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\"start\": 611.657, \"end\": 612.098, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 612.098, \"end\": 612.438, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 612.438, \"end\": 612.638, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 612.638, \"end\": 612.738, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 612.738, \"end\": 613.078, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 613.078, \"end\": 613.098, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:01,950\n其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的這些修正條文其實大家的想法博外乎就是要針對這些疑難雜症然後做出一些調整嘛\n\n2\n00:00:27,298 --> 00:00:30,150\n那其實本期看大部分的法條大部分都是增加罰則嘛\n\n3\n00:00:31,175 --> 00:00:59,090\n那當然在剛剛討論的過程中有很多人提到比如說叫法規禁核的問題比如說譯文的票卷體育的票卷現在有專法當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提嘛大家就是希望要打擊黃牛初衷是如此所以從各個角度去提案那當然在這段時間的過程中這個體育的相關的條例過關了譯文相關的條例過關了那社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去我覺得有討論空間大家就可以思考一下會不會有法規打架的問題如果會\n\n4\n00:01:00,451 --> 00:01:21,099\n條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整但是我想剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容裡面其實有提到其實社會秩序維護法就是不破網嘛以前大家都是基本上都是交給這個法條來處理但是隨著有越來越多的這個專法處理比如說剛剛有提到蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對跟騷法出來之後也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛\n\n5\n00:01:21,539 --> 00:01:38,613\n他還是有處理剩下來樣態的叫補破網的這樣相關的一個功能這我想部長剛剛也不會反對因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說即便跟騷法上路之後社會法還是有檢舉還是有裁法所以表示這法還是有功能的啦所以我想不管是今天討論噪音討論黃牛票討論跟騷社會秩序違法都還是有這個補破網的功能\n\n6\n00:01:44,218 --> 00:02:05,055\n所以我想在這樣子一個大框架下大家針對法條的內容跟法則來做討論跟補強它怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢所以剛剛有些委員講說我搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義或者是為什麼今天大家要討論這個幹嘛不是這麼簡單的這是我覺得立場非常清楚要來表達一下部長你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎\n\n7\n00:02:07,508 --> 00:02:27,404\n委員你這樣問我怎麼敢回答沒有意義我的意思是說我們在處理這個社會秩序維護法的時候像我們剛剛署長所說因為包山包海所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的一個討論圈那只是說要把它收攏變成說每個條文的討論案或者每個條文的文字上的敘述的話確實有困擾\n\n8\n00:02:29,345 --> 00:02:50,568\n因為不能單純由內政部來處理你看我們今天有四五個部會一起來所以今天我們找了很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛因為我們每一個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的我可以用專法來優先哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來做普破網的功能就來處理我現在來舉例來交通部的代表有請交通部今天有來嘛對不對有謝謝\n\n9\n00:02:58,904 --> 00:03:19,242\n委員好你好那個剛剛有委員講說所有的黃牛票樣態都要立專法來處理那我們講比如說我在旅展買一個這個本來價值是一萬五千塊的一個住宿旅遊套票我在旅展買的時候就打對折對不對可能只要七千五我在那邊買了之後可能買好幾張然後我在網路上賣一萬算不算黃牛票\n\n10\n00:03:22,571 --> 00:03:38,116\n好像算對不對因為我取得的價格跟我賣出的價格我有圖利嘛大概就是黃牛票嘛對不對那比如說郵輪豪華郵輪型的船票同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票低價買高價賣就算嘛對不對那你們交通部要不要立專法\n\n11\n00:03:40,292 --> 00:03:55,321\n我說明一下現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分因為過去有講我現在看了報告裡面鐵路法裡面有講鐵路票券的黃流票已經有規範了對不對但我剛剛講的啊旅宿的餐券或者是什麼郵輪的船票有沒有轉法目前沒有對不對以後會不會有\n\n12\n00:04:01,069 --> 00:04:22,738\n因為剛剛有委員講說你們每個部會都要去立專法這樣是可以的嗎當然技術上可行啦但是我們每件事都要這樣搞那其實是各個部會都會累死嘛所以我才講今天討論修法當然有意義啊因為有些東西樣態嚴重比如說藝文票券體育票券樣態嚴重專門專法處理樣態不嚴重但廣泛情節輕微者設違法處理嘛交通部你同意這樣的說法嗎呃我想我尊重委員會尊重大院委員班沒錯你書面報告也是這樣寫的好謝謝\n\n13\n00:04:31,055 --> 00:04:59,466\n好部長其實就是這樣本席希望今天排這個案子經過詢答的程序之後大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中去把文字做合適的處理跟調整法規進合的部分要給它避免掉不破防的功能要給它保留其實就是這樣那本席要花一點點時間要特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊因為本席是非常關心公立大廈管理條例跟相關的這些功能以實務上來講現在噪音管制法第六條你看這一樣嘛\n\n14\n00:05:00,186 --> 00:05:27,523\n特殊的噪音樣態它會規範在噪音管制法裡面但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的它就必須要歸給這個大鍋飯這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理所以說社會秩序維護法72條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的就是製造噪音、深夜喧嘩、妨害公眾安寧那我想先請內政部警政署這裡可不可以提供一下相關的資訊\n\n15\n00:05:28,864 --> 00:05:42,508\n因為剛剛跟騷的部分有明確的數據但是受違法72條3款請問啦比如說過去一年有開了多少張罰單使用的次數承案的次數相關的數據警政組這邊有資料嗎我目前手頭沒在不過這個很少因為因為他這個\n\n16\n00:05:45,350 --> 00:06:01,660\n我們去大部分都會勸導因為沒有這個儀器沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音是到達什麼程度所以這個的過程要件是沒辦法像那個噪音管制法有儀器的量測的這個狀況所以這個部分的這個績效過程設置法的採訪應該很少你們\n\n17\n00:06:05,134 --> 00:06:17,503\n裁罰的數字以你目前的了解很少沒有沒關係你會後來準備沒有應該沒有啦因為我外勤幹了很久現在這個員警到達現場都是勸導而已都勸導而已都勸導來我現在問第二個問題你們在員警有沒有統計處理這種疑難雜症妨礙公眾安寧的時候你們出勤了幾次\n\n18\n00:06:23,432 --> 00:06:48,574\n應該是算蠻多應該很多次對不對所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間那我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態叫做公寓大廈就是說以前沒有管委會那種鄰居當然是住透天或什麼的當然就是報警處理嘛妨礙公眾安寧就是報警處理你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序違法來做處理不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔就是說管委會你應該有內部先有一套的處理機制\n\n19\n00:06:49,235 --> 