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{\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"博\", \"start\": 116.75, \"end\": 116.89, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 116.89, \"end\": 117.29, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"館\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 117.29, \"end\": 117.57, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 117.57, \"end\": 117.811, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 117.811, \"end\": 117.931, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 117.931, \"end\": 118.071, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"博\", \"start\": 118.071, \"end\": 118.191, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 118.191, \"end\": 118.551, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"館\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 118.551, \"end\": 118.911, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 118.911, \"end\": 118.991, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 118.991, \"end\": 119.972, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 119.972, \"end\": 120.192, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 120.192, \"end\": 120.392, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 120.392, \"end\": 120.432, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 120.432, \"end\": 120.532, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 120.532, \"end\": 121.032, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 121.032, \"end\": 121.052, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 121.052, \"end\": 121.272, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 121.272, \"end\": 121.392, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 121.392, \"end\": 121.452, \"score\": 0.458}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 121.452, \"end\": 121.472, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"策\", 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\"片\", \"start\": 147.07, \"end\": 147.47, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 147.47, \"end\": 148.071, \"score\": 0.641}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 148.071, \"end\": 148.311, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 148.311, \"end\": 148.471, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 148.471, \"end\": 148.611, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 148.611, \"end\": 148.811, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 148.811, \"end\": 148.951, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 148.951, \"end\": 149.051, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 149.051, \"end\": 149.231, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 149.231, \"end\": 149.432, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 149.432, \"end\": 149.872, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 149.872, \"end\": 150.252, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"終\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 150.252, \"end\": 150.332, \"score\": 0.538}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 150.332, \"end\": 150.572, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 150.572, \"end\": 150.733, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 150.733, \"end\": 150.893, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 150.893, \"end\": 151.053, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 151.053, \"end\": 151.493, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 151.493, \"end\": 151.934, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 151.934, \"end\": 152.154, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 152.154, \"end\": 152.174, \"score\": 0.753}]}, {\"start\": 152.674, \"end\": 180.042, \"text\": \"那另外就是說我們其實跟這個海外藝文機構合作的包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫像布拉瑞昂啊 阿仁仁啊還有吳玉玲老師的展啊參加雪梨雙年展啊還有馬來西亞的那個JOJO藝術節啊還有桑布依啊這些其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關的作品的展出計畫尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行那也是很亮點的一個部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 152.674, \"end\": 152.834, 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{\"word\": \"還\"}]}, {\"start\": 321.869, \"end\": 340.819, \"text\": \"那當然理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆濕可以足以保存的設備但是現在有了這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏式都已經做得非常好甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館其實也都做得很好所以我想要請教一下市長就是文化部\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 321.869, \"end\": 322.209, \"score\": 0.544}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 322.209, \"end\": 322.449, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 322.449, \"end\": 322.569, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 322.569, \"end\": 322.75, \"score\": 0.642}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 322.75, \"end\": 322.85, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 322.85, \"end\": 323.71, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 323.71, \"end\": 324.07, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 324.07, \"end\": 324.29, \"score\": 0.609}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 