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00:00:53,360\n對應聯合國身心障礙公約要來做修正或者是所謂的噪音啊黃牛甚至是這個後面跟騷這樣幾個部分內政部其實都明確表態了嘛你剛剛那幾個部分都有明確表態支持或不支持這樣的部分前面幾個部分我大概可以跟內政部採\n\n4\n00:00:54,801 --> 00:01:03,325\n接近或相同的立場啦相同或接近的立場不過根於跟騷的這個部分我倒是想請教一下部長部長我們這個在這個書面報告當中已經提到多次就是說我們現在有部專法跟騷法上路了已經大概兩年了部長你可以先跟我們說明一下這兩年來內政部有沒有統計觀察覺得新法專法上路之後執行的狀況如何\n\n5\n00:01:22,335 --> 00:01:35,725\n謝謝委員的關心跟蹤騷擾防治法當然主管機關也在是我們警政單位那從111年6月上任以來到上個月底3月底的時候警察機關受理的案件是8224件\n\n6\n00:01:37,887 --> 00:01:40,088\n書面告誡是5409違反書面告誡有513也就是說超過八成以上的跟騷行為經過警察機關跟刑事調查程序以後已經有達到遏止的效果\n\n7\n00:01:53,897 --> 00:01:58,839\n但是我們在處理的過程當中其實也持續的跟民間團體或是專家學者還有網路的這些相關的民眾處理有關於諮詢的會議發現到有一部分可能我們還需要做比較好的精進的措施所以就是這部專法立了以後對所謂跟騷跟蹤騷擾的這種行為樣態是有嚇止防制制止的效果沒有錯吧\n\n8\n00:02:22,069 --> 00:02:50,907\n这部是有的但是他也应该值得精进那我想回过头来来跟部长讨论一下你看看我们这样两年多的时间我们受理了8224件核发的这个有书面告诫的这个部分是5409所以核发率是65.8那反过来就是说我就是希望能够得到一个这个申戒这个警告这样子的状态有被处理的嘛我的案件有被处理\n\n9\n00:02:51,587 --> 00:02:56,330\n但顯然有大概三成左右的狀態是不被受理的那這是什麼樣的樣態回過頭來講我們看根梢法的第三條其實很明白的就定義了所謂這部專法根梢法它是以性或性別為處理的原則當時我還記得這個第十屆我們在處理這部專法的時候我也在這部我參與甚多當時就一樣是內政部警政署這邊說\n\n10\n00:03:19,804 --> 00:03:32,559\n因為跟蹤騷擾的樣態太多了所以如果方方面面都要進入這部專法的話我們其實沒有辦法能夠處理所以我們要界定一個範圍就是性與性或性別有關係這樣的狀態所以簡單講\n\n11\n00:03:35,362 --> 00:03:52,147\n我們有一部有效的專法了但這部專法是只有跟性或性別有關啊那剩下的樣態呢我看你的這個樣態裡面部長你應該也會同意嘛不合法討債啦或者是新聞跟蹤啊或者是還有很多種樣態是跟性或性別無關的跟蹤騷擾那這個部分怎麼處理\n\n12\n00:03:54,648 --> 00:04:06,462\n目前我們可能採取其他的方式來處理比如說什麼你的報告裡面有提到比如說涉違法涉違法不就是今天這部嘛對不對所以您剛剛提到就是這三層的部分但是實際上的情形的話我可能要請執行機關來跟委員報告部長妳說就是用\n\n13\n00:04:09,525 --> 00:04:36,107\n社會法來處理嘛對你的報告裡面其實第一我為什麼跟你討論這個就是第一你現在在說社會上有各種糾纏跟蹤騷擾行為這種方式的寫法絕對不限於性或性別嘛對不對然後我們的這個能夠有的這個法制呢有刑事法律處罰或跟騷法性平三法家庭暴力法也沒有錯啊到這邊我都合理\n\n14\n00:04:37,108 --> 00:04:45,367\n所以我就來問你那你為什麼這個我們現在剩下的一個就是社違法可是你最後的主張其實是認為這一條可以刪掉\n\n15\n00:04:49,192 --> 00:05:16,574\n不是處罰我在說處理處理處理啊內政部你的意見是本部要為部長你剛剛正都要順著我的邏輯這樣下來以後我們現在唯一撇去性或性別的這一塊用性騷性平三法來處理之後我們剩下的是刑法跟社會法沒有錯啊到這裡都對可是我正式在跟你討論部內的意見是今天的修正要把社會法刪掉\n\n16\n00:05:17,675 --> 00:05:43,301\n所以我不同意喔不是社委法刪掉就是修正的條文不是社委法刪掉所以你的主張是認為是來當然條文還是可以再跟委員一起考慮啦對但是您剛所提到就是這是我們的沒有注意到的一個面向因為你把跟燒法跟社委法來做比較的時候呢發現有這樣面向我們需要再做處理的話我想可以聽聽大院委員的建議我們來看看怎麼做最佳的處理\n\n17\n00:05:44,401 --> 00:06:00,545\n那您剛所提的部分我是不是請署長跟你回答一下委員就是說這一個跟騷法主要跟性有關係那跟性沒有關係的這些跟騷的行為可以適用其他包括有像草寨的糾紛聚眾的滋擾、鄰里糾紛或記者的跟隨這些\n\n18\n00:06:04,326 --> 00:06:18,611\n有其他法律的適用有包括有刑法或者是設置法那如果設置法這裡面大概就是就是這些屬於行政不法的部分可以來做一個來做一個再更完整的一個修正好\n\n19\n00:06:19,791 --> 00:06:42,124\n那這樣好好好那幸好我們有透過口頭先質詢部長和署長我們今天這是您提供的書面報告我不曉得你這幾個樣態這幾個條文你是不是有不同的幕僚單位提供的狀態你可以很清楚的看到你們從第一項我們剛剛說這次有四項修正嘛那你的每一項裡面你都有很清楚的結論啊第一個這個\n\n20\n00:06:45,146 --> 00:07:08,762\n這個跟行政院生性障礙公約聯合國生性障礙公約的這個相關的你的結論是建議刪除英雅人的規定那後面呢這個黃流的部分呢你的建議是不建議修正再來噪音的部分你也是不建議修正好但是到最後這個在跟騷的這個部分呢你所寫的部內意見是建議刪除本條款規定\n\n21\n00:07:12,239 --> 00:07:34,547\n所以我們看起來我們是有點誤會啦沒關係如果只是一個文字上用語的落差事實上部內是贊成說我們只是不贊成該委員提案修正我們不是要刪除社會法那我今天的質詢也是很有公諭因為我們造成了非常大的誤會天大的誤會不希望有兩個不同的罰則啦\n\n22\n00:07:35,827 --> 00:08:03,544\n不是表示說那個就是我們的不贊成的部分大概不一定是說我們全部的法律都不贊成你前面其實對委員的版本是相當有意見啦這個在於刑罰的這個橫平性啊等等的數額罰金數額你通通都不贊成嘛所以最後你是建議刪除本田委員好不要再佔用其他委員時間我們等一下還有修法的空間你能不能再明確的表態一次你對社委法第89條現在的意見現行版本以及委員修正版本您的意見是是我們的\n\n23\n00:08:05,405 --> 00:08:30,168\n想法就是說一個行為不要有兩個不同的原則跟罰則啦那適用哪裡我們認為說目前委員如果要修正第89條的話那是不是可以就是適用以現在為主比較好不要再做修正所以你不贊成委員的提案版本建議保留現行條文是好謝謝部長我們剩下的下午再討論連主席都笑了大家都看不懂啊抱歉抱歉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n792\t2058\t好 謝謝主席 我們請部長部長有請\n9673\t32063\t委員長我們今天要來討論社會秩序維護法修正那剛剛也看到不管是您的口頭或者是書面提供的這個報告裡面呢其實對於這個大概有11位委員提出的版本當中已經都做了分類那這個分類我看到您這個大部分我們其實應該今天就是有不管是根據要\n34385\t53360\t對應聯合國身心障礙公約要來做修正或者是所謂的噪音啊黃牛甚至是這個後面跟騷這樣幾個部分內政部其實都明確表態了嘛你剛剛那幾個部分都有明確表態支持或不支持這樣的部分前面幾個部分我大概可以跟內政部採\n54801\t63325\t接近或相同的立場啦相同或接近的立場不過根於跟騷的這個部分我倒是想請教一下部長部長我們這個在這個書面報告當中已經提到多次就是說我們現在有部專法跟騷法上路了已經大概兩年了部長你可以先跟我們說明一下這兩年來內政部有沒有統計觀察覺得新法專法上路之後執行的狀況如何\n82335\t95725\t謝謝委員的關心跟蹤騷擾防治法當然主管機關也在是我們警政單位那從111年6月上任以來到上個月底3月底的時候警察機關受理的案件是8224件\n97887\t100088\t書面告誡是5409違反書面告誡有513也就是說超過八成以上的跟騷行為經過警察機關跟刑事調查程序以後已經有達到遏止的效果\n113897\t118839\t但是我們在處理的過程當中其實也持續的跟民間團體或是專家學者還有網路的這些相關的民眾處理有關於諮詢的會議發現到有一部分可能我們還需要做比較好的精進的措施所以就是這部專法立了以後對所謂跟騷跟蹤騷擾的這種行為樣態是有嚇止防制制止的效果沒有錯吧\n142069\t170907\t这部是有的但是他也应该值得精进那我想回过头来来跟部长讨论一下你看看我们这样两年多的时间我们受理了8224件核发的这个有书面告诫的这个部分是5409所以核发率是65.8那反过来就是说我就是希望能够得到一个这个申戒这个警告这样子的状态有被处理的嘛我的案件有被处理\n171587\t176330\t但顯然有大概三成左右的狀態是不被受理的那這是什麼樣的樣態回過頭來講我們看根梢法的第三條其實很明白的就定義了所謂這部專法根梢法它是以性或性別為處理的原則當時我還記得這個第十屆我們在處理這部專法的時候我也在這部我參與甚多當時就一樣是內政部警政署這邊說\n199804\t212559\t因為跟蹤騷擾的樣態太多了所以如果方方面面都要進入這部專法的話我們其實沒有辦法能夠處理所以我們要界定一個範圍就是性與性或性別有關係這樣的狀態所以簡單講\n215362\t232147\t我們有一部有效的專法了但這部專法是只有跟性或性別有關啊那剩下的樣態呢我看你的這個樣態裡面部長你應該也會同意嘛不合法討債啦或者是新聞跟蹤啊或者是還有很多種樣態是跟性或性別無關的跟蹤騷擾那這個部分怎麼處理\n234648\t246462\t目前我們可能採取其他的方式來處理比如說什麼 你的報告裡面有提到比如說涉違法涉違法不就是今天這部嘛 對不對所以您剛剛提到就是這三層的部分但是實際上的情形的話我可能要請執行機關來跟委員報告部長 妳說就是用\n249525\t276107\t社會法來處理嘛對你的報告裡面其實第一我為什麼跟你討論這個就是第一你現在在說社會上有各種糾纏跟蹤騷擾行為這種方式的寫法絕對不限於性或性別嘛對不對然後我們的這個能夠有的這個法制呢有刑事法律處罰或跟騷法性平三法家庭暴力法也沒有錯啊到這邊我都合理\n277108\t285367\t所以我就來問你那你為什麼這個我們現在剩下的一個就是社違法可是你最後的主張其實是認為這一條可以刪掉\n289192\t316574\t不是處罰 我在說處理 處理 處理啊內政部你的意見是本部要為 