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753.899, \"text\": \"還有另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 728.837, \"end\": 728.917, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 728.917, \"end\": 729.077, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 729.077, \"end\": 729.277, \"score\": 0.591}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 729.277, \"end\": 729.377, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 729.377, \"end\": 729.398, \"score\": 0.052}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 729.398, \"end\": 729.498, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 729.498, \"end\": 729.718, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 729.718, \"end\": 729.858, \"score\": 0.537}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 729.858, \"end\": 729.938, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 729.938, \"end\": 730.058, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": 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--> 00:01:12,733\n他們沒有來報告這件事嗎我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則\n\n4\n00:01:14,533 --> 00:01:32,361\n那事後移民署跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉\n\n5\n00:01:42,105 --> 00:02:10,166\n你慎重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,阿沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉\n\n6\n00:02:11,047 --> 00:02:21,076\n你再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛對不對日夜更嚴重啊,保證你這個從4月,我告訴你這個比較嚴重你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西,本來就沒東西嘛你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠\n\n7\n00:02:33,148 --> 00:02:52,723\n報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會\n\n8\n00:02:53,964 --> 00:03:22,126\n來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認\n\n9\n00:03:23,607 --> 00:03:40,275\n那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件\n\n10\n00:03:49,760 --> 00:04:17,666\n但是呢他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身份證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍呢跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身份證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色\n\n11\n00:04:18,186 --> 00:04:26,891\n也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生\n\n12\n00:04:46,743 --> 00:05:14,191\n這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成了困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委還有辦公室解釋嘛\n\n13\n00:05:15,191 --> 00:05:35,614\n他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸會主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸委會都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔\n\n14\n00:05:36,234 --> 00:05:49,627\n第二要求我是剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說欸張其凱你有你就要回大陸去\n\n15\n00:05:57,902 --> 00:06:23,190\n陸委主委也承認啊他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話或者到移民署到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講連找哪個地方的公安你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是雖然你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後那你就回大陸去\n\n16\n00:06:24,190 --> 00:06:46,432\n就造成這樣一個擾民嘛,這是一個很大問題,所以我具體,我先跟你講一下這這個事情很嚴重,老實講,這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去,全台灣幾十萬陸配很多家裡面那個,兵荒馬亂,雞尾狗跳的那可能如果被你們註銷,或者要驅逐出境,那就變兩岸的人球,台中也沒有了嘛\n\n17\n00:06:47,998 --> 00:07:17,305\n多少家庭因為這樣子最近這一個多月將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化多大一個擔心我列幾個個案來給你聽我大概搜到幾百件裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥一個年輕的他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了\n\n18\n00:07:18,682 --> 00:07:43,329\n連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟\n\n19\n00:07:45,066 --> 00:07:49,887\n一共啊你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣再繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配下次又是哪個族群\n\n20\n00:08:13,052 --> 00:08:17,575\n到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了\n\n21\n00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:55,992\n你的一個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒他說哈囉30年前欸正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是一個台灣人啊\n\n22\n00:09:07,248 --> 00:09:29,118\n結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明,不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴,是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的啦我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案我們明確的規定\n\n23\n00:09:31,121 --> 00:09:59,826\n民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第一件在我剛才說的\n\n24\n00:10:01,229 --> 00:10:19,152\n陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有護金嗎好不好你不要常常跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你所以縣市之外你所以應該去一個函\n\n25\n00:10:31,581 --> 00:10:44,537\n你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函說我之前走不上去了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了\n\n26\n00:10:49,666 --> 00:11:04,815\n時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎\n\n27\n00:11:07,504 --> 00:11:15,291\n我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專情隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨\n\n28\n00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:50,790\n4月21號以後就有接種21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便\n\n29\n00:11:51,690 --> 00:11:55,232\n或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們\n\n30\n00:12:08,837 --> 00:12:33,899\n還有另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條\n\n31\n00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:50,240\n請求權時效的消滅的部分呢他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考\n\n32\n00:12:52,182 --> 00:13:12,760\n政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講這個也不公平是我想正我的責任我剛剛跟你講但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊\n\n33\n00:13:14,242 --> 00:13:36,125\n你現在賭職你們在21年前就賭職了啊是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理你應該用一個比較完整比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了我們提了你們現在的六大排除你說你們解決方案就六大排除嗎太窄化了你現在解決了大概是打折打折打折再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛你就把他全部放寬\n\n34\n00:13:37,406 --> 00:13:58,879\n全部放寬不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範怎麼會不符合呢那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任我們提出修法我們非常負責任我就是在你執行之前的民國九十三年的三類一號之前的一定用拒絕的方式不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的那在這個時間點之後的範圍我們就授權由\n\n35\n00:14:01,823 --> 00:14:23,448\n入委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天入委會主委跟副主委有講\n\n36\n00:14:23,968 --> 00:14:52,128\n但是現在我們這邊申請案子非常多有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛講的是根本要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍\n\n37\n00:14:53,115 --> 00:15:13,684\n這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的\n\n38\n00:15:16,425 --> 00:15:34,644\n你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3例以後全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除再擴大一點好不好不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法已經會送到委員會去審查了\n\n39\n00:15:35,866 --> 00:15:59,528\n我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事物不要讓民眾來承受這種事不能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍現在沒有這樣的案例啊\n\n40\n00:16:00,749 --> 00:16:28,540\n你現在不是現在進行事嗎?現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情?所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎?我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們沒有法將單要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理?\n\n41\n00:16:29,860 --> 00:16:49,349\n要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把他處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有是不是這樣我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣\n\n42\n00:16:51,941 --> 00:16:55,202\n我們後面還會有這個相關的業務報告的時間然後修法我們也都會尊重那請劉副長也我們都花點時間大家彼此討論OK好不好不好意思謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1792\t28685\t好 劉部長有請抱歉抱歉 我以為你要請署長所以我就先下去 抱歉抱歉張委員好來 我來問你一個可能是這個世紀啊最大的烏龍 最大的藻民而且應該是要國賠保定4月2號 移民署啊寄了一萬多份的這個通知給這個陸配啊\n30510\t39563\t結果搞了一個大烏龍竟然有些子女啊根本就沒有大陸的這個戶籍啊你們全部把它寄出去對不對\n43680\t72733\t他們沒有來報告這件事嗎我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則\n74533\t92361\t那事後移民署跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉\n102105\t130166\t你慎重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,阿沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉\n131047\t141076\t你再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛對不對日夜更嚴重啊,保證你這個從4月,我告訴你這個比較嚴重你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西,本來就沒東西嘛你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠\n153148\t172723\t報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會\n173964\t202126\t來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認\n203607\t220275\t那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件\n229760\t257666\t但是呢他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身份證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍呢跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身份證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色\n258186\t266891\t也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生\n286743\t314191\t這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成了困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委還有辦公室解釋嘛\n315191\t335614\t他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好 例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸會主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸委會都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔\n336234\t349627\t第二要求我是剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說欸張其凱你有你就要回大陸去\n357902\t383190\t陸委主委也承認啊 他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話 或者到移民署 到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講 連找哪個地方的公安 你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是 雖然你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙 我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊 現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後 那你就回大陸去\n384190\t406432\t就造成這樣一個擾民嘛,這是一個很大問題,所以我具體,我先跟你講一下這這個事情很嚴重,老實講,這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去,全台灣幾十萬陸配很多家裡面那個,兵荒馬亂,雞尾狗跳的那可能如果被你們註銷,或者要驅逐出境,那就變兩岸的人球,台中也沒有了嘛\n407998\t437305\t多少家庭因為這樣子 最近這一個多月 將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化 多大一個擔心我列幾個個案來給你聽我大概搜到幾百件 裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的 不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥 一個年輕的 