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\"等於是可以免就是免列意思就是說這個所謂的醫療票券我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便請人代為不管掛號或是排隊那這個部分請人代為掛號排隊所以提供一些勞務費我想這個部長您是否認同\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 131.809, \"end\": 131.929, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 131.929, \"end\": 132.049, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 132.049, \"end\": 132.269, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 132.269, \"end\": 132.409, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 132.409, \"end\": 132.65, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 132.65, \"end\": 133.43, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 133.43, \"end\": 133.59, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 133.59, \"end\": 134.11, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 134.11, \"end\": 134.371, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 134.371, \"end\": 135.111, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 135.111, \"end\": 135.271, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 135.271, \"end\": 135.431, \"score\": 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00:00:35,109\n部長還有署長首先本席想請教一個問題這個禮拜六426凱道有活動兩位知道嗎知道那我們現在得到消息就是會有人反串這個自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群那可能會引起一些衝突請問這個部分部長是不是會\n\n3\n00:00:36,610 --> 00:01:01,649\n要求警政署好好的來取締這個我們對於這個狀況各種種我們都會掌握來做處理那如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知我們絕對沒有只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象如果警方看到五星旗共黨旗\n\n4\n00:01:04,030 --> 00:01:24,185\n這個我不知道長怎麼樣那你們會不會取締?會不會協助?會這個4月26日那個是申請合法的一個集會我們一定會維護這個集會過程當中的和平順利那如果牽涉到其他會計做干擾干涉不相關的我們會配合主辦單位來做排除好謝謝\n\n5\n00:01:26,767 --> 00:01:32,655\n接著本席要就我們今天這個社會秩序維護法來請教署長那您先回座我接下來請教部長部長\n\n6\n00:01:43,329 --> 00:02:10,868\n這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部但是好像這次修法新增的有些部分好像跟文化部體育部但是體育部還沒成立還有跟可能行政院消保處都很有關環境部對對對還有衛福部衛福部有關所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提這個醫療票券的部分那我看到衛福部的回應是說\n\n7\n00:02:11,809 --> 00:02:36,784\n等於是可以免就是免列意思就是說這個所謂的醫療票券我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便請人代為不管掛號或是排隊那這個部分請人代為掛號排隊所以提供一些勞務費我想這個部長您是否認同\n\n8\n00:02:38,085 --> 00:02:58,944\n我想他的定義啦還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事的系統衛福部已經說如果所謂的醫療票卷他們的意見我看到他們的報告但是這個還沒有做最後的確認因為委員的說法不是您啦委員有的人覺得是有人覺得不是\n\n9\n00:02:59,244 --> 00:03:22,979\n所以這個還要討論就是一般是戴掛號是為了解決譬如說行動不方便的老者長者那另外一方面有的人說在網路上面就有的人已經包山包海要包掛號你要從台大醫院到小診所都有那就表示說他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬或者是要用這個高的這個報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事譬如說我們的掛號費只要100單單給你收1000\n\n10\n00:03:25,821 --> 00:03:32,626\n那這樣對不對那這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化所以這個應該是我們進入主條的時候還要做討論然後釐清的意思嗎我還是一樣因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情在行政院的四次這個開會裡面都有提到要採取分散立法也就是目的失業主管機關盡量分散\n\n11\n00:03:49,957 --> 00:04:10,836\n那如果说是挂号黄牛如果有这个名词的话那是否由卫福部他们来做比较好的所以您表达意见是因为要分散到目的或者叫分流立法分流立法到目的事业主管机关那我们来配合就不希望纳在我们内政部管辖的社会秩序维护法里\n\n12\n00:04:10,916 --> 00:04:30,284\n那個報告委員我想我們是一起合作的啦就是各個部一起合作那我們因為警察人員有那個警察權那警察權可以協助的立場一定來協助但是這一張黃牛票他的認定要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定不是由我們來認定的是目的事業主管機關\n\n13\n00:04:31,204 --> 00:04:55,806\n或者它是違反環境噪音的部分的話呢是要目的事業主管機關來認定可能會比較好所以這樣子的競合啊我們需要仔細來討論我想很多委員都贊成但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法那就一條條圓要解決一個部會裡面要處理的事情會有困擾那部長您請留步然後同步請消保處的代表有嗎今天\n\n14\n00:04:56,346 --> 00:05:20,560\n小寶處有請還有一今天好像是文化部來文化部副市長有請謝謝包含教育部不好意思最後我想請教因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票我只是提到醫療我們部長就提到黃牛票現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會\n\n15\n00:05:21,781 --> 00:05:41,941\n那这个在过去可能他卖假设好一点的位置五千块黄牛票如果烘台到八千或甚至一万的我们就认定是黄牛票嘛对不对那但是现在因为现在社会变迁那我们在饮食上已经有所谓的代买代牌\n\n16\n00:05:42,922 --> 00:06:01,153\n就现在不是只有像Uber其实我们现在有一种就是它取代了整合了传统代为排队就在饮食上也有包括买这些票券所以以前的黄牛票我们是称黄牛票现在如果说OK我请他帮我代排代买\n\n17\n00:06:02,268 --> 00:06:30,889\n這個部分怎麼認定因為我譬如說他賣我八千假設這一個演唱會的這位歌星我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱他的票券本來五千塊的那幫我代牌代買的他說那個勞務費要我給他三千這個願者如果我也願意的話這樣還會是黃牛票嗎這個部分可不可以回答一下\n\n18\n00:06:32,234 --> 00:06:35,500\n那部長您就先請坐好了好好好你請說\n\n19\n00:06:36,568 --> 00:07:05,376\n跟委員報告這個在行政院討論的時候把黃牛票的一個定義上就是說是一個加價轉售就是從所以我把那個加價看成是勞務就沒關係勞務如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出我想那是一般的一個社會上通常的一個合理情形但是如果說不是超過一般社會上合理認定的這種勞務的這個給付的話那是一個所謂的加價轉售然後謀取所謂的一個不當的這個是不是要定義\n\n20\n00:07:05,976 --> 00:07:21,702\n因為有些人他比如說原價五千但是他真的覺得一萬他也願意那所以你的勞務要跟我收同樣五千那這個你要認定是黃牛還是是是他勞務一般是會想共通\n\n21\n00:07:22,262 --> 00:07:40,747\n共同認定的一個所謂的勞務的給付的一個費用我想這個應該是在所有的各行各業中都有一定的一個給付的一個標準啦有嗎現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會也有一個認定標準的嗎如果是個人親自去網路上去購票或去現場購票的話那就沒有所謂勞務的問題\n\n22\n00:07:41,867 --> 00:08:01,372\n那委託他人的話也許會有所謂的跑路啊或者說一些服務的費用但這種服務費用如果說已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦那就是一個加價的轉售啦它加價轉售的目的是在於它自己個人的圖利啊而不是說跑路費用所謂的一個勞務上付出的一個對價啦\n\n23\n00:08:03,137 --> 00:08:26,503\n所以你們是這樣認定但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦他還是有罪對方還是有罪假定買人甘願的話可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票所以就沒有這個問題我們不能說沒有這個問題而是說絕大部分的黃牛票的形成就是因為說這種加價轉秀然後被迫讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者\n\n24\n00:08:27,663 --> 00:08:37,389\n被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來那是一個被迫性質跟所謂的勞務性的基金應該是有差別的所以我想其他的應該也是一樣的意見\n\n25\n00:08:40,413 --> 00:09:09,168\n是不是委員報告就是一般像以代購行為他很可能其實只是以代購的行為包裝他加價的這個非法的事實所以這可能都還是要事實認定那基本上我們還是會從法法來看的話超過票價的金額在販售的話他其實應該就是就是在我們法裡面是個黃牛的行為對那大部分說代購其實都只是用代購在做一個違法行為的包裝這樣子所以你們不\n\n26\n00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:38,830\n不認可這樣嗎但實際上生活上可能需要喔所以這塊沒關係那我大概了解你們的立場最後請回座最後部長我最後不好意思我最後再請教一點不是這次修法但是也是社會秩序維護法第63條有提到就是說如果散佈謠言足以影響公共之安寧者要處三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰環\n\n27\n00:09:39,950 --> 00:10:06,975\n那像現在大罷免不是大罷免對不起現在預算現在這個我們總預算的從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷的衝刺散布在我們社會上甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的那像這個請問您這個合不合乎因為民眾常常就恐慌啦說什麼錢被刪所以我什麼福利沒了什麼福利沒這有沒有影響公共安寧\n\n28\n00:10:08,471 --> 00:10:36,030\n报告委员这个要看事实上如何认定对如果事实上谣言所说的那个项目没有被删除但是却有这样的谣言出来那这一块是警察还是谁要去执法如果是社会秩序维护法当然是由警察来出面来处理这一块所以呢所以我们听到这样谣言的要检举是吗对是不是检举然后警察就就\n\n29\n00:10:37,065 --> 00:11:00,801\n跟我們警政署檢舉是嗎不是啊我就問你這一塊現在就很多啊您剛所引用的這個條文當然裡面寫的是這個部分那應該怎麼處理啊檢舉完了我們還要做事實的認定啊事實的認定所以現在要有人等於提出跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言是這樣嗎程序上我請警政署來回應一下\n\n30\n00:11:02,546 --> 00:11:27,590\n如果有這個狀況的話就是提出檢舉那我們會來做調查像誰像如果說110或者是到警察機關檢舉都可以你第一前面講110110的報案或警察機關來做檢舉如果是屬於這個設置法裡面我們會做設立然後再做依照市值的一個調查依照這個市值的證據是不是屬於這個屬於這個是屬於遙遠的一個狀況\n\n31\n00:11:30,751 --> 00:11:59,312\n好那最後我想請部長還有署長我們現在接下來我們的社會有很多的考驗我們希望我們中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠希望能夠公正好嗎該維護的要維護然後真的違法的不要分藍綠都該處理好嗎沒有問題一定是依法行政對依法行政我們會保持重力好謝謝\n\n32\n00:12:00,817 --> 00:12:02,599\n好,謝謝徐姓委員的諮詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1272\t5423\t謝謝主席本席請劉部長還有張署長警政署張署長劉部長張署長有請徐委員好\n9851\t35109\t部長還有署長首先本席想請教一個問題這個禮拜六426凱道有活動兩位知道嗎知道那我們現在得到消息就是會有人反串這個自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群那可能會引起一些衝突請問這個部分部長是不是會\n36610\t61649\t要求警政署好好的來取締這個我們對於這個狀況各種種我們都會掌握來做處理那如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知我們絕對沒有只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象如果警方看到五星旗共黨旗\n64030\t84185\t這個我不知道長怎麼樣那你們會不會取締?會不會協助?會這個4月26日那個是申請合法的一個集會我們一定會維護這個集會過程當中的和平順利那如果牽涉到其他會計做干擾干涉不相關的我們會配合主辦單位來做排除好謝謝\n86767\t92655\t接著本席要就我們今天這個社會秩序維護法來請教署長那您先回座我接下來請教部長部長\n103329\t130868\t這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部但是好像這次修法新增的有些部分好像跟文化部體育部但是體育部還沒成立還有跟可能行政院消保處都很有關環境部對對對還有衛福部衛福部有關所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提這個醫療票券的部分那我看到衛福部的回應是說\n131809\t156784\t等於是可以免就是免列意思就是說這個所謂的醫療票券我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便請人代為不管掛號或是排隊那這個部分請人代為掛號排隊所以提供一些勞務費我想這個部長您是否認同\n158085\t178944\t我想他的定義啦還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事的系統衛福部已經說如果所謂的醫療票卷他們的意見我看到他們的報告但是這個還沒有做最後的確認因為委員的說法不是您啦委員有的人覺得是有人覺得不是\n179244\t202979\t所以這個還要討論就是一般是戴掛號是為了解決譬如說行動不方便的老者長者那另外一方面有的人說在網路上面就有的人已經包山包海要包掛號你要從台大醫院到小診所都有那就表示說他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬或者是要用這個高的這個報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事譬如說我們的掛號費只要100單單給你收1000\n205821\t212626\t那這樣對不對那這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化所以這個應該是我們進入主條的時候還要做討論然後釐清的意思嗎我還是一樣因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情在行政院的四次這個開會裡面都有提到要採取分散立法也就是目的失業主管機關盡量分散\n229957\t250836\t那如果说是挂号黄牛如果有这个名词的话那是否由卫福部他们来做比较好的所以您表达意见是因为要分散到目的或者叫分流立法分流立法到目的事业主管机关那我们来配合就不希望纳在我们内政部管辖的社会秩序维护法里\n250916\t270284\t那個報告委員我想我們是一起合作的啦就是各個部一起合作那我們因為警察人員有那個警察權那警察權可以協助的立場一定來協助但是這一張黃牛票他的認定要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定不是由我們來認定的是目的事業主管機關\n271204\t295806\t或者它是違反環境噪音的部分的話呢是要目的事業主管機關來認定可能會比較好所以這樣子的競合啊我們需要仔細來討論我想很多委員都贊成但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法那就一條條圓要解決一個部會裡面要處理的事情會有困擾那部長您請留步然後同步請消保處的代表有嗎今天\n296346\t320560\t小寶處有請還有一今天好像是文化部來文化部副市長有請謝謝包含教育部不好意思最後我想請教因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票我只是提到醫療我們部長就提到黃牛票現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會\n321781\t341941\t那这个在过去可能他卖假设好一点的位置五千块黄牛票如果烘台到八千或甚至一万的我们就认定是黄牛票嘛对不对那但是现在因为现在社会变迁那我们在饮食上已经有所谓的代买代牌\n342922\t361153\t就现在不是只有像Uber其实我们现在有一种就是它取代了整合了传统代为排队就在饮食上也有包括买这些票券所以以前的黄牛票我们是称黄牛票现在如果说OK我请他帮我代排代买\n362268\t390889\t這個部分怎麼認定因為我 