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\"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 52.889, \"end\": 53.089, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 53.089, \"end\": 53.369, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 53.369, \"end\": 53.609, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 53.609, \"end\": 53.789, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 53.789, \"end\": 54.109, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 54.109, \"end\": 54.93, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 54.93, \"end\": 55.37, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 55.37, \"end\": 55.47, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 55.47, \"end\": 55.73, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 55.73, \"end\": 56.19, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 56.19, \"end\": 56.35, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 56.35, \"end\": 56.57, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 56.57, \"end\": 57.11, 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71.232, \"end\": 97.712, \"text\": \"我們當然很擔憂我再一次強調站在這個立場上面中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯我覺得這個是我自始至終的一個立場跟態度台灣2320萬人是我們共同維護的價值所以我們當然要用力的來去把任何的間諜都給交出來國安局昨天有講說有六大的反制措施對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 71.232, \"end\": 71.633, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 71.633, \"end\": 71.713, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 71.713, \"end\": 72.273, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"憂\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 72.273, \"end\": 72.433, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 72.433, \"end\": 72.574, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 72.574, \"end\": 72.654, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 72.654, \"end\": 74.035, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 74.035, \"end\": 74.215, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 74.215, \"end\": 74.695, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", 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\"end\": 504.432, \"text\": \"報告我們還是依法行政當然是依法行政所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的要做就把落實就把這些事情給你要依照要修法要提出來我們共同來討論但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體我說我要特殊查那實際上根本你現在的法令就是你們做不到\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 482.123, \"end\": 482.243, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 482.243, \"end\": 482.663, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 482.663, \"end\": 482.743, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 482.743, \"end\": 482.883, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 482.883, \"end\": 483.084, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 483.084, \"end\": 483.344, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 483.344, \"end\": 483.724, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 483.724, \"end\": 483.864, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 483.864, \"end\": 484.104, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 484.104, \"end\": 484.224, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"法\", 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\"的\", \"start\": 651.031, \"end\": 651.291, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 651.291, \"end\": 651.452, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 651.452, \"end\": 651.612, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 651.612, \"end\": 651.832, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 651.832, \"end\": 652.032, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 652.032, \"end\": 652.352, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 652.352, \"end\": 652.452, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 652.452, \"end\": 652.472, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,546 --> 00:00:03,890\n主席謝謝麻煩請外交部次長跟國安局副局長\n\n2\n00:00:08,849 --> 00:00:33,820\n委員好市長好副局長我先請教一下副局長好不好副局長委員好這個媒體報導說前軍情局局長也曾經示警說現在有可能共諜在台灣有超過五千名以上這樣的一個數字因為據報導講說1999年推估約差不多兩千名那過去這段時間增加了變五千名以上\n\n3\n00:00:34,963 --> 00:00:58,411\n涵瓜可能政府單位涵瓜可能企業民間等等的這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽還是確有其事這個是他的一個推估不過我們的一個掌握了解是目前來講是沒有那麼多人沒那麼多人對我們實際上有受理的有情資的一個收報的部分是沒有這麼多人是\n\n4\n00:00:59,332 --> 00:01:09,998\n掌握沒有那麼多人是我以為你會講的是說更多人因為現在感覺好像每個地方民進黨政府上任之後很多部會等等的都被共諜深入啦\n\n5\n00:01:11,232 --> 00:01:37,712\n我們當然很擔憂我再一次強調站在這個立場上面中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯我覺得這個是我自始至終的一個立場跟態度台灣2320萬人是我們共同維護的價值所以我們當然要用力的來去把任何的間諜都給交出來國安局昨天有講說有六大的反制措施對不對\n\n6\n00:01:38,803 --> 00:01:53,141\n有嗎好副議長其實本期有看了一下六大反制措施啊國安局不是第一天成立所以其實這六大反制措施過去有沒有做有做但我覺得重點在於一件事情重點在哪邊你知道嗎\n\n7\n00:01:54,150 --> 00:02:15,271\n有沒有落實啊我們其實法令都有啊2019年的時候那時候民進黨國會多數過半一次要通過國安法也通過啦我們有法在那邊啊如果說真的有共諜有任何的這種違反國家安全機密的話抓起來辦嚴辦重辦不是讓他在那邊\n\n8\n00:02:16,513 --> 00:02:43,090\n可以把我們相關的資料給竊取出去但重點在於是有沒有落實所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分落實的部分其實剛剛很多委員都已經在講過所謂的特殊查核對不對我們來先請教一下因為這為什麼會請外交部也一起上台就是這個何仁傑這一位那他過去擔任過外交部的資義是不是\n\n9\n00:02:46,901 --> 00:03:02,470\n那他從什麼單位然後再到外交部之後又再離開他是不是擔任過好幾個政府不同的機關的部門的職務是那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面只有他出任公務人員的時候的一次一般性的查核\n\n10\n00:03:03,949 --> 00:03:19,610\n報告委員他在進到國安會之前他從之前在國安會那麼有進行過特殊查核還有進行過特殊查核嗎是因為媒體報導講說他只有2016年的也是一般查核\n\n11\n00:03:21,412 --> 00:03:37,064\n2016年那個是一個特殊查核他是來到國安會那麼到本部服務之前有進行按照我們的這個慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核新進人員一般查核但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核國安會在我們到進到本部之前\n\n12\n00:03:37,785 --> 00:04:03,322\n本部之前有特殊查核,但是進本部就只有一般查核是的,因為他的職位是一等之一好,那這樣子就凸顯兩個部分,就是他的工作其實大家就講,就是說他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的因為他等於就在部長身邊,或是說他經手很多公文是部長才能看到,但是他會經手\n\n13\n00:04:04,302 --> 00:04:15,961\n所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間對不對那未來我們現在在討論到是所謂的特殊查核應該要去做相關的增加人員的一個部分請教\n\n14\n00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:37,772\n不管是特殊查核或一般查核都是由調查局來進行據我的了解但是我現在講的是我們的公務人員任用法裡面包括第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核那相關的人員的名單不是有各機關這邊要提出來嗎\n\n15\n00:04:39,013 --> 00:04:55,571\n我們目前來說有96個人必須要進行特殊查核是不是像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到前天滋疫應該要接受特殊查核我們認同這樣的一個想法那什麼時候提出來\n\n16\n00:04:58,223 --> 00:05:27,444\n我們可以在布裡面可以用採取比較更高的標準雖然說現在在不是布裡面採取更高標準是法令就有明文規定了我現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條其中第二項涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核但是名單要由各機關提出來授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛那我現在要問的是既然外交部都已經講是說要做這個事情那何仁傑的這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧是\n\n17\n00:05:28,084 --> 00:05:39,957\n那到目前為止外交部的動作咧目前外交部的動作我們是透過我們內部的政風調查好那我想請教我們有沒有落實就是說我們既然有一個老鼠屎\n\n18\n00:05:41,007 --> 00:06:03,986\n我還是肯定我們外交同仁大家99%都很辛苦但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核然後來去做一個徹底的釐清所以至於我們這個部長在前天答覆委員的答覆我們這個委員會這邊說的一樣我們會對於相關的涉密人員進行特殊查核\n\n19\n00:06:05,007 --> 00:06:11,936\n你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據有法源依據你才能做特審查核啊所以什麼時候要提出人員名單\n\n20\n00:06:15,599 --> 00:06:41,699\n跟主席報告主席是這邊我是委員剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是那個特殊現在依照現在的法規規定特殊查核只能由公務人員身份的才可以那剛剛講到的核員他是用聘用人員所以目前的法規他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面那剛剛委員提到這個建議因為行政院現在正在\n\n21\n00:06:42,259 --> 00:06:59,552\n研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核可以更完備那我們可以把委員您的建議事實跟行政院反映讓這個譬如說未來可以特殊查核的那個人員的類別擴大那如果是這樣的話布裡面就會依照有涉及修法的部分對好感謝來次長是\n\n22\n00:07:02,512 --> 00:07:15,258\n在備詢台有一說一這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講我看到外交部部長講說應該要接受特殊查核很好啊結果有沒有修法有沒有動作\n\n23\n00:07:16,837 --> 00:07:35,135\n沒有看到然後特殊查核本來就有名單你要有法源於據你才能去做特殊查核名單會適時增加從一開始的名單到現在你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項這一個涉及國家安全跟重大利益它的名單與時俱進\n\n24\n00:07:37,117 --> 00:08:00,429\n那什麼時候你們再把各機關再把名單給報出來目前沒有看到案發已經兩個多月了沒有看到那現在又跟講我也看到就是說這是對於公務人員的部分那如果說他就不是公務人員他沒有適用的話你現在一直講說啊民粹的講我要用特殊查核特殊查核結果發覺法院根本不適用啊不是講爽的嗎\n\n25\n00:08:02,123 --> 00:08:24,432\n報告我們還是依法行政當然是依法行政所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的要做就把落實就把這些事情給你要依照要修法要提出來我們共同來討論但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體我說我要特殊查那實際上根本你現在的法令就是你們做不到\n\n26\n00:08:25,572 --> 00:08:42,360\n那是我們這個對修法的規劃的方向我們的部長跟院裡面行政院一起努力然後也請這個國安局副局長來副局長最後副局長我看到就是說因為他是各機關要提出來對\n\n27\n00:08:43,741 --> 00:08:59,764\n所以難免掛一漏萬是不是國安局要用更高的國安的視角來去通盤的檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核什麼樣的人員是一般查核\n\n28\n00:09:00,645 --> 00:09:16,894\n這個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出特殊查核的全管機關是福岡部是調查局來做特殊的一個查核那剛委員的一個建立部分我都理解調查局做查核現在我提的是說\n\n29\n00:09:17,654 --> 00:09:35,290\n每個機關報人名單出來給調查局做查核那個機關報嘛我們現在的問題就是在於是說之前就是沒有把資義列進去你沒有報出來資義它又不屬於公務人員那現在說外交部說要做通盤檢討行政院也說通盤檢討好那我現在問的是說各機關如果還是一樣各自為政你們自己機關去盤點說哪些人要送特殊查核哪些人要一般查核難免掛一路外\n\n30\n00:09:44,978 --> 00:10:13,792\n也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度你檢視我們國家哪些植物有可能他植物不夠高但是他金手機密多他也應該要列為特殊查核副議長這個我想一個特殊查核要有一個定義就是說以接觸機密的資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受那個透視的一個查核那沒錯剛剛委員的一個提議是沒錯但擔心說各機關報的話會掛一落萬那\n\n31\n00:10:14,872 --> 00:10:32,197\n這個部分我想我們可以結合其他部門通盤的一個檢討讓這些真的需要做特殊查核的人把他擬列出來做相關查核的工作副議長在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度\n\n32\n00:10:32,737 --> 00:10:52,472\n就是在於我剛剛講說國安局列出六大項其實這六大項各位同仁都很清楚你們有沒有做有做沒有落實所以現在要落實兩個字執行到位才能夠真真正正的防止相關的滲透否則的話都是作假的以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n546\t3890\t主席謝謝麻煩請外交部次長跟國安局副局長\n8849\t33820\t委員好 市長好 副局長我先請教一下副局長好不好副局長 委員好這個媒體報導說前軍情局局長也曾經示警說現在有可能共諜在台灣有超過五千名以上這樣的一個數字因為據報導講說1999年推估約差不多兩千名那過去這段時間增加了變五千名以上\n34963\t58411\t涵瓜可能政府單位涵瓜可能企業民間等等的這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽還是確有其事這個是他的一個推估不過我們的一個掌握了解是目前來講是沒有那麼多人沒那麼多人對我們實際上有受理的有情資的一個收報的部分是沒有這麼多人是\n59332\t69998\t掌握沒有那麼多人是我以為你會講的是說更多人因為現在感覺好像每個地方民進黨政府上任之後很多部會等等的都被共諜深入啦\n71232\t97712\t我們當然很擔憂我再一次強調站在這個立場上面中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯我覺得這個是我自始至終的一個立場跟態度台灣2320萬人是我們共同維護的價值所以我們當然要用力的來去把任何的間諜都給交出來國安局昨天有講說有六大的反制措施對不對\n98803\t113141\t有嗎好副議長其實本期有看了一下六大反制措施啊國安局不是第一天成立所以其實這六大反制措施過去有沒有做有做但我覺得重點在於一件事情重點在哪邊你知道嗎\n114150\t135271\t有沒有落實啊我們其實法令都有啊2019年的時候那時候民進黨國會多數過半一次要通過國安法也通過啦我們有法在那邊啊如果說真的有共諜有任何的這種違反國家安全機密的話抓起來辦嚴辦重辦不是讓他在那邊\n136513\t163090\t可以把我們相關的資料給竊取出去但重點在於是有沒有落實所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分落實的部分其實剛剛很多委員都已經在講過所謂的特殊查核對不對我們來先請教一下因為這為什麼會請外交部也一起上台就是這個何仁傑這一位那他過去擔任過外交部的資義是不是\n166901\t182470\t那他從什麼單位然後再到外交部之後又再離開他是不是擔任過好幾個政府不同的機關的部門的職務是那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面只有他出任公務人員的時候的一次一般性的查核\n183949\t199610\t報告委員他在進到國安會之前他從之前在國安會那麼有進行過特殊查核還有進行過特殊查核嗎是因為媒體報導講說他只有2016年的也是一般查核\n201412\t217064\t2016年那個是一個特殊查核他是來到國安會那麼到本部服務之前有進行按照我們的這個慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核新進人員一般查核但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核國安會在我們到進到本部之前\n217785\t243322\t本部之前有特殊查核,但是進本部就只有一般查核是的,因為他的職位是一等之一好,那這樣子就凸顯兩個部分,就是他的工作其實大家就講,就是說他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的因為他等於就在部長身邊,或是說他經手很多公文是部長才能看到,但是他會經手\n244302\t255961\t所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間對不對那未來我們現在在討論到是所謂的特殊查核應該要去做相關的增加人員的一個部分請教\n258550\t277772\t不管是特殊查核或一般查核都是由調查局來進行據我的了解但是我現在講的是我們的公務人員任用法裡面包括第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核那相關的人員的名單不是有各機關這邊要提出來嗎\n279013\t295571\t我們目前來說有96個人必須要進行特殊查核是不是像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到前天滋疫應該要接受特殊查核我們認同這樣的一個想法那什麼時候提出來\n298223\t327444\t我們可以在布裡面可以用採取比較更高的標準雖然說現在在不是布裡面採取更高標準是法令就有明文規定了我現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條其中第二項涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核但是名單要由各機關提出來授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛那我現在要問的是既然外交部都已經講是說要做這個事情那何仁傑的這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧是\n328084\t339957\t那到目前為止外交部的動作咧目前外交部的動作我們是透過我們內部的政風調查好 那我想請教我們有沒有落實就是說我們既然有一個老鼠屎\n341007\t363986\t我還是肯定我們外交同仁大家99%都很辛苦但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核然後來去做一個徹底的釐清所以至於我們這個部長在前天答覆委員的答覆我們這個委員會這邊說的一樣我們會對於相關的涉密人員進行特殊查核\n365007\t371936\t你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據有法源依據你才能做特審查核啊所以什麼時候要提出人員名單\n375599\t401699\t跟主席報告主席是這邊我是委員剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是那個特殊現在依照現在的法規規定特殊查核只能由公務人員身份的才可以那剛剛講到的核員他是用聘用人員所以目前的法規他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面那剛剛委員提到這個建議因為行政院現在正在\n402259\t419552\t研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核可以更完備那我們可以把委員您的建議事實跟行政院反映讓這個譬如說未來可以特殊查核的那個人員的類別擴大那如果是這樣的話布裡面就會依照有涉及修法的部分對好 感謝來 次長是\n422512\t435258\t在備詢台有一說一這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講我看到外交部部長講說應該要接受特殊查核很好啊結果有沒有修法有沒有動作\n436837\t455135\t沒有看到然後特殊查核本來就有名單你要有法源於據你才能去做特殊查核名單會適時增加從一開始的名單到現在你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項這一個涉及國家安全跟重大利益它的名單與時俱進\n457117\t480429\t那什麼時候你們再把各機關再把名單給報出來目前沒有看到案發已經兩個多月了沒有看到那現在又跟講我也看到就是說這是對於公務人員的部分那如果說他就不是公務人員他沒有適用的話你現在一直講說啊民粹的講我要用特殊查核特殊查核結果發覺法院根本不適用啊不是講爽的嗎\n482123\t504432\t報告我們還是依法行政當然是依法行政所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的要做就把落實就把這些事情給你要依照要修法要提出來我們共同來討論但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體我說我要特殊查那實際上根本你現在的法令就是你們做不到\n505572\t522360\t那是我們這個對修法的規劃的方向我們的部長跟院裡面行政院一起努力然後也請這個國安局副局長來副局長最後副局長我看到就是說因為他是各機關要提出來對\n523741\t539764\t所以難免掛一漏萬是不是國安局要用更高的國安的視角來去通盤的檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核什麼樣的人員是一般查核\n540645\t556894\t這個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出特殊查核的全管機關是福岡部是調查局來做特殊的一個查核那剛委員的一個建立部分我都理解調查局做查核現在我提的是說\n557654\t575290\t每個機關報人名單出來給調查局做查核 