部長你剛剛正都要順著我的邏輯這樣下來以後我們現在唯一撇去性或性別的這一塊用性騷 性平三法來處理之後我們剩下的是刑法跟社會法沒有錯啊 到這裡都對可是我正式在跟你討論部內的意見是今天的修正要把社會法刪掉\n317675\t343301\t所以我不同意喔不是社委法刪掉就是修正的條文不是社委法刪掉所以你的主張是認為是來當然條文還是可以再跟委員一起考慮啦對但是您剛所提到就是這是我們的沒有注意到的一個面向因為你把跟燒法跟社委法來做比較的時候呢發現有這樣面向我們需要再做處理的話我想可以聽聽大院委員的建議我們來看看怎麼做最佳的處理\n344401\t360545\t那您剛所提的部分我是不是請署長跟你回答一下委員就是說這一個跟騷法主要跟性有關係那跟性沒有關係的這些跟騷的行為可以適用其他包括有像草寨的糾紛聚眾的滋擾、鄰里糾紛或記者的跟隨這些\n364326\t378611\t有其他法律的適用有包括有刑法或者是設置法那如果設置法這裡面大概就是就是這些屬於行政不法的部分可以來做一個來做一個再更完整的一個修正好\n379791\t402124\t那這樣 好好好那幸好我們有透過口頭先質詢部長和署長我們今天這是您提供的書面報告我不曉得你這幾個樣態這幾個條文你是不是有不同的幕僚單位提供的狀態你可以很清楚的看到你們從第一項我們剛剛說這次有四項修正嘛那你的每一項裡面你都有很清楚的結論啊第一個這個\n405146\t428762\t這個跟行政院生性障礙公約聯合國生性障礙公約的這個相關的你的結論是建議刪除英雅人的規定那後面呢這個黃流的部分呢你的建議是不建議修正再來噪音的部分你也是不建議修正好但是到最後這個在跟騷的這個部分呢你所寫的部內意見是建議刪除本條款規定\n432239\t454547\t所以我們看起來我們是有點誤會啦沒關係 如果只是一個文字上用語的落差事實上部內是贊成說我們只是不贊成該委員提案修正我們不是要刪除社會法那我今天的質詢也是很有公諭因為我們造成了非常大的誤會 天大的誤會不希望有兩個不同的罰則啦\n455827\t483544\t不是表示說那個就是我們的不贊成的部分大概不一定是說我們全部的法律都不贊成你前面其實對委員的版本是相當有意見啦這個在於刑罰的這個橫平性啊等等的數額罰金數額你通通都不贊成嘛所以最後你是建議刪除本田委員好不要再佔用其他委員時間我們等一下還有修法的空間你能不能再明確的表態一次你對社委法第89條現在的意見現行版本以及委員修正版本您的意見是是我們的\n485405\t510168\t想法就是說一個行為不要有兩個不同的原則跟罰則啦那適用哪裡我們認為說目前委員如果要修正第89條的話那是不是可以就是適用以現在為主比較好不要再做修正所以你不贊成委員的提案版本建議保留現行條文是好謝謝部長我們剩下的下午再討論連主席都笑了大家都看不懂啊抱歉抱歉\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請部長部長有請\n委員長我們今天要來討論社會秩序維護法修正那剛剛也看到不管是您的口頭或者是書面提供的這個報告裡面呢其實對於這個大概有11位委員提出的版本當中已經都做了分類那這個分類我看到您這個大部分我們其實應該今天就是有不管是根據要\n對應聯合國身心障礙公約要來做修正或者是所謂的噪音啊黃牛甚至是這個後面跟騷這樣幾個部分內政部其實都明確表態了嘛你剛剛那幾個部分都有明確表態支持或不支持這樣的部分前面幾個部分我大概可以跟內政部採\n接近或相同的立場啦相同或接近的立場不過根於跟騷的這個部分我倒是想請教一下部長部長我們這個在這個書面報告當中已經提到多次就是說我們現在有部專法跟騷法上路了已經大概兩年了部長你可以先跟我們說明一下這兩年來內政部有沒有統計觀察覺得新法專法上路之後執行的狀況如何\n謝謝委員的關心跟蹤騷擾防治法當然主管機關也在是我們警政單位那從111年6月上任以來到上個月底3月底的時候警察機關受理的案件是8224件\n書面告誡是5409違反書面告誡有513也就是說超過八成以上的跟騷行為經過警察機關跟刑事調查程序以後已經有達到遏止的效果\n但是我們在處理的過程當中其實也持續的跟民間團體或是專家學者還有網路的這些相關的民眾處理有關於諮詢的會議發現到有一部分可能我們還需要做比較好的精進的措施所以就是這部專法立了以後對所謂跟騷跟蹤騷擾的這種行為樣態是有嚇止防制制止的效果沒有錯吧\n这部是有的但是他也应该值得精进那我想回过头来来跟部长讨论一下你看看我们这样两年多的时间我们受理了8224件核发的这个有书面告诫的这个部分是5409所以核发率是65.8那反过来就是说我就是希望能够得到一个这个申戒这个警告这样子的状态有被处理的嘛我的案件有被处理\n但顯然有大概三成左右的狀態是不被受理的那這是什麼樣的樣態回過頭來講我們看根梢法的第三條其實很明白的就定義了所謂這部專法根梢法它是以性或性別為處理的原則當時我還記得這個第十屆我們在處理這部專法的時候我也在這部我參與甚多當時就一樣是內政部警政署這邊說\n因為跟蹤騷擾的樣態太多了所以如果方方面面都要進入這部專法的話我們其實沒有辦法能夠處理所以我們要界定一個範圍就是性與性或性別有關係這樣的狀態所以簡單講\n我們有一部有效的專法了但這部專法是只有跟性或性別有關啊那剩下的樣態呢我看你的這個樣態裡面部長你應該也會同意嘛不合法討債啦或者是新聞跟蹤啊或者是還有很多種樣態是跟性或性別無關的跟蹤騷擾那這個部分怎麼處理\n目前我們可能採取其他的方式來處理比如說什麼 你的報告裡面有提到比如說涉違法涉違法不就是今天這部嘛 