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{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 825.336, \"end\": 825.356, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 825.356, \"end\": 825.476, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 825.476, \"end\": 825.516, \"score\": 0.011}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 825.516, \"end\": 825.536, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 825.536, \"end\": 825.556, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 825.556, \"end\": 825.717, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 825.717, \"end\": 825.797, \"score\": 0.031}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 825.797, \"end\": 825.817, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 825.817, \"end\": 825.837, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 825.837, \"end\": 825.857, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 825.857, \"end\": 826.077, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"付\", \"start\": 826.077, \"end\": 826.197, \"score\": 0.41}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 826.197, \"end\": 826.397, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 826.397, \"end\": 826.417, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 826.417, \"end\": 826.437, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 826.437, \"end\": 826.557, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"泰\", \"start\": 826.557, \"end\": 826.577, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 826.577, \"end\": 826.597, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 826.597, \"end\": 826.617, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 826.617, \"end\": 826.677, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 826.677, \"end\": 826.697, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 826.697, \"end\": 826.717, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"坡\", \"start\": 826.717, \"end\": 826.737, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 826.737, \"end\": 826.757, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", 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\"金\", \"start\": 966.949, \"end\": 967.374, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 967.374, \"end\": 967.818, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 967.818, \"end\": 968.04, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 968.04, \"end\": 968.061, \"score\": 0.996}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,390 --> 00:00:05,208\n謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長還有國安局還有外交部\n\n2\n00:00:13,927 --> 00:00:38,497\n部長部長早安首先先請教部長因為有看到相關的新聞特別提到軍方有新聞要增掉宮廟我想請教部長我們增掉宮廟的目的是什麼因為之前大家很擔心是要放那個彈藥嘛那在近期又有新聞去增掉宮廟是不是部長可以說明一下這個我\n\n3\n00:00:42,338 --> 00:01:02,395\n我想我也是看了那個文以後我才知道那我有跟陸軍了解他應該是要作為這個他們在這個戰備演訓的時候作為人員休息場所的使用但是那個韓文我覺得寫的內容寫的不是很清楚\n\n4\n00:01:03,275 --> 00:01:09,101\n造成誤解我覺得這個要求陸軍要做檢討部長因為您是人權律師那在法的部分尤其在國際法裡面如果對於宗教的這些場域去作這樣軍事不管你放彈藥也好放軍事人員也好其實它都會有違反兩公約的這樣的疑慮\n\n5\n00:01:27,819 --> 00:01:31,180\n因為對全世界來說你宗教的一個場所其實它包括戰爭的時候像醫院我們如果人民百姓當你的房子被炸或者你有需要有一個棲身之地的時候像這些宗教場所或者像醫院其實就是人民可以去的地方或者它就是不該被攻擊的地方可是我們今天如果把它混在一起會讓大家無所適從\n\n6\n00:01:54,265 --> 00:01:57,767\n這個部分我想國防部有必要清楚的說明你即使是休息你都應該清清楚楚的讓大家知道因為過去其實在過去的那個時間點其實大家都沒有太大的疑慮可是現在在這麼緊張的情況之下隨時好像\n\n7\n00:02:13,315 --> 00:02:16,580\n要做城鎮站的這種打算那大家就會希望其實應該要把它說明清楚大家應該要怎麼去因應或者應該怎麼對怎麼去做所以部長您這個部分是他們的說明是要做休息的處所\n\n8\n00:02:30,429 --> 00:02:54,079\n對他們主要是要做那個人員的休息那這樣會不會對這樣造成疑慮因為你畢竟是軍人嘛就是這樣的部分你會不會造成像國際法裡面跟委員報告我想日內瓦公約的那個第一附加一定書它所謂禁止供給的是指對於構成各國人民文化或精神遺產的禮拜場所啦並不是\n\n9\n00:02:55,019 --> 00:03:08,828\n我想所有的這些您講的這些地點都構成這個所謂的因為它禮拜的場所我們跟其他國家也不太一樣可是我們的宗教的場所因為你所有的宮廟或寺廟全部都是一樣它就涵蓋這樣的一個稱呼裡面那你如果可以增掉一個那你其他的也可以這個部分我們認為應該要說明清楚對不對如果以部長您的看法就法的觀點\n\n10\n00:03:22,737 --> 00:03:23,919\n是不是應該要把它弄清楚因為我們在前年有修過一個法如果我們不管是公廟不管是學校他如果被\n\n11\n00:03:35,635 --> 00:03:57,815\n拿來使用比如說像你們用的爭調這樣子的一個字眼他就視同營區耶所以他的管理當時有提到如果視同營區就是你在營區裡面可以做的如果有人有做過什麼樣的行為舉動你都可以用那種強制的手段這個部分我們希望部長要把它理清楚好不好\n\n12\n00:04:00,209 --> 00:04:22,741\n委員好,我是法律司司長,委員講的應該是軍事營區安全條例的原案規範沒關係,你幫他講就不要再講法,就是這個部分會不會造成這樣的狀況因為你已經修改了啊,但你就視同營區啊我跟委員報告,那個軍事營區安全條例裡面不是說我們所有的東西都立刻視為營區,它會有一些要件啦那另外跟委員報告,委員您關心的這個宮廟的問題,剛剛部長也有講\n\n13\n00:04:25,322 --> 00:04:30,586\n日內瓦公約的第一附加議定書不要跟我們講日內瓦公約是不是有這樣的疑慮因為我們現在提到的如果你在宗教上面你不是用字義啊因為我們的宗教信仰跟其他的不一樣他大概是用這樣的字面意義可是我們現在要知道的是這些會不會有你到時候存放彈藥或者是你軍人駐守在那裡那就是營區的概念了嘛會不會\n\n14\n00:04:51,202 --> 00:05:05,205\n報委員這個在我們颱風驚馬首次作戰那我們現在的整個在我們的這個環境上面有非常非常多的公廟那但是不能夠直接把這些的公廟那你應該講清楚你們應該講清楚因為要讓人民知道你既然把這個列為你未來適同營區你應該讓人民清清楚楚的知道不是嗎\n\n15\n00:05:13,722 --> 00:05:23,028\n對但是我們也沒有說立刻他就會視同營區那什麼時候他可能是我們要另外要做公告要預告不是說我們今天人到那邊休息他就變成營區了因為你就是在你就是漢光演習或其他的教召你就已經是視同營區了回去再把它看清楚這個部分因為時間的關係部長我們還是希望\n\n16\n00:05:33,655 --> 00:05:36,696\n我們任何的公文你發出去以後讓全體人民知道因為你又要大家配合然後你又要大家在各個方面去怎麼樣調度或者像我們在演練的時候應該要有什麼地方去做一個棲身的地方這些應該都要更清楚嘛\n\n17\n00:05:54,082 --> 00:06:05,866\n我想簡單兩句話第一個就是說沒有因為人員休息而就失容營區這樣子這是第一個第二個我想這個發函的這個內容的這個部分不進周詳這個部分我們會請陸軍監督改進\n\n18\n00:06:09,687 --> 00:06:16,252\n部長因為你如果是休息那你就把休息寫清楚因為這個差很多如果是這樣你寫清楚大家沒有其他的想像嘛好謝謝那另外今天大家在討論近期發生執政黨內有爆發疑似共諜滲透案的這個部分那國安會的吳祕書長也有我想要請教的是\n\n19\n00:06:32,643 --> 00:06:40,449\n國安會的吳秘書長他在外交部長任內他有議事過長期隨身的機要助理何仁傑他會被滲透嗎執政黨有曾想過他這麼重要的幹部會被滲透嗎\n\n20\n00:06:47,914 --> 00:07:10,643\n當執政黨一直在針對我像我看有好多位的委員一直在針對你說像村里長像我們的在野黨委員或者像所有的立法委員甚至助理等等其實我們要做一些相關的一個規範或查核那這樣子的做法你們到底有什麼樣的看法請問委員是要詢問本部還是要\n\n21\n00:07:17,878 --> 00:07:34,623\n我們外交部外交部可以講一下嗎沒有我們那個就像我們剛才報告裡面一樣我們持續的在精進我們相關的人員保房的這個作為如何精進那麼我們第一個當然是教育宣導第二個是說我們這個是不是能夠建議這個\n\n22\n00:07:39,486 --> 00:08:00,684\n我們的行政院或者是把相關的辦法因應現在的一個狀況然後做一個通盤的檢討那麼提交這個櫃院然後能夠對於相關的規範包括機要人員的查核現在目前來說的話只有根據公務人員的公務員法我先請教一下啦因為你如果要\n\n23\n00:08:01,204 --> 00:08:05,185\n就要迅速的去調整外交部今天的報告仍然是避重就輕的因為依照國家機密保護法第26條第一項第二款將這些接觸機密事項的機要人員列為洩密人員這個本來就有法在規範了\n\n24\n00:08:18,169 --> 00:08:28,515\n外交部對於連剛進去的科員其實都是列為涉密人員可是對於那些機要人員大概就是輕輕的放下因為外交部新聞給調查局請調查局查核部長要用的機要人員調查局會說這個人不行嗎\n\n25\n00:08:36,859 --> 00:08:44,546\n因為我們現在沒有看到你機要人員法已經有了不是你說不是你剛剛說的說我們要怎麼樣再去做更強的或者把他納入查核在我們現有的第26條第一項第二款裡面已經有了可是你們並沒有這樣做尤其是部長帶進來的機要人員他的重要的貼身隨緣你們會這樣做嗎因為在2024年3月\n\n26\n00:09:02,723 --> 00:09:08,170\n吳部長就是吳秘書長已經要求這個何仁傑他必須要去職那時候有查查他有洩露什麼樣的機密才讓他去職嗎或者他很容易的就辭職了\n\n27\n00:09:17,318 --> 00:09:45,305\n那那個我們報告委員我們第一個是說對於機要人用機要的身份認用的我們都有特別查核那麼對於其他的人員我們會進行一般查核那麼至於說委員剛才提到的是說有關於這個這個核心的這個前任之意那麼為什麼在去年3月的時候被部長要求這個去職這個詳情我們因為我那個時候還沒有在部裡面服務並不了解我們請那個政風人員幫我們回答一下\n\n28\n00:09:47,579 --> 00:10:04,127\n報告委員根據我們的了解他不是被吳前部長要求離職的是他自己主動要因為家庭的因素所以他那麼久的時間沒有人發現他是可能蘆葦共諜了嘛是不是\n\n29\n00:10:04,827 --> 00:10:06,369\n他去職他離職都沒有人發現沒關係那個後續他是被要求去職或者他自己自動離職這個我們再釐清喔這個因為今天時間的關係我為什麼要特別講是因為今天既然大家對於國安的這個\n\n30\n00:10:22,984 --> 00:10:26,386\n可能產生的疏漏那應該要怎麼樣去強化或怎麼樣去教育是每一個單位都要做到的因為部長您今天您身為國防部長就你剛上任的時候你開始提到你要用檢法的思維所以受到很多我們的軍事官兵大家非常的認同可是今天的報告裡面又提到似乎對於像一些主管館\n\n31\n00:10:50,539 --> 00:11:09,063\n你要做的又有要恢復連坐的這樣子的概念沒有不是連坐的概念我們是會就這個相關被滲透的這個責任的部分我們要來看看他有沒有一些相關的一些責任的疏失我想這個部分是不一樣\n\n32\n00:11:11,844 --> 00:11:20,008\n因為召喚人員他的召喚單位要依主官主管幕僚主管督導體系要強烈責任關係這個就是像過去的連坐啊那今天如果軍中要這樣做也沒有關係如果我們認為共諜是非常嚴重的像我們剛剛提到的非常多的我們的高層單位比如像外交部國安會像總統府其實這些也是非常重要的一個單位\n\n33\n00:11:41,639 --> 00:11:50,201\n像這樣子如果他下面包括他的的隨緣啊或者姿意啊發生這樣的事情那他們也需要連坐嗎因為有責任的歸屬啊人是誰帶進來的或者他是怎麼樣用這些人然後都沒有發現當你發生洩露這樣重要的機密的時候那他需要去做這樣子的責任的一個連帶的一個追究嗎\n\n34\n00:12:09,066 --> 00:12:32,015\n部長我想您對軍方有這樣子的要求如果是這樣那應該要全面性的就要這樣做我們主要是在他的行政管理面要看看他有沒有疏則而不是說一律的連坐這個部分先澄清一下那另外行政院我想就已經就我了解已經院長已經也要求這個行政院檢討全面的這些\n\n35\n00:12:33,598 --> 00:12:49,051\n會涉密公職人員要如何來進行這個查核這個部分我想因為有涉及到一些相關能量的問題就是說因為法務部調查局有沒有足夠的人員來做這樣子我想這個都還在等行政院來\n\n36\n00:12:49,931 --> 