324.29, \"end\": 324.39, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 324.39, \"end\": 325.691, 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0.991}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 393.744, \"end\": 394.265, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"館\"}, {\"word\": \"返\", \"start\": 394.265, \"end\": 394.745, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 394.745, \"end\": 394.906, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 394.906, \"end\": 395.026, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 395.026, \"end\": 395.526, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 395.526, \"end\": 395.707, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 395.707, \"end\": 395.727, \"score\": 0.976}]}, {\"start\": 396.007, \"end\": 412.524, \"text\": \"我覺得目前其實是在討論中如果問說文化部有沒有規模性的計畫性的進行這類的返還目前並沒有這樣的計畫對於博物館來說它還是以它的保存展示述說詮釋研究為主那所以我們很落伍喔\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 396.007, \"end\": 396.187, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 396.187, \"end\": 396.247, \"score\": 0.011}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 396.247, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 407.398, \"end\": 407.639, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 407.639, \"end\": 407.979, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 407.979, \"end\": 408.259, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 408.259, \"end\": 408.64, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 408.64, \"end\": 409.881, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"詮\"}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 409.881, \"end\": 410.101, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 410.101, \"end\": 410.682, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 410.682, \"end\": 411.242, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 411.242, \"end\": 411.603, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 411.603, \"end\": 411.623, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 411.623, \"end\": 411.763, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 411.763, \"end\": 411.923, \"score\": 0.618}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 411.923, \"end\": 412.123, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 412.123, \"end\": 412.323, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"伍\", \"start\": 412.323, \"end\": 412.504, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 412.504, \"end\": 412.524, \"score\": 0.006}]}, {\"start\": 413.044, \"end\": 436.019, \"text\": \"但是如果有這樣的返還其實只要有人提出文化部的做法是針對的個案我們就會開始進行評估我們就可以看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適至少有沒有掌握到台灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 413.044, \"end\": 413.204, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 413.204, \"end\": 413.324, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 413.324, \"end\": 413.564, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 413.564, \"end\": 413.885, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 413.885, \"end\": 414.425, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 414.425, \"end\": 414.625, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"返\", \"start\": 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\"text\": \"好 沒有那至少要做調研好嗎委員因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來所以你看我後面沒有人是因為他的資料沒有準備在手上那為什麼沒有來因為你們今天有專報啊我們因為主要是海外的部分那所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個關係那沒有關係那次長我跟您說我們可以再做事後補充園民會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 438.979, \"end\": 439.179, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 439.179, \"end\": 439.379, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 439.379, \"end\": 439.62, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 439.62, \"end\": 439.8, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 439.8, \"end\": 439.94, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 439.94, \"end\": 440.08, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 440.08, \"end\": 440.26, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 440.26, \"end\": 440.621, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 440.621, \"end\": 440.781, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 440.781, \"end\": 441.341, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 441.341, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 803.869, \"end\": 803.889, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,276 --> 00:00:09,308\n謝謝主席有請王次長\n\n2\n00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:40,169\n委員好次長好今天的專報我有看到你們特別提到在8月2號到8月20號文化部呢會一同的去來協助我們這一次在大阪的世界博覽會那在這裡有說你們要展現的是台灣文化藝術的獨特性那我事實上其實在去年的8月我也有就\n\n3\n00:00:41,169 --> 00:01:10,148\n今年度的日本大阪世博能不能够在台湾馆不论是它的环境展览的内容展售的商品还有它的表演团体的演出能不能有原住民文化的一个呈现所以我在这里想要先请教一下在这样经费被三减两千万行销费的状况下这一次文化部有没有准备跟原住民族文化相关的内容\n\n4\n00:01:10,848 --> 00:01:25,356\n一定會有跟委員報告原住民文化是台灣多元文化裡面一個非常重要的要素所以我們所有的出去展演要展現台灣的多元性一定會有原住民相關團體的表演那可不可以大概說一下怎麼規劃的\n\n5\n00:01:26,297 --> 00:01:51,268\n不好意思因為委員因為我們現在正在簽訂這些跟團體的合約我們可以事後補充OK那就事後給我一個報告跟委員說明一定有因為他們表現非常精彩我們去年去8號的時候也是有好幾團都是跟原住民文化相關的團體那也獲得很大的好評那就謝謝次長就規劃之後的內容麻煩給我一份報告那我今天的夜報同樣也看到就是文化部支持博物館\n\n6\n00:01:52,588 --> 