他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了\n438682\t463329\t連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟\n465066\t469887\t一共啊 你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦 工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內 還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的 網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣再繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配 下次又是哪個族群\n493052\t497575\t到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了\n523120\t535992\t你的一個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒 他說哈囉30年前欸 正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是一個台灣人啊\n547248\t569118\t結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明,不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴,是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的啦我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案我們明確的規定\n571121\t599826\t民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第一件在我剛才說的\n601229\t619152\t陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有護金嗎好不好你不要常常跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你所以縣市之外你所以應該去一個函\n631581\t644537\t你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函說我之前走不上去了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了\n649666\t664815\t時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎\n667504\t675291\t我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專情隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨\n685400\t710790\t4月21號以後就有接種21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便\n711690\t715232\t或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們\n728837\t753899\t還有另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條\n755840\t770240\t請求權時效的消滅的部分呢他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考\n772182\t792760\t政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講這個也不公平是我想正我的責任我剛剛跟你講但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊\n794242\t816125\t你現在賭職 你們在21年前就賭職了啊是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理 你應該用一個比較完整比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了 我們提了你們現在的六大排除 你說你們解決方案就六大排除嗎太窄化了 你現在解決了大概是打折打折打折 再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛 你就把他全部放寬\n817406\t838879\t全部放寬不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範怎麼會不符合呢那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任我們提出修法我們非常負責任我就是在你執行之前的民國九十三年的三類一號之前的一定用拒絕的方式不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的那在這個時間點之後的範圍我們就授權由\n841823\t863448\t入委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天入委會主委跟副主委有講\n863968\t892128\t但是現在我們這邊申請案子非常多有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛講的是根本要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍\n893115\t913684\t這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的\n916425\t934644\t你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3例以後 全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的 我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除 再擴大一點好不好 不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法 已經會送到委員會去審查了\n935866\t959528\t我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事物不要讓民眾來承受這種事不能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍現在沒有這樣的案例啊\n960749\t988540\t你現在不是現在進行事嗎?現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情?所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎?我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們沒有法將單要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理?\n989860\t1009349\t要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把他處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有是不是這樣我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣\n1011941\t1015202\t我們後面還會有這個相關的業務報告的時間然後修法我們也都會尊重那請劉副長也我們都花點時間大家彼此討論OK好不好不好意思謝謝\n","txt":"好 劉部長有請抱歉抱歉 我以為你要請署長所以我就先下去 抱歉抱歉張委員好來 我來問你一個可能是這個世紀啊最大的烏龍 最大的藻民而且應該是要國賠保定4月2號 移民署啊寄了一萬多份的這個通知給這個陸配啊\n結果搞了一個大烏龍竟然有些子女啊根本就沒有大陸的這個戶籍啊你們全部把它寄出去對不對\n他們沒有來報告這件事嗎我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則\n那事後移民署跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉\n你慎重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,阿沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉\n你再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛對不對日夜更嚴重啊,保證你這個從4月,我告訴你這個比較嚴重你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西,本來就沒東西嘛你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠\n報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會\n來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認\n那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件\n但是呢他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身份證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍呢跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身份證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色\n也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生\n這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成了困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委還有辦公室解釋嘛\n他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好 例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸會主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸委會都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔\n第二要求我是剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說欸張其凱你有你就要回大陸去\n陸委主委也承認啊 