00:12:55,533\n來檢討這樣部長因為我在這裡要特別提醒就是說我剛剛提到的因為您上來以後你把連坐法檢法的思維讓大家覺得說這是非常好大家如果自己犯錯應該要自己去承擔所有的責任當然如果在行政上面有重大瑕疵那個沒有話講可是如果你是用連坐的這樣的概念那其實在所有的單位所有的\n\n37\n00:13:16,338 --> 00:13:21,141\n一些相關的部門其實都應該要有一致的作為那最後再一點點時間我再請教因為今天大家都說想要限制不管是立委也好或者像很多的村里長啦或者宗教人士等等其實本席也尊重也認同如果我們的像這樣子被滲透的問題這麼嚴重的話我們建議其實只要出國都應該要報備\n\n38\n00:13:43,576 --> 00:13:46,977\n因為過去我舉例羅賢哲少將他當時判刑確定成為共諜的時候媒體透露他除了駐泰國的武官被吸收的時候他期間以軍事交流、研討會休假的名義出國甚至到各地交付資料他有去過泰國、去過美國、去過新加坡他就是沒有去中國大陸\n\n39\n00:14:09,282 --> 00:14:12,285\n那他去中國他沒有去中國他還是淪為共諜如果而且這個對象不是只有哪一黨的人喔也不是只有在哪一個階層的人如果有這樣的必要的時候只要要出國其實我認為全部都要報備因為\n\n40\n00:14:27,981 --> 00:14:34,283\n我們現在看到去中國就是中共同路人會洩露國安機密可是有很多並不是這樣做的他去泰國新加坡日本韓國美國甚至有些去旅透過去旅遊或者甚至在國外置產其實都沒有沒有機會被招收為共諜嗎這個部分大家可以共同的考慮如果我們要更嚴格要\n\n41\n00:14:50,929 --> 00:14:57,451\n像其他的可能甚至獨裁國家因為他管制很多嘛就像以前要出國哇非常麻煩我們好不容易已經離開了那個年代如果現在慢慢慢慢慢慢的要這樣的限縮的時候我們希望只要可能有涉密的所有的相關人員你只要要出這個國門都應該要有相同的一個規範謝謝部長怎麼看\n\n42\n00:15:16,906 --> 00:15:33,548\n有一些部門就有了解像國安會或者我們國安部一些接觸一些全員的話,大家都要做人員管制然後出國都一定要報課,然後回來要回報這樣子\n\n43\n00:15:35,678 --> 00:15:58,428\n相關人員我們現在已經提到是所有的立法委員甚至助理或者甚至村里長或者甚至其他的宗教人士如果有的話因為你既然會被吸收因為不一定在哪裡很多人喜歡去澳門賭博那在澳門其實也很容易啊之前也有發生過所以這個部分大家可以審慎的去考量如果要我們就全面的讓他更嚴謹的去實施我想這樣對我們國家的安全更有保障謝謝\n\n44\n00:16:06,788 --> 00:16:08,061\n謝馬文金委員上台\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n390\t5208\t謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長還有國安局還有外交部\n13927\t38497\t部長 部長早安首先先請教部長因為有看到相關的新聞特別提到軍方有新聞要增掉宮廟我想請教部長我們增掉宮廟的目的是什麼因為之前大家很擔心是要放那個彈藥嘛那在近期又有新聞去增掉宮廟是不是部長可以說明一下這個我\n42338\t62395\t我想我也是看了那個文以後我才知道那我有跟陸軍了解他應該是要作為這個他們在這個戰備演訓的時候作為人員休息場所的使用但是那個韓文我覺得寫的內容寫的不是很清楚\n63275\t69101\t造成誤解 我覺得這個要求陸軍要做檢討部長 因為您是人權律師那在法的部分 尤其在國際法裡面如果對於宗教的這些場域去作這樣軍事不管你放彈藥也好 放軍事人員也好其實它都會有違反兩公約的這樣的疑慮\n87819\t91180\t因為對全世界來說你宗教的一個場所其實它包括戰爭的時候像醫院我們如果人民百姓當你的房子被炸或者你有需要有一個棲身之地的時候像這些宗教場所或者像醫院其實就是人民可以去的地方或者它就是不該被攻擊的地方可是我們今天如果把它混在一起會讓大家無所適從\n114265\t117767\t這個部分我想國防部有必要清楚的說明你即使是休息你都應該清清楚楚的讓大家知道因為過去其實在過去的那個時間點其實大家都沒有太大的疑慮可是現在在這麼緊張的情況之下隨時好像\n133315\t136580\t要做城鎮站的這種打算那大家就會希望其實應該要把它說明清楚大家應該要怎麼去因應或者應該怎麼對怎麼去做所以部長您這個部分是他們的說明是要做休息的處所\n150429\t174079\t對 他們主要是要做那個人員的休息那這樣會不會對這樣造成疑慮因為你畢竟是軍人嘛就是這樣的部分你會不會造成像國際法裡面跟委員報告我想日內瓦公約的那個第一附加一定書它所謂禁止供給的是指對於構成各國人民文化或精神遺產的禮拜場所啦並不是\n175019\t188828\t我想所有的這些您講的這些地點都構成這個所謂的因為它禮拜的場所我們跟其他國家也不太一樣可是我們的宗教的場所因為你所有的宮廟或寺廟全部都是一樣它就涵蓋這樣的一個稱呼裡面那你如果可以增掉一個那你其他的也可以這個部分我們認為應該要說明清楚對不對如果以部長您的看法就法的觀點\n202737\t203919\t是不是應該要把它弄清楚因為我們在前年有修過一個法如果我們不管是公廟不管是學校他如果被\n215635\t237815\t拿來使用比如說像你們用的爭調這樣子的一個字眼他就視同營區耶所以他的管理當時有提到如果視同營區就是你在營區裡面可以做的如果有人有做過什麼樣的行為舉動你都可以用那種強制的手段這個部分我們希望部長要把它理清楚好不好\n240209\t262741\t委員好,我是法律司司長,委員講的應該是軍事營區安全條例的原案規範沒關係,你幫他講就不要再講法,就是這個部分會不會造成這樣的狀況因為你已經修改了啊,但你就視同營區啊我跟委員報告,那個軍事營區安全條例裡面不是說我們所有的東西都立刻視為營區,它會有一些要件啦那另外跟委員報告,委員您關心的這個宮廟的問題,剛剛部長也有講\n265322\t270586\t日內瓦公約的第一附加議定書不要跟我們講日內瓦公約是不是有這樣的疑慮因為我們現在提到的如果你在宗教上面你不是用字義啊因為我們的宗教信仰跟其他的不一樣他大概是用這樣的字面意義可是我們現在要知道的是這些會不會有你到時候存放彈藥或者是你軍人駐守在那裡那就是營區的概念了嘛會不會\n291202\t305205\t報委員這個在我們颱風驚馬首次作戰那我們現在的整個在我們的這個環境上面有非常非常多的公廟那但是不能夠直接把這些的公廟那你應該講清楚你們應該講清楚因為要讓人民知道你既然把這個列為你未來適同營區你應該讓人民清清楚楚的知道不是嗎\n313722\t323028\t對但是我們也沒有說立刻他就會視同營區那什麼時候他可能是我們要另外要做公告要預告不是說我們今天人到那邊休息他就變成營區了因為你就是在你就是漢光演習或其他的教召你就已經是視同營區了回去再把它看清楚這個部分因為時間的關係部長我們還是希望\n333655\t336696\t我們任何的公文你發出去以後讓全體人民知道因為你又要大家配合然後你又要大家在各個方面去怎麼樣調度或者像我們在演練的時候應該要有什麼地方去做一個棲身的地方這些應該都要更清楚嘛\n354082\t365866\t我想簡單兩句話 第一個就是說沒有因為人員休息而就失容營區這樣子這是第一個 第二個我想這個發函的這個內容的這個部分不進周詳這個部分我們會請陸軍監督改進\n369687\t376252\t部長因為你如果是休息那你就把休息寫清楚因為這個差很多如果是這樣你寫清楚大家沒有其他的想像嘛好 