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\"請\"}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 635.583, \"end\": 635.703, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 635.703, \"end\": 636.043, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"宣\", \"start\": 636.043, \"end\": 636.063, \"score\": 0.525}, {\"word\": \"讀\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,350 --> 00:00:28,553\n市長陳委員好你好今天我剛剛看到我們的這個報告那在第二頁現行做法的部分請參閱一下在現行做法的部分有提到說涉及重大利益的職務要辦理特殊查核\n\n2\n00:00:29,639 --> 00:00:52,971\n那在外領人員跟約聘僱人員在禁用前要均辦理一般查核是昨天在調查局的這個好像局長他在回應其他人的質詢的時候似乎有提到說這個何信這個助理他過去有辦理過一次特殊查核是在進國安會之前那在外交部時有沒有辦理\n\n3\n00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:10,616\n他只有一般查核他的是用知意來聘僱的所以他是視同聘聘所以想請教一下所以像媒體所報導的他只有經過一次查核是對的還是錯的他在國安會之前有進行過特殊查核\n\n4\n00:01:10,936 --> 00:01:27,092\n但是到了外交部是一個一般查核所以他有經歷過一般查核那為什麼一般查核的時候沒有發現問題是不是我們一般查核的部分是不是有沒有外交部部內有沒有談論到未來一般查核的內容部分是不是要經過一些調整\n\n5\n00:01:28,293 --> 00:01:56,978\n因為一般報告委員一般查核的這個內容跟他的這個查的深度那麼是由調查局來做這個規範的那麼我們就是按照現在的這個公務人員這個服務法公務員服務法跟公務人員任用法這兩條的規定然後把它按照他所聘任的職位那麼送去這個分別進行這個特殊查核和一般查核\n\n6\n00:01:57,278 --> 00:02:22,204\n我先回應一下第一個這樣子的說法我想就表示說我們今天的這個會議裡面說要考核管制的具體做法你就等於是把它直接就交給去這個調查局你沒有在做內部的檢討說為什麼有經過查核之後那還是有發現這樣的問題嗎我們要的是跨部會的檢討而不是就是那就交給調查局然後第二點我也蠻驚訝就是說\n\n7\n00:02:23,504 --> 00:02:42,053\n有媒體那麼多次講說只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核但是你們沒有去澄清說不僅僅只有在國安會有特殊查核你們在外交部之前也有經過查核的這個該做的一般查核那這個新聞已經兩三天都在講好像說只有一次\n\n8\n00:02:43,214 --> 00:03:07,551\n沒有嘛你們其實有有完整的把該做的這些項目你們有完整的去做嗎你們也有把一般查核的部分把該員也有做一般查核我們這樣講對不對這個機會要跟媒體要澄清一下是我們那個一定對於這個外界來做這個我們事實上在這個這個核心的前任之役一等之役的這個案子發生之後我們也有在內部透過政風調查那麼做過查核那麼相關的內容我們也會\n\n9\n00:03:12,154 --> 00:03:34,605\n這個交給這個檢調機關那麼進行以利後續的這個辦案謝謝喔因為我還是強調因為不管是這個特殊查核大概是1154個職位是要做特殊查核那主要是偏用於機要或者是這個主任秘書一級單位的主管等等那可能就是偏向的是公務人員是\n\n10\n00:03:35,225 --> 00:03:52,435\n但是在約聘僱人員或者是說政務任命的就沒有那麼多我還是要強調說這個也是要檢討的範圍嘛因為我們都知道說該人員核心助理對他是約聘僱但是他接觸到的是什麼\n\n11\n00:03:53,516 --> 00:04:11,711\n包含行程等等全部都有接觸到那這麼重要的一個人物你用最簡單的方式一般查核是這是對的嗎那麼委員質詢的這個方向原本是我們未來改進精進的一個方向我們也希望就是說我希望外交部\n\n12\n00:04:12,672 --> 00:04:27,252\n能夠內部重新檢討過一次就昨天我有跟那個部長我們有在質詢前幾天有在質詢的時候就有提到啊不可以說就直接把這個東西調給法務部是你們決定這一個人的重要性是\n\n13\n00:04:29,829 --> 00:04:52,207\n你怎麼會用這樣的方式剛才我說的我們會跟國防部互動交流根據按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考之後精進檢討就是說不是以人的職位或者是職等而是以它揭秘的程度來作為好不好跟國防部學習一下因為我質詢顧部長從去年就質詢到現在\n\n14\n00:04:55,470 --> 00:05:18,285\n慢慢的都有在調整那甚至是在決定該員的揭密層級的時候部長在上次有提到啊就是說以後不是只有主觀來去決定啊美方有一個完整的檢討機制啊此人可能接觸到的密等不是有主觀一個人比方說官會諮詢委員那我就把你當成是一般就好了還甚至是沒有揭密\n\n15\n00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:47,869\n這都要檢討的而且是現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難這個美國中國之間的這樣的狀況之下我們希望你們內部先檢討一下是那麼感謝委員的催訓我們這個之後一定來這個相關的來檢討我來問一下是這個在合圓也好啦或者是無緣也好沒關係我們就先從外交部的部分來講是在這個在被發現之前有沒有任何內部的這個通報\n\n16\n00:05:50,168 --> 00:06:14,865\n有沒有任何他的同事來去做最近他的作為什麼的據我們的了解是說沒有看得到的為異常狀況所以沒有人通報嘛對不對沒有異常的通報對不對假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團個人來去接觸的話會不會有異常通報異常通報負責的單位是誰\n\n17\n00:06:18,988 --> 00:06:23,254\n振峰振峰為異常狀況的話我來講一下我現在手上的是這個DC\n\n18\n00:06:29,977 --> 00:06:48,953\nSA反情報手冊是由美國反情報安全局他們做的這個手冊這手冊的目的是什麼我們不要事後再來去捕破網我們事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候就必須要在第一時間來去回報\n\n19\n00:06:51,155 --> 00:07:06,066\n外交部要被回報的機構是什麼?是政風處嗎?就是如果有異常行為的話就會外交部我們大概是整合政風跟地域跟各個區域的私處來做相關的規範\n\n20\n00:07:08,188 --> 00:07:32,115\n我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來就是說他們有一個標準的做法我們現在做的不僅僅是在事後的調查我們要事前的反情報而且這不需要跨部會去做那包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼外國機構會用比如說你喜歡被認同啊所以會故意去問你一些這個跟你專業相關的問題啊讓你去講想些你的博學啊你會禮貌\n\n21\n00:07:33,155 --> 00:07:47,327\n甚至出外他們會透過外交單位來去跟你來接觸啊或者是透過這些智庫單位來去跟你去接觸啊或者是在第三地來去跟你去接觸啊那你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性你們低估這個職位的重要性啊\n\n22\n00:07:48,668 --> 