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\"end\": 154.913, \"text\": \"都有可能就是因為他的內文的這個要件非常不明確所以我擔心的是說到時候有可能變成這些可能你認為這個是不是有可能他只是在網路上轉賣而已你就全部都跑去檢舉那變成說到時候社會法放到這邊然後大家還是要分回各個主管機關去認定說這個到底有沒有違反黃牛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 132.776, \"end\": 132.936, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 132.936, \"end\": 134.237, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 134.237, \"end\": 134.497, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 134.497, \"end\": 134.718, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 134.718, \"end\": 134.858, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 134.858, \"end\": 134.978, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 134.978, \"end\": 135.098, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 135.098, \"end\": 135.758, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 135.758, \"end\": 136.439, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 136.439, \"end\": 136.679, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 136.679, \"end\": 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\"text\": \"所以他最後還是會回歸文創法回歸運發條例啊再者其實文創法跟運發條例裡面的罰金的罰則是很重的耶五倍到五十倍也就是說我剛說五千塊他要罰五萬到二十五萬可是在社會法裡面罰多少一萬八\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 156.334, \"end\": 156.474, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 156.474, \"end\": 156.494, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 156.494, \"end\": 156.674, \"score\": 0.643}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 156.674, \"end\": 156.874, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 156.874, \"end\": 157.014, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 157.014, \"end\": 157.274, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 157.274, \"end\": 157.694, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"歸\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 157.694, \"end\": 158.175, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 158.175, \"end\": 158.595, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 158.595, \"end\": 159.655, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"歸\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, 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\"然後像這是現在最重的他們只加到三萬八就再怎麼罰都不會比原本這個文創法和運發條例還重啊那也就是說真的有心要犯法的黃牛你又視為法反而是清代他了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 