00:07:06,270\n不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會來請命啊比如說深夜發生噪音的時候按照現行的規定你要先通報管委會那有保全的比較豪華的服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理那大部分為了省管理費等等\n\n20\n00:07:07,782 --> 00:07:26,560\n就沒有夜間沒有保全那國安會半夜兩點三點還要幫忙處理噪音問題這就間接導致了這個公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事沒有人做的這樣一個狀況那請問針對公寓大廈這一段的這種噪音的處置狀態你們有沒有去思考過內政部也好警政署也好有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡的方式\n\n21\n00:07:27,352 --> 00:07:36,489\n那我想現在如果公益大廈管理處罰條例有成立這些當然有管理會來做一個處理那如果沒有部分目前還是適用設置法的這個狀況報警來做一個處理\n\n22\n00:07:38,783 --> 00:08:05,166\n還是報警來做處理我是希望藉這次的質詢來做討論啦因為我以現行的公益大廈管理條例你要先通報管委會管委會不行你還是通報監管機關我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了就一個噪音案件處理的流程非常的繁雜收證也不容易就會導致最後剛剛署長講的其實這個法有規定但是實際上執行的狀況很少我是覺得希望有一套更明確的標準我以桃園市為例比如說這個是他的分工表\n\n23\n00:08:05,586 --> 00:08:23,532\n哪些用公寓大廈管理條例哪一些用這個噪音管制法他就有明確的這個說法那再來他也有噪音認定表有地方政府各地的實踐有這樣子的一個方式我希望中央不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間但是針對大廈管理的噪音的問題啊\n\n24\n00:08:24,432 --> 00:08:43,409\n如何來做認定如何能夠讓如果不管是噪音管制法公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確好執行的認定方案尤其是可以照顧到我們的公寓大廈相關的這些管委會也好或者是解決社區的疑難雜症這樣可以嗎\n\n25\n00:08:44,946 --> 00:09:14,027\n警政署辛苦了但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的但是我覺得這是一個很重要的問題也是一個民生的問題嘛好不好希望部裡面做一下研擬可以嗎你講的有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制啦但是委員很多說法我都贊成可是有一點我還是要跟我們的我要幫我們的警員講一下話第一個警員到現場去的話幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛\n\n26\n00:09:15,047 --> 00:09:38,582\n不管他是噪音還是吵架還是丟東西而不是說因為你們吵架所以我用噪音管制法來管理因為如果你給警員很多這樣子的一個自由裁量的新政的時候就是像剛我在回應其他委員的說法那後續他有很多訴願跟行政訴訟那這樣子會沒完沒了所以我們的社會秩序委員法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多\n\n27\n00:09:39,162 --> 00:09:53,945\n可能是100件裡面只有一件或是甚至到1000件以上所以要合併的處理不要說馬上就把它放到法條裡面去那這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾因為有法而不行的話不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要求\n\n28\n00:09:54,085 --> 00:10:13,098\n沒關係這就是我講為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因包含法的使用次數還有你的出行次數中間的落差還有問題也是為什麼衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制這是本期今天質詢的重點但法條的內容待會我們在討論的時候大家再各自表示意見看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案好那就感謝部長跟署長的說明謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t1950\t其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的這些修正條文其實大家的想法博外乎就是要針對這些疑難雜症然後做出一些調整嘛\n27298\t30150\t那其實本期看大部分的法條大部分都是增加罰則嘛\n31175\t59090\t那當然在剛剛討論的過程中有很多人提到比如說叫法規禁核的問題比如說譯文的票卷體育的票卷現在有專法當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提嘛大家就是希望要打擊黃牛初衷是如此所以從各個角度去提案那當然在這段時間的過程中這個體育的相關的條例過關了譯文相關的條例過關了那社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去我覺得有討論空間大家就可以思考一下會不會有法規打架的問題如果會\n60451\t81099\t條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整但是我想剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容裡面其實有提到其實社會秩序維護法就是不破網嘛以前大家都是基本上都是交給這個法條來處理但是隨著有越來越多的這個專法處理比如說剛剛有提到蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對跟騷法出來之後也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛\n81539\t98613\t他還是有處理剩下來樣態的叫補破網的這樣相關的一個功能這我想部長剛剛也不會反對因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說即便跟騷法上路之後社會法還是有檢舉還是有裁法所以表示這法還是有功能的啦所以我想不管是今天討論噪音討論黃牛票討論跟騷社會秩序違法都還是有這個補破網的功能\n104218\t125055\t所以我想在這樣子一個大框架下大家針對法條的內容跟法則來做討論跟補強它怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢所以剛剛有些委員講說我搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義或者是為什麼今天大家要討論這個幹嘛不是這麼簡單的這是我覺得立場非常清楚要來表達一下部長你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎\n127508\t147404\t委員你這樣問我怎麼敢回答沒有意義我的意思是說我們在處理這個社會秩序維護法的時候像我們剛剛署長所說因為包山包海所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的一個討論圈那只是說要把它收攏變成說每個條文的討論案或者每個條文的文字上的敘述的話確實有困擾\n149345\t170568\t因為不能單純由內政部來處理你看我們今天有四五個部會一起來所以今天我們找了很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛因為我們每一個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的我可以用專法來優先哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來做普破網的功能就來處理我現在來舉例來交通部的代表有請交通部今天有來嘛對不對有謝謝\n178904\t199242\t委員好你好那個剛剛有委員講說所有的黃牛票樣態都要立專法來處理那我們講比如說我在旅展買一個這個本來價值是一萬五千塊的一個住宿旅遊套票我在旅展買的時候就打對折對不對可能只要七千五我在那邊買了之後可能買好幾張然後我在網路上賣一萬算不算黃牛票\n202571\t218116\t好像算對不對因為我取得的價格跟我賣出的價格我有圖利嘛大概就是黃牛票嘛對不對那比如說郵輪豪華郵輪型的船票同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票低價買高價賣就算嘛對不對那你們交通部要不要立專法\n220292\t235321\t我說明一下現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分因為過去有講我現在看了報告裡面鐵路法裡面有講鐵路票券的黃流票已經有規範了對不對但我剛剛講的啊旅宿的餐券或者是什麼郵輪的船票有沒有轉法目前沒有對不對以後會不會有\n241069\t262738\t因為剛剛有委員講說你們每個部會都要去立專法這樣是可以的嗎當然技術上可行啦但是我們每件事都要這樣搞那其實是各個部會都會累死嘛所以我才講今天討論修法當然有意義啊因為有些東西樣態嚴重比如說藝文票券體育票券樣態嚴重專門專法處理樣態不嚴重但廣泛情節輕微者設違法處理嘛交通部你同意這樣的說法嗎呃我想我尊重委員會尊重大院委員班沒錯你書面報告也是這樣寫的好謝謝\n271055\t299466\t好 