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{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 135.31, \"end\": 135.431, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 135.431, \"end\": 135.591, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 135.591, \"end\": 135.751, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 135.751, \"end\": 135.871, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 135.871, \"end\": 135.891, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 137.572, \"end\": 159.688, \"text\": \"那我想要問一下我們司法院的態度在這個事情上我們大家對於打詐這麼重要而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手因為只有車手他才會實際出現所以整個檢調警察的一個辦案要怎麼把這個車手抓起來然後由車手來自白後順藤摸瓜才能破獲詐騙集團\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 137.572, \"end\": 137.692, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 137.692, \"end\": 137.812, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 137.812, \"end\": 137.912, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 137.912, \"end\": 138.012, \"score\": 0.392}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 138.012, \"end\": 138.253, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 138.253, 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\"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 405.087, \"end\": 405.107, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,254 --> 00:00:12,336\n好謝謝主席那我們是有請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長司法院刑事廳廳長也請好部長以及副秘書長廳長\n\n2\n00:00:22,833 --> 00:00:47,012\n那事實上我上一次來司法委員會就是在講關於現在詐騙集團車手犯罪然後無法被重判這件事情事實上我已經在上一次的諮詢我們知道法務部的立場法務部還是希望車手是共犯嘛至少也是幫助犯所以必須基於現在規定的打詐的專法他是需要被重判的\n\n3\n00:00:47,532 --> 00:01:01,137\n但是看起來實務上判不重那判不重咧現在就產生了一個原因就是說因為基於這個詐欺危害防治條例然後有說你自白而且繳交犯罪所得的話就可以減刑\n\n4\n00:01:02,099 --> 00:01:19,223\n那因為自白可以繳交犯罪所得,結果變成詐騙集團的車手咧主要有一個一貫性的說法,就是說我被抓到六號,我可能會說我是出犯好,出犯當然就已經有減刑了那也有可能會說咧,我不罰所得,我這案子我當詐騙五十萬我說我就賺一萬而已,我就遭這罪,去拿我賺一萬塊\n\n5\n00:01:29,045 --> 00:01:55,857\n那我的不法所得到底是五十萬還是一萬這件事情看起來現在司法院有朝向要把他認定一萬是不法所得甚至有些車手還大辣的說我沒有拿到所以我沒有不法所得所以他也不用繳交不法所得然後他卻後來卻得到了一個輕判所以我們看到現在好多車手可能紅牌六個月可能紅牌幾個月\n\n6\n00:01:58,078 --> 00:02:15,891\n吵吵就了事了那我知道我們現在司法院5月14號還要針對這個不罰所得的認定然後要開會討論那我現在感受到的法院是不是要朝向不罰所得是以他實際的收入這一件事情來看\n\n7\n00:02:17,572 --> 00:02:39,688\n那我想要問一下我們司法院的態度在這個事情上我們大家對於打詐這麼重要而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手因為只有車手他才會實際出現所以整個檢調警察的一個辦案要怎麼把這個車手抓起來然後由車手來自白後順藤摸瓜才能破獲詐騙集團\n\n8\n00:02:41,209 --> 00:02:53,723\n或者是才能去找一些相對應的金流結果看起來車手無法被重判這件事已經變成打詐的最後的一個難關我認為司法院現在的態度是怎樣呢\n\n9\n00:02:54,684 --> 00:03:20,502\n好那個謝謝委員垂尋關心這件事情那首先第一個跟那個委員報告就是說因為司法院主責的是司法行政那有關於說在個案中法律怎麼適用這個是屬於法官的那個權責那司法院沒有辦法就是這不是我們全國我當然知道說個案有個案法官但是我們這一件已經有法官去申請這個大法庭的統一解釋\n\n10\n00:03:22,643 --> 00:03:39,613\n所以這個統一解釋完以後就會拘束很多法官他們的裁量權嘛所以我現在也在我也會玩樂啦這個解釋會怎麼發展說真的我不知道但是我們司法院的立場我們到底認為詐騙集團這個車手應該要重判還是就是像這樣有輕判的機會\n\n11\n00:03:47,762 --> 00:04:09,702\n那個跟那個委員報告一下就是說有關於那個法律的那個適用呢就是在那個法院端的那個最高法院他事實上是因為審計制度構造的關係就是所以說他最後那個權威性事實上是在那個大法庭他所做的這個解釋啊然後目前\n\n12\n00:04:11,063 --> 00:04:39,739\n因為就是法律的適用在法官之間有分歧就如委員對這件事情了解得非常清楚就是有法官他主張說是個別的犯罪那有些是主張說是全部的要全部繳交之後才能夠減刑那因為現在就是因為有產生的歧義所以說那個大法庭剛剛辯論終結完那定在五月的時候會做一個宣判做一個統一大法庭要宣判了啦但是我要跟司法院我還是要呼籲啦\n\n13\n00:04:40,419 --> 00:05:03,804\n事實上我們在思考這件事情的時候我們都太重視被告也就是車手這個人我們卻忽略了被害者當被害者他被詐騙50萬、100萬這件事情車手所參與的犯罪當然就是50萬、100萬啊怎麼可能車手他所參與的是他後來拿到的報酬50萬、100萬、100萬都可以這個跟我們老百姓\n\n14\n00:05:10,943 --> 00:05:29,215\n認為的詐騙的一個要件這個當然涉及不法所得的計算但是我覺得我們司法院還是要到底站在什麼本位在思考這件事被告人權很重要但是被害者他的損失我認為這是更重要的\n\n15\n00:05:30,095 --> 00:05:49,356\n所以不法所得的這一個認定上,到底他這人就被詐騙,那不要說詐騙集團,這些詐騙集團可能外靠黨騙了我,那你不可以讓那個車手去負擔整個詐騙集團,可是至少在每一個詐騙的個案中,他的不法所得,就一定是被騙的總額嘛\n\n16\n00:05:53,969 --> 00:06:07,779\n我也沒辦法干涉每一個個案的法官只是說我要透過這個機會我覺得要講給社會聽因為只有社會形成壓力法官也許才聽得見不然我們每個人我們又沒辦法跟法官對話\n\n17\n00:06:09,670 --> 00:06:27,552\n那法官也有他的一個認識用法可是我看檢察官不這麼認為檢察官每一次都針對車手被輕判然後被不法所得我看起來檢察官都有上訴但是就要去讀法官這個法官可能比較站在被告這個法官怎樣讀法官就這樣這樣不好\n\n18\n00:06:29,878 --> 