他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話 或者到移民署 到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講 連找哪個地方的公安 你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是 雖然你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙 我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊 現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後 那你就回大陸去\n就造成這樣一個擾民嘛,這是一個很大問題,所以我具體,我先跟你講一下這這個事情很嚴重,老實講,這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去,全台灣幾十萬陸配很多家裡面那個,兵荒馬亂,雞尾狗跳的那可能如果被你們註銷,或者要驅逐出境,那就變兩岸的人球,台中也沒有了嘛\n多少家庭因為這樣子 最近這一個多月 將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化 多大一個擔心我列幾個個案來給你聽我大概搜到幾百件 裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的 不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥 一個年輕的 他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了\n連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟\n一共啊 你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦 工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內 還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的 網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣再繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配 下次又是哪個族群\n到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了\n你的一個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒 他說哈囉30年前欸 正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是一個台灣人啊\n結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明,不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴,是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的啦我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案我們明確的規定\n民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第一件在我剛才說的\n陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有護金嗎好不好你不要常常跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你所以縣市之外你所以應該去一個函\n你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函說我之前走不上去了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了\n時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎\n我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專情隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨\n4月21號以後就有接種21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便\n或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們\n還有另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條\n請求權時效的消滅的部分呢他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考\n政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講這個也不公平是我想正我的責任我剛剛跟你講但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊\n你現在賭職 你們在21年前就賭職了啊是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理 你應該用一個比較完整比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了 我們提了你們現在的六大排除 你說你們解決方案就六大排除嗎太窄化了 你現在解決了大概是打折打折打折 再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛 你就把他全部放寬\n全部放寬不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範怎麼會不符合呢那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任我們提出修法我們非常負責任我就是在你執行之前的民國九十三年的三類一號之前的一定用拒絕的方式不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的那在這個時間點之後的範圍我們就授權由\n入委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天入委會主委跟副主委有講\n但是現在我們這邊申請案子非常多有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛講的是根本要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍\n這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的\n你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3例以後 全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的 我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除 再擴大一點好不好 不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法 已經會送到委員會去審查了\n我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事物不要讓民眾來承受這種事不能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍現在沒有這樣的案例啊\n你現在不是現在進行事嗎?現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情?所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎?我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們沒有法將單要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理?\n要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把他處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有是不是這樣我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣\n我們後面還會有這個相關的業務報告的時間然後修法我們也都會尊重那請劉副長也我們都花點時間大家彼此討論OK好不好不好意思謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.792 --> 00:28.685\n好劉部長有請抱歉抱歉我以為你要請署長所以我就先下去抱歉抱歉張委員好來我來問你一個可能是這個世紀啊最大的烏龍最大的藻民而且應該是要國賠保定4月2號移民署啊寄了一萬多份的這個通知給這個陸配啊\n\n00:30.510 --> 00:39.563\n結果搞了一個大烏龍竟然有些子女啊根本就沒有大陸的這個戶籍啊你們全部把它寄出去對不對\n\n00:43.680 --> 01:12.733\n他們沒有來報告這件事嗎我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則\n\n01:14.533 --> 01:32.361\n那事後移民署跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉\n\n01:42.105 --> 02:10.166\n你慎重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,阿沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉\n\n02:11.047 --> 02:21.076\n你再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛對不對日夜更嚴重啊,保證你這個從4月,我告訴你這個比較嚴重你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西,本來就沒東西嘛你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠\n\n02:33.148 --> 02:52.723\n報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會\n\n02:53.964 --> 