那個機關報嘛我們現在的問題就是在於是說之前就是沒有把資義列進去 你沒有報出來資義它又不屬於公務人員 那現在說外交部說要做通盤檢討 行政院也說通盤檢討好 那我現在問的是說各機關如果還是一樣各自為政 你們自己機關去盤點說哪些人要送特殊查核 哪些人要一般查核 難免掛一路外\n584978\t613792\t也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度你檢視我們國家哪些植物有可能他植物不夠高但是他金手機密多他也應該要列為特殊查核副議長這個我想一個特殊查核要有一個定義就是說以接觸機密的資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受那個透視的一個查核那沒錯剛剛委員的一個提議是沒錯但擔心說各機關報的話會掛一落萬那\n614872\t632197\t這個部分我想我們可以結合其他部門通盤的一個檢討讓這些真的需要做特殊查核的人把他擬列出來做相關查核的工作副議長在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度\n632737\t652472\t就是在於我剛剛講說 國安局列出六大項其實這六大項 各位同仁都很清楚你們有沒有做 有做 沒有落實所以現在要落實 兩個字執行到位 才能夠真真正正的防止相關的滲透否則的話都是作假的 以上 謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請外交部次長跟國安局副局長\n委員好 市長好 副局長我先請教一下副局長好不好副局長 委員好這個媒體報導說前軍情局局長也曾經示警說現在有可能共諜在台灣有超過五千名以上這樣的一個數字因為據報導講說1999年推估約差不多兩千名那過去這段時間增加了變五千名以上\n涵瓜可能政府單位涵瓜可能企業民間等等的這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽還是確有其事這個是他的一個推估不過我們的一個掌握了解是目前來講是沒有那麼多人沒那麼多人對我們實際上有受理的有情資的一個收報的部分是沒有這麼多人是\n掌握沒有那麼多人是我以為你會講的是說更多人因為現在感覺好像每個地方民進黨政府上任之後很多部會等等的都被共諜深入啦\n我們當然很擔憂我再一次強調站在這個立場上面中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯我覺得這個是我自始至終的一個立場跟態度台灣2320萬人是我們共同維護的價值所以我們當然要用力的來去把任何的間諜都給交出來國安局昨天有講說有六大的反制措施對不對\n有嗎好副議長其實本期有看了一下六大反制措施啊國安局不是第一天成立所以其實這六大反制措施過去有沒有做有做但我覺得重點在於一件事情重點在哪邊你知道嗎\n有沒有落實啊我們其實法令都有啊2019年的時候那時候民進黨國會多數過半一次要通過國安法也通過啦我們有法在那邊啊如果說真的有共諜有任何的這種違反國家安全機密的話抓起來辦嚴辦重辦不是讓他在那邊\n可以把我們相關的資料給竊取出去但重點在於是有沒有落實所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分落實的部分其實剛剛很多委員都已經在講過所謂的特殊查核對不對我們來先請教一下因為這為什麼會請外交部也一起上台就是這個何仁傑這一位那他過去擔任過外交部的資義是不是\n那他從什麼單位然後再到外交部之後又再離開他是不是擔任過好幾個政府不同的機關的部門的職務是那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面只有他出任公務人員的時候的一次一般性的查核\n報告委員他在進到國安會之前他從之前在國安會那麼有進行過特殊查核還有進行過特殊查核嗎是因為媒體報導講說他只有2016年的也是一般查核\n2016年那個是一個特殊查核他是來到國安會那麼到本部服務之前有進行按照我們的這個慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核新進人員一般查核但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核國安會在我們到進到本部之前\n本部之前有特殊查核,但是進本部就只有一般查核是的,因為他的職位是一等之一好,那這樣子就凸顯兩個部分,就是他的工作其實大家就講,就是說他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的因為他等於就在部長身邊,或是說他經手很多公文是部長才能看到,但是他會經手\n所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間對不對那未來我們現在在討論到是所謂的特殊查核應該要去做相關的增加人員的一個部分請教\n不管是特殊查核或一般查核都是由調查局來進行據我的了解但是我現在講的是我們的公務人員任用法裡面包括第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核那相關的人員的名單不是有各機關這邊要提出來嗎\n我們目前來說有96個人必須要進行特殊查核是不是像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到前天滋疫應該要接受特殊查核我們認同這樣的一個想法那什麼時候提出來\n我們可以在布裡面可以用採取比較更高的標準雖然說現在在不是布裡面採取更高標準是法令就有明文規定了我現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條其中第二項涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核但是名單要由各機關提出來授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛那我現在要問的是既然外交部都已經講是說要做這個事情那何仁傑的這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧是\n那到目前為止外交部的動作咧目前外交部的動作我們是透過我們內部的政風調查好 那我想請教我們有沒有落實就是說我們既然有一個老鼠屎\n我還是肯定我們外交同仁大家99%都很辛苦但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核然後來去做一個徹底的釐清所以至於我們這個部長在前天答覆委員的答覆我們這個委員會這邊說的一樣我們會對於相關的涉密人員進行特殊查核\n你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據有法源依據你才能做特審查核啊所以什麼時候要提出人員名單\n跟主席報告主席是這邊我是委員剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是那個特殊現在依照現在的法規規定特殊查核只能由公務人員身份的才可以那剛剛講到的核員他是用聘用人員所以目前的法規他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面那剛剛委員提到這個建議因為行政院現在正在\n研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核可以更完備那我們可以把委員您的建議事實跟行政院反映讓這個譬如說未來可以特殊查核的那個人員的類別擴大那如果是這樣的話布裡面就會依照有涉及修法的部分對好 感謝來 次長是\n在備詢台有一說一這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講我看到外交部部長講說應該要接受特殊查核很好啊結果有沒有修法有沒有動作\n沒有看到然後特殊查核本來就有名單你要有法源於據你才能去做特殊查核名單會適時增加從一開始的名單到現在你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項這一個涉及國家安全跟重大利益它的名單與時俱進\n那什麼時候你們再把各機關再把名單給報出來目前沒有看到案發已經兩個多月了沒有看到那現在又跟講我也看到就是說這是對於公務人員的部分那如果說他就不是公務人員他沒有適用的話你現在一直講說啊民粹的講我要用特殊查核特殊查核結果發覺法院根本不適用啊不是講爽的嗎\n報告我們還是依法行政當然是依法行政所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的要做就把落實就把這些事情給你要依照要修法要提出來我們共同來討論但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體我說我要特殊查那實際上根本你現在的法令就是你們做不到\n那是我們這個對修法的規劃的方向我們的部長跟院裡面行政院一起努力然後也請這個國安局副局長來副局長最後副局長我看到就是說因為他是各機關要提出來對\n所以難免掛一漏萬是不是國安局要用更高的國安的視角來去通盤的檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核什麼樣的人員是一般查核\n這個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出特殊查核的全管機關是福岡部是調查局來做特殊的一個查核那剛委員的一個建立部分我都理解調查局做查核現在我提的是說\n每個機關報人名單出來給調查局做查核 那個機關報嘛我們現在的問題就是在於是說之前就是沒有把資義列進去 