謝謝那另外今天大家在討論近期發生執政黨內有爆發疑似共諜滲透案的這個部分那國安會的吳祕書長也有我想要請教的是\n392643\t400449\t國安會的吳秘書長他在外交部長任內他有議事過長期隨身的機要助理何仁傑他會被滲透嗎執政黨有曾想過他這麼重要的幹部會被滲透嗎\n407914\t430643\t當執政黨一直在針對我像我看有好多位的委員一直在針對你說像村里長像我們的在野黨委員或者像所有的立法委員甚至助理等等其實我們要做一些相關的一個規範或查核那這樣子的做法你們到底有什麼樣的看法請問委員是要詢問本部還是要\n437878\t454623\t我們外交部外交部可以講一下嗎沒有我們那個就像我們剛才報告裡面一樣我們持續的在精進我們相關的人員保房的這個作為如何精進那麼我們第一個當然是教育宣導第二個是說我們這個是不是能夠建議這個\n459486\t480684\t我們的行政院或者是把相關的辦法因應現在的一個狀況然後做一個通盤的檢討那麼提交這個櫃院然後能夠對於相關的規範包括機要人員的查核現在目前來說的話只有根據公務人員的公務員法我先請教一下啦因為你如果要\n481204\t485185\t就要迅速的去調整外交部今天的報告仍然是避重就輕的因為依照國家機密保護法第26條第一項第二款將這些接觸機密事項的機要人員列為洩密人員這個本來就有法在規範了\n498169\t508515\t外交部對於連剛進去的科員其實都是列為涉密人員可是對於那些機要人員大概就是輕輕的放下因為外交部新聞給調查局請調查局查核部長要用的機要人員調查局會說這個人不行嗎\n516859\t524546\t因為我們現在沒有看到你機要人員法已經有了不是你說不是你剛剛說的說我們要怎麼樣再去做更強的或者把他納入查核在我們現有的第26條第一項第二款裡面已經有了可是你們並沒有這樣做尤其是部長帶進來的機要人員他的重要的貼身隨緣你們會這樣做嗎因為在2024年3月\n542723\t548170\t吳部長就是吳秘書長已經要求這個何仁傑他必須要去職那時候有查查他有洩露什麼樣的機密才讓他去職嗎或者他很容易的就辭職了\n557318\t585305\t那那個我們報告委員我們第一個是說對於機要人用機要的身份認用的我們都有特別查核那麼對於其他的人員我們會進行一般查核那麼至於說委員剛才提到的是說有關於這個這個核心的這個前任之意那麼為什麼在去年3月的時候被部長要求這個去職這個詳情我們因為我那個時候還沒有在部裡面服務並不了解我們請那個政風人員幫我們回答一下\n587579\t604127\t報告委員 根據我們的了解 他不是被吳前部長要求離職的是他自己主動要 因為家庭的因素所以他那麼久的時間 沒有人發現他是可能蘆葦共諜了嘛 是不是\n604827\t606369\t他去職他離職都沒有人發現沒關係那個後續他是被要求去職或者他自己自動離職這個我們再釐清喔這個因為今天時間的關係我為什麼要特別講是因為今天既然大家對於國安的這個\n622984\t626386\t可能產生的疏漏那應該要怎麼樣去強化或怎麼樣去教育是每一個單位都要做到的因為部長您今天您身為國防部長就你剛上任的時候你開始提到你要用檢法的思維所以受到很多我們的軍事官兵大家非常的認同可是今天的報告裡面又提到似乎對於像一些主管館\n650539\t669063\t你要做的又有要恢復連坐的這樣子的概念沒有不是連坐的概念我們是會就這個相關被滲透的這個責任的部分我們要來看看他有沒有一些相關的一些責任的疏失我想這個部分是不一樣\n671844\t680008\t因為召喚人員他的召喚單位要依主官主管幕僚主管督導體系要強烈責任關係這個就是像過去的連坐啊那今天如果軍中要這樣做也沒有關係如果我們認為共諜是非常嚴重的像我們剛剛提到的非常多的我們的高層單位比如像外交部國安會像總統府其實這些也是非常重要的一個單位\n701639\t710201\t像這樣子如果他下面包括他的的隨緣啊或者姿意啊發生這樣的事情那他們也需要連坐嗎因為有責任的歸屬啊人是誰帶進來的或者他是怎麼樣用這些人然後都沒有發現當你發生洩露這樣重要的機密的時候那他需要去做這樣子的責任的一個連帶的一個追究嗎\n729066\t752015\t部長我想您對軍方有這樣子的要求如果是這樣那應該要全面性的就要這樣做我們主要是在他的行政管理面要看看他有沒有疏則而不是說一律的連坐這個部分先澄清一下那另外行政院我想就已經就我了解已經院長已經也要求這個行政院檢討全面的這些\n753598\t769051\t會涉密公職人員要如何來進行這個查核這個部分我想因為有涉及到一些相關能量的問題就是說因為法務部調查局有沒有足夠的人員來做這樣子我想這個都還在等行政院來\n769931\t775533\t來檢討這樣部長因為我在這裡要特別提醒就是說我剛剛提到的因為您上來以後你把連坐法檢法的思維讓大家覺得說這是非常好大家如果自己犯錯應該要自己去承擔所有的責任當然如果在行政上面有重大瑕疵那個沒有話講可是如果你是用連坐的這樣的概念那其實在所有的單位所有的\n796338\t801141\t一些相關的部門其實都應該要有一致的作為那最後再一點點時間我再請教因為今天大家都說想要限制不管是立委也好或者像很多的村里長啦或者宗教人士等等其實本席也尊重也認同如果我們的像這樣子被滲透的問題這麼嚴重的話我們建議其實只要出國都應該要報備\n823576\t826977\t因為過去我舉例羅賢哲少將他當時判刑確定成為共諜的時候媒體透露他除了駐泰國的武官被吸收的時候他期間以軍事交流、研討會休假的名義出國甚至到各地交付資料他有去過泰國、去過美國、去過新加坡他就是沒有去中國大陸\n849282\t852285\t那他去中國他沒有去中國他還是淪為共諜如果而且這個對象不是只有哪一黨的人喔也不是只有在哪一個階層的人如果有這樣的必要的時候只要要出國其實我認為全部都要報備因為\n867981\t874283\t我們現在看到去中國就是中共同路人會洩露國安機密可是有很多並不是這樣做的他去泰國新加坡日本韓國美國甚至有些去旅透過去旅遊或者甚至在國外置產其實都沒有沒有機會被招收為共諜嗎這個部分大家可以共同的考慮如果我們要更嚴格要\n890929\t897451\t像其他的 可能甚至獨裁國家因為他管制很多嘛 就像以前要出國 哇 非常麻煩我們好不容易已經離開了那個年代如果現在慢慢慢慢慢慢的要這樣的限縮的時候我們希望只要可能有涉密的所有的相關人員你只要要出這個國門都應該要有相同的一個規範謝謝 部長怎麼看\n916906\t933548\t有一些部門就有了解像國安會或者我們國安部一些接觸一些全員的話,大家都要做人員管制然後出國都一定要報課,然後回來要回報這樣子\n935678\t958428\t相關人員我們現在已經提到是所有的立法委員甚至助理或者甚至村里長或者甚至其他的宗教人士如果有的話因為你既然會被吸收因為不一定在哪裡很多人喜歡去澳門賭博那在澳門其實也很容易啊之前也有發生過所以這個部分大家可以審慎的去考量如果要我們就全面的讓他更嚴謹的去實施我想這樣對我們國家的安全更有保障謝謝\n966788\t968061\t謝馬文金委員上台\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長還有國安局還有外交部\n部長 部長早安首先先請教部長因為有看到相關的新聞特別提到軍方有新聞要增掉宮廟我想請教部長我們增掉宮廟的目的是什麼因為之前大家很擔心是要放那個彈藥嘛那在近期又有新聞去增掉宮廟是不是部長可以說明一下這個我\n我想我也是看了那個文以後我才知道那我有跟陸軍了解他應該是要作為這個他們在這個戰備演訓的時候作為人員休息場所的使用但是那個韓文我覺得寫的內容寫的不是很清楚\n造成誤解 我覺得這個要求陸軍要做檢討部長 因為您是人權律師那在法的部分 尤其在國際法裡面如果對於宗教的這些場域去作這樣軍事不管你放彈藥也好 放軍事人員也好其實它都會有違反兩公約的這樣的疑慮\n因為對全世界來說你宗教的一個場所其實它包括戰爭的時候像醫院我們如果人民百姓當你的房子被炸或者你有需要有一個棲身之地的時候像這些宗教場所或者像醫院其實就是人民可以去的地方或者它就是不該被攻擊的地方可是我們今天如果把它混在一起會讓大家無所適從\n這個部分我想國防部有必要清楚的說明你即使是休息你都應該清清楚楚的讓大家知道因為過去其實在過去的那個時間點其實大家都沒有太大的疑慮可是現在在這麼緊張的情況之下隨時好像\n要做城鎮站的這種打算那大家就會希望其實應該要把它說明清楚大家應該要怎麼去因應或者應該怎麼對怎麼去做所以部長您這個部分是他們的說明是要做休息的處所\n對 他們主要是要做那個人員的休息那這樣會不會對這樣造成疑慮因為你畢竟是軍人嘛就是這樣的部分你會不會造成像國際法裡面跟委員報告我想日內瓦公約的那個第一附加一定書它所謂禁止供給的是指對於構成各國人民文化或精神遺產的禮拜場所啦並不是\n我想所有的這些您講的這些地點都構成這個所謂的因為它禮拜的場所我們跟其他國家也不太一樣可是我們的宗教的場所因為你所有的宮廟或寺廟全部都是一樣它就涵蓋這樣的一個稱呼裡面那你如果可以增掉一個那你其他的也可以這個部分我們認為應該要說明清楚對不對如果以部長您的看法就法的觀點\n是不是應該要把它弄清楚因為我們在前年有修過一個法如果我們不管是公廟不管是學校他如果被\n拿來使用比如說像你們用的爭調這樣子的一個字眼他就視同營區耶所以他的管理當時有提到如果視同營區就是你在營區裡面可以做的如果有人有做過什麼樣的行為舉動你都可以用那種強制的手段這個部分我們希望部長要把它理清楚好不好\n委員好,我是法律司司長,委員講的應該是軍事營區安全條例的原案規範沒關係,你幫他講就不要再講法,就是這個部分會不會造成這樣的狀況因為你已經修改了啊,但你就視同營區啊我跟委員報告,那個軍事營區安全條例裡面不是說我們所有的東西都立刻視為營區,它會有一些要件啦那另外跟委員報告,委員您關心的這個宮廟的問題,剛剛部長也有講\n日內瓦公約的第一附加議定書不要跟我們講日內瓦公約是不是有這樣的疑慮因為我們現在提到的如果你在宗教上面你不是用字義啊因為我們的宗教信仰跟其他的不一樣他大概是用這樣的字面意義可是我們現在要知道的是這些會不會有你到時候存放彈藥或者是你軍人駐守在那裡那就是營區的概念了嘛會不會\n報委員這個在我們颱風驚馬首次作戰那我們現在的整個在我們的這個環境上面有非常非常多的公廟那但是不能夠直接把這些的公廟那你應該講清楚你們應該講清楚因為要讓人民知道你既然把這個列為你未來適同營區你應該讓人民清清楚楚的知道不是嗎\n對但是我們也沒有說立刻他就會視同營區那什麼時候他可能是我們要另外要做公告要預告不是說我們今天人到那邊休息他就變成營區了因為你就是在你就是漢光演習或其他的教召你就已經是視同營區了回去再把它看清楚這個部分因為時間的關係部長我們還是希望\n我們任何的公文你發出去以後讓全體人民知道因為你又要大家配合然後你又要大家在各個方面去怎麼樣調度或者像我們在演練的時候應該要有什麼地方去做一個棲身的地方這些應該都要更清楚嘛\n我想簡單兩句話 