部長其實就是這樣本席希望今天排這個案子經過詢答的程序之後大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中去把文字做合適的處理跟調整法規進合的部分要給它避免掉不破防的功能要給它保留其實就是這樣那本席要花一點點時間要特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊因為本席是非常關心公立大廈管理條例跟相關的這些功能以實務上來講現在噪音管制法第六條你看這一樣嘛\n300186\t327523\t特殊的噪音樣態它會規範在噪音管制法裡面但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的它就必須要歸給這個大鍋飯這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理所以說社會秩序維護法72條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的就是製造噪音、深夜喧嘩、妨害公眾安寧那我想先請內政部警政署這裡可不可以提供一下相關的資訊\n328864\t342508\t因為剛剛跟騷的部分有明確的數據但是受違法72條3款請問啦 比如說過去一年有開了多少張罰單使用的次數 承案的次數 相關的數據警政組這邊有資料嗎我目前手頭沒在不過這個很少因為因為他這個\n345350\t361660\t我們去大部分都會勸導因為沒有這個儀器沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音是到達什麼程度所以這個的過程要件是沒辦法像那個噪音管制法有儀器的量測的這個狀況所以這個部分的這個績效過程設置法的採訪應該很少你們\n365134\t377503\t裁罰的數字以你目前的了解很少沒有沒關係你會後來準備沒有 應該沒有啦因為我外勤幹了很久現在這個員警到達現場都是勸導而已都勸導而已都勸導來 我現在問第二個問題你們在員警有沒有統計處理這種疑難雜症妨礙公眾安寧的時候你們出勤了幾次\n383432\t408574\t應該是算蠻多 應該很多次對不對所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間那我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態叫做公寓大廈就是說以前沒有管委會那種鄰居當然是住透天或什麼的當然就是報警處理嘛妨礙公眾安寧就是報警處理你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序違法來做處理不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔就是說管委會你應該有內部先有一套的處理機制\n409235\t426270\t不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會來請命啊比如說深夜發生噪音的時候按照現行的規定你要先通報管委會那有保全的比較豪華的服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理那大部分為了省管理費等等\n427782\t446560\t就沒有 夜間沒有保全那國安會半夜兩點三點還要幫忙處理噪音問題這就間接導致了這個公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事沒有人做的這樣一個狀況那請問針對公寓大廈這一段的這種噪音的處置狀態你們有沒有去思考過內政部也好 警政署也好有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡的方式\n447352\t456489\t那我想現在如果公益大廈管理處罰條例有成立這些當然有管理會來做一個處理那如果沒有部分目前還是適用設置法的這個狀況報警來做一個處理\n458783\t485166\t還是報警來做處理我是希望藉這次的質詢來做討論啦因為我以現行的公益大廈管理條例你要先通報管委會管委會不行你還是通報監管機關我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了就一個噪音案件處理的流程非常的繁雜收證也不容易就會導致最後剛剛署長講的其實這個法有規定但是實際上執行的狀況很少我是覺得希望有一套更明確的標準我以桃園市為例比如說這個是他的分工表\n485586\t503532\t哪些用公寓大廈管理條例哪一些用這個噪音管制法他就有明確的這個說法那再來他也有噪音認定表有地方政府各地的實踐有這樣子的一個方式我希望中央不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間但是針對大廈管理的噪音的問題啊\n504432\t523409\t如何來做認定如何能夠讓如果不管是噪音管制法公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確好執行的認定方案尤其是可以照顧到我們的公寓大廈相關的這些管委會也好或者是解決社區的疑難雜症這樣可以嗎\n524946\t554027\t警政署辛苦了 但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的但是我覺得這是一個很重要的問題 也是一個民生的問題嘛好不好 希望部裡面做一下研擬可以嗎你講的有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制啦但是委員很多說法我都贊成可是有一點我還是要跟我們的我要幫我們的警員講一下話第一個警員到現場去的話幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛\n555047\t578582\t不管他是噪音還是吵架還是丟東西而不是說因為你們吵架所以我用噪音管制法來管理因為如果你給警員很多這樣子的一個自由裁量的新政的時候就是像剛我在回應其他委員的說法那後續他有很多訴願跟行政訴訟那這樣子會沒完沒了所以我們的社會秩序委員法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多\n579162\t593945\t可能是100件裡面只有一件或是甚至到1000件以上所以要合併的處理不要說馬上就把它放到法條裡面去那這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾因為有法而不行的話不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要求\n594085\t613098\t沒關係這就是我講為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因包含法的使用次數還有你的出行次數中間的落差還有問題也是為什麼衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制這是本期今天質詢的重點但法條的內容待會我們在討論的時候大家再各自表示意見看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案好那就感謝部長跟署長的說明謝謝\n","txt":"其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的這些修正條文其實大家的想法博外乎就是要針對這些疑難雜症然後做出一些調整嘛\n那其實本期看大部分的法條大部分都是增加罰則嘛\n那當然在剛剛討論的過程中有很多人提到比如說叫法規禁核的問題比如說譯文的票卷體育的票卷現在有專法當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提嘛大家就是希望要打擊黃牛初衷是如此所以從各個角度去提案那當然在這段時間的過程中這個體育的相關的條例過關了譯文相關的條例過關了那社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去我覺得有討論空間大家就可以思考一下會不會有法規打架的問題如果會\n條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整但是我想剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容裡面其實有提到其實社會秩序維護法就是不破網嘛以前大家都是基本上都是交給這個法條來處理但是隨著有越來越多的這個專法處理比如說剛剛有提到蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對跟騷法出來之後也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛\n他還是有處理剩下來樣態的叫補破網的這樣相關的一個功能這我想部長剛剛也不會反對因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說即便跟騷法上路之後社會法還是有檢舉還是有裁法所以表示這法還是有功能的啦所以我想不管是今天討論噪音討論黃牛票討論跟騷社會秩序違法都還是有這個補破網的功能\n所以我想在這樣子一個大框架下大家針對法條的內容跟法則來做討論跟補強它怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢所以剛剛有些委員講說我搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義或者是為什麼今天大家要討論這個幹嘛不是這麼簡單的這是我覺得立場非常清楚要來表達一下部長你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎\n委員你這樣問我怎麼敢回答沒有意義我的意思是說我們在處理這個社會秩序維護法的時候像我們剛剛署長所說因為包山包海所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的一個討論圈那只是說要把它收攏變成說每個條文的討論案或者每個條文的文字上的敘述的話確實有困擾\n因為不能單純由內政部來處理你看我們今天有四五個部會一起來所以今天我們找了很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛因為我們每一個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