你沒有報出來資義它又不屬於公務人員 那現在說外交部說要做通盤檢討 行政院也說通盤檢討好 那我現在問的是說各機關如果還是一樣各自為政 你們自己機關去盤點說哪些人要送特殊查核 哪些人要一般查核 難免掛一路外\n也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度你檢視我們國家哪些植物有可能他植物不夠高但是他金手機密多他也應該要列為特殊查核副議長這個我想一個特殊查核要有一個定義就是說以接觸機密的資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受那個透視的一個查核那沒錯剛剛委員的一個提議是沒錯但擔心說各機關報的話會掛一落萬那\n這個部分我想我們可以結合其他部門通盤的一個檢討讓這些真的需要做特殊查核的人把他擬列出來做相關查核的工作副議長在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度\n就是在於我剛剛講說 國安局列出六大項其實這六大項 各位同仁都很清楚你們有沒有做 有做 沒有落實所以現在要落實 兩個字執行到位 才能夠真真正正的防止相關的滲透否則的話都是作假的 以上 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.546 --> 00:03.890\n主席謝謝麻煩請外交部次長跟國安局副局長\n\n00:08.849 --> 00:33.820\n委員好市長好副局長我先請教一下副局長好不好副局長委員好這個媒體報導說前軍情局局長也曾經示警說現在有可能共諜在台灣有超過五千名以上這樣的一個數字因為據報導講說1999年推估約差不多兩千名那過去這段時間增加了變五千名以上\n\n00:34.963 --> 00:58.411\n涵瓜可能政府單位涵瓜可能企業民間等等的這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽還是確有其事這個是他的一個推估不過我們的一個掌握了解是目前來講是沒有那麼多人沒那麼多人對我們實際上有受理的有情資的一個收報的部分是沒有這麼多人是\n\n00:59.332 --> 01:09.998\n掌握沒有那麼多人是我以為你會講的是說更多人因為現在感覺好像每個地方民進黨政府上任之後很多部會等等的都被共諜深入啦\n\n01:11.232 --> 01:37.712\n我們當然很擔憂我再一次強調站在這個立場上面中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯我覺得這個是我自始至終的一個立場跟態度台灣2320萬人是我們共同維護的價值所以我們當然要用力的來去把任何的間諜都給交出來國安局昨天有講說有六大的反制措施對不對\n\n01:38.803 --> 01:53.141\n有嗎好副議長其實本期有看了一下六大反制措施啊國安局不是第一天成立所以其實這六大反制措施過去有沒有做有做但我覺得重點在於一件事情重點在哪邊你知道嗎\n\n01:54.150 --> 02:15.271\n有沒有落實啊我們其實法令都有啊2019年的時候那時候民進黨國會多數過半一次要通過國安法也通過啦我們有法在那邊啊如果說真的有共諜有任何的這種違反國家安全機密的話抓起來辦嚴辦重辦不是讓他在那邊\n\n02:16.513 --> 02:43.090\n可以把我們相關的資料給竊取出去但重點在於是有沒有落實所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分落實的部分其實剛剛很多委員都已經在講過所謂的特殊查核對不對我們來先請教一下因為這為什麼會請外交部也一起上台就是這個何仁傑這一位那他過去擔任過外交部的資義是不是\n\n02:46.901 --> 03:02.470\n那他從什麼單位然後再到外交部之後又再離開他是不是擔任過好幾個政府不同的機關的部門的職務是那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面只有他出任公務人員的時候的一次一般性的查核\n\n03:03.949 --> 03:19.610\n報告委員他在進到國安會之前他從之前在國安會那麼有進行過特殊查核還有進行過特殊查核嗎是因為媒體報導講說他只有2016年的也是一般查核\n\n03:21.412 --> 03:37.064\n2016年那個是一個特殊查核他是來到國安會那麼到本部服務之前有進行按照我們的這個慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核新進人員一般查核但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核國安會在我們到進到本部之前\n\n03:37.785 --> 04:03.322\n本部之前有特殊查核,但是進本部就只有一般查核是的,因為他的職位是一等之一好,那這樣子就凸顯兩個部分,就是他的工作其實大家就講,就是說他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的因為他等於就在部長身邊,或是說他經手很多公文是部長才能看到,但是他會經手\n\n04:04.302 --> 04:15.961\n所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間對不對那未來我們現在在討論到是所謂的特殊查核應該要去做相關的增加人員的一個部分請教\n\n04:18.550 --> 04:37.772\n不管是特殊查核或一般查核都是由調查局來進行據我的了解但是我現在講的是我們的公務人員任用法裡面包括第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核那相關的人員的名單不是有各機關這邊要提出來嗎\n\n04:39.013 --> 04:55.571\n我們目前來說有96個人必須要進行特殊查核是不是像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到前天滋疫應該要接受特殊查核我們認同這樣的一個想法那什麼時候提出來\n\n04:58.223 --> 05:27.444\n我們可以在布裡面可以用採取比較更高的標準雖然說現在在不是布裡面採取更高標準是法令就有明文規定了我現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條其中第二項涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核但是名單要由各機關提出來授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛那我現在要問的是既然外交部都已經講是說要做這個事情那何仁傑的這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧是\n\n05:28.084 --> 05:39.957\n那到目前為止外交部的動作咧目前外交部的動作我們是透過我們內部的政風調查好那我想請教我們有沒有落實就是說我們既然有一個老鼠屎\n\n05:41.007 --> 06:03.986\n我還是肯定我們外交同仁大家99%都很辛苦但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核然後來去做一個徹底的釐清所以至於我們這個部長在前天答覆委員的答覆我們這個委員會這邊說的一樣我們會對於相關的涉密人員進行特殊查核\n\n06:05.007 --> 06:11.936\n你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據有法源依據你才能做特審查核啊所以什麼時候要提出人員名單\n\n06:15.599 --> 06:41.699\n跟主席報告主席是這邊我是委員剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是那個特殊現在依照現在的法規規定特殊查核只能由公務人員身份的才可以那剛剛講到的核員他是用聘用人員所以目前的法規他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面那剛剛委員提到這個建議因為行政院現在正在\n\n06:42.259 --> 06:59.552\n研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核可以更完備那我們可以把委員您的建議事實跟行政院反映讓這個譬如說未來可以特殊查核的那個人員的類別擴大那如果是這樣的話布裡面就會依照有涉及修法的部分對好感謝來次長是\n\n07:02.512 --> 07:15.258\n在備詢台有一說一這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講我看到外交部部長講說應該要接受特殊查核很好啊結果有沒有修法有沒有動作\n\n07:16.837 --> 07:35.135\n沒有看到然後特殊查核本來就有名單你要有法源於據你才能去做特殊查核名單會適時增加從一開始的名單到現在你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項這一個涉及國家安全跟重大利益它的名單與時俱進\n\n07:37.117 --> 08:00.429\n那什麼時候你們再把各機關再把名單給報出來目前沒有看到案發已經兩個多月了沒有看到那現在又跟講我也看到就是說這是對於公務人員的部分那如果說他就不是公務人員他沒有適用的話你現在一直講說啊民粹的講我要用特殊查核特殊查核結果發覺法院根本不適用啊不是講爽的嗎\n\n08:02.123 --> 08:24.432\n報告我們還是依法行政當然是依法行政所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的要做就把落實就把這些事情給你要依照要修法要提出來我們共同來討論但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體我說我要特殊查那實際上根本你現在的法令就是你們做不到\n\n08:25.572 --> 08:42.360\n那是我們這個對修法的規劃的方向我們的部長跟院裡面行政院一起努力然後也請這個國安局副局長來副局長最後副局長我看到就是說因為他是各機關要提出來對\n\n08:43.741 --> 08:59.764\n所以難免掛一漏萬是不是國安局要用更高的國安的視角來去通盤的檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核什麼樣的人員是一般查核\n\n09:00.645 --> 09:16.894\n這個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出特殊查核的全管機關是福岡部是調查局來做特殊的一個查核那剛委員的一個建立部分我都理解調查局做查核現在我提的是說\n\n09:17.654 --> 09:35.290\n每個機關報人名單出來給調查局做查核那個機關報嘛我們現在的問題就是在於是說之前就是沒有把資義列進去你沒有報出來資義它又不屬於公務人員那現在說外交部說要做通盤檢討行政院也說通盤檢討好那我現在問的是說各機關如果還是一樣各自為政你們自己機關去盤點說哪些人要送特殊查核哪些人要一般查核難免掛一路外\n\n09:44.978 --> 10:13.792\n也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度你檢視我們國家哪些植物有可能他植物不夠高但是他金手機密多他也應該要列為特殊查核副議長這個我想一個特殊查核要有一個定義就是說以接觸機密的資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受那個透視的一個查核那沒錯剛剛委員的一個提議是沒錯但擔心說各機關報的話會掛一落萬那\n\n10:14.872 --> 10:32.197\n這個部分我想我們可以結合其他部門通盤的一個檢討讓這些真的需要做特殊查核的人把他擬列出來做相關查核的工作副議長在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度\n\n10:32.737 --> 10:52.472\n就是在於我剛剛講說國安局列出六大項其實這六大項各位同仁都很清楚你們有沒有做有做沒有落實所以現在要落實兩個字執行到位才能夠真真正正的防止相關的滲透否則的話都是作假的以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.546,"end":3.89,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請外交部次長跟國安局副局長"},{"start":8.849,"end":33.82,"text":"委員好 市長好 副局長我先請教一下副局長好不好副局長 委員好這個媒體報導說前軍情局局長也曾經示警說現在有可能共諜在台灣有超過五千名以上這樣的一個數字因為據報導講說1999年推估約差不多兩千名那過去這段時間增加了變五千名以上"},{"start":34.963,"end":58.411,"text":"涵瓜可能政府單位涵瓜可能企業民間等等的這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽還是確有其事這個是他的一個推估不過我們的一個掌握了解是目前來講是沒有那麼多人沒那麼多人對我們實際上有受理的有情資的一個收報的部分是沒有這麼多人是"},{"start":59.332,"end":69.998,"text":"掌握沒有那麼多人是我以為你會講的是說更多人因為現在感覺好像每個地方民進黨政府上任之後很多部會等等的都被共諜深入啦"},{"start":71.232,"end":97.712,"text":"我們當然很擔憂我再一次強調站在這個立場上面中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯我覺得這個是我自始至終的一個立場跟態度台灣2320萬人是我們共同維護的價值所以我們當然要用力的來去把任何的間諜都給交出來國安局昨天有講說有六大的反制措施對不對"},{"start":98.803,"end":113.141,"text":"有嗎好副議長其實本期有看了一下六大反制措施啊國安局不是第一天成立所以其實這六大反制措施過去有沒有做有做但我覺得重點在於一件事情重點在哪邊你知道嗎"},{"start":114.15,"end":135.271,"text":"有沒有落實啊我們其實法令都有啊2019年的時候那時候民進黨國會多數過半一次要通過國安法也通過啦我們有法在那邊啊如果說真的有共諜有任何的這種違反國家安全機密的話抓起來辦嚴辦重辦不是讓他在那邊"},{"start":136.513,"end":163.09,"text":"可以把我們相關的資料給竊取出去但重點在於是有沒有落實所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分落實的部分其實剛剛很多委員都已經在講過所謂的特殊查核對不對我們來先請教一下因為這為什麼會請外交部也一起上台就是這個何仁傑這一位那他過去擔任過外交部的資義是不是"},{"start":166.901,"end":182.47,"text":"那他從什麼單位然後再到外交部之後又再離開他是不是擔任過好幾個政府不同的機關的部門的職務是那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面只有他出任公務人員的時候的一次一般性的查核"},{"start":183.949,"end":199.61,"text":"報告委員他在進到國安會之前他從之前在國安會那麼有進行過特殊查核還有進行過特殊查核嗎是因為媒體報導講說他只有2016年的也是一般查核"},{"start":201.412,"end":217.064,"text":"2016年那個是一個特殊查核他是來到國安會那麼到本部服務之前有進行按照我們的這個慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核新進人員一般查核但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核國安會在我們到進到本部之前"},{"start":217.785,"end":243.322,"text":"本部之前有特殊查核,但是進本部就只有一般查核是的,因為他的職位是一等之一好,那這樣子就凸顯兩個部分,就是他的工作其實大家就講,就是說他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的因為他等於就在部長身邊,或是說他經手很多公文是部長才能看到,但是他會經手"},{"start":244.302,"end":255.961,"text":"所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間對不對那未來我們現在在討論到是所謂的特殊查核應該要去做相關的增加人員的一個部分請教"},{"start":258.55,"end":277.772,"text":"不管是特殊查核或一般查核都是由調查局來進行據我的了解但是我現在講的是我們的公務人員任用法裡面包括第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核那相關的人員的名單不是有各機關這邊要提出來嗎"},{"start":279.013,"end":295.571,"text":"我們目前來說有96個人必須要進行特殊查核是不是像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到前天滋疫應該要接受特殊查核我們認同這樣的一個想法那什麼時候提出來"},{"start":298.223,"end":327.444,"text":"我們可以在布裡面可以用採取比較更高的標準雖然說現在在不是布裡面採取更高標準是法令就有明文規定了我現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條其中第二項涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核但是名單要由各機關提出來授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛那我現在要問的是既然外交部都已經講是說要做這個事情那何仁傑的這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧是"},{"start":328.084,"end":339.957,"text":"那到目前為止外交部的動作咧目前外交部的動作我們是透過我們內部的政風調查好 那我想請教我們有沒有落實就是說我們既然有一個老鼠屎"},{"start":341.007,"end":363.986,"text":"我還是肯定我們外交同仁大家99%都很辛苦但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核然後來去做一個徹底的釐清所以至於我們這個部長在前天答覆委員的答覆我們這個委員會這邊說的一樣我們會對於相關的涉密人員進行特殊查核"},{"start":365.007,"end":371.936,"text":"你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據有法源依據你才能做特審查核啊所以什麼時候要提出人員名單"},{"start":375.599,"end":401.699,"text":"跟主席報告主席是這邊我是委員剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是那個特殊現在依照現在的法規規定特殊查核只能由公務人員身份的才可以那剛剛講到的核員他是用聘用人員所以目前的法規他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面那剛剛委員提到這個建議因為行政院現在正在"},{"start":402.259,"end":419.552,"text":"研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核可以更完備那我們可以把委員您的建議事實跟行政院反映讓這個譬如說未來可以特殊查核的那個人員的類別擴大那如果是這樣的話布裡面就會依照有涉及修法的部分對好 