00:08:12,010\n這些都是有可能的所以說未來通報必須要有義務的就是說外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當或者是授權不當的要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊來提供的時候你就必須要有這個機制所以外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習把這樣子的回報機制把它講出來在遇到這樣的時間點第一時間你必須要怎麼樣回報給部內是\n\n23\n00:08:13,571 --> 00:08:41,482\n所以我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查了而是事前的反情報內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在那其實調查這麼久了部內一無所知沒有做相關的防範的話也是不行的其實今天要講的很多啦還有包含在最後一點我國的這些外交人員如果他去到第三國就是非中國以外的第三國我們講說是非\n\n24\n00:08:43,393 --> 00:09:10,847\n歐盟跟美國以外他的通訊設備他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備可以出國嗎還是要全面換新你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整啊比方說你到港澳負責兩岸的事務的官員或許還是會有去港澳的這個可能性那如果這些我現在講的不是外交部我想的是比方說如果是涉及港澳的官員或者是中港澳的官員那他所帶的通訊設備包括那手機平板全部都要統一配發新的啊\n\n25\n00:09:11,912 --> 00:09:37,902\n外交部也是如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家是一回事但是如果是到非我建交的國家中國影響力大的國家你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討所以我們現在講的已經不是在事後再去追溯了我們現在講的是事前的防範反情報的一些方式麻煩一下外交部不能夠說這樣子推到說這個是調查局他可以做這個一般查核那我們已經把東西交給調查局了就跟你們無關了\n\n26\n00:09:39,042 --> 00:10:00,376\n不可以這樣子做好不好當然我們會持續的來檢討精進喔那麼對於人員的考核那我想過去的時候採取入職之前的一個調查而且我覺得有點狀況我還就是說奇怪怎麼這幾個月他在講這件事情的時候這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次就只有國安會入職之前查核一次問題是你們也有查核這件事情竟然到現在才\n\n27\n00:10:01,136 --> 00:10:25,865\n外交部有查核一次但是用一般的這個查核按照規定你也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核那這個特殊查核就是特殊查核你們有把你們的工作做好但是我要提到的是說人家媒體說你們沒有你這個時候第一時間也要反應我們現在不僅僅是國家安全的問題還有包含這些錯假亂訊息的這個第一時間的回覆都要做好謝謝\n\n28\n00:10:28,914 --> 00:10:36,063\n謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來我們現在處理臨時提案共兩案請醫事人員宣讀\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n350\t28553\t市長陳委員好你好今天我剛剛看到我們的這個報告那在第二頁現行做法的部分請參閱一下在現行做法的部分有提到說涉及重大利益的職務要辦理特殊查核\n29639\t52971\t那在外領人員跟約聘僱人員在禁用前要均辦理一般查核是昨天在調查局的這個好像局長他在回應其他人的質詢的時候似乎有提到說這個何信這個助理他過去有辦理過一次特殊查核是在進國安會之前那在外交部時有沒有辦理\n55640\t70616\t他只有一般查核他的是用知意來聘僱的所以他是視同聘聘所以想請教一下所以像媒體所報導的他只有經過一次查核是對的還是錯的他在國安會之前有進行過特殊查核\n70936\t87092\t但是到了外交部是一個一般查核所以他有經歷過一般查核那為什麼一般查核的時候沒有發現問題是不是我們一般查核的部分是不是有沒有外交部部內有沒有談論到未來一般查核的內容部分是不是要經過一些調整\n88293\t116978\t因為一般 報告委員一般查核的這個內容跟他的這個查的深度那麼是由調查局來做這個規範的那麼我們就是按照現在的這個公務人員這個服務法公務員服務法跟公務人員任用法這兩條的規定然後把它按照他所聘任的職位那麼送去這個分別進行這個特殊查核和一般查核\n117278\t142204\t我先回應一下第一個這樣子的說法我想就表示說我們今天的這個會議裡面說要考核管制的具體做法你就等於是把它直接就交給去這個調查局你沒有在做內部的檢討說為什麼有經過查核之後那還是有發現這樣的問題嗎我們要的是跨部會的檢討而不是就是那就交給調查局然後第二點我也蠻驚訝就是說\n143504\t162053\t有媒體那麼多次講說只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核但是你們沒有去澄清說不僅僅只有在國安會有特殊查核你們在外交部之前也有經過查核的這個該做的一般查核那這個新聞已經兩三天都在講好像說只有一次\n163214\t187551\t沒有嘛你們其實有有完整的把該做的這些項目你們有完整的去做嗎你們也有把一般查核的部分把該員也有做一般查核我們這樣講對不對這個機會要跟媒體要澄清一下是我們那個一定對於這個外界來做這個我們事實上在這個這個核心的前任之役一等之役的這個案子發生之後我們也有在內部透過政風調查那麼做過查核那麼相關的內容我們也會\n192154\t214605\t這個交給這個檢調機關那麼進行以利後續的這個辦案謝謝喔因為我還是強調因為不管是這個特殊查核大概是1154個職位是要做特殊查核那主要是偏用於機要或者是這個主任秘書一級單位的主管等等那可能就是偏向的是公務人員是\n215225\t232435\t但是在約聘僱人員或者是說政務任命的就沒有那麼多我還是要強調說這個也是要檢討的範圍嘛因為我們都知道說該人員核心助理對他是約聘僱但是他接觸到的是什麼\n233516\t251711\t包含行程等等全部都有接觸到那這麼重要的一個人物你用最簡單的方式一般查核是這是對的嗎那麼委員質詢的這個方向原本是我們未來改進精進的一個方向我們也希望就是說我希望外交部\n252672\t267252\t能夠內部重新檢討過一次就昨天我有跟那個部長我們有在質詢前幾天有在質詢的時候就有提到啊不可以說就直接把這個東西調給法務部是你們決定這一個人的重要性是\n269829\t292207\t你怎麼會用這樣的方式剛才我說的我們會跟國防部互動交流根據按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考之後精進檢討就是說不是以人的職位或者是職等而是以它揭秘的程度來作為好不好跟國防部學習一下因為我質詢顧部長從去年就質詢到現在\n295470\t318285\t慢慢的都有在調整那甚至是在決定該員的揭密層級的時候部長在上次有提到啊就是說以後不是只有主觀來去決定啊美方有一個完整的檢討機制啊此人可能接觸到的密等不是有主觀一個人比方說官會諮詢委員那我就把你當成是一般就好了還甚至是沒有揭密\n319600\t347869\t這都要檢討的而且是現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難這個美國中國之間的這樣的狀況之下我們希望你們內部先檢討一下是那麼感謝委員的催訓我們這個之後一定來這個相關的來檢討我來問一下是這個在合圓也好啦或者是無緣也好沒關係我們就先從外交部的部分來講是在這個在被發現之前有沒有任何內部的這個通報\n350168\t374865\t有沒有任何他的同事來去做最近他的作為什麼的據我們的了解是說沒有看得到的為異常狀況所以沒有人通報嘛對不對沒有異常的通報對不對假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團個人來去接觸的話會不會有異常通報異常通報負責的單位是誰\n378988\t383254\t振峰振峰為異常狀況的話我來講一下我現在手上的是這個DC\n389977\t408953\tSA反情報手冊是由美國反情報安全局他們做的這個手冊這手冊的目的是什麼我們不要事後再來去捕破網我們事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候就必須要在第一時間來去回報\n411155\t426066\t外交部要被回報的機構是什麼?