00:06:45,107\n我們現在打詐是台灣一個很重要的一個課題那這個課題不能把打詐都讓基層的警員基層的檢察官時尚法官也是扮演很重要的一環好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3254\t12336\t好 謝謝主席那我們是有請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長司法院刑事廳廳長也請好 部長以及副秘書長 廳長\n22833\t47012\t那事實上我上一次來司法委員會就是在講關於現在詐騙集團車手犯罪然後無法被重判這件事情事實上我已經在上一次的諮詢我們知道法務部的立場法務部還是希望車手是共犯嘛至少也是幫助犯所以必須基於現在規定的打詐的專法他是需要被重判的\n47532\t61137\t但是看起來實務上判不重那判不重咧現在就產生了一個原因就是說因為基於這個詐欺危害防治條例然後有說你自白而且繳交犯罪所得的話就可以減刑\n62099\t79223\t那因為自白可以繳交犯罪所得,結果變成詐騙集團的車手咧主要有一個一貫性的說法,就是說我被抓到六號,我可能會說我是出犯好,出犯當然就已經有減刑了那也有可能會說咧,我不罰所得,我這案子我當詐騙五十萬我說我就賺一萬而已,我就遭這罪,去拿我賺一萬塊\n89045\t115857\t那我的不法所得到底是五十萬還是一萬這件事情看起來現在司法院有朝向要把他認定一萬是不法所得甚至有些車手還大辣的說我沒有拿到所以我沒有不法所得所以他也不用繳交不法所得然後他卻後來卻得到了一個輕判所以我們看到現在好多車手可能紅牌六個月可能紅牌幾個月\n118078\t135891\t吵吵就了事了那我知道我們現在司法院5月14號還要針對這個不罰所得的認定然後要開會討論那我現在感受到的法院是不是要朝向不罰所得是以他實際的收入這一件事情來看\n137572\t159688\t那我想要問一下我們司法院的態度在這個事情上我們大家對於打詐這麼重要而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手因為只有車手他才會實際出現所以整個檢調警察的一個辦案要怎麼把這個車手抓起來然後由車手來自白後順藤摸瓜才能破獲詐騙集團\n161209\t173723\t或者是才能去找一些相對應的金流結果看起來車手無法被重判這件事已經變成打詐的最後的一個難關我認為司法院現在的態度是怎樣呢\n174684\t200502\t好 那個謝謝委員垂尋關心這件事情那首先第一個跟那個委員報告就是說因為司法院主責的是司法行政那有關於說在個案中法律怎麼適用這個是屬於法官的那個權責那司法院沒有辦法 就是這不是我們全國我當然知道說個案有個案法官但是我們這一件已經有法官去申請這個大法庭的統一解釋\n202643\t219613\t所以這個統一解釋完以後就會拘束很多法官他們的裁量權嘛所以我現在也在 我也會玩樂啦這個解釋會怎麼發展說真的我不知道但是我們司法院的立場我們到底認為詐騙集團這個車手應該要重判還是就是像這樣有輕判的機會\n227762\t249702\t那個跟那個委員報告一下就是說有關於那個法律的那個適用呢就是在那個法院端的那個最高法院他事實上是因為審計制度構造的關係就是所以說他最後那個權威性事實上是在那個大法庭他所做的這個解釋啊然後目前\n251063\t279739\t因為就是法律的適用在法官之間有分歧就如委員對這件事情了解得非常清楚就是有法官他主張說是個別的犯罪那有些是主張說是全部的要全部繳交之後才能夠減刑那因為現在就是因為有產生的歧義所以說那個大法庭剛剛辯論終結完那定在五月的時候會做一個宣判做一個統一大法庭要宣判了啦但是我要跟司法院我還是要呼籲啦\n280419\t303804\t事實上我們在思考這件事情的時候我們都太重視被告也就是車手這個人我們卻忽略了被害者當被害者他被詐騙50萬、100萬這件事情車手所參與的犯罪當然就是50萬、100萬啊怎麼可能車手他所參與的是他後來拿到的報酬50萬、100萬、100萬都可以這個跟我們老百姓\n310943\t329215\t認為的詐騙的一個要件這個當然涉及不法所得的計算但是我覺得我們司法院還是要到底站在什麼本位在思考這件事被告人權很重要但是被害者他的損失我認為這是更重要的\n330095\t349356\t所以不法所得的這一個認定上,到底他這人就被詐騙,那不要說詐騙集團,這些詐騙集團可能外靠黨騙了我,那你不可以讓那個車手去負擔整個詐騙集團,可是至少在每一個詐騙的個案中,他的不法所得,就一定是被騙的總額嘛\n353969\t367779\t我也沒辦法干涉每一個個案的法官只是說我要透過這個機會 