的我可以用專法來優先哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來做普破網的功能就來處理我現在來舉例來交通部的代表有請交通部今天有來嘛對不對有謝謝\n委員好你好那個剛剛有委員講說所有的黃牛票樣態都要立專法來處理那我們講比如說我在旅展買一個這個本來價值是一萬五千塊的一個住宿旅遊套票我在旅展買的時候就打對折對不對可能只要七千五我在那邊買了之後可能買好幾張然後我在網路上賣一萬算不算黃牛票\n好像算對不對因為我取得的價格跟我賣出的價格我有圖利嘛大概就是黃牛票嘛對不對那比如說郵輪豪華郵輪型的船票同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票低價買高價賣就算嘛對不對那你們交通部要不要立專法\n我說明一下現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分因為過去有講我現在看了報告裡面鐵路法裡面有講鐵路票券的黃流票已經有規範了對不對但我剛剛講的啊旅宿的餐券或者是什麼郵輪的船票有沒有轉法目前沒有對不對以後會不會有\n因為剛剛有委員講說你們每個部會都要去立專法這樣是可以的嗎當然技術上可行啦但是我們每件事都要這樣搞那其實是各個部會都會累死嘛所以我才講今天討論修法當然有意義啊因為有些東西樣態嚴重比如說藝文票券體育票券樣態嚴重專門專法處理樣態不嚴重但廣泛情節輕微者設違法處理嘛交通部你同意這樣的說法嗎呃我想我尊重委員會尊重大院委員班沒錯你書面報告也是這樣寫的好謝謝\n好 部長其實就是這樣本席希望今天排這個案子經過詢答的程序之後大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中去把文字做合適的處理跟調整法規進合的部分要給它避免掉不破防的功能要給它保留其實就是這樣那本席要花一點點時間要特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊因為本席是非常關心公立大廈管理條例跟相關的這些功能以實務上來講現在噪音管制法第六條你看這一樣嘛\n特殊的噪音樣態它會規範在噪音管制法裡面但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的它就必須要歸給這個大鍋飯這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理所以說社會秩序維護法72條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的就是製造噪音、深夜喧嘩、妨害公眾安寧那我想先請內政部警政署這裡可不可以提供一下相關的資訊\n因為剛剛跟騷的部分有明確的數據但是受違法72條3款請問啦 比如說過去一年有開了多少張罰單使用的次數 承案的次數 相關的數據警政組這邊有資料嗎我目前手頭沒在不過這個很少因為因為他這個\n我們去大部分都會勸導因為沒有這個儀器沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音是到達什麼程度所以這個的過程要件是沒辦法像那個噪音管制法有儀器的量測的這個狀況所以這個部分的這個績效過程設置法的採訪應該很少你們\n裁罰的數字以你目前的了解很少沒有沒關係你會後來準備沒有 應該沒有啦因為我外勤幹了很久現在這個員警到達現場都是勸導而已都勸導而已都勸導來 我現在問第二個問題你們在員警有沒有統計處理這種疑難雜症妨礙公眾安寧的時候你們出勤了幾次\n應該是算蠻多 應該很多次對不對所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間那我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態叫做公寓大廈就是說以前沒有管委會那種鄰居當然是住透天或什麼的當然就是報警處理嘛妨礙公眾安寧就是報警處理你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序違法來做處理不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔就是說管委會你應該有內部先有一套的處理機制\n不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會來請命啊比如說深夜發生噪音的時候按照現行的規定你要先通報管委會那有保全的比較豪華的服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理那大部分為了省管理費等等\n就沒有 夜間沒有保全那國安會半夜兩點三點還要幫忙處理噪音問題這就間接導致了這個公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事沒有人做的這樣一個狀況那請問針對公寓大廈這一段的這種噪音的處置狀態你們有沒有去思考過內政部也好 警政署也好有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡的方式\n那我想現在如果公益大廈管理處罰條例有成立這些當然有管理會來做一個處理那如果沒有部分目前還是適用設置法的這個狀況報警來做一個處理\n還是報警來做處理我是希望藉這次的質詢來做討論啦因為我以現行的公益大廈管理條例你要先通報管委會管委會不行你還是通報監管機關我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了就一個噪音案件處理的流程非常的繁雜收證也不容易就會導致最後剛剛署長講的其實這個法有規定但是實際上執行的狀況很少我是覺得希望有一套更明確的標準我以桃園市為例比如說這個是他的分工表\n哪些用公寓大廈管理條例哪一些用這個噪音管制法他就有明確的這個說法那再來他也有噪音認定表有地方政府各地的實踐有這樣子的一個方式我希望中央不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間但是針對大廈管理的噪音的問題啊\n如何來做認定如何能夠讓如果不管是噪音管制法公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確好執行的認定方案尤其是可以照顧到我們的公寓大廈相關的這些管委會也好或者是解決社區的疑難雜症這樣可以嗎\n警政署辛苦了 但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的但是我覺得這是一個很重要的問題 也是一個民生的問題嘛好不好 希望部裡面做一下研擬可以嗎你講的有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制啦但是委員很多說法我都贊成可是有一點我還是要跟我們的我要幫我們的警員講一下話第一個警員到現場去的話幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛\n不管他是噪音還是吵架還是丟東西而不是說因為你們吵架所以我用噪音管制法來管理因為如果你給警員很多這樣子的一個自由裁量的新政的時候就是像剛我在回應其他委員的說法那後續他有很多訴願跟行政訴訟那這樣子會沒完沒了所以我們的社會秩序委員法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多\n可能是100件裡面只有一件或是甚至到1000件以上所以要合併的處理不要說馬上就把它放到法條裡面去那這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾因為有法而不行的話不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要求\n沒關係這就是我講為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因包含法的使用次數還有你的出行次數中間的落差還有問題也是為什麼衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制這是本期今天質詢的重點但法條的內容待會我們在討論的時候大家再各自表示意見看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案好那就感謝部長跟署長的說明謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:01.950\n其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的這些修正條文其實大家的想法博外乎就是要針對這些疑難雜症然後做出一些調整嘛\n\n00:27.298 --> 00:30.150\n那其實本期看大部分的法條大部分都是增加罰則嘛\n\n00:31.175 --> 00:59.090\n那當然在剛剛討論的過程中有很多人提到比如說叫法規禁核的問題比如說譯文的票卷體育的票卷現在有專法當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提嘛大家就是希望要打擊黃牛初衷是如此所以從各個角度去提案那當然在這段時間的過程中這個體育的相關的條例過關了譯文相關的條例過關了那社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去我覺得有討論空間大家就可以思考一下會不會有法規打架的問題如果會\n\n01:00.451 --> 01:21.099\n條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整但是我想剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容裡面其實有提到其實社會秩序維護法就是不破網嘛以前大家都是基本上都是交給這個法條來處理但是隨著有越來越多的這個專法處理比如說剛剛有提到蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對跟騷法出來之後也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛\n\n01:21.539 --> 