第一個就是說沒有因為人員休息而就失容營區這樣子這是第一個 第二個我想這個發函的這個內容的這個部分不進周詳這個部分我們會請陸軍監督改進\n部長因為你如果是休息那你就把休息寫清楚因為這個差很多如果是這樣你寫清楚大家沒有其他的想像嘛好 謝謝那另外今天大家在討論近期發生執政黨內有爆發疑似共諜滲透案的這個部分那國安會的吳祕書長也有我想要請教的是\n國安會的吳秘書長他在外交部長任內他有議事過長期隨身的機要助理何仁傑他會被滲透嗎執政黨有曾想過他這麼重要的幹部會被滲透嗎\n當執政黨一直在針對我像我看有好多位的委員一直在針對你說像村里長像我們的在野黨委員或者像所有的立法委員甚至助理等等其實我們要做一些相關的一個規範或查核那這樣子的做法你們到底有什麼樣的看法請問委員是要詢問本部還是要\n我們外交部外交部可以講一下嗎沒有我們那個就像我們剛才報告裡面一樣我們持續的在精進我們相關的人員保房的這個作為如何精進那麼我們第一個當然是教育宣導第二個是說我們這個是不是能夠建議這個\n我們的行政院或者是把相關的辦法因應現在的一個狀況然後做一個通盤的檢討那麼提交這個櫃院然後能夠對於相關的規範包括機要人員的查核現在目前來說的話只有根據公務人員的公務員法我先請教一下啦因為你如果要\n就要迅速的去調整外交部今天的報告仍然是避重就輕的因為依照國家機密保護法第26條第一項第二款將這些接觸機密事項的機要人員列為洩密人員這個本來就有法在規範了\n外交部對於連剛進去的科員其實都是列為涉密人員可是對於那些機要人員大概就是輕輕的放下因為外交部新聞給調查局請調查局查核部長要用的機要人員調查局會說這個人不行嗎\n因為我們現在沒有看到你機要人員法已經有了不是你說不是你剛剛說的說我們要怎麼樣再去做更強的或者把他納入查核在我們現有的第26條第一項第二款裡面已經有了可是你們並沒有這樣做尤其是部長帶進來的機要人員他的重要的貼身隨緣你們會這樣做嗎因為在2024年3月\n吳部長就是吳秘書長已經要求這個何仁傑他必須要去職那時候有查查他有洩露什麼樣的機密才讓他去職嗎或者他很容易的就辭職了\n那那個我們報告委員我們第一個是說對於機要人用機要的身份認用的我們都有特別查核那麼對於其他的人員我們會進行一般查核那麼至於說委員剛才提到的是說有關於這個這個核心的這個前任之意那麼為什麼在去年3月的時候被部長要求這個去職這個詳情我們因為我那個時候還沒有在部裡面服務並不了解我們請那個政風人員幫我們回答一下\n報告委員 根據我們的了解 他不是被吳前部長要求離職的是他自己主動要 因為家庭的因素所以他那麼久的時間 沒有人發現他是可能蘆葦共諜了嘛 是不是\n他去職他離職都沒有人發現沒關係那個後續他是被要求去職或者他自己自動離職這個我們再釐清喔這個因為今天時間的關係我為什麼要特別講是因為今天既然大家對於國安的這個\n可能產生的疏漏那應該要怎麼樣去強化或怎麼樣去教育是每一個單位都要做到的因為部長您今天您身為國防部長就你剛上任的時候你開始提到你要用檢法的思維所以受到很多我們的軍事官兵大家非常的認同可是今天的報告裡面又提到似乎對於像一些主管館\n你要做的又有要恢復連坐的這樣子的概念沒有不是連坐的概念我們是會就這個相關被滲透的這個責任的部分我們要來看看他有沒有一些相關的一些責任的疏失我想這個部分是不一樣\n因為召喚人員他的召喚單位要依主官主管幕僚主管督導體系要強烈責任關係這個就是像過去的連坐啊那今天如果軍中要這樣做也沒有關係如果我們認為共諜是非常嚴重的像我們剛剛提到的非常多的我們的高層單位比如像外交部國安會像總統府其實這些也是非常重要的一個單位\n像這樣子如果他下面包括他的的隨緣啊或者姿意啊發生這樣的事情那他們也需要連坐嗎因為有責任的歸屬啊人是誰帶進來的或者他是怎麼樣用這些人然後都沒有發現當你發生洩露這樣重要的機密的時候那他需要去做這樣子的責任的一個連帶的一個追究嗎\n部長我想您對軍方有這樣子的要求如果是這樣那應該要全面性的就要這樣做我們主要是在他的行政管理面要看看他有沒有疏則而不是說一律的連坐這個部分先澄清一下那另外行政院我想就已經就我了解已經院長已經也要求這個行政院檢討全面的這些\n會涉密公職人員要如何來進行這個查核這個部分我想因為有涉及到一些相關能量的問題就是說因為法務部調查局有沒有足夠的人員來做這樣子我想這個都還在等行政院來\n來檢討這樣部長因為我在這裡要特別提醒就是說我剛剛提到的因為您上來以後你把連坐法檢法的思維讓大家覺得說這是非常好大家如果自己犯錯應該要自己去承擔所有的責任當然如果在行政上面有重大瑕疵那個沒有話講可是如果你是用連坐的這樣的概念那其實在所有的單位所有的\n一些相關的部門其實都應該要有一致的作為那最後再一點點時間我再請教因為今天大家都說想要限制不管是立委也好或者像很多的村里長啦或者宗教人士等等其實本席也尊重也認同如果我們的像這樣子被滲透的問題這麼嚴重的話我們建議其實只要出國都應該要報備\n因為過去我舉例羅賢哲少將他當時判刑確定成為共諜的時候媒體透露他除了駐泰國的武官被吸收的時候他期間以軍事交流、研討會休假的名義出國甚至到各地交付資料他有去過泰國、去過美國、去過新加坡他就是沒有去中國大陸\n那他去中國他沒有去中國他還是淪為共諜如果而且這個對象不是只有哪一黨的人喔也不是只有在哪一個階層的人如果有這樣的必要的時候只要要出國其實我認為全部都要報備因為\n我們現在看到去中國就是中共同路人會洩露國安機密可是有很多並不是這樣做的他去泰國新加坡日本韓國美國甚至有些去旅透過去旅遊或者甚至在國外置產其實都沒有沒有機會被招收為共諜嗎這個部分大家可以共同的考慮如果我們要更嚴格要\n像其他的 可能甚至獨裁國家因為他管制很多嘛 就像以前要出國 哇 非常麻煩我們好不容易已經離開了那個年代如果現在慢慢慢慢慢慢的要這樣的限縮的時候我們希望只要可能有涉密的所有的相關人員你只要要出這個國門都應該要有相同的一個規範謝謝 部長怎麼看\n有一些部門就有了解像國安會或者我們國安部一些接觸一些全員的話,大家都要做人員管制然後出國都一定要報課,然後回來要回報這樣子\n相關人員我們現在已經提到是所有的立法委員甚至助理或者甚至村里長或者甚至其他的宗教人士如果有的話因為你既然會被吸收因為不一定在哪裡很多人喜歡去澳門賭博那在澳門其實也很容易啊之前也有發生過所以這個部分大家可以審慎的去考量如果要我們就全面的讓他更嚴謹的去實施我想這樣對我們國家的安全更有保障謝謝\n謝馬文金委員上台\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.390 --> 00:05.208\n謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長還有國安局還有外交部\n\n00:13.927 --> 00:38.497\n部長部長早安首先先請教部長因為有看到相關的新聞特別提到軍方有新聞要增掉宮廟我想請教部長我們增掉宮廟的目的是什麼因為之前大家很擔心是要放那個彈藥嘛那在近期又有新聞去增掉宮廟是不是部長可以說明一下這個我\n\n00:42.338 --> 01:02.395\n我想我也是看了那個文以後我才知道那我有跟陸軍了解他應該是要作為這個他們在這個戰備演訓的時候作為人員休息場所的使用但是那個韓文我覺得寫的內容寫的不是很清楚\n\n01:03.275 --> 01:09.101\n造成誤解我覺得這個要求陸軍要做檢討部長因為您是人權律師那在法的部分尤其在國際法裡面如果對於宗教的這些場域去作這樣軍事不管你放彈藥也好放軍事人員也好其實它都會有違反兩公約的這樣的疑慮\n\n01:27.819 --> 01:31.180\n因為對全世界來說你宗教的一個場所其實它包括戰爭的時候像醫院我們如果人民百姓當你的房子被炸或者你有需要有一個棲身之地的時候像這些宗教場所或者像醫院其實就是人民可以去的地方或者它就是不該被攻擊的地方可是我們今天如果把它混在一起會讓大家無所適從\n\n01:54.265 --> 01:57.767\n這個部分我想國防部有必要清楚的說明你即使是休息你都應該清清楚楚的讓大家知道因為過去其實在過去的那個時間點其實大家都沒有太大的疑慮可是現在在這麼緊張的情況之下隨時好像\n\n02:13.315 --> 02:16.580\n要做城鎮站的這種打算那大家就會希望其實應該要把它說明清楚大家應該要怎麼去因應或者應該怎麼對怎麼去做所以部長您這個部分是他們的說明是要做休息的處所\n\n02:30.429 --> 02:54.079\n對他們主要是要做那個人員的休息那這樣會不會對這樣造成疑慮因為你畢竟是軍人嘛就是這樣的部分你會不會造成像國際法裡面跟委員報告我想日內瓦公約的那個第一附加一定書它所謂禁止供給的是指對於構成各國人民文化或精神遺產的禮拜場所啦並不是\n\n02:55.019 --> 03:08.828\n我想所有的這些您講的這些地點都構成這個所謂的因為它禮拜的場所我們跟其他國家也不太一樣可是我們的宗教的場所因為你所有的宮廟或寺廟全部都是一樣它就涵蓋這樣的一個稱呼裡面那你如果可以增掉一個那你其他的也可以這個部分我們認為應該要說明清楚對不對如果以部長您的看法就法的觀點\n\n03:22.737 --> 03:23.919\n是不是應該要把它弄清楚因為我們在前年有修過一個法如果我們不管是公廟不管是學校他如果被\n\n03:35.635 --> 03:57.815\n拿來使用比如說像你們用的爭調這樣子的一個字眼他就視同營區耶所以他的管理當時有提到如果視同營區就是你在營區裡面可以做的如果有人有做過什麼樣的行為舉動你都可以用那種強制的手段這個部分我們希望部長要把它理清楚好不好\n\n04:00.209 --> 04:22.741\n委員好,我是法律司司長,委員講的應該是軍事營區安全條例的原案規範沒關係,你幫他講就不要再講法,就是這個部分會不會造成這樣的狀況因為你已經修改了啊,但你就視同營區啊我跟委員報告,那個軍事營區安全條例裡面不是說我們所有的東西都立刻視為營區,它會有一些要件啦那另外跟委員報告,委員您關心的這個宮廟的問題,剛剛部長也有講\n\n04:25.322 --> 04:30.586\n日內瓦公約的第一附加議定書不要跟我們講日內瓦公約是不是有這樣的疑慮因為我們現在提到的如果你在宗教上面你不是用字義啊因為我們的宗教信仰跟其他的不一樣他大概是用這樣的字面意義可是我們現在要知道的是這些會不會有你到時候存放彈藥或者是你軍人駐守在那裡那就是營區的概念了嘛會不會\n\n04:51.202 --> 05:05.205\n報委員這個在我們颱風驚馬首次作戰那我們現在的整個在我們的這個環境上面有非常非常多的公廟那但是不能夠直接把這些的公廟那你應該講清楚你們應該講清楚因為要讓人民知道你既然把這個列為你未來適同營區你應該讓人民清清楚楚的知道不是嗎\n\n05:13.722 --> 05:23.028\n對但是我們也沒有說立刻他就會視同營區那什麼時候他可能是我們要另外要做公告要預告不是說我們今天人到那邊休息他就變成營區了因為你就是在你就是漢光演習或其他的教召你就已經是視同營區了回去再把它看清楚這個部分因為時間的關係部長我們還是希望\n\n05:33.655 --> 05:36.696\n我們任何的公文你發出去以後讓全體人民知道因為你又要大家配合然後你又要大家在各個方面去怎麼樣調度或者像我們在演練的時候應該要有什麼地方去做一個棲身的地方這些應該都要更清楚嘛\n\n05:54.082 --> 06:05.866\n我想簡單兩句話第一個就是說沒有因為人員休息而就失容營區這樣子這是第一個第二個我想這個發函的這個內容的這個部分不進周詳這個部分我們會請陸軍監督改進\n\n06:09.687 --> 06:16.252\n部長因為你如果是休息那你就把休息寫清楚因為這個差很多如果是這樣你寫清楚大家沒有其他的想像嘛好謝謝那另外今天大家在討論近期發生執政黨內有爆發疑似共諜滲透案的這個部分那國安會的吳祕書長也有我想要請教的是\n\n06:32.643 --> 06:40.449\n國安會的吳秘書長他在外交部長任內他有議事過長期隨身的機要助理何仁傑他會被滲透嗎執政黨有曾想過他這麼重要的幹部會被滲透嗎\n\n06:47.914 --> 07:10.643\n當執政黨一直在針對我像我看有好多位的委員一直在針對你說像村里長像我們的在野黨委員或者像所有的立法委員甚至助理等等其實我們要做一些相關的一個規範或查核那這樣子的做法你們到底有什麼樣的看法請問委員是要詢問本部還是要\n\n07:17.878 --> 07:34.623\n我們外交部外交部可以講一下嗎沒有我們那個就像我們剛才報告裡面一樣我們持續的在精進我們相關的人員保房的這個作為如何精進那麼我們第一個當然是教育宣導第二個是說我們這個是不是能夠建議這個\n\n07:39.486 --> 08:00.684\n我們的行政院或者是把相關的辦法因應現在的一個狀況然後做一個通盤的檢討那麼提交這個櫃院然後能夠對於相關的規範包括機要人員的查核現在目前來說的話只有根據公務人員的公務員法我先請教一下啦因為你如果要\n\n08:01.204 --> 08:05.185\n就要迅速的去調整外交部今天的報告仍然是避重就輕的因為依照國家機密保護法第26條第一項第二款將這些接觸機密事項的機要人員列為洩密人員這個本來就有法在規範了\n\n08:18.169 --> 08:28.515\n外交部對於連剛進去的科員其實都是列為涉密人員可是對於那些機要人員大概就是輕輕的放下因為外交部新聞給調查局請調查局查核部長要用的機要人員調查局會說這個人不行嗎\n\n08:36.859 --> 08:44.546\n因為我們現在沒有看到你機要人員法已經有了不是你說不是你剛剛說的說我們要怎麼樣再去做更強的或者把他納入查核在我們現有的第26條第一項第二款裡面已經有了可是你們並沒有這樣做尤其是部長帶進來的機要人員他的重要的貼身隨緣你們會這樣做嗎因為在2024年3月\n\n09:02.723 --> 09:08.170\n吳部長就是吳秘書長已經要求這個何仁傑他必須要去職那時候有查查他有洩露什麼樣的機密才讓他去職嗎或者他很容易的就辭職了\n\n09:17.318 --> 09:45.305\n那那個我們報告委員我們第一個是說對於機要人用機要的身份認用的我們都有特別查核那麼對於其他的人員我們會進行一般查核那麼至於說委員剛才提到的是說有關於這個這個核心的這個前任之意那麼為什麼在去年3月的時候被部長要求這個去職這個詳情我們因為我那個時候還沒有在部裡面服務並不了解我們請那個政風人員幫我們回答一下\n\n09:47.579 --> 10:04.127\n報告委員根據我們的了解他不是被吳前部長要求離職的是他自己主動要因為家庭的因素所以他那麼久的時間沒有人發現他是可能蘆葦共諜了嘛是不是\n\n10:04.827 --> 10:06.369\n他去職他離職都沒有人發現沒關係那個後續他是被要求去職或者他自己自動離職這個我們再釐清喔這個因為今天時間的關係我為什麼要特別講是因為今天既然大家對於國安的這個\n\n10:22.984 --> 10:26.386\n可能產生的疏漏那應該要怎麼樣去強化或怎麼樣去教育是每一個單位都要做到的因為部長您今天您身為國防部長就你剛上任的時候你開始提到你要用檢法的思維所以受到很多我們的軍事官兵大家非常的認同可是今天的報告裡面又提到似乎對於像一些主管館\n\n10:50.539 --> 11:09.063\n你要做的又有要恢復連坐的這樣子的概念沒有不是連坐的概念我們是會就這個相關被滲透的這個責任的部分我們要來看看他有沒有一些相關的一些責任的疏失我想這個部分是不一樣\n\n11:11.844 --> 11:20.008\n因為召喚人員他的召喚單位要依主官主管幕僚主管督導體系要強烈責任關係這個就是像過去的連坐啊那今天如果軍中要這樣做也沒有關係如果我們認為共諜是非常嚴重的像我們剛剛提到的非常多的我們的高層單位比如像外交部國安會像總統府其實這些也是非常重要的一個單位\n\n11:41.639 --> 11:50.201\n像這樣子如果他下面包括他的的隨緣啊或者姿意啊發生這樣的事情那他們也需要連坐嗎因為有責任的歸屬啊人是誰帶進來的或者他是怎麼樣用這些人然後都沒有發現當你發生洩露這樣重要的機密的時候那他需要去做這樣子的責任的一個連帶的一個追究嗎\n\n12:09.066 --> 12:32.015\n部長我想您對軍方有這樣子的要求如果是這樣那應該要全面性的就要這樣做我們主要是在他的行政管理面要看看他有沒有疏則而不是說一律的連坐這個部分先澄清一下那另外行政院我想就已經就我了解已經院長已經也要求這個行政院檢討全面的這些\n\n12:33.598 --> 12:49.051\n會涉密公職人員要如何來進行這個查核這個部分我想因為有涉及到一些相關能量的問題就是說因為法務部調查局有沒有足夠的人員來做這樣子我想這個都還在等行政院來\n\n12:49.931 --> 12:55.533\n來檢討這樣部長因為我在這裡要特別提醒就是說我剛剛提到的因為您上來以後你把連坐法檢法的思維讓大家覺得說這是非常好大家如果自己犯錯應該要自己去承擔所有的責任當然如果在行政上面有重大瑕疵那個沒有話講可是如果你是用連坐的這樣的概念那其實在所有的單位所有的\n\n13:16.338 --> 13:21.141\n一些相關的部門其實都應該要有一致的作為那最後再一點點時間我再請教因為今天大家都說想要限制不管是立委也好或者像很多的村里長啦或者宗教人士等等其實本席也尊重也認同如果我們的像這樣子被滲透的問題這麼嚴重的話我們建議其實只要出國都應該要報備\n\n13:43.576 --> 13:46.977\n因為過去我舉例羅賢哲少將他當時判刑確定成為共諜的時候媒體透露他除了駐泰國的武官被吸收的時候他期間以軍事交流、研討會休假的名義出國甚至到各地交付資料他有去過泰國、去過美國、去過新加坡他就是沒有去中國大陸\n\n14:09.282 --> 14:12.285\n那他去中國他沒有去中國他還是淪為共諜如果而且這個對象不是只有哪一黨的人喔也不是只有在哪一個階層的人如果有這樣的必要的時候只要要出國其實我認為全部都要報備因為\n\n14:27.981 --> 14:34.283\n我們現在看到去中國就是中共同路人會洩露國安機密可是有很多並不是這樣做的他去泰國新加坡日本韓國美國甚至有些去旅透過去旅遊或者甚至在國外置產其實都沒有沒有機會被招收為共諜嗎這個部分大家可以共同的考慮如果我們要更嚴格要\n\n14:50.929 --> 14:57.451\n像其他的可能甚至獨裁國家因為他管制很多嘛就像以前要出國哇非常麻煩我們好不容易已經離開了那個年代如果現在慢慢慢慢慢慢的要這樣的限縮的時候我們希望只要可能有涉密的所有的相關人員你只要要出這個國門都應該要有相同的一個規範謝謝部長怎麼看\n\n15:16.906 --> 15:33.548\n有一些部門就有了解像國安會或者我們國安部一些接觸一些全員的話,大家都要做人員管制然後出國都一定要報課,然後回來要回報這樣子\n\n15:35.678 --> 15:58.428\n相關人員我們現在已經提到是所有的立法委員甚至助理或者甚至村里長或者甚至其他的宗教人士如果有的話因為你既然會被吸收因為不一定在哪裡很多人喜歡去澳門賭博那在澳門其實也很容易啊之前也有發生過所以這個部分大家可以審慎的去考量如果要我們就全面的讓他更嚴謹的去實施我想這樣對我們國家的安全更有保障謝謝\n\n16:06.788 --> 16:08.061\n謝馬文金委員上台\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.39,"end":5.208,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長還有國安局還有外交部"},{"start":13.927,"end":38.497,"text":"部長 部長早安首先先請教部長因為有看到相關的新聞特別提到軍方有新聞要增掉宮廟我想請教部長我們增掉宮廟的目的是什麼因為之前大家很擔心是要放那個彈藥嘛那在近期又有新聞去增掉宮廟是不是部長可以說明一下這個我"},{"start":42.338,"end":62.395,"text":"我想我也是看了那個文以後我才知道那我有跟陸軍了解他應該是要作為這個他們在這個戰備演訓的時候作為人員休息場所的使用但是那個韓文我覺得寫的內容寫的不是很清楚"},{"start":63.275,"end":69.101,"text":"造成誤解 我覺得這個要求陸軍要做檢討部長 因為您是人權律師那在法的部分 尤其在國際法裡面如果對於宗教的這些場域去作這樣軍事不管你放彈藥也好 放軍事人員也好其實它都會有違反兩公約的這樣的疑慮"},{"start":87.819,"end":91.18,"text":"因為對全世界來說你宗教的一個場所其實它包括戰爭的時候像醫院我們如果人民百姓當你的房子被炸或者你有需要有一個棲身之地的時候像這些宗教場所或者像醫院其實就是人民可以去的地方或者它就是不該被攻擊的地方可是我們今天如果把它混在一起會讓大家無所適從"},{"start":114.265,"end":117.767,"text":"這個部分我想國防部有必要清楚的說明你即使是休息你都應該清清楚楚的讓大家知道因為過去其實在過去的那個時間點其實大家都沒有太大的疑慮可是現在在這麼緊張的情況之下隨時好像"},{"start":133.315,"end":136.58,"text":"要做城鎮站的這種打算那大家就會希望其實應該要把它說明清楚大家應該要怎麼去因應或者應該怎麼對怎麼去做所以部長您這個部分是他們的說明是要做休息的處所"},{"start":150.429,"end":174.079,"text":"對 他們主要是要做那個人員的休息那這樣會不會對這樣造成疑慮因為你畢竟是軍人嘛就是這樣的部分你會不會造成像國際法裡面跟委員報告我想日內瓦公約的那個第一附加一定書它所謂禁止供給的是指對於構成各國人民文化或精神遺產的禮拜場所啦並不是"},{"start":175.019,"end":188.828,"text":"我想所有的這些您講的這些地點都構成這個所謂的因為它禮拜的場所我們跟其他國家也不太一樣可是我們的宗教的場所因為你所有的宮廟或寺廟全部都是一樣它就涵蓋這樣的一個稱呼裡面那你如果可以增掉一個那你其他的也可以這個部分我們認為應該要說明清楚對不對如果以部長您的看法就法的觀點"},{"start":202.737,"end":203.919,"text":"是不是應該要把它弄清楚因為我們在前年有修過一個法如果我們不管是公廟不管是學校他如果被"},{"start":215.635,"end":237.815,"text":"拿來使用比如說像你們用的爭調這樣子的一個字眼他就視同營區耶所以他的管理當時有提到如果視同營區就是你在營區裡面可以做的如果有人有做過什麼樣的行為舉動你都可以用那種強制的手段這個部分我們希望部長要把它理清楚好不好"},{"start":240.209,"end":262.741,"text":"委員好,我是法律司司長,委員講的應該是軍事營區安全條例的原案規範沒關係,你幫他講就不要再講法,就是這個部分會不會造成這樣的狀況因為你已經修改了啊,但你就視同營區啊我跟委員報告,那個軍事營區安全條例裡面不是說我們所有的東西都立刻視為營區,它會有一些要件啦那另外跟委員報告,委員您關心的這個宮廟的問題,剛剛部長也有講"},{"start":265.322,"end":270.586,"text":"日內瓦公約的第一附加議定書不要跟我們講日內瓦公約是不是有這樣的疑慮因為我們現在提到的如果你在宗教上面你不是用字義啊因為我們的宗教信仰跟其他的不一樣他大概是用這樣的字面意義可是我們現在要知道的是這些會不會有你到時候存放彈藥或者是你軍人駐守在那裡那就是營區的概念了嘛會不會"},{"start":291.202,"end":305.205,"text":"報委員這個在我們颱風驚馬首次作戰那我們現在的整個在我們的這個環境上面有非常非常多的公廟那但是不能夠直接把這些的公廟那你應該講清楚你們應該講清楚因為要讓人民知道你既然把這個列為你未來適同營區你應該讓人民清清楚楚的知道不是嗎"},{"start":313.722,"end":323.028,"text":"對但是我們也沒有說立刻他就會視同營區那什麼時候他可能是我們要另外要做公告要預告不是說我們今天人到那邊休息他就變成營區了因為你就是在你就是漢光演習或其他的教召你就已經是視同營區了回去再把它看清楚這個部分因為時間的關係部長我們還是希望"},{"start":333.655,"end":336.696,"text":"我們任何的公文你發出去以後讓全體人民知道因為你又要大家配合然後你又要大家在各個方面去怎麼樣調度或者像我們在演練的時候應該要有什麼地方去做一個棲身的地方這些應該都要更清楚嘛"},{"start":354.082,"end":365.866,"text":"我想簡單兩句話 