我覺得要講給社會聽因為只有社會形成壓力 法官也許才聽得見不然我們每個人 我們又沒辦法跟法官對話\n369670\t387552\t那法官也有他的一個認識用法可是我看檢察官不這麼認為檢察官每一次都針對車手被輕判然後被不法所得我看起來檢察官都有上訴但是就要去讀法官這個法官可能比較站在被告這個法官怎樣讀法官就這樣這樣不好\n389878\t405107\t我們現在打詐是台灣一個很重要的一個課題那這個課題不能把打詐都讓基層的警員 基層的檢察官 時尚法官也是扮演很重要的一環 好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席那我們是有請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長司法院刑事廳廳長也請好 部長以及副秘書長 廳長\n那事實上我上一次來司法委員會就是在講關於現在詐騙集團車手犯罪然後無法被重判這件事情事實上我已經在上一次的諮詢我們知道法務部的立場法務部還是希望車手是共犯嘛至少也是幫助犯所以必須基於現在規定的打詐的專法他是需要被重判的\n但是看起來實務上判不重那判不重咧現在就產生了一個原因就是說因為基於這個詐欺危害防治條例然後有說你自白而且繳交犯罪所得的話就可以減刑\n那因為自白可以繳交犯罪所得,結果變成詐騙集團的車手咧主要有一個一貫性的說法,就是說我被抓到六號,我可能會說我是出犯好,出犯當然就已經有減刑了那也有可能會說咧,我不罰所得,我這案子我當詐騙五十萬我說我就賺一萬而已,我就遭這罪,去拿我賺一萬塊\n那我的不法所得到底是五十萬還是一萬這件事情看起來現在司法院有朝向要把他認定一萬是不法所得甚至有些車手還大辣的說我沒有拿到所以我沒有不法所得所以他也不用繳交不法所得然後他卻後來卻得到了一個輕判所以我們看到現在好多車手可能紅牌六個月可能紅牌幾個月\n吵吵就了事了那我知道我們現在司法院5月14號還要針對這個不罰所得的認定然後要開會討論那我現在感受到的法院是不是要朝向不罰所得是以他實際的收入這一件事情來看\n那我想要問一下我們司法院的態度在這個事情上我們大家對於打詐這麼重要而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手因為只有車手他才會實際出現所以整個檢調警察的一個辦案要怎麼把這個車手抓起來然後由車手來自白後順藤摸瓜才能破獲詐騙集團\n或者是才能去找一些相對應的金流結果看起來車手無法被重判這件事已經變成打詐的最後的一個難關我認為司法院現在的態度是怎樣呢\n好 那個謝謝委員垂尋關心這件事情那首先第一個跟那個委員報告就是說因為司法院主責的是司法行政那有關於說在個案中法律怎麼適用這個是屬於法官的那個權責那司法院沒有辦法 就是這不是我們全國我當然知道說個案有個案法官但是我們這一件已經有法官去申請這個大法庭的統一解釋\n所以這個統一解釋完以後就會拘束很多法官他們的裁量權嘛所以我現在也在 我也會玩樂啦這個解釋會怎麼發展說真的我不知道但是我們司法院的立場我們到底認為詐騙集團這個車手應該要重判還是就是像這樣有輕判的機會\n那個跟那個委員報告一下就是說有關於那個法律的那個適用呢就是在那個法院端的那個最高法院他事實上是因為審計制度構造的關係就是所以說他最後那個權威性事實上是在那個大法庭他所做的這個解釋啊然後目前\n因為就是法律的適用在法官之間有分歧就如委員對這件事情了解得非常清楚就是有法官他主張說是個別的犯罪那有些是主張說是全部的要全部繳交之後才能夠減刑那因為現在就是因為有產生的歧義所以說那個大法庭剛剛辯論終結完那定在五月的時候會做一個宣判做一個統一大法庭要宣判了啦但是我要跟司法院我還是要呼籲啦\n事實上我們在思考這件事情的時候我們都太重視被告也就是車手這個人我們卻忽略了被害者當被害者他被詐騙50萬、100萬這件事情車手所參與的犯罪當然就是50萬、100萬啊怎麼可能車手他所參與的是他後來拿到的報酬50萬、100萬、100萬都可以這個跟我們老百姓\n認為的詐騙的一個要件這個當然涉及不法所得的計算但是我覺得我們司法院還是要到底站在什麼本位在思考這件事被告人權很重要但是被害者他的損失我認為這是更重要的\n所以不法所得的這一個認定上,到底他這人就被詐騙,那不要說詐騙集團,這些詐騙集團可能外靠黨騙了我,那你不可以讓那個車手去負擔整個詐騙集團,可是至少在每一個詐騙的個案中,他的不法所得,就一定是被騙的總額嘛\n我也沒辦法干涉每一個個案的法官只是說我要透過這個機會 