感謝來 次長是"},{"start":422.512,"end":435.258,"text":"在備詢台有一說一這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講我看到外交部部長講說應該要接受特殊查核很好啊結果有沒有修法有沒有動作"},{"start":436.837,"end":455.135,"text":"沒有看到然後特殊查核本來就有名單你要有法源於據你才能去做特殊查核名單會適時增加從一開始的名單到現在你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項這一個涉及國家安全跟重大利益它的名單與時俱進"},{"start":457.117,"end":480.429,"text":"那什麼時候你們再把各機關再把名單給報出來目前沒有看到案發已經兩個多月了沒有看到那現在又跟講我也看到就是說這是對於公務人員的部分那如果說他就不是公務人員他沒有適用的話你現在一直講說啊民粹的講我要用特殊查核特殊查核結果發覺法院根本不適用啊不是講爽的嗎"},{"start":482.123,"end":504.432,"text":"報告我們還是依法行政當然是依法行政所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的要做就把落實就把這些事情給你要依照要修法要提出來我們共同來討論但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體我說我要特殊查那實際上根本你現在的法令就是你們做不到"},{"start":505.572,"end":522.36,"text":"那是我們這個對修法的規劃的方向我們的部長跟院裡面行政院一起努力然後也請這個國安局副局長來副局長最後副局長我看到就是說因為他是各機關要提出來對"},{"start":523.741,"end":539.764,"text":"所以難免掛一漏萬是不是國安局要用更高的國安的視角來去通盤的檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核什麼樣的人員是一般查核"},{"start":540.645,"end":556.894,"text":"這個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出特殊查核的全管機關是福岡部是調查局來做特殊的一個查核那剛委員的一個建立部分我都理解調查局做查核現在我提的是說"},{"start":557.654,"end":575.29,"text":"每個機關報人名單出來給調查局做查核 那個機關報嘛我們現在的問題就是在於是說之前就是沒有把資義列進去 你沒有報出來資義它又不屬於公務人員 那現在說外交部說要做通盤檢討 行政院也說通盤檢討好 那我現在問的是說各機關如果還是一樣各自為政 你們自己機關去盤點說哪些人要送特殊查核 哪些人要一般查核 難免掛一路外"},{"start":584.978,"end":613.792,"text":"也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度你檢視我們國家哪些植物有可能他植物不夠高但是他金手機密多他也應該要列為特殊查核副議長這個我想一個特殊查核要有一個定義就是說以接觸機密的資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受那個透視的一個查核那沒錯剛剛委員的一個提議是沒錯但擔心說各機關報的話會掛一落萬那"},{"start":614.872,"end":632.197,"text":"這個部分我想我們可以結合其他部門通盤的一個檢討讓這些真的需要做特殊查核的人把他擬列出來做相關查核的工作副議長在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度"},{"start":632.737,"end":652.472,"text":"就是在於我剛剛講說 國安局列出六大項其實這六大項 各位同仁都很清楚你們有沒有做 有做 沒有落實所以現在要落實 兩個字執行到位 才能夠真真正正的防止相關的滲透否則的話都是作假的 以上 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時34分）主席謝謝，麻煩請外交部次長跟國安局副局長。"],["陳次長明祺：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好。我先請教一下副局長，好不好？"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：媒體報導說前軍情局局長曾經示警，現在有可能共諜在臺灣超過5,000名以上，這樣的一個數字，因為據報導講說1999年推估約2,000名，在過去這一段時間增加了，變5,000名以上，可能含括政府單位，可能含括企業、民間等等，這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽？還是確有其事？"],["黃副局長明昭：這個是他的推估啦！不過就我們的掌握瞭解，目前來講是沒有那麼多人。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒那麼多人？"],["黃副局長明昭：對，我們實際上有受理的，有情資蒐報的部分是沒有這麼多人。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，掌握沒有那麼多人。"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我以為你會講說更多人，因為現在感覺好像每個地方，在民進黨政府上任之後，很多部會等等的都被共諜深入，我們當然很擔憂。","我再一次強調，站在這個立場上面，中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯，我覺得這個是我自始至終的立場跟態度，臺灣2,350萬人是我們共同維護的價值，所以我們當然要用力地來把任何的間諜都給揪出來。"],["黃副局長明昭：我要補充報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：國安局昨天說有六大反制措施，對不對？有嘛？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，副局長，其實本席有看了一下六大反制措施，國安局不是第一天成立，所以這六大反制措施過去有沒有做？有做，但我覺得重點在於一件事情，重點在哪邊你知道嗎？有沒有落實啊！"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實法令都有啊！2019年的時候，那時候民進黨國會多數過半，一次要通過國安法，也通過啦！我們有法在那邊啊！如果說真的有共諜，有任何違反國家安全機密的話，抓起來辦！嚴辦！重辦！不是讓他在那邊把我們相關的資料竊取出去，但重點是在於有沒有落實，所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分。落實的部分，其實剛剛很多委員都已經講過所謂的特殊查核，對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們先來請教一下，為什麼會請外交部也一起上臺？就是何仁傑這一位，他過去擔任過外交部的諮議，是不是？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，是，一等諮議。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，他是從什麼單位再到外交部的諮議，然後之後又離開？他是不是擔任過政府好幾個機關部門的職務？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面，只有在他出任公務人員的時候，有一次一般性查核？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，報告委員，他在進到國安會之前，他之前在國安會有進行過特殊查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：他有進行過特殊查核嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為媒體報導說他只在2016年有一次一般查核哦！"],["陳次長明祺：2016……"],["洪委員孟楷：2016年他出任……"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，那個是特殊查核，他是到國安會。那麼到本部服務之前，按照慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：新進人員一般查核，但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核？"],["陳次長明祺：國安會是在進到本部之前。"],["洪委員孟楷：本部之前有特殊查核，但是進本部就只有一般查核。"],["陳次長明祺：是的，因為他的職位是一等諮議。