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\"end\": 133.047, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 133.047, \"end\": 133.367, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"羈\"}, {\"word\": \"押\", \"start\": 133.367, \"end\": 133.527, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 133.527, \"end\": 133.647, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 133.647, \"end\": 133.827, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 133.827, \"end\": 133.847, \"score\": 0.196}]}, {\"start\": 134.167, \"end\": 155.67, \"text\": \"好謝謝你們的建議喔好那我們來看下一張下一張一樣是同樣的條文那目前我們辦公室的提案版本我只放了兒少性剝削條例第38條第一項可是如同法務部剛剛提醒38條第三項意圖營利犯罪第四項未遂犯的規定未遂犯雖然未達所謂的計稅程度但行為人已經著手\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 134.167, \"end\": 134.888, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 134.888, \"end\": 135.148, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 135.148, \"end\": 135.348, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 135.348, \"end\": 135.629, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 467.85, \"end\": 468.55, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 468.55, \"end\": 468.81, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 468.81, \"end\": 469.05, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"嫌\", \"start\": 469.05, \"end\": 469.57, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 469.57, \"end\": 469.79, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 469.79, \"end\": 470.011, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"女\", \"start\": 470.011, \"end\": 470.171, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 470.171, \"end\": 470.391, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 470.391, \"end\": 470.591, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 470.591, \"end\": 470.831, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 470.831, \"end\": 471.091, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"侵\", \"start\": 471.091, \"end\": 471.311, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 471.311, \"end\": 471.631, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 471.631, \"end\": 471.771, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"騷\"}, {\"word\": \"擾\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 