所謂國人認為是因為最原始的問題的認知上面現在好像也有很大的歧義啊這個先請問訪問部長這個我們如果知道有犯罪的行為是不是應該要\n是不是就是有知道有犯罪的行為我們法務部知道有犯罪的行為是不是就應該要偵辦對這個有犯罪的行為的話部分大小都要偵辦如果有犯罪行為部分大小都要偵辦嘛那至於怎麼偵辦偵辦你們要秉公處理這是後面的問題但是你知道犯罪行為你要偵辦嘛對不對那所以就回到這裡了這個幽靈連署到底是不是犯罪行為這個是一個犯罪行為是犯罪行為司法院要不要講一下這個\n幽靈連署這是死亡者連署出現死亡者我們就通案來講這又是一個犯罪行為那就那個新修正那個刑罰法98條之二這個是新修正我知道在這個還沒修正之前的時候刑法就有刑法也有 修正後刑法就有刑死衛照文書 了解了解或者是有涉及各自41跟44條 請上好 那你們都認為但是其實他剛剛講說國人有疑慮所以國人有很多不同的講法例如\n趙兆康就說 連署抄名單這種行為不應該但是沒有嚴重到要關起來啊這就趙兆康講的戴世保說 未照文書有這麼嚴重嗎這是國民黨戴世保講的那這個盧秀燕講說 偵查幽靈連署你們剛剛講說偵查犯罪行為偵查幽靈連署是國家司法被濫用到了極致這是盧秀燕講的那這個 這個\n這個罷免民進黨立委的連署人朱磊他說黨安排黨員抄黨員名冊有錯嗎所以有這麼多人認知之所以會有剛剛這主席講說國人的認知就是因為他們前提很可能他們認為這個不是犯罪行為\n所以他們才會覺得說這個司法不公這個是我第一個問題啦那如果不是 如果他們認知是犯罪行為那再來就是才有後面講說偵辦偵辦是不是公平嘛 對不對這兩個問題所以是犯罪行為剛剛有講剛剛我們這個司法院副局長講得非常清楚不管是修法前修法後他都是犯罪行為只是修法前\n在這個今年2月18號修法之前他是適用這個刑法210條甚至還有一些個資法第41條對不對違反這個非公務機關收集個人資料的這個收集跟處理這個問題那修法之後當然更明確了更明確他就是就是未照連署未照連署他本身他就是就是犯罪的構成要件這個很清楚所以\n所以我們得到第一個結論我們目前不管偵辦誰不管偵辦哪一個政黨不管偵辦哪一個公民偵辦他他未照聯署書罷免聯署書這個行為這個是應該要辦的因為他是犯罪行為對不對這是第一個前提但是\n我想這個主席所說的國人有疑慮恐怕不只是這樣子國人有疑慮說你們有沒有不公平啦是不是執法有沒有不公啊你們有沒有恪守行政中立啦這個我想這是他們要指控的啦他們要指控說你們這個辦理辦難不辦律啦那這個部分可能就要請中選會了中選會\n委員好我看到目前這個有關於我們這個死亡連署是司法機關之所以展開偵辦是因為我們中選被告發對不對有移送對有移送告發你們告發了多少案件41件41件你們告發41件是那41件41件裡面是不是你們都只告發國民黨對不對你們沒有告發民進黨沒有沒有都有\n都有告發那為什麼說我們不公他們說你們是不是只告發要罷免民進黨立委的這些藍的是不是報告沒有 我們都有都有告發嘛 都有告發那是不是你們在告發裡面遞送救親你們看罷免民進黨的你們就看得比較嚴格罷免國民黨的你們檢查就比較鬆是你們自己檢查的嗎\n報告委員那個是地方選委會查對的結果我們都是是地方選委會查不是你們中選會自己一個一個來對的所以你們因為你們中選會可惡嫌疑民進黨執政你們中選會你們故意挑這個要罷免民進黨的你們就看得很嚴格然後要罷免國民黨就隨便看一看勾一勾\n就不是喔 是地方選委會所以王宏威要罷免王宏威委員的他裡面零個死亡連署不是你們連看都不看你們是蔣萬安所任命的選委會他們去查的是不是是地方的選委會跟他們的互證機關比對的嘛 對不對跟中選會沒有關係比對的結果跟中選會中選會只是把他們比對來的結果拿來然後該告發該移送的就對 就經過我們委員會審議移送\n那這樣子聽起來第一你們藍綠都有移送而且就照完全就照地方各地方的選委會自己他們比對出來結果所以今天說說這個這個我看一下齁這個這個數據資料齁今天說這個罷免要罷免張宏祿的這個他的死亡連署比例高達20%\n這不是你們說的 這個是侯友宜任命的新北市選委會跟他們侯友宜的新北市的戶政事務所比對出來所以不是你們在陷害 不是你們行政不公在故意在搞不是你們辦藍不辦綠這個是新北市政府的選委會跟他們的戶政事務所比對出來的嘛百分之二十的意思是什麼是每五個人裡面就有一個人\n每五張連署處裡面就有一張這個拿石頭丟每五個人丟就丟到一個人耶這樣子的死亡連署規模耶這個跟這個百分之0.3是一千個人裡面才三個人有出現三份死亡連署跟一百份裡面出現二十份死亡連署這嚴重程度當然不一樣吧\n這個好我現在中選會我先問那我就了解了原來不是我想說你們中選會太混蛋了這民進黨執政下的中選會只移送國民黨不移送民進黨而且你們查的時候就故意只把國民黨查嚴一點把民進黨查鬆一點原來不是原來是地方的選委會查的好請問\n那這個這個再請問鄭部長齁這個剛剛我我大概已經提到了我這個表齁表上面我看到我們這個這個目前死亡連署的比例齁因為辦藍不帶不辦綠剛剛我現在先澄清了啦齁就辦就辦案而言這個這個告發是中選會告發只要中選會有告發你們就必須要辦啦不管他是藍綠對不對是只要有告發你們就必須要辦嘛齁啊但是這個這個\n國人認為 剛剛主席講的國人有人認為不公可能是因為為什麼 因為你們看起來這個現在有發動搜索的有這個看起來都是罷免民進黨的罷免國民黨的他也有也有這個死亡連署 為什麼你們\n現在沒有看到你們有發動這種搜索這個強度或者是甚至收押這樣子的強制處分都沒有\n那這個是因為跟跟他的這個這個這個未照未照的嫌疑他的比例有沒有關係關聯跟委員報告齁那個我們正辦爹士凱客觀中立的立場完全是憑證據來認定這個犯罪的一個事實齁那這個這個\n至於要採取什麼樣的偵查行動每個案件的一個情況不一樣那我們是尊重我也沒辦法去過問這個檢官如何去做一個偵辦那這個個案的一個情況的證據要不要搜索要不要要不要傳犯這個完全是由檢察機關在做一個個案的一個\n一個偵查的一個對 就是個案偵查 他要怎麼樣保全證據他要怎麼樣發現真實 這個在承辦的檢察官由他來決定對不對這個是決定沒有黨派 決定沒有預設而且這樣子啦 我這樣問你啦今天有一間30年老店 經過30年今天出了一個滷肉飯 結果裡面出現一隻蟑螂然後隔壁有一間餐廳\n他今天出了十份餐十份餐裡面有兩份蟑螂出了一百份餐裡面出了二十隻蟑螂有二十份餐裡面出蟑螂這個衛生局去說啊都一樣我全部勒令你停業一個月這樣是公平嗎這當然是我舉這個例子意思就是說同樣的犯罪形態但是他在犯罪比例上面他確實會影響我們偵辦的方式會我們保全證據的手法\n跟我們發現真實的方式會有所不同這沒有什麼不對啊這有什麼不對\n你今天說抓到詐騙集團騙了幾億的詐騙集團集團的這個首領跑出來講說我路邊看到剛剛那個老頭子在那邊騙那個說他沒錢坐車回台北在那邊騙一百塊一百塊要坐車回台北你們為什麼沒有把他們全部羈押為什麼沒有把他羈押他只羈押我我要抗議我426要出來總統府這賴清德混蛋只辦我詐騙集團不辦這個詐騙老人\n就是這樣子為什麼有組織犯罪條例照理講犯罪是罪行法定主義一罪一罰你做了什麼犯罪行為你這個個人要負擔就好為什麼有所謂組織犯罪條例他的立法精神就是說你同樣這是你的犯罪形態如果你是組織化的\n你對社會的法益危害就不只是你個別犯罪危害的法益而已對不對 部長對 這個環節有涉及到犯罪檢測員辦如果說不能辦某種犯罪而不能辦那種犯罪那這樣的話就是一個選擇性的辦案嘛所以這個是不行的好 