03:22.126\n來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認\n\n03:23.607 --> 03:40.275\n那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件\n\n03:49.760 --> 04:17.666\n但是呢他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身份證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍呢跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身份證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色\n\n04:18.186 --> 04:26.891\n也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生\n\n04:46.743 --> 05:14.191\n這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成了困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委還有辦公室解釋嘛\n\n05:15.191 --> 05:35.614\n他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸會主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸委會都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔\n\n05:36.234 --> 05:49.627\n第二要求我是剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說欸張其凱你有你就要回大陸去\n\n05:57.902 --> 06:23.190\n陸委主委也承認啊他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話或者到移民署到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講連找哪個地方的公安你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是雖然你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後那你就回大陸去\n\n06:24.190 --> 06:46.432\n就造成這樣一個擾民嘛,這是一個很大問題,所以我具體,我先跟你講一下這這個事情很嚴重,老實講,這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去,全台灣幾十萬陸配很多家裡面那個,兵荒馬亂,雞尾狗跳的那可能如果被你們註銷,或者要驅逐出境,那就變兩岸的人球,台中也沒有了嘛\n\n06:47.998 --> 07:17.305\n多少家庭因為這樣子最近這一個多月將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化多大一個擔心我列幾個個案來給你聽我大概搜到幾百件裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥一個年輕的他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了\n\n07:18.682 --> 07:43.329\n連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟\n\n07:45.066 --> 07:49.887\n一共啊你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣再繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配下次又是哪個族群\n\n08:13.052 --> 08:17.575\n到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了\n\n08:43.120 --> 08:55.992\n你的一個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒他說哈囉30年前欸正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是一個台灣人啊\n\n09:07.248 --> 09:29.118\n結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明,不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴,是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的啦我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案我們明確的規定\n\n09:31.121 --> 09:59.826\n民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第一件在我剛才說的\n\n10:01.229 --> 10:19.152\n陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有護金嗎好不好你不要常常跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你所以縣市之外你所以應該去一個函\n\n10:31.581 --> 10:44.537\n你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函說我之前走不上去了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了\n\n10:49.666 --> 11:04.815\n時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎\n\n11:07.504 --> 11:15.291\n我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專情隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨\n\n11:25.400 --> 11:50.790\n4月21號以後就有接種21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便\n\n11:51.690 --> 11:55.232\n或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們\n\n12:08.837 --> 12:33.899\n還有另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條\n\n12:35.840 --> 12:50.240\n請求權時效的消滅的部分呢他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考\n\n12:52.182 --> 13:12.760\n政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講這個也不公平是我想正我的責任我剛剛跟你講但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊\n\n13:14.242 --> 13:36.125\n你現在賭職你們在21年前就賭職了啊是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理你應該用一個比較完整比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了我們提了你們現在的六大排除你說你們解決方案就六大排除嗎太窄化了你現在解決了大概是打折打折打折再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛你就把他全部放寬\n\n13:37.406 --> 13:58.879\n全部放寬不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範怎麼會不符合呢那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任我們提出修法我們非常負責任我就是在你執行之前的民國九十三年的三類一號之前的一定用拒絕的方式不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的那在這個時間點之後的範圍我們就授權由\n\n14:01.823 --> 14:23.448\n入委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天入委會主委跟副主委有講\n\n14:23.968 --> 14:52.128\n但是現在我們這邊申請案子非常多有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛講的是根本要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍\n\n14:53.115 --> 15:13.684\n這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的\n\n15:16.425 --> 15:34.644\n你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3例以後全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除再擴大一點好不好不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法已經會送到委員會去審查了\n\n15:35.866 --> 15:59.528\n我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事物不要讓民眾來承受這種事不能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍現在沒有這樣的案例啊\n\n16:00.749 --> 16:28.540\n你現在不是現在進行事嗎?現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情?所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎?我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們沒有法將單要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理?