471.771, \"end\": 471.791, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 471.791, \"end\": 471.811, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}]}, {\"start\": 473.132, \"end\": 491.407, \"text\": \"被害者受理人數高達將近29人這只是至少可能還有一些孩子不敢出面說那我們會發現這個受害者的困境在國賠法這邊其實我覺得有很多時候是錯過國賠的實現所以我們也很想問看看在這個部分我們有沒有機會進行進一步的討論\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 473.132, \"end\": 473.352, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 473.352, \"end\": 473.693, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 473.693, \"end\": 473.953, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 473.953, \"end\": 474.153, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 474.153, \"end\": 474.293, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 474.293, \"end\": 474.854, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 474.854, \"end\": 475.574, \"score\": 0.933}, 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482.28, \"end\": 482.58, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 482.58, \"end\": 482.74, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 482.74, \"end\": 483.361, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"賠\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 483.361, \"end\": 484.241, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 484.241, \"end\": 484.522, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 484.522, \"end\": 484.782, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 484.782, \"end\": 484.862, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 484.862, \"end\": 485.062, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 485.062, \"end\": 485.422, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 485.422, \"end\": 485.783, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 485.783, \"end\": 485.963, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 485.963, \"end\": 487.004, \"score\": 0.915}, 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516.284, \"end\": 516.604, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 516.604, \"end\": 516.884, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"詳\"}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 516.884, \"end\": 517.364, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 517.364, \"end\": 