第一個就是說沒有因為人員休息而就失容營區這樣子這是第一個 第二個我想這個發函的這個內容的這個部分不進周詳這個部分我們會請陸軍監督改進"},{"start":369.687,"end":376.252,"text":"部長因為你如果是休息那你就把休息寫清楚因為這個差很多如果是這樣你寫清楚大家沒有其他的想像嘛好 謝謝那另外今天大家在討論近期發生執政黨內有爆發疑似共諜滲透案的這個部分那國安會的吳祕書長也有我想要請教的是"},{"start":392.643,"end":400.449,"text":"國安會的吳秘書長他在外交部長任內他有議事過長期隨身的機要助理何仁傑他會被滲透嗎執政黨有曾想過他這麼重要的幹部會被滲透嗎"},{"start":407.914,"end":430.643,"text":"當執政黨一直在針對我像我看有好多位的委員一直在針對你說像村里長像我們的在野黨委員或者像所有的立法委員甚至助理等等其實我們要做一些相關的一個規範或查核那這樣子的做法你們到底有什麼樣的看法請問委員是要詢問本部還是要"},{"start":437.878,"end":454.623,"text":"我們外交部外交部可以講一下嗎沒有我們那個就像我們剛才報告裡面一樣我們持續的在精進我們相關的人員保房的這個作為如何精進那麼我們第一個當然是教育宣導第二個是說我們這個是不是能夠建議這個"},{"start":459.486,"end":480.684,"text":"我們的行政院或者是把相關的辦法因應現在的一個狀況然後做一個通盤的檢討那麼提交這個櫃院然後能夠對於相關的規範包括機要人員的查核現在目前來說的話只有根據公務人員的公務員法我先請教一下啦因為你如果要"},{"start":481.204,"end":485.185,"text":"就要迅速的去調整外交部今天的報告仍然是避重就輕的因為依照國家機密保護法第26條第一項第二款將這些接觸機密事項的機要人員列為洩密人員這個本來就有法在規範了"},{"start":498.169,"end":508.515,"text":"外交部對於連剛進去的科員其實都是列為涉密人員可是對於那些機要人員大概就是輕輕的放下因為外交部新聞給調查局請調查局查核部長要用的機要人員調查局會說這個人不行嗎"},{"start":516.859,"end":524.546,"text":"因為我們現在沒有看到你機要人員法已經有了不是你說不是你剛剛說的說我們要怎麼樣再去做更強的或者把他納入查核在我們現有的第26條第一項第二款裡面已經有了可是你們並沒有這樣做尤其是部長帶進來的機要人員他的重要的貼身隨緣你們會這樣做嗎因為在2024年3月"},{"start":542.723,"end":548.17,"text":"吳部長就是吳秘書長已經要求這個何仁傑他必須要去職那時候有查查他有洩露什麼樣的機密才讓他去職嗎或者他很容易的就辭職了"},{"start":557.318,"end":585.305,"text":"那那個我們報告委員我們第一個是說對於機要人用機要的身份認用的我們都有特別查核那麼對於其他的人員我們會進行一般查核那麼至於說委員剛才提到的是說有關於這個這個核心的這個前任之意那麼為什麼在去年3月的時候被部長要求這個去職這個詳情我們因為我那個時候還沒有在部裡面服務並不了解我們請那個政風人員幫我們回答一下"},{"start":587.579,"end":604.127,"text":"報告委員 根據我們的了解 他不是被吳前部長要求離職的是他自己主動要 因為家庭的因素所以他那麼久的時間 沒有人發現他是可能蘆葦共諜了嘛 是不是"},{"start":604.827,"end":606.369,"text":"他去職他離職都沒有人發現沒關係那個後續他是被要求去職或者他自己自動離職這個我們再釐清喔這個因為今天時間的關係我為什麼要特別講是因為今天既然大家對於國安的這個"},{"start":622.984,"end":626.386,"text":"可能產生的疏漏那應該要怎麼樣去強化或怎麼樣去教育是每一個單位都要做到的因為部長您今天您身為國防部長就你剛上任的時候你開始提到你要用檢法的思維所以受到很多我們的軍事官兵大家非常的認同可是今天的報告裡面又提到似乎對於像一些主管館"},{"start":650.539,"end":669.063,"text":"你要做的又有要恢復連坐的這樣子的概念沒有不是連坐的概念我們是會就這個相關被滲透的這個責任的部分我們要來看看他有沒有一些相關的一些責任的疏失我想這個部分是不一樣"},{"start":671.844,"end":680.008,"text":"因為召喚人員他的召喚單位要依主官主管幕僚主管督導體系要強烈責任關係這個就是像過去的連坐啊那今天如果軍中要這樣做也沒有關係如果我們認為共諜是非常嚴重的像我們剛剛提到的非常多的我們的高層單位比如像外交部國安會像總統府其實這些也是非常重要的一個單位"},{"start":701.639,"end":710.201,"text":"像這樣子如果他下面包括他的的隨緣啊或者姿意啊發生這樣的事情那他們也需要連坐嗎因為有責任的歸屬啊人是誰帶進來的或者他是怎麼樣用這些人然後都沒有發現當你發生洩露這樣重要的機密的時候那他需要去做這樣子的責任的一個連帶的一個追究嗎"},{"start":729.066,"end":752.015,"text":"部長我想您對軍方有這樣子的要求如果是這樣那應該要全面性的就要這樣做我們主要是在他的行政管理面要看看他有沒有疏則而不是說一律的連坐這個部分先澄清一下那另外行政院我想就已經就我了解已經院長已經也要求這個行政院檢討全面的這些"},{"start":753.598,"end":769.051,"text":"會涉密公職人員要如何來進行這個查核這個部分我想因為有涉及到一些相關能量的問題就是說因為法務部調查局有沒有足夠的人員來做這樣子我想這個都還在等行政院來"},{"start":769.931,"end":775.533,"text":"來檢討這樣部長因為我在這裡要特別提醒就是說我剛剛提到的因為您上來以後你把連坐法檢法的思維讓大家覺得說這是非常好大家如果自己犯錯應該要自己去承擔所有的責任當然如果在行政上面有重大瑕疵那個沒有話講可是如果你是用連坐的這樣的概念那其實在所有的單位所有的"},{"start":796.338,"end":801.141,"text":"一些相關的部門其實都應該要有一致的作為那最後再一點點時間我再請教因為今天大家都說想要限制不管是立委也好或者像很多的村里長啦或者宗教人士等等其實本席也尊重也認同如果我們的像這樣子被滲透的問題這麼嚴重的話我們建議其實只要出國都應該要報備"},{"start":823.576,"end":826.977,"text":"因為過去我舉例羅賢哲少將他當時判刑確定成為共諜的時候媒體透露他除了駐泰國的武官被吸收的時候他期間以軍事交流、研討會休假的名義出國甚至到各地交付資料他有去過泰國、去過美國、去過新加坡他就是沒有去中國大陸"},{"start":849.282,"end":852.285,"text":"那他去中國他沒有去中國他還是淪為共諜如果而且這個對象不是只有哪一黨的人喔也不是只有在哪一個階層的人如果有這樣的必要的時候只要要出國其實我認為全部都要報備因為"},{"start":867.981,"end":874.283,"text":"我們現在看到去中國就是中共同路人會洩露國安機密可是有很多並不是這樣做的他去泰國新加坡日本韓國美國甚至有些去旅透過去旅遊或者甚至在國外置產其實都沒有沒有機會被招收為共諜嗎這個部分大家可以共同的考慮如果我們要更嚴格要"},{"start":890.929,"end":897.451,"text":"像其他的 可能甚至獨裁國家因為他管制很多嘛 就像以前要出國 哇 非常麻煩我們好不容易已經離開了那個年代如果現在慢慢慢慢慢慢的要這樣的限縮的時候我們希望只要可能有涉密的所有的相關人員你只要要出這個國門都應該要有相同的一個規範謝謝 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面的更嚴謹的去實施，我想這樣對我們國家的安全更有保障，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員上臺質詢。","接下來由陳冠廷上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}}