我的時間超過了啦我要簡單講第一個就是我們確認衛照連署到底是不是犯罪行為如果是\n那4.26我就不知道4.26大家到總統府前面是要支持我們要支持偽造文書,我們要支持違反個資法這個我就不是很理解了那再來到底有沒有這個藍綠這個我剛剛講很清楚了\n那最後實在也許或者我比較奴頓我沒有辦法把這個偽造文書偽造聯署書我比較我比較奴頓我沒有辦法偽造聯署書是犯罪行為這件事情講得清楚那我們就來聽聽我們這個立法院的幕府陳忠看他怎麼看他來指示給我們指點指點說到底到底這個這個聯署這個偽造聯署書到底是不是犯罪行為\n不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事所有426要站到凱達園大道的人要想一想不要以為偽造聯署出事沒有事的好 以上謝謝 那也歡迎省委員426一起來參加就可以了解我們在講的不是\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.726 --> 00:13.949\n主席這不知道哪個委員的手機放在這喔好\n\n00:17.063 --> 00:35.117\n主席,我想剛才盧委員的質詢,他一開始也是針對我們這個主題詢問主席的這跟我也不約而同,我跟他又不熟,也不同黨,但是我們同樣對今天的這個主題都有一些問題所以我這也是先請教一下主席\n\n00:36.398 --> 01:01.501\n我們今天的主題是說這個選舉罷免程序中這就主題是選舉罷免程序那在這個程序裡面呢如何落實幾種人呢公務人員含政務官司法人員是第二個選務人員是第三個三種人幹什麼呢落實什麼呢他們能不能恪守行政中立秉持公正執法\n\n01:02.700 --> 01:22.968\n誤偏頗這是今天的主題嘛對不對我大概因為這個主題這麼長齁我這個比較奴頓我就必須要把它拆解文法齁才理解主詞是什麼授詞是什麼那這樣子如果今天是這個主題的話齁那如果問題是說選舉罷免程序中是否應該\n\n01:25.166 --> 01:38.114\n這些人是否應該恪守行政中立秉持公正執法勿偏頗我想這答案就是YES是的當然不用說就是所以其實沒有什麼好討論\n\n01:39.625 --> 01:58.958\n但是沒什麼好討論我想主席為什麼也會把它列成一個專案報告咧一個專題報告那一定是你有認為說現在有一些狀況現在目前有一些狀況你認為沒有落實沒有這個恪守行政中立目前有一些狀況他沒有秉持公正執法所以你認為說現在的狀況有這種問題才排這個案子嘛對不對\n\n02:03.581 --> 02:30.432\n那就是我也不曉得主席個人主觀認為現在有什麼樣的狀況是不符合是沒有恪守行政中立那我需要跟委員報告嗎你如果要報告我時間都還沒開始對沒有開始跟委員報告就是說因為現在呢有行政不中立這個東西當然啦就是說如果活在自己的同溫層跟泡泡圈裡面會覺得哪有行政不中立但是呢行政不中立這個確實是國人有非常多的質疑\n\n02:31.212 --> 02:51.977\n那當然在特定媒體是不會看到但在非特定媒體的時候會有我怕我的質詢離題我也怕說被說我現在在討論哪一個案子就變成討論個案所以我必須了解主席你到底你今天關心的到底是什麼案子什麼狀況它是現在是沒有行政中立現在是沒有公正執法有關是否討論個案部分\n\n02:54.558 --> 03:22.296\n在九點多的時候那時候我們曾經有討論過一次只是可能各位委員當時沒有在場當時我就問到因為第一位的陳培武委員他今天問的很多都是目前偵查中的個案那當時我說我們可能我們本委員會將來是不是要討論一下我們在個人每個人質詢的時候到底可不可以去討論偵查中的個案我們大家一個共識出來主席那我們具體請問那第二個就是說今天的議題是這樣既然國人有非常多人有質疑的話那我們就拿出來討論\n\n03:23.117 --> 03:30.866\n那我排這個案子並不是下定論所以我今天就針對目前如果今天等一下接下來正式開始我就針對這個有關目前在偵辦中的這些罷免案的幽靈連署的這些狀況\n\n03:39.292 --> 03:43.854\n我覺得就通案去討論我就是要理解就是主席認為說目前偵辦的這個幽靈連署案這個是現在的狀況是有為恪守行政中立你認為現在是有沒有秉持公正執法的情形所以你才排這個專案報告動員了\n\n04:03.041 --> 04:17.744\n應該是這樣子啦我的理解沒有沒有你的理解錯誤了齁我不對任何一個事情下定論我們今天是國人有這個疑慮我們就拿到委員會來討論我不會說行政機關就是不中立我沒有下過這個定論今天陣仗其實說起來是很大啦針對這個問題你動員我們的五院你動員的四院大家坐在這裡來討論這個問題因為立法院我們自己在這裡動員立法院在這裡開會\n\n04:30.406 --> 04:41.230\n然後這個行政院行政院有這個中選會有法務部有內政部有人事行政總局然後司法院也來考試院又有權序部又有公務人員訪訊會\n\n04:43.007 --> 05:08.860\n五院動員的四院那這個二級機關這個這麼多二級機關然後到指定三級機關聯政署、調查局、警政署都要來所以今天這個是相當陣仗相當大所以我要了解說到底到底主席是怎麼樣設定這案子好謝謝沈委員那我先開始好不好那個民主國家行政中立是根本所以美國總統跟國務院他們常常對白你不用再闡述了我現在了解你的想法了\n\n05:09.440 --> 05:37.477\n它是民主國家根本這是一件非常重要的事情所以我們今天會請各院過來好主席我了解你的想法好那我現在我要開始我的質詢好謝謝沈委員好那現在這樣子齁我們這樣子大概就整理出來我們就是了解啦齁就是說今天這個狀況主席是因為認為國人對於目前六十四這個六十四件的這個罷免案裡面的這些幽靈連署齁它是不是有\n\n05:38.317 --> 05:57.918\n有它涉及的這些衛照文書跟各執法齁在這個整個偵辦過程中齁這個公務人員他有沒有秉持行政中立這個司法偵辦他有沒有公正執法大概主席關注的就是這個啦齁那這個部分所以我們就要針對這個主題我們就要一個一個來\n\n05:59.159 --> 06:09.186\n這個問題我們今天又不是政論節目啦政論節目我可以講很多啦但是今天我們在立法院裡面我們就專題討論我們就抽絲剝繭一個一個問題來請教是不是先請這個司法院法務部這個部長是不是也請\n\n06:23.498 --> 06:39.110\n這個我們就回到最原始的問題啦因為我發現這個所謂國人認為是因為最原始的問題的認知上面現在好像也有很大的歧義啊這個先請問訪問部長這個我們如果知道有犯罪的行為是不是應該要\n\n06:40.464 --> 07:08.345\n是不是就是有知道有犯罪的行為我們法務部知道有犯罪的行為是不是就應該要偵辦對這個有犯罪的行為的話部分大小都要偵辦如果有犯罪行為部分大小都要偵辦嘛那至於怎麼偵辦偵辦你們要秉公處理這是後面的問題但是你知道犯罪行為你要偵辦嘛對不對那所以就回到這裡了這個幽靈連署到底是不是犯罪行為這個是一個犯罪行為是犯罪行為司法院要不要講一下這個\n\n07:09.306 --> 07:37.916\n幽靈連署這是死亡者連署出現死亡者我們就通案來講這又是一個犯罪行為那就那個新修正那個刑罰法98條之二這個是新修正我知道在這個還沒修正之前的時候刑法就有刑法也有修正後刑法就有刑死衛照文書了解了解或者是有涉及各自41跟44條請上好那你們都認為但是其實他剛剛講說國人有疑慮所以國人有很多不同的講法例如\n\n07:39.383 --> 08:03.554\n趙兆康就說連署抄名單這種行為不應該但是沒有嚴重到要關起來啊這就趙兆康講的戴世保說未照文書有這麼嚴重嗎這是國民黨戴世保講的那這個盧秀燕講說偵查幽靈連署你們剛剛講說偵查犯罪行為偵查幽靈連署是國家司法被濫用到了極致這是盧秀燕講的那這個這個\n\n08:06.175 --> 08:23.415\n這個罷免民進黨立委的連署人朱磊他說黨安排黨員抄黨員名冊有錯嗎所以有這麼多人認知之所以會有剛剛這主席講說國人的認知就是因為他們前提很可能他們認為這個不是犯罪行為\n\n08:25.069 --> 08:47.034\n所以他們才會覺得說這個司法不公這個是我第一個問題啦那如果不是如果他們認知是犯罪行為那再來就是才有後面講說偵辦偵辦是不是公平嘛對不對這兩個問題所以是犯罪行為剛剛有講剛剛我們這個司法院副局長講得非常清楚不管是修法前修法後他都是犯罪行為只是修法前\n\n08:48.508 --> 09:14.103\n在這個今年2月18號修法之前他是適用這個刑法210條甚至還有一些個資法第41條對不對違反這個非公務機關收集個人資料的這個收集跟處理這個問題那修法之後當然更明確了更明確他就是就是未照連署未照連署他本身他就是就是犯罪的構成要件這個很清楚所以\n\n09:16.960 --> 09:27.685\n所以我們得到第一個結論我們目前不管偵辦誰不管偵辦哪一個政黨不管偵辦哪一個公民偵辦他他未照聯署書罷免聯署書這個行為這個是應該要辦的因為他是犯罪行為對不對這是第一個前提但是\n\n09:40.919 --> 09:58.810\n我想這個主席所說的國人有疑慮恐怕不只是這樣子國人有疑慮說你們有沒有不公平啦是不是執法有沒有不公啊你們有沒有恪守行政中立啦這個我想這是他們要指控的啦他們要指控說你們這個辦理辦難不辦律啦那這個部分可能就要請中選會了中選會\n\n10:14.966 --> 10:41.628\n委員好我看到目前這個有關於我們這個死亡連署是司法機關之所以展開偵辦是因為我們中選被告發對不對有移送對有移送告發你們告發了多少案件41件41件你們告發41件是那41件41件裡面是不是你們都只告發國民黨對不對你們沒有告發民進黨沒有沒有都有\n\n10:43.454 --> 11:10.587\n都有告發那為什麼說我們不公他們說你們是不是只告發要罷免民進黨立委的這些藍的是不是報告沒有我們都有都有告發嘛都有告發那是不是你們在告發裡面遞送救親你們看罷免民進黨的你們就看得比較嚴格罷免國民黨的你們檢查就比較鬆是你們自己檢查的嗎\n\n11:11.547 --> 11:31.296\n報告委員那個是地方選委會查對的結果我們都是是地方選委會查不是你們中選會自己一個一個來對的所以你們因為你們中選會可惡嫌疑民進黨執政你們中選會你們故意挑這個要罷免民進黨的你們就看得很嚴格然後要罷免國民黨就隨便看一看勾一勾\n\n11:32.056 --> 11:59.648\n就不是喔是地方選委會所以王宏威要罷免王宏威委員的他裡面零個死亡連署不是你們連看都不看你們是蔣萬安所任命的選委會他們去查的是不是是地方的選委會跟他們的互證機關比對的嘛對不對跟中選會沒有關係比對的結果跟中選會中選會只是把他們比對來的結果拿來然後該告發該移送的就對就經過我們委員會審議移送\n\n12:01.989 --> 12:13.678\n那這樣子聽起來第一你們藍綠都有移送而且就照完全就照地方各地方的選委會自己他們比對出來結果所以今天說說這個這個我看一下齁這個這個數據資料齁今天說這個罷免要罷免張宏祿的這個他的死亡連署比例高達20%\n\n12:32.763 --> 13:01.530\n這不是你們說的這個是侯友宜任命的新北市選委會跟他們侯友宜的新北市的戶政事務所比對出來所以不是你們在陷害不是你們行政不公在故意在搞不是你們辦藍不辦綠這個是新北市政府的選委會跟他們的戶政事務所比對出來的嘛百分之二十的意思是什麼是每五個人裡面就有一個人\n\n13:03.151 --> 13:26.867\n每五張連署處裡面就有一張這個拿石頭丟每五個人丟就丟到一個人耶這樣子的死亡連署規模耶這個跟這個百分之0.3是一千個人裡面才三個人有出現三份死亡連署跟一百份裡面出現二十份死亡連署這嚴重程度當然不一樣吧\n\n13:28.362 --> 13:46.367\n這個好我現在中選會我先問那我就了解了原來不是我想說你們中選會太混蛋了這民進黨執政下的中選會只移送國民黨不移送民進黨而且你們查的時候就故意只把國民黨查嚴一點把民進黨查鬆一點原來不是原來是地方的選委會查的好請問\n\n13:52.136 --> 14:16.382\n那這個這個再請問鄭部長齁這個剛剛我我大概已經提到了我這個表齁表上面我看到我們這個這個目前死亡連署的比例齁因為辦藍不帶不辦綠剛剛我現在先澄清了啦齁就辦就辦案而言這個這個告發是中選會告發只要中選會有告發你們就必須要辦啦不管他是藍綠對不對是只要有告發你們就必須要辦嘛齁啊但是這個這個\n\n14:19.728 --> 14:38.797\n國人認為剛剛主席講的國人有人認為不公可能是因為為什麼因為你們看起來這個現在有發動搜索的有這個看起來都是罷免民進黨的罷免國民黨的他也有也有這個死亡連署為什麼你們\n\n14:40.771 --> 14:49.557\n現在沒有看到你們有發動這種搜索這個強度或者是甚至收押這樣子的強制處分都沒有\n\n14:51.189 --> 15:04.300\n那這個是因為跟跟他的這個這個這個未照未照的嫌疑他的比例有沒有關係關聯跟委員報告齁那個我們正辦爹士凱客觀中立的立場完全是憑證據來認定這個犯罪的一個事實齁那這個這個\n\n15:10.064 --> 15:27.925\n至於要採取什麼樣的偵查行動每個案件的一個情況不一樣那我們是尊重我也沒辦法去過問這個檢官如何去做一個偵辦那這個個案的一個情況的證據要不要搜索要不要要不要傳犯這個完全是由檢察機關在做一個個案的一個\n\n15:28.886 --> 15:49.117\n一個偵查的一個對就是個案偵查他要怎麼樣保全證據他要怎麼樣發現真實這個在承辦的檢察官由他來決定對不對這個是決定沒有黨派決定沒有預設而且這樣子啦我這樣問你啦今天有一間30年老店經過30年今天出了一個滷肉飯結果裡面出現一隻蟑螂然後隔壁有一間餐廳\n\n15:53.069 --> 16:17.749\n他今天出了十份餐十份餐裡面有兩份蟑螂出了一百份餐裡面出了二十隻蟑螂有二十份餐裡面出蟑螂這個衛生局去說啊都一樣我全部勒令你停業一個月這樣是公平嗎這當然是我舉這個例子意思就是說同樣的犯罪形態但是他在犯罪比例上面他確實會影響我們偵辦的方式會我們保全證據的手法\n\n16:21.786 --> 16:26.421\n跟我們發現真實的方式會有所不同這沒有什麼不對啊這有什麼不對\n\n16:27.895 --> 16:54.664\n你今天說抓到詐騙集團騙了幾億的詐騙集團集團的這個首領跑出來講說我路邊看到剛剛那個老頭子在那邊騙那個說他沒錢坐車回台北在那邊騙一百塊一百塊要坐車回台北你們為什麼沒有把他們全部羈押為什麼沒有把他羈押他只羈押我我要抗議我426要出來總統府這賴清德混蛋只辦我詐騙集團不辦這個詐騙老人\n\n16:58.305 --> 