\n\n16:29.860 --> 16:49.349\n要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把他處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有是不是這樣我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣\n\n16:51.941 --> 16:55.202\n我們後面還會有這個相關的業務報告的時間然後修法我們也都會尊重那請劉副長也我們都花點時間大家彼此討論OK好不好不好意思謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.792,"end":28.685,"text":"好 劉部長有請抱歉抱歉 我以為你要請署長所以我就先下去 抱歉抱歉張委員好來 我來問你一個可能是這個世紀啊最大的烏龍 最大的藻民而且應該是要國賠保定4月2號 移民署啊寄了一萬多份的這個通知給這個陸配啊"},{"start":30.51,"end":39.563,"text":"結果搞了一個大烏龍竟然有些子女啊根本就沒有大陸的這個戶籍啊你們全部把它寄出去對不對"},{"start":43.68,"end":72.733,"text":"他們沒有來報告這件事嗎我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則"},{"start":74.533,"end":92.361,"text":"那事後移民署跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉"},{"start":102.105,"end":130.166,"text":"你慎重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,阿沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉"},{"start":131.047,"end":141.076,"text":"你再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛對不對日夜更嚴重啊,保證你這個從4月,我告訴你這個比較嚴重你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西,本來就沒東西嘛你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠"},{"start":153.148,"end":172.723,"text":"報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會"},{"start":173.964,"end":202.126,"text":"來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認"},{"start":203.607,"end":220.275,"text":"那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件"},{"start":229.76,"end":257.666,"text":"但是呢他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身份證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍呢跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身份證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色"},{"start":258.186,"end":266.891,"text":"也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生"},{"start":286.743,"end":314.191,"text":"這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成了困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委還有辦公室解釋嘛"},{"start":315.191,"end":335.614,"text":"他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好 例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸會主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸委會都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔"},{"start":336.234,"end":349.627,"text":"第二要求我是剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說欸張其凱你有你就要回大陸去"},{"start":357.902,"end":383.19,"text":"陸委主委也承認啊 他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話 或者到移民署 到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講 連找哪個地方的公安 你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是 雖然你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙 我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊 現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後 那你就回大陸去"},{"start":384.19,"end":406.432,"text":"就造成這樣一個擾民嘛,這是一個很大問題,所以我具體,我先跟你講一下這這個事情很嚴重,老實講,這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去,全台灣幾十萬陸配很多家裡面那個,兵荒馬亂,雞尾狗跳的那可能如果被你們註銷,或者要驅逐出境,那就變兩岸的人球,台中也沒有了嘛"},{"start":407.998,"end":437.305,"text":"多少家庭因為這樣子 最近這一個多月 將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化 多大一個擔心我列幾個個案來給你聽我大概搜到幾百件 裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的 不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥 一個年輕的 他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了"},{"start":438.682,"end":463.329,"text":"連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟"},{"start":465.066,"end":469.887,"text":"一共啊 你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦 工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內 還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的 網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣再繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配 下次又是哪個族群"},{"start":493.052,"end":497.575,"text":"到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了"},{"start":523.12,"end":535.992,"text":"你的一個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒 他說哈囉30年前欸 正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是一個台灣人啊"},{"start":547.248,"end":569.118,"text":"結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明,不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴,是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的啦我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案我們明確的規定"},{"start":571.121,"end":599.826,"text":"民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第一件在我剛才說的"},{"start":601.229,"end":619.152,"text":"陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有護金嗎好不好你不要常常跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你所以縣市之外你所以應該去一個函"},{"start":631.581,"end":644.537,"text":"你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函說我之前走不上去了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了"},{"start":649.666,"end":664.815,"text":"時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":667.504,"end":675.291,"text":"我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專情隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨"},{"start":685.4,"end":710.79,"text":"4月21號以後就有接種21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便"},{"start":711.69,"end":715.232,"text":"或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們"},{"start":728.837,"end":753.899,"text":"還有另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條"},{"start":755.84,"end":770.24,"text":"請求權時效的消滅的部分呢他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考"},{"start":772.182,"end":792.76,"text":"政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講這個也不公平是我想正我的責任我剛剛跟你講但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊"},{"start":794.242,"end":816.125,"text":"你現在賭職 