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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 762.135, \"end\": 762.175, \"score\": 0.015}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 762.175, \"end\": 762.195, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 762.195, \"end\": 762.215, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 762.215, \"end\": 762.315, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 762.315, \"end\": 762.335, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,429 --> 00:00:08,973\n謝謝主席我們先請外交部政次然後我們那個政風處然後還有國安局副局長好嗎委員好我想問一下那個副局長關於和人節是共諜這件事情你們是什麼時候掌握的啊請問委員是要問副局長還是要問副局長副局長國安會\n\n2\n00:00:27,262 --> 00:00:49,139\n這個案件國安局是有掌握那有這個情報以後我們交給那個司法警察檢調單位去做後續那個調查的所以我的意思是說你們是提前掌握的是嗎提前多提前在事件在4月10號然後收網的多久以前掌握的\n\n3\n00:00:51,411 --> 00:01:05,108\n這個時間我相關的細節是不是我這裡就不方便在這邊來說明因為我在4月8號的時候其實就提出了和人節這個外交部裡面的過去的和人節裡面他是有涉及到相關共諜的這個案子\n\n4\n00:01:06,610 --> 00:01:28,649\n但是當時呢國安局是死不承認只把焦點放在呢可能我物質的照片上面但是何人傑他卻有其人而且他的成績還相當的高可能他所洩露跟販賣給中共的這個機密是大於我們所想所以當下我們在質詢的時候我覺得國安局就用了一個方式好像就草草帶過\n\n5\n00:01:29,750 --> 00:01:54,655\n那如果今天不是我提出了就是說為什麼黃曲榮也就是他的上線已經被公佈出來了他第一條線已經全部公開出來了但就是第二條線裡面的何仁傑毫無動作那這個事件或許就不了了之所以你們國安局如果提早掌握的話那完全沒有動作這是我想不能接受的那再來我要問一下政風處外交部的政風處政風處的部分這個\n\n6\n00:01:59,196 --> 00:02:26,858\n我想問一下你們現在在調查的部分啊正在調查嘛我問過很多次了正在進行調查你們是什麼時候開始進行調查的報告委員我們是在4月12號是禮拜六的週末我們接到部長辦公室主任的指示4月12號開始調查的嘛那調查的方向呢有包含前外交部長吳釗燮嗎\n\n7\n00:02:28,559 --> 00:02:42,815\n因為他是裡面的關鍵人物啊報告委員因為是這樣子喔因為在總統府他們也有政風室所以這個部分呢我們必須要先不對不對因為他當時是外交部長不是國安會秘書長\n\n8\n00:02:43,596 --> 00:03:06,889\n所以當時何仁傑跟吳釗燮在販售機密資料給中共的時候是吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候所以你們如果要政風要調查的話當然是以當時的處境而不是現在所以吳釗燮是當時的外交部長也是何仁傑的重要關係人\n\n9\n00:03:07,529 --> 00:03:11,993\n那政風處不打算針對當時的外交部長吳釗燮進行調查嗎政風處沒有這樣子的一個打算嗎報告委員因為吳秘書長現職是國安會秘書長所以總統府本身就有政風事但是他不是在那個時候啊國安會他調查國安會的但我現在問你\n\n10\n00:03:30,708 --> 00:03:40,258\n我問你的是外交部嘛國安會今天又沒有來我問你的是外交部嘛因為他有在國安會秘書長任內也有在外交部任內啊你都說你啟動政風調查了卻不去查核當時的外交部長也就是這個和人節的重要關係人\n\n11\n00:03:48,547 --> 00:04:03,557\n當時的外交部長騰寫相關行程資料甚至有可能有把我們的直接跟駐美代表處這邊相關的文件有看過經手過公文販賣出去你不知道他拍了多少東西結果我們的政風處在調查的時候不去調查當時的外交部長吳釗燮嗎最後問你一次不去調查\n\n12\n00:04:10,643 --> 00:04:13,884\n我叫這個很簡單嘛就是這個政風調查裡面你要調查哪一些人嘛我們調查的人員主要就是當時曾經在部長紀要室跟何仁傑共事過的同事那對啊請問吳釗燮是不是他同事\n\n13\n00:04:30,979 --> 00:04:43,465\n是的但是是的那為什麼我們覺得他偏偏他可以不用受到調查你都說是了啊不是嘛所以他現在當高官你就可以不用政風就可以不用查他那我們要你們政風做什麼他當時的時間點就是外交部長我們在追溯的政風就是這個部分跟他現在的職位是沒有關聯性的啊\n\n14\n00:04:52,861 --> 00:05:19,727\n報告委員,那麼有關於這個相關的這個案件事實上擁有完整的調查權的不太...我現在只問政鋒而已嘛我只是問政鋒而已,你不用上來回答嘛是他們自己說他們正在進行調查的所以我才想知道你調查的對象有哪一些人,有沒有包括前外交部長那他剛剛也已經很清楚告訴我們說沒有所以我已經知道了,謝謝你們幾位可以先回那我們請那個顧立雄部長,謝謝\n\n15\n00:05:29,432 --> 00:05:34,495\n是徐委員好部長好國軍薪資在千呼萬喚當中終於有提高志願役的加級分別有不同的數字戰鬥部隊的加級也有但是舊媒體在3月18號的國防部業務的報告說明裡面本來要送的是五項加級也就是志願役、戰鬥部隊、戰航管、電程跟網路戰\n\n16\n00:05:54,767 --> 00:06:10,320\n但是呢現在突然被分開了就3月21號的時候被分開成一波兩波那為什麼要突然分開成兩波呢它的具體原因是什麼我們送行政院的時候本來就是第一波是送志願役跟戰鬥部隊那戰艦館跟電偵網路站現在在人種審議當中\n\n17\n00:06:14,764 --> 00:06:26,251\nOK所以大概有什麼時候會在第二波的部分會有結果出來我們希望盡快希望盡快應該盡快應該現在還有一些呃呃呈戶的說明我想應該會盡快會出來好那請問第二波呃這個發了之後請問第三波會有嗎還是這個五項就是我們現在目前可能會有的加級之後都沒有沒有第三波有第三波嗎\n\n18\n00:06:42,468 --> 00:06:56,562\n上次委員也有決議說叫我們要檢討上次是反情報的這個部分那我想我們其他都還會再研議但是還沒有一個定案\n\n19\n00:06:57,583 --> 00:07:16,426\n那我要告诉大家的就是说在这个我们提出来这个加薪方案之后当然我是支持给予加急的但后来发现一个问题就是因为只针对志愿役跟战斗部队还有第二波可能会有的这三项就是战航管电阵跟网路战\n\n20\n00:07:16,866 --> 00:07:41,951\n但是呢這反而造成了反而造成了很多基層官兵的陳情因為呢還有很多他們現在是辛苦程度也很高但是呢他們卻沒有被加級的那比方說好了我們給大家看一下像是後勤維保幕僚文官招募跟氣象相關他們都完全沒有任何加級的提升那我的想法是不見得每一個\n\n21\n00:07:42,851 --> 00:07:55,599\n每一個這個職位他的加級都要很高不見得因為呢比方說像可能有一些單位的他的邊線比本來就比較高那可能他我們希望可以在戰鬥部隊這個邊線比較低的地方能夠去加強可是當我們這一次進行了一個全部全面性的這個加級的時候卻漏掉了後勤維保幕僚文官招募跟氣象等等等相關的這些加級的時候會讓他們覺得國防部不重視他們\n\n22\n00:08:11,368 --> 00:08:38,519\n甚至使得我們在很多的這個軍人之間互相產生比較互相產生對對方的不滿甚至還會有一種狀況是他的軍階比較高但他領的薪資比較少那請問呢部長要怎麼解決這種狀況以及我剛剛提的這些加級有沒有可能就是說數字多少我覺得呢這個是交由國防部討論的但是完全沒有加級這件事情是會讓這些人喊醒的\n\n23\n00:08:39,789 --> 00:08:52,416\n跟委員報告第一點我們本來加擠的項目本來就有20我了解有20幾種的加擠並不是說所有的這些都沒有加擠我們要新增任何的加擠要\n\n24\n00:09:00,420 --> 00:09:20,465\n有很多的考量的因素因為不是說今天我們增加了戰隊部隊加緊然後其他人也說那我也要加緊對啊可是大家就會說那我後勤不重要嗎我幕僚不重要威保不重要嗎招募不重要嗎我平常我漢光的時候都跟大家一起在努力啊那為什麼就只有他們有加我們沒有加呢\n\n25\n00:09:20,805 --> 00:09:46,681\n我們也沒有說我們一定要加很多但是這次國防部在這整次的重大調整薪資案裡面加擠案裡面你們是不是都不重視我們這是我們聽到非常非常多的基層官兵在質疑國防部的事情而且它造成了很多就是呢戰鬥部隊然後呢跟這個一些比如說後勤幕僚等等的一些紛爭那這樣子完全不利於團結我們的軍心啊\n\n26\n00:09:47,783 --> 00:10:09,368\n跟委員報告你有看到我們志願役的加級有那志願役加級就是適用於全體的人員而且我們這個在做志願役加級的時候我們還特別照顧基層的官兵所以如果要這樣子那降級也可以說那我的志願役加級為什麼只剩三千塊錢\n\n27\n00:10:10,526 --> 00:10:35,031\n那所以我想我們始終會有一條線這條線就是在於說我們要維持住我們的優質的國軍人才所以那後勤維保幕僚他們因為戰鬥部隊有額外再加嘛除了志願役之外額外再加嘛那他們就問說那所以後勤維保幕僚他們沒有戰鬥部隊的人員據我們的了解已經佔比例超過百分之五十幾到\n\n28\n00:10:35,931 --> 00:11:03,245\n那另外50%的人他就會覺得你們都不關心他們嗎沒有我剛剛也講過了我們還有其他的很多種的加級我這本來就知道啊但問題是說新增的部分因為你新增你說志願役的部分他三個都有嘛那但是問題是說你針對戰鬥部隊你還額外50%的人對不對你額外你給他加級而且加級比較多嘛那這些我現在列出來這些是完全沒有在網上做加級嘛\n\n29\n00:11:04,065 --> 00:11:23,213\n所以它造成一個問題你們真的要去想一想而且你們要去基層問一下這個軍人就是說他們現在有出現就是大家互看不順眼的狀況就覺得為什麼你有啊我沒有是不是國是不是國防部長都不重視我們尤其在後勤這個部分其實討論跟議論私下是非常多的\n\n30\n00:11:23,573 --> 00:11:51,433\n所以这是部长要给这些基层的国军交代的问题这个我是把我们所收到的这些名义来跟部长去做反应因为非常非常多我们也随时会注意这一点不过跟委员报告过去即使我们没有挑战战斗部的价值也有二十几种价值那如果每一个人都互相来比较的话我知道但他就是会互相比较嘛哪有人公司里面薪水不互相比较的呢那国防部的立场就是要有一个整体的思维\n\n31\n00:11:51,613 --> 00:12:06,202\n是整體的思維在裡面比如說你可能覺得這一些戰鬥部隊他比較辛苦所以你給他加了比較多的那可能呢他們在後續的像後勤幕僚等等的這一些沒有加目前沒有增加加給的部分那你也可以加少一點啊這是誠意的問題啊\n\n32\n00:12:08,243 --> 00:12:19,432\n就是這次整個大規模的加急的時候你完全忽視了他們導致他們心理不平衡的問題所以布朗沒關係我只想告訴你說我現在是把基層軍官基層士兵他們的這個反應給我們的陳情反應給你因為人數非常多所以我們希望國防部可以回去再聽一聽基層的意見再想一想加急的錢多還是少我在這裡完全尊重國防部的決定\n\n33\n00:12:36,525 --> 00:12:42,335\n但是當大家都在新增的時候那這一群人他完全沒有被新增到那對於整體國軍的這個氣勢跟團結來說呢是有不利的狀況的以上說明謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n429\t8973\t謝謝主席我們先請外交部政次然後我們那個政風處然後還有國安局副局長好嗎委員好我想問一下那個副局長關於和人節是共諜這件事情你們是什麼時候掌握的啊請問委員是要問副局長還是要問副局長副局長國安會\n27262\t49139\t這個案件 國安局是有掌握那有這個情報以後我們交給那個司法警察檢調單位去做後續那個調查的所以我的意思是說你們是提前掌握的是嗎提前 多提前在事件 在4月10號 然後收網的多久以前掌握的\n51411\t65108\t這個時間我相關的細節是不是我這裡就不方便在這邊來說明因為我在4月8號的時候其實就提出了和人節這個外交部裡面的過去的和人節裡面他是有涉及到相關共諜的這個案子\n66610\t88649\t但是當時呢國安局是死不承認只把焦點放在呢可能我物質的照片上面但是何人傑他卻有其人而且他的成績還相當的高可能他所洩露跟販賣給中共的這個機密是大於我們所想所以當下我們在質詢的時候我覺得國安局就用了一個方式好像就草草帶過\n89750\t114655\t那如果今天不是我提出了就是說為什麼黃曲榮也就是他的上線已經被公佈出來了他第一條線已經全部公開出來了但就是第二條線裡面的何仁傑毫無動作那這個事件或許就不了了之所以你們國安局如果提早掌握的話那完全沒有動作這是我想不能接受的那再來我要問一下政風處外交部的政風處政風處的部分這個\n119196\t146858\t我想問一下你們現在在調查的部分啊正在調查嘛我問過很多次了正在進行調查你們是什麼時候開始進行調查的報告委員我們是在4月12號是禮拜六的週末我們接到部長辦公室主任的指示4月12號開始調查的嘛那調查的方向呢有包含前外交部長吳釗燮嗎\n148559\t162815\t因為他是裡面的關鍵人物啊報告委員因為是這樣子喔因為在總統府他們也有政風室所以這個部分呢我們必須要先不對不對因為他當時是外交部長不是國安會秘書長\n163596\t186889\t所以當時何仁傑跟吳釗燮在販售機密資料給中共的時候是吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候所以你們如果要政風要調查的話當然是以當時的處境而不是現在所以吳釗燮是當時的外交部長也是何仁傑的重要關係人\n187529\t191993\t那政風處不打算針對當時的外交部長吳釗燮進行調查嗎政風處沒有這樣子的一個打算嗎報告委員因為吳秘書長現職是國安會秘書長所以總統府本身就有政風事但是他不是在那個時候啊國安會他調查國安會的但我現在問你\n210708\t220258\t我問你的是外交部嘛國安會今天又沒有來我問你的是外交部嘛因為他有在國安會秘書長任內也有在外交部任內啊你都說你啟動政風調查了卻不去查核當時的外交部長也就是這個和人節的重要關係人\n228547\t243557\t當時的外交部長騰寫相關行程資料甚至有可能有把我們的直接跟駐美代表處這邊相關的文件有看過經手過公文販賣出去你不知道他拍了多少東西結果我們的政風處在調查的時候不去調查當時的外交部長吳釗燮嗎最後問你一次不去調查\n250643\t253884\t我叫這個很簡單嘛就是這個政風調查裡面你要調查哪一些人嘛我們調查的人員主要就是當時曾經在部長紀要室跟何仁傑共事過的同事那對啊 請問吳釗燮是不是他同事\n270979\t283465\t是的 但是是的 那為什麼我們覺得他偏偏他可以不用受到調查你都說是了啊不是嘛 所以他現在當高官你就可以不用 政風就可以不用查他那我們要你們政風做什麼他當時的時間點就是外交部長我們在追溯的政風就是這個部分跟他現在的職位是沒有關聯性的啊\n292861\t319727\t報告委員,那麼有關於這個相關的這個案件事實上擁有完整的調查權的不太...