00:02:01,692\n然後以台灣原生主題內容協助七個所屬博物館五個公司立博物館相關的民間團體要推動24項國際策展計畫我想了解一下這24項國際策展計畫大約有哪些主題\n\n7\n00:02:07,975 --> 00:02:32,174\n根文報告其實現在就在捷克從4月15號開始到9月28號現在在捷克就有一個展是跟原住民相關的是跟捷克國立技術博物館的合作是獵人之境海人之島是展這個達烏族夏曼蘭博安老師製作的拼板舟以及他的紀錄片那這個計畫其實我們整整支持了三年那終於在今年完成做這個展出\n\n8\n00:02:32,674 --> 00:03:00,042\n那另外就是說我們其實跟這個海外藝文機構合作的包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫像布拉瑞昂啊阿仁仁啊還有吳玉玲老師的展啊參加雪梨雙年展啊還有馬來西亞的那個JOJO藝術節啊還有桑布依啊這些其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關的作品的展出計畫尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行那也是很亮點的一個部分\n\n9\n00:03:00,342 --> 00:03:19,027\n所以謝謝次長意思就是說這24個國際展當中至少目前已經有兩個展跟原住民相關的展對我可以再去盤一下但我至少記憶中這兩個是一樣給我報告好嗎好的那為什麼我關心這個因為我們都知道原住民族博物館它其實在2032年要即將開館\n\n10\n00:03:23,348 --> 00:03:48,295\n那今年初剛剛成立籌備處已經開始在運作但是呢它面臨一個文物缺乏的問題那這個文物缺乏的問題其實一直以來都在博物館中被討論因為我們都知道博物館它其實也是一個殖民的一個遺序那我們也一直在討論解殖跟文物返還這件事情\n\n11\n00:03:48,855 --> 00:04:07,135\n那好比像這個紐約客雜誌的這個漫畫他就是在嘲諷你看這個導覽解說員或老師帶著學生說我們即將離開這個我們偷來別人文化的展廳我們要前往下一個就是我們花了很多錢買來的展廳\n\n12\n00:04:09,858 --> 00:04:28,529\n所以這個當中其實它展現了很多很多的意思有沒有一種炫耀有沒有一種呈現文化有高有低那為什麼有的是偷來的其實可能是掠奪而來的那有的是我們願意國家政府編很多的錢去花錢買來的那這樣的一個掠奪來的偷來的文物\n\n13\n00:04:32,751 --> 00:04:52,244\n我們願不願意返還還是覺得食之無味棄之可惜那為什麼我這樣講舉個例子像我們看到在台大前幾年大家在討論文物返還的時候他們做了一些範例像在2015年他們的第一個範例就是把\n\n14\n00:04:52,884 --> 00:05:21,069\n排灣族家平部落的四面祖靈柱他們所典藏的就是用一個結婚迎娶的方式就是留在台大博物館並不是文物返還那隔一年2016年呢他們又把另外一個地方來義鄉的旺家部落他們有一個雙面的祖靈柱他們用結拜的一個儀式把這個文物還是一樣留在台大並沒有做文物返還\n\n15\n00:05:21,869 --> 00:05:40,819\n那當然理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆濕可以足以保存的設備但是現在有了這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏式都已經做得非常好甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館其實也都做得很好所以我想要請教一下市長就是文化部\n\n16\n00:05:43,260 --> 00:06:03,214\n有沒有這種國內博物館文物返還部落的機制因為我自己前幾年為了牡丹社事件150周年去年是150周年我們在前幾年幫忙做了一件事就是去把收藏在英國愛丁堡牡丹社事件的遺骨返還\n\n17\n00:06:04,395 --> 00:06:15,943\n那像國外我們開始要去做這樣那文化部你們掌管全國的文化事務文化部到底有沒有這樣的一個文物返還的機制的思考\n\n18\n00:06:17,383 --> 00:06:35,727\n跟委員做報告陳柱委員所說的跟原住民相關的文物它的展出的脈絡跟歷史詮釋甚至比物件單純的展出來的更加的重要那至於委員提到的這個博物館返還部落的這個機制呢\n\n19\n00:06:36,007 --> 00:06:52,524\n我覺得目前其實是在討論中如果問說文化部有沒有規模性的計畫性的進行這類的返還目前並沒有這樣的計畫對於博物館來說它還是以它的保存展示述說詮釋研究為主那所以我們很落伍喔\n\n20\n00:06:53,044 --> 00:07:16,019\n但是如果有這樣的返還其實只要有人提出文化部的做法是針對的個案我們就會開始進行評估我們就可以看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適至少有沒有掌握到台灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏\n\n21\n00:07:18,979 --> 00:07:39,399\n好沒有那至少要做調研好嗎委員因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來所以你看我後面沒有人是因為他的資料沒有準備在手上那為什麼沒有來因為你們今天有專報啊我們因為主要是海外的部分那所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個關係那沒有關係那次長我跟您說我們可以再做事後補充園民會\n\n22\n00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:58,345\n有委託一個楊正賢老師去做歐洲博物館的一個調研我們看到在德國的柏林或者是萊比錫漢堡它都有很多原住民的文物甚至是在奧地利的維也納也都很多\n\n23\n00:07:59,626 --> 00:08:15,448\n這當中不僅有原住民的文物他也發現到很多漢文物那管方也都表示他們很希望可以跟台灣這邊一起來協助他們也很重視我們在地的意見也很願意合作那這個我只是要提到說\n\n24\n00:08:16,669 --> 00:08:39,501\n這個返還的基礎就是要先做調研嘛要不然就像我剛才問您我們可能也不清楚我們到底有多少可是我們可以看到在維也納你看這個泰雅族的被豬頭市或者是在柏林我們有看到泰雅族的獵首帶這些等等那像這樣子我們就是希望文化部可以支持台灣原住民族博物館跟國際民族博物館做文物交流\n\n25\n00:08:43,523 --> 00:09:03,231\n那這個當中其實我要講的就是說找不到計畫了我今天會來質詢就是好多人想做這些事情但是找不到計畫為什麼這樣說像文化部有一個補助文化團體及個人從事文化交流活動的處理要點裡面很多被推薦因為他都說要有展演\n\n26\n00:09:04,051 --> 00:09:23,556\n天啊難道我們原住民的交流已經被刻板印象化定著在一定要去做這樣的一個所謂的展演交流剛才說明這完全是誤解是不會是針對原住民要去做展演這個文化交流的目的因為他是做國際宣傳是做國際台灣文化推廣所以展演是他的要件好那我請教次長\n\n27\n00:09:30,478 --> 00:09:42,367\n像這個是蘭嶼的平板舟如果他要去做國際的交流他一定要他所謂的展演是什麼就是展示出這個平板舟或者展示出這個紀錄那為什麼會沒有辦法獲得補助應該是補助的內容跟補助的項目那我們還是專業的\n\n28\n00:09:48,851 --> 00:10:03,463\n對那不是只要提就一定會有補助不然我們也不會有捷克的這一個補助它就是針對拼板周的展示而且這個拼板周事後還會被這個捷克的國立技術博物館來做收藏這種計畫才是我們願意支持的計畫所以你們不願意支持的計畫是哪一種\n\n29\n00:10:06,946 --> 00:10:16,916\n我們如果對國際交流沒有影響力如果他只是一個自己去而沒有對方的禮遇沒有對方的接待沒有宣傳的管道沒有展演公開的機會我們就請向不及職權\n\n30\n00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:36,108\n我們所有原住民族我們要做文化交流充滿熱血熱情的這些文物也好表演團體也好都必須要受到文化部來給我們做指示來幫我們評分\n\n31\n00:10:38,922 --> 00:10:53,252\n跟委員報告不是委員剛剛問的是如果你要申請這一項交流補助計畫需要的要件我只是回答如果您要申請這項補助我們的條件是這樣那如果我們的熱情都被文化部打敗了呢有非常多的原住民團體跟研究得到了這一項交流計畫不然布拉楊這些團體不會在文化部的支持下成為這麼耀眼的團體所以次長這個就是我們所有文化團體所不滿意的地方因為你們有所謂的民心\n\n32\n00:11:09,783 --> 00:11:16,728\n你們認為出國過的那個才夠世界水準我覺得做一個文化部的態度不可以這樣我們的沃土是在台灣這片土地上但是不能夠去展現要吃過楊墨水才有水準\n\n33\n00:11:27,475 --> 00:11:49,826\n布拉洋當初也沒有出過國就得到了補助你可以告訴我除了布拉洛洋你還能夠舉哪一些人可以我們可以提供我們的名單我們有非常多原住民的團體都非常精彩我們去年去巴黎這個花蓮的團體太古團體也都跟著我們出國所以次長您是說這一些團體您都知道是誰妳都知道他們不入流\n\n34\n00:11:50,606 --> 00:12:06,931\n沒有我說的是有已經在沒有出國的經驗下我的出國表演的我其實有好幾個案例包括我們想要去做小米的一個出版做策展但是我們多少個很重要的\n\n35\n00:12:07,811 --> 00:12:33,950\n可能都被你們的計畫都說沒有辦法找不到科目或者是不符合計畫我們還是必須用同一標準我想原住民團體也希望跟大家的標準是同一的而不是一個例外的標準當然不是例外的標準請委員理解大家都是站在同一個標準我們當然都能理解但是次長你現在的你的耳朵是沒有打開的喔我很打開我希望委員也為我打開你的耳朵那您知道這一些有多少嗎\n\n36\n00:12:36,431 --> 00:13:05,871\n我們坐在這個位置上我們聽多少人的抱怨沒有辦法拿到文化部的補助但是他會一再的努力你們總是告訴人家說找不到科目沒有辦法補助你不符合裡面的要項那你這樣子把所有文化人的熱情都打消了也有很多文化團體有得到補助啊但當然也有沒有得到補助的這個是在補助獎勵的機制下出現的必然那次長我可以邀請您到辦公室我們一起來了解嗎\n\n37\n00:13:07,012 --> 00:13:23,889\n好如果委員有需要雖然這不是我非常需要我要跟委員說明這好沒問題只要委員有需要我們就是努力溝通好謝謝次長好那我就先暫時到這邊好謝謝主席好謝謝吳立華委員次長請回那我們現在休息十分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7276\t9308\t謝謝主席有請王次長\n14400\t40169\t委員好次長好今天的專報我有看到你們特別提到在8月2號到8月20號文化部呢會一同的去來協助我們這一次在大阪的世界博覽會那在這裡有說你們要展現的是台灣文化藝術的獨特性那我事實上其實在去年的8月我也有就\n41169\t70148\t今年度的日本大阪世博能不能够在台湾馆不论是它的环境展览的内容展售的商品还有它的表演团体的演出能不能有原住民文化的一个呈现所以我在这里想要先请教一下在这样经费被三减两千万行销费的状况下这一次文化部有没有准备跟原住民族文化相关的内容\n70848\t85356\t一定會有跟委員報告原住民文化是台灣多元文化裡面一個非常重要的要素所以我們所有的出去展演要展現台灣的多元性一定會有原住民相關團體的表演那可不可以大概說一下怎麼規劃的\n86297\t111268\t不好意思因為委員因為我們現在正在簽訂這些跟團體的合約我們可以事後補充OK那就事後給我一個報告跟委員說明一定有因為他們表現非常精彩我們去年去8號的時候也是有好幾團都是跟原住民文化相關的團體那也獲得很大的好評那就謝謝次長就規劃之後的內容麻煩給我一份報告那我今天的夜報同樣也看到就是文化部支持博物館\n112588\t121692\t然後以台灣原生主題內容協助七個所屬博物館五個公司立博物館相關的民間團體要推動24項國際策展計畫我想了解一下這24項國際策展計畫大約有哪些主題\n127975\t152174\t根文報告其實現在就在捷克從4月15號開始到9月28號現在在捷克就有一個展是跟原住民相關的是跟捷克國立技術博物館的合作是獵人之境 