譬如說他賣我八千假設這一個演唱會的這位歌星我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱他的票券本來五千塊的那幫我代牌代買的他說那個勞務費要我給他三千這個願者如果我也願意的話這樣還會是黃牛票嗎這個部分可不可以回答一下\n392234\t395500\t那部長您就先請坐好了好好好你請說\n396568\t425376\t跟委員報告這個在行政院討論的時候把黃牛票的一個定義上就是說是一個加價轉售就是從所以我把那個加價看成是勞務就沒關係勞務如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出我想那是一般的一個社會上通常的一個合理情形但是如果說不是超過一般社會上合理認定的這種勞務的這個給付的話那是一個所謂的加價轉售然後謀取所謂的一個不當的這個是不是要定義\n425976\t441702\t因為有些人他比如說原價五千但是他真的覺得一萬他也願意那所以你的勞務要跟我收同樣五千那這個你要認定是黃牛還是是是他勞務一般是會想共通\n442262\t460747\t共同認定的一個所謂的勞務的給付的一個費用我想這個應該是在所有的各行各業中都有一定的一個給付的一個標準啦有嗎現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會也有一個認定標準的嗎如果是個人親自去網路上去購票或去現場購票的話那就沒有所謂勞務的問題\n461867\t481372\t那委託他人的話也許會有所謂的跑路啊或者說一些服務的費用但這種服務費用如果說已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦那就是一個加價的轉售啦它加價轉售的目的是在於它自己個人的圖利啊而不是說跑路費用所謂的一個勞務上付出的一個對價啦\n483137\t506503\t所以你們是這樣認定但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦他還是有罪對方還是有罪假定買人甘願的話可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票所以就沒有這個問題我們不能說沒有這個問題而是說絕大部分的黃牛票的形成就是因為說這種加價轉秀然後被迫讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者\n507663\t517389\t被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來那是一個被迫性質跟所謂的勞務性的基金應該是有差別的所以我想其他的應該也是一樣的意見\n520413\t549168\t是不是委員報告就是一般像以代購行為他很可能其實只是以代購的行為包裝他加價的這個非法的事實所以這可能都還是要事實認定那基本上我們還是會從法法來看的話超過票價的金額在販售的話他其實應該就是就是在我們法裡面是個黃牛的行為對那大部分說代購其實都只是用代購在做一個違法行為的包裝這樣子所以你們不\n550100\t578830\t不認可這樣嗎 但實際上生活上可能需要喔所以這塊沒關係 那我大概了解你們的立場最後 請回座 最後部長我最後不好意思 我最後再請教一點不是這次修法 但是也是社會秩序維護法第63條有提到就是說如果散佈謠言足以影響公共之安寧者要處三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰環\n579950\t606975\t那像現在大罷免 不是大罷免 對不起現在預算 現在這個我們總預算的從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷的衝刺散布在我們社會上甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的那像這個 請問您這個合不合乎因為民眾常常就恐慌啦說什麼錢被刪 所以我什麼福利沒了 什麼福利沒這有沒有影響公共安寧\n608471\t636030\t报告委员这个要看事实上如何认定对如果事实上谣言所说的那个项目没有被删除但是却有这样的谣言出来那这一块是警察还是谁要去执法如果是社会秩序维护法当然是由警察来出面来处理这一块所以呢所以我们听到这样谣言的要检举是吗对是不是检举然后警察就就\n637065\t660801\t跟我們警政署檢舉是嗎不是啊我就問你這一塊現在就很多啊您剛所引用的這個條文當然裡面寫的是這個部分那應該怎麼處理啊檢舉完了我們還要做事實的認定啊事實的認定所以現在要有人等於提出跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言是這樣嗎程序上我請警政署來回應一下\n662546\t687590\t如果有這個狀況的話就是提出檢舉那我們會來做調查像誰像如果說110或者是到警察機關檢舉都可以你第一前面講110110的報案或警察機關來做檢舉如果是屬於這個設置法裡面我們會做設立然後再做依照市值的一個調查依照這個市值的證據是不是屬於這個屬於這個是屬於遙遠的一個狀況\n690751\t719312\t好那最後我想請部長還有署長我們現在接下來我們的社會有很多的考驗我們希望我們中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠希望能夠公正好嗎該維護的要維護然後真的違法的不要分藍綠都該處理好嗎沒有問題一定是依法行政對依法行政我們會保持重力好謝謝\n720817\t722599\t好,謝謝徐姓委員的諮詢\n","txt":"謝謝主席本席請劉部長還有張署長警政署張署長劉部長張署長有請徐委員好\n部長還有署長首先本席想請教一個問題這個禮拜六426凱道有活動兩位知道嗎知道那我們現在得到消息就是會有人反串這個自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群那可能會引起一些衝突請問這個部分部長是不是會\n要求警政署好好的來取締這個我們對於這個狀況各種種我們都會掌握來做處理那如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知我們絕對沒有只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象如果警方看到五星旗共黨旗\n這個我不知道長怎麼樣那你們會不會取締?會不會協助?會這個4月26日那個是申請合法的一個集會我們一定會維護這個集會過程當中的和平順利那如果牽涉到其他會計做干擾干涉不相關的我們會配合主辦單位來做排除好謝謝\n接著本席要就我們今天這個社會秩序維護法來請教署長那您先回座我接下來請教部長部長\n這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部但是好像這次修法新增的有些部分好像跟文化部體育部但是體育部還沒成立還有跟可能行政院消保處都很有關環境部對對對還有衛福部衛福部有關所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提這個醫療票券的部分那我看到衛福部的回應是說\n等於是可以免就是免列意思就是說這個所謂的醫療票券我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便請人代為不管掛號或是排隊那這個部分請人代為掛號排隊所以提供一些勞務費我想這個部長您是否認同\n我想他的定義啦還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事的系統衛福部已經說如果所謂的醫療票卷他們的意見我看到他們的報告但是這個還沒有做最後的確認因為委員的說法不是您啦委員有的人覺得是有人覺得不是\n所以這個還要討論就是一般是戴掛號是為了解決譬如說行動不方便的老者長者那另外一方面有的人說在網路上面就有的人已經包山包海要包掛號你要從台大醫院到小診所都有那就表示說他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬或者是要用這個高的這個報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事譬如說我們的掛號費只要100單單給你收1000\n那這樣對不對那這