我現在只問政鋒而已嘛我只是問政鋒而已,你不用上來回答嘛是他們自己說他們正在進行調查的所以我才想知道你調查的對象有哪一些人,有沒有包括前外交部長那他剛剛也已經很清楚告訴我們說沒有所以我已經知道了,謝謝你們幾位可以先回那我們請那個顧立雄部長,謝謝\n329432\t334495\t是 徐委員好部長好 國軍薪資在千呼萬喚當中終於有提高志願役的加級分別有不同的數字戰鬥部隊的加級也有但是舊媒體在3月18號的國防部業務的報告說明裡面本來要送的是五項加級也就是志願役、戰鬥部隊、戰航管、電程跟網路戰\n354767\t370320\t但是呢現在突然被分開了就3月21號的時候被分開成一波兩波那為什麼要突然分開成兩波呢它的具體原因是什麼我們送行政院的時候本來就是第一波是送志願役跟戰鬥部隊那戰艦館跟電偵網路站現在在人種審議當中\n374764\t386251\tOK 所以大概有什麼時候會在第二波的部分會有結果出來我們希望盡快希望盡快應該盡快應該現在還有一些呃呃呈戶的說明我想應該會盡快會出來好那請問第二波呃這個發了之後請問第三波會有嗎還是這個五項就是我們現在目前可能會有的加級之後都沒有沒有第三波有第三波嗎\n402468\t416562\t上次委員也有決議說叫我們要檢討上次是反情報的這個部分那我想我們其他都還會再研議但是還沒有一個定案\n417583\t436426\t那我要告诉大家的就是说在这个我们提出来这个加薪方案之后当然我是支持给予加急的但后来发现一个问题就是因为只针对志愿役跟战斗部队还有第二波可能会有的这三项就是战航管电阵跟网路战\n436866\t461951\t但是呢這反而造成了反而造成了很多基層官兵的陳情因為呢還有很多他們現在是辛苦程度也很高但是呢他們卻沒有被加級的那比方說好了我們給大家看一下像是後勤維保幕僚文官招募跟氣象相關他們都完全沒有任何加級的提升那我的想法是不見得每一個\n462851\t475599\t每一個這個職位他的加級都要很高不見得因為呢比方說像可能有一些單位的他的邊線比本來就比較高那可能他我們希望可以在戰鬥部隊這個邊線比較低的地方能夠去加強可是當我們這一次進行了一個全部全面性的這個加級的時候卻漏掉了後勤 維保 幕僚 文官招募跟氣象等等等相關的這些加級的時候會讓他們覺得國防部不重視他們\n491368\t518519\t甚至使得我們在很多的這個軍人之間互相產生比較互相產生對對方的不滿甚至還會有一種狀況是他的軍階比較高但他領的薪資比較少那請問呢部長要怎麼解決這種狀況以及我剛剛提的這些加級有沒有可能就是說數字多少我覺得呢這個是交由國防部討論的但是完全沒有加級這件事情是會讓這些人喊醒的\n519789\t532416\t跟委員報告第一點我們本來加擠的項目本來就有20我了解有20幾種的加擠並不是說所有的這些都沒有加擠我們要新增任何的加擠要\n540420\t560465\t有很多的考量的因素因為不是說今天我們增加了戰隊部隊加緊然後其他人也說那我也要加緊對啊 可是大家就會說那我後勤不重要嗎我幕僚不重要 威保不重要嗎招募不重要嗎我平常我漢光的時候都跟大家一起在努力啊那為什麼就只有他們有加我們沒有加呢\n560805\t586681\t我們也沒有說我們一定要加很多但是這次國防部在這整次的重大調整薪資案裡面加擠案裡面你們是不是都不重視我們這是我們聽到非常非常多的基層官兵在質疑國防部的事情而且它造成了很多就是呢戰鬥部隊然後呢跟這個一些比如說後勤幕僚等等的一些紛爭那這樣子完全不利於團結我們的軍心啊\n587783\t609368\t跟委員報告 你有看到我們志願役的加級有那志願役加級就是適用於全體的人員而且我們這個在做志願役加級的時候我們還特別照顧基層的官兵所以如果要這樣子 那降級也可以說那我的志願役加級為什麼只剩三千塊錢\n610526\t635031\t那所以我想我們始終會有一條線這條線就是在於說我們要維持住我們的優質的國軍人才所以那後勤維保幕僚他們因為戰鬥部隊有額外再加嘛除了志願役之外額外再加嘛那他們就問說那所以後勤維保幕僚他們沒有戰鬥部隊的人員據我們的了解已經佔比例超過百分之五十幾到\n635931\t663245\t那另外50%的人他就會覺得你們都不關心他們嗎沒有我剛剛也講過了我們還有其他的很多種的加級我這本來就知道啊但問題是說新增的部分因為你新增你說志願役的部分他三個都有嘛那但是問題是說你針對戰鬥部隊你還額外50%的人對不對你額外你給他加級而且加級比較多嘛那這些我現在列出來這些是完全沒有在網上做加級嘛\n664065\t683213\t所以它造成一個問題你們真的要去想一想而且你們要去基層問一下這個軍人就是說他們現在有出現就是大家互看不順眼的狀況就覺得為什麼你有啊我沒有是不是國是不是國防部長都不重視我們尤其在後勤這個部分其實討論跟議論私下是非常多的\n683573\t711433\t所以这是部长要给这些基层的国军交代的问题这个我是把我们所收到的这些名义来跟部长去做反应因为非常非常多我们也随时会注意这一点不过跟委员报告过去即使我们没有挑战战斗部的价值也有二十几种价值那如果每一个人都互相来比较的话我知道但他就是会互相比较嘛哪有人公司里面薪水不互相比较的呢那国防部的立场就是要有一个整体的思维\n711613\t726202\t是整體的思維在裡面比如說你可能覺得這一些戰鬥部隊他比較辛苦所以你給他加了比較多的那可能呢他們在後續的像後勤幕僚等等的這一些沒有加目前沒有增加加給的部分那你也可以加少一點啊這是誠意的問題啊\n728243\t739432\t就是這次整個大規模的加急的時候你完全忽視了他們導致他們心理不平衡的問題所以布朗沒關係我只想告訴你說我現在是把基層軍官基層士兵他們的這個反應給我們的陳情反應給你因為人數非常多所以我們希望國防部可以回去再聽一聽基層的意見再想一想加急的錢多還是少我在這裡完全尊重國防部的決定\n756525\t762335\t但是當大家都在新增的時候那這一群人他完全沒有被新增到那對於整體國軍的這個氣勢跟團結來說呢是有不利的狀況的以上說明謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們先請外交部政次然後我們那個政風處然後還有國安局副局長好嗎委員好我想問一下那個副局長關於和人節是共諜這件事情你們是什麼時候掌握的啊請問委員是要問副局長還是要問副局長副局長國安會\n這個案件 國安局是有掌握那有這個情報以後我們交給那個司法警察檢調單位去做後續那個調查的所以我的意思是說你們是提前掌握的是嗎提前 多提前在事件 在4月10號 然後收網的多久以前掌握的\n這個時間我相關的細節是不是我這裡就不方便在這邊來說明因為我在4月8號的時候其實就提出了和人節這個外交部裡面的過去的和人節裡面他是有涉及到相關共諜的這個案子\n但是當時呢國安局是死不承認只把焦點放在呢可能我物質的照片上面但是何人傑他卻有其人而且他的成績還相當的高可能他所洩露跟販賣給中共的這個機密是大於我們所想所以當下我們在質詢的時候我覺得國安局就用了一個方式好像就草草帶過\n那如果今天不是我提出了就是說為什麼黃曲榮也就是他的上線已經被公佈出來了他第一條線已經全部公開出來了但就是第二條線裡面的何仁傑毫無動作那這個事件或許就不了了之所以你們國安局如果提早掌握的話那完全沒有動作這是我想不能接受的那再來我要問一下政風處外交部的政風處政風處的部分這個\n我想問一下你們現在在調查的部分啊正在調查嘛我問過很多次了正在進行調查你們是什麼時候開始進行調查的報告委員我們是在4月12號是禮拜六的週末我們接到部長辦公室主任的指示4月12號開始調查的嘛那調查的方向呢有包含前外交部長吳釗燮嗎\n因為他是裡面的關鍵人物啊報告委員因為是這樣子喔因為在總統府他們也有政風室所以這個部分呢我們必須要先不對不對因為他當時是外交部長不是國安會秘書長\n所以當時何仁傑跟吳釗燮在販售機密資料給中共的時候是吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候所以你們如果要政風要調查的話當然是以當時的處境而不是現在所以吳釗燮是當時的外交部長也是何仁傑的重要關係人\n那政風處不打算針對當時的外交部長吳釗燮進行調查嗎政風處沒有這樣子的一個打算嗎報告委員因為吳秘書長現職是國安會秘書長所以總統府本身就有政風事但是他不是在那個時候啊國安會他調查國安會的但我現在問你\n我問你的是外交部嘛國安會今天又沒有來我問你的是外交部嘛因為他有在國安會秘書長任內也有在外交部任內啊你都說你啟動政風調查了卻不去查核當時的外交部長也就是這個和人節的重要關係人\n當時的外交部長騰寫相關行程資料甚至有可能有把我們的直接跟駐美代表處這邊相關的文件有看過經手過公文販賣出去你不知道他拍了多少東西結果我們的政風處在調查的時候不去調查當時的外交部長吳釗燮嗎最後問你一次不去調查\n我叫這個很簡單嘛就是這個政風調查裡面你要調查哪一些人嘛我們調查的人員主要就是當時曾經在部長紀要室跟何仁傑共事過的同事那對啊 