01:38.613\n他還是有處理剩下來樣態的叫補破網的這樣相關的一個功能這我想部長剛剛也不會反對因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說即便跟騷法上路之後社會法還是有檢舉還是有裁法所以表示這法還是有功能的啦所以我想不管是今天討論噪音討論黃牛票討論跟騷社會秩序違法都還是有這個補破網的功能\n\n01:44.218 --> 02:05.055\n所以我想在這樣子一個大框架下大家針對法條的內容跟法則來做討論跟補強它怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢所以剛剛有些委員講說我搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義或者是為什麼今天大家要討論這個幹嘛不是這麼簡單的這是我覺得立場非常清楚要來表達一下部長你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎\n\n02:07.508 --> 02:27.404\n委員你這樣問我怎麼敢回答沒有意義我的意思是說我們在處理這個社會秩序維護法的時候像我們剛剛署長所說因為包山包海所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的一個討論圈那只是說要把它收攏變成說每個條文的討論案或者每個條文的文字上的敘述的話確實有困擾\n\n02:29.345 --> 02:50.568\n因為不能單純由內政部來處理你看我們今天有四五個部會一起來所以今天我們找了很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛因為我們每一個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的我可以用專法來優先哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來做普破網的功能就來處理我現在來舉例來交通部的代表有請交通部今天有來嘛對不對有謝謝\n\n02:58.904 --> 03:19.242\n委員好你好那個剛剛有委員講說所有的黃牛票樣態都要立專法來處理那我們講比如說我在旅展買一個這個本來價值是一萬五千塊的一個住宿旅遊套票我在旅展買的時候就打對折對不對可能只要七千五我在那邊買了之後可能買好幾張然後我在網路上賣一萬算不算黃牛票\n\n03:22.571 --> 03:38.116\n好像算對不對因為我取得的價格跟我賣出的價格我有圖利嘛大概就是黃牛票嘛對不對那比如說郵輪豪華郵輪型的船票同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票低價買高價賣就算嘛對不對那你們交通部要不要立專法\n\n03:40.292 --> 03:55.321\n我說明一下現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分因為過去有講我現在看了報告裡面鐵路法裡面有講鐵路票券的黃流票已經有規範了對不對但我剛剛講的啊旅宿的餐券或者是什麼郵輪的船票有沒有轉法目前沒有對不對以後會不會有\n\n04:01.069 --> 04:22.738\n因為剛剛有委員講說你們每個部會都要去立專法這樣是可以的嗎當然技術上可行啦但是我們每件事都要這樣搞那其實是各個部會都會累死嘛所以我才講今天討論修法當然有意義啊因為有些東西樣態嚴重比如說藝文票券體育票券樣態嚴重專門專法處理樣態不嚴重但廣泛情節輕微者設違法處理嘛交通部你同意這樣的說法嗎呃我想我尊重委員會尊重大院委員班沒錯你書面報告也是這樣寫的好謝謝\n\n04:31.055 --> 04:59.466\n好部長其實就是這樣本席希望今天排這個案子經過詢答的程序之後大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中去把文字做合適的處理跟調整法規進合的部分要給它避免掉不破防的功能要給它保留其實就是這樣那本席要花一點點時間要特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊因為本席是非常關心公立大廈管理條例跟相關的這些功能以實務上來講現在噪音管制法第六條你看這一樣嘛\n\n05:00.186 --> 05:27.523\n特殊的噪音樣態它會規範在噪音管制法裡面但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的它就必須要歸給這個大鍋飯這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理所以說社會秩序維護法72條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的就是製造噪音、深夜喧嘩、妨害公眾安寧那我想先請內政部警政署這裡可不可以提供一下相關的資訊\n\n05:28.864 --> 05:42.508\n因為剛剛跟騷的部分有明確的數據但是受違法72條3款請問啦比如說過去一年有開了多少張罰單使用的次數承案的次數相關的數據警政組這邊有資料嗎我目前手頭沒在不過這個很少因為因為他這個\n\n05:45.350 --> 06:01.660\n我們去大部分都會勸導因為沒有這個儀器沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音是到達什麼程度所以這個的過程要件是沒辦法像那個噪音管制法有儀器的量測的這個狀況所以這個部分的這個績效過程設置法的採訪應該很少你們\n\n06:05.134 --> 06:17.503\n裁罰的數字以你目前的了解很少沒有沒關係你會後來準備沒有應該沒有啦因為我外勤幹了很久現在這個員警到達現場都是勸導而已都勸導而已都勸導來我現在問第二個問題你們在員警有沒有統計處理這種疑難雜症妨礙公眾安寧的時候你們出勤了幾次\n\n06:23.432 --> 06:48.574\n應該是算蠻多應該很多次對不對所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間那我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態叫做公寓大廈就是說以前沒有管委會那種鄰居當然是住透天或什麼的當然就是報警處理嘛妨礙公眾安寧就是報警處理你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序違法來做處理不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔就是說管委會你應該有內部先有一套的處理機制\n\n06:49.235 --> 07:06.270\n不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會來請命啊比如說深夜發生噪音的時候按照現行的規定你要先通報管委會那有保全的比較豪華的服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理那大部分為了省管理費等等\n\n07:07.782 --> 07:26.560\n就沒有夜間沒有保全那國安會半夜兩點三點還要幫忙處理噪音問題這就間接導致了這個公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事沒有人做的這樣一個狀況那請問針對公寓大廈這一段的這種噪音的處置狀態你們有沒有去思考過內政部也好警政署也好有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡的方式\n\n07:27.352 --> 07:36.489\n那我想現在如果公益大廈管理處罰條例有成立這些當然有管理會來做一個處理那如果沒有部分目前還是適用設置法的這個狀況報警來做一個處理\n\n07:38.783 --> 08:05.166\n還是報警來做處理我是希望藉這次的質詢來做討論啦因為我以現行的公益大廈管理條例你要先通報管委會管委會不行你還是通報監管機關我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了就一個噪音案件處理的流程非常的繁雜收證也不容易就會導致最後剛剛署長講的其實這個法有規定但是實際上執行的狀況很少我是覺得希望有一套更明確的標準我以桃園市為例比如說這個是他的分工表\n\n08:05.586 --> 08:23.532\n哪些用公寓大廈管理條例哪一些用這個噪音管制法他就有明確的這個說法那再來他也有噪音認定表有地方政府各地的實踐有這樣子的一個方式我希望中央不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間但是針對大廈管理的噪音的問題啊\n\n08:24.432 --> 08:43.409\n如何來做認定如何能夠讓如果不管是噪音管制法公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確好執行的認定方案尤其是可以照顧到我們的公寓大廈相關的這些管委會也好或者是解決社區的疑難雜症這樣可以嗎\n\n08:44.946 --> 09:14.027\n警政署辛苦了但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的但是我覺得這是一個很重要的問題也是一個民生的問題嘛好不好希望部裡面做一下研擬可以嗎你講的有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制啦但是委員很多說法我都贊成可是有一點我還是要跟我們的我要幫我們的警員講一下話第一個警員到現場去的話幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛\n\n09:15.047 --> 09:38.582\n不管他是噪音還是吵架還是丟東西而不是說因為你們吵架所以我用噪音管制法來管理因為如果你給警員很多這樣子的一個自由裁量的新政的時候就是像剛我在回應其他委員的說法那後續他有很多訴願跟行政訴訟那這樣子會沒完沒了所以我們的社會秩序委員法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多\n\n09:39.162 --> 