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化所以這個應該是我們進入主條的時候還要做討論然後釐清的意思嗎我還是一樣因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情在行政院的四次這個開會裡面都有提到要採取分散立法也就是目的失業主管機關盡量分散\n那如果说是挂号黄牛如果有这个名词的话那是否由卫福部他们来做比较好的所以您表达意见是因为要分散到目的或者叫分流立法分流立法到目的事业主管机关那我们来配合就不希望纳在我们内政部管辖的社会秩序维护法里\n那個報告委員我想我們是一起合作的啦就是各個部一起合作那我們因為警察人員有那個警察權那警察權可以協助的立場一定來協助但是這一張黃牛票他的認定要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定不是由我們來認定的是目的事業主管機關\n或者它是違反環境噪音的部分的話呢是要目的事業主管機關來認定可能會比較好所以這樣子的競合啊我們需要仔細來討論我想很多委員都贊成但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法那就一條條圓要解決一個部會裡面要處理的事情會有困擾那部長您請留步然後同步請消保處的代表有嗎今天\n小寶處有請還有一今天好像是文化部來文化部副市長有請謝謝包含教育部不好意思最後我想請教因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票我只是提到醫療我們部長就提到黃牛票現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會\n那这个在过去可能他卖假设好一点的位置五千块黄牛票如果烘台到八千或甚至一万的我们就认定是黄牛票嘛对不对那但是现在因为现在社会变迁那我们在饮食上已经有所谓的代买代牌\n就现在不是只有像Uber其实我们现在有一种就是它取代了整合了传统代为排队就在饮食上也有包括买这些票券所以以前的黄牛票我们是称黄牛票现在如果说OK我请他帮我代排代买\n這個部分怎麼認定因為我 譬如說他賣我八千假設這一個演唱會的這位歌星我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱他的票券本來五千塊的那幫我代牌代買的他說那個勞務費要我給他三千這個願者如果我也願意的話這樣還會是黃牛票嗎這個部分可不可以回答一下\n那部長您就先請坐好了好好好你請說\n跟委員報告這個在行政院討論的時候把黃牛票的一個定義上就是說是一個加價轉售就是從所以我把那個加價看成是勞務就沒關係勞務如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出我想那是一般的一個社會上通常的一個合理情形但是如果說不是超過一般社會上合理認定的這種勞務的這個給付的話那是一個所謂的加價轉售然後謀取所謂的一個不當的這個是不是要定義\n因為有些人他比如說原價五千但是他真的覺得一萬他也願意那所以你的勞務要跟我收同樣五千那這個你要認定是黃牛還是是是他勞務一般是會想共通\n共同認定的一個所謂的勞務的給付的一個費用我想這個應該是在所有的各行各業中都有一定的一個給付的一個標準啦有嗎現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會也有一個認定標準的嗎如果是個人親自去網路上去購票或去現場購票的話那就沒有所謂勞務的問題\n那委託他人的話也許會有所謂的跑路啊或者說一些服務的費用但這種服務費用如果說已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦那就是一個加價的轉售啦它加價轉售的目的是在於它自己個人的圖利啊而不是說跑路費用所謂的一個勞務上付出的一個對價啦\n所以你們是這樣認定但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦他還是有罪對方還是有罪假定買人甘願的話可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票所以就沒有這個問題我們不能說沒有這個問題而是說絕大部分的黃牛票的形成就是因為說這種加價轉秀然後被迫讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者\n被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來那是一個被迫性質跟所謂的勞務性的基金應該是有差別的所以我想其他的應該也是一樣的意見\n是不是委員報告就是一般像以代購行為他很可能其實只是以代購的行為包裝他加價的這個非法的事實所以這可能都還是要事實認定那基本上我們還是會從法法來看的話超過票價的金額在販售的話他其實應該就是就是在我們法裡面是個黃牛的行為對那大部分說代購其實都只是用代購在做一個違法行為的包裝這樣子所以你們不\n不認可這樣嗎 但實際上生活上可能需要喔所以這塊沒關係 那我大概了解你們的立場最後 請回座 最後部長我最後不好意思 我最後再請教一點不是這次修法 但是也是社會秩序維護法第63條有提到就是說如果散佈謠言足以影響公共之安寧者要處三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰環\n那像現在大罷免 不是大罷免 對不起現在預算 現在這個我們總預算的從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷的衝刺散布在我們社會上甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的那像這個 請問您這個合不合乎因為民眾常常就恐慌啦說什麼錢被刪 所以我什麼福利沒了 什麼福利沒這有沒有影響公共安寧\n报告委员这个要看事实上如何认定对如果事实上谣言所说的那个项目没有被删除但是却有这样的谣言出来那这一块是警察还是谁要去执法如果是社会秩序维护法当然是由警察来出面来处理这一块所以呢所以我们听到这样谣言的要检举是吗对是不是检举然后警察就就\n跟我們警政署檢舉是嗎不是啊我就問你這一塊現在就很多啊您剛所引用的這個條文當然裡面寫的是這個部分那應該怎麼處理啊檢舉完了我們還要做事實的認定啊事實的認定所以現在要有人等於提出跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言是這樣嗎程序上我請警政署來回應一下\n如果有這個狀況的話就是提出檢舉那我們會來做調查像誰像如果說110或者是到警察機關檢舉都可以你第一前面講110110的報案或警察機關來做檢舉如果是屬於這個設置法裡面我們會做設立然後再做依照市值的一個調查依照這個市值的證據是不是屬於這個屬於這個是屬於遙遠的一個狀況\n好那最後我想請部長還有署長我們現在接下來我們的社會有很多的考驗我們希望我們中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠希望能夠公正好嗎該維護的要維護然後真的違法的不要分藍綠都該處理好嗎沒有問題一定是依法行政對依法行政我們會保持重力好謝謝\n好,謝謝徐姓委員的諮詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.272 --> 00:05.423\n謝謝主席本席請劉部長還有張署長警政署張署長劉部長張署長有請徐委員好\n\n00:09.851 --> 00:35.109\n部長還有署長首先本席想請教一個問題這個禮拜六426凱道有活動兩位知道嗎知道那我們現在得到消息就是會有人反串這個自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群那可能會引起一些衝突請問這個部分部長是不是會\n\n00:36.610 --> 01:01.649\n要求警政署好好的來取締這個我們對於這個狀況各種種我們都會掌握來做處理那如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知我們絕對沒有只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象如果警方看到五星旗共黨旗\n\n01:04.030 --> 01:24.185\n這個我不知道長怎麼樣那你們會不會取締?會不會協助?