我覺得要講給社會聽因為只有社會形成壓力 法官也許才聽得見不然我們每個人 我們又沒辦法跟法官對話\n那法官也有他的一個認識用法可是我看檢察官不這麼認為檢察官每一次都針對車手被輕判然後被不法所得我看起來檢察官都有上訴但是就要去讀法官這個法官可能比較站在被告這個法官怎樣讀法官就這樣這樣不好\n我們現在打詐是台灣一個很重要的一個課題那這個課題不能把打詐都讓基層的警員 基層的檢察官 時尚法官也是扮演很重要的一環 好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.254 --> 00:12.336\n好謝謝主席那我們是有請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長司法院刑事廳廳長也請好部長以及副秘書長廳長\n\n00:22.833 --> 00:47.012\n那事實上我上一次來司法委員會就是在講關於現在詐騙集團車手犯罪然後無法被重判這件事情事實上我已經在上一次的諮詢我們知道法務部的立場法務部還是希望車手是共犯嘛至少也是幫助犯所以必須基於現在規定的打詐的專法他是需要被重判的\n\n00:47.532 --> 01:01.137\n但是看起來實務上判不重那判不重咧現在就產生了一個原因就是說因為基於這個詐欺危害防治條例然後有說你自白而且繳交犯罪所得的話就可以減刑\n\n01:02.099 --> 01:19.223\n那因為自白可以繳交犯罪所得,結果變成詐騙集團的車手咧主要有一個一貫性的說法,就是說我被抓到六號,我可能會說我是出犯好,出犯當然就已經有減刑了那也有可能會說咧,我不罰所得,我這案子我當詐騙五十萬我說我就賺一萬而已,我就遭這罪,去拿我賺一萬塊\n\n01:29.045 --> 01:55.857\n那我的不法所得到底是五十萬還是一萬這件事情看起來現在司法院有朝向要把他認定一萬是不法所得甚至有些車手還大辣的說我沒有拿到所以我沒有不法所得所以他也不用繳交不法所得然後他卻後來卻得到了一個輕判所以我們看到現在好多車手可能紅牌六個月可能紅牌幾個月\n\n01:58.078 --> 02:15.891\n吵吵就了事了那我知道我們現在司法院5月14號還要針對這個不罰所得的認定然後要開會討論那我現在感受到的法院是不是要朝向不罰所得是以他實際的收入這一件事情來看\n\n02:17.572 --> 02:39.688\n那我想要問一下我們司法院的態度在這個事情上我們大家對於打詐這麼重要而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手因為只有車手他才會實際出現所以整個檢調警察的一個辦案要怎麼把這個車手抓起來然後由車手來自白後順藤摸瓜才能破獲詐騙集團\n\n02:41.209 --> 02:53.723\n或者是才能去找一些相對應的金流結果看起來車手無法被重判這件事已經變成打詐的最後的一個難關我認為司法院現在的態度是怎樣呢\n\n02:54.684 --> 03:20.502\n好那個謝謝委員垂尋關心這件事情那首先第一個跟那個委員報告就是說因為司法院主責的是司法行政那有關於說在個案中法律怎麼適用這個是屬於法官的那個權責那司法院沒有辦法就是這不是我們全國我當然知道說個案有個案法官但是我們這一件已經有法官去申請這個大法庭的統一解釋\n\n03:22.643 --> 03:39.613\n所以這個統一解釋完以後就會拘束很多法官他們的裁量權嘛所以我現在也在我也會玩樂啦這個解釋會怎麼發展說真的我不知道但是我們司法院的立場我們到底認為詐騙集團這個車手應該要重判還是就是像這樣有輕判的機會\n\n03:47.762 --> 04:09.702\n那個跟那個委員報告一下就是說有關於那個法律的那個適用呢就是在那個法院端的那個最高法院他事實上是因為審計制度構造的關係就是所以說他最後那個權威性事實上是在那個大法庭他所做的這個解釋啊然後目前\n\n04:11.063 --> 04:39.739\n因為就是法律的適用在法官之間有分歧就如委員對這件事情了解得非常清楚就是有法官他主張說是個別的犯罪那有些是主張說是全部的要全部繳交之後才能夠減刑那因為現在就是因為有產生的歧義所以說那個大法庭剛剛辯論終結完那定在五月的時候會做一個宣判做一個統一大法庭要宣判了啦但是我要跟司法院我還是要呼籲啦\n\n04:40.419 --> 