17:14.845\n就是這樣子為什麼有組織犯罪條例照理講犯罪是罪行法定主義一罪一罰你做了什麼犯罪行為你這個個人要負擔就好為什麼有所謂組織犯罪條例他的立法精神就是說你同樣這是你的犯罪形態如果你是組織化的\n\n17:16.496 --> 17:38.662\n你對社會的法益危害就不只是你個別犯罪危害的法益而已對不對部長對這個環節有涉及到犯罪檢測員辦如果說不能辦某種犯罪而不能辦那種犯罪那這樣的話就是一個選擇性的辦案嘛所以這個是不行的好我的時間超過了啦我要簡單講第一個就是我們確認衛照連署到底是不是犯罪行為如果是\n\n17:39.582 --> 17:54.175\n那4.26我就不知道4.26大家到總統府前面是要支持我們要支持偽造文書,我們要支持違反個資法這個我就不是很理解了那再來到底有沒有這個藍綠這個我剛剛講很清楚了\n\n18:00.523 --> 18:28.385\n那最後實在也許或者我比較奴頓我沒有辦法把這個偽造文書偽造聯署書我比較我比較奴頓我沒有辦法偽造聯署書是犯罪行為這件事情講得清楚那我們就來聽聽我們這個立法院的幕府陳忠看他怎麼看他來指示給我們指點指點說到底到底這個這個聯署這個偽造聯署書到底是不是犯罪行為\n\n18:35.148 --> 18:58.349\n不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事所有426要站到凱達園大道的人要想一想不要以為偽造聯署出事沒有事的好以上謝謝那也歡迎省委員426一起來參加就可以了解我們在講的不是\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.726,"end":13.949,"text":"主席這不知道哪個委員的手機放在這喔 好"},{"start":17.063,"end":35.117,"text":"主席,我想剛才盧委員的質詢,他一開始也是針對我們這個主題詢問主席的這跟我也不約而同,我跟他又不熟,也不同黨,但是我們同樣對今天的這個主題都有一些問題所以我這也是先請教一下主席"},{"start":36.398,"end":61.501,"text":"我們今天的主題是說這個選舉罷免程序中這就主題是選舉罷免程序那在這個程序裡面呢如何落實幾種人呢公務人員含政務官司法人員是第二個選務人員是第三個三種人幹什麼呢落實什麼呢他們能不能恪守行政中立秉持公正執法"},{"start":62.7,"end":82.968,"text":"誤偏頗這是今天的主題嘛對不對我大概因為這個主題這麼長齁我這個比較奴頓我就必須要把它拆解文法齁才理解主詞是什麼授詞是什麼那這樣子如果今天是這個主題的話齁那如果問題是說選舉罷免程序中是否應該"},{"start":85.166,"end":98.114,"text":"這些人 是否應該恪守行政中立 秉持公正執法 勿偏頗我想這答案就是 YES 是的 當然不用說就是所以其實沒有什麼好討論"},{"start":99.625,"end":118.958,"text":"但是沒什麼好討論我想主席為什麼也會把它列成一個專案報告咧一個專題報告那一定是你有認為說現在有一些狀況現在目前有一些狀況你認為沒有落實沒有這個恪守行政中立目前有一些狀況他沒有秉持公正執法所以你認為說現在的狀況有這種問題才排這個案子嘛對不對"},{"start":123.581,"end":150.432,"text":"那就是我也不曉得主席個人主觀認為現在有什麼樣的狀況是不符合是沒有恪守行政中立那我需要跟委員報告嗎你如果要報告我時間都還沒開始對沒有開始跟委員報告就是說因為現在呢有行政不中立這個東西當然啦就是說如果活在自己的同溫層跟泡泡圈裡面會覺得哪有行政不中立但是呢行政不中立這個確實是國人有非常多的質疑"},{"start":151.212,"end":171.977,"text":"那當然在特定媒體是不會看到但在非特定媒體的時候會有我怕我的質詢離題我也怕說被說我現在在討論哪一個案子就變成討論個案所以我必須了解主席你到底你今天關心的到底是什麼案子什麼狀況它是現在是沒有行政中立現在是沒有公正執法有關是否討論個案部分"},{"start":174.558,"end":202.296,"text":"在九點多的時候 那時候我們曾經有討論過一次只是可能各位委員當時沒有在場當時我就問到因為第一位的陳培武委員他今天問的很多都是目前偵查中的個案那當時我說我們可能我們本委員會將來是不是要討論一下我們在個人每個人質詢的時候到底可不可以去討論偵查中的個案我們大家一個共識出來主席那我們具體請問那第二個就是說今天的議題是這樣既然國人有非常多人有質疑的話那我們就拿出來討論"},{"start":203.117,"end":210.866,"text":"那我排這個案子並不是下定論所以我今天就針對目前如果今天等一下接下來正式開始我就針對這個有關目前在偵辦中的這些罷免案的幽靈連署的這些狀況"},{"start":219.292,"end":223.854,"text":"我覺得就通案去討論我就是要理解就是主席認為說目前偵辦的這個幽靈連署案這個是現在的狀況是有為恪守行政中立你認為現在是有沒有秉持公正執法的情形所以你才排這個專案報告動員了"},{"start":243.041,"end":257.744,"text":"應該是這樣子啦我的理解沒有沒有 你的理解錯誤了齁我不對任何一個事情下定論我們今天是國人有這個疑慮我們就拿到委員會來討論我不會說行政機關就是不中立我沒有下過這個定論今天陣仗其實說起來是很大啦針對這個問題你動員我們的五院 你動員的四院大家坐在這裡來討論這個問題因為立法院我們自己在這裡動員立法院在這裡開會"},{"start":270.406,"end":281.23,"text":"然後這個行政院行政院有這個中選會有法務部有內政部有人事行政總局然後司法院也來考試院又有權序部又有公務人員訪訊會"},{"start":283.007,"end":308.86,"text":"五院動員的四院那這個二級機關這個這麼多二級機關然後到指定三級機關聯政署、調查局、警政署都要來所以今天這個是相當陣仗相當大所以我要了解說到底到底主席是怎麼樣設定這案子好 謝謝沈委員那我先開始 