對不對所以您剛剛提到就是這三層的部分但是實際上的情形的話我可能要請執行機關來跟委員報告部長 妳說就是用\n社會法來處理嘛對你的報告裡面其實第一我為什麼跟你討論這個就是第一你現在在說社會上有各種糾纏跟蹤騷擾行為這種方式的寫法絕對不限於性或性別嘛對不對然後我們的這個能夠有的這個法制呢有刑事法律處罰或跟騷法性平三法家庭暴力法也沒有錯啊到這邊我都合理\n所以我就來問你那你為什麼這個我們現在剩下的一個就是社違法可是你最後的主張其實是認為這一條可以刪掉\n不是處罰 我在說處理 處理 處理啊內政部你的意見是本部要為 部長你剛剛正都要順著我的邏輯這樣下來以後我們現在唯一撇去性或性別的這一塊用性騷 性平三法來處理之後我們剩下的是刑法跟社會法沒有錯啊 到這裡都對可是我正式在跟你討論部內的意見是今天的修正要把社會法刪掉\n所以我不同意喔不是社委法刪掉就是修正的條文不是社委法刪掉所以你的主張是認為是來當然條文還是可以再跟委員一起考慮啦對但是您剛所提到就是這是我們的沒有注意到的一個面向因為你把跟燒法跟社委法來做比較的時候呢發現有這樣面向我們需要再做處理的話我想可以聽聽大院委員的建議我們來看看怎麼做最佳的處理\n那您剛所提的部分我是不是請署長跟你回答一下委員就是說這一個跟騷法主要跟性有關係那跟性沒有關係的這些跟騷的行為可以適用其他包括有像草寨的糾紛聚眾的滋擾、鄰里糾紛或記者的跟隨這些\n有其他法律的適用有包括有刑法或者是設置法那如果設置法這裡面大概就是就是這些屬於行政不法的部分可以來做一個來做一個再更完整的一個修正好\n那這樣 好好好那幸好我們有透過口頭先質詢部長和署長我們今天這是您提供的書面報告我不曉得你這幾個樣態這幾個條文你是不是有不同的幕僚單位提供的狀態你可以很清楚的看到你們從第一項我們剛剛說這次有四項修正嘛那你的每一項裡面你都有很清楚的結論啊第一個這個\n這個跟行政院生性障礙公約聯合國生性障礙公約的這個相關的你的結論是建議刪除英雅人的規定那後面呢這個黃流的部分呢你的建議是不建議修正再來噪音的部分你也是不建議修正好但是到最後這個在跟騷的這個部分呢你所寫的部內意見是建議刪除本條款規定\n所以我們看起來我們是有點誤會啦沒關係 如果只是一個文字上用語的落差事實上部內是贊成說我們只是不贊成該委員提案修正我們不是要刪除社會法那我今天的質詢也是很有公諭因為我們造成了非常大的誤會 天大的誤會不希望有兩個不同的罰則啦\n不是表示說那個就是我們的不贊成的部分大概不一定是說我們全部的法律都不贊成你前面其實對委員的版本是相當有意見啦這個在於刑罰的這個橫平性啊等等的數額罰金數額你通通都不贊成嘛所以最後你是建議刪除本田委員好不要再佔用其他委員時間我們等一下還有修法的空間你能不能再明確的表態一次你對社委法第89條現在的意見現行版本以及委員修正版本您的意見是是我們的\n想法就是說一個行為不要有兩個不同的原則跟罰則啦那適用哪裡我們認為說目前委員如果要修正第89條的話那是不是可以就是適用以現在為主比較好不要再做修正所以你不贊成委員的提案版本建議保留現行條文是好謝謝部長我們剩下的下午再討論連主席都笑了大家都看不懂啊抱歉抱歉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.792 --> 00:02.058\n好謝謝主席我們請部長部長有請\n\n00:09.673 --> 00:32.063\n委員長我們今天要來討論社會秩序維護法修正那剛剛也看到不管是您的口頭或者是書面提供的這個報告裡面呢其實對於這個大概有11位委員提出的版本當中已經都做了分類那這個分類我看到您這個大部分我們其實應該今天就是有不管是根據要\n\n00:34.385 --> 00:53.360\n對應聯合國身心障礙公約要來做修正或者是所謂的噪音啊黃牛甚至是這個後面跟騷這樣幾個部分內政部其實都明確表態了嘛你剛剛那幾個部分都有明確表態支持或不支持這樣的部分前面幾個部分我大概可以跟內政部採\n\n00:54.801 --> 01:03.325\n接近或相同的立場啦相同或接近的立場不過根於跟騷的這個部分我倒是想請教一下部長部長我們這個在這個書面報告當中已經提到多次就是說我們現在有部專法跟騷法上路了已經大概兩年了部長你可以先跟我們說明一下這兩年來內政部有沒有統計觀察覺得新法專法上路之後執行的狀況如何\n\n01:22.335 --> 01:35.725\n謝謝委員的關心跟蹤騷擾防治法當然主管機關也在是我們警政單位那從111年6月上任以來到上個月底3月底的時候警察機關受理的案件是8224件\n\n01:37.887 --> 01:40.088\n書面告誡是5409違反書面告誡有513也就是說超過八成以上的跟騷行為經過警察機關跟刑事調查程序以後已經有達到遏止的效果\n\n01:53.897 --> 01:58.839\n但是我們在處理的過程當中其實也持續的跟民間團體或是專家學者還有網路的這些相關的民眾處理有關於諮詢的會議發現到有一部分可能我們還需要做比較好的精進的措施所以就是這部專法立了以後對所謂跟騷跟蹤騷擾的這種行為樣態是有嚇止防制制止的效果沒有錯吧\n\n02:22.069 --> 02:50.907\n这部是有的但是他也应该值得精进那我想回过头来来跟部长讨论一下你看看我们这样两年多的时间我们受理了8224件核发的这个有书面告诫的这个部分是5409所以核发率是65.8那反过来就是说我就是希望能够得到一个这个申戒这个警告这样子的状态有被处理的嘛我的案件有被处理\n\n02:51.587 --> 