你們在21年前就賭職了啊是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理 你應該用一個比較完整比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了 我們提了你們現在的六大排除 你說你們解決方案就六大排除嗎太窄化了 你現在解決了大概是打折打折打折 再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛 你就把他全部放寬"},{"start":817.406,"end":838.879,"text":"全部放寬不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範怎麼會不符合呢那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任我們提出修法我們非常負責任我就是在你執行之前的民國九十三年的三類一號之前的一定用拒絕的方式不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的那在這個時間點之後的範圍我們就授權由"},{"start":841.823,"end":863.448,"text":"入委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天入委會主委跟副主委有講"},{"start":863.968,"end":892.128,"text":"但是現在我們這邊申請案子非常多有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛講的是根本要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍"},{"start":893.115,"end":913.684,"text":"這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的"},{"start":916.425,"end":934.644,"text":"你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3例以後 全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的 我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除 再擴大一點好不好 不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法 已經會送到委員會去審查了"},{"start":935.866,"end":959.528,"text":"我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事物不要讓民眾來承受這種事不能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍現在沒有這樣的案例啊"},{"start":960.749,"end":988.54,"text":"你現在不是現在進行事嗎?現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情?所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎?我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們沒有法將單要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理?"},{"start":989.86,"end":1009.349,"text":"要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把他處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有是不是這樣我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":1011.941,"end":1015.202,"text":"我們後面還會有這個相關的業務報告的時間然後修法我們也都會尊重那請劉副長也我們都花點時間大家彼此討論OK好不好不好意思謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":919,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時49分）部長，不然你上台好了。"],["主席：好，劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉！抱歉！我以為你要請署長，所以我就先下去了，抱歉！抱歉！張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：來，我來問一個可能是這個世紀最大的烏龍和擾民，而且應該是要國賠。部長，4月2日移民署寄了一萬多份的通知給陸配，結果搞了一個大烏龍，竟然有些子女根本就沒有大陸的戶籍，你們全部都把它寄出去，對不對？他們沒有跟你報告這件事情嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告一下，應該是這樣講，我們叫「陸配」啦！陸配的子女是因為他跟我們臺灣人結婚之後，因為當時他沒有任何的身分證，他可能是1歲或是3歲以下，所以他就跟著媽媽或爸爸一起回來臺灣，所以我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候，就一併寄發了，我們是以這樣為原則，事後……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！"],["劉部長世芳：事後移民署跟我報告之後，我們有請移民署要再跟當時並沒有任何中國身分證或是中國戶籍證明的這些人再說明清楚。可能我們說明的不是非常清楚，所以我在這邊要先跟當時並沒有任何中國身分證證件的這些年輕的臺灣國民說聲抱歉！"],["張委員啓楷：你鄭重的跟他們道歉嘛！對不對？第一個，我們先把這個大烏龍、大擾民弄清楚，部長今天也清楚的道歉了。這個事情為什麼會發生？就是這些年輕的小孩是跟陸配掛在一起的，之前移民署跟陸委會要寄出這個通知前，欸！你是要他補放棄大陸戶籍，但是他本來就沒有嘛！所以這是政府失職了。我進一步的問，那這要怎麼解決？除了你今天道歉，你應該要再補寄一個通知跟他們講，這是我們之前作業疏忽了，對不對？第二個更嚴重，部長，我跟你講，這個更嚴重。"],["劉部長世芳：請講。"],["張委員啓楷：你4月2日就寄了，到今天已經3個禮拜了，有些人可能已經回到大陸了，對不對？結果他拿不到放棄大陸戶籍這個東西，因為這個東西本來就沒有，是你無中生有，那這個要不要國賠？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我先跟委員說明一下，剛剛你提到的部分，雖然他當時並沒有中國大陸的身分證件，但是他是在中國大陸出生，這跟原生地在臺灣確實還是不太一樣，所以我們這一次是由陸委會來指導移民署，在處理有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面，有六項可以用具結來替代繳付除籍證明。就是在中國大陸出生，學齡前、也就是未滿7歲以前返臺定居主張從未在陸設籍經移民署確認者，也就是說，我們還是請他要把主張沒有在大陸設籍的證明讓移民署確認。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你先講完。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你先聽我說明。我要這樣提的原因是，可能委員跟大家都忘了一件事情，那就是前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人，他也是類似剛才委員所提的這個樣態，但是他的媽媽在沒有告知這位軍人的狀況下，幫他在中國大陸申請了身分證件，但是他自己跟國防部講，他不要中國大陸的身分證件，所以變成我們知道有這樣的狀態後，也開了一個委員會來確認他的主張。因為我們臺灣的戶籍和國籍跟中國大陸是互斥的，只能有一個，他希望維持擁有臺灣的身分證和戶籍，所以我們就請他用具結的方式，然後國防部仍然還是請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色。也就是說，因為有這樣的案例發生之後，才讓我們警覺到說，其實我們應該要全面性的清查這樣的狀態，但是這會發生一些困擾，就是你剛剛所說的，也許20年來他從來都沒有離開過臺灣，但是他的父親或母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件？我們也必須要他來跟我們確認清楚。處理清楚之後，大概就不會再有其他的滋擾事件發生。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個大烏龍跟大擾民最根本的是什麼？你剛剛已經道歉了嘛！你根本就不應該寄這個信給他們嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我是說對他們造成困擾，可是我剛才也舉例職業軍人這個案例了啊！因為有職業軍人這個案例，所以我們還是需要做這樣的處理，這樣才能全面的清查。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你剛才已經道歉了，要矯正這個大烏龍，第一個，你要寄出去之前就應該要先查清楚。"],["劉部長世芳：我們接受委員的批評。"],["張委員啓楷：陸委會的主委有來我的辦公室解釋，他說你們的手上都有資料，你們寄出去之前應該就知道了，例如：劉世芳有大陸的戶籍，所以你要放棄；但是張啓楷沒有，你怎麼可以寄給張啓楷？陸委會主委也承認啊！所以第一個，這是一個烏龍。","第二個，他明確的講，你們手上都有這個資料，移民署和陸委會都有嘛！對不對？你要先清查過啊！就是因為你沒有清查過嘛！所以我才會做第二個要求，第二個要求就是我剛才講的，你寄給人家，明明他沒有大陸的戶籍，你寄去已經是擾民了，如果他已經過去大陸了，花了機票錢卻沒有拿到，你要國賠，這是一個。","第二個更重要了，從現在開始，舉證的責任在你，不是你隨便寄一個通知說張啓楷有，所以我就要回大陸去申請，陸委會主委也承認啊！