好不好那個民主國家行政中立是根本所以美國總統跟國務院他們常常對白你不用再闡述了我現在了解你的想法了"},{"start":309.44,"end":337.477,"text":"它是民主國家根本這是一件非常重要的事情所以我們今天會請各院過來好主席我了解你的想法好那我現在我要開始我的質詢好謝謝沈委員好那現在這樣子齁我們這樣子大概就整理出來我們就是了解啦齁就是說今天這個狀況主席是因為認為國人對於目前六十四這個六十四件的這個罷免案裡面的這些幽靈連署齁它是不是有"},{"start":338.317,"end":357.918,"text":"有它涉及的這些衛照文書跟各執法齁在這個整個偵辦過程中齁這個公務人員他有沒有秉持行政中立這個司法偵辦他有沒有公正執法大概主席關注的就是這個啦齁那這個部分所以我們就要針對這個主題我們就要一個一個來"},{"start":359.159,"end":369.186,"text":"這個問題我們今天又不是政論節目啦政論節目我可以講很多啦但是今天我們在立法院裡面我們就專題討論我們就抽絲剝繭一個一個問題來請教是不是先請這個司法院法務部這個部長是不是也請"},{"start":383.498,"end":399.11,"text":"這個我們就回到最原始的問題啦因為我發現這個所謂國人認為是因為最原始的問題的認知上面現在好像也有很大的歧義啊這個先請問訪問部長這個我們如果知道有犯罪的行為是不是應該要"},{"start":400.464,"end":428.345,"text":"是不是就是有知道有犯罪的行為我們法務部知道有犯罪的行為是不是就應該要偵辦對這個有犯罪的行為的話部分大小都要偵辦如果有犯罪行為部分大小都要偵辦嘛那至於怎麼偵辦偵辦你們要秉公處理這是後面的問題但是你知道犯罪行為你要偵辦嘛對不對那所以就回到這裡了這個幽靈連署到底是不是犯罪行為這個是一個犯罪行為是犯罪行為司法院要不要講一下這個"},{"start":429.306,"end":457.916,"text":"幽靈連署這是死亡者連署出現死亡者我們就通案來講這又是一個犯罪行為那就那個新修正那個刑罰法98條之二這個是新修正我知道在這個還沒修正之前的時候刑法就有刑法也有 修正後刑法就有刑死衛照文書 了解了解或者是有涉及各自41跟44條 請上好 那你們都認為但是其實他剛剛講說國人有疑慮所以國人有很多不同的講法例如"},{"start":459.383,"end":483.554,"text":"趙兆康就說 連署抄名單這種行為不應該但是沒有嚴重到要關起來啊這就趙兆康講的戴世保說 未照文書有這麼嚴重嗎這是國民黨戴世保講的那這個盧秀燕講說 偵查幽靈連署你們剛剛講說偵查犯罪行為偵查幽靈連署是國家司法被濫用到了極致這是盧秀燕講的那這個 這個"},{"start":486.175,"end":503.415,"text":"這個罷免民進黨立委的連署人朱磊他說黨安排黨員抄黨員名冊有錯嗎所以有這麼多人認知之所以會有剛剛這主席講說國人的認知就是因為他們前提很可能他們認為這個不是犯罪行為"},{"start":505.069,"end":527.034,"text":"所以他們才會覺得說這個司法不公這個是我第一個問題啦那如果不是 如果他們認知是犯罪行為那再來就是才有後面講說偵辦偵辦是不是公平嘛 對不對這兩個問題所以是犯罪行為剛剛有講剛剛我們這個司法院副局長講得非常清楚不管是修法前修法後他都是犯罪行為只是修法前"},{"start":528.508,"end":554.103,"text":"在這個今年2月18號修法之前他是適用這個刑法210條甚至還有一些個資法第41條對不對違反這個非公務機關收集個人資料的這個收集跟處理這個問題那修法之後當然更明確了更明確他就是就是未照連署未照連署他本身他就是就是犯罪的構成要件這個很清楚所以"},{"start":556.96,"end":567.685,"text":"所以我們得到第一個結論我們目前不管偵辦誰不管偵辦哪一個政黨不管偵辦哪一個公民偵辦他他未照聯署書罷免聯署書這個行為這個是應該要辦的因為他是犯罪行為對不對這是第一個前提但是"},{"start":580.919,"end":598.81,"text":"我想這個主席所說的國人有疑慮恐怕不只是這樣子國人有疑慮說你們有沒有不公平啦是不是執法有沒有不公啊你們有沒有恪守行政中立啦這個我想這是他們要指控的啦他們要指控說你們這個辦理辦難不辦律啦那這個部分可能就要請中選會了中選會"},{"start":614.966,"end":641.628,"text":"委員好我看到目前這個有關於我們這個死亡連署是司法機關之所以展開偵辦是因為我們中選被告發對不對有移送對有移送告發你們告發了多少案件41件41件你們告發41件是那41件41件裡面是不是你們都只告發國民黨對不對你們沒有告發民進黨沒有沒有都有"},{"start":643.454,"end":670.587,"text":"都有告發那為什麼說我們不公他們說你們是不是只告發要罷免民進黨立委的這些藍的是不是報告沒有 我們都有都有告發嘛 都有告發那是不是你們在告發裡面遞送救親你們看罷免民進黨的你們就看得比較嚴格罷免國民黨的你們檢查就比較鬆是你們自己檢查的嗎"},{"start":671.547,"end":691.296,"text":"報告委員那個是地方選委會查對的結果我們都是是地方選委會查不是你們中選會自己一個一個來對的所以你們因為你們中選會可惡嫌疑民進黨執政你們中選會你們故意挑這個要罷免民進黨的你們就看得很嚴格然後要罷免國民黨就隨便看一看勾一勾"},{"start":692.056,"end":719.648,"text":"就不是喔 是地方選委會所以王宏威要罷免王宏威委員的他裡面零個死亡連署不是你們連看都不看你們是蔣萬安所任命的選委會他們去查的是不是是地方的選委會跟他們的互證機關比對的嘛 對不對跟中選會沒有關係比對的結果跟中選會中選會只是把他們比對來的結果拿來然後該告發該移送的就對 就經過我們委員會審議移送"},{"start":721.989,"end":733.678,"text":"那這樣子聽起來第一你們藍綠都有移送而且就照完全就照地方各地方的選委會自己他們比對出來結果所以今天說說這個這個我看一下齁這個這個數據資料齁今天說這個罷免要罷免張宏祿的這個他的死亡連署比例高達20%"},{"start":752.763,"end":781.53,"text":"這不是你們說的 這個是侯友宜任命的新北市選委會跟他們侯友宜的新北市的戶政事務所比對出來所以不是你們在陷害 不是你們行政不公在故意在搞不是你們辦藍不辦綠這個是新北市政府的選委會跟他們的戶政事務所比對出來的嘛百分之二十的意思是什麼是每五個人裡面就有一個人"},{"start":783.151,"end":806.867,"text":"每五張連署處裡面就有一張這個拿石頭丟每五個人丟就丟到一個人耶這樣子的死亡連署規模耶這個跟這個百分之0.3是一千個人裡面才三個人有出現三份死亡連署跟一百份裡面出現二十份死亡連署這嚴重程度當然不一樣吧"},{"start":808.362,"end":826.367,"text":"這個好我現在中選會我先問那我就了解了原來不是我想說你們中選會太混蛋了這民進黨執政下的中選會只移送國民黨不移送民進黨而且你們查的時候就故意只把國民黨查嚴一點把民進黨查鬆一點原來不是原來是地方的選委會查的好請問"},{"start":832.136,"end":856.382,"text":"那這個這個再請問鄭部長齁這個剛剛我我大概已經提到了我這個表齁表上面我看到我們這個這個目前死亡連署的比例齁因為辦藍不帶不辦綠剛剛我現在先澄清了啦齁就辦就辦案而言這個這個告發是中選會告發只要中選會有告發你們就必須要辦啦不管他是藍綠對不對是只要有告發你們就必須要辦嘛齁啊但是這個這個"},{"start":859.728,"end":878.797,"text":"國人認為 剛剛主席講的國人有人認為不公可能是因為為什麼 因為你們看起來這個現在有發動搜索的有這個看起來都是罷免民進黨的罷免國民黨的他也有也有這個死亡連署 