海人之島是展這個達烏族夏曼蘭博安老師製作的拼板舟以及他的紀錄片那這個計畫其實我們整整支持了三年那終於在今年完成做這個展出\n152674\t180042\t那另外就是說我們其實跟這個海外藝文機構合作的包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫像布拉瑞昂啊 阿仁仁啊還有吳玉玲老師的展啊參加雪梨雙年展啊還有馬來西亞的那個JOJO藝術節啊還有桑布依啊這些其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關的作品的展出計畫尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行那也是很亮點的一個部分\n180342\t199027\t所以謝謝次長意思就是說這24個國際展當中至少目前已經有兩個展跟原住民相關的展對我可以再去盤一下但我至少記憶中這兩個是一樣給我報告好嗎好的那為什麼我關心這個因為我們都知道原住民族博物館它其實在2032年要即將開館\n203348\t228295\t那今年初剛剛成立籌備處已經開始在運作但是呢它面臨一個文物缺乏的問題那這個文物缺乏的問題其實一直以來都在博物館中被討論因為我們都知道博物館它其實也是一個殖民的一個遺序那我們也一直在討論解殖跟文物返還這件事情\n228855\t247135\t那好比像這個紐約客雜誌的這個漫畫他就是在嘲諷你看這個導覽解說員或老師帶著學生說我們即將離開這個我們偷來別人文化的展廳我們要前往下一個就是我們花了很多錢買來的展廳\n249858\t268529\t所以這個當中其實它展現了很多很多的意思有沒有一種炫耀有沒有一種呈現文化有高有低那為什麼有的是偷來的其實可能是掠奪而來的那有的是我們願意國家政府編很多的錢去花錢買來的那這樣的一個掠奪來的偷來的文物\n272751\t292244\t我們願不願意返還還是覺得食之無味 棄之可惜那為什麼我這樣講 舉個例子像我們看到在台大前幾年大家在討論文物返還的時候他們做了一些範例像在2015年他們的第一個範例就是把\n292884\t321069\t排灣族家平部落的四面祖靈柱他們所典藏的就是用一個結婚迎娶的方式就是留在台大博物館並不是文物返還那隔一年2016年呢他們又把另外一個地方來義鄉的旺家部落他們有一個雙面的祖靈柱他們用結拜的一個儀式把這個文物還是一樣留在台大並沒有做文物返還\n321869\t340819\t那當然理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆濕可以足以保存的設備但是現在有了這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏式都已經做得非常好甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館其實也都做得很好所以我想要請教一下市長就是文化部\n343260\t363214\t有沒有這種國內博物館文物返還部落的機制因為我自己前幾年為了牡丹社事件150周年去年是150周年我們在前幾年幫忙做了一件事就是去把收藏在英國愛丁堡牡丹社事件的遺骨返還\n364395\t375943\t那像國外我們開始要去做這樣那文化部你們掌管全國的文化事務文化部到底有沒有這樣的一個文物返還的機制的思考\n377383\t395727\t跟委員做報告陳柱委員所說的跟原住民相關的文物它的展出的脈絡跟歷史詮釋甚至比物件單純的展出來的更加的重要那至於委員提到的這個博物館返還部落的這個機制呢\n396007\t412524\t我覺得目前其實是在討論中如果問說文化部有沒有規模性的計畫性的進行這類的返還目前並沒有這樣的計畫對於博物館來說它還是以它的保存展示述說詮釋研究為主那所以我們很落伍喔\n413044\t436019\t但是如果有這樣的返還其實只要有人提出文化部的做法是針對的個案我們就會開始進行評估我們就可以看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適至少有沒有掌握到台灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏\n438979\t459399\t好 沒有那至少要做調研好嗎委員因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來所以你看我後面沒有人是因為他的資料沒有準備在手上那為什麼沒有來因為你們今天有專報啊我們因為主要是海外的部分那所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個關係那沒有關係那次長我跟您說我們可以再做事後補充園民會\n460680\t478345\t有委託一個楊正賢老師去做歐洲博物館的一個調研我們看到在德國的柏林或者是萊比錫漢堡它都有很多原住民的文物甚至是在奧地利的維也納也都很多\n479626\t495448\t這當中不僅有原住民的文物他也發現到很多漢文物那管方也都表示他們很希望可以跟台灣這邊一起來協助他們也很重視我們在地的意見也很願意合作那這個我只是要提到說\n496669\t519501\t這個返還的基礎就是要先做調研嘛要不然就像我剛才問您我們可能也不清楚我們到底有多少可是我們可以看到在維也納你看這個泰雅族的被豬頭市或者是在柏林我們有看到泰雅族的獵首帶這些等等那像這樣子我們就是希望文化部可以支持台灣原住民族博物館跟國際民族博物館做文物交流\n523523\t543231\t那這個當中其實我要講的就是說找不到計畫了我今天會來質詢就是好多人想做這些事情但是找不到計畫為什麼這樣說像文化部有一個補助文化團體及個人從事文化交流活動的處理要點裡面很多被推薦因為他都說要有展演\n544051\t563556\t天啊 難道我們原住民的交流已經被刻板印象化定著在一定要去做這樣的一個所謂的展演交流剛才說明這完全是誤解是不會是針對原住民要去做展演這個文化交流的目的因為他是做國際宣傳是做國際台灣文化推廣所以展演是他的要件好 那我請教次長\n570478\t582367\t像這個是蘭嶼的平板舟如果他要去做國際的交流他一定要他所謂的展演是什麼就是展示出這個平板舟或者展示出這個紀錄那為什麼會沒有辦法獲得補助應該是補助的內容跟補助的項目那我們還是專業的\n588851\t603463\t對 那不是只要提就一定會有補助不然我們也不會有捷克的這一個補助它就是針對拼板周的展示而且這個拼板周事後還會被這個捷克的國立技術博物館來做收藏這種計畫才是我們願意支持的計畫所以你們不願意支持的計畫是哪一種\n606946\t616916\t我們如果對國際交流沒有影響力如果他只是一個自己去而沒有對方的禮遇 沒有對方的接待沒有宣傳的管道沒有展演公開的機會我們就請向不及職權\n621840\t636108\t我們所有原住民族我們要做文化交流充滿熱血熱情的這些文物也好表演團體也好都必須要受到文化部來給我們做指示來幫我們評分\n638922\t653252\t跟委員報告不是委員剛剛問的是如果你要申請這一項交流補助計畫需要的要件我只是回答如果您要申請這項補助我們的條件是這樣那如果我們的熱情都被文化部打敗了呢有非常多的原住民團體跟研究得到了這一項交流計畫不然布拉楊這些團體不會在文化部的支持下成為這麼耀眼的團體所以次長這個就是我們所有文化團體所不滿意的地方因為你們有所謂的民心\n669783\t676728\t你們認為出國過的那個才夠世界水準我覺得做一個文化部的態度不可以這樣我們的沃土是在台灣這片土地上但是不能夠去展現要吃過楊墨水才有水準\n687475\t709826\t布拉洋當初也沒有出過國 就得到了補助你可以告訴我 除了布拉洛洋 你還能夠舉哪一些人可以 我們可以提供我們的名單我們有非常多原住民的團體 都非常精彩我們去年去巴黎 這個花蓮的團體 太古團體也都跟著我們出國所以次長您是說 這一些團體 您都知道是誰 妳都知道他們不入流\n710606\t726931\t沒有 我說的是有已經在沒有出國的經驗下我的出國表演的我其實有好幾個案例包括我們想要去做小米的一個出版做策展但是我們多少個很重要的\n727811\t753950\t可能都被你們的計畫都說沒有辦法找不到科目或者是不符合計畫我們還是必須用同一標準我想原住民團體也希望跟大家的標準是同一的而不是一個例外的標準當然不是例外的標準請委員理解大家都是站在同一個標準我們當然都能理解但是次長你現在的你的耳朵是沒有打開的喔我很打開我希望委員也為我打開你的耳朵那您知道這一些有多少嗎\n756431\t785871\t我們坐在這個位置上我們聽多少人的抱怨沒有辦法拿到文化部的補助但是他會一再的努力你們總是告訴人家說找不到科目沒有辦法補助你不符合裡面的要項那你這樣子把所有文化人的熱情都打消了也有很多文化團體有得到補助啊但當然也有沒有得到補助的這個是在補助獎勵的機制下出現的必然那次長我可以邀請您到辦公室我們一起來了解嗎\n787012\t803889\t好如果委員有需要雖然這不是我非常需要我要跟委員說明這好沒問題只要委員有需要我們就是努力溝通好謝謝次長好那我就先暫時到這邊好謝謝主席好謝謝吳立華委員次長請回那我們現在休息十分鐘\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請王次長\n委員好次長好今天的專報我有看到你們特別提到在8月2號到8月20號文化部呢會一同的去來協助我們這一次在大阪的世界博覽會那在這裡有說你們要展現的是台灣文化藝術的獨特性那我事實上其實在去年的8月我也有就\n今年度的日本大阪世博能不能够在台湾馆不论是它的环境展览的内容展售的商品还有它的表演团体的演出能不能有原住民文化的一个呈现所以我在这里想要先请教一下在这样经费被三减两千万行销费的状况下这一次文化部有没有准备跟原住民族文化相关的内容\n一定會有跟委員報告原住民文化是台灣多元文化裡面一個非常重要的要素所以我們所有的出去展演要展現台灣的多元性一定會有原住民相關團體的表演那可不可以大概說一下怎麼規劃的\n不好意思因為委員因為我們現在正在簽訂這些跟團體的合約我們可以事後補充OK那就事後給我一個報告跟委員說明一定有因為他們表現非常精彩我們去年去8號的時候也是有好幾團都是跟原住民文化相關的團體那也獲得很大的好評那就謝謝次長就規劃之後的內容麻煩給我一份報告那我今天的夜報同樣也看到就是文化部支持博物館\n然後以台灣原生主題內容協助七個所屬博物館五個公司立博物館相關的民間團體要推動24項國際策展計畫我想了解一下這24項國際策展計畫大約有哪些主題\n根文報告其實現在就在捷克從4月15號開始到9月28號現在在捷克就有一個展是跟原住民相關的是跟捷克國立技術博物館的合作是獵人之境 海人之島是展這個達烏族夏曼蘭博安老師製作的拼板舟以及他的紀錄片那這個計畫其實我們整整支持了三年那終於在今年完成做這個展出\n那另外就是說我們其實跟這個海外藝文機構合作的包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫像布拉瑞昂啊 