177.12, \"end\": 177.24, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 177.24, \"end\": 177.361, \"score\": 0.588}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 177.361, \"end\": 177.661, \"score\": 0.547}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 177.661, \"end\": 177.961, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 177.961, \"end\": 178.202, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 178.202, \"end\": 178.422, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 178.422, \"end\": 178.622, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 178.622, \"end\": 178.762, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 178.762, \"end\": 179.083, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 179.083, \"end\": 179.263, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 179.263, \"end\": 179.563, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 211.297, \"end\": 211.938, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 211.938, \"end\": 212.198, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 212.198, \"end\": 212.358, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 212.358, \"end\": 212.458, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 212.458, \"end\": 213.579, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 213.579, \"end\": 213.74, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 213.74, \"end\": 213.94, \"score\": 0.48}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 213.94, \"end\": 213.98, \"score\": 0.031}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 213.98, \"end\": 214.2, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 214.2, \"end\": 214.38, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 214.38, \"end\": 214.4, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 214.4, 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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 400.022, \"end\": 401.363, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 401.363, \"end\": 401.483, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 401.483, \"end\": 401.703, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 401.703, \"end\": 401.723, \"score\": 0.35}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 401.723, \"end\": 401.823, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 401.823, \"end\": 401.843, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"師\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:12,283\n主席我們請部長跟署長劉部長張署長有請因為其實剛剛很多委員都講得很清楚了那我在這邊先請教署長署長知道黃牛的定義是什麼嗎\n\n2\n00:00:13,314 --> 00:00:19,936\n黃牛就是說你那個買票之後會加價加價轉售給他人賺取這中間的這個這個這個價差這個就是基本的黃牛好謝謝署長其實說得很明確黃牛是要買票之後有加價的行為就是你從中有獲得盈利嗎你有圖利嗎\n\n3\n00:00:34,119 --> 00:00:57,045\n可是在這個目前涉違法裡面我看到的要件很可能會造成說你該罰的罰不到但是不該罰的很可能誤罰怎麼說呢因為其實二手票的流通我們並沒有禁止例如說我今天生病有事不能去那我在網路上我想要請人家去收購但是低於市價或者是說看有沒有折價賣或者是原價賣這個有這是黃牛嗎不是吧\n\n4\n00:01:01,946 --> 00:01:08,250\n這個應該不是就是說你的原價或低價的話這個是沒辦法處罰的沒錯這個是因為黃牛的定義非常明確所以當初我們在修文創法在修運發條例的時候裡面的條文是怎麼寫的必須要超過票面金額或者是定價的售價要超過這個才可以去處罰\n\n5\n00:01:26,380 --> 00:01:46,431\n那可是在社會法裡面怎麼寫的現在大家要修的是說意圖轉售圖利那意圖轉售圖利包括的範圍很可能不只是高於票券那如果他低於票券他可能先低價去收購那我再轉售但是轉售的金額還是低於定價低於市價可不可以\n\n6\n00:01:47,236 --> 00:02:11,142\n不清楚我想這個就是定義上比較沒有清楚沒錯所以反而社違法裡面的定義跟要件非常的不明確很可能我在臉書上只是因為說喔原價五千塊的演唱會的票券那我因為我臨時不能去我轉售那中間可能加了這個轉匯款的三十塊那這樣是不是有可能會被拿去檢舉然後很可能拿去誤罰\n\n7\n00:02:12,776 --> 00:02:34,913\n都有可能就是因為他的內文的這個要件非常不明確所以我擔心的是說到時候有可能變成這些可能你認為這個是不是有可能他只是在網路上轉賣而已你就全部都跑去檢舉那變成說到時候社會法放到這邊然後大家還是要分回各個主管機關去認定說這個到底有沒有違反黃牛\n\n8\n00:02:36,334 --> 00:02:55,500\n所以他最後還是會回歸文創法回歸運發條例啊再者其實文創法跟運發條例裡面的罰金的罰則是很重的耶五倍到五十倍也就是說我剛說五千塊他要罰五萬到二十五萬可是在社會法裡面罰多少一萬八\n\n9\n00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:13,881\n然後像這是現在最重的他們只加到三萬八就再怎麼罰都不會比原本這個文創法和運發條例還重啊那也就是說真的有心要犯法的黃牛你又視為法反而是清代他了\n\n10\n00:03:14,582 --> 00:03:37,003\n那最後不管怎麼樣主管機關都是例如說演唱會一定是文化部嘛然後如果是運動賽事一定是這個教育部對所以這個主管機關也都很明確然後要件也很明確了罰則也很重了所以怎麼樣我們討論下來都知道說那我們今天到底在這裡修這個社會法是做什麼用\n\n11\n00:03:38,891 --> 00:04:07,868\n所以我最大的疑惑是这个我不知道我们在今天修完这个第一个罚不到第二个罚比较轻第三个误罚别人所以今天审完我不知道说我们在社会法里面要去处理黄牛这件事情到底用意为何所以我觉得像洪璐刚刚委员讲的很可能变成是多此一举然后白忙一场我担心的是这个啦所以如果真的要处理黄牛我当然希望说现在第一个演唱会票卷已经有了\n\n12\n00:04:08,388 --> 00:04:27,437\n第二個運動賽事也有了那其他針對醫療或是其他遊樂相關的更多範圍的我們就訂更多的專法今天衛福部也在這裡如果是針對醫療的衛福部是不是要訂專法處理這個如果是有醫療票券轉售變成是類似黃牛的行為這個還要去釐清啊\n\n13\n00:04:29,358 --> 00:04:58,037\n然後其他遊樂票券如果是交通部底下類似觀光署管轄的一些遊樂票券那這個交通部可以去討論是不是應該有專法來處理這件事情我非常痛恨黃牛我要先講因為就是網路上真的太多這種黃牛我收到超多陳情再加上我這邊有很多年輕人是喜歡看演唱會喜歡看賽事的然後常常來跟我說黃牛大家都很討厭所以我們才訂了文創法\n\n14\n00:05:00,139 --> 00:05:27,521\n運發條例那現在所以我不知道說我們今天要回來討論這個社違法的用意到底為何那最後我還是要講一下這個跟騷的部分因為其實今天除了說討論黃牛還有處理跟騷嘛那這個跟騷如果要改這個文字說無正當理由跟追他人改成無正當理由跟蹤或騷擾他人我不知道說這邊署長知不知此\n\n15\n00:05:29,272 --> 