會這個4月26日那個是申請合法的一個集會我們一定會維護這個集會過程當中的和平順利那如果牽涉到其他會計做干擾干涉不相關的我們會配合主辦單位來做排除好謝謝\n\n01:26.767 --> 01:32.655\n接著本席要就我們今天這個社會秩序維護法來請教署長那您先回座我接下來請教部長部長\n\n01:43.329 --> 02:10.868\n這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部但是好像這次修法新增的有些部分好像跟文化部體育部但是體育部還沒成立還有跟可能行政院消保處都很有關環境部對對對還有衛福部衛福部有關所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提這個醫療票券的部分那我看到衛福部的回應是說\n\n02:11.809 --> 02:36.784\n等於是可以免就是免列意思就是說這個所謂的醫療票券我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便請人代為不管掛號或是排隊那這個部分請人代為掛號排隊所以提供一些勞務費我想這個部長您是否認同\n\n02:38.085 --> 02:58.944\n我想他的定義啦還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事的系統衛福部已經說如果所謂的醫療票卷他們的意見我看到他們的報告但是這個還沒有做最後的確認因為委員的說法不是您啦委員有的人覺得是有人覺得不是\n\n02:59.244 --> 03:22.979\n所以這個還要討論就是一般是戴掛號是為了解決譬如說行動不方便的老者長者那另外一方面有的人說在網路上面就有的人已經包山包海要包掛號你要從台大醫院到小診所都有那就表示說他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬或者是要用這個高的這個報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事譬如說我們的掛號費只要100單單給你收1000\n\n03:25.821 --> 03:32.626\n那這樣對不對那這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化所以這個應該是我們進入主條的時候還要做討論然後釐清的意思嗎我還是一樣因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情在行政院的四次這個開會裡面都有提到要採取分散立法也就是目的失業主管機關盡量分散\n\n03:49.957 --> 04:10.836\n那如果说是挂号黄牛如果有这个名词的话那是否由卫福部他们来做比较好的所以您表达意见是因为要分散到目的或者叫分流立法分流立法到目的事业主管机关那我们来配合就不希望纳在我们内政部管辖的社会秩序维护法里\n\n04:10.916 --> 04:30.284\n那個報告委員我想我們是一起合作的啦就是各個部一起合作那我們因為警察人員有那個警察權那警察權可以協助的立場一定來協助但是這一張黃牛票他的認定要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定不是由我們來認定的是目的事業主管機關\n\n04:31.204 --> 04:55.806\n或者它是違反環境噪音的部分的話呢是要目的事業主管機關來認定可能會比較好所以這樣子的競合啊我們需要仔細來討論我想很多委員都贊成但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法那就一條條圓要解決一個部會裡面要處理的事情會有困擾那部長您請留步然後同步請消保處的代表有嗎今天\n\n04:56.346 --> 05:20.560\n小寶處有請還有一今天好像是文化部來文化部副市長有請謝謝包含教育部不好意思最後我想請教因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票我只是提到醫療我們部長就提到黃牛票現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會\n\n05:21.781 --> 05:41.941\n那这个在过去可能他卖假设好一点的位置五千块黄牛票如果烘台到八千或甚至一万的我们就认定是黄牛票嘛对不对那但是现在因为现在社会变迁那我们在饮食上已经有所谓的代买代牌\n\n05:42.922 --> 06:01.153\n就现在不是只有像Uber其实我们现在有一种就是它取代了整合了传统代为排队就在饮食上也有包括买这些票券所以以前的黄牛票我们是称黄牛票现在如果说OK我请他帮我代排代买\n\n06:02.268 --> 06:30.889\n這個部分怎麼認定因為我譬如說他賣我八千假設這一個演唱會的這位歌星我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱他的票券本來五千塊的那幫我代牌代買的他說那個勞務費要我給他三千這個願者如果我也願意的話這樣還會是黃牛票嗎這個部分可不可以回答一下\n\n06:32.234 --> 06:35.500\n那部長您就先請坐好了好好好你請說\n\n06:36.568 --> 07:05.376\n跟委員報告這個在行政院討論的時候把黃牛票的一個定義上就是說是一個加價轉售就是從所以我把那個加價看成是勞務就沒關係勞務如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出我想那是一般的一個社會上通常的一個合理情形但是如果說不是超過一般社會上合理認定的這種勞務的這個給付的話那是一個所謂的加價轉售然後謀取所謂的一個不當的這個是不是要定義\n\n07:05.976 --> 07:21.702\n因為有些人他比如說原價五千但是他真的覺得一萬他也願意那所以你的勞務要跟我收同樣五千那這個你要認定是黃牛還是是是他勞務一般是會想共通\n\n07:22.262 --> 07:40.747\n共同認定的一個所謂的勞務的給付的一個費用我想這個應該是在所有的各行各業中都有一定的一個給付的一個標準啦有嗎現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會也有一個認定標準的嗎如果是個人親自去網路上去購票或去現場購票的話那就沒有所謂勞務的問題\n\n07:41.867 --> 08:01.372\n那委託他人的話也許會有所謂的跑路啊或者說一些服務的費用但這種服務費用如果說已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦那就是一個加價的轉售啦它加價轉售的目的是在於它自己個人的圖利啊而不是說跑路費用所謂的一個勞務上付出的一個對價啦\n\n08:03.137 --> 08:26.503\n所以你們是這樣認定但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦他還是有罪對方還是有罪假定買人甘願的話可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票所以就沒有這個問題我們不能說沒有這個問題而是說絕大部分的黃牛票的形成就是因為說這種加價轉秀然後被迫讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者\n\n08:27.663 --> 08:37.389\n被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來那是一個被迫性質跟所謂的勞務性的基金應該是有差別的所以我想其他的應該也是一樣的意見\n\n08:40.413 --> 09:09.168\n是不是委員報告就是一般像以代購行為他很可能其實只是以代購的行為包裝他加價的這個非法的事實所以這可能都還是要事實認定那基本上我們還是會從法法來看的話超過票價的金額在販售的話他其實應該就是就是在我們法裡面是個黃牛的行為對那大部分說代購其實都只是用代購在做一個違法行為的包裝這樣子所以你們不\n\n09:10.100 --> 09:38.830\n不認可這樣嗎但實際上生活上可能需要喔所以這塊沒關係那我大概了解你們的立場最後請回座最後部長我最後不好意思我最後再請教一點不是這次修法但是也是社會秩序維護法第63條有提到就是說如果散佈謠言足以影響公共之安寧者要處三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰環\n\n09:39.950 --> 10:06.975\n那像現在大罷免不是大罷免對不起現在預算現在這個我們總預算的從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷的衝刺散布在我們社會上甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的那像這個請問您這個合不合乎因為民眾常常就恐慌啦說什麼錢被刪所以我什麼福利沒了什麼福利沒這有沒有影響公共安寧\n\n10:08.471 --> 10:36.030\n报告委员这个要看事实上如何认定对如果事实上谣言所说的那个项目没有被删除但是却有这样的谣言出来那这一块是警察还是谁要去执法如果是社会秩序维护法当然是由警察来出面来处理这一块所以呢所以我们听到这样谣言的要检举是吗对是不是检举然后警察就就\n\n10:37.065 --> 11:00.801\n跟我們警政署檢舉是嗎不是啊我就問你這一塊現在就很多啊您剛所引用的這個條文當然裡面寫的是這個部分那應該怎麼處理啊檢舉完了我們還要做事實的認定啊事實的認定所以現在要有人等於提出跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言是這樣嗎程序上我請警政署來回應一下\n\n11:02.546 --> 11:27.590\n如果有這個狀況的話就是提出檢舉那我們會來做調查像誰像如果說110或者是到警察機關檢舉都可以你第一前面講110110的報案或警察機關來做檢舉如果是屬於這個設置法裡面我們會做設立然後再做依照市值的一個調查依照這個市值的證據是不是屬於這個屬於這個是屬於遙遠的一個狀況\n\n11:30.751 --> 11:59.312\n好那最後我想請部長還有署長我們現在接下來我們的社會有很多的考驗我們希望我們中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠希望能夠公正好嗎該維護的要維護然後真的違法的不要分藍綠都該處理好嗎沒有問題一定是依法行政對依法行政我們會保持重力好謝謝\n\n12:00.817 --> 12:02.599\n好,謝謝徐姓委員的諮詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.272,"end":5.423,"text":"謝謝主席本席請劉部長還有張署長警政署張署長劉部長張署長有請徐委員好"},{"start":9.851,"end":35.109,"text":"部長還有署長首先本席想請教一個問題這個禮拜六426凱道有活動兩位知道嗎知道那我們現在得到消息就是會有人反串這個自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群那可能會引起一些衝突請問這個部分部長是不是會"},{"start":36.61,"end":61.649,"text":"要求警政署好好的來取締這個我們對於這個狀況各種種我們都會掌握來做處理那如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知我們絕對沒有只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象如果警方看到五星旗共黨旗"},{"start":64.03,"end":84.185,"text":"這個我不知道長怎麼樣那你們會不會取締?