05:03.804\n事實上我們在思考這件事情的時候我們都太重視被告也就是車手這個人我們卻忽略了被害者當被害者他被詐騙50萬、100萬這件事情車手所參與的犯罪當然就是50萬、100萬啊怎麼可能車手他所參與的是他後來拿到的報酬50萬、100萬、100萬都可以這個跟我們老百姓\n\n05:10.943 --> 05:29.215\n認為的詐騙的一個要件這個當然涉及不法所得的計算但是我覺得我們司法院還是要到底站在什麼本位在思考這件事被告人權很重要但是被害者他的損失我認為這是更重要的\n\n05:30.095 --> 05:49.356\n所以不法所得的這一個認定上,到底他這人就被詐騙,那不要說詐騙集團,這些詐騙集團可能外靠黨騙了我,那你不可以讓那個車手去負擔整個詐騙集團,可是至少在每一個詐騙的個案中,他的不法所得,就一定是被騙的總額嘛\n\n05:53.969 --> 06:07.779\n我也沒辦法干涉每一個個案的法官只是說我要透過這個機會我覺得要講給社會聽因為只有社會形成壓力法官也許才聽得見不然我們每個人我們又沒辦法跟法官對話\n\n06:09.670 --> 06:27.552\n那法官也有他的一個認識用法可是我看檢察官不這麼認為檢察官每一次都針對車手被輕判然後被不法所得我看起來檢察官都有上訴但是就要去讀法官這個法官可能比較站在被告這個法官怎樣讀法官就這樣這樣不好\n\n06:29.878 --> 06:45.107\n我們現在打詐是台灣一個很重要的一個課題那這個課題不能把打詐都讓基層的警員基層的檢察官時尚法官也是扮演很重要的一環好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.254,"end":12.336,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是有請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長司法院刑事廳廳長也請好 部長以及副秘書長 廳長"},{"start":22.833,"end":47.012,"text":"那事實上我上一次來司法委員會就是在講關於現在詐騙集團車手犯罪然後無法被重判這件事情事實上我已經在上一次的諮詢我們知道法務部的立場法務部還是希望車手是共犯嘛至少也是幫助犯所以必須基於現在規定的打詐的專法他是需要被重判的"},{"start":47.532,"end":61.137,"text":"但是看起來實務上判不重那判不重咧現在就產生了一個原因就是說因為基於這個詐欺危害防治條例然後有說你自白而且繳交犯罪所得的話就可以減刑"},{"start":62.099,"end":79.223,"text":"那因為自白可以繳交犯罪所得,結果變成詐騙集團的車手咧主要有一個一貫性的說法,就是說我被抓到六號,我可能會說我是出犯好,出犯當然就已經有減刑了那也有可能會說咧,我不罰所得,我這案子我當詐騙五十萬我說我就賺一萬而已,我就遭這罪,去拿我賺一萬塊"},{"start":89.045,"end":115.857,"text":"那我的不法所得到底是五十萬還是一萬這件事情看起來現在司法院有朝向要把他認定一萬是不法所得甚至有些車手還大辣的說我沒有拿到所以我沒有不法所得所以他也不用繳交不法所得然後他卻後來卻得到了一個輕判所以我們看到現在好多車手可能紅牌六個月可能紅牌幾個月"},{"start":118.078,"end":135.891,"text":"吵吵就了事了那我知道我們現在司法院5月14號還要針對這個不罰所得的認定然後要開會討論那我現在感受到的法院是不是要朝向不罰所得是以他實際的收入這一件事情來看"},{"start":137.572,"end":159.688,"text":"那我想要問一下我們司法院的態度在這個事情上我們大家對於打詐這麼重要而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手因為只有車手他才會實際出現所以整個檢調警察的一個辦案要怎麼把這個車手抓起來然後由車手來自白後順藤摸瓜才能破獲詐騙集團"},{"start":161.209,"end":173.723,"text":"或者是才能去找一些相對應的金流結果看起來車手無法被重判這件事已經變成打詐的最後的一個難關我認為司法院現在的態度是怎樣呢"},{"start":174.684,"end":200.502,"text":"好 