為什麼你們"},{"start":880.771,"end":889.557,"text":"現在沒有看到你們有發動這種搜索這個強度或者是甚至收押這樣子的強制處分都沒有"},{"start":891.189,"end":904.3,"text":"那這個是因為跟跟他的這個這個這個未照未照的嫌疑他的比例有沒有關係關聯跟委員報告齁那個我們正辦爹士凱客觀中立的立場完全是憑證據來認定這個犯罪的一個事實齁那這個這個"},{"start":910.064,"end":927.925,"text":"至於要採取什麼樣的偵查行動每個案件的一個情況不一樣那我們是尊重我也沒辦法去過問這個檢官如何去做一個偵辦那這個個案的一個情況的證據要不要搜索要不要要不要傳犯這個完全是由檢察機關在做一個個案的一個"},{"start":928.886,"end":949.117,"text":"一個偵查的一個對 就是個案偵查 他要怎麼樣保全證據他要怎麼樣發現真實 這個在承辦的檢察官由他來決定對不對這個是決定沒有黨派 決定沒有預設而且這樣子啦 我這樣問你啦今天有一間30年老店 經過30年今天出了一個滷肉飯 結果裡面出現一隻蟑螂然後隔壁有一間餐廳"},{"start":953.069,"end":977.749,"text":"他今天出了十份餐十份餐裡面有兩份蟑螂出了一百份餐裡面出了二十隻蟑螂有二十份餐裡面出蟑螂這個衛生局去說啊都一樣我全部勒令你停業一個月這樣是公平嗎這當然是我舉這個例子意思就是說同樣的犯罪形態但是他在犯罪比例上面他確實會影響我們偵辦的方式會我們保全證據的手法"},{"start":981.786,"end":986.421,"text":"跟我們發現真實的方式會有所不同這沒有什麼不對啊這有什麼不對"},{"start":987.895,"end":1014.664,"text":"你今天說抓到詐騙集團騙了幾億的詐騙集團集團的這個首領跑出來講說我路邊看到剛剛那個老頭子在那邊騙那個說他沒錢坐車回台北在那邊騙一百塊一百塊要坐車回台北你們為什麼沒有把他們全部羈押為什麼沒有把他羈押他只羈押我我要抗議我426要出來總統府這賴清德混蛋只辦我詐騙集團不辦這個詐騙老人"},{"start":1018.305,"end":1034.845,"text":"就是這樣子為什麼有組織犯罪條例照理講犯罪是罪行法定主義一罪一罰你做了什麼犯罪行為你這個個人要負擔就好為什麼有所謂組織犯罪條例他的立法精神就是說你同樣這是你的犯罪形態如果你是組織化的"},{"start":1036.496,"end":1058.662,"text":"你對社會的法益危害就不只是你個別犯罪危害的法益而已對不對 部長對 這個環節有涉及到犯罪檢測員辦如果說不能辦某種犯罪而不能辦那種犯罪那這樣的話就是一個選擇性的辦案嘛所以這個是不行的好 我的時間超過了啦我要簡單講第一個就是我們確認衛照連署到底是不是犯罪行為如果是"},{"start":1059.582,"end":1074.175,"text":"那4.26我就不知道4.26大家到總統府前面是要支持我們要支持偽造文書,我們要支持違反個資法這個我就不是很理解了那再來到底有沒有這個藍綠這個我剛剛講很清楚了"},{"start":1080.523,"end":1108.385,"text":"那最後實在也許或者我比較奴頓我沒有辦法把這個偽造文書偽造聯署書我比較我比較奴頓我沒有辦法偽造聯署書是犯罪行為這件事情講得清楚那我們就來聽聽我們這個立法院的幕府陳忠看他怎麼看他來指示給我們指點指點說到底到底這個這個聯署這個偽造聯署書到底是不是犯罪行為"},{"start":1115.148,"end":1138.349,"text":"不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事不要以為偽造聯署會沒有事所有426要站到凱達園大道的人要想一想不要以為偽造聯署出事沒有事的好 以上謝謝 那也歡迎省委員426一起來參加就可以了解我們在講的不是"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時23分）主席，剛才有委員的質詢，一開始也是針對我們這個主題詢問主席，這跟我要問的也是不約而同。我跟他又不熟，也不同黨，但是我們同樣對今天的這個主題都有一些問題，所以我先請教一下主席。我們今天的主題是談選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員恪守行政中立，秉持公正執法勿偏頗，而這裡的公務人員包含三種人，政務官是第一個，司法人員是第二個，選務人員是第三個。這是今天的主題，因為這個主題這麼長，我又比較駑鈍，就必須要把它拆解文法，才能理解主詞是什麼、受詞是什麼。","如果今天是這個主題的話，問題應是選舉罷免程序中，這些人是否應該恪守行政中立，秉持公正執法勿偏頗，我想答案就是Yes、是的、當然、不用多說、就是如此，所以其實也沒有什麼好討論的，但是在沒什麼好討論的情況下，主席為什麼也會把它列成一個專題報告呢？"],["主席：好，跟沈委員報告……"],["沈委員發惠：那一定是你認為現在有一些狀況沒有落實、恪守行政中立，沒有秉持公正執法。你認為現在的狀況有些問題存在，所以才排這個案子，對不對？我也不曉得主席個人主觀認為現在有什麼樣的狀況是沒有符合、沒有恪守行政中立的。"],["主席：好，那我需要跟委員報告嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：你如果要報告，我的發言時間都還沒有開始。"],["主席：對，還沒有開始。跟委員報告，現在有行政不中立，這個東西當然如果是活在自己的同溫層跟泡泡圈裡面，會覺得這哪有行政不中立？但是行政不中立這個部分確實國人有非常多的質疑，當然在特定媒體是不會看到的，但在非特定媒體的時候……"],["沈委員發惠：我怕我的質詢離題，我也怕被說我現在討論到哪一個案子就變成是在討論個案，所以我必須了解主席今天關心的到底是什麼案子、什麼狀況，它現在沒有行政中立或是沒有公正執法等等的。"],["主席：有關是否討論個案的部分，今天在九點多的時候，我們曾經有討論過一次，只是可能委員當時沒有在場，當時我就有問到，因為第一位的陳培瑜委員今天問的很多都是目前偵查中的個案，當時我說本委員會將來是不是要討論一下，我們在每個人質詢的時候到底可不可以去討論偵查中的個案，希望大家能有一個共識出來……"],["沈委員發惠：主席，那我具體請問……"],["主席：第二個，今天的議題是這樣，既然非常多的國人質疑，那我們就拿出來討論，我排這個案子並不是下定論……"],["沈委員發惠：如果等一下、接下來正式開始發言，我就針對有關目前偵辦中罷免案的幽靈連署這些狀況提問，那不算是離題嗎？"],["主席：我覺得就通案去討論。"],["沈委員發惠：通案去討論，那就不算是離題了。我要理解的就是，主席認為目前偵辦的幽靈連署案現在的狀況未恪守行政中立，你認為現在有沒有秉持公正執法的情形，所以你才排這個專案報告，也動員了……應該是這樣子啦！這是我的理解……"],["主席：沒有！沒有！你的理解錯誤了，我不對任何一個事情下定論，今天是國人有這個疑慮，我們就拿到委員會來討論，我不會說行政機關就是不中立，我沒有下過這個定論。"],["沈委員發惠：今天的陣仗說起來其實是很大啦！