02:56.330\n但顯然有大概三成左右的狀態是不被受理的那這是什麼樣的樣態回過頭來講我們看根梢法的第三條其實很明白的就定義了所謂這部專法根梢法它是以性或性別為處理的原則當時我還記得這個第十屆我們在處理這部專法的時候我也在這部我參與甚多當時就一樣是內政部警政署這邊說\n\n03:19.804 --> 03:32.559\n因為跟蹤騷擾的樣態太多了所以如果方方面面都要進入這部專法的話我們其實沒有辦法能夠處理所以我們要界定一個範圍就是性與性或性別有關係這樣的狀態所以簡單講\n\n03:35.362 --> 03:52.147\n我們有一部有效的專法了但這部專法是只有跟性或性別有關啊那剩下的樣態呢我看你的這個樣態裡面部長你應該也會同意嘛不合法討債啦或者是新聞跟蹤啊或者是還有很多種樣態是跟性或性別無關的跟蹤騷擾那這個部分怎麼處理\n\n03:54.648 --> 04:06.462\n目前我們可能採取其他的方式來處理比如說什麼你的報告裡面有提到比如說涉違法涉違法不就是今天這部嘛對不對所以您剛剛提到就是這三層的部分但是實際上的情形的話我可能要請執行機關來跟委員報告部長妳說就是用\n\n04:09.525 --> 04:36.107\n社會法來處理嘛對你的報告裡面其實第一我為什麼跟你討論這個就是第一你現在在說社會上有各種糾纏跟蹤騷擾行為這種方式的寫法絕對不限於性或性別嘛對不對然後我們的這個能夠有的這個法制呢有刑事法律處罰或跟騷法性平三法家庭暴力法也沒有錯啊到這邊我都合理\n\n04:37.108 --> 04:45.367\n所以我就來問你那你為什麼這個我們現在剩下的一個就是社違法可是你最後的主張其實是認為這一條可以刪掉\n\n04:49.192 --> 05:16.574\n不是處罰我在說處理處理處理啊內政部你的意見是本部要為部長你剛剛正都要順著我的邏輯這樣下來以後我們現在唯一撇去性或性別的這一塊用性騷性平三法來處理之後我們剩下的是刑法跟社會法沒有錯啊到這裡都對可是我正式在跟你討論部內的意見是今天的修正要把社會法刪掉\n\n05:17.675 --> 05:43.301\n所以我不同意喔不是社委法刪掉就是修正的條文不是社委法刪掉所以你的主張是認為是來當然條文還是可以再跟委員一起考慮啦對但是您剛所提到就是這是我們的沒有注意到的一個面向因為你把跟燒法跟社委法來做比較的時候呢發現有這樣面向我們需要再做處理的話我想可以聽聽大院委員的建議我們來看看怎麼做最佳的處理\n\n05:44.401 --> 06:00.545\n那您剛所提的部分我是不是請署長跟你回答一下委員就是說這一個跟騷法主要跟性有關係那跟性沒有關係的這些跟騷的行為可以適用其他包括有像草寨的糾紛聚眾的滋擾、鄰里糾紛或記者的跟隨這些\n\n06:04.326 --> 06:18.611\n有其他法律的適用有包括有刑法或者是設置法那如果設置法這裡面大概就是就是這些屬於行政不法的部分可以來做一個來做一個再更完整的一個修正好\n\n06:19.791 --> 06:42.124\n那這樣好好好那幸好我們有透過口頭先質詢部長和署長我們今天這是您提供的書面報告我不曉得你這幾個樣態這幾個條文你是不是有不同的幕僚單位提供的狀態你可以很清楚的看到你們從第一項我們剛剛說這次有四項修正嘛那你的每一項裡面你都有很清楚的結論啊第一個這個\n\n06:45.146 --> 07:08.762\n這個跟行政院生性障礙公約聯合國生性障礙公約的這個相關的你的結論是建議刪除英雅人的規定那後面呢這個黃流的部分呢你的建議是不建議修正再來噪音的部分你也是不建議修正好但是到最後這個在跟騷的這個部分呢你所寫的部內意見是建議刪除本條款規定\n\n07:12.239 --> 07:34.547\n所以我們看起來我們是有點誤會啦沒關係如果只是一個文字上用語的落差事實上部內是贊成說我們只是不贊成該委員提案修正我們不是要刪除社會法那我今天的質詢也是很有公諭因為我們造成了非常大的誤會天大的誤會不希望有兩個不同的罰則啦\n\n07:35.827 --> 08:03.544\n不是表示說那個就是我們的不贊成的部分大概不一定是說我們全部的法律都不贊成你前面其實對委員的版本是相當有意見啦這個在於刑罰的這個橫平性啊等等的數額罰金數額你通通都不贊成嘛所以最後你是建議刪除本田委員好不要再佔用其他委員時間我們等一下還有修法的空間你能不能再明確的表態一次你對社委法第89條現在的意見現行版本以及委員修正版本您的意見是是我們的\n\n08:05.405 --> 08:30.168\n想法就是說一個行為不要有兩個不同的原則跟罰則啦那適用哪裡我們認為說目前委員如果要修正第89條的話那是不是可以就是適用以現在為主比較好不要再做修正所以你不贊成委員的提案版本建議保留現行條文是好謝謝部長我們剩下的下午再討論連主席都笑了大家都看不懂啊抱歉抱歉\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.792,"end":2.058,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請部長部長有請"},{"start":9.673,"end":32.063,"text":"委員長我們今天要來討論社會秩序維護法修正那剛剛也看到不管是您的口頭或者是書面提供的這個報告裡面呢其實對於這個大概有11位委員提出的版本當中已經都做了分類那這個分類我看到您這個大部分我們其實應該今天就是有不管是根據要"},{"start":34.385,"end":53.36,"text":"對應聯合國身心障礙公約要來做修