是政風處嗎?就是如果有異常行為的話就會外交部我們大概是整合政風跟地域跟各個區域的私處來做相關的規範\n428188\t452115\t我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來就是說他們有一個標準的做法我們現在做的不僅僅是在事後的調查我們要事前的反情報而且這不需要跨部會去做那包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼外國機構會用比如說你喜歡被認同啊所以會故意去問你一些這個跟你專業相關的問題啊讓你去講想些你的博學啊你會禮貌\n453155\t467327\t甚至出外他們會透過外交單位來去跟你來接觸啊或者是透過這些智庫單位來去跟你去接觸啊或者是在第三地來去跟你去接觸啊那你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性你們低估這個職位的重要性啊\n468668\t492010\t這些都是有可能的所以說未來通報必須要有義務的就是說外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當或者是授權不當的要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊來提供的時候你就必須要有這個機制所以外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習把這樣子的回報機制把它講出來在遇到這樣的時間點第一時間你必須要怎麼樣回報給部內是\n493571\t521482\t所以我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查了而是事前的反情報內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在那其實調查這麼久了部內一無所知沒有做相關的防範的話也是不行的其實今天要講的很多啦還有包含在最後一點我國的這些外交人員如果他去到第三國就是非中國以外的第三國我們講說是非\n523393\t550847\t歐盟跟美國以外他的通訊設備他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備可以出國嗎還是要全面換新你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整啊比方說你到港澳負責兩岸的事務的官員或許還是會有去港澳的這個可能性那如果這些我現在講的不是外交部我想的是比方說如果是涉及港澳的官員或者是中港澳的官員那他所帶的通訊設備包括那手機平板全部都要統一配發新的啊\n551912\t577902\t外交部也是如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家是一回事但是如果是到非我建交的國家中國影響力大的國家你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討所以我們現在講的已經不是在事後再去追溯了我們現在講的是事前的防範反情報的一些方式麻煩一下外交部不能夠說這樣子推到說這個是調查局他可以做這個一般查核那我們已經把東西交給調查局了就跟你們無關了\n579042\t600376\t不可以這樣子做好不好當然我們會持續的來檢討精進喔那麼對於人員的考核那我想過去的時候採取入職之前的一個調查而且我覺得有點狀況我還就是說奇怪怎麼這幾個月他在講這件事情的時候這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次就只有國安會入職之前查核一次問題是你們也有查核這件事情竟然到現在才\n601136\t625865\t外交部有查核一次但是用一般的這個查核按照規定你也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核那這個特殊查核就是特殊查核你們有把你們的工作做好但是我要提到的是說人家媒體說你們沒有你這個時候第一時間也要反應我們現在不僅僅是國家安全的問題還有包含這些錯假亂訊息的這個第一時間的回覆都要做好 謝謝\n628914\t636063\t謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來我們現在處理臨時提案共兩案請醫事人員宣讀\n","txt":"市長陳委員好你好今天我剛剛看到我們的這個報告那在第二頁現行做法的部分請參閱一下在現行做法的部分有提到說涉及重大利益的職務要辦理特殊查核\n那在外領人員跟約聘僱人員在禁用前要均辦理一般查核是昨天在調查局的這個好像局長他在回應其他人的質詢的時候似乎有提到說這個何信這個助理他過去有辦理過一次特殊查核是在進國安會之前那在外交部時有沒有辦理\n他只有一般查核他的是用知意來聘僱的所以他是視同聘聘所以想請教一下所以像媒體所報導的他只有經過一次查核是對的還是錯的他在國安會之前有進行過特殊查核\n但是到了外交部是一個一般查核所以他有經歷過一般查核那為什麼一般查核的時候沒有發現問題是不是我們一般查核的部分是不是有沒有外交部部內有沒有談論到未來一般查核的內容部分是不是要經過一些調整\n因為一般 報告委員一般查核的這個內容跟他的這個查的深度那麼是由調查局來做這個規範的那麼我們就是按照現在的這個公務人員這個服務法公務員服務法跟公務人員任用法這兩條的規定然後把它按照他所聘任的職位那麼送去這個分別進行這個特殊查核和一般查核\n我先回應一下第一個這樣子的說法我想就表示說我們今天的這個會議裡面說要考核管制的具體做法你就等於是把它直接就交給去這個調查局你沒有在做內部的檢討說為什麼有經過查核之後那還是有發現這樣的問題嗎我們要的是跨部會的檢討而不是就是那就交給調查局然後第二點我也蠻驚訝就是說\n有媒體那麼多次講說只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核但是你們沒有去澄清說不僅僅只有在國安會有特殊查核你們在外交部之前也有經過查核的這個該做的一般查核那這個新聞已經兩三天都在講好像說只有一次\n沒有嘛你們其實有有完整的把該做的這些項目你們有完整的去做嗎你們也有把一般查核的部分把該員也有做一般查核我們這樣講對不對這個機會要跟媒體要澄清一下是我們那個一定對於這個外界來做這個我們事實上在這個這個核心的前任之役一等之役的這個案子發生之後我們也有在內部透過政風調查那麼做過查核那麼相關的內容我們也會\n這個交給這個檢調機關那麼進行以利後續的這個辦案謝謝喔因為我還是強調因為不管是這個特殊查核大概是1154個職位是要做特殊查核那主要是偏用於機要或者是這個主任秘書一級單位的主管等等那可能就是偏向的是公務人員是\n但是在約聘僱人員或者是說政務任命的就沒有那麼多我還是要強調說這個也是要檢討的範圍嘛因為我們都知道說該人員核心助理對他是約聘僱但是他接觸到的是什麼\n包含行程等等全部都有接觸到那這麼重要的一個人物你用最簡單的方式一般查核是這是對的嗎那麼委員質詢的這個方向原本是我們未來改進精進的一個方向我們也希望就是說我希望外交部\n能夠內部重新檢討過一次就昨天我有跟那個部長我們有在質詢前幾天有在質詢的時候就有提到啊不可以說就直接把這個東西調給法務部是你們決定這一個人的重要性是\n你怎麼會用這樣的方式剛才我說的我們會跟國防部互動交流根據按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考之後精進檢討就是說不是以人的職位或者是職等而是以它揭秘的程度來作為好不好跟國防部學習一下因為我質詢顧部長從去年就質詢到現在\n慢慢的都有在調整那甚至是在決定該員的揭密層級的時候部長在上次有提到啊就是說以後不是只有主觀來去決定啊美方有一個完整的檢討機制啊此人可能接觸到的密等不是有主觀一個人比方說官會諮詢委員那我就把你當成是一般就好了還甚至是沒有揭密\n這都要檢討的而且是現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難這個美國中國之間的這樣的狀況之下我們希望你們內部先檢討一下是那麼感謝委員的催訓我們這個之後一定來這個相關的來檢討我來問一下是這個在合圓也好啦或者是無緣也好沒關係我們就先從外交部的部分來講是在這個在被發現之前有沒有任何內部的這個通報\n有沒有任何他的同事來去做最近他的作為什麼的據我們的了解是說沒有看得到的為異常狀況所以沒有人通報嘛對不對沒有異常的通報對不對假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團個人來去接觸的話會不會有異常通報異常通報負責的單位是誰\n振峰振峰為異常狀況的話我來講一下我現在手上的是這個DC\nSA反情報手冊是由美國反情報安全局他們做的這個手冊這手冊的目的是什麼我們不要事後再來去捕破網我們事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候就必須要在第一時間來去回報\n外交部要被回報的機構是什麼?