09:53.945\n可能是100件裡面只有一件或是甚至到1000件以上所以要合併的處理不要說馬上就把它放到法條裡面去那這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾因為有法而不行的話不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要求\n\n09:54.085 --> 10:13.098\n沒關係這就是我講為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因包含法的使用次數還有你的出行次數中間的落差還有問題也是為什麼衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制這是本期今天質詢的重點但法條的內容待會我們在討論的時候大家再各自表示意見看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案好那就感謝部長跟署長的說明謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":1.95,"text":"其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的這些修正條文其實大家的想法博外乎就是要針對這些疑難雜症然後做出一些調整嘛"},{"start":27.298,"end":30.15,"text":"那其實本期看大部分的法條大部分都是增加罰則嘛"},{"start":31.175,"end":59.09,"text":"那當然在剛剛討論的過程中有很多人提到比如說叫法規禁核的問題比如說譯文的票卷體育的票卷現在有專法當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提嘛大家就是希望要打擊黃牛初衷是如此所以從各個角度去提案那當然在這段時間的過程中這個體育的相關的條例過關了譯文相關的條例過關了那社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去我覺得有討論空間大家就可以思考一下會不會有法規打架的問題如果會"},{"start":60.451,"end":81.099,"text":"條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整但是我想剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容裡面其實有提到其實社會秩序維護法就是不破網嘛以前大家都是基本上都是交給這個法條來處理但是隨著有越來越多的這個專法處理比如說剛剛有提到蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對跟騷法出來之後也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛"},{"start":81.539,"end":98.613,"text":"他還是有處理剩下來樣態的叫補破網的這樣相關的一個功能這我想部長剛剛也不會反對因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說即便跟騷法上路之後社會法還是有檢舉還是有裁法所以表示這法還是有功能的啦所以我想不管是今天討論噪音討論黃牛票討論跟騷社會秩序違法都還是有這個補破網的功能"},{"start":104.218,"end":125.055,"text":"所以我想在這樣子一個大框架下大家針對法條的內容跟法則來做討論跟補強它怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢所以剛剛有些委員講說我搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義或者是為什麼今天大家要討論這個幹嘛不是這麼簡單的這是我覺得立場非常清楚要來表達一下部長你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎"},{"start":127.508,"end":147.404,"text":"委員你這樣問我怎麼敢回答沒有意義我的意思是說我們在處理這個社會秩序維護法的時候像我們剛剛署長所說因為包山包海所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的一個討論圈那只是說要把它收攏變成說每個條文的討論案或者每個條文的文字上的敘述的話確實有困擾"},{"start":149.345,"end":170.568,"text":"因為不能單純由內政部來處理你看我們今天有四五個部會一起來所以今天我們找了很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛因為我們每一個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的我可以用專法來優先哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來做普破網的功能就來處理我現在來舉例來交通部的代表有請交通部今天有來嘛對不對有謝謝"},{"start":178.904,"end":199.242,"text":"委員好你好那個剛剛有委員講說所有的黃牛票樣態都要立專法來處理那我們講比如說我在旅展買一個這個本來價值是一萬五千塊的一個住宿旅遊套票我在旅展買的時候就打對折對不對可能只要七千五我在那邊買了之後可能買好幾張然後我在網路上賣一萬算不算黃牛票"},{"start":202.571,"end":218.116,"text":"好像算對不對因為我取得的價格跟我賣出的價格我有圖利嘛大概就是黃牛票嘛對不對那比如說郵輪豪華郵輪型的船票同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票低價買高價賣就算嘛對不對那你們交通部要不要立專法"},{"start":220.292,"end":235.321,"text":"我說明一下現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分因為過去有講我現在看了報告裡面鐵路法裡面有講鐵路票券的黃流票已經有規範了對不對但我剛剛講的啊旅宿的餐券或者是什麼郵輪的船票有沒有轉法目前沒有對不對以後會不會有"},{"start":241.069,"end":262.738,"text":"因為剛剛有委員講說你們每個部會都要去立專法這樣是可以的嗎當然技術上可行啦但是我們每件事都要這樣搞那其實是各個部會都會累死嘛所以我才講今天討論修法當然有意義啊因為有些東西樣態嚴重比如說藝文票券體育票券樣態嚴重專門專法處理樣態不嚴重但廣泛情節輕微者設違法處理嘛交通部你同意這樣的說法嗎呃我想我尊重委員會尊重大院委員班沒錯你書面報告也是這樣寫的好謝謝"},{"start":271.055,"end":299.466,"text":"好 部長其實就是這樣本席希望今天排這個案子經過詢答的程序之後大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中去把文字做合適的處理跟調整法規進合的部分要給它避免掉不破防的功能要給它保留其實就是這樣那本席要花一點點時間要特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊因為本席是非常關心公立大廈管理條例跟相關的這些功能以實務上來講現在噪音管制法第六條你看這一樣嘛"},{"start":300.186,"end":327.523,"text":"特殊的噪音樣態它會規範在噪音管制法裡面但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的它就必須要歸給這個大鍋飯這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理所以說社會秩序維護法72條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的就是製造噪音、深夜喧嘩、妨害公眾安寧那我想先請內政部警政署這裡可不可以提供一下相關的資訊"},{"start":328.864,"end":342.508,"text":"因為剛剛跟騷的部分有明確的數據但是受違法72條3款請問啦 比如說過去一年有開了多少張罰單使用的次數 承案的次數 相關的數據警政組這邊有資料嗎我目前手頭沒在不過這個很少因為因為他這個"},{"start":345.35,"end":361.66,"text":"我們去大部分都會勸導因為沒有這個儀器沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音是到達什麼程度所以這個的過程要件是沒辦法像那個噪音管制法有儀器的量測的這個狀況所以這個部分的這個績效過程設置法的採訪應該很少你們"},{"start":365.134,"end":377.503,"text":"裁罰的數字以你目前的了解很少沒有沒關係你會後來準備沒有 應該沒有啦因為我外勤幹了很久現在這個員警到達現場都是勸導而已都勸導而已都勸導來 我現在問第二個問題你們在員警有沒有統計處理這種疑難雜症妨礙公眾安寧的時候你們出勤了幾次"},{"start":383.432,"end":408.574,"text":"應該是算蠻多 應該很多次對不對所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間那我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態叫做公寓大廈就是說以前沒有管委會那種鄰居當然是住透天或什麼的當然就是報警處理嘛妨礙公眾安寧就是報警處理你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序違法來做處理不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔就是說管委會你應該有內部先有一套的處理機制"},{"start":409.235,"end":426.27,"text":"不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會來請命啊比如說深夜發生噪音的時候按照現行的規定你要先通報管委會那有保全的比較豪華的服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理那大部分為了省管理費等等"},{"start":427.782,"end":446.56,"text":"就沒有 