正或者是所謂的噪音啊黃牛甚至是這個後面跟騷這樣幾個部分內政部其實都明確表態了嘛你剛剛那幾個部分都有明確表態支持或不支持這樣的部分前面幾個部分我大概可以跟內政部採"},{"start":54.801,"end":63.325,"text":"接近或相同的立場啦相同或接近的立場不過根於跟騷的這個部分我倒是想請教一下部長部長我們這個在這個書面報告當中已經提到多次就是說我們現在有部專法跟騷法上路了已經大概兩年了部長你可以先跟我們說明一下這兩年來內政部有沒有統計觀察覺得新法專法上路之後執行的狀況如何"},{"start":82.335,"end":95.725,"text":"謝謝委員的關心跟蹤騷擾防治法當然主管機關也在是我們警政單位那從111年6月上任以來到上個月底3月底的時候警察機關受理的案件是8224件"},{"start":97.887,"end":100.088,"text":"書面告誡是5409違反書面告誡有513也就是說超過八成以上的跟騷行為經過警察機關跟刑事調查程序以後已經有達到遏止的效果"},{"start":113.897,"end":118.839,"text":"但是我們在處理的過程當中其實也持續的跟民間團體或是專家學者還有網路的這些相關的民眾處理有關於諮詢的會議發現到有一部分可能我們還需要做比較好的精進的措施所以就是這部專法立了以後對所謂跟騷跟蹤騷擾的這種行為樣態是有嚇止防制制止的效果沒有錯吧"},{"start":142.069,"end":170.907,"text":"这部是有的但是他也应该值得精进那我想回过头来来跟部长讨论一下你看看我们这样两年多的时间我们受理了8224件核发的这个有书面告诫的这个部分是5409所以核发率是65.8那反过来就是说我就是希望能够得到一个这个申戒这个警告这样子的状态有被处理的嘛我的案件有被处理"},{"start":171.587,"end":176.33,"text":"但顯然有大概三成左右的狀態是不被受理的那這是什麼樣的樣態回過頭來講我們看根梢法的第三條其實很明白的就定義了所謂這部專法根梢法它是以性或性別為處理的原則當時我還記得這個第十屆我們在處理這部專法的時候我也在這部我參與甚多當時就一樣是內政部警政署這邊說"},{"start":199.804,"end":212.559,"text":"因為跟蹤騷擾的樣態太多了所以如果方方面面都要進入這部專法的話我們其實沒有辦法能夠處理所以我們要界定一個範圍就是性與性或性別有關係這樣的狀態所以簡單講"},{"start":215.362,"end":232.147,"text":"我們有一部有效的專法了但這部專法是只有跟性或性別有關啊那剩下的樣態呢我看你的這個樣態裡面部長你應該也會同意嘛不合法討債啦或者是新聞跟蹤啊或者是還有很多種樣態是跟性或性別無關的跟蹤騷擾那這個部分怎麼處理"},{"start":234.648,"end":246.462,"text":"目前我們可能採取其他的方式來處理比如說什麼 你的報告裡面有提到比如說涉違法涉違法不就是今天這部嘛 對不對所以您剛剛提到就是這三層的部分但是實際上的情形的話我可能要請執行機關來跟委員報告部長 妳說就是用"},{"start":249.525,"end":276.107,"text":"社會法來處理嘛對你的報告裡面其實第一我為什麼跟你討論這個就是第一你現在在說社會上有各種糾纏跟蹤騷擾行為這種方式的寫法絕對不限於性或性別嘛對不對然後我們的這個能夠有的這個法制呢有刑事法律處罰或跟騷法性平三法家庭暴力法也沒有錯啊到這邊我都合理"},{"start":277.108,"end":285.367,"text":"所以我就來問你那你為什麼這個我們現在剩下的一個就是社違法可是你最後的主張其實是認為這一條可以刪掉"},{"start":289.192,"end":316.574,"text":"不是處罰 我在說處理 處理 處理啊內政部你的意見是本部要為 部長你剛剛正都要順著我的邏輯這樣下來以後我們現在唯一撇去性或性別的這一塊用性騷 性平三法來處理之後我們剩下的是刑法跟社會法沒有錯啊 到這裡都對可是我正式在跟你討論部內的意見是今天的修正要把社會法刪掉"},{"start":317.675,"end":343.301,"text":"所以我不同意喔不是社委法刪掉就是修正的條文不是社委法刪掉所以你的主張是認為是來當然條文還是可以再跟委員一起考慮啦對但是您剛所提到就是這是我們的沒有注意到的一個面向因為你把跟燒法跟社委法來做比較的時候呢發現有這樣面向我們需要再做處理的話我想可以聽聽大院委員的建議我們來看看怎麼做最佳的處理"},{"start":344.401,"end":360.545,"text":"那您剛所提的部分我是不是請署長跟你回答一下委員就是說這一個跟騷法主要跟性有關係那跟性沒有關係的這些跟騷的行為可以適用其他包括有像草寨的糾紛聚眾的滋擾、鄰里糾紛或記者的跟隨這些"},{"start":364.326,"end":378.611,"text":"有其他法律的適用有包括有刑法或者是設置法那如果設置法這裡面大概就是就是這些屬於行政不法的部分可以來做一個來做一個再更完整的一個修正好"},{"start":379.791,"end":402.124,"text":"那這樣 