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，這樣子就凸顯兩個部分，其實大家就講，他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高，但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的，因為他等於就在部長身邊或是他經手很多公文是部長才能看到，但是他會經手，所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間，對不對？那未來，我們現在討論的是特殊查核應該要去增加相關人員的部分，請教次長。"],["陳次長明祺：不管是特殊查核或一般查核，都是由調查局來進行，據我的瞭解……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯，由調查局進行，但是我現在講的是，在公務人員任用法裡面，第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核，相關人員的名單不是由各機關這邊要提出來嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：是，目前來說，我們收到有96個人必須要進行特殊查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們現在在講的是說，像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到……"],["陳次長明祺：前天。"],["洪委員孟楷：前天。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：諮議應該要接受特殊查核，對不對？所以我們現在是……"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們認同這樣的想法。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，那什麼時候提出來？"],["陳次長明祺：我們可以在部裡面採取更高的標準，雖然說現在在……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，這不是部裡面採取更高的標準，是法令就有明文規定了，現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條，其中第二項是涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核，但是名單要由各機關提出來，授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛！我現在要問的是，既然外交部已經說要做這件事情，何仁傑這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那到目前為止，外交部的動作咧？我們有沒有落實？"],["陳次長明祺：目前外交部的動作，我們是透過內部的政風調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我想請教，我們有沒有落實？既然有一個老鼠屎，我還是肯定我們外交同仁，大家99%都很辛苦，但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎？"],["陳次長明祺：這個要透過查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核，然後去做一個澈底的釐清？"],["陳次長明祺：所以正如我們部長在前天答復委員會這邊說的一樣，我們對於相關涉密人員會進行特殊查核，這是我們作為後來的……"],["洪委員孟楷：你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據，有法源依據你才能做特殊查核啊！"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以什麼時候要提出人員名單？"],["呂處長世壹：跟主席報告，主席剛剛講得是沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：主席是這邊，我是委員。"],["呂處長世壹：跟委員報告，剛剛委員講得沒有錯，依照現在的法規規定，特殊查核只能有公務人員身分的才可以，因為剛剛講到的何員他是聘用人員，所以依目前的法規，他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面。","至於剛剛委員所提的建議，因為行政院現在正在研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核更完備，我們可以把委員的建議適時向行政院反映，譬如說未來可以讓特殊查核的人員類別擴大，如果是這樣的話，部裡面就會依照我們的……"],["洪委員孟楷：有涉及修法的部分。"],["呂處長世壹：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，感謝。來，次長。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：在備詢臺有一說一，這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講，我看到外交部部長說應該要接受特殊查核，很好啊！結果有沒有修法？有沒有動作？沒有看到！"],["陳次長明祺：現在正在……"],["洪委員孟楷：然後特殊查核本來就有名單，你要有法源依據才能去做特殊查核，名單會適時增加，從一開始的名單到現在，你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項，涉及國家安全跟重大利益，它的名單與時俱進啊！什麼時候各機關再把名單給報出來，目前沒有看到，案發已經兩個多月了，沒有看到。那現在又跟你講，我也看到這個是對於公務人員的部分，如果他不是公務人員，他沒有適用的話，你現在一直民粹地講我要用特殊查核、特殊查核，結果發覺法源根本不適用，不是講爽的嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：報告，我們還是依法行政，那麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然是依法行政，所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的，要做就落實，就把這些事情給……"],["陳次長明祺：我們把……"],["洪委員孟楷：你要提出修法，我們共同來討論，但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體，我說我要特殊查核，實際上你現在的法令就是你們做不到！"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，那個是我們對於修法的規劃方向，我們部長跟行政院會一起努力，也請貴院能夠一起來……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我請國安局副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，副局長，因為它是各機關要提出來，所以難免掛一漏萬，是不是國安局要用更高的國安視角去通盤檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核、什麼樣的人員是一般查核，這一個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出？來，請講。"],["黃副局長明昭：特殊查核的權管機關是法務部，是調查局來做特殊查核，剛剛委員建議的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：副局長，我都理解調查局做查核，現在我提的是說，每個機關報名單出來給調查局做查核，由那個機關報嘛！我們現在的問題是在於之前沒有把諮議列進去，你沒有報出來，諮議他又不屬於公務人員，所以現在外交部說要做通盤檢討，行政院也說通盤檢討。","我現在問的是，各機關如果還是一樣各自為政，你們自己機關去盤點哪些人要送特殊查核、哪些人要一般查核，難免掛一漏萬，也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度，你檢視我們國家有哪些職務，可能他的職務不夠高但是他經手機密多，他也應該要列為特殊查核。"],["黃副局長明昭：我想特殊查核要有一個定義，就是以接觸機密資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受特殊查核，剛剛委員的提議是沒錯，擔心各機關報的話會掛一漏萬，這個部分我們可以結合其它部門做通盤的檢討，把真的需要做特殊查核的這些人擬列出來，做相關查核的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，副局長，在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度，我剛剛說國安局列出六大項，其實這六大項各位同仁都很清楚，你們有沒有做？有做，但沒有落實，所以現在要「落實」兩個字執行到位，才能夠真真正正地防止相關的滲透，否則的話都是做假的。以上，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。","接下來由徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}}