夜間沒有保全那國安會半夜兩點三點還要幫忙處理噪音問題這就間接導致了這個公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事沒有人做的這樣一個狀況那請問針對公寓大廈這一段的這種噪音的處置狀態你們有沒有去思考過內政部也好 警政署也好有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡的方式"},{"start":447.352,"end":456.489,"text":"那我想現在如果公益大廈管理處罰條例有成立這些當然有管理會來做一個處理那如果沒有部分目前還是適用設置法的這個狀況報警來做一個處理"},{"start":458.783,"end":485.166,"text":"還是報警來做處理我是希望藉這次的質詢來做討論啦因為我以現行的公益大廈管理條例你要先通報管委會管委會不行你還是通報監管機關我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了就一個噪音案件處理的流程非常的繁雜收證也不容易就會導致最後剛剛署長講的其實這個法有規定但是實際上執行的狀況很少我是覺得希望有一套更明確的標準我以桃園市為例比如說這個是他的分工表"},{"start":485.586,"end":503.532,"text":"哪些用公寓大廈管理條例哪一些用這個噪音管制法他就有明確的這個說法那再來他也有噪音認定表有地方政府各地的實踐有這樣子的一個方式我希望中央不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間但是針對大廈管理的噪音的問題啊"},{"start":504.432,"end":523.409,"text":"如何來做認定如何能夠讓如果不管是噪音管制法公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確好執行的認定方案尤其是可以照顧到我們的公寓大廈相關的這些管委會也好或者是解決社區的疑難雜症這樣可以嗎"},{"start":524.946,"end":554.027,"text":"警政署辛苦了 但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的但是我覺得這是一個很重要的問題 也是一個民生的問題嘛好不好 希望部裡面做一下研擬可以嗎你講的有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制啦但是委員很多說法我都贊成可是有一點我還是要跟我們的我要幫我們的警員講一下話第一個警員到現場去的話幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛"},{"start":555.047,"end":578.582,"text":"不管他是噪音還是吵架還是丟東西而不是說因為你們吵架所以我用噪音管制法來管理因為如果你給警員很多這樣子的一個自由裁量的新政的時候就是像剛我在回應其他委員的說法那後續他有很多訴願跟行政訴訟那這樣子會沒完沒了所以我們的社會秩序委員法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多"},{"start":579.162,"end":593.945,"text":"可能是100件裡面只有一件或是甚至到1000件以上所以要合併的處理不要說馬上就把它放到法條裡面去那這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾因為有法而不行的話不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要求"},{"start":594.085,"end":613.098,"text":"沒關係這就是我講為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因包含法的使用次數還有你的出行次數中間的落差還有問題也是為什麼衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制這是本期今天質詢的重點但法條的內容待會我們在討論的時候大家再各自表示意見看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案好那就感謝部長跟署長的說明謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時54分）謝謝主席。劉部長，有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的修正條文，不外乎就是要針對這些疑難雜症做出調整。本席看大部分的法條都是增加罰責，當然，在剛剛討論的過程中，有很多人提到法規競合的問題，比如說藝文票券、體育票券現在有專法，當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提，大家的初衷都是希望打擊黃牛，所以從各個角度去提案，在這段過程中，體育的相關條例過關了，藝文的相關條例也過關了，那麼社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去？我覺得有討論的空間，大家可以思考一下，會不會有法規打架的問題？如果會，條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整？","剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容其實也有提到，其實社會秩序維護法就是補破網嘛！以前大家基本上都是交給這個法條來處理，但是隨著有越來越多的專法可以處理，比如說剛剛蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對？跟騷法出來之後，也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛！它還是有處理其他剩下來的樣態，類似像補破網的相關功能。所以部長剛剛也不反對，因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說，即便跟騷法上路之後，社維法還是有檢舉、還是有裁罰，所以表示這個法還是有功能的啦！所以不管今天討論噪音、討論黃牛票、討論跟騷，社會秩序維護法都還是有補破網的功能！在這樣子的一個大框架之下，大家針對法條的內容跟罰責來做討論跟補強，怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢？所以剛剛有些委員說自己搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義，或者是今天大家討論這個要幹嘛，我認為不是這麼簡單的！這個立場非常清楚，必須來表達一下。部長，你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你這樣問，我怎麼敢回答「沒有意義」呢？"],["牛委員煦庭：哈哈哈！"],["劉部長世芳：我的意思是說，我們在處理社會秩序維護法的時候，像剛剛我們署長所說，因為包山包海……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦，包山包海。"],["劉部長世芳：所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的討論圈……"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["劉部長世芳：只是說要把它收攏，變成每個條文的討論案或者每個條文的文字敘述的話，確實有困擾，因為不能單純由內政部來處理，你看，包含今天有四、五個部會一起來，所以沒有辦法這樣處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，所以我今天找很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛！因為我們每個部會、每個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的，我們可以專法優先，哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來發揮補破網的功能，我們就來處理。舉例而言，交通部的代表，有請。交通部今天有人來嘛！謝謝。"],["胡副司長迪琦：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你好。剛剛有委員講，所有黃牛票的樣態都要立專法來處理，比如說我在旅展買一個原本價值1萬5,000元的住宿旅遊套票，因為我在旅展買的時候打對折，只要7,500元，我買好幾張，然後在網路上賣1張1萬元，這算不算黃牛票？"],["胡副司長迪琦：嗯……"],["牛委員煦庭：好像算，對不對？因為取得的價格跟賣出的價格相比，我有圖利，那就是黃牛票嘛！對不對？"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：比如說豪華郵輪的船票，同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票？低價買、高價賣，就算嘛！"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：對不對？"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你們交通部要不要立專法？"],["胡副司長迪琦：我說明一下，現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分，因為過去……"],["牛委員煦庭：我看到你們的報告有講，鐵路法對鐵路票券的黃牛票已經有規範了，對不對？