是政風處嗎?就是如果有異常行為的話就會外交部我們大概是整合政風跟地域跟各個區域的私處來做相關的規範\n我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來就是說他們有一個標準的做法我們現在做的不僅僅是在事後的調查我們要事前的反情報而且這不需要跨部會去做那包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼外國機構會用比如說你喜歡被認同啊所以會故意去問你一些這個跟你專業相關的問題啊讓你去講想些你的博學啊你會禮貌\n甚至出外他們會透過外交單位來去跟你來接觸啊或者是透過這些智庫單位來去跟你去接觸啊或者是在第三地來去跟你去接觸啊那你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性你們低估這個職位的重要性啊\n這些都是有可能的所以說未來通報必須要有義務的就是說外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當或者是授權不當的要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊來提供的時候你就必須要有這個機制所以外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習把這樣子的回報機制把它講出來在遇到這樣的時間點第一時間你必須要怎麼樣回報給部內是\n所以我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查了而是事前的反情報內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在那其實調查這麼久了部內一無所知沒有做相關的防範的話也是不行的其實今天要講的很多啦還有包含在最後一點我國的這些外交人員如果他去到第三國就是非中國以外的第三國我們講說是非\n歐盟跟美國以外他的通訊設備他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備可以出國嗎還是要全面換新你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整啊比方說你到港澳負責兩岸的事務的官員或許還是會有去港澳的這個可能性那如果這些我現在講的不是外交部我想的是比方說如果是涉及港澳的官員或者是中港澳的官員那他所帶的通訊設備包括那手機平板全部都要統一配發新的啊\n外交部也是如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家是一回事但是如果是到非我建交的國家中國影響力大的國家你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討所以我們現在講的已經不是在事後再去追溯了我們現在講的是事前的防範反情報的一些方式麻煩一下外交部不能夠說這樣子推到說這個是調查局他可以做這個一般查核那我們已經把東西交給調查局了就跟你們無關了\n不可以這樣子做好不好當然我們會持續的來檢討精進喔那麼對於人員的考核那我想過去的時候採取入職之前的一個調查而且我覺得有點狀況我還就是說奇怪怎麼這幾個月他在講這件事情的時候這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次就只有國安會入職之前查核一次問題是你們也有查核這件事情竟然到現在才\n外交部有查核一次但是用一般的這個查核按照規定你也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核那這個特殊查核就是特殊查核你們有把你們的工作做好但是我要提到的是說人家媒體說你們沒有你這個時候第一時間也要反應我們現在不僅僅是國家安全的問題還有包含這些錯假亂訊息的這個第一時間的回覆都要做好 謝謝\n謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來我們現在處理臨時提案共兩案請醫事人員宣讀\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.350 --> 00:28.553\n市長陳委員好你好今天我剛剛看到我們的這個報告那在第二頁現行做法的部分請參閱一下在現行做法的部分有提到說涉及重大利益的職務要辦理特殊查核\n\n00:29.639 --> 00:52.971\n那在外領人員跟約聘僱人員在禁用前要均辦理一般查核是昨天在調查局的這個好像局長他在回應其他人的質詢的時候似乎有提到說這個何信這個助理他過去有辦理過一次特殊查核是在進國安會之前那在外交部時有沒有辦理\n\n00:55.640 --> 01:10.616\n他只有一般查核他的是用知意來聘僱的所以他是視同聘聘所以想請教一下所以像媒體所報導的他只有經過一次查核是對的還是錯的他在國安會之前有進行過特殊查核\n\n01:10.936 --> 01:27.092\n但是到了外交部是一個一般查核所以他有經歷過一般查核那為什麼一般查核的時候沒有發現問題是不是我們一般查核的部分是不是有沒有外交部部內有沒有談論到未來一般查核的內容部分是不是要經過一些調整\n\n01:28.293 --> 01:56.978\n因為一般報告委員一般查核的這個內容跟他的這個查的深度那麼是由調查局來做這個規範的那麼我們就是按照現在的這個公務人員這個服務法公務員服務法跟公務人員任用法這兩條的規定然後把它按照他所聘任的職位那麼送去這個分別進行這個特殊查核和一般查核\n\n01:57.278 --> 02:22.204\n我先回應一下第一個這樣子的說法我想就表示說我們今天的這個會議裡面說要考核管制的具體做法你就等於是把它直接就交給去這個調查局你沒有在做內部的檢討說為什麼有經過查核之後那還是有發現這樣的問題嗎我們要的是跨部會的檢討而不是就是那就交給調查局然後第二點我也蠻驚訝就是說\n\n02:23.504 --> 02:42.053\n有媒體那麼多次講說只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核但是你們沒有去澄清說不僅僅只有在國安會有特殊查核你們在外交部之前也有經過查核的這個該做的一般查核那這個新聞已經兩三天都在講好像說只有一次\n\n02:43.214 --> 03:07.551\n沒有嘛你們其實有有完整的把該做的這些項目你們有完整的去做嗎你們也有把一般查核的部分把該員也有做一般查核我們這樣講對不對這個機會要跟媒體要澄清一下是我們那個一定對於這個外界來做這個我們事實上在這個這個核心的前任之役一等之役的這個案子發生之後我們也有在內部透過政風調查那麼做過查核那麼相關的內容我們也會\n\n03:12.154 --> 03:34.605\n這個交給這個檢調機關那麼進行以利後續的這個辦案謝謝喔因為我還是強調因為不管是這個特殊查核大概是1154個職位是要做特殊查核那主要是偏用於機要或者是這個主任秘書一級單位的主管等等那可能就是偏向的是公務人員是\n\n03:35.225 --> 03:52.435\n但是在約聘僱人員或者是說政務任命的就沒有那麼多我還是要強調說這個也是要檢討的範圍嘛因為我們都知道說該人員核心助理對他是約聘僱但是他接觸到的是什麼\n\n03:53.516 --> 04:11.711\n包含行程等等全部都有接觸到那這麼重要的一個人物你用最簡單的方式一般查核是這是對的嗎那麼委員質詢的這個方向原本是我們未來改進精進的一個方向我們也希望就是說我希望外交部\n\n04:12.672 --> 04:27.252\n能夠內部重新檢討過一次就昨天我有跟那個部長我們有在質詢前幾天有在質詢的時候就有提到啊不可以說就直接把這個東西調給法務部是你們決定這一個人的重要性是\n\n04:29.829 --> 04:52.207\n你怎麼會用這樣的方式剛才我說的我們會跟國防部互動交流根據按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考之後精進檢討就是說不是以人的職位或者是職等而是以它揭秘的程度來作為好不好跟國防部學習一下因為我質詢顧部長從去年就質詢到現在\n\n04:55.470 --> 05:18.285\n慢慢的都有在調整那甚至是在決定該員的揭密層級的時候部長在上次有提到啊就是說以後不是只有主觀來去決定啊美方有一個完整的檢討機制啊此人可能接觸到的密等不是有主觀一個人比方說官會諮詢委員那我就把你當成是一般就好了還甚至是沒有揭密\n\n05:19.600 --> 05:47.869\n這都要檢討的而且是現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難這個美國中國之間的這樣的狀況之下我們希望你們內部先檢討一下是那麼感謝委員的催訓我們這個之後一定來這個相關的來檢討我來問一下是這個在合圓也好啦或者是無緣也好沒關係我們就先從外交部的部分來講是在這個在被發現之前有沒有任何內部的這個通報\n\n05:50.168 --> 06:14.865\n有沒有任何他的同事來去做最近他的作為什麼的據我們的了解是說沒有看得到的為異常狀況所以沒有人通報嘛對不對沒有異常的通報對不對假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團個人來去接觸的話會不會有異常通報異常通報負責的單位是誰\n\n06:18.988 --> 06:23.254\n振峰振峰為異常狀況的話我來講一下我現在手上的是這個DC\n\n06:29.977 --> 06:48.953\nSA反情報手冊是由美國反情報安全局他們做的這個手冊這手冊的目的是什麼我們不要事後再來去捕破網我們事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候就必須要在第一時間來去回報\n\n06:51.155 --> 07:06.066\n外交部要被回報的機構是什麼?是政風處嗎?就是如果有異常行為的話就會外交部我們大概是整合政風跟地域跟各個區域的私處來做相關的規範\n\n07:08.188 --> 07:32.115\n我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來就是說他們有一個標準的做法我們現在做的不僅僅是在事後的調查我們要事前的反情報而且這不需要跨部會去做那包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼外國機構會用比如說你喜歡被認同啊所以會故意去問你一些這個跟你專業相關的問題啊讓你去講想些你的博學啊你會禮貌\n\n07:33.155 --> 07:47.327\n甚至出外他們會透過外交單位來去跟你來接觸啊或者是透過這些智庫單位來去跟你去接觸啊或者是在第三地來去跟你去接觸啊那你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性你們低估這個職位的重要性啊\n\n07:48.668 --> 08:12.010\n這些都是有可能的所以說未來通報必須要有義務的就是說外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當或者是授權不當的要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊來提供的時候你就必須要有這個機制所以外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習把這樣子的回報機制把它講出來在遇到這樣的時間點第一時間你必須要怎麼樣回報給部內是\n\n08:13.571 --> 08:41.482\n所以我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查了而是事前的反情報內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在那其實調查這麼久了部內一無所知沒有做相關的防範的話也是不行的其實今天要講的很多啦還有包含在最後一點我國的這些外交人員如果他去到第三國就是非中國以外的第三國我們講說是非\n\n08:43.393 --> 09:10.847\n歐盟跟美國以外他的通訊設備他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備可以出國嗎還是要全面換新你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整啊比方說你到港澳負責兩岸的事務的官員或許還是會有去港澳的這個可能性那如果這些我現在講的不是外交部我想的是比方說如果是涉及港澳的官員或者是中港澳的官員那他所帶的通訊設備包括那手機平板全部都要統一配發新的啊\n\n09:11.912 --> 09:37.902\n外交部也是如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家是一回事但是如果是到非我建交的國家中國影響力大的國家你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討所以我們現在講的已經不是在事後再去追溯了我們現在講的是事前的防範反情報的一些方式麻煩一下外交部不能夠說這樣子推到說這個是調查局他可以做這個一般查核那我們已經把東西交給調查局了就跟你們無關了\n\n09:39.042 --> 10:00.376\n不可以這樣子做好不好當然我們會持續的來檢討精進喔那麼對於人員的考核那我想過去的時候採取入職之前的一個調查而且我覺得有點狀況我還就是說奇怪怎麼這幾個月他在講這件事情的時候這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次就只有國安會入職之前查核一次問題是你們也有查核這件事情竟然到現在才\n\n10:01.136 --> 10:25.865\n外交部有查核一次但是用一般的這個查核按照規定你也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核那這個特殊查核就是特殊查核你們有把你們的工作做好但是我要提到的是說人家媒體說你們沒有你這個時候第一時間也要反應我們現在不僅僅是國家安全的問題還有包含這些錯假亂訊息的這個第一時間的回覆都要做好謝謝\n\n10:28.914 --> 10:36.063\n謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來我們現在處理臨時提案共兩案請醫事人員宣讀\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.35,"end":28.553,"text":"市長陳委員好你好今天我剛剛看到我們的這個報告那在第二頁現行做法的部分請參閱一下在現行做法的部分有提到說涉及重大利益的職務要辦理特殊查核"},{"start":29.639,"end":52.971,"text":"那在外領人員跟約聘僱人員在禁用前要均辦理一般查核是昨天在調查局的這個好像局長他在回應其他人的質詢的時候似乎有提到說這個何信這個助理他過去有辦理過一次特殊查核是在進國安會之前那在外交部時有沒有辦理"},{"start":55.64,"end":70.616,"text":"他只有一般查核他的是用知意來聘僱的所以他是視同聘聘所以想請教一下所以像媒體所報導的他只有經過一次查核是對的還是錯的他在國安會之前有進行過特殊查核"},{"start":70.936,"end":87.092,"text":"但是到了外交部是一個一般查核所以他有經歷過一般查核那為什麼一般查核的時候沒有發現問題是不是我們一般查核的部分是不是有沒有外交部部內有沒有談論到未來一般查核的內容部分是不是要經過一些調整"},{"start":88.293,"end":116.978,"text":"因為一般 