那個謝謝委員垂尋關心這件事情那首先第一個跟那個委員報告就是說因為司法院主責的是司法行政那有關於說在個案中法律怎麼適用這個是屬於法官的那個權責那司法院沒有辦法 就是這不是我們全國我當然知道說個案有個案法官但是我們這一件已經有法官去申請這個大法庭的統一解釋"},{"start":202.643,"end":219.613,"text":"所以這個統一解釋完以後就會拘束很多法官他們的裁量權嘛所以我現在也在 我也會玩樂啦這個解釋會怎麼發展說真的我不知道但是我們司法院的立場我們到底認為詐騙集團這個車手應該要重判還是就是像這樣有輕判的機會"},{"start":227.762,"end":249.702,"text":"那個跟那個委員報告一下就是說有關於那個法律的那個適用呢就是在那個法院端的那個最高法院他事實上是因為審計制度構造的關係就是所以說他最後那個權威性事實上是在那個大法庭他所做的這個解釋啊然後目前"},{"start":251.063,"end":279.739,"text":"因為就是法律的適用在法官之間有分歧就如委員對這件事情了解得非常清楚就是有法官他主張說是個別的犯罪那有些是主張說是全部的要全部繳交之後才能夠減刑那因為現在就是因為有產生的歧義所以說那個大法庭剛剛辯論終結完那定在五月的時候會做一個宣判做一個統一大法庭要宣判了啦但是我要跟司法院我還是要呼籲啦"},{"start":280.419,"end":303.804,"text":"事實上我們在思考這件事情的時候我們都太重視被告也就是車手這個人我們卻忽略了被害者當被害者他被詐騙50萬、100萬這件事情車手所參與的犯罪當然就是50萬、100萬啊怎麼可能車手他所參與的是他後來拿到的報酬50萬、100萬、100萬都可以這個跟我們老百姓"},{"start":310.943,"end":329.215,"text":"認為的詐騙的一個要件這個當然涉及不法所得的計算但是我覺得我們司法院還是要到底站在什麼本位在思考這件事被告人權很重要但是被害者他的損失我認為這是更重要的"},{"start":330.095,"end":349.356,"text":"所以不法所得的這一個認定上,到底他這人就被詐騙,那不要說詐騙集團,這些詐騙集團可能外靠黨騙了我,那你不可以讓那個車手去負擔整個詐騙集團,可是至少在每一個詐騙的個案中,他的不法所得,就一定是被騙的總額嘛"},{"start":353.969,"end":367.779,"text":"我也沒辦法干涉每一個個案的法官只是說我要透過這個機會 我覺得要講給社會聽因為只有社會形成壓力 法官也許才聽得見不然我們每個人 我們又沒辦法跟法官對話"},{"start":369.67,"end":387.552,"text":"那法官也有他的一個認識用法可是我看檢察官不這麼認為檢察官每一次都針對車手被輕判然後被不法所得我看起來檢察官都有上訴但是就要去讀法官這個法官可能比較站在被告這個法官怎樣讀法官就這樣這樣不好"},{"start":389.878,"end":405.107,"text":"我們現在打詐是台灣一個很重要的一個課題那這個課題不能把打詐都讓基層的警員 基層的檢察官 時尚法官也是扮演很重要的一環 好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1294,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時58分）謝謝主席。有請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長，也請司法院刑事廳廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，午安。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長以及副秘書長、廳長好。事實上，我上一次來司法委員會就是在講，關於現在詐騙集團車手犯罪無法被重判這件事情。我已經在上一次質詢知道法務部的立場，法務部還是希望車手是共犯，不然至少也是幫助犯，基於現在規定的打詐專法，他是需要被重判的，但是看起來實務上判不重。判不重就產生了一個狀況，因為基於詐欺危害防制條例有說，自白而且繳交犯罪所得就可以減刑。因為自白且繳交犯罪所得可以減刑，結果變成詐騙集團的車手有一個一貫性的說法，就是被抓到之後，我可能會說我是初犯，初犯當然就已經有減刑了。