針對這個問題，我們五院當中你動員了四院，讓大家坐在這裡來討論這個問題，除了動員我們立法院自己在這裡開會；然後行政院有中選會、法務部、內政部、人事行政總處列席；然後司法院也來了；考試院有銓敘部又有公務人員保訓會列席，五院動員了四院，當中有這麼多二級機關，然後也指定了三級機關，包括廉政署、調查局、警政署等等都要來列席，今天的陣仗相當大，所以我要了解主席到底是怎麼樣設定這個議程。好，我現在了解了，主席，我現在開始發言，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝沈委員。民主國家行政中立是根本……"],["沈委員發惠：好，我知道……"],["主席：所以美國總統跟國務院常常不對盤……"],["沈委員發惠：主席，你不用再闡述了，我現在了解你的想法了……"],["主席：因為它是民主國家的根本，這是一件非常重要的事情，所以我們今天會請各院過來。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我了解你的想法，那我現在要開始我的質詢。"],["主席：好，謝謝沈委員，請開始。"],["沈委員發惠：現在這樣子大概就可以整理出來並了解了，就是今天之所以有這個狀況，是因為主席認為國人對於目前64件罷免案裡面的這些幽靈連署，是不是有涉及偽造文書跟個資法，在這整個偵辦過程中公務人員有沒有秉持行政中立，司法偵辦有沒有公正執法，大概主席關注的就是這個，所以我們針對這個主題就要一個一個提問。我們不是政論節目，若是政論節目，我可以講很多，但今天是在立法院裡面，我們是專題討論，所以我們就抽絲剝繭，一個一個問題來請教。先請司法院，然後法務部部長是不是也一起上來？","我們就回到最原始的問題，我發現所謂的國人認為是因為最原始的問題出在認知上面，現在好像也有很大的歧異。先請問法務部長，法務部知道有犯罪的行為，是不是就應該要偵辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。有犯罪行為的話，不分大小都要偵辦。"],["沈委員發惠：如果有犯罪行為，不分大小都要偵辦嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["沈委員發惠：至於怎麼偵辦，你們要秉公處理，這是後面的問題，但是若知道有犯罪行為，你就要偵辦，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以就回到這裡來看，幽靈連署到底是不是犯罪行為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個犯罪行為。"],["沈委員發惠：司法院要不要講一下，這個幽靈連署也就是連署人裡面出現死亡者？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們就通案來講，這就是一個犯罪行為。"],["沈委員發惠：好，就通案。"],["王副秘書長梅英：選罷法第九十八條之二是新修正的條文。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道。"],["王副秘書長梅英：在這個條文還沒修正之前刑法就有行使偽造文書罪，或者是有涉及個資法第四十一條跟第四十四條，以上。"],["沈委員發惠：了解，謝謝副秘書長，你們都這樣認為，但是他剛剛說國人有疑慮，國人有很多不同的講法，例如趙少康就說連署抄名單這種行為不應該，但是沒有嚴重到要關起來啊！這是趙少康講的；賴士葆說偽造文書有這麼嚴重嗎？這是國民黨賴士葆講的；盧秀燕說偵查幽靈連署，你們剛剛是講偵查犯罪行為，她說偵查幽靈連署是國家司法被濫用到了極致，這是盧秀燕講的；罷免民進黨立委的領銜人朱磊說「黨安排黨員抄黨員名冊，有錯嗎？」。剛剛主席講國人的認知，就是因為前提是很可能他們認為這個不是犯罪行為，所以他們才會覺得司法不公，這個是我的第一個問題，那如果不是這樣，如果他們的認知是犯罪行為，那再來才有後面講的偵辦是不是公平嘛！對不對？就是這兩個問題。所以這是犯罪行為，剛剛司法院的副秘書長講得非常清楚，不管是修法前、修法後，它都是犯罪行為，只是在今年2月18號修法之前，它是適用刑法第二百一十條，甚至還有個資法第四十一條，對不對？就是有違反非公務機關蒐集個人資料的蒐集跟處理的這個問題。在修法之後當然就更明確了，它就是偽造連署，它就是犯罪的構成要件，這個很清楚。所以我們得到第一個結論，目前不管偵辦誰、不管偵辦哪一個政黨、不管在偵辦哪一個公民，偵辦他偽造罷免連署書這個行為，這個是應該要辦的，因為它是犯罪行為，對不對？這是第一個前提。但是我想主席所說的國人有疑慮，恐怕不只是這樣子，國人的疑慮是你們有沒有不公平、執法有沒有不公、你們有沒有恪守行政中立，我想這是他們要指控的，他們要指控你們辦藍不辦綠啦！這個部分可能就要請中選會說明了。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：我看到目前有關於死亡連署，司法機關之所以展開偵辦，就是因為中選會去告發，對不對？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：有移送。"],["沈委員發惠：有移送告發嘛？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["沈委員發惠：你們告發了多少案件？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：41件。"],["沈委員發惠：你們告發了41件？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["沈委員發惠：你們都只告發國民黨的，對不對？有沒有告發民進黨的？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：都有。"],["沈委員發惠：都有告發嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：都有啊！"],["沈委員發惠：那為什麼說我們不公？他們質疑你們是不是只告發要罷免民進黨立委的這些藍的，是不是？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，不是，我們都有。"],["沈委員發惠：都有告發嘛？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["沈委員發惠：你們都有告發，那是不是你們告發的時候避重就輕，對於罷免民進黨的，你們就看得比較嚴格，對於罷免國民黨的，你們檢查就比較鬆，是你們自己檢查的嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，那個是地方選委會查對的結果，我們都是以……"],["沈委員發惠：是地方選委會查，不是你們中選會自己一個一個來對的，你們中選會可惡，有嫌疑因為是民進黨執政，所以中選會故意挑這個要罷免民進黨的，你們就看得很嚴格，然後要罷免國民黨的，你們就隨便看一看、勾一勾，結果不是喔，是地方選委會查的。