報告委員一般查核的這個內容跟他的這個查的深度那麼是由調查局來做這個規範的那麼我們就是按照現在的這個公務人員這個服務法公務員服務法跟公務人員任用法這兩條的規定然後把它按照他所聘任的職位那麼送去這個分別進行這個特殊查核和一般查核"},{"start":117.278,"end":142.204,"text":"我先回應一下第一個這樣子的說法我想就表示說我們今天的這個會議裡面說要考核管制的具體做法你就等於是把它直接就交給去這個調查局你沒有在做內部的檢討說為什麼有經過查核之後那還是有發現這樣的問題嗎我們要的是跨部會的檢討而不是就是那就交給調查局然後第二點我也蠻驚訝就是說"},{"start":143.504,"end":162.053,"text":"有媒體那麼多次講說只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核但是你們沒有去澄清說不僅僅只有在國安會有特殊查核你們在外交部之前也有經過查核的這個該做的一般查核那這個新聞已經兩三天都在講好像說只有一次"},{"start":163.214,"end":187.551,"text":"沒有嘛你們其實有有完整的把該做的這些項目你們有完整的去做嗎你們也有把一般查核的部分把該員也有做一般查核我們這樣講對不對這個機會要跟媒體要澄清一下是我們那個一定對於這個外界來做這個我們事實上在這個這個核心的前任之役一等之役的這個案子發生之後我們也有在內部透過政風調查那麼做過查核那麼相關的內容我們也會"},{"start":192.154,"end":214.605,"text":"這個交給這個檢調機關那麼進行以利後續的這個辦案謝謝喔因為我還是強調因為不管是這個特殊查核大概是1154個職位是要做特殊查核那主要是偏用於機要或者是這個主任秘書一級單位的主管等等那可能就是偏向的是公務人員是"},{"start":215.225,"end":232.435,"text":"但是在約聘僱人員或者是說政務任命的就沒有那麼多我還是要強調說這個也是要檢討的範圍嘛因為我們都知道說該人員核心助理對他是約聘僱但是他接觸到的是什麼"},{"start":233.516,"end":251.711,"text":"包含行程等等全部都有接觸到那這麼重要的一個人物你用最簡單的方式一般查核是這是對的嗎那麼委員質詢的這個方向原本是我們未來改進精進的一個方向我們也希望就是說我希望外交部"},{"start":252.672,"end":267.252,"text":"能夠內部重新檢討過一次就昨天我有跟那個部長我們有在質詢前幾天有在質詢的時候就有提到啊不可以說就直接把這個東西調給法務部是你們決定這一個人的重要性是"},{"start":269.829,"end":292.207,"text":"你怎麼會用這樣的方式剛才我說的我們會跟國防部互動交流根據按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考之後精進檢討就是說不是以人的職位或者是職等而是以它揭秘的程度來作為好不好跟國防部學習一下因為我質詢顧部長從去年就質詢到現在"},{"start":295.47,"end":318.285,"text":"慢慢的都有在調整那甚至是在決定該員的揭密層級的時候部長在上次有提到啊就是說以後不是只有主觀來去決定啊美方有一個完整的檢討機制啊此人可能接觸到的密等不是有主觀一個人比方說官會諮詢委員那我就把你當成是一般就好了還甚至是沒有揭密"},{"start":319.6,"end":347.869,"text":"這都要檢討的而且是現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難這個美國中國之間的這樣的狀況之下我們希望你們內部先檢討一下是那麼感謝委員的催訓我們這個之後一定來這個相關的來檢討我來問一下是這個在合圓也好啦或者是無緣也好沒關係我們就先從外交部的部分來講是在這個在被發現之前有沒有任何內部的這個通報"},{"start":350.168,"end":374.865,"text":"有沒有任何他的同事來去做最近他的作為什麼的據我們的了解是說沒有看得到的為異常狀況所以沒有人通報嘛對不對沒有異常的通報對不對假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團個人來去接觸的話會不會有異常通報異常通報負責的單位是誰"},{"start":378.988,"end":383.254,"text":"振峰振峰為異常狀況的話我來講一下我現在手上的是這個DC"},{"start":389.977,"end":408.953,"text":"SA反情報手冊是由美國反情報安全局他們做的這個手冊這手冊的目的是什麼我們不要事後再來去捕破網我們事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候就必須要在第一時間來去回報"},{"start":411.155,"end":426.066,"text":"外交部要被回報的機構是什麼?是政風處嗎?就是如果有異常行為的話就會外交部我們大概是整合政風跟地域跟各個區域的私處來做相關的規範"},{"start":428.188,"end":452.115,"text":"我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來就是說他們有一個標準的做法我們現在做的不僅僅是在事後的調查我們要事前的反情報而且這不需要跨部會去做那包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼外國機構會用比如說你喜歡被認同啊所以會故意去問你一些這個跟你專業相關的問題啊讓你去講想些你的博學啊你會禮貌"},{"start":453.155,"end":467.327,"text":"甚至出外他們會透過外交單位來去跟你來接觸啊或者是透過這些智庫單位來去跟你去接觸啊或者是在第三地來去跟你去接觸啊那你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性你們低估這個職位的重要性啊"},{"start":468.668,"end":492.01,"text":"這些都是有可能的所以說未來通報必須要有義務的就是說外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當或者是授權不當的要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊來提供的時候你就必須要有這個機制所以外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習把這樣子的回報機制把它講出來在遇到這樣的時間點第一時間你必須要怎麼樣回報給部內是"},{"start":493.571,"end":521.482,"text":"所以我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查了而是事前的反情報內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在那其實調查這麼久了部內一無所知沒有做相關的防範的話也是不行的其實今天要講的很多啦還有包含在最後一點我國的這些外交人員如果他去到第三國就是非中國以外的第三國我們講說是非"},{"start":523.393,"end":550.847,"text":"歐盟跟美國以外他的通訊設備他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備可以出國嗎還是要全面換新你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整啊比方說你到港澳負責兩岸的事務的官員或許還是會有去港澳的這個可能性那如果這些我現在講的不是外交部我想的是比方說如果是涉及港澳的官員或者是中港澳的官員那他所帶的通訊設備包括那手機平板全部都要統一配發新的啊"},{"start":551.912,"end":577.902,"text":"外交部也是如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家是一回事但是如果是到非我建交的國家中國影響力大的國家你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討所以我們現在講的已經不是在事後再去追溯了我們現在講的是事前的防範反情報的一些方式麻煩一下外交部不能夠說這樣子推到說這個是調查局他可以做這個一般查核那我們已經把東西交給調查局了就跟你們無關了"},{"start":579.042,"end":600.376,"text":"不可以這樣子做好不好當然我們會持續的來檢討精進喔那麼對於人員的考核那我想過去的時候採取入職之前的一個調查而且我覺得有點狀況我還就是說奇怪怎麼這幾個月他在講這件事情的時候這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次就只有國安會入職之前查核一次問題是你們也有查核這件事情竟然到現在才"},{"start":601.136,"end":625.865,"text":"外交部有查核一次但是用一般的這個查核按照規定你也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核那這個特殊查核就是特殊查核你們有把你們的工作做好但是我要提到的是說人家媒體說你們沒有你這個時候第一時間也要反應我們現在不僅僅是國家安全的問題還有包含這些錯假亂訊息的這個第一時間的回覆都要做好 