00:05:43,638\n這個部分我是覺得就是已經也有專法在做執行所以我們也建議做適用專法來做一個依據所以如果真的有類似這個根梢的行為最後還是會回歸根梢法處理是嗎對\n\n16\n00:05:45,313 --> 00:06:12,501\n是的所以我在這邊也是再次強調既然都已經有跟騷法了我不知道說我們社會法這邊修這個的用意為何因為最後開罰的依據一定還是跟騷法裡面這個很明確的定義嗎包括跟騷法裡面的定義是什麼呢就是必須要反覆或持續的跟蹤他人然後必須跟性或性別相關所以這個要件都要非常的明確然後有這樣的專法來開罰這個\n\n17\n00:06:15,843 --> 00:06:41,843\n當事人對嗎對所以在這邊我認為說今天的這相關的修法看似是沒有什麼必要啦那其實該開法的依據也都有了那當然我還是希望大家可以針對這個黃牛的行為我們可以做更完善的規範包括我剛剛講的衛福部交通部如果還沒有相關專法的也可以考慮來擬定好以上建議謝謝好謝謝老師\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t12283\t主席我們請部長跟署長劉部長張署長有請因為其實剛剛很多委員都講得很清楚了那我在這邊先請教署長署長知道黃牛的定義是什麼嗎\n13314\t19936\t黃牛就是說你那個買票之後會加價加價轉售給他人賺取這中間的這個這個這個價差這個就是基本的黃牛好謝謝署長其實說得很明確黃牛是要買票之後有加價的行為就是你從中有獲得盈利嗎你有圖利嗎\n34119\t57045\t可是在這個目前涉違法裡面我看到的要件很可能會造成說你該罰的罰不到但是不該罰的很可能誤罰怎麼說呢因為其實二手票的流通我們並沒有禁止例如說我今天生病有事不能去那我在網路上我想要請人家去收購但是低於市價或者是說看有沒有折價賣或者是原價賣這個有這是黃牛嗎不是吧\n61946\t68250\t這個應該不是 就是說你的原價或低價的話 這個是沒辦法處罰的沒錯 這個是因為黃牛的定義非常明確所以當初我們在修文創法 在修運發條例的時候裡面的條文是怎麼寫的 必須要超過票面金額或者是定價的售價 要超過這個才可以去處罰\n86380\t106431\t那可是在社會法裡面怎麼寫的現在大家要修的是說意圖轉售圖利那意圖轉售圖利包括的範圍很可能不只是高於票券那如果他低於票券他可能先低價去收購那我再轉售但是轉售的金額還是低於定價低於市價可不可以\n107236\t131142\t不清楚我想這個就是定義上比較沒有清楚沒錯 所以反而社違法裡面的定義跟要件非常的不明確很可能我在臉書上只是因為說 喔原價五千塊的演唱會的票券那我因為我臨時不能去我轉售那中間可能加了這個轉匯款的三十塊那這樣是不是有可能會被拿去檢舉然後很可能拿去誤罰\n132776\t154913\t都有可能就是因為他的內文的這個要件非常不明確所以我擔心的是說到時候有可能變成這些可能你認為這個是不是有可能他只是在網路上轉賣而已你就全部都跑去檢舉那變成說到時候社會法放到這邊然後大家還是要分回各個主管機關去認定說這個到底有沒有違反黃牛\n156334\t175500\t所以他最後還是會回歸文創法回歸運發條例啊再者其實文創法跟運發條例裡面的罰金的罰則是很重的耶五倍到五十倍也就是說我剛說五千塊他要罰五萬到二十五萬可是在社會法裡面罰多少一萬八\n177120\t193881\t然後像這是現在最重的他們只加到三萬八就再怎麼罰都不會比原本這個文創法和運發條例還重啊那也就是說真的有心要犯法的黃牛你又視為法反而是清代他了\n194582\t217003\t那最後不管怎麼樣主管機關都是例如說演唱會一定是文化部嘛然後如果是運動賽事一定是這個教育部對所以這個主管機關也都很明確然後要件也很明確了罰則也很重了所以怎麼樣我們討論下來都知道說那我們今天到底在這裡修這個社會法是做什麼用\n218891\t247868\t所以我最大的疑惑是这个我不知道我们在今天修完这个第一个罚不到第二个罚比较轻第三个误罚别人所以今天审完我不知道说我们在社会法里面要去处理黄牛这件事情到底用意为何所以我觉得像洪璐刚刚委员讲的很可能变成是多此一举然后白忙一场我担心的是这个啦所以如果真的要处理黄牛我当然希望说现在第一个演唱会票卷已经有了\n248388\t267437\t第二個運動賽事也有了那其他針對醫療或是其他遊樂相關的更多範圍的我們就訂更多的專法今天衛福部也在這裡如果是針對醫療的衛福部是不是要訂專法處理這個如果是有醫療票券轉售變成是類似黃牛的行為這個還要去釐清啊\n269358\t298037\t然後其他遊樂票券如果是交通部底下類似觀光署管轄的一些遊樂票券那這個交通部可以去討論是不是應該有專法來處理這件事情我非常痛恨黃牛我要先講因為就是網路上真的太多這種黃牛我收到超多陳情再加上我這邊有很多年輕人是喜歡看演唱會喜歡看賽事的然後常常來跟我說黃牛大家都很討厭所以我們才訂了文創法\n300139\t327521\t運發條例那現在所以我不知道說我們今天要回來討論這個社違法的用意到底為何那最後我還是要講一下這個跟騷的部分因為其實今天除了說討論黃牛還有處理跟騷嘛那這個跟騷如果要改這個文字說無正當理由跟追他人改成無正當理由跟蹤或騷擾他人我不知道說這邊署長知不知此\n329272\t343638\t這個部分我是覺得就是已經也有專法在做執行所以我們也建議做適用專法來做一個依據所以如果真的有類似這個根梢的行為最後還是會回歸根梢法處理是嗎對\n345313\t372501\t是的所以我在這邊也是再次強調既然都已經有跟騷