517.765, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 517.765, \"end\": 517.885, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 517.885, \"end\": 517.985, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 517.985, \"end\": 518.085, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 518.085, \"end\": 518.225, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 518.225, \"end\": 518.385, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 518.385, \"end\": 518.525, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 518.525, \"end\": 518.725, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 518.725, \"end\": 518.885, \"score\": 0.876}, 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\"主\", \"start\": 702.641, \"end\": 702.761, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 702.761, \"end\": 702.781, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 702.781, \"end\": 702.921, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 702.921, \"end\": 702.941, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,537 --> 00:00:30,879\n好謝謝主席那有請法務部還有司法院謝謝麻煩法務部司法院委員早安好早安那我想我們就直接切入我們辦公室提案的修法那事實上在相關的兒少案件兒少性影像案件當中其實社會上普遍越來越擔心那確實在全世界跟台灣的數字都是逐年上升的所以呢當時在報導者裡面\n\n2\n00:00:33,282 --> 00:00:48,321\n這個檢察官他們就有一個建議說法越修越重但不一定好用例如說如果我們把持有者的罰則定在三年那法官在審視的法律要件可能就會越來越嚴格不一定判得下去所以當時我們看到報導中的建議是說\n\n3\n00:00:49,663 --> 00:01:02,239\n應該回歸到修法讓檢警在辦案的時候阻力比較小比較可以起到嚇阻作用因此我們辦公室呢也就提出修法那當然這個修法我們也跟很多第一線的實務工作者討論所以今天也要聽聽你們的意見\n\n4\n00:01:05,663 --> 00:01:28,319\n在今天的提案當中呢我們非常謝謝法務部跟司法院給予我們的修法意見那基本上你們給的修法意見大致上跟我們聽到第一線實務工作者的意見是相近的那所以這一次我們的提案修法就是放在兒少性剝削條例當中我們希望把嫌疑重大有事實足認為有反覆實行同一犯罪之餘\n\n5\n00:01:29,179 --> 00:01:53,796\n而有羈押之必要者的行為人讓他們可以有被羈押的法源所以在我們原本的提案文字當中我沒有把兒少性剝削條例第36條第4項意圖營利犯罪第5項未遂犯規定放到提案裡面可是我看到法務部給我們相關建議所以我想應該是有機會納入討論空間這邊可不可以請法務部幫我們說明一下\n\n6\n00:01:55,441 --> 00:02:13,847\n各位委員報告我們提案中已經說明不只那個意圖犯跟未遂犯甚至有關於刑法上面也有相關的同樣是有關於性影像犯罪的部分我們認為這些犯罪在性質上它都有可能有反覆實施同一犯罪之一所以這部分我們也建議一併的來考量是否一併的列入我們的這個預防性羈押的事由\n\n7\n00:02:14,167 --> 00:02:35,670\n好謝謝你們的建議喔好那我們來看下一張下一張一樣是同樣的條文那目前我們辦公室的提案版本我只放了兒少性剝削條例第38條第一項可是如同法務部剛剛提醒38條第三項意圖營利犯罪第四項未遂犯的規定未遂犯雖然未達所謂的計稅程度但行為人已經著手\n\n8\n00:02:35,970 --> 00:02:57,635\n那如果不是因為偶發的因素沒有辦法完成犯罪其實我們仍然認為他具有高度危險性跟再犯的可能所以尤其是意圖引力的部分我們甚至認為他可能會涉及所謂的組織犯罪系統性犯罪尤其是現在的網路平台一旦跟這個相關結合我們認為對社會對兒少的危害性就會更高\n\n9\n00:02:58,235 --> 