請問吳釗燮是不是他同事\n是的 但是是的 那為什麼我們覺得他偏偏他可以不用受到調查你都說是了啊不是嘛 所以他現在當高官你就可以不用 政風就可以不用查他那我們要你們政風做什麼他當時的時間點就是外交部長我們在追溯的政風就是這個部分跟他現在的職位是沒有關聯性的啊\n報告委員,那麼有關於這個相關的這個案件事實上擁有完整的調查權的不太...我現在只問政鋒而已嘛我只是問政鋒而已,你不用上來回答嘛是他們自己說他們正在進行調查的所以我才想知道你調查的對象有哪一些人,有沒有包括前外交部長那他剛剛也已經很清楚告訴我們說沒有所以我已經知道了,謝謝你們幾位可以先回那我們請那個顧立雄部長,謝謝\n是 徐委員好部長好 國軍薪資在千呼萬喚當中終於有提高志願役的加級分別有不同的數字戰鬥部隊的加級也有但是舊媒體在3月18號的國防部業務的報告說明裡面本來要送的是五項加級也就是志願役、戰鬥部隊、戰航管、電程跟網路戰\n但是呢現在突然被分開了就3月21號的時候被分開成一波兩波那為什麼要突然分開成兩波呢它的具體原因是什麼我們送行政院的時候本來就是第一波是送志願役跟戰鬥部隊那戰艦館跟電偵網路站現在在人種審議當中\nOK 所以大概有什麼時候會在第二波的部分會有結果出來我們希望盡快希望盡快應該盡快應該現在還有一些呃呃呈戶的說明我想應該會盡快會出來好那請問第二波呃這個發了之後請問第三波會有嗎還是這個五項就是我們現在目前可能會有的加級之後都沒有沒有第三波有第三波嗎\n上次委員也有決議說叫我們要檢討上次是反情報的這個部分那我想我們其他都還會再研議但是還沒有一個定案\n那我要告诉大家的就是说在这个我们提出来这个加薪方案之后当然我是支持给予加急的但后来发现一个问题就是因为只针对志愿役跟战斗部队还有第二波可能会有的这三项就是战航管电阵跟网路战\n但是呢這反而造成了反而造成了很多基層官兵的陳情因為呢還有很多他們現在是辛苦程度也很高但是呢他們卻沒有被加級的那比方說好了我們給大家看一下像是後勤維保幕僚文官招募跟氣象相關他們都完全沒有任何加級的提升那我的想法是不見得每一個\n每一個這個職位他的加級都要很高不見得因為呢比方說像可能有一些單位的他的邊線比本來就比較高那可能他我們希望可以在戰鬥部隊這個邊線比較低的地方能夠去加強可是當我們這一次進行了一個全部全面性的這個加級的時候卻漏掉了後勤 維保 幕僚 文官招募跟氣象等等等相關的這些加級的時候會讓他們覺得國防部不重視他們\n甚至使得我們在很多的這個軍人之間互相產生比較互相產生對對方的不滿甚至還會有一種狀況是他的軍階比較高但他領的薪資比較少那請問呢部長要怎麼解決這種狀況以及我剛剛提的這些加級有沒有可能就是說數字多少我覺得呢這個是交由國防部討論的但是完全沒有加級這件事情是會讓這些人喊醒的\n跟委員報告第一點我們本來加擠的項目本來就有20我了解有20幾種的加擠並不是說所有的這些都沒有加擠我們要新增任何的加擠要\n有很多的考量的因素因為不是說今天我們增加了戰隊部隊加緊然後其他人也說那我也要加緊對啊 可是大家就會說那我後勤不重要嗎我幕僚不重要 威保不重要嗎招募不重要嗎我平常我漢光的時候都跟大家一起在努力啊那為什麼就只有他們有加我們沒有加呢\n我們也沒有說我們一定要加很多但是這次國防部在這整次的重大調整薪資案裡面加擠案裡面你們是不是都不重視我們這是我們聽到非常非常多的基層官兵在質疑國防部的事情而且它造成了很多就是呢戰鬥部隊然後呢跟這個一些比如說後勤幕僚等等的一些紛爭那這樣子完全不利於團結我們的軍心啊\n跟委員報告 你有看到我們志願役的加級有那志願役加級就是適用於全體的人員而且我們這個在做志願役加級的時候我們還特別照顧基層的官兵所以如果要這樣子 那降級也可以說那我的志願役加級為什麼只剩三千塊錢\n那所以我想我們始終會有一條線這條線就是在於說我們要維持住我們的優質的國軍人才所以那後勤維保幕僚他們因為戰鬥部隊有額外再加嘛除了志願役之外額外再加嘛那他們就問說那所以後勤維保幕僚他們沒有戰鬥部隊的人員據我們的了解已經佔比例超過百分之五十幾到\n那另外50%的人他就會覺得你們都不關心他們嗎沒有我剛剛也講過了我們還有其他的很多種的加級我這本來就知道啊但問題是說新增的部分因為你新增你說志願役的部分他三個都有嘛那但是問題是說你針對戰鬥部隊你還額外50%的人對不對你額外你給他加級而且加級比較多嘛那這些我現在列出來這些是完全沒有在網上做加級嘛\n所以它造成一個問題你們真的要去想一想而且你們要去基層問一下這個軍人就是說他們現在有出現就是大家互看不順眼的狀況就覺得為什麼你有啊我沒有是不是國是不是國防部長都不重視我們尤其在後勤這個部分其實討論跟議論私下是非常多的\n所以这是部长要给这些基层的国军交代的问题这个我是把我们所收到的这些名义来跟部长去做反应因为非常非常多我们也随时会注意这一点不过跟委员报告过去即使我们没有挑战战斗部的价值也有二十几种价值那如果每一个人都互相来比较的话我知道但他就是会互相比较嘛哪有人公司里面薪水不互相比较的呢那国防部的立场就是要有一个整体的思维\n是整體的思維在裡面比如說你可能覺得這一些戰鬥部隊他比較辛苦所以你給他加了比較多的那可能呢他們在後續的像後勤幕僚等等的這一些沒有加目前沒有增加加給的部分那你也可以加少一點啊這是誠意的問題啊\n就是這次整個大規模的加急的時候你完全忽視了他們導致他們心理不平衡的問題所以布朗沒關係我只想告訴你說我現在是把基層軍官基層士兵他們的這個反應給我們的陳情反應給你因為人數非常多所以我們希望國防部可以回去再聽一聽基層的意見再想一想加急的錢多還是少我在這裡完全尊重國防部的決定\n但是當大家都在新增的時候那這一群人他完全沒有被新增到那對於整體國軍的這個氣勢跟團結來說呢是有不利的狀況的以上說明謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.429 --> 00:08.973\n謝謝主席我們先請外交部政次然後我們那個政風處然後還有國安局副局長好嗎委員好我想問一下那個副局長關於和人節是共諜這件事情你們是什麼時候掌握的啊請問委員是要問副局長還是要問副局長副局長國安會\n\n00:27.262 --> 00:49.139\n這個案件國安局是有掌握那有這個情報以後我們交給那個司法警察檢調單位去做後續那個調查的所以我的意思是說你們是提前掌握的是嗎提前多提前在事件在4月10號然後收網的多久以前掌握的\n\n00:51.411 --> 01:05.108\n這個時間我相關的細節是不是我這裡就不方便在這邊來說明因為我在4月8號的時候其實就提出了和人節這個外交部裡面的過去的和人節裡面他是有涉及到相關共諜的這個案子\n\n01:06.610 --> 01:28.649\n但是當時呢國安局是死不承認只把焦點放在呢可能我物質的照片上面但是何人傑他卻有其人而且他的成績還相當的高可能他所洩露跟販賣給中共的這個機密是大於我們所想所以當下我們在質詢的時候我覺得國安局就用了一個方式好像就草草帶過\n\n01:29.750 --> 01:54.655\n那如果今天不是我提出了就是說為什麼黃曲榮也就是他的上線已經被公佈出來了他第一條線已經全部公開出來了但就是第二條線裡面的何仁傑毫無動作那這個事件或許就不了了之所以你們國安局如果提早掌握的話那完全沒有動作這是我想不能接受的那再來我要問一下政風處外交部的政風處政風處的部分這個\n\n01:59.196 --> 02:26.858\n我想問一下你們現在在調查的部分啊正在調查嘛我問過很多次了正在進行調查你們是什麼時候開始進行調查的報告委員我們是在4月12號是禮拜六的週末我們接到部長辦公室主任的指示4月12號開始調查的嘛那調查的方向呢有包含前外交部長吳釗燮嗎\n\n02:28.559 --> 02:42.815\n因為他是裡面的關鍵人物啊報告委員因為是這樣子喔因為在總統府他們也有政風室所以這個部分呢我們必須要先不對不對因為他當時是外交部長不是國安會秘書長\n\n02:43.596 --> 03:06.889\n所以當時何仁傑跟吳釗燮在販售機密資料給中共的時候是吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候所以你們如果要政風要調查的話當然是以當時的處境而不是現在所以吳釗燮是當時的外交部長也是何仁傑的重要關係人\n\n03:07.529 --> 03:11.993\n那政風處不打算針對當時的外交部長吳釗燮進行調查嗎政風處沒有這樣子的一個打算嗎報告委員因為吳秘書長現職是國安會秘書長所以總統府本身就有政風事但是他不是在那個時候啊國安會他調查國安會的但我現在問你\n\n03:30.708 --> 03:40.258\n我問你的是外交部嘛國安會今天又沒有來我問你的是外交部嘛因為他有在國安會秘書長任內也有在外交部任內啊你都說你啟動政風調查了卻不去查核當時的外交部長也就是這個和人節的重要關係人\n\n03:48.547 --> 04:03.557\n當時的外交部長騰寫相關行程資料甚至有可能有把我們的直接跟駐美代表處這邊相關的文件有看過經手過公文販賣出去你不知道他拍了多少東西結果我們的政風處在調查的時候不去調查當時的外交部長吳釗燮嗎最後問你一次不去調查\n\n04:10.643 --> 04:13.884\n我叫這個很簡單嘛就是這個政風調查裡面你要調查哪一些人嘛我們調查的人員主要就是當時曾經在部長紀要室跟何仁傑共事過的同事那對啊請問吳釗燮是不是他同事\n\n04:30.979 --> 04:43.465\n是的但是是的那為什麼我們覺得他偏偏他可以不用受到調查你都說是了啊不是嘛所以他現在當高官你就可以不用政風就可以不用查他那我們要你們政風做什麼他當時的時間點就是外交部長我們在追溯的政風就是這個部分跟他現在的職位是沒有關聯性的啊\n\n04:52.861 --> 05:19.727\n報告委員,那麼有關於這個相關的這個案件事實上擁有完整的調查權的不太...我現在只問政鋒而已嘛我只是問政鋒而已,你不用上來回答嘛是他們自己說他們正在進行調查的所以我才想知道你調查的對象有哪一些人,有沒有包括前外交部長那他剛剛也已經很清楚告訴我們說沒有所以我已經知道了,謝謝你們幾位可以先回那我們請那個顧立雄部長,謝謝\n\n05:29.432 --> 05:34.495\n是徐委員好部長好國軍薪資在千呼萬喚當中終於有提高志願役的加級分別有不同的數字戰鬥部隊的加級也有但是舊媒體在3月18號的國防部業務的報告說明裡面本來要送的是五項加級也就是志願役、戰鬥部隊、戰航管、電程跟網路戰\n\n05:54.767 --> 06:10.320\n但是呢現在突然被分開了就3月21號的時候被分開成一波兩波那為什麼要突然分開成兩波呢它的具體原因是什麼我們送行政院的時候本來就是第一波是送志願役跟戰鬥部隊那戰艦館跟電偵網路站現在在人種審議當中\n\n06:14.764 --> 06:26.251\nOK所以大概有什麼時候會在第二波的部分會有結果出來我們希望盡快希望盡快應該盡快應該現在還有一些呃呃呈戶的說明我想應該會盡快會出來好那請問第二波呃這個發了之後請問第三波會有嗎還是這個五項就是我們現在目前可能會有的加級之後都沒有沒有第三波有第三波嗎\n\n06:42.468 --> 06:56.562\n上次委員也有決議說叫我們要檢討上次是反情報的這個部分那我想我們其他都還會再研議但是還沒有一個定案\n\n06:57.583 --> 07:16.426\n那我要告诉大家的就是说在这个我们提出来这个加薪方案之后当然我是支持给予加急的但后来发现一个问题就是因为只针对志愿役跟战斗部队还有第二波可能会有的这三项就是战航管电阵跟网路战\n\n07:16.866 --> 07:41.951\n但是呢這反而造成了反而造成了很多基層官兵的陳情因為呢還有很多他們現在是辛苦程度也很高但是呢他們卻沒有被加級的那比方說好了我們給大家看一下像是後勤維保幕僚文官招募跟氣象相關他們都完全沒有任何加級的提升那我的想法是不見得每一個\n\n07:42.851 --> 07:55.599\n每一個這個職位他的加級都要很高不見得因為呢比方說像可能有一些單位的他的邊線比本來就比較高那可能他我們希望可以在戰鬥部隊這個邊線比較低的地方能夠去加強可是當我們這一次進行了一個全部全面性的這個加級的時候卻漏掉了後勤維保幕僚文官招募跟氣象等等等相關的這些加級的時候會讓他們覺得國防部不重視他們\n\n08:11.368 --> 08:38.519\n甚至使得我們在很多的這個軍人之間互相產生比較互相產生對對方的不滿甚至還會有一種狀況是他的軍階比較高但他領的薪資比較少那請問呢部長要怎麼解決這種狀況以及我剛剛提的這些加級有沒有可能就是說數字多少我覺得呢這個是交由國防部討論的但是完全沒有加級這件事情是會讓這些人喊醒的\n\n08:39.789 --> 08:52.416\n跟委員報告第一點我們本來加擠的項目本來就有20我了解有20幾種的加擠並不是說所有的這些都沒有加擠我們要新增任何的加擠要\n\n09:00.420 --> 09:20.465\n有很多的考量的因素因為不是說今天我們增加了戰隊部隊加緊然後其他人也說那我也要加緊對啊可是大家就會說那我後勤不重要嗎我幕僚不重要威保不重要嗎招募不重要嗎我平常我漢光的時候都跟大家一起在努力啊那為什麼就只有他們有加我們沒有加呢\n\n09:20.805 --> 09:46.681\n我們也沒有說我們一定要加很多但是這次國防部在這整次的重大調整薪資案裡面加擠案裡面你們是不是都不重視我們這是我們聽到非常非常多的基層官兵在質疑國防部的事情而且它造成了很多就是呢戰鬥部隊然後呢跟這個一些比如說後勤幕僚等等的一些紛爭那這樣子完全不利於團結我們的軍心啊\n\n09:47.783 --> 10:09.368\n跟委員報告你有看到我們志願役的加級有那志願役加級就是適用於全體的人員而且我們這個在做志願役加級的時候我們還特別照顧基層的官兵所以如果要這樣子那降級也可以說那我的志願役加級為什麼只剩三千塊錢\n\n10:10.526 --> 10:35.031\n那所以我想我們始終會有一條線這條線就是在於說我們要維持住我們的優質的國軍人才所以那後勤維保幕僚他們因為戰鬥部隊有額外再加嘛除了志願役之外額外再加嘛那他們就問說那所以後勤維保幕僚他們沒有戰鬥部隊的人員據我們的了解已經佔比例超過百分之五十幾到\n\n10:35.931 --> 11:03.245\n那另外50%的人他就會覺得你們都不關心他們嗎沒有我剛剛也講過了我們還有其他的很多種的加級我這本來就知道啊但問題是說新增的部分因為你新增你說志願役的部分他三個都有嘛那但是問題是說你針對戰鬥部隊你還額外50%的人對不對你額外你給他加級而且加級比較多嘛那這些我現在列出來這些是完全沒有在網上做加級嘛\n\n11:04.065 --> 11:23.213\n所以它造成一個問題你們真的要去想一想而且你們要去基層問一下這個軍人就是說他們現在有出現就是大家互看不順眼的狀況就覺得為什麼你有啊我沒有是不是國是不是國防部長都不重視我們尤其在後勤這個部分其實討論跟議論私下是非常多的\n\n11:23.573 --> 11:51.433\n所以这是部长要给这些基层的国军交代的问题这个我是把我们所收到的这些名义来跟部长去做反应因为非常非常多我们也随时会注意这一点不过跟委员报告过去即使我们没有挑战战斗部的价值也有二十几种价值那如果每一个人都互相来比较的话我知道但他就是会互相比较嘛哪有人公司里面薪水不互相比较的呢那国防部的立场就是要有一个整体的思维\n\n11:51.613 --> 12:06.202\n是整體的思維在裡面比如說你可能覺得這一些戰鬥部隊他比較辛苦所以你給他加了比較多的那可能呢他們在後續的像後勤幕僚等等的這一些沒有加目前沒有增加加給的部分那你也可以加少一點啊這是誠意的問題啊\n\n12:08.243 --> 12:19.432\n就是這次整個大規模的加急的時候你完全忽視了他們導致他們心理不平衡的問題所以布朗沒關係我只想告訴你說我現在是把基層軍官基層士兵他們的這個反應給我們的陳情反應給你因為人數非常多所以我們希望國防部可以回去再聽一聽基層的意見再想一想加急的錢多還是少我在這裡完全尊重國防部的決定\n\n12:36.525 --> 12:42.335\n但是當大家都在新增的時候那這一群人他完全沒有被新增到那對於整體國軍的這個氣勢跟團結來說呢是有不利的狀況的以上說明謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.429,"end":8.973,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請外交部政次然後我們那個政風處然後還有國安局副局長好嗎委員好我想問一下那個副局長關於和人節是共諜這件事情你們是什麼時候掌握的啊請問委員是要問副局長還是要問副局長副局長國安會"},{"start":27.262,"end":49.139,"text":"這個案件 國安局是有掌握那有這個情報以後我們交給那個司法警察檢調單位去做後續那個調查的所以我的意思是說你們是提前掌握的是嗎提前 多提前在事件 在4月10號 然後收網的多久以前掌握的"},{"start":51.411,"end":65.108,"text":"這個時間我相關的細節是不是我這裡就不方便在這邊來說明因為我在4月8號的時候其實就提出了和人節這個外交部裡面的過去的和人節裡面他是有涉及到相關共諜的這個案子"},{"start":66.61,"end":88.649,"text":"但是當時呢國安局是死不承認只把焦點放在呢可能我物質的照片上面但是何人傑他卻有其人而且他的成績還相當的高可能他所洩露跟販賣給中共的這個機密是大於我們所想所以當下我們在質詢的時候我覺得國安局就用了一個方式好像就草草帶過"},{"start":89.75,"end":114.655,"text":"那如果今天不是我提出了就是說為什麼黃曲榮也就是他的上線已經被公佈出來了他第一條線已經全部公開出來了但就是第二條線裡面的何仁傑毫無動作那這個事件或許就不了了之所以你們國安局如果提早掌握的話那完全沒有動作這是我想不能接受的那再來我要問一下政風處外交部的政風處政風處的部分這個"},{"start":119.196,"end":146.858,"text":"我想問一下你們現在在調查的部分啊正在調查嘛我問過很多次了正在進行調查你們是什麼時候開始進行調查的報告委員我們是在4月12號是禮拜六的週末我們接到部長辦公室主任的指示4月12號開始調查的嘛那調查的方向呢有包含前外交部長吳釗燮嗎"},{"start":148.559,"end":162.815,"text":"因為他是裡面的關鍵人物啊報告委員因為是這樣子喔因為在總統府他們也有政風室所以這個部分呢我們必須要先不對不對因為他當時是外交部長不是國安會秘書長"},{"start":163.596,"end":186.889,"text":"所以當時何仁傑跟吳釗燮在販售機密資料給中共的時候是吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候所以你們如果要政風要調查的話當然是以當時的處境而不是現在所以吳釗燮是當時的外交部長也是何仁傑的重要關係人"},{"start":187.529,"end":191.993,"text":"那政風處不打算針對當時的外交部長吳釗燮進行調查嗎政風處沒有這樣子的一個打算嗎報告委員因為吳秘書長現職是國安會秘書長所以總統府本身就有政風事但是他不是在那個時候啊國安會他調查國安會的但我現在問你"},{"start":210.708,"end":220.258,"text":"我問你的是外交部嘛國安會今天又沒有來我問你的是外交部嘛因為他有在國安會秘書長任內也有在外交部任內啊你都說你啟動政風調查了卻不去查核當時的外交部長也就是這個和人節的重要關係人"},{"start":228.547,"end":243.557,"text":"當時的外交部長騰寫相關行程資料甚至有可能有把我們的直接跟駐美代表處這邊相關的文件有看過經手過公文販賣出去你不知道他拍了多少東西結果我們的政風處在調查的時候不去調查當時的外交部長吳釗燮嗎最後問你一次不去調查"},{"start":250.643,"end":253.884,"text":"我叫這個很簡單嘛就是這個政風調查裡面你要調查哪一些人嘛我們調查的人員主要就是當時曾經在部長紀要室跟何仁傑共事過的同事那對啊 請問吳釗燮是不是他同事"},{"start":270.979,"end":283.465,"text":"是的 但是是的 那為什麼我們覺得他偏偏他可以不用受到調查你都說是了啊不是嘛 所以他現在當高官你就可以不用 政風就可以不用查他那我們要你們政風做什麼他當時的時間點就是外交部長我們在追溯的政風就是這個部分跟他現在的職位是沒有關聯性的啊"},{"start":292.861,"end":319.727,"text":"報告委員,那麼有關於這個相關的這個案件事實上擁有完整的調查權的不太...我現在只問政鋒而已嘛我只是問政鋒而已,你不用上來回答嘛是他們自己說他們正在進行調查的所以我才想知道你調查的對象有哪一些人,有沒有包括前外交部長那他剛剛也已經很清楚告訴我們說沒有所以我已經知道了,謝謝你們幾位可以先回那我們請那個顧立雄部長,謝謝"},{"start":329.432,"end":334.495,"text":"是 徐委員好部長好 國軍薪資在千呼萬喚當中終於有提高志願役的加級分別有不同的數字戰鬥部隊的加級也有但是舊媒體在3月18號的國防部業務的報告說明裡面本來要送的是五項加級也就是志願役、戰鬥部隊、戰航管、電程跟網路戰"},{"start":354.767,"end":370.32,"text":"但是呢現在突然被分開了就3月21號的時候被分開成一波兩波那為什麼要突然分開成兩波呢它的具體原因是什麼我們送行政院的時候本來就是第一波是送志願役跟戰鬥部隊那戰艦館跟電偵網路站現在在人種審議當中"},{"start":374.764,"end":386.251,"text":"OK 所以大概有什麼時候會在第二波的部分會有結果出來我們希望盡快希望盡快應該盡快應該現在還有一些呃呃呈戶的說明我想應該會盡快會出來好那請問第二波呃這個發了之後請問第三波會有嗎還是這個五項就是我們現在目前可能會有的加級之後都沒有沒有第三波有第三波嗎"},{"start":402.468,"end":416.562,"text":"上次委員也有決議說叫我們要檢討上次是反情報的這個部分那我想我們其他都還會再研議但是還沒有一個定案"},{"start":417.583,"end":436.426,"text":"那我要告诉大家的就是说在这个我们提出来这个加薪方案之后当然我是支持给予加急的但后来发现一个问题就是因为只针对志愿役跟战斗部队还有第二波可能会有的这三项就是战航管电阵跟网路战"},{"start":436.866,"end":461.951,"text":"但是呢這反而造成了反而造成了很多基層官兵的陳情因為呢還有很多他們現在是辛苦程度也很高但是呢他們卻沒有被加級的那比方說好了我們給大家看一下像是後勤維保幕僚文官招募跟氣象相關他們都完全沒有任何加級的提升那我的想法是不見得每一個"},{"start":462.851,"end":475.599,"text":"每一個這個職位他的加級都要很高不見得因為呢比方說像可能有一些單位的他的邊線比本來就比較高那可能他我們希望可以在戰鬥部隊這個邊線比較低的地方能夠去加強可是當我們這一次進行了一個全部全面性的這個加級的時候卻漏掉了後勤 