阿仁仁啊還有吳玉玲老師的展啊參加雪梨雙年展啊還有馬來西亞的那個JOJO藝術節啊還有桑布依啊這些其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關的作品的展出計畫尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行那也是很亮點的一個部分\n所以謝謝次長意思就是說這24個國際展當中至少目前已經有兩個展跟原住民相關的展對我可以再去盤一下但我至少記憶中這兩個是一樣給我報告好嗎好的那為什麼我關心這個因為我們都知道原住民族博物館它其實在2032年要即將開館\n那今年初剛剛成立籌備處已經開始在運作但是呢它面臨一個文物缺乏的問題那這個文物缺乏的問題其實一直以來都在博物館中被討論因為我們都知道博物館它其實也是一個殖民的一個遺序那我們也一直在討論解殖跟文物返還這件事情\n那好比像這個紐約客雜誌的這個漫畫他就是在嘲諷你看這個導覽解說員或老師帶著學生說我們即將離開這個我們偷來別人文化的展廳我們要前往下一個就是我們花了很多錢買來的展廳\n所以這個當中其實它展現了很多很多的意思有沒有一種炫耀有沒有一種呈現文化有高有低那為什麼有的是偷來的其實可能是掠奪而來的那有的是我們願意國家政府編很多的錢去花錢買來的那這樣的一個掠奪來的偷來的文物\n我們願不願意返還還是覺得食之無味 棄之可惜那為什麼我這樣講 舉個例子像我們看到在台大前幾年大家在討論文物返還的時候他們做了一些範例像在2015年他們的第一個範例就是把\n排灣族家平部落的四面祖靈柱他們所典藏的就是用一個結婚迎娶的方式就是留在台大博物館並不是文物返還那隔一年2016年呢他們又把另外一個地方來義鄉的旺家部落他們有一個雙面的祖靈柱他們用結拜的一個儀式把這個文物還是一樣留在台大並沒有做文物返還\n那當然理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆濕可以足以保存的設備但是現在有了這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏式都已經做得非常好甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館其實也都做得很好所以我想要請教一下市長就是文化部\n有沒有這種國內博物館文物返還部落的機制因為我自己前幾年為了牡丹社事件150周年去年是150周年我們在前幾年幫忙做了一件事就是去把收藏在英國愛丁堡牡丹社事件的遺骨返還\n那像國外我們開始要去做這樣那文化部你們掌管全國的文化事務文化部到底有沒有這樣的一個文物返還的機制的思考\n跟委員做報告陳柱委員所說的跟原住民相關的文物它的展出的脈絡跟歷史詮釋甚至比物件單純的展出來的更加的重要那至於委員提到的這個博物館返還部落的這個機制呢\n我覺得目前其實是在討論中如果問說文化部有沒有規模性的計畫性的進行這類的返還目前並沒有這樣的計畫對於博物館來說它還是以它的保存展示述說詮釋研究為主那所以我們很落伍喔\n但是如果有這樣的返還其實只要有人提出文化部的做法是針對的個案我們就會開始進行評估我們就可以看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適至少有沒有掌握到台灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏\n好 沒有那至少要做調研好嗎委員因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來所以你看我後面沒有人是因為他的資料沒有準備在手上那為什麼沒有來因為你們今天有專報啊我們因為主要是海外的部分那所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個關係那沒有關係那次長我跟您說我們可以再做事後補充園民會\n有委託一個楊正賢老師去做歐洲博物館的一個調研我們看到在德國的柏林或者是萊比錫漢堡它都有很多原住民的文物甚至是在奧地利的維也納也都很多\n這當中不僅有原住民的文物他也發現到很多漢文物那管方也都表示他們很希望可以跟台灣這邊一起來協助他們也很重視我們在地的意見也很願意合作那這個我只是要提到說\n這個返還的基礎就是要先做調研嘛要不然就像我剛才問您我們可能也不清楚我們到底有多少可是我們可以看到在維也納你看這個泰雅族的被豬頭市或者是在柏林我們有看到泰雅族的獵首帶這些等等那像這樣子我們就是希望文化部可以支持台灣原住民族博物館跟國際民族博物館做文物交流\n那這個當中其實我要講的就是說找不到計畫了我今天會來質詢就是好多人想做這些事情但是找不到計畫為什麼這樣說像文化部有一個補助文化團體及個人從事文化交流活動的處理要點裡面很多被推薦因為他都說要有展演\n天啊 難道我們原住民的交流已經被刻板印象化定著在一定要去做這樣的一個所謂的展演交流剛才說明這完全是誤解是不會是針對原住民要去做展演這個文化交流的目的因為他是做國際宣傳是做國際台灣文化推廣所以展演是他的要件好 那我請教次長\n像這個是蘭嶼的平板舟如果他要去做國際的交流他一定要他所謂的展演是什麼就是展示出這個平板舟或者展示出這個紀錄那為什麼會沒有辦法獲得補助應該是補助的內容跟補助的項目那我們還是專業的\n對 那不是只要提就一定會有補助不然我們也不會有捷克的這一個補助它就是針對拼板周的展示而且這個拼板周事後還會被這個捷克的國立技術博物館來做收藏這種計畫才是我們願意支持的計畫所以你們不願意支持的計畫是哪一種\n我們如果對國際交流沒有影響力如果他只是一個自己去而沒有對方的禮遇 沒有對方的接待沒有宣傳的管道沒有展演公開的機會我們就請向不及職權\n我們所有原住民族我們要做文化交流充滿熱血熱情的這些文物也好表演團體也好都必須要受到文化部來給我們做指示來幫我們評分\n跟委員報告不是委員剛剛問的是如果你要申請這一項交流補助計畫需要的要件我只是回答如果您要申請這項補助我們的條件是這樣那如果我們的熱情都被文化部打敗了呢有非常多的原住民團體跟研究得到了這一項交流計畫不然布拉楊這些團體不會在文化部的支持下成為這麼耀眼的團體所以次長這個就是我們所有文化團體所不滿意的地方因為你們有所謂的民心\n你們認為出國過的那個才夠世界水準我覺得做一個文化部的態度不可以這樣我們的沃土是在台灣這片土地上但是不能夠去展現要吃過楊墨水才有水準\n布拉洋當初也沒有出過國 就得到了補助你可以告訴我 除了布拉洛洋 你還能夠舉哪一些人可以 我們可以提供我們的名單我們有非常多原住民的團體 都非常精彩我們去年去巴黎 這個花蓮的團體 太古團體也都跟著我們出國所以次長您是說 這一些團體 您都知道是誰 妳都知道他們不入流\n沒有 我說的是有已經在沒有出國的經驗下我的出國表演的我其實有好幾個案例包括我們想要去做小米的一個出版做策展但是我們多少個很重要的\n可能都被你們的計畫都說沒有辦法找不到科目或者是不符合計畫我們還是必須用同一標準我想原住民團體也希望跟大家的標準是同一的而不是一個例外的標準當然不是例外的標準請委員理解大家都是站在同一個標準我們當然都能理解但是次長你現在的你的耳朵是沒有打開的喔我很打開我希望委員也為我打開你的耳朵那您知道這一些有多少嗎\n我們坐在這個位置上我們聽多少人的抱怨沒有辦法拿到文化部的補助但是他會一再的努力你們總是告訴人家說找不到科目沒有辦法補助你不符合裡面的要項那你這樣子把所有文化人的熱情都打消了也有很多文化團體有得到補助啊但當然也有沒有得到補助的這個是在補助獎勵的機制下出現的必然那次長我可以邀請您到辦公室我們一起來了解嗎\n好如果委員有需要雖然這不是我非常需要我要跟委員說明這好沒問題只要委員有需要我們就是努力溝通好謝謝次長好那我就先暫時到這邊好謝謝主席好謝謝吳立華委員次長請回那我們現在休息十分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.276 --> 00:09.308\n謝謝主席有請王次長\n\n00:14.400 --> 00:40.169\n委員好次長好今天的專報我有看到你們特別提到在8月2號到8月20號文化部呢會一同的去來協助我們這一次在大阪的世界博覽會那在這裡有說你們要展現的是台灣文化藝術的獨特性那我事實上其實在去年的8月我也有就\n\n00:41.169 --> 01:10.148\n今年度的日本大阪世博能不能够在台湾馆不论是它的环境展览的内容展售的商品还有它的表演团体的演出能不能有原住民文化的一个呈现所以我在这里想要先请教一下在这样经费被三减两千万行销费的状况下这一次文化部有没有准备跟原住民族文化相关的内容\n\n01:10.848 --> 01:25.356\n一定會有跟委員報告原住民文化是台灣多元文化裡面一個非常重要的要素所以我們所有的出去展演要展現台灣的多元性一定會有原住民相關團體的表演那可不可以大概說一下怎麼規劃的\n\n01:26.297 --> 01:51.268\n不好意思因為委員因為我們現在正在簽訂這些跟團體的合約我們可以事後補充OK那就事後給我一個報告跟委員說明一定有因為他們表現非常精彩我們去年去8號的時候也是有好幾團都是跟原住民文化相關的團體那也獲得很大的好評那就謝謝次長就規劃之後的內容麻煩給我一份報告那我今天的夜報同樣也看到就是文化部支持博物館\n\n01:52.588 --> 02:01.692\n然後以台灣原生主題內容協助七個所屬博物館五個公司立博物館相關的民間團體要推動24項國際策展計畫我想了解一下這24項國際策展計畫大約有哪些主題\n\n02:07.975 --> 02:32.174\n根文報告其實現在就在捷克從4月15號開始到9月28號現在在捷克就有一個展是跟原住民相關的是跟捷克國立技術博物館的合作是獵人之境海人之島是展這個達烏族夏曼蘭博安老師製作的拼板舟以及他的紀錄片那這個計畫其實我們整整支持了三年那終於在今年完成做這個展出\n\n02:32.674 --> 03:00.042\n那另外就是說我們其實跟這個海外藝文機構合作的包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫像布拉瑞昂啊阿仁仁啊還有吳玉玲老師的展啊參加雪梨雙年展啊還有馬來西亞的那個JOJO藝術節啊還有桑布依啊這些其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關的作品的展出計畫尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行那也是很亮點的一個部分\n\n03:00.342 --> 03:19.027\n所以謝謝次長意思就是說這24個國際展當中至少目前已經有兩個展跟原住民相關的展對我可以再去盤一下但我至少記憶中這兩個是一樣給我報告好嗎好的那為什麼我關心這個因為我們都知道原住民族博物館它其實在2032年要即將開館\n\n03:23.348 --> 03:48.295\n那今年初剛剛成立籌備處已經開始在運作但是呢它面臨一個文物缺乏的問題那這個文物缺乏的問題其實一直以來都在博物館中被討論因為我們都知道博物館它其實也是一個殖民的一個遺序那我們也一直在討論解殖跟文物返還這件事情\n\n03:48.855 --> 04:07.135\n那好比像這個紐約客雜誌的這個漫畫他就是在嘲諷你看這個導覽解說員或老師帶著學生說我們即將離開這個我們偷來別人文化的展廳我們要前往下一個就是我們花了很多錢買來的展廳\n\n04:09.858 --> 04:28.529\n所以這個當中其實它展現了很多很多的意思有沒有一種炫耀有沒有一種呈現文化有高有低那為什麼有的是偷來的其實可能是掠奪而來的那有的是我們願意國家政府編很多的錢去花錢買來的那這樣的一個掠奪來的偷來的文物\n\n04:32.751 --> 04:52.244\n我們願不願意返還還是覺得食之無味棄之可惜那為什麼我這樣講舉個例子像我們看到在台大前幾年大家在討論文物返還的時候他們做了一些範例像在2015年他們的第一個範例就是把\n\n04:52.884 --> 05:21.069\n排灣族家平部落的四面祖靈柱他們所典藏的就是用一個結婚迎娶的方式就是留在台大博物館並不是文物返還那隔一年2016年呢他們又把另外一個地方來義鄉的旺家部落他們有一個雙面的祖靈柱他們用結拜的一個儀式把這個文物還是一樣留在台大並沒有做文物返還\n\n05:21.869 --> 05:40.819\n那當然理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆濕可以足以保存的設備但是現在有了這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏式都已經做得非常好甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館其實也都做得很好所以我想要請教一下市長就是文化部\n\n05:43.260 --> 06:03.214\n有沒有這種國內博物館文物返還部落的機制因為我自己前幾年為了牡丹社事件150周年去年是150周年我們在前幾年幫忙做了一件事就是去把收藏在英國愛丁堡牡丹社事件的遺骨返還\n\n06:04.395 --> 06:15.943\n那像國外我們開始要去做這樣那文化部你們掌管全國的文化事務文化部到底有沒有這樣的一個文物返還的機制的思考\n\n06:17.383 --> 06:35.727\n跟委員做報告陳柱委員所說的跟原住民相關的文物它的展出的脈絡跟歷史詮釋甚至比物件單純的展出來的更加的重要那至於委員提到的這個博物館返還部落的這個機制呢\n\n06:36.007 --> 06:52.524\n我覺得目前其實是在討論中如果問說文化部有沒有規模性的計畫性的進行這類的返還目前並沒有這樣的計畫對於博物館來說它還是以它的保存展示述說詮釋研究為主那所以我們很落伍喔\n\n06:53.044 --> 07:16.019\n但是如果有這樣的返還其實只要有人提出文化部的做法是針對的個案我們就會開始進行評估我們就可以看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適至少有沒有掌握到台灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏\n\n07:18.979 --> 07:39.399\n好沒有那至少要做調研好嗎委員因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來所以你看我後面沒有人是因為他的資料沒有準備在手上那為什麼沒有來因為你們今天有專報啊我們因為主要是海外的部分那所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個關係那沒有關係那次長我跟您說我們可以再做事後補充園民會\n\n07:40.680 --> 07:58.345\n有委託一個楊正賢老師去做歐洲博物館的一個調研我們看到在德國的柏林或者是萊比錫漢堡它都有很多原住民的文物甚至是在奧地利的維也納也都很多\n\n07:59.626 --> 08:15.448\n這當中不僅有原住民的文物他也發現到很多漢文物那管方也都表示他們很希望可以跟台灣這邊一起來協助他們也很重視我們在地的意見也很願意合作那這個我只是要提到說\n\n08:16.669 --> 08:39.501\n這個返還的基礎就是要先做調研嘛要不然就像我剛才問您我們可能也不清楚我們到底有多少可是我們可以看到在維也納你看這個泰雅族的被豬頭市或者是在柏林我們有看到泰雅族的獵首帶這些等等那像這樣子我們就是希望文化部可以支持台灣原住民族博物館跟國際民族博物館做文物交流\n\n08:43.523 --> 09:03.231\n那這個當中其實我要講的就是說找不到計畫了我今天會來質詢就是好多人想做這些事情但是找不到計畫為什麼這樣說像文化部有一個補助文化團體及個人從事文化交流活動的處理要點裡面很多被推薦因為他都說要有展演\n\n09:04.051 --> 09:23.556\n天啊難道我們原住民的交流已經被刻板印象化定著在一定要去做這樣的一個所謂的展演交流剛才說明這完全是誤解是不會是針對原住民要去做展演這個文化交流的目的因為他是做國際宣傳是做國際台灣文化推廣所以展演是他的要件好那我請教次長\n\n09:30.478 --> 09:42.367\n像這個是蘭嶼的平板舟如果他要去做國際的交流他一定要他所謂的展演是什麼就是展示出這個平板舟或者展示出這個紀錄那為什麼會沒有辦法獲得補助應該是補助的內容跟補助的項目那我們還是專業的\n\n09:48.851 --> 10:03.463\n對那不是只要提就一定會有補助不然我們也不會有捷克的這一個補助它就是針對拼板周的展示而且這個拼板周事後還會被這個捷克的國立技術博物館來做收藏這種計畫才是我們願意支持的計畫所以你們不願意支持的計畫是哪一種\n\n10:06.946 --> 10:16.916\n我們如果對國際交流沒有影響力如果他只是一個自己去而沒有對方的禮遇沒有對方的接待沒有宣傳的管道沒有展演公開的機會我們就請向不及職權\n\n10:21.840 --> 10:36.108\n我們所有原住民族我們要做文化交流充滿熱血熱情的這些文物也好表演團體也好都必須要受到文化部來給我們做指示來幫我們評分\n\n10:38.922 --> 10:53.252\n跟委員報告不是委員剛剛問的是如果你要申請這一項交流補助計畫需要的要件我只是回答如果您要申請這項補助我們的條件是這樣那如果我們的熱情都被文化部打敗了呢有非常多的原住民團體跟研究得到了這一項交流計畫不然布拉楊這些團體不會在文化部的支持下成為這麼耀眼的團體所以次長這個就是我們所有文化團體所不滿意的地方因為你們有所謂的民心\n\n11:09.783 --> 11:16.728\n你們認為出國過的那個才夠世界水準我覺得做一個文化部的態度不可以這樣我們的沃土是在台灣這片土地上但是不能夠去展現要吃過楊墨水才有水準\n\n11:27.475 --> 11:49.826\n布拉洋當初也沒有出過國就得到了補助你可以告訴我除了布拉洛洋你還能夠舉哪一些人可以我們可以提供我們的名單我們有非常多原住民的團體都非常精彩我們去年去巴黎這個花蓮的團體太古團體也都跟著我們出國所以次長您是說這一些團體您都知道是誰妳都知道他們不入流\n\n11:50.606 --> 12:06.931\n沒有我說的是有已經在沒有出國的經驗下我的出國表演的我其實有好幾個案例包括我們想要去做小米的一個出版做策展但是我們多少個很重要的\n\n12:07.811 --> 12:33.950\n可能都被你們的計畫都說沒有辦法找不到科目或者是不符合計畫我們還是必須用同一標準我想原住民團體也希望跟大家的標準是同一的而不是一個例外的標準當然不是例外的標準請委員理解大家都是站在同一個標準我們當然都能理解但是次長你現在的你的耳朵是沒有打開的喔我很打開我希望委員也為我打開你的耳朵那您知道這一些有多少嗎\n\n12:36.431 --> 13:05.871\n我們坐在這個位置上我們聽多少人的抱怨沒有辦法拿到文化部的補助但是他會一再的努力你們總是告訴人家說找不到科目沒有辦法補助你不符合裡面的要項那你這樣子把所有文化人的熱情都打消了也有很多文化團體有得到補助啊但當然也有沒有得到補助的這個是在補助獎勵的機制下出現的必然那次長我可以邀請您到辦公室我們一起來了解嗎\n\n13:07.012 --> 13:23.889\n好如果委員有需要雖然這不是我非常需要我要跟委員說明這好沒問題只要委員有需要我們就是努力溝通好謝謝次長好那我就先暫時到這邊好謝謝主席好謝謝吳立華委員次長請回那我們現在休息十分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.276,"end":9.308,"text":"謝謝主席有請王次長"},{"start":14.4,"end":40.169,"text":"委員好次長好今天的專報我有看到你們特別提到在8月2號到8月20號文化部呢會一同的去來協助我們這一次在大阪的世界博覽會那在這裡有說你們要展現的是台灣文化藝術的獨特性那我事實上其實在去年的8月我也有就"},{"start":41.169,"end":70.148,"text":"今年度的日本大阪世博能不能够在台湾馆不论是它的环境展览的内容展售的商品还有它的表演团体的演出能不能有原住民文化的一个呈现所以我在这里想要先请教一下在这样经费被三减两千万行销费的状况下这一次文化部有没有准备跟原住民族文化相关的内容"},{"start":70.848,"end":85.356,"text":"一定會有跟委員報告原住民文化是台灣多元文化裡面一個非常重要的要素所以我們所有的出去展演要展現台灣的多元性一定會有原住民相關團體的表演那可不可以大概說一下怎麼規劃的"},{"start":86.297,"end":111.268,"text":"不好意思因為委員因為我們現在正在簽訂這些跟團體的合約我們可以事後補充OK那就事後給我一個報告跟委員說明一定有因為他們表現非常精彩我們去年去8號的時候也是有好幾團都是跟原住民文化相關的團體那也獲得很大的好評那就謝謝次長就規劃之後的內容麻煩給我一份報告那我今天的夜報同樣也看到就是文化部支持博物館"},{"start":112.588,"end":121.692,"text":"然後以台灣原生主題內容協助七個所屬博物館五個公司立博物館相關的民間團體要推動24項國際策展計畫我想了解一下這24項國際策展計畫大約有哪些主題"},{"start":127.975,"end":152.174,"text":"根文報告其實現在就在捷克從4月15號開始到9月28號現在在捷克就有一個展是跟原住民相關的是跟捷克國立技術博物館的合作是獵人之境 海人之島是展這個達烏族夏曼蘭博安老師製作的拼板舟以及他的紀錄片那這個計畫其實我們整整支持了三年那終於在今年完成做這個展出"},{"start":152.674,"end":180.042,"text":"那另外就是說我們其實跟這個海外藝文機構合作的包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫像布拉瑞昂啊 阿仁仁啊還有吳玉玲老師的展啊參加雪梨雙年展啊還有馬來西亞的那個JOJO藝術節啊還有桑布依啊這些其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關的作品的展出計畫尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行那也是很亮點的一個部分"},{"start":180.342,"end":199.027,"text":"所以謝謝次長意思就是說這24個國際展當中至少目前已經有兩個展跟原住民相關的展對我可以再去盤一下但我至少記憶中這兩個是一樣給我報告好嗎好的那為什麼我關心這個因為我們都知道原住民族博物館它其實在2032年要即將開館"},{"start":203.348,"end":228.295,"text":"那今年初剛剛成立籌備處已經開始在運作但是呢它面臨一個文物缺乏的問題那這個文物缺乏的問題其實一直以來都在博物館中被討論因為我們都知道博物館它其實也是一個殖民的一個遺序那我們也一直在討論解殖跟文物返還這件事情"},{"start":228.855,"end":247.135,"text":"那好比像這個紐約客雜誌的這個漫畫他就是在嘲諷你看這個導覽解說員或老師帶著學生說我們即將離開這個我們偷來別人文化的展廳我們要前往下一個就是我們花了很多錢買來的展廳"},{"start":249.858,"end":268.529,"text":"所以這個當中其實它展現了很多很多的意思有沒有一種炫耀有沒有一種呈現文化有高有低那為什麼有的是偷來的其實可能是掠奪而來的那有的是我們願意國家政府編很多的錢去花錢買來的那這樣的一個掠奪來的偷來的文物"},{"start":272.751,"end":292.244,"text":"我們願不願意返還還是覺得食之無味 棄之可惜那為什麼我這樣講 