00:03:08,987\n那這邊我剛提到的部分我希望後續如果真的有機會我們進行逐條審查我們自己會提出修正動議但我也想要聽一下司法院或者是你們認為在這個階段你們可以針對我們這個建議跟討論做出什麼樣的具體準備\n\n10\n00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:16,022\n第一個司法院立場是贊同修法除了剛才所說的36條第4項第5項這個應該要徵修之外\n\n11\n00:03:28,835 --> 00:03:43,428\n那38條他同樣的第二項那個意圖散布而持有還有第三項這個意圖引起犯罪第四項的這個未遂犯我們也是建議應該也都有同樣的那個相同的那個立法的理由是\n\n12\n00:03:45,670 --> 00:04:07,740\n還有在報告裡面我們看到法務部有提醒我們刑法319之一到之四妨礙性隱私還有不實性隱向的部分其實衛福部也有跟我們討論到這個部分我認為未來如果有機會應該可以一起討論也許在修法的時候我們後續可以做一起努力這個時候我想要先謝謝你們所有提供的正面建議後續我們再一起努力\n\n13\n00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:22,453\n那接下來我要談到為什麼這次修法我們會做這些事情事實上這幾年新型態的兒少性剝削影像犯罪條例的樣態不只是數量上升它樣態也變得越來越多元我們先來看統計的相關通報件數在美國2023年兒童性剝削影像通報件數2018年的兩倍\n\n14\n00:04:28,678 --> 00:04:48,221\n在英國的研究中全世界大概有12.6%的兒童是文字或影像的網路兒障性剝削受害者在前兩天台灣也有相關數字也是說在很多網路的事件當中確實跟影像性剝削有關我們來看一下衛福部的數字衛福部給我們的數字到昨天為止\n\n15\n00:04:49,742 --> 00:05:16,138\n到去年已經突破三千件而且我要說這還是有報案有通報的我們相信有更多是不敢告訴家長不敢告訴老師而沒有通報的所以在這個報導當中我也想要問面對兒少性剝削案件的管轄權跟羈押條件認定的問題那在修法完成之前因為我們都知道修法比較慢在修法完成之前司法院這邊有沒有什麼機制可以強化內部的溝通\n\n16\n00:05:20,278 --> 00:05:38,356\n謝謝委員提那個垂尋這個問題因為確實網路犯罪他的特性跟實體像打架或發生一個什麼就是這種是不一樣的那如果說是採傳統的這一種對於管轄認定一定要僵化在那個犯罪行為地或者是那個行為人駐居所的話這個確實會很僵化\n\n17\n00:05:40,618 --> 00:06:02,439\n那如果說採一個最廣的就只要就是說你上電腦去連結這就是犯罪行為地的話就取得管轄權的話這個有很多就是疑問的部分這會變成好像全世界每個地方都會是那個就好像又過於寬鬆對是是那所以就是說怎麼樣去那個調整就是說\n\n18\n00:06:03,039 --> 00:06:30,269\n在傳統的這個認定之外呢對於就是設置網頁或者是那個電子郵件的主機或者是說傳輸資料這些主機的地方甚至於就是說有進一步的實際交易的這一些是不是都把它認定成那個就是是有管轄的因素我覺得這都可以考慮的那我們那個司法院呢我們一定會積極的就是說研議就是說看是開諮詢會議或者是透過委託案\n\n19\n00:06:30,749 --> 00:06:53,565\n但是必須時效上我們要盡快然後之後再跟法官們宣打以上好謝謝司法院非常正向的回應確實如同您剛剛說的樣態真的非常非常多元而且可能我們還在請專家學者做研究的所有這些科技犯案的形態又與時俱進所以那可能不是我們可以防範但我想我們有這個正向的態度是很重要的\n\n20\n00:06:54,025 --> 00:07:11,991\n也會對於第一線檢調人員會讓他們更有信心那延續我們剛剛對兒少事件的討論這幾年我們在協助非常多兒少校園事件不管是性侵、霸凌或者是所謂體育相關教練的不當對待其實很多時候是來自於結構性的惡意或者是不作為\n\n21\n00:07:12,711 --> 00:07:29,281\n但我們就會討論到可能有國賠的可能性可是事實上我們來看一下國家賠償法第八條說賠償請求權自請求權人之有損害時間期因為兩年之間沒有行使就會消滅自損害發生時期欲五年者一同\n\n22\n00:07:29,821 --> 00:07:51,811\n也就是說其實大部分的被害人或者是家長他們身邊的監護人通常在處理案件的當下已經焦頭爛額了他們可能甚至不知道有這個國賠的可能更不要講這個時效我們來看一下南投劉玉成校長這個案子他在任教的34年期間他涉嫌對多名女學生有性侵害性騷擾的行為\n\n23\n00:07:53,132 --> 00:08:11,407\n被害者受理人數高達將近29人這只是至少可能還有一些孩子不敢出面說那我們會發現這個受害者的困境在國賠法這邊其實我覺得有很多時候是錯過國賠的實現所以我們也很想問看看在這個部分我們有沒有機會進行進一步的討論\n\n24\n00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:38,905\n謝謝那個除了委員所說這個國家賠償之外就是那個犯罪被害人他還有可能可以取得這個犯罪被害那個補償金那司法院對於就是犯罪被害人的權益其實都相當重視所以我們有一個表單就是那個就是在一開庭的時候通知的時候都會附隨去很詳細的告訴被害人這個是司法院這邊的法\n\n25\n00:08:40,086 --> 