法了我不知道說我們社會法這邊修這個的用意為何因為最後開罰的依據一定還是跟騷法裡面這個很明確的定義嗎包括跟騷法裡面的定義是什麼呢就是必須要反覆或持續的跟蹤他人然後必須跟性或性別相關所以這個要件都要非常的明確然後有這樣的專法來開罰這個\n375843\t401843\t當事人對嗎對所以在這邊我認為說今天的這相關的修法看似是沒有什麼必要啦那其實該開法的依據也都有了那當然我還是希望大家可以針對這個黃牛的行為我們可以做更完善的規範包括我剛剛講的衛福部交通部如果還沒有相關專法的也可以考慮來擬定好以上建議謝謝好謝謝老師\n","txt":"主席我們請部長跟署長劉部長張署長有請因為其實剛剛很多委員都講得很清楚了那我在這邊先請教署長署長知道黃牛的定義是什麼嗎\n黃牛就是說你那個買票之後會加價加價轉售給他人賺取這中間的這個這個這個價差這個就是基本的黃牛好謝謝署長其實說得很明確黃牛是要買票之後有加價的行為就是你從中有獲得盈利嗎你有圖利嗎\n可是在這個目前涉違法裡面我看到的要件很可能會造成說你該罰的罰不到但是不該罰的很可能誤罰怎麼說呢因為其實二手票的流通我們並沒有禁止例如說我今天生病有事不能去那我在網路上我想要請人家去收購但是低於市價或者是說看有沒有折價賣或者是原價賣這個有這是黃牛嗎不是吧\n這個應該不是 就是說你的原價或低價的話 這個是沒辦法處罰的沒錯 這個是因為黃牛的定義非常明確所以當初我們在修文創法 在修運發條例的時候裡面的條文是怎麼寫的 必須要超過票面金額或者是定價的售價 要超過這個才可以去處罰\n那可是在社會法裡面怎麼寫的現在大家要修的是說意圖轉售圖利那意圖轉售圖利包括的範圍很可能不只是高於票券那如果他低於票券他可能先低價去收購那我再轉售但是轉售的金額還是低於定價低於市價可不可以\n不清楚我想這個就是定義上比較沒有清楚沒錯 所以反而社違法裡面的定義跟要件非常的不明確很可能我在臉書上只是因為說 喔原價五千塊的演唱會的票券那我因為我臨時不能去我轉售那中間可能加了這個轉匯款的三十塊那這樣是不是有可能會被拿去檢舉然後很可能拿去誤罰\n都有可能就是因為他的內文的這個要件非常不明確所以我擔心的是說到時候有可能變成這些可能你認為這個是不是有可能他只是在網路上轉賣而已你就全部都跑去檢舉那變成說到時候社會法放到這邊然後大家還是要分回各個主管機關去認定說這個到底有沒有違反黃牛\n所以他最後還是會回歸文創法回歸運發條例啊再者其實文創法跟運發條例裡面的罰金的罰則是很重的耶五倍到五十倍也就是說我剛說五千塊他要罰五萬到二十五萬可是在社會法裡面罰多少一萬八\n然後像這是現在最重的他們只加到三萬八就再怎麼罰都不會比原本這個文創法和運發條例還重啊那也就是說真的有心要犯法的黃牛你又視為法反而是清代他了\n那最後不管怎麼樣主管機關都是例如說演唱會一定是文化部嘛然後如果是運動賽事一定是這個教育部對所以這個主管機關也都很明確然後要件也很明確了罰則也很重了所以怎麼樣我們討論下來都知道說那我們今天到底在這裡修這個社會法是做什麼用\n所以我最大的疑惑是这个我不知道我们在今天修完这个第一个罚不到第二个罚比较轻第三个误罚别人所以今天审完我不知道说我们在社会法里面要去处理黄牛这件事情到底用意为何所以我觉得像洪璐刚刚委员讲的很可能变成是多此一举然后白忙一场我担心的是这个啦所以如果真的要处理黄牛我当然希望说现在第一个演唱会票卷已经有了\n第二個運動賽事也有了那其他針對醫療或是其他遊樂相關的更多範圍的我們就訂更多的專法今天衛福部也在這裡如果是針對醫療的衛福部是不是要訂專法處理這個如果是有醫療票券轉售變成是類似黃牛的行為這個還要去釐清啊\n然後其他遊樂票券如果是交通部底下類似觀光署管轄的一些遊樂票券那這個交通部可以去討論是不是應該有專法來處理這件事情我非常痛恨黃牛我要先講因為就是網路上真的太多這種黃牛我收到超多陳情再加上我這邊有很多年輕人是喜歡看演唱會喜歡看賽事的然後常常來跟我說黃牛大家都很討厭所以我們才訂了文創法\n運發條例那現在所以我不知道說我們今天要回來討論這個社違法的用意到底為何那最後我還是要講一下這個跟騷的部分因為其實今天除了說討論黃牛還有處理跟騷嘛那這個跟騷如果要改這個文字說無正當理由跟追他人改成無正當理由跟蹤或騷擾他人我不知道說這邊署長知不知此\n這個部分我是覺得就是已經也有專法在做執行所以我們也建議做適用專法來做一個依據所以如果真的有類似這個根梢的行為最後還是會回歸根梢法處理是嗎對\n是的所以我在這邊也是再次強調既然都已經有跟騷法了我不知道說我們社會法這邊修這個的用意為何因為最後開罰的依據一定還是跟騷法裡面這個很明確的定義嗎包括跟騷法裡面的定義是什麼呢就是必須要反覆或持續的跟蹤他人然後必須跟性或性別相關所以這個要件都要非常的明確然後有這樣的專法來開罰這個\n當事人對嗎對所以在這邊我認為說今天的這相關的修法看似是沒有什麼必要啦那其實該開法的依據也都有了那當然我還是希望大家可以針對這個黃牛的行為我們可以做更完善的規範包括我剛剛講的衛福部交通部如果還沒有相關專法的也可以考慮來擬定好以上建議謝謝好謝謝老師\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:12.283\n主席我們請部長跟署長劉部長張署長有請因為其實剛剛很多委員都講得很清楚了那我在這邊先請教署長署長知道黃牛的定義是什麼嗎\n\n00:13.314 --> 00:19.936\n黃牛就是說你那個買票之後會加價加價轉售給他人賺取這中間的這個這個這個價差這個就是基本的黃牛好謝謝署長其實說得很明確黃牛是要買票之後有加價的行為就是你從中有獲得盈利嗎你有圖利嗎\n\n00:34.119 --> 00:57.045\n可是在這個目前涉違法裡面我看到的要件很可能會造成說你該罰的罰不到但是不該罰的很可能誤罰怎麼說呢因為其實二手票的流通我們並沒有禁止例如說我今天生病有事不能去那我在網路上我想要請人家去收購但是低於市價或者是說看有沒有折價賣或者是原價賣這個有這是黃牛嗎不是吧\n\n01:01.946 --> 01:08.250\n這個應該不是就是說你的原價或低價的話這個是沒辦法處罰的沒錯這個是因為黃牛的定義非常明確所以當初我們在修文創法在修運發條例的時候裡面的條文是怎麼寫的必須要超過票面金額或者是定價的售價要超過這個才可以去處罰\n\n01:26.380 --> 01:46.431\n那可是在社會法裡面怎麼寫的現在大家要修的是說意圖轉售圖利那意圖轉售圖利包括的範圍很可能不只是高於票券那如果他低於票券他可能先低價去收購那我再轉售但是轉售的金額還是低於定價低於市價可不可以\n\n01:47.236 --> 02:11.142\n不清楚我想這個就是定義上比較沒有清楚沒錯所以反而社違法裡面的定義跟要件非常的不明確很可能我在臉書上只是因為說喔原價五千塊的演唱會的票券那我因為我臨時不能去我轉售那中間可能加了這個轉匯款的三十塊那這樣是不是有可能會被拿去檢舉然後很可能拿去誤罰\n\n02:12.776 --> 02:34.913\n都有可能就是因為他的內文的這個要件非常不明確所以我擔心的是說到時候有可能變成這些可能你認為這個是不是有可能他只是在網路上轉賣而已你就全部都跑去檢舉那變成說到時候社會法放到這邊然後大家還是要分回各個主管機關去認定說這個到底有沒有違反黃牛\n\n02:36.334 --> 02:55.500\n所以他最後還是會回歸文創法回歸運發條例啊再者其實文創法跟運發條例裡面的罰金的罰則是很重的耶五倍到五十倍也就是說我剛說五千塊他要罰五萬到二十五萬可是在社會法裡面罰多少一萬八\n\n02:57.120 --> 03:13.881\n然後像這是現在最重的他們只加到三萬八就再怎麼罰都不會比原本這個文創法和運發條例還重啊那也就是說真的有心要犯法的黃牛你又視為法反而是清代他了\n\n03:14.582 --> 03:37.003\n那最後不管怎麼樣主管機關都是例如說演唱會一定是文化部嘛然後如果是運動賽事一定是這個教育部對所以這個主管機關也都很明確然後要件也很明確了罰則也很重了所以怎麼樣我們討論下來都知道說那我們今天到底在這裡修這個社會法是做什麼用\n\n03:38.891 --> 04:07.868\n所以我最大的疑惑是这个我不知道我们在今天修完这个第一个罚不到第二个罚比较轻第三个误罚别人所以今天审完我不知道说我们在社会法里面要去处理黄牛这件事情到底用意为何所以我觉得像洪璐刚刚委员讲的很可能变成是多此一举然后白忙一场我担心的是这个啦所以如果真的要处理黄牛我当然希望说现在第一个演唱会票卷已经有了\n\n04:08.388 --> 04:27.437\n第二個運動賽事也有了那其他針對醫療或是其他遊樂相關的更多範圍的我們就訂更多的專法今天衛福部也在這裡如果是針對醫療的衛福部是不是要訂專法處理這個如果是有醫療票券轉售變成是類似黃牛的行為這個還要去釐清啊\n\n04:29.358 --> 04:58.037\n然後其他遊樂票券如果是交通部底下類似觀光署管轄的一些遊樂票券那這個交通部可以去討論是不是應該有專法來處理這件事情我非常痛恨黃牛我要先講因為就是網路上真的太多這種黃牛我收到超多陳情再加上我這邊有很多年輕人是喜歡看演唱會喜歡看賽事的然後常常來跟我說黃牛大家都很討厭所以我們才訂了文創法\n\n05:00.139 --> 05:27.521\n運發條例那現在所以我不知道說我們今天要回來討論這個社違法的用意到底為何那最後我還是要講一下這個跟騷的部分因為其實今天除了說討論黃牛還有處理跟騷嘛那這個跟騷如果要改這個文字說無正當理由跟追他人改成無正當理由跟蹤或騷擾他人我不知道說這邊署長知不知此\n\n05:29.272 --> 05:43.638\n這個部分我是覺得就是已經也有專法在做執行所以我們也建議做適用專法來做一個依據所以如果真的有類似這個根梢的行為最後還是會回歸根梢法處理是嗎對\n\n05:45.313 --> 06:12.501\n是的所以我在這邊也是再次強調既然都已經有跟騷法了我不知道說我們社會法這邊修這個的用意為何因為最後開罰的依據一定還是跟騷法裡面這個很明確的定義嗎包括跟騷法裡面的定義是什麼呢就是必須要反覆或持續的跟蹤他人然後必須跟性或性別相關所以這個要件都要非常的明確然後有這樣的專法來開罰這個\n\n06:15.843 --> 06:41.843\n當事人對嗎對所以在這邊我認為說今天的這相關的修法看似是沒有什麼必要啦那其實該開法的依據也都有了那當然我還是希望大家可以針對這個黃牛的行為我們可以做更完善的規範包括我剛剛講的衛福部交通部如果還沒有相關專法的也可以考慮來擬定好以上建議謝謝好謝謝老師\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":12.283,"text":"主席我們請部長跟署長劉部長張署長有請因為其實剛剛很多委員都講得很清楚了那我在這邊先請教署長署長知道黃牛的定義是什麼嗎"},{"start":13.314,"end":19.936,"text":"黃牛就是說你那個買票之後會加價加價轉售給他人賺取這中間的這個這個這個價差這個就是基本的黃牛好謝謝署長其實說得很明確黃牛是要買票之後有加價的行為就是你從中有獲得盈利嗎你有圖利嗎"},{"start":34.119,"end":57.045,"text":"可是在這個目前涉違法裡面我看到的要件很可能會造成說你該罰的罰不到但是不該罰的很可能誤罰怎麼說呢因為其實二手票的流通我們並沒有禁止例如說我今天生病有事不能去那我在網路上我想要請人家去收購但是低於市價或者是說看有沒有折價賣或者是原價賣這個有這是黃牛嗎不是吧"},{"start":61.946,"end":68.25,"text":"這個應該不是 