舉個例子像我們看到在台大前幾年大家在討論文物返還的時候他們做了一些範例像在2015年他們的第一個範例就是把"},{"start":292.884,"end":321.069,"text":"排灣族家平部落的四面祖靈柱他們所典藏的就是用一個結婚迎娶的方式就是留在台大博物館並不是文物返還那隔一年2016年呢他們又把另外一個地方來義鄉的旺家部落他們有一個雙面的祖靈柱他們用結拜的一個儀式把這個文物還是一樣留在台大並沒有做文物返還"},{"start":321.869,"end":340.819,"text":"那當然理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆濕可以足以保存的設備但是現在有了這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏式都已經做得非常好甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館其實也都做得很好所以我想要請教一下市長就是文化部"},{"start":343.26,"end":363.214,"text":"有沒有這種國內博物館文物返還部落的機制因為我自己前幾年為了牡丹社事件150周年去年是150周年我們在前幾年幫忙做了一件事就是去把收藏在英國愛丁堡牡丹社事件的遺骨返還"},{"start":364.395,"end":375.943,"text":"那像國外我們開始要去做這樣那文化部你們掌管全國的文化事務文化部到底有沒有這樣的一個文物返還的機制的思考"},{"start":377.383,"end":395.727,"text":"跟委員做報告陳柱委員所說的跟原住民相關的文物它的展出的脈絡跟歷史詮釋甚至比物件單純的展出來的更加的重要那至於委員提到的這個博物館返還部落的這個機制呢"},{"start":396.007,"end":412.524,"text":"我覺得目前其實是在討論中如果問說文化部有沒有規模性的計畫性的進行這類的返還目前並沒有這樣的計畫對於博物館來說它還是以它的保存展示述說詮釋研究為主那所以我們很落伍喔"},{"start":413.044,"end":436.019,"text":"但是如果有這樣的返還其實只要有人提出文化部的做法是針對的個案我們就會開始進行評估我們就可以看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適至少有沒有掌握到台灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏"},{"start":438.979,"end":459.399,"text":"好 沒有那至少要做調研好嗎委員因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來所以你看我後面沒有人是因為他的資料沒有準備在手上那為什麼沒有來因為你們今天有專報啊我們因為主要是海外的部分那所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個關係那沒有關係那次長我跟您說我們可以再做事後補充園民會"},{"start":460.68,"end":478.345,"text":"有委託一個楊正賢老師去做歐洲博物館的一個調研我們看到在德國的柏林或者是萊比錫漢堡它都有很多原住民的文物甚至是在奧地利的維也納也都很多"},{"start":479.626,"end":495.448,"text":"這當中不僅有原住民的文物他也發現到很多漢文物那管方也都表示他們很希望可以跟台灣這邊一起來協助他們也很重視我們在地的意見也很願意合作那這個我只是要提到說"},{"start":496.669,"end":519.501,"text":"這個返還的基礎就是要先做調研嘛要不然就像我剛才問您我們可能也不清楚我們到底有多少可是我們可以看到在維也納你看這個泰雅族的被豬頭市或者是在柏林我們有看到泰雅族的獵首帶這些等等那像這樣子我們就是希望文化部可以支持台灣原住民族博物館跟國際民族博物館做文物交流"},{"start":523.523,"end":543.231,"text":"那這個當中其實我要講的就是說找不到計畫了我今天會來質詢就是好多人想做這些事情但是找不到計畫為什麼這樣說像文化部有一個補助文化團體及個人從事文化交流活動的處理要點裡面很多被推薦因為他都說要有展演"},{"start":544.051,"end":563.556,"text":"天啊 難道我們原住民的交流已經被刻板印象化定著在一定要去做這樣的一個所謂的展演交流剛才說明這完全是誤解是不會是針對原住民要去做展演這個文化交流的目的因為他是做國際宣傳是做國際台灣文化推廣所以展演是他的要件好 那我請教次長"},{"start":570.478,"end":582.367,"text":"像這個是蘭嶼的平板舟如果他要去做國際的交流他一定要他所謂的展演是什麼就是展示出這個平板舟或者展示出這個紀錄那為什麼會沒有辦法獲得補助應該是補助的內容跟補助的項目那我們還是專業的"},{"start":588.851,"end":603.463,"text":"對 那不是只要提就一定會有補助不然我們也不會有捷克的這一個補助它就是針對拼板周的展示而且這個拼板周事後還會被這個捷克的國立技術博物館來做收藏這種計畫才是我們願意支持的計畫所以你們不願意支持的計畫是哪一種"},{"start":606.946,"end":616.916,"text":"我們如果對國際交流沒有影響力如果他只是一個自己去而沒有對方的禮遇 沒有對方的接待沒有宣傳的管道沒有展演公開的機會我們就請向不及職權"},{"start":621.84,"end":636.108,"text":"我們所有原住民族我們要做文化交流充滿熱血熱情的這些文物也好表演團體也好都必須要受到文化部來給我們做指示來幫我們評分"},{"start":638.922,"end":653.252,"text":"跟委員報告不是委員剛剛問的是如果你要申請這一項交流補助計畫需要的要件我只是回答如果您要申請這項補助我們的條件是這樣那如果我們的熱情都被文化部打敗了呢有非常多的原住民團體跟研究得到了這一項交流計畫不然布拉楊這些團體不會在文化部的支持下成為這麼耀眼的團體所以次長這個就是我們所有文化團體所不滿意的地方因為你們有所謂的民心"},{"start":669.783,"end":676.728,"text":"你們認為出國過的那個才夠世界水準我覺得做一個文化部的態度不可以這樣我們的沃土是在台灣這片土地上但是不能夠去展現要吃過楊墨水才有水準"},{"start":687.475,"end":709.826,"text":"布拉洋當初也沒有出過國 就得到了補助你可以告訴我 除了布拉洛洋 你還能夠舉哪一些人可以 我們可以提供我們的名單我們有非常多原住民的團體 都非常精彩我們去年去巴黎 這個花蓮的團體 太古團體也都跟著我們出國所以次長您是說 這一些團體 您都知道是誰 妳都知道他們不入流"},{"start":710.606,"end":726.931,"text":"沒有 我說的是有已經在沒有出國的經驗下我的出國表演的我其實有好幾個案例包括我們想要去做小米的一個出版做策展但是我們多少個很重要的"},{"start":727.811,"end":753.95,"text":"可能都被你們的計畫都說沒有辦法找不到科目或者是不符合計畫我們還是必須用同一標準我想原住民團體也希望跟大家的標準是同一的而不是一個例外的標準當然不是例外的標準請委員理解大家都是站在同一個標準我們當然都能理解但是次長你現在的你的耳朵是沒有打開的喔我很打開我希望委員也為我打開你的耳朵那您知道這一些有多少嗎"},{"start":756.431,"end":785.871,"text":"我們坐在這個位置上我們聽多少人的抱怨沒有辦法拿到文化部的補助但是他會一再的努力你們總是告訴人家說找不到科目沒有辦法補助你不符合裡面的要項那你這樣子把所有文化人的熱情都打消了也有很多文化團體有得到補助啊但當然也有沒有得到補助的這個是在補助獎勵的機制下出現的必然那次長我可以邀請您到辦公室我們一起來了解嗎"},{"start":787.012,"end":803.889,"text":"好如果委員有需要雖然這不是我非常需要我要跟委員說明這好沒問題只要委員有需要我們就是努力溝通好謝謝次長好那我就先暫時到這邊好謝謝主席好謝謝吳立華委員次長請回那我們現在休息十分鐘"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時51分）謝謝主席，有請王次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。今天的專報我有看到你們特別提到在8月2號到8月20號，文化部會協助我們參加大阪的文化博覽會，你們說，要展現臺灣文化藝術的獨特性。其實在去年的8月我就今年度日本大阪世博能不能夠在臺灣館，不論是它的環境、展覽的內容、展售的商品還有它的表演團體的演出，能不能有原住民文化的呈現提問。所以我在這裡想要先請教一下，在被刪減2,000萬行銷費的狀況下，這一次文化部有沒有準備跟原住民族文化相關的內容？"],["王次長時思：一定有。跟委員報告，原住民文化是臺灣多元文化裡面一個非常重要的要素，所以所有出去的展演，要展現臺灣的多元性，一定會有原住民相關團體的表演，不管是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可不可以大概說一下怎麼規劃的？"],["王次長時思：不好意思，委員，因為我們現在正在簽訂團體合約，我們可以事後補充。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK，就事後給我報告。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，一定有，因為他們的表現非常精彩，我們去年去巴奧也有好幾團都是跟原住民文化相關的團體，也獲得很大的好評。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長，規劃之後的內容麻煩給我一份報告。"],["王次長時思：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我在今天的業報同樣也看到，就是文化部支持博物館，然後以臺灣原生主題內容協助7個所屬博物館、5個公私立博物館、相關的民間團體要推動24項國際策展計畫。我想了解一下，這24項國際策展計畫大約有哪些主題？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，其實現在就在捷克，從4月15號開始到9月28號，有一個展是跟原住民相關的，是跟捷克國立技術博物館的合作──是「獵人之徑．海人之道」、是展達悟族夏曼．藍波安老師製作的拼板舟以及他的紀錄片。這個計畫其實我們整整支持了3年，終於在今年完成展出。另外，我們跟海外藝文機構合作的，包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫，像布拉瑞揚、阿仍仍，還有武玉玲老師的展、參加雪梨雙年展，還有馬來西亞的喬治市藝術節，還有桑布伊。其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關作品的展出計畫，尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行，也是很有亮點的一個部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：意思就是說這24個國際展當中……"],["王次長時思：一定有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是至少目前已經有2個跟原住民相關的展？"],["王次長時思：對，我可以再去盤一下，但我至少記憶中這2個是很確定的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：一樣給我報告好嗎？"],["王次長時思：好的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我關心這個？因為我們都知道原住民族博物館即將在2032年開館，今年初剛剛成立籌備處，已經開始在運作。但是它面臨一個文物缺乏的問題，而文物缺乏的問題其實一直以來都在博物館中被討論，因為我們都知道博物館其實也是一個殖民的遺緒，我們也一直在討論解殖跟文物返還這件事情。好比像紐約客雜誌的漫畫就是在嘲諷，你看導覽解說員或老師帶著學生說：我們即將離開這個我們偷來別人文化的展廳，我們要前往下一個，就是我們花了很多錢買來的展廳。它其實展現了很多很多的意思，有沒有一種炫耀？有沒有呈現了文化的有高有低？為什麼有的是偷來的？其實更可能是掠奪而來的！有的是國家政府願意編很多的錢去花錢買來的。這樣的一個掠奪來的、偷來的文物，願不願意返還？還是覺得食之無味、棄之可惜？為什麼我這樣講？舉個例子，前幾年大家在討論文物返還的時候，臺大做了一些範例。