也有可能會說，我不法所得，這個案子我詐騙了50萬，我就賺1萬而已，我跑這一趟去拿，只有賺1萬塊，那我的不法所得到底是50萬還是1萬？這件事情看起來，現在司法院有朝向要把它認定1萬是不法所得。甚至有些車手還大剌剌地說，我還沒拿到，所以我沒有不法所得，所以他也不用繳交不法所得，然後他後來得到輕判。我們看到現在好多車手可能被判6個月或只被判幾個月，草草就了事了。","我知道司法院5月14號還要針對這個不法所得的認定開會討論。我現在感受到的是，法院似乎要朝向不法所得是以他實際的收入這一件事情來看。我想要問一下司法院的態度，在這個事情上，大家對於打詐這麼重視，而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手，因為只有車手才會實際出現。所以整個檢調、警察辦案要怎麼樣把這個車手抓起來，然後由車手自白後順藤摸瓜，才能破獲詐騙集團，或者是才能去找一些相對應的金流？結果看起來，車手無法被重判這件事已經變成打詐最後的一個難關。司法院現在的態度是怎樣呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢、關心這件事情。首先第一個跟委員報告，因為司法院主責的是司法行政，有關於個案中法律怎麼適用，這個是屬於法官的權責，司法院沒有辦法……這不是我們的權責。"],["蔡委員易餘：副秘，我知道，我當然知道個案由個案的法官……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我第二點要說明的是……"],["蔡委員易餘：但是這一件已經有法官去聲請大法庭的統一解釋。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個統一解釋完，以後就會拘束很多法官的裁量權嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我現在也會擔心，這個解釋下去會怎麼發展，說真的我不知道。我們司法院的立場到底認為詐騙集團車手應該要重判，還是就是像這樣有輕判的機會？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告一下，有關於法律的適用，就是在法院端，最高法院是因為審級制度構造的關係，所以它最後的權威性事實上是在大法庭所做的解釋。目前就是因為法律的適用在法官之間有分歧，就如委員對這件事情了解得非常清楚，有法官主張是個別的犯罪，有些主張是全部的，要全部繳交之後才能夠減刑。現在就是因為產生歧異，所以大法庭剛剛辯論終結完，訂在5月的時候會宣判、做一個統一的……"],["蔡委員易餘：大法庭要宣判了啦！但是我還是要跟司法院呼籲，事實上我們在思考這件事情的時候，我們都太重視被告，也就是車手這個人，我們卻忽略了被害者。當被害者被詐騙50萬、100萬，這件事情車手參與的犯罪當然就是50萬、就是100萬啊！怎麼可能車手所參與的是他後來拿到的報酬？50萬，他拿1萬、拿10萬都可以，這個跟我們老百姓認為的詐騙要件，這個當然涉及不法所得的計算，但是我們司法院到底是站在什麼本位思考這件事？被告的人權很重要，但是被害者的損失我認為是更重要的。","在不法所得的認定上，這個人都被詐騙了，我們不要說詐騙集團，這些詐騙集團可能在外面騙了一億多，你不能讓那個車手去負擔整個詐騙集團。可是至少在每一個詐騙的個案中，它的不法所得就一定是被害人被騙的總額嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我也沒辦法干涉每一個個案的法官，只是我要透過這個機會告訴整個社會，因為這種社會形成壓力，法官也許才聽得見，不然我們又沒辦法跟法官對話！法官也有他的認事用法，我看檢察官不這麼認為，檢察官每一次都針對車手被輕判，然後被不法所得……看起來檢察官都有上訴，但是就要去賭法官，這個法官可能比較站在被告、這個法官怎麼樣，變成要賭法官，我覺得這樣不好！","現在打詐是臺灣一個很重要的課題，不能把打詐這個課題都讓基層的警員、基層的檢察官承擔，事實上法官也是扮演很重要的一環，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：所有委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員傅崐萁所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}}