謝謝"},{"start":628.914,"end":636.063,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來我們現在處理臨時提案共兩案請醫事人員宣讀"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時56分）我們請外交部次長。"],["陳次長明祺：陳委員好！"],["陳委員冠廷：你好！我剛剛看到你們這個報告，在第2頁現行作法的部分，請參閱一下，有提到涉及重大利益的職務要辦理特殊查核，外領人員及約聘僱人員在進用前均辦理一般查核……"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：昨天調查局局長在回應其他人質詢的時候似乎有提到，這個何姓助理過去有辦理過一次特殊查核，是在進國安會之前，在外交部時，有沒有辦理？"],["陳次長明祺：他只有一般查核，他是用諮議來聘僱的，所以是視同聘僱人員。"],["陳委員冠廷：想請教一下，所以現在媒體所報導的，他只有經過一次查核是對的，還是錯的？"],["陳次長明祺：他在國安會之前有進行過特殊查核，但是到了外交部是一般查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以他有經歷過一般查核？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：那為什麼一般查核的時候沒有發現問題？外交部部內有沒有談論到未來一般查核的內容是不是要經過一些調整？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，一般查核的內容及查核的深度是由調查局來做規範的，我們就是按照現在的公務員服務法及公務人員任用法這兩部法的規定，按照他所聘任的職位，送去分別進行特殊查核和一般查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：我先回應一下。第一個、我們今天這個會議裡面是要報告考核管制的具體作法，你這樣的說法就等於是把他直接交給調查局，你沒有在做內部檢討，為什麼經過查核之後，還是發生這樣的問題？我們要的是跨部會的檢討，而不是就交給調查局；第二點、我也蠻驚訝的，有媒體那麼多次講他只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核，但是你們沒有去澄清，說他不僅僅只有在國安會之前有特殊查核，在外交部之前你們也有做該做的一般查核……"],["陳次長明祺：一般查核，是。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個新聞都已經講兩、三天，好像說只有一次。沒有嘛！你們其實有把該做的這些項目完整去做，你們對該員也有做一般查核，我們這樣講，對不對？藉這個機會，要跟媒體澄清一下。"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們一定對外界來做澄清。事實上，在這個何姓前任一等諮議的案子發生之後，我們也有在內部透過政風調查，做過查核，相關的內容我們也會交給檢調機關，以利後續的辦案。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。我還是強調，因為大概只有1,154個職位要做特殊查核，而且主要偏用於機要，或者是主任秘書、一級單位主管等等的，就是偏向公務人員……"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是在約聘僱人員或者是政務任命的，就沒有那麼多，我還是要強調，這個也是要檢討的範圍，因為我們都知道該何姓助理是約聘僱，但是他接觸到的是什麼？包含行程等等全部都有接觸到，這麼重要的一個人物，你們卻用最簡單的方式一般查核，這是對的嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：委員質詢的這個方向也是我們未來改進、精進的方向，我們也希望……"],["陳委員冠廷：我希望外交部……"],["陳次長明祺：我們也會建議……"],["陳委員冠廷：自己內部……"],["陳次長明祺：這個我們自己會。"],["陳委員冠廷：重新檢討過一次，我跟部長前幾天在質詢的時候就有提到，你們不可以就直接把這個東西丟給法務部，是你們決定這一個人的重要性。"],["陳次長明祺：是，所以我們……"],["陳委員冠廷：對啊！你們怎麼會用這樣的方式呢？"],["陳次長明祺：就如剛才我說的，我們會跟國防部互動交流，按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考，之後精進檢討，也就是不是以人的職位或者是職等，而是以他接密的程度來作為……"],["陳委員冠廷：好不好？跟國防部學習一下。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為我質詢顧部長，從去年就質詢到現在，慢慢的都有在調整，甚至是在決定該員接密層級的時候，部長在上次有提到，以後不是只由主官來決定，美方有一個完整的檢討機制，此人可能接觸到的密等不是由主官一個人決定，比方國安會諮詢委員就把他當成是一般就好了，還甚至是沒有接密，這都要檢討的……"],["陳次長明祺：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：而且現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難，在美國、中國這樣的狀況之下，我們希望你們內部先檢討一下。"],["陳次長明祺：是，感謝委員的垂詢，我們之後一定朝相關的方向來檢討。"],["陳委員冠廷：我來問一下，何員也好或者是吳員也好，沒關係，我們就先從外交部的部分來講，在被發現之前，有沒有任何內部的通報？有沒有任何他的同事來反映最近他的作為做了什麼？"],["陳次長明祺：據我們的了解，沒有看得到的為異常狀況。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以沒有人通報，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有人通報。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有異常的通報，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有。"],["陳委員冠廷：假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團的個人來接觸的話，會不會有異常通報？異常通報的負責單位是誰？"],["陳次長明祺：政風，為異常狀況的話……"],["陳委員冠廷：我來講一下，我現在手上的是DCSA反情報手冊，是由美國反情報安全局所做的手冊，這手冊的目的是什麼？我們不要事後再來補破網，事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候，就必須要在第一時間去回報，外交部要被回報的機構是什麼？是政風處嘛！如果有異常行為的話，外交部第一個時間……"],["陳次長明祺：我們大概就整合政風跟各個區域的司處來做相關的規範。"],["陳委員冠廷：我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來？