00:08:41,046\n這個有機會在多久以內完成\n\n26\n00:09:00,213 --> 00:09:24,151\n應該這個禮拜這個馬上我們回去馬上可以做了好然後當然是要布達下去了好這個非常非常的重要所以那我想就這個部分我們再來看一下所以我們還要談的是剛國配的部分如果可以這樣解決我們事先提醒所謂的被害人跟他們的家庭讓他們有相關專業的協助那所以這邊我想你剛剛的回應很快那我們就期待你們後續趕快給我們相關的進度好\n\n27\n00:09:24,972 --> 00:09:51,355\n那再來那範保法輻射證的部分相關機制我們也希望後續可以開啟一併的討論那最後還剩下一點點時間我想要講一下關於首長會議的部分我知道其實你們都會開所謂司法首長會議那根據上一次我有質詢關於竹北虐童案相關的人棄保潛逃這個事情有沒有機會在司法首長會議當中我們先不打相關的可能性或是行政措施上可以怎麼樣改善\n\n28\n00:09:54,796 --> 00:10:14,836\n那個根果原報告確實就是說在法院審理當中就是發生這個虐童的被告棄保潛逃這個司法院這個是絕無旁貸就是我們一定要那個深自檢討那有關於這個那個部分呢就是說還是要解釋一下說在那個偵查中\n\n29\n00:10:16,863 --> 00:10:31,384\n檢察官申請羈押跟就是說偵查結束之後呢檢察官他做了一個決定就是起訴之後然後這個人法院移到法院來法院職權的去做一個決定就是有關於這個羈押處分這兩個是不太一樣\n\n30\n00:10:32,725 --> 00:10:58,155\n那過去因為法律也沒有規定說要有那個通知檢察官的這一個規定沒有相關的法源規範所以我其實是那我們現在就是說我們會立刻做那個檢討就是讓他更周延更完善那個制度就是一個是那個通知那一個就是說其他還有就是之後的那一些那個送達這些我們都會那個完備然後在各種那個場合\n\n31\n00:10:59,455 --> 00:11:18,122\n首長會議這個是一個那一個是我們日前我們已經把相關的這些立稿那通函就是發布到各法院去就是這些相關的改善措施啊所以已經發下去了嗎對因為其實我知道你們很積極有要來跟我們說明跟討論這件事情可以怎麼樣亡羊補牢把它補送回來\n\n32\n00:11:18,702 --> 00:11:42,941\n補救回來所以我們也看到你們非常積極的態度所以我想這邊就是再次跟您確認我們希望後續不管是需要法規範的法源依據或者是透過行政命令我們就可以去確保這件事情我認為看到這個亡羊補牢的事情我們都非常的感謝你們至少我們在這件事情上非常積極的去做這個事情那也希望後續如果有相關的進度報告再給我們辦公室一個相關的回覆好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7537\t30879\t好 謝謝主席 那有請法務部還有司法院 謝謝麻煩法務部司法院委員早安好 早安那我想我們就直接切入我們辦公室提案的修法那事實上在相關的兒少案件 兒少性影像案件當中其實社會上普遍越來越擔心那確實在全世界跟台灣的數字都是逐年上升的所以呢 當時在報導者裡面\n33282\t48321\t這個檢察官他們就有一個建議說法越修越重但不一定好用例如說如果我們把持有者的罰則定在三年那法官在審視的法律要件可能就會越來越嚴格不一定判得下去所以當時我們看到報導中的建議是說\n49663\t62239\t應該回歸到修法讓檢警在辦案的時候阻力比較小比較可以起到嚇阻作用因此我們辦公室呢也就提出修法那當然這個修法我們也跟很多第一線的實務工作者討論所以今天也要聽聽你們的意見\n65663\t88319\t在今天的提案當中呢我們非常謝謝法務部跟司法院給予我們的修法意見那基本上你們給的修法意見大致上跟我們聽到第一線實務工作者的意見是相近的那所以這一次我們的提案修法就是放在兒少性剝削條例當中我們希望把嫌疑重大有事實足認為有反覆實行同一犯罪之餘\n89179\t113796\t而有羈押之必要者的行為人讓他們可以有被羈押的法源所以在我們原本的提案文字當中我沒有把兒少性剝削條例第36條第4項意圖營利犯罪第5項未遂犯規定放到提案裡面可是我看到法務部給我們相關建議所以我想應該是有機會納入討論空間這邊可不可以請法務部幫我們說明一下\n115441\t133847\t各位委員報告我們提案中已經說明不只那個意圖犯跟未遂犯甚至有關於刑法上面也有相關的同樣是有關於性影像犯罪的部分我們認為這些犯罪在性質上它都有可能有反覆實施同一犯罪之一所以這部分我們也建議一併的來考量是否一併的列入我們的這個預防性羈押的事由\n134167\t155670\t好謝謝你們的建議喔好那我們來看下一張下一張一樣是同樣的條文那目前我們辦公室的提案版本我只放了兒少性剝削條例第38條第一項可是如同法務部剛剛提醒38條第三項意圖營利犯罪第四項未遂犯的規定未遂犯雖然未達所謂的計稅程度但行為人已經著手\n155970\t177635\t那如果不是因為偶發的因素沒有辦法完成犯罪其實我們仍然認為他具有高度危險性跟再犯的可能所以尤其是意圖引力的部分我們甚至認為他可能會涉及所謂的組織犯罪系統性犯罪尤其是現在的網路平台一旦跟這個相關結合我們認為對社會對兒少的危害性就會更高\n178235\t188987\t那這邊我剛提到的部分我希望後續如果真的有機會我們進行逐條審查我們自己會提出修正動議但我也想要聽一下司法院或者是你們認為在這個階段你們可以針對我們這個建議跟討論做出什麼樣的具體準備\n192759\t196022\t第一