維保 幕僚 文官招募跟氣象等等等相關的這些加級的時候會讓他們覺得國防部不重視他們"},{"start":491.368,"end":518.519,"text":"甚至使得我們在很多的這個軍人之間互相產生比較互相產生對對方的不滿甚至還會有一種狀況是他的軍階比較高但他領的薪資比較少那請問呢部長要怎麼解決這種狀況以及我剛剛提的這些加級有沒有可能就是說數字多少我覺得呢這個是交由國防部討論的但是完全沒有加級這件事情是會讓這些人喊醒的"},{"start":519.789,"end":532.416,"text":"跟委員報告第一點我們本來加擠的項目本來就有20我了解有20幾種的加擠並不是說所有的這些都沒有加擠我們要新增任何的加擠要"},{"start":540.42,"end":560.465,"text":"有很多的考量的因素因為不是說今天我們增加了戰隊部隊加緊然後其他人也說那我也要加緊對啊 可是大家就會說那我後勤不重要嗎我幕僚不重要 威保不重要嗎招募不重要嗎我平常我漢光的時候都跟大家一起在努力啊那為什麼就只有他們有加我們沒有加呢"},{"start":560.805,"end":586.681,"text":"我們也沒有說我們一定要加很多但是這次國防部在這整次的重大調整薪資案裡面加擠案裡面你們是不是都不重視我們這是我們聽到非常非常多的基層官兵在質疑國防部的事情而且它造成了很多就是呢戰鬥部隊然後呢跟這個一些比如說後勤幕僚等等的一些紛爭那這樣子完全不利於團結我們的軍心啊"},{"start":587.783,"end":609.368,"text":"跟委員報告 你有看到我們志願役的加級有那志願役加級就是適用於全體的人員而且我們這個在做志願役加級的時候我們還特別照顧基層的官兵所以如果要這樣子 那降級也可以說那我的志願役加級為什麼只剩三千塊錢"},{"start":610.526,"end":635.031,"text":"那所以我想我們始終會有一條線這條線就是在於說我們要維持住我們的優質的國軍人才所以那後勤維保幕僚他們因為戰鬥部隊有額外再加嘛除了志願役之外額外再加嘛那他們就問說那所以後勤維保幕僚他們沒有戰鬥部隊的人員據我們的了解已經佔比例超過百分之五十幾到"},{"start":635.931,"end":663.245,"text":"那另外50%的人他就會覺得你們都不關心他們嗎沒有我剛剛也講過了我們還有其他的很多種的加級我這本來就知道啊但問題是說新增的部分因為你新增你說志願役的部分他三個都有嘛那但是問題是說你針對戰鬥部隊你還額外50%的人對不對你額外你給他加級而且加級比較多嘛那這些我現在列出來這些是完全沒有在網上做加級嘛"},{"start":664.065,"end":683.213,"text":"所以它造成一個問題你們真的要去想一想而且你們要去基層問一下這個軍人就是說他們現在有出現就是大家互看不順眼的狀況就覺得為什麼你有啊我沒有是不是國是不是國防部長都不重視我們尤其在後勤這個部分其實討論跟議論私下是非常多的"},{"start":683.573,"end":711.433,"text":"所以这是部长要给这些基层的国军交代的问题这个我是把我们所收到的这些名义来跟部长去做反应因为非常非常多我们也随时会注意这一点不过跟委员报告过去即使我们没有挑战战斗部的价值也有二十几种价值那如果每一个人都互相来比较的话我知道但他就是会互相比较嘛哪有人公司里面薪水不互相比较的呢那国防部的立场就是要有一个整体的思维"},{"start":711.613,"end":726.202,"text":"是整體的思維在裡面比如說你可能覺得這一些戰鬥部隊他比較辛苦所以你給他加了比較多的那可能呢他們在後續的像後勤幕僚等等的這一些沒有加目前沒有增加加給的部分那你也可以加少一點啊這是誠意的問題啊"},{"start":728.243,"end":739.432,"text":"就是這次整個大規模的加急的時候你完全忽視了他們導致他們心理不平衡的問題所以布朗沒關係我只想告訴你說我現在是把基層軍官基層士兵他們的這個反應給我們的陳情反應給你因為人數非常多所以我們希望國防部可以回去再聽一聽基層的意見再想一想加急的錢多還是少我在這裡完全尊重國防部的決定"},{"start":756.525,"end":762.335,"text":"但是當大家都在新增的時候那這一群人他完全沒有被新增到那對於整體國軍的這個氣勢跟團結來說呢是有不利的狀況的以上說明謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時45分）謝謝主席。先請外交部政次、政風處和國安局副局長，好嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問副局長，關於何仁傑是共諜這件事情，你們是什麼時候掌握的？"],["陳次長明祺：請問委員是要問副局長還是要問……"],["徐委員巧芯：國安會副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：這個案件國安局是有掌握，獲得這個情報以後，我們是交給司法警察，由檢調單位去做後續的調查偵辦。"],["徐委員巧芯：本席的意思是說，你們有提前掌握，是嗎？提前多久？4月10日收網，你們是多久以前掌握？"],["黃副局長明昭：關於時間點等相關細節，不方便在這邊說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：其實本席4月8日就提出了，外交部的何仁傑涉及共諜的案子，但是當時國安局死不承認，只把焦點放在本席可能誤植的照片上面。但是何仁傑確有其人，而且他的層級還相當高，他洩漏和販賣給中共的機密，可能大於我們所想。我們質詢的時候，本席覺得國安局草草帶過，如果今天不是本席提出這個問題，就是為什麼黃取榮已經被公布，這是何仁傑的上線，他的第一條線已經全部公開，但是對第二條線的何仁傑卻毫無動作，或許這個事件會不了了之，如果國安局有提早掌握，可是卻完全沒有動作，這是本席不能接受的。","再來，本席要問一下外交部的政風處，因為你們現在正在調查嘛！本席問過很多次了，你們是什麼時候開始進行調查？"],["韓公使健豪：我們是在4月12日（禮拜六）週末接到部長辦公室主任的指示。"],["徐委員巧芯：4月12日開始調查，調查的方向呢？有包含前外交部長吳釗燮嗎？因為他是這裡面的關鍵人物。"],["韓公使健豪：因為總統府也有政風室，所以這個部分我們必須要先……"],["徐委員巧芯：不對！不對！他當時是外交部長，不是國安會秘書長。"],["韓公使健豪：我知道，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：何仁傑販售機密資料給中共，是在吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候，所以如果政風要調查的話，當然是針對當時的處境，而不是現在。吳釗燮是當時的外交部長，也是何仁傑的重要關係人，政風處不打算針對當時的外交部長吳釗燮進行調查嗎？政風處沒有這樣的打算嗎？"],["韓公使健豪：因為吳秘書長現職是國安會秘書長，總統府本身就有政風室。"],["徐委員巧芯：但這件事不是在他擔任國安會秘書長的時候發生的啊！國安會調查國安會的部分，本席現在問的是外交部的部分，國安會今天又沒有來備詢。因為他有擔任國安會秘書長，也有擔任外交部部長啊！你都說你們啟動政風調查了，卻不去查核當時的外交部長，也就是何仁傑的重要關係人。","他幫當時的外交部長謄寫相關行程資料，甚至有可能看過我們和駐美代表處的相關文件，或是把他經手過的公文販賣出去，你們不知道他拍了多少東西，結果政風處調查的時候，不用去調查當時的外交部長吳釗燮嗎？最後問你一次。"],["韓公使健豪：不是，因為這個部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席覺得這個問題很簡單嘛！就是政風進行調查時，你們要調查哪些人？"],["韓公使健豪：我們調查的人員，主要就是當時曾經在部長機要室和何仁傑共事過的同事。