就是他們有一個標準的作法，我們現在做的不僅僅是事後的調查，還要有事前的反情報，而且這必須要跨部會去做，包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼，外國機構會用……比方你喜歡被認同，所以會故意去問你一些跟你專業相關的問題，讓你去展現你的博學，甚至他們會透過外交單位來跟你接觸，或者是透過這些智庫單位來跟你接觸，或者是在第三地跟你接觸，你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性、低估這個職位的重要性，這些都是有可能的。所以未來通報必須要有義務的，就是外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊做提供的時候，你就必須要有這個機制，因此外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習，把這樣子的回報機制講出來，在遇到事情的第一時間必須要怎麼樣回報給部內。我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查，而是事前的反情報，內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在，其實調查這麼久了，部內一無所知，沒有做相關防範的話，也是不行的。","其實今天要講的很多啦！還有包含最後一點，我國的這些外交人員，如果他們去到第三國，就是非中國以外的第三國，我們講的是非歐盟跟美國以外，關於他的通訊設備，他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備出國嗎？還是要全面換新？你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整，比方你到港澳負責兩岸事務的官員，或許還是會有去港澳的可能性，我現在講的不是外交部，我講的比方如果是涉及港澳的官員，或者是中港澳的官員，那他所帶的通訊設備包含手機、平板全部都要統一配發新的啊！"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：外交部也是，如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家，那是一回事，但是如果是到非我國建交的國家、中國影響力大的國家，你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討的。"],["陳次長明祺：當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們現在講的已經不是事後再去追溯，而是事前防範、反情報的一些方式。麻煩一下，外交部不能夠這樣子推到說這是調查局可以做一般查核，而你們已經把東西交給調查局就跟你們無關了，不可以這樣子做，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：當然，我們會持續來檢討、精進，那麼對於人員的考核，過去的時候是採取入職之前的一個調查，我想現在可能也不太夠。"],["陳委員冠廷：而且我覺得有點狀況外，就是奇怪，怎麼這幾個月大家在講這件事情的時候，這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次，就只有國安會入職之前查核一次，外交部也有查核這件事情，竟然到現在才……"],["陳次長明祺：外交部有查核一次，但是用一般的查核，至於剛才……"],["陳委員冠廷：可是按照規定，你們也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛！因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核、特殊查核就是特殊查核，你們有把你們的工作做好，但是我要提到的是，媒體說你們沒有，你們在第一時間也要反映……"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們要對外溝通。"],["陳委員冠廷：現在不僅僅只是國家安全的問題，還有包含這些錯假亂訊息第一時間的回復都要做。"],["陳次長明祺：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。","接下來處理臨時提案，共兩案，請議事人員宣讀第一案。","一、","案由：國軍肩負保衛國家使命，需投入長時間專注戰訓本務，還全天候待命救災勤務，可謂付出高密集、高工時之「高強度勞動行業」，為嘉勉其辛勞付出，福利本應從優厚給之；惟《國軍軍官士官請假規則》第三條第一項第六款卻規範「受訓期間於次年度慰勞假核給時，應按比例扣除」顯與常理相違背，侵害官兵休假權益。","相比勞工身份，主管指派外訓上課者，公司給與公假，係比照《勞工請假規則》第八條「勞工依法令規定應給予公假者，工資照給」以公假處理，另《公務人員訓練進修法施行細則》第十一條第一項明定「國內外全時進修者，應於進修期間給予公假」，足以顯示「受訓視同上班核給公假」為無爭議之普世價值，軍人為廣義公務員理應同等比照。","軍人身處高強度勞動行業未能確實放假減壓健全身心，國防部當以去（113）年上半年發生的自傷海嘯時刻警醒，刪除請假規則中「受訓」二字。","提案人：徐巧芯　　林憶君　　馬文君　　陳永康　　黃　仁"],["主席：請提案委員說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝主席。這個主要是我們基層的休假權益，其實在受訓的時候，一般來說，應該核給公假是大家沒有爭議、普遍的想法，可是軍人卻是在受訓之後還要去扣他的慰勞假，也就是等於我們一般講的特休假，這其實對於基層的官兵是非常不公平的，也沒有讓他們有足夠的權益。剛才跟國防部溝通之後，我們在文字上面有一些修正，大概就是在最後一段「軍人身處高強度勞動行業未能確實放假減壓健全身心，國防部當以去（113）年上半年發生的自傷海嘯時刻提醒」，然後後面改成「國防部應評估研擬修訂請假規則中第三條第六款及第七款，並於一個月內提出報告。」剛剛已經有跟國防部溝通過相關的文字，我本人也是同意的，謝謝。"],["主席：請國防部對於提案內容提出意見。"],["楊次長基榮：誠如委員所關切的，剛剛跟委員私底下報告過，就按照委員剛才所指導的事項來修正。"],["主席：請問在場的委員有無意見？本提案修正通過。","接下來請議事人員宣讀第二案。","二、","案由：政府為安定員工生活、激勵工作士氣，由行政院人事行政總處依《全國軍公教員工待遇支給要點》第七點辦理公務人員福利事項，其中全國公教員工房屋貸款「築巢優利貸」114年至116年期間由臺灣銀行承作，利息為2.185%；全國公教員工信用貸款「貼心相貸」113年至116年由土地銀行以利息2.205%計算辦理。","經查，國軍該福利事項業務係由國防部主計局辦理，承作方式略異於公教人員，提供五間銀行給官兵選擇，倘以同間銀行進行比較發現房貸部份臺灣銀行提供國軍利息為2.277%，略高於公教人員近0.1%；惟信用貸款部分各銀行利息均超過3%，公股土銀、臺銀卻高達3.764%，足足是公教人員1.7倍。","軍人為廣義之公務員，福利措施同等比照公教人員應為基本，福利應當從優厚給以彌補其繁重勤務之辛勞付出，國防部應即刻啟動與各銀行商議調降二種類貸款利息，以提振軍人社會地位及光榮使命感。","提案人：徐巧芯　　林憶君　　馬文君　　陳永康　　黃　仁"],["主席：請問提案委員需不需要說明？"],["徐委員巧芯：不需要，因為這個部分跟國防部溝通後沒有其他問題，先前也已經在質詢過程當中說明了。總之，既然它叫做國軍的專案，就應該有更優惠的相關利率，而不是比公務人員還來得低，這個是我們的期望。內容上面的話，剛才國防部來溝通，也沒有任何異議，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐巧芯委員。請問國防部對於這個提案的內容有無意見？"],["楊次長基榮：沒有意見，按照委員的提案。"],["主席：好，在場的委員有沒有意見？OK，本提案照案通過。","現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續詢答。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時18分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","接下來由楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}}