所以要罷免王鴻薇委員的連署書裡面是零個死亡連署，不是你們連看都不看，而是由蔣萬安所任命的選委會他們去查的，是不是？是地方的選委會跟他們的戶政機關比對的，對不對？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["沈委員發惠：跟中選會沒有關係，中選會只是把他們比對的結果拿來，然後該告發、該移送的就移送，對不對？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：對，就是經過我們委員會審議移送。"],["沈委員發惠：好，那這樣這樣子聽起來，第一，你們對藍綠都有移送，而且完全就照各地方的選委會自己所比對出來的結果。我看一下這個數據資料，今天說要罷免張宏陸的死亡連署比例高達20%，這不是你們說的，這個是侯友宜任命的新北市選委會跟侯友宜的新北市戶政事務所比對出來的，對不對？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：對，這個是地方的戶政事務所。"],["沈委員發惠：所以不是你們在陷害，不是你們行政不公，故意在搞嘛！不是你們辦藍不辦綠。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：這個是新北市政府的選委會跟他們的戶政事務所比對出來的嘛！"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["沈委員發惠：20%的意思是什麼？是每5個人裡面就有1個人，每5張連署書裡面就有1張，如果是拿石頭丟，每丟5個人就丟到1個人欸！是這樣子的死亡連署規模，如果是0.3%，就是在1,000個人裡面才出現3份死亡連署，跟在100份裡面出現20份死亡連署相比，嚴重程度當然不一樣吧！"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我先問了中選會，那我就了解了，原來不是這樣，我以為是你們中選會太混蛋了，民進黨執政下的中選會只移送國民黨、不移送民進黨，而且你們查的時候就故意只對國民黨查嚴一點，對民進黨就查鬆一點，原來不是這樣，原來是地方的選委會查的。好，請回。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：我再請問鄭部長，剛剛我大概已經提到了，在我這個表上面可以看到目前死亡連署的比例，第一個，對於辦藍不辦綠的講法，剛剛我已經先澄清了，就辦案而言，這是中選會告發的，只要中選會有告發，你們就必須要辦，不管他是藍綠，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：只要有告發，你們就必須要辦嘛！但是剛剛主席有講國人有人認為不公，可能是因為什麼？因為看起來現在有發動搜索的都是罷免民進黨的，罷免國民黨的也有死亡連署，為什麼現在沒有看到你們有發動像這種強度的搜索，甚至像收押這樣子的強制處分也都沒有，這是為什麼？這跟他偽造的嫌疑還有比例有沒有關聯？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們偵辦是採客觀中立的立場，毋枉毋縱，完全是憑證據來認定犯罪的事實。"],["沈委員發惠：至於要採取什麼樣的偵查行動……"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個案件的情況不一樣，那我們是尊重，我也沒有去過問檢察官如何去進行偵辦。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：視個案的證據情況決定要不要搜索、要不要傳喚，這完全是由檢察機關在對個案進行偵查。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我知道，這是個案偵查，他要怎麼樣保全證據，他要怎麼樣發現真實，這個是由承辦的檢察官來決定，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是絕對沒有黨派、絕對沒有預設立場。"],["沈委員發惠：我這樣問你，今天有一間已經開業30年的老店出了一個滷肉飯，結果裡面出現一隻蟑螂，然後隔壁有一間餐廳今天出了10份餐，在10份餐裡面有2份餐有蟑螂，出了100份餐，在20份餐裡面有蟑螂，衛生局說都一樣，全部勒令停業1個月，這樣子公平嗎？我舉這個例子的意思就是說，同樣的犯罪型態，但是犯罪的比例確實會影響我們偵辦的方式，還有我們保全證據的手法跟發現真實的方式會有所不同，這沒有什麼不對啊！這有什麼不對？你今天說抓到騙了幾億的詐騙集團，那個集團的首領跑出來說剛剛在路邊看到一個老頭子在那邊騙人，騙人家說他需要100塊坐車回臺北，你們為什麼沒有羈押他？為什麼只羈押我？我要抗議，我426要到總統府前面，因為賴清德混蛋，只辦我詐騙集團，不辦這個詐騙的老人，就是這樣子。為什麼有組織犯罪條例？照理講，犯罪是罪刑法定主義，一罪一罰，你做了什麼犯罪行為，就是你個人負擔就好，為什麼要有所謂的組織犯罪條例？它的立法精神就是同樣的犯罪型態如果是組織化的，對社會的法益危害就不只是個別犯罪危害的法益而已，對不對？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，反正有涉及到犯罪，檢方要辦，如果只辦某種犯罪而不辦那種犯罪，這樣的話就是選擇性的辦案，所以這個是不行的。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我的時間超過了，我要簡單講，第一個，確認偽造連署到底是不是犯罪行為？如果是，我就不知道426大家到總統府前面是要支持偽造文書、要支持違反個資法，這個我就不是很理解。再來，到底有沒有藍綠辦案不公？這個我剛剛講得很清楚。最後，也許我比較駑鈍，我沒有辦法把偽造文書、偽造連署書是犯罪行為這件事情講得清楚，我們就來聽聽立法院的暮鼓晨鐘，看他怎麼指示，給我們指點偽造連署書到底是不是犯罪行為。","（播放影片）"],["沈委員發惠：不要以為偽造連署會沒有事，所有426要站到凱達格蘭大道的人要想一想，不要以為偽造連署書是沒有事的，以上。"],["主席：謝謝，也歡迎沈委員426一起來參加，就可以了解我們在講的不是你剛才說的。偽造文書是不是犯罪？絕對是……"],["吳委員思瑤：議事中立、議事中立。"],["主席：沒有、沒有，我解釋一下，偽造文書就是犯罪。"],["沈委員發惠：好，OK……"],["主席：但是我們主張的是執行不公，我們解釋清楚，也歡迎426大家一起來參加。"],["沈委員發惠：你今天辦這個……"],["主席：你不是很喜歡在立法院喊大罷免嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：你今天辦這個會就是為了426辦的。"],["主席：那是你講的。","下一位請謝龍介委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}}