在2015年，他們的第一個範例就是把典藏的排灣族佳平部落的四面祖靈柱，用結婚迎娶的方式留在臺大博物館，並不是文物返還；隔一年2016年，他們又把來義鄉望嘉部落的雙面祖靈柱，用結拜的儀式把這個文物一樣留在臺大，並沒有做文物返還。當然，理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆溼、足以保存的設備，但是現在有了，這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏室都已經做得非常好，甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館，其實也都做得很好。所以我想要請教一下次長，就是文化部有沒有這種國內博物館文物返還部落的機制？我自己前幾年為了牡丹社事件150週年，去年是150週年，我們在前幾年幫忙做了一件事，就是去把收藏在英國愛丁堡牡丹社事件的遺骨返還。國外部分我們開始要去做這樣的事，那文化部掌管全國的文化事務，文化部到底有沒有文物返還機制的思考？"],["王次長時思：跟委員做報告，誠如委員所說的，跟原住民相關文物的展出脈絡跟歷史詮釋，甚至比物件單純展出來更加重要。至於委員提到的博物館返還部落文物的機制，目前其實是在討論中，如果問說文化部有沒有規模性地、計畫性地進行這一類的返還？目前並沒有這樣的計畫！對博物館來說，還是以它的保存展示、訴說、詮釋、研究為主……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們很落伍？"],["王次長時思：但是如果有這樣的返還機制，只要有人提出，文化部的作法是針對個案我們就會開始進行評估。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我就在這邊提出好不好？"],["王次長時思：可以，看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：文化部會來協助？"],["王次長時思：我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長。文化部有沒有掌握到臺灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏？沒有，至少要做調研，好嗎？"],["王次長時思：不是沒有，不好意思，委員，因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來，所以你看我後面沒有人，是因為資料沒有準備在手上，我們是不是再事後補充？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼沒有來？因為你們今天有專報啊！"],["王次長時思：今天主要是海外的部分，所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來，因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個館舍，我們可以再做事後補充。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，沒有關係。次長，我跟您說，原民會有委託楊政賢老師去做歐洲博物館的調研，我們看到在德國的柏林或者是萊比錫、漢堡，都有很多原住民的文物，甚至是在奧地利的維也納也都很多。這當中不僅有原住民的文物，他也發現到很多漢文物，館方也都表示，他們很希望可以跟臺灣一起協助，他們也很重視我們在地的意見，也很願意合作。我只是要說，返還的基礎就是要先做調研，要不然就像我剛才問您，我們可能也不清楚我們到底有多少。可是在維也納，我們可以看到泰雅族的貝珠頭飾；在柏林有看到泰雅族的獵首袋這些等等，像這樣子，我們就是希望文化部可以支持臺灣原住民族博物館跟國際民族博物館做文物交流，問題是找不到計畫！我今天會來質詢，就是好多人想做這些事情，但是找不到計畫！為什麼這樣說？像文化部有一個「文化部補助文化團體及個人從事文化交流活動處理要點」，很多申請案被退件，因為都說要有展演，天啊，難道我們原住民的交流已經被刻板印象化定著在一定要去做這樣一個展演？所謂的展演交流……"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，這完全是誤解，這不是針對原住民要求要去做展演，因為這個文化交流的目的是做國際宣傳、是去國際做臺灣文化推廣，所以展演是它的要件，這跟原住民文化沒有關係。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我請教次長，螢幕上這個是蘭嶼的拼板舟，如果它要去做國際的交流，所謂的展演是什麼？"],["王次長時思：它有展演啊，就是展示出這個拼板舟或者展示出這個紀錄，現在就有啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那為什麼會沒有辦法獲得補助？"],["王次長時思：應該是補助的內容跟補助的項目，我們還是專業的評審，並不是只要提出申請就一定會有補助，不然我們也不會有捷克的這個補助，它就是針對拼板舟的展示，而且這個拼板舟事後還會被捷克的國立技術博物館來收藏，這種計畫才是我們願意支持的計畫，它的影響會非常深遠。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們不願意支持的計畫是哪一種？"],["王次長時思：如果對國際交流沒有影響力，如果它只是自己去，沒有對方的禮遇、沒有對方的接待、沒有宣傳的管道、沒有展演公開機會，我們就傾向不支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，您這樣的說法是不是表示我們所有原住民族要做文化交流，充滿熱血、熱情的這些文物也好，表演團體也好，都必須要受到文化部給我們指示……"],["王次長時思：不是！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：來幫我們評分？"],["王次長時思：不是！跟委員報告，不是。委員剛剛問的是如果要申請這一項交流補助計畫所需要的要件，我只是回答如果您要申請這項補助，我們的條件是這樣，而……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果我們的熱情都被文化部打敗了呢？"],["王次長時思：事實上也證明有非常多的原住民團體跟研究得到了這一項交流計畫，不然布拉瑞揚這些團體不會在文化部的支持下成為這麼耀眼的團體。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以次長，這個就是我們所有文化團體不滿意的地方，因為你們有所謂的明星，你們認為出國過的才夠世界水準，我覺得文化部的態度不可以這樣……"],["王次長時思：不是，明星是培養出來的，不會天生就是明星……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們的沃土是在臺灣這片土地上……"],["王次長時思：所以要在臺灣耕耘……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是不能夠去展現，要吃過洋墨水的才有水準。"],["王次長時思：沒有，沒有這個限制，布拉瑞揚當初也沒有出過國就得到了補助，而是從培育，它可以培育出來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你可以告訴我，除了布拉瑞揚，你還能舉哪一些人為例？"],["王次長時思：可以，我們可以提供委員相關的名單，有非常多原住民的團體都非常精彩，我們去年去巴黎，花蓮的太鼓團體也都跟著我們出去，他們也都從來沒有出過國……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以次長您是說，這些團體您都知道是誰，你都知道他們不入流？"],["王次長時思：沒有！我說的是在沒有出國的經驗下而出國表演的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不是只有這樣，我其實有好幾個案例……"],["王次長時思：委員，請不要曲解我的意思，對原住民團體跟表演者的支持，文化部從來不落人後。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：包括我們想要做小米復育的出版及策展，但是我們多少個很重要的申請計畫，可能都被你們說沒有辦法、找不到科目或者是不符合計畫。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，我們還是必須用同一標準，我想原住民團體也希望跟大家的標準是同一的，而不是一個例外的標準，所以……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：當然不是例外的標準！"],["王次長時思：所以請委員理解，大家都是站在同一個標準。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們當然都能理解，但是次長，你現在的耳朵是沒有打開的喔……"],["王次長時思：我很打開，我希望委員也為我打開你的耳朵。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那您知道這一些有多少嗎？我們坐在這個位置上，我們聽到多少人的抱怨……"],["王次長時思：我們一樣有非常多的文化團體沒有辦法拿到文化部的補助，但是它會一再的努力，直到可以申請成功。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們總是告訴人家說找不到科目、沒有辦法補助、不符合裡面的要項……"],["王次長時思：不是找不到科目，是它有評審機制。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你這樣子把所有文化人的熱情都打消了。"],["王次長時思：沒有，也有很多文化團體有得到補助，但當然也有沒有得到補助的，這個是在補助獎勵的機制下出現的必然。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，我可以邀請您到辦公室，我們一起來了解嗎？"],["王次長時思：好，如果委員有需要，雖然這不是我……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我非常需要。"],["王次長時思：我要跟委員說明……好，沒問題，只要委員有需要，我們就是努力溝通。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長。","我的質詢就先暫時到這邊，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，次長請回。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時4分）","繼續開會（11時14分）"],["主席（伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員代）：現在繼續質詢。","請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":440,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","陳秀寳","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","林沛祥","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","何欣純","蔡易餘","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長王時思列席就「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00002"}}}