會不會協助?會這個4月26日那個是申請合法的一個集會我們一定會維護這個集會過程當中的和平順利那如果牽涉到其他會計做干擾干涉不相關的我們會配合主辦單位來做排除好謝謝"},{"start":86.767,"end":92.655,"text":"接著本席要就我們今天這個社會秩序維護法來請教署長那您先回座我接下來請教部長部長"},{"start":103.329,"end":130.868,"text":"這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部但是好像這次修法新增的有些部分好像跟文化部體育部但是體育部還沒成立還有跟可能行政院消保處都很有關環境部對對對還有衛福部衛福部有關所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提這個醫療票券的部分那我看到衛福部的回應是說"},{"start":131.809,"end":156.784,"text":"等於是可以免就是免列意思就是說這個所謂的醫療票券我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便請人代為不管掛號或是排隊那這個部分請人代為掛號排隊所以提供一些勞務費我想這個部長您是否認同"},{"start":158.085,"end":178.944,"text":"我想他的定義啦還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事的系統衛福部已經說如果所謂的醫療票卷他們的意見我看到他們的報告但是這個還沒有做最後的確認因為委員的說法不是您啦委員有的人覺得是有人覺得不是"},{"start":179.244,"end":202.979,"text":"所以這個還要討論就是一般是戴掛號是為了解決譬如說行動不方便的老者長者那另外一方面有的人說在網路上面就有的人已經包山包海要包掛號你要從台大醫院到小診所都有那就表示說他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬或者是要用這個高的這個報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事譬如說我們的掛號費只要100單單給你收1000"},{"start":205.821,"end":212.626,"text":"那這樣對不對那這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化所以這個應該是我們進入主條的時候還要做討論然後釐清的意思嗎我還是一樣因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情在行政院的四次這個開會裡面都有提到要採取分散立法也就是目的失業主管機關盡量分散"},{"start":229.957,"end":250.836,"text":"那如果说是挂号黄牛如果有这个名词的话那是否由卫福部他们来做比较好的所以您表达意见是因为要分散到目的或者叫分流立法分流立法到目的事业主管机关那我们来配合就不希望纳在我们内政部管辖的社会秩序维护法里"},{"start":250.916,"end":270.284,"text":"那個報告委員我想我們是一起合作的啦就是各個部一起合作那我們因為警察人員有那個警察權那警察權可以協助的立場一定來協助但是這一張黃牛票他的認定要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定不是由我們來認定的是目的事業主管機關"},{"start":271.204,"end":295.806,"text":"或者它是違反環境噪音的部分的話呢是要目的事業主管機關來認定可能會比較好所以這樣子的競合啊我們需要仔細來討論我想很多委員都贊成但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法那就一條條圓要解決一個部會裡面要處理的事情會有困擾那部長您請留步然後同步請消保處的代表有嗎今天"},{"start":296.346,"end":320.56,"text":"小寶處有請還有一今天好像是文化部來文化部副市長有請謝謝包含教育部不好意思最後我想請教因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票我只是提到醫療我們部長就提到黃牛票現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會"},{"start":321.781,"end":341.941,"text":"那这个在过去可能他卖假设好一点的位置五千块黄牛票如果烘台到八千或甚至一万的我们就认定是黄牛票嘛对不对那但是现在因为现在社会变迁那我们在饮食上已经有所谓的代买代牌"},{"start":342.922,"end":361.153,"text":"就现在不是只有像Uber其实我们现在有一种就是它取代了整合了传统代为排队就在饮食上也有包括买这些票券所以以前的黄牛票我们是称黄牛票现在如果说OK我请他帮我代排代买"},{"start":362.268,"end":390.889,"text":"這個部分怎麼認定因為我 譬如說他賣我八千假設這一個演唱會的這位歌星我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱他的票券本來五千塊的那幫我代牌代買的他說那個勞務費要我給他三千這個願者如果我也願意的話這樣還會是黃牛票嗎這個部分可不可以回答一下"},{"start":392.234,"end":395.5,"text":"那部長您就先請坐好了好好好你請說"},{"start":396.568,"end":425.376,"text":"跟委員報告這個在行政院討論的時候把黃牛票的一個定義上就是說是一個加價轉售就是從所以我把那個加價看成是勞務就沒關係勞務如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出我想那是一般的一個社會上通常的一個合理情形但是如果說不是超過一般社會上合理認定的這種勞務的這個給付的話那是一個所謂的加價轉售然後謀取所謂的一個不當的這個是不是要定義"},{"start":425.976,"end":441.702,"text":"因為有些人他比如說原價五千但是他真的覺得一萬他也願意那所以你的勞務要跟我收同樣五千那這個你要認定是黃牛還是是是他勞務一般是會想共通"},{"start":442.262,"end":460.747,"text":"共同認定的一個所謂的勞務的給付的一個費用我想這個應該是在所有的各行各業中都有一定的一個給付的一個標準啦有嗎現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會也有一個認定標準的嗎如果是個人親自去網路上去購票或去現場購票的話那就沒有所謂勞務的問題"},{"start":461.867,"end":481.372,"text":"那委託他人的話也許會有所謂的跑路啊或者說一些服務的費用但這種服務費用如果說已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦那就是一個加價的轉售啦它加價轉售的目的是在於它自己個人的圖利啊而不是說跑路費用所謂的一個勞務上付出的一個對價啦"},{"start":483.137,"end":506.503,"text":"所以你們是這樣認定但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦他還是有罪對方還是有罪假定買人甘願的話可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票所以就沒有這個問題我們不能說沒有這個問題而是說絕大部分的黃牛票的形成就是因為說這種加價轉秀然後被迫讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者"},{"start":507.663,"end":517.389,"text":"被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來那是一個被迫性質跟所謂的勞務性的基金應該是有差別的所以我想其他的應該也是一樣的意見"},{"start":520.413,"end":549.168,"text":"是不是委員報告就是一般像以代購行為他很可能其實只是以代購的行為包裝他加價的這個非法的事實所以這可能都還是要事實認定那基本上我們還是會從法法來看的話超過票價的金額在販售的話他其實應該就是就是在我們法裡面是個黃牛的行為對那大部分說代購其實都只是用代購在做一個違法行為的包裝這樣子所以你們不"},{"start":550.1,"end":578.83,"text":"不認可這樣嗎 