個司法院立場是贊同修法除了剛才所說的36條第4項第5項這個應該要徵修之外\n208835\t223428\t那38條他同樣的第二項那個意圖散布而持有還有第三項這個意圖引起犯罪第四項的這個未遂犯我們也是建議應該也都有同樣的那個相同的那個立法的理由是\n225670\t247740\t還有在報告裡面我們看到法務部有提醒我們刑法319之一到之四妨礙性隱私還有不實性隱向的部分其實衛福部也有跟我們討論到這個部分我認為未來如果有機會應該可以一起討論也許在修法的時候我們後續可以做一起努力這個時候我想要先謝謝你們所有提供的正面建議後續我們再一起努力\n248300\t262453\t那接下來我要談到為什麼這次修法我們會做這些事情事實上這幾年新型態的兒少性剝削影像犯罪條例的樣態不只是數量上升它樣態也變得越來越多元我們先來看統計的相關通報件數在美國2023年兒童性剝削影像通報件數2018年的兩倍\n268678\t288221\t在英國的研究中全世界大概有12.6%的兒童是文字或影像的網路兒障性剝削受害者在前兩天台灣也有相關數字也是說在很多網路的事件當中確實跟影像性剝削有關我們來看一下衛福部的數字衛福部給我們的數字到昨天為止\n289742\t316138\t到去年已經突破三千件而且我要說這還是有報案有通報的我們相信有更多是不敢告訴家長不敢告訴老師而沒有通報的所以在這個報導當中我也想要問面對兒少性剝削案件的管轄權跟羈押條件認定的問題那在修法完成之前因為我們都知道修法比較慢在修法完成之前司法院這邊有沒有什麼機制可以強化內部的溝通\n320278\t338356\t謝謝委員提那個垂尋這個問題因為確實網路犯罪他的特性跟實體像打架或發生一個什麼就是這種是不一樣的那如果說是採傳統的這一種對於管轄認定一定要僵化在那個犯罪行為地或者是那個行為人駐居所的話這個確實會很僵化\n340618\t362439\t那如果說採一個最廣的就只要就是說你上電腦去連結這就是犯罪行為地的話就取得管轄權的話這個有很多就是疑問的部分這會變成好像全世界每個地方都會是那個就好像又過於寬鬆對是是那所以就是說怎麼樣去那個調整就是說\n363039\t390269\t在傳統的這個認定之外呢對於就是設置網頁或者是那個電子郵件的主機或者是說傳輸資料這些主機的地方甚至於就是說有進一步的實際交易的這一些是不是都把它認定成那個就是是有管轄的因素我覺得這都可以考慮的那我們那個司法院呢我們一定會積極的就是說研議就是說看是開諮詢會議或者是透過委託案\n390749\t413565\t但是必須時效上我們要盡快然後之後再跟法官們宣打以上好 謝謝司法院非常正向的回應確實如同您剛剛說的樣態真的非常非常多元而且可能我們還在請專家學者做研究的所有這些科技犯案的形態又與時俱進所以那可能不是我們可以防範但我想我們有這個正向的態度是很重要的\n414025\t431991\t也會對於第一線檢調人員會讓他們更有信心那延續我們剛剛對兒少事件的討論這幾年我們在協助非常多兒少校園事件不管是性侵、霸凌或者是所謂體育相關教練的不當對待其實很多時候是來自於結構性的惡意或者是不作為\n432711\t449281\t但我們就會討論到可能有國賠的可能性可是事實上我們來看一下國家賠償法第八條說賠償請求權自請求權人之有損害時間期因為兩年之間沒有行使就會消滅自損害發生時期欲五年者一同\n449821\t471811\t也就是說其實大部分的被害人或者是家長他們身邊的監護人通常在處理案件的當下已經焦頭爛額了他們可能甚至不知道有這個國賠的可能更不要講這個時效我們來看一下南投劉玉成校長這個案子他在任教的34年期間他涉嫌對多名女學生有性侵害性騷擾的行為\n473132\t491407\t被害者受理人數高達將近29人這只是至少可能還有一些孩子不敢出面說那我們會發現這個受害者的困境在國賠法這邊其實我覺得有很多時候是錯過國賠的實現所以我們也很想問看看在這個部分我們有沒有機會進行進一步的討論\n495510\t518905\t謝謝那個除了委員所說這個國家賠償之外就是那個犯罪被害人他還有可能可以取得這個犯罪被害那個補償金那司法院對於就是犯罪被害人的權益其實都相當重視所以我們有一個表單就是那個就是在一開庭的時候通知的時候都會附隨去很詳細的告訴被害人這個是司法院這邊的法\n520086\t521046\t這個有機會在多久以內完成\n540213\t564151\t應該這個禮拜這個馬上 我們回去馬上可以做了好 然後當然是要布達下去了好 這個非常非常的重要所以 那我想就這個部分我們再來看一下所以我們還要談的是剛國配的部分如果可以這樣解決我們事先提醒所謂的被害人跟他們的家庭讓他們有相關專業的協助那所以這邊我想你剛剛的回應很快那我們就期待你們後續趕快給我們相關的進度好\n564972\t591355\t那再來那範保法輻射證的部分相關機制我們也希望後續可以開啟一併的討論那最後還剩下一點點時間我想要講一下關於首長會議的部分我知道其實你們都會開所謂司法首長會議那根據上一次我有質詢關於竹北虐童案相關的人棄保潛逃這個事情有沒有機會在司法首長會議當中我們先不打相關的可能性或是行政措施上可以怎麼樣改善\n594796\t614836\t那個根果原報告確實就是說在法院審理當中就是發生這個虐童的被告棄保潛逃這個司法院這個是絕無旁貸就是我們一定要那個深自檢討那有關於這個那個部分呢就是說還是要解釋一下說在那個偵查中\n616863\t631384\t檢察官申請羈押跟就是說偵查結束之後呢檢察官他做了一個決定就是起訴之後然後這個人法院移到法院來法院職權的去做一個決定就是有關於這個羈押處分這兩個是不太一樣\n632725\t658155\t那過去因為法律也沒有規定說要有那個通知檢察官的這一個規定沒有相關的法源規範所以我其實是那我們現在就是說我們會立刻做那個檢討就是讓他更周延更完善那個制度就是一個是那個通知那一個就是說其他還有就是之後的那一些那個送達這些我們都會那個完備然後在各種那個場合\n659455\t678122\t首長會議這個是一個那一個是我們日前我們已經把相關的這些立稿那通函就是發布到各法院去就是這些相關的改善措施啊所以已經發下去了嗎對 