就是說你的原價或低價的話 這個是沒辦法處罰的沒錯 這個是因為黃牛的定義非常明確所以當初我們在修文創法 在修運發條例的時候裡面的條文是怎麼寫的 必須要超過票面金額或者是定價的售價 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喔原價五千塊的演唱會的票券那我因為我臨時不能去我轉售那中間可能加了這個轉匯款的三十塊那這樣是不是有可能會被拿去檢舉然後很可能拿去誤罰"},{"start":132.776,"end":154.913,"text":"都有可能就是因為他的內文的這個要件非常不明確所以我擔心的是說到時候有可能變成這些可能你認為這個是不是有可能他只是在網路上轉賣而已你就全部都跑去檢舉那變成說到時候社會法放到這邊然後大家還是要分回各個主管機關去認定說這個到底有沒有違反黃牛"},{"start":156.334,"end":175.5,"text":"所以他最後還是會回歸文創法回歸運發條例啊再者其實文創法跟運發條例裡面的罰金的罰則是很重的耶五倍到五十倍也就是說我剛說五千塊他要罰五萬到二十五萬可是在社會法裡面罰多少一萬八"},{"start":177.12,"end":193.881,"text":"然後像這是現在最重的他們只加到三萬八就再怎麼罰都不會比原本這個文創法和運發條例還重啊那也就是說真的有心要犯法的黃牛你又視為法反而是清代他了"},{"start":194.582,"end":217.003,"text":"那最後不管怎麼樣主管機關都是例如說演唱會一定是文化部嘛然後如果是運動賽事一定是這個教育部對所以這個主管機關也都很明確然後要件也很明確了罰則也很重了所以怎麼樣我們討論下來都知道說那我們今天到底在這裡修這個社會法是做什麼用"},{"start":218.891,"end":247.868,"text":"所以我最大的疑惑是这个我不知道我们在今天修完这个第一个罚不到第二个罚比较轻第三个误罚别人所以今天审完我不知道说我们在社会法里面要去处理黄牛这件事情到底用意为何所以我觉得像洪璐刚刚委员讲的很可能变成是多此一举然后白忙一场我担心的是这个啦所以如果真的要处理黄牛我当然希望说现在第一个演唱会票卷已经有了"},{"start":248.388,"end":267.437,"text":"第二個運動賽事也有了那其他針對醫療或是其他遊樂相關的更多範圍的我們就訂更多的專法今天衛福部也在這裡如果是針對醫療的衛福部是不是要訂專法處理這個如果是有醫療票券轉售變成是類似黃牛的行為這個還要去釐清啊"},{"start":269.358,"end":298.037,"text":"然後其他遊樂票券如果是交通部底下類似觀光署管轄的一些遊樂票券那這個交通部可以去討論是不是應該有專法來處理這件事情我非常痛恨黃牛我要先講因為就是網路上真的太多這種黃牛我收到超多陳情再加上我這邊有很多年輕人是喜歡看演唱會喜歡看賽事的然後常常來跟我說黃牛大家都很討厭所以我們才訂了文創法"},{"start":300.139,"end":327.521,"text":"運發條例那現在所以我不知道說我們今天要回來討論這個社違法的用意到底為何那最後我還是要講一下這個跟騷的部分因為其實今天除了說討論黃牛還有處理跟騷嘛那這個跟騷如果要改這個文字說無正當理由跟追他人改成無正當理由跟蹤或騷擾他人我不知道說這邊署長知不知此"},{"start":329.272,"end":343.638,"text":"這個部分我是覺得就是已經也有專法在做執行所以我們也建議做適用專法來做一個依據所以如果真的有類似這個根梢的行為最後還是會回歸根梢法處理是嗎對"},{"start":345.313,"end":372.501,"text":"是的所以我在這邊也是再次強調既然都已經有跟騷法了我不知道說我們社會法這邊修這個的用意為何因為最後開罰的依據一定還是跟騷法裡面這個很明確的定義嗎包括跟騷法裡面的定義是什麼呢就是必須要反覆或持續的跟蹤他人然後必須跟性或性別相關所以這個要件都要非常的明確然後有這樣的專法來開罰這個"},{"start":375.843,"end":401.843,"text":"當事人對嗎對所以在這邊我認為說今天的這相關的修法看似是沒有什麼必要啦那其實該開法的依據也都有了那當然我還是希望大家可以針對這個黃牛的行為我們可以做更完善的規範包括我剛剛講的衛福部交通部如果還沒有相關專法的也可以考慮來擬定好以上建議謝謝好謝謝老師"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時15分）謝謝主席，我們請部長跟署長。"],["主席：劉部長、張署長，有請。"],["黃部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好。