但實際上生活上可能需要喔所以這塊沒關係 那我大概了解你們的立場最後 請回座 最後部長我最後不好意思 我最後再請教一點不是這次修法 但是也是社會秩序維護法第63條有提到就是說如果散佈謠言足以影響公共之安寧者要處三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰環"},{"start":579.95,"end":606.975,"text":"那像現在大罷免 不是大罷免 對不起現在預算 現在這個我們總預算的從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷的衝刺散布在我們社會上甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的那像這個 請問您這個合不合乎因為民眾常常就恐慌啦說什麼錢被刪 所以我什麼福利沒了 什麼福利沒這有沒有影響公共安寧"},{"start":608.471,"end":636.03,"text":"报告委员这个要看事实上如何认定对如果事实上谣言所说的那个项目没有被删除但是却有这样的谣言出来那这一块是警察还是谁要去执法如果是社会秩序维护法当然是由警察来出面来处理这一块所以呢所以我们听到这样谣言的要检举是吗对是不是检举然后警察就就"},{"start":637.065,"end":660.801,"text":"跟我們警政署檢舉是嗎不是啊我就問你這一塊現在就很多啊您剛所引用的這個條文當然裡面寫的是這個部分那應該怎麼處理啊檢舉完了我們還要做事實的認定啊事實的認定所以現在要有人等於提出跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言是這樣嗎程序上我請警政署來回應一下"},{"start":662.546,"end":687.59,"text":"如果有這個狀況的話就是提出檢舉那我們會來做調查像誰像如果說110或者是到警察機關檢舉都可以你第一前面講110110的報案或警察機關來做檢舉如果是屬於這個設置法裡面我們會做設立然後再做依照市值的一個調查依照這個市值的證據是不是屬於這個屬於這個是屬於遙遠的一個狀況"},{"start":690.751,"end":719.312,"text":"好那最後我想請部長還有署長我們現在接下來我們的社會有很多的考驗我們希望我們中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠希望能夠公正好嗎該維護的要維護然後真的違法的不要分藍綠都該處理好嗎沒有問題一定是依法行政對依法行政我們會保持重力好謝謝"},{"start":720.817,"end":722.599,"text":"好,謝謝徐姓委員的諮詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":751,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時11分）謝謝主席，本席請劉部長還有警政署張署長。"],["主席：劉部長、張署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長還有署長，首先本席想請教一個問題，這個禮拜六426凱道有活動，兩位知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：知道。"],["張署長榮興：知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們現在得到消息，會有人反串，自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群，可能會引起一些衝突，請問這個部分，部長是不是會要求警政署好好的來取締這個情況？"],["張署長榮興：我們對於各種狀況，我們都會掌握來做處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知，我們絕對沒有，只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的，絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果警方看到五星旗、共黨旗，我不知道長怎麼樣，你們會不會取締、會不會協助？"],["張署長榮興：4月26日已申請合法的集會，我們一定會維護集會過程當中的和平、順利，如果牽涉到其他，會去做干擾、干預不相關的，我們會配合主辦單位來做排除。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，署長先回座。接著本席要就今天社會秩序維護法來請教部長，這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部，但是這次修法新增的有些部分，好像跟文化部、體育部，當然體育部還沒成立，還有可能跟行政院、消保處都很有關。"],["劉部長世芳：環境部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，還有衛福部，跟衛福部有關。所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提醫療票券的部分，我看到衛福部的回應，等於是可以免列，意思就是所謂的醫療票券，我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾，他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便，請人代為，不管掛號或是排隊，請人代為掛號排隊，所以提供一些勞務費，這個部長是否認同？"],["劉部長世芳：我想它的定義還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較好，因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事系統。"],["徐委員欣瑩：衛福部已經說，如果是所謂的醫療票券，他們的意見，我看到他們的報告是說免列。"],["劉部長世芳：但是這個還沒有做最後的確認。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，還沒討論嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：因為委員的說法……不是您，有的人覺得是，有的人覺得不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個還要討論，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：就是你講的，一般代掛號是為了譬如說行動不方便的長者，另外一方面，有的人說在網路上面已經有包山包海要包掛號，從臺大醫院到小診所都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有一些醫療的，其他的。"],["劉部長世芳：那就表示他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬，或者是用高報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事，譬如說我們的掛號費只要100，但是他跟你收1,000，那這樣對不對？這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化，還需要法律上比較多的討論……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以這一個應該是我們進入逐條的時候，還要做討論，然後釐清的意思嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我還是一樣，因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情，在行政院4次開會裡面都有提到，要採取分散立法，也就是目的事業主管機關盡量分散，如果說是掛號黃牛，如果有這個名詞的話，那是否由衛福部他們來議定比較好的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您表達意見是，因為要分散到目的……"],["劉部長世芳：分散立法，或者叫分流立法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：分流立法到目的事業主管機關。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來配合。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就不希望納在內政部管轄的社會秩序維護法裡面？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想我們是一起合作的，就是各個部會一起合作，因為警察人員有警察權，就警察權可以協助的立場，一定會來協助，但是這一張黃牛票的認定、要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定的，不是由我們來認定的，是目的事業主管機關，或者他違反環境噪音的話，是要由目的事業主管機關來認定，可能會比較好，所以這樣子的競合，我們需要仔細來討論，我想很多委員都贊成。