好好好那幸好我們有透過口頭先質詢部長和署長我們今天這是您提供的書面報告我不曉得你這幾個樣態這幾個條文你是不是有不同的幕僚單位提供的狀態你可以很清楚的看到你們從第一項我們剛剛說這次有四項修正嘛那你的每一項裡面你都有很清楚的結論啊第一個這個"},{"start":405.146,"end":428.762,"text":"這個跟行政院生性障礙公約聯合國生性障礙公約的這個相關的你的結論是建議刪除英雅人的規定那後面呢這個黃流的部分呢你的建議是不建議修正再來噪音的部分你也是不建議修正好但是到最後這個在跟騷的這個部分呢你所寫的部內意見是建議刪除本條款規定"},{"start":432.239,"end":454.547,"text":"所以我們看起來我們是有點誤會啦沒關係 如果只是一個文字上用語的落差事實上部內是贊成說我們只是不贊成該委員提案修正我們不是要刪除社會法那我今天的質詢也是很有公諭因為我們造成了非常大的誤會 天大的誤會不希望有兩個不同的罰則啦"},{"start":455.827,"end":483.544,"text":"不是表示說那個就是我們的不贊成的部分大概不一定是說我們全部的法律都不贊成你前面其實對委員的版本是相當有意見啦這個在於刑罰的這個橫平性啊等等的數額罰金數額你通通都不贊成嘛所以最後你是建議刪除本田委員好不要再佔用其他委員時間我們等一下還有修法的空間你能不能再明確的表態一次你對社委法第89條現在的意見現行版本以及委員修正版本您的意見是是我們的"},{"start":485.405,"end":510.168,"text":"想法就是說一個行為不要有兩個不同的原則跟罰則啦那適用哪裡我們認為說目前委員如果要修正第89條的話那是不是可以就是適用以現在為主比較好不要再做修正所以你不贊成委員的提案版本建議保留現行條文是好謝謝部長我們剩下的下午再討論連主席都笑了大家都看不懂啊抱歉抱歉"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":295,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時26分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。我們今天要來討論社會秩序維護法的修正，我們剛剛也看到，不管是在您的口頭或者是提供的書面報告裡面，其實大概對11位委員所提版本已經都有做了分類，我們今天不管是要對應聯合國通過的身心障礙者權利公約來做修正，或者是所謂的噪音、黃牛，甚至是跟騷，對這幾個部分內政部其實都明確表態了，你剛剛對那幾個部分都有明確表態支持或不支持。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對前面幾個部分我大概可以跟內政部採相同或接近的立場，不過關於跟騷這個部分，我倒是想請教一下部長，在這個書面報告當中已經多次提到我們現在有一個專法也就是跟騷法，上路已經大概兩年了，部長，請你先跟我們說明一下，這兩年來內政部有沒有統計、觀察？你們覺得這個新的專法上路之後執行的狀況如何？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，跟蹤騷擾防制法當然主管機關也是我們警政單位，從111年6月上路以來到3月底，警察機關受理的案件是8,224件。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，跟我們的資料是一樣的。"],["劉部長世芳：書面告誡是5,409件，違反書面告誡有513件，也就是說，超過八成以上的跟騷行為經過警察機關跟刑事調查程序以後，已經有達到遏止的效果。我們在處理的過程當中，其實也持續地跟民間團體、專家學者還有網路上這些相關的民眾處理有關於諮詢的會議，發現有一部分可能我們還需要做比較好的精進措施。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以就是在立了這部專法以後，對於所謂跟蹤騷擾的這種行為樣態是有嚇阻、防制、制止的效果，沒有錯嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是，目前是這樣子。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是它也應該要精進。那我想回過頭來跟部長討論一下，你看我們這樣兩年多的時間受理了8,224件，有核發書面告誡的是5,409件，核發率是65.8%，所以我希望能夠予以告誡、警告，這樣的狀態有被處理了，我的案件有被處理了，但是反過來看，就是顯然有大概三成左右是不被受理的。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那這是什麼樣的樣態？回過頭來講，我們看跟騷法的第三條，其實就很明白地定義了，這部專法──跟騷法是以性或性別為處理的原則，我還記得在第10屆處理這部專法的時候，我也在啊！對這部法律我參與甚多，當時就一樣是內政部警政署這邊說，因為跟蹤騷擾的樣態太多了，如果方方面面都要進到這部專法的話，我們其實沒有辦法能夠處理，所以我們要界定一個範圍，就是與性或性別有關係這樣的狀態。簡單講，我們有一部有效的專法了，但這部專法是只有跟性或性別有關，那剩下的樣態呢？我看到在你說的這些樣態裡面，部長，你應該也會同意，像不合法討債、新聞跟蹤等很多種樣態是跟性或性別無關的跟蹤騷擾，那這個部分要怎麼處理？"],["劉部長世芳：目前我們可能採取其他的方式來處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：比如說什麼？