那我剛剛講的，旅宿的餐券或郵輪的船票有沒有專法？"],["胡副司長迪琦：目前……"],["牛委員煦庭：目前沒有，對不對？"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：以後會不會有？因為剛剛有委員說你們每個部會都要去立專法，這樣是可以的嗎？技術上當然可行，但如果每件事都要這樣搞，其實各個部會都會累死嘛！所以我才講今天討論修法當然有意義啊！因為有些東西樣態嚴重，比如說藝文票券、體育票券，樣態嚴重，就用專法處理；樣態不嚴重但廣泛、情節輕微者，就用社維法處理嘛！交通部同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["胡副司長迪琦：我尊重委員會處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：「尊重大院委員」？沒錯，你書面報告也是這樣寫的，好，謝謝。","部長，其實就是這樣啦！本席希望，今天排這個案子，經過詢答的程序之後，大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中，去把文字做合適的處理跟調整，法規競合的部分要給它避免掉，補破網的功能要給它保留，其實就是這樣！","本席現在要花一點點時間特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊，因為本席一直非常關心公寓大廈管理條例跟相關的這些功能。以實務上來講，現在噪音管制法第六條，你看這一樣嘛，特殊的噪音樣態才會規範在噪音管制法裡面，但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的，就必須歸給這個大鍋飯──這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理。所以社會秩序維護法第七十二條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的，就是針對「製造噪音或深夜喧嘩，妨害公眾安寧」的部分。我想請問內政部警政署，你們可不可以提供一下相關的資訊？因為剛剛跟騷的部分有明確的數據，請問過去一年，你們根據社維法第七十二條第三款，開了多少張罰單？引用次數、成案件數是多少？相關數據警政署這邊有資料嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我目前手頭沒資料，不過這個很少，我們去大部分都是勸導，因為沒有這個儀器，沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音、到達什麼程度，所以這個的構成要件沒辦法像噪音管制法有儀器量測的狀況，因此這部分的績效、構成社秩法的裁罰應該很少。"],["牛委員煦庭：以你目前了解，你們裁罰的數字很少？"],["張署長榮興：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你會後來準備。"],["張署長榮興：沒有，應該沒有，因為我外勤幹很久，員警到達現場都是勸導而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在問第二個問題，你們針對員警有沒有統計，為了處理這種疑難雜症、妨害公眾安寧的噪音，你們出勤了幾次？"],["張署長榮興：應該是算滿多。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該很多次，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：非常多！"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間，我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態，叫做公寓大廈，以前沒有管委會那種，鄰居大家住透天或其他的當然就是報警處理，妨害公眾安寧就是報警處理，你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序維護法來做處理；不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定，當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔，就是管委會應該要內部先有一套處理機制。不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會請命，比如說深夜發生噪音的時候，按照現行的規定要先通報管委會，那有保全的、比較豪華的、服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理，大部分為了省管理費因此夜間沒有保全，那管委會半夜2點、3點還要幫忙處理噪音問題，間接導致公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事、沒有人要做的一個狀況。請問針對公寓大廈的這種噪音處置樣態，你們有沒有去思考過，內政部也好、警政署也好，有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡方式？"],["張署長榮興：現在依公寓大廈管理條例如果有成立管委會，當然由管委會來做處理；如果沒有的部分，目前還是適用社秩法，報警處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望藉這次的質詢來做討論，因為以現行的公寓大廈管理條例要先通報管委會，管委會不行還要去通報建管機關，我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了。一個噪音案件處理的流程非常繁雜、蒐證也不容易，最後就會導致剛剛署長講的，其實這個法有規定，但是實際上執行的狀況很少，因此我希望有一套更明確的標準。","我以桃園市為例，比如說簡報上是它的分工表，哪一些用公寓大廈管理條例、哪一些用噪音管制法，它就有明確的說法；再來，它也有噪音認定表，地方政府、各地的實踐有這樣子的方式。不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣，因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間，但是針對大廈管理的噪音問題如何來做認定，如何能夠讓噪音管制法、公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用，我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確、好執行的認定方案，尤其是可以照顧到公寓大廈相關的這些管委會或者是解決社區的疑難雜症，這樣可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：應該可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：警政署辛苦了，但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下，我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的，但我覺得這是一個很重要的問題，也是一個民生的問題，好不好？希望部裡面做一下研擬，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：您提到有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分，我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制，關於委員的很多說法我都贊成，可是有一點我還是要幫我們的警員講一下話，第一個，警員到現場去幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：不管他是噪音、吵架還是丟東西，不是因為你們吵架，所以我用噪音管制法來管理，如果給警員很多這種自由裁量的心證空間的時候，就如同剛剛我回應其他委員的說法，後續會有很多訴願跟行政訴訟，那這樣子會沒完沒了，我們社會秩序維護法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子，所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多！"],["牛委員煦庭：很多。"],["劉部長世芳：可能是100件裡面只有1件，甚至到1,000件以上……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我才講這個要提供相關的資料。"],["劉部長世芳：所以這要衡平的處理，不要馬上就把它放到法條裡面去，這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾，因為有法而不行的話，不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要件。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，這就是為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因，包含法的使用次數、你的出勤次數，這中間的落差還有問題衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制，這是本席今天質詢的重點。但法條內容在待會我們討論的時候，大家再各自表示意見，看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案。","感謝部長跟署長的說明，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，也謝謝部長、署長。","接下來，我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}}