他說你們是有辦法查到的，只要一通電話或是到移民署、陸委會，我就可以清楚的知道我在大陸有沒有戶籍。他還跟我講，連找哪一個地方的公安，你們都可以幫忙，問題是這段時間你們都沒有做。"],["劉部長世芳：陸委會願意幫忙，我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理。"],["張委員啓楷：前一陣子要打電話到移民署都打不進去，打進去了移民署就說，那你就回大陸申請，造成擾民，這是一個很大的問題。我先具體的跟你講一下，這個事情很嚴重，老實說，這是人間悲劇，你不曉得你們那一萬多封的信寄出去後，全臺灣幾十萬的陸配，很多人的家裡都兵荒馬亂、雞飛狗跳，欸！如果身分被你們註銷或是驅逐出境，那就變成兩岸的人球，因為他在大陸也沒有戶籍，最近這1個月的時間，有多少家庭因為這個樣子而產生多大的變化或擔心，我唸幾個個案給你聽。","我大概收到幾百件，裡面有好幾件都是你們民進黨自己的支持者，你們挖的不是只有臺灣民主法治這個根，你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了。有一個年輕的青鳥留言，這個你在網路上都可以查得到。他說我從「大罷免剛開始就去連署了」，連二階段的連署他都參加了，連他都擔心那個門檻太高會不會無法通過，結果昨天他說他完全改變他的立場，因為「我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書」，他說「不是我們辦不到，可是當初我們來臺灣的時候是依法辦理，三、四十年前資料都給你們了，是你們政府沒有保存好，結果你現在要我們自己承擔，還要去大陸申辦」。他說：政府有沒有想到，先不要講回去申辦工作要請假，要請假欸！你還限制他要在3個月內。還有機票錢，這個全部都要人家自己負擔。他還講，如果有一個是反共的，網路上一查，他會不會就回不來了？所以他最後做了一個結論，他說：我們可以繼續這樣搞分化嗎？瘋狂起來不分敵我，今天分化中配，下次又是哪一個族群？到時候我還要跟你們一起大連署反共嗎？","另外一位年輕人怎麼說？他說：我媽媽已經嫁來臺灣三十幾年了，1990年初要來臺灣依親，還一定要到香港的中國大陸災胞救濟總會申請中國除籍證明。那個時候可能連海基會都沒有，他們的證件都給你了，結果你現在？都已經過了30年，你一個掛號信就說移民署沒有資料，要趕快補一個除籍證明，欸！拜託！他說：Hello，30年前欸！正本都被收走了，你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍，然後已經除籍了。他說：我媽媽拿臺灣的身分證、護照，繳健保費，繳稅繳了三十幾年，他現在就是一個臺灣人，結果今天政府隨便寄一只信過去，就要他們趕快提出證明，不然3個月後就會被趕出臺灣。","這裡面說的都是你們民進黨自己的支持者，都是青鳥，你這不是挖到自己的根嘛！來，部長，我們做一個最具體的，台灣民眾黨已經提出「兩岸人民關係條例」的修正草案，我們要明確的規定民國93年3月1日修法之前就已經來臺定居的，因為這個太久了。21年前，部長，包括你，我們2個人認識這麼久了，你要找出21年前的東西應該很難找得到，所以在這個時間點之前，全部都改成一律都是可以拒絕的，之後的，現在陸委會有提出六大類可以排除，對不對？如果是93年3月1日之後的範圍或是方法，你們可以自己訂，之前的全部都用拒絕的方式來解決。","第二個就是我剛才講的，陸委會主委跟副主委有來我的辦公室，他說你們都有資料啊！所以現在任何的陸配或是第二代只要到移民署，只要到陸委會去，你們要幫他查出到底在大陸有沒有戶籍，好不好？你不要讓他跑了一趟卻又辦不到。第三個是我剛剛講的補破網，部長，你說你已經道歉了，所以要如何補正？你除了宣示之外，是否應該要再次發函？因為你給人家一個函就造成了人家的困擾，是不是應該在一個禮拜內由移民署再次發函，說明之前寄的函文錯誤，你也已經道歉了，所以他們不用回大陸去，這是第三點。第四個，你要求他們3個月內要辦完，從你4月2日發出去到現在已經3個禮拜，時間太短了，要不要把這個時間延長為2年？另外也有人反映，移民署的電話常常都打不通，在提供一個懶人包告訴大家該怎麼辦的同時，能不能在1個月內於北中南舉辦大型的說明會，向民眾說清楚該怎麼辦？可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告張委員，我先從第五項開始回答，現在不是只有移民署，包括各地的國境警察或專勤隊都有開放，因此，從4月21日我們開始開放申請到目前為止，根據我的了解，在電話方面比較沒有這樣的抱怨。"],["張委員啓楷：4月21日以後就有解決了？"],["劉部長世芳：4月21日我們與陸委會已經同時將必須具結的6項樣態公布在網站上，包括你剛剛所提的，如果是年滿70歲或從104年1月1日起都未曾去過大陸，其實這樣的樣態就已經不需要再回去中國大陸辦理。因此，對於你所提的，無論是不方便或是不能夠，譬如政治的因素，像是文化界的富察先生，我們都已經將那個部分列進去了。現在我們要處理的是不願，至於不願的理由，我們也提出若是屬於低收入戶有購買機票的困難就可以告訴我們，另外就是屬於重大傷病，現在根本不方便走動，我們也都將這個部分列進去了。但是，即使我們做了這樣的宣告，還是要以他們來告知我們是屬於哪裡的不方便為原則。","同時你也提到，這個法律在二、三十年前就訂了，為什麼現在才執行？我們也了解這個部分，所以我們也去問過，在行政執行的部分就是按照行政程序法第一百三十一條，請求權時效消滅的部分，如果它的請求權是義務的話，不是請求權時效消滅，而是權利的消滅，針對這個部分，我們也查過憲法上相關解釋的規範。","以上幾點，提供給張委員參考。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這是政府在民國93年3月1日修法後實施的新辦法，第一個，時間真的是太久了。第二個，責任在你啊！你怠忽職守，現在又把全部的責任甩鍋給民眾負擔，老實講，這樣也不公平啊！"],["劉部長世芳：是，我想這是政府的責任，但是，如果現在沒有做就是我們瀆職啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你們在21年前就瀆職了啊！是不是？現在你卻甩鍋給民眾處理，是不是應該採取一個比較完整、比較能讓民眾解決問題的方法？你說你們現在的解決方案就是六大排除項目，太窄化了！你們現在解決的大概是打折、打折、打折、再打折，只解決了一小部分的人嘛！因此，你應該要全部放寬，不要僅窄化於這六大類的放寬項目。"],["劉部長世芳：這樣並不符合法律上的規範。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼會不符合呢？不然我們就修法啊！台灣民眾黨非常負責任，我們就提出修法。針對民國93年3月1日之前的，一律採用具結的方式，不是只有六大類，全部都用具結的方式，至於在這個時間點之後的範圍，我們就授權由陸委會及內政部訂定標準。但是剛才我也明確講過，民眾清楚的反映，你的六類排除範圍太窄、太小了，我們應該要照顧全部的民眾。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你可以去問一下，這兩天在移民署辦理的情況其實都還算是很順利。如果有任何的疑慮，我們都還是會充分的說明。"],["張委員啓楷：那天陸委會的主委及副主委也講了，現在我們這邊收到的陳情其實都還非常多啦！"],["劉部長世芳：但這是從星期一才開始辦理。"],["張委員啓楷：有任何疑難雜症進來，只要他們有任何的困擾，我們現在都把案子轉到移民署及陸委會，希望你們能將速度加快。"],["劉部長世芳：我們一定要幫忙解決，但是一定要符合兩岸人民關係條例。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛我講的是要根本解決的方案，第一個，不要再發生去了找不到人或電話打不通的事情，而且要幫忙解決問題，特別是陸委會主委給我的承諾，只要去了就可以馬上查出在大陸到底有沒有戶籍。這個在之前是一團亂啊！你們負有舉證的責任，而且你們具有公權力，應該查得到嘛！因此，這個要讓全國民眾知道，從今天開始只要去移民署、去陸委會就可以清楚知道自己在大陸到底有沒有戶籍，如果有戶籍的話，甚至是應該去哪個公安局辦理，這些都是陸委會主委承諾的事，我們明確地把它講清楚。","第二個要根本解決的問題，也就是我剛剛講的時間太久遠，21年前了！除了你允許的六大類具結對象，應該針對民國93年3月1日之前的全面允許具結，至於之後的就授權由你們將它訂定清楚，將這個六大類的排除再擴大一點，好不好？共同來解決問題，我們會提出修法也會送到委員會審查。部長，一起來努力！"],["劉部長世芳：我們來檢討改進。"],["張委員啓楷：因為這件事情的影響真的很大！"],["劉部長世芳：我們來檢討改進，但是基於法律的一致性，還是應該要一致執行比較好，不能有破口及天窗。"],["張委員啓楷：對，但是政府自己的失職及疏忽，不該讓民眾承受這樣的代價。"],["主席：好啦！委員……"],["張委員啓楷：那是一個家破人亡、甚至可能變成兩岸人球……"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有造成家破人亡啊！"],["主席：委員，我們後面還會有……"],["張委員啓楷：如果你們取消了他們的戶籍……"],["劉部長世芳：現在沒有這樣的案例啊！"],["張委員啓楷：現在不是現在進行式嗎？現在有多少家庭擔心這件事情？"],["主席：委員，時間……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你可以明確宣示，不會取消任何人的戶籍、不會把人驅逐出去嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：對不起，我們是依法辦事、我們是依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！剛才告訴你，人家有這個疑慮，你又說沒有！現在我要你保證，你又不能保證！所以這個問題是存在的，我們就應該要解決這個問題啊！"],["劉部長世芳：就像我們處理陸配的問題，如果在陸配中有人帶著特殊任務而來，你要不要處理？要不要處理？"],["張委員啓楷：你把現在要處理的事情處理好，如果有特殊案例就特殊處理嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，如果我們一律用具結的方式，反而是包庇及姑息。"],["張委員啓楷：你們把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的，是不是這樣？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我們已經講得非常清楚，其實我們非常尊重，但臺灣是一個有法律的地方，我們是按照法律行事。"],["張委員啓楷：現在很多陸配抗議的是什麼？你們把每個人都當作有問題在處理嘛！是不是這樣？要將心比心啊！"],["主席：不好意思，我要打斷兩位……"],["劉部長世芳：張委員，我們還是要依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：有任何問題，我們就來解決問題，謝謝。"],["主席：報告各位委員，我們後面還會有相關業務報告的時間，對於修法也都會予以尊重，請劉部長與我們多花一點時間，大家彼此互相討論，好不好？不好意思啊！謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。","下一位請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}}