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["劉部長世芳：但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法法，就一條條文要解決一個部會裡面要處理的事情，會有困擾。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，部長請留步，同步請消保處的代表，今天有嗎？"],["主席：消保處有請。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有，今天好像是文化部。"],["主席：文化部副司長有請。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，謝謝。包含教育部，不好意思。"],["主席：教育部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後我想請教，因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票，我只是提到醫療，部長就提到黃牛票，現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會，這個在過去可能他賣假設好一點的位置，5,000塊，黃牛票如果哄抬到8,000甚至1萬的，我們就認定是黃牛票嘛，對不對？但是現在因為社會變遷，我們在飲食上已經有所謂的代買代排，現在不是只有像Uber，其實我們現在有一種，就是他取代了整合了傳統的代為排隊，就在飲食方面也有，包括買這些票券，所以以前的黃牛票，我們就稱黃牛票，現在如果我請他幫我代排代買，這個部分怎麼認定？比如說，好，他賣我8,000，假設這一個演唱會的歌星，我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱，他的票券本來5,000塊的，幫我代排代買的說我要給他3,000勞務費，願者上鉤，如果我也願意的話，這樣還會是黃牛票嗎？這個部分可不可以回答一下？"],["陳副處長星宏：跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長先請坐，您請說。"],["陳副處長星宏：跟委員報告，這個在行政院討論的時候，把黃牛票的定義為一個加價轉售，就是從……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我把那個加價看成是勞務，就沒關係？"],["陳副處長星宏：如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出，我想那一般是社會上通常的合理情形，但如果是超過一般社會上合理認定的勞務給付的話，那是一個所謂的加價轉售，謀取不當利益的話……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這是不是要定義？因為有些人比如說原價5,000，但是他真的覺得1萬他也願意，所以勞務要跟我收同樣5,000，那這個你要認定是黃牛，還是他勞務……"],["陳副處長星宏：不過這還是有一般社會上共通認定的勞務給付的費用，我想這個在所有的各行各業中應該都有一定給付的標準……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有嗎？現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會，也有一個認定標準了嗎？"],["陳副處長星宏：如果是個人親自去網路上購票或是現場購票的話，那就沒有所謂勞務的問題，委託他人的話，也許會有所謂的跑路或者一些服務的費用，但這種服務費用如果已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話，那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦！那就是一個加價的轉售啦！他加價轉售目的是在於他自己個人的圖利，而不是跑路費用，即勞務上付出的對價。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們是這樣認定？"],["陳副處長星宏：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦？他還是有罪？對方還是有罪？"],["陳副處長星宏：假定買的人甘願的話，可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以就沒有這個問題嘛？"],["陳副處長星宏：我們不能說沒有這個問題，而是絕大部分的黃牛票就是因為這種加價轉售，然後讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來，那是一個被迫性質，跟所謂的勞務性給付應該是有差別的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以我想其他應該也是一樣的意見，是不是？"],["顏副司長容欣：跟委員報告，一般說的代購，很可能只是以代購的名義包裝加價的非法事實，所以這可能都是要依據事實去認定。基本上，我們從法來看，超過票價金額販售的話，在法裡面就是黃牛的行為，大部分說代購，其實都只是用代購在做違法行為的包裝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們不認可這樣嗎？但實際生活上可能需要，沒關係，我大概了解你們的立場，請回座。","部長，我最後再請教一點，不是這次修法，但也是社會秩序維護法第六十三條有提到，如果散布謠言足以影響公共安寧者，要處3日以下的拘留或新臺幣3萬以下罰鍰。像現在總預算，從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷充斥散布在社會上，甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的，像這個請問您合不合乎社會秩序維護法？因為民眾常常恐慌，說什麼錢被刪，所以我什麼福利沒了，這有沒有影響公共安寧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個要看事實如何認定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，如果事實上謠言說的那個項目沒有被刪除，但是卻有這樣的謠言出來，這一塊是警察還是誰要執法？"],["劉部長世芳：如果是社會秩序維護法，當然是由警察來出面處理這一塊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們聽到這樣謠言……"],["劉部長世芳：要檢舉，是嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，是不是檢舉，然後警察就……"],["劉部長世芳：跟我們警政署檢舉，是嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，我問你，這一塊現在就很多……"],["劉部長世芳：您剛所引用的這個條文，裡面寫的是這個部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在那麼多謠言，應該怎麼處理？"],["劉部長世芳：檢舉完，我們還要做事實的認定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：事實的認定，所以現在要有人跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言，是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：程序上，我請警政署來回應一下。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，如果有這個狀況的話，提出檢舉，我們會來做調查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：向誰提出檢舉？"],["張署長榮興：向110或是到警察機關檢舉都可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你前面講的是？"],["張署長榮興：報案的110。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔！110。"],["張署長榮興：或是跟警察機關來做檢舉，如果是屬於社秩法，我們會受理，然後再依照事實調查，依照事實的證據是不是屬於謠言的狀況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後我想請部長，還有署長。社會有很多的考驗，我們希望中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠，希望能公正，好嗎？該維護的要維護，違法的不分藍綠都該處理，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：沒問題，一定是依法行政。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，依法行政。"],["張署長榮興：我們會保持中立。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","下一位請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}}