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問吳釗燮是不是他的同事？"],["韓公使健豪：是的。但是因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：是的！為什麼偏偏他可以不用受到調查？你都說是啊！"],["韓公使健豪：因為吳釗燮現在是國安會秘書長，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！所以他現在擔任高官，政風就可以不用查他？那要政風做什麼？"],["韓公使健豪：不是。是……"],["徐委員巧芯：當時的時間點，他就是外交部長，我們要追溯的政風調查就是這個部分，和他現在的職位沒有關聯性啊！"],["陳次長明祺：有關這個案件，事實上擁有完整調查權的並不是政風。"],["徐委員巧芯：本席現在只問政風的部分而已嘛！"],["陳次長明祺：我們政風調查一定……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席是問政風，你不用上來回答。是他們自己說正在進行調查，所以本席才想知道調查的對象有哪些人，有沒有包括前外交部長？他剛剛也很清楚的告訴我們，沒有，所以本席已經知道了。謝謝幾位，你們可以先回座。請顧立雄部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。國軍薪資在千呼萬喚當中，終於提高志願役的加給，分別是不同的數字，戰鬥部隊也有加給。但是有媒體報導，3月18日的國防部業務報告說明本來是要列5項加給，也就是志願役、戰鬥部隊、戰航管、電偵和網路戰，但是3月21日突然分成第一波、第二波，為什麼突然分成兩波呢？具體原因是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我們送行政院的時候，本來就是第一波送志願役和戰鬥部隊，戰航管和電偵、網路戰，現在在人總審議當中。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。所以什麼時候第二波的部分會有結果？"],["顧部長立雄：我們希望儘快。現在還要做一些呈覆、說明，應該會儘快公布。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問第二波發布之後，會有第三波嗎？還是說這5項就是現在可能會有的加給，之後都沒有了？也沒有第三波。有第三波嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：上次委員也有決議要求我們檢討，就是針對反情報的部分。其他部分還會再研議，還沒有定案。"],["徐委員巧芯：本席要告訴大家的是，在我們提出加薪方案之後，當然，本席支持給予加給，但後來有發現一個問題，因為只針對志願役和戰鬥部隊，還有第二波可能會有的這三項，就是戰航管、電偵和網路戰，結果反而收到很多基層官兵陳情，因為還有很多單位的辛苦程度也很高，但是卻沒有加給，比方後勤、維保、幕僚、文官、招募和氣象，他們完全沒有提升任何加給。","本席的想法是，不見得每一個職位的加給都要很高，比方有些單位的編現比本來就比較高，我們希望可以針對戰鬥部隊編現比較低的地方加強。可是我們這次進行全面性的加給時，卻漏掉後勤、維保、幕僚、文官、招募和氣象等相關單位的加給，這樣會讓他們覺得國防部不重視他們，甚至使得軍人之間互相比較，因而產生不滿。","甚至還會有一種狀況，就是他的軍階比較高，但他領的薪資比較少，請問部長要怎麼解決這種狀況？還有本席剛剛提的這些加給，加給的數字多寡交由國防部討論，但是完全沒有加給的話，會讓這些人寒心。"],["顧部長立雄：第一點，就我的了解，我們加給的項目本來就有二十幾種，並不是都沒有加給。"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！本席知道，本席說的是新增的加給部分。"],["顧部長立雄：我們要新增任何加給會有很多考量因素，不是今天我們增加戰鬥隊部隊的加給，其他人就說我們也要加給，那……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！可是大家就會說，難道後勤不重要嗎？幕僚、維保、招募不重要嗎？平常或漢光演習的時候都是大家一起努力，為什麼只有他們有加，我們沒有加呢？我們也沒有要求一定要加很多，但是這次國防部的調整加給案，你們是不是不重視我們？我們聽到非常多基層官兵質疑國防部，而且造成戰鬥部隊和後勤、幕僚等單位的紛爭，這樣完全不利於團結我們的軍心。"],["顧部長立雄：你有看到志願役加給這個部分，志願役加給就適用於全體人員。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，但因為你是不同的……"],["顧部長立雄：而且我們在做志願役加給的時候，還特別照顧基層官兵，如果是這樣，將級也可以說為什麼我的志願役加給只有增加3,000元？所以我們始終有一條線，這條線就是要維持優質的國軍人才，這一條線……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以後勤、維保、幕僚呢？因為戰鬥部隊除了志願役加給之外，還有額外再加嘛！那他們就問了，為什麼後勤、維保、幕僚沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：戰鬥部隊的人員，據我們了解占比超過百分之五十幾到百方之六十幾。"],["徐委員巧芯：另外50%的人就會覺得你們都不關心他們嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。我剛剛也說過了，我們還有很多種加給，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席知道啊！但問題是新增的部分，因為志願役的部分是三個都有嘛！但問題是針對戰鬥部隊這50%的人，你們還額外給他加給，而且加給比較多嘛！本席現在列出來的這些就是完全沒有提高加給，所以會造成不公平的問題。","你們真的要去想一想，而且你們要去問一下基層軍人，因為現在出現大家互看不順眼的狀況，為什麼你有，但是我沒有？是不是國防部長不重視我們？尤其是後勤這個部分，其實私下的討論和議論是非常多的，部長要給這些基層國軍交代。本席是把收到的民意向部長反映，因為這樣的意見非常多。"],["顧部長立雄：我們也會隨時注意這一點。不過，過去即使我們沒有調整戰鬥部隊的加給，其實也有二十幾種加給，如果每一個人都互相比較的話，那……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席知道啊！但他就是會互相比較嘛！哪有公司裡面的人不會互相比較薪水的呢？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部的立場就是要有一個整體的思維。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。比如你們覺得戰鬥部隊可能比較辛苦，所以加給比較多，但後續像後勤、幕僚等目前沒有增加加給的部分，其實你們也可以加少一點啊！這是誠意的問題，這次大規模提升加給，你們卻完全忽視他們，導致他們心理不平衡。所以部長，沒關係，本席只是想反映基層軍士官兵的意見，把他們向我們陳情的內容反映給你。","因為人數非常多，所以我們希望國防部可以回去再聽聽基層的意見，再想一想，加給的錢多或少，本席完全尊重國防部的決定，但是當大家都增加的時候，這群人完全沒有增加，這對整體國軍的氣勢和團結來說是不利的。以上說明，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。","接下來由李坤城委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}}