其實剛剛很多委員都講得很清楚了，我先請教署長，你知道黃牛的定義是什麼嗎？"],["張署長榮興：黃牛就是買票之後加價轉售給他人，賺取這中間的價差，這個就是黃牛。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝，署長其實說得很明確，黃牛是賣票之後有加價的行為，就是從中有盈利、有圖利，可是目前在社維法裡面，我看到的要件很可能會造成該罰的罰不到，但是不該罰的很可能誤罰。怎麼說呢？其實二手票的流通我們並沒有禁止，例如我今天生病有事不能去，我在網路上想要請人家收購，但是低於市價，或者是看有沒有折價賣，或者是原價賣，這個是黃牛嗎？不是吧！"],["張署長榮興：這個應該不是，就是原價或低價的話，這個是沒有辦法處罰的。"],["黃委員捷：對，沒錯，因為黃牛的定義非常明確，所以當初我們在修文創法、在修運發條例的時候，裡面的條文是怎麼寫的？必須要超過票面金額，或者是要超過定價的售價才可以去處罰。可是在社維法裡面怎麼寫的？現在大家要修的是意圖轉售圖利，而意圖轉售圖利包括的範圍很可能不只是高於票券，如果是低於票券金額，他可能先低價去收購再轉售，但是轉售的金額還是低於定價、低於市價，可不可以？不清楚？"],["張署長榮興：我想這個就是定義上比較不清楚。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，所以反而社維法裡面的定義跟要件非常的不明確，很可能只是我在臉書上賣原價5,000塊的演唱會票券，因為我臨時不能去，我轉售，中間可能加了匯款的手續費30塊，這樣是不是有可能會被人檢舉，然後很可能被誤罰？"],["張署長榮興：都有可能。"],["黃委員捷：都有可能，就是因為內文的要件非常不明確嘛！所以我擔心的是到時候有可能變成……你認為這個是不是有可能，但他只是在網路上轉賣而已，就全部都跑去檢舉，變成到時候放到社維法這邊，然後大家還是要分回各個主管機關去認定這個到底有沒有違反黃牛，所以最後還是會回歸文創法、回歸運發條例啊！再者，其實文創法跟運發條例裡面罰金的罰則是很重的耶！"],["張署長榮興：50倍。"],["黃委員捷：5倍到50倍。"],["張署長榮興：對，5倍到50倍。"],["黃委員捷：也就是我剛剛說5,000塊，但他要罰2萬5,000到25萬耶！可是在社維法裡面罰多少？1萬8,000！甚至現在最重的他們只加到3萬8,000，再怎麼罰都不會比原本文創法和運發條例還重啊！也就是真的有心要犯法的黃牛，你用社維法反而是輕待他了，最後不管怎麼樣，主管機關例如演唱會一定是文化部；如果是運動賽事，一定是教育部，主管機關也都很明確，要件也很明確了，罰則也很重了，所以結果怎麼樣我們討論下來都知道。那我們今天到底在這裡修社維法是做什麼用？所以我最大的疑惑是這個，我不知道我們今天修完，第一個罰不到；第二個罰比較輕；第三個誤罰別人，所以今天審完我不知道我們在社維法裡面要去處理黃牛這件事情，到底用意為何？所以我覺得像剛剛宏陸委員講的，很可能變成是多此一舉，然後白忙一場，我擔心的是這個。","所以如果真的要處理黃牛，我當然希望第一個，演唱會票券已經有規範了；第二個，運動賽事也有了；其他針對醫療或是遊樂相關的、更多範圍的，我們就訂更多的專法。今天衛福部也在這裡，如果是針對醫療的，衛福部是不是要訂專法處理這個？如果是有醫療票券轉售變成是類似黃牛的行為，這個還要去釐清啊！其他遊樂票券，如果是交通部底下類似觀光署管轄的一些遊樂票券，交通部是不是可以去討論應該要有專法來處理這件事情？我要先講，我非常痛恨黃牛，因為網路上真的太多這種黃牛，我收到超多陳情，再加上我這邊有很多年輕人是喜歡看演唱會、喜歡看賽事的，常來跟我說黃牛大家都很討厭，所以我們才訂了文創法、訂了運發條例，所以我不知道我們今天又回來討論社維法的用意到底為何？","最後我還是要講一下跟騷的部分，因為今天除了討論黃牛還有處理跟騷，跟騷如果要改文字從無正當理由跟追他人，改成無正當理由跟蹤或騷擾他人，我不知道署長支不支持？"],["張署長榮興：這個部分，我是覺得已經也有專法在做執行了，所以我們也盡力做，用專法來做一個依據。"],["黃委員捷：所以如果真的有類似跟騷的行為，最後還是會回歸跟騷法處理是嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["黃委員捷：是的，所以我也是再次強調，既然都已經有跟騷法了，我不知道我們社維法修這個的用意為何，因為最後開罰的依據一定還是跟騷法裡面這個很明確的定義嘛！包括跟騷法裡面的定義是什麼呢？就是必須要反覆或持續跟蹤他人，然後必須跟性或性別相關，所以這個要件都要非常的明確，然後有這樣的專法來開罰當事人，對嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["黃委員捷：所以我認為今天相關的修法看似是沒有什麼必要啦，其實該開罰的依據也都有了，當然，我還是希望大家可以針對黃牛的行為做更完善的規範，包括我剛剛講的衛福部、交通部，主管機關如果還沒有相關專法的，也可以考慮來擬定，以上建議，謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","下一位我們請許宇甄委員質詢"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}}