在你的報告裡面有提到……"],["劉部長世芳：譬如說社維法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：社維法不就是今天要討論的這部法律，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，您剛剛提到這三成的部分，關於實際上的情形，我可能要請執行機關來跟委員報告。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，你說就是用社維法來處理，我為什麼要跟你討論這個？第一，你現在說社會上有各種糾纏、跟蹤騷擾行為，這種方式的寫法絕對不限於性或性別嘛，對不對？然後我們能夠有的法制包括刑事法律處罰或跟騷法、性平三法、家庭暴力防治法，也沒有錯啊！到這邊我都覺得合理。所以我就來問你，我們現在剩下的一個就是社維法，可是你最後的主張其實是認為這一條可以刪掉欸！"],["劉部長世芳：那個是處罰的罰則……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不是處罰，我是在說處理啊！內政部的意見是本部認為……部長，順著我的邏輯這樣下來以後，我們現在唯一撇去性或性別的這一塊是用性騷、性平三法來處理之後，我們剩下的是刑法跟社維法，沒有錯啊！到這裡都對，可是我正式在跟你討論，部內的意見是今天的修正要把社維法刪掉，所以我不同意喔！"],["劉部長世芳：不是社維法刪掉，這是修正的條文，不是社維法刪掉。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你的主張是怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：當然對條文還是可以再跟委員一起考慮。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["劉部長世芳：但是您剛剛所提到的，這是我們沒有注意到的一個面向，因為你把跟騷法跟社維法來做比較的時候，發現有這樣的面向，如果我們需要再做處理的話，我想可以聽聽大院委員的建議，我們來看看怎麼做最佳的處理，關於您剛剛所提的部分，我是不是請署長回答委員？"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，署長，你回答一下。"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個跟騷法主要是跟性有關係的，那跟性沒有關係的這些跟騷行為，像討債的糾紛、聚眾的滋擾、鄰里糾紛或記者的跟追，這些有其他法律的適用，包括刑法或社秩法，在社秩法裡面大概就是這些屬於行政不法的部分可以來做一個更完整的修正。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，幸好我們有先口頭質詢部長和署長，這是你們今天提供的書面報告，裡面有這幾個樣態、這幾個條文，我不曉得是不是由不同的幕僚單位所提供的，你可以很清楚地看到，我們剛剛說這次有四項修正，那你在每一項裡面都有很清楚的結論，第一個是跟聯合國通過的身心障礙權利公約相關的，你的結論是建議刪除瘖啞人的規定；那後面這個黃牛的部分，你的結論是不建議修正；再來是噪音的部分，你也是不建議修正；但是到最後這個跟騷的部分，你所寫的部內意見是建議刪除本條款規定。看起來我們是有點誤會啦！沒關係，如果只是一個文字用語的落差，事實上部內是說我們只是不贊成該委員提案修正，我們不是要刪除社維法，那我今天的質詢也是很有功用。"],["劉部長世芳：對，因為我們不希望……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這造成了非常大的誤會、天大的誤會。"],["劉部長世芳：我們不希望有兩個不同的罰則，就是我們不贊成的部分，不一定是說我們對全部的罰則都不贊成。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你前面其實對委員的版本是相當有意見，就是在於刑罰的衡平性等等，包括罰金數額，你通通都不贊成嘛！所以最後你是建議刪除本條款。好，我不要再占用其他委員的時間，我們等一下還有修法的空間，你能不能再明確的表態一次你對社維法第八十九條的意見？你對於現行版本以及委員修正的版本的意見是怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的想法是一個行為不要有兩個不同的原則和罰則。至於適用哪裡，我們認為委員如果要修正第八十九條的話，是不是可以適用以現在為主比較好，不要再做修正。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你不贊成委員的提案版本，建議保留現行條文？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長，剩下的我們下午再討論，連主席都笑了，大家都看不懂啦！"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉！抱歉！"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員的質詢。","下一位請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}}