因為其實我知道你們很積極有要來跟我們說明跟討論這件事情可以怎麼樣亡羊補牢把它補送回來\n678702\t702941\t補救回來所以我們也看到你們非常積極的態度所以我想這邊就是再次跟您確認我們希望後續不管是需要法規範的法源依據或者是透過行政命令我們就可以去確保這件事情我認為看到這個亡羊補牢的事情我們都非常的感謝你們至少我們在這件事情上非常積極的去做這個事情那也希望後續如果有相關的進度報告再給我們辦公室一個相關的回覆好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那有請法務部還有司法院 謝謝麻煩法務部司法院委員早安好 早安那我想我們就直接切入我們辦公室提案的修法那事實上在相關的兒少案件 兒少性影像案件當中其實社會上普遍越來越擔心那確實在全世界跟台灣的數字都是逐年上升的所以呢 當時在報導者裡面\n這個檢察官他們就有一個建議說法越修越重但不一定好用例如說如果我們把持有者的罰則定在三年那法官在審視的法律要件可能就會越來越嚴格不一定判得下去所以當時我們看到報導中的建議是說\n應該回歸到修法讓檢警在辦案的時候阻力比較小比較可以起到嚇阻作用因此我們辦公室呢也就提出修法那當然這個修法我們也跟很多第一線的實務工作者討論所以今天也要聽聽你們的意見\n在今天的提案當中呢我們非常謝謝法務部跟司法院給予我們的修法意見那基本上你們給的修法意見大致上跟我們聽到第一線實務工作者的意見是相近的那所以這一次我們的提案修法就是放在兒少性剝削條例當中我們希望把嫌疑重大有事實足認為有反覆實行同一犯罪之餘\n而有羈押之必要者的行為人讓他們可以有被羈押的法源所以在我們原本的提案文字當中我沒有把兒少性剝削條例第36條第4項意圖營利犯罪第5項未遂犯規定放到提案裡面可是我看到法務部給我們相關建議所以我想應該是有機會納入討論空間這邊可不可以請法務部幫我們說明一下\n各位委員報告我們提案中已經說明不只那個意圖犯跟未遂犯甚至有關於刑法上面也有相關的同樣是有關於性影像犯罪的部分我們認為這些犯罪在性質上它都有可能有反覆實施同一犯罪之一所以這部分我們也建議一併的來考量是否一併的列入我們的這個預防性羈押的事由\n好謝謝你們的建議喔好那我們來看下一張下一張一樣是同樣的條文那目前我們辦公室的提案版本我只放了兒少性剝削條例第38條第一項可是如同法務部剛剛提醒38條第三項意圖營利犯罪第四項未遂犯的規定未遂犯雖然未達所謂的計稅程度但行為人已經著手\n那如果不是因為偶發的因素沒有辦法完成犯罪其實我們仍然認為他具有高度危險性跟再犯的可能所以尤其是意圖引力的部分我們甚至認為他可能會涉及所謂的組織犯罪系統性犯罪尤其是現在的網路平台一旦跟這個相關結合我們認為對社會對兒少的危害性就會更高\n那這邊我剛提到的部分我希望後續如果真的有機會我們進行逐條審查我們自己會提出修正動議但我也想要聽一下司法院或者是你們認為在這個階段你們可以針對我們這個建議跟討論做出什麼樣的具體準備\n第一個司法院立場是贊同修法除了剛才所說的36條第4項第5項這個應該要徵修之外\n那38條他同樣的第二項那個意圖散布而持有還有第三項這個意圖引起犯罪第四項的這個未遂犯我們也是建議應該也都有同樣的那個相同的那個立法的理由是\n還有在報告裡面我們看到法務部有提醒我們刑法319之一到之四妨礙性隱私還有不實性隱向的部分其實衛福部也有跟我們討論到這個部分我認為未來如果有機會應該可以一起討論也許在修法的時候我們後續可以做一起努力這個時候我想要先謝謝你們所有提供的正面建議後續我們再一起努力\n那接下來我要談到為什麼這次修法我們會做這些事情事實上這幾年新型態的兒少性剝削影像犯罪條例的樣態不只是數量上升它樣態也變得越來越多元我們先來看統計的相關通報件數在美國2023年兒童性剝削影像通報件數2018年的兩倍\n在英國的研究中全世界大概有12.6%的兒童是文字或影像的網路兒障性剝削受害者在前兩天台灣也有相關數字也是說在很多網路的事件當中確實跟影像性剝削有關我們來看一下衛福部的數字衛福部給我們的數字到昨天為止\n到去年已經突破三千件而且我要說這還是有報案有通報的我們相信有更多是不敢告訴家長不敢告訴老師而沒有通報的所以在這個報導當中我也想要問面對兒少性剝削案件的管轄權跟羈押條件認定的問題那在修法完成之前因為我們都知道修法比較慢在修法完成之前司法院這邊有沒有什麼機制可以強化內部的溝通\n謝謝委員提那個垂尋這個問題因為確實網路犯罪他的特性跟實體像打架或發生一個什麼就是這種是不一樣的那如果說是採傳統的這一種對於管轄認定一定要僵化在那個犯罪行為地或者是那個行為人駐居所的話這個確實會很僵化\n那如果說採一個最廣的就只要就是說你上電腦去連結這就是犯罪行為地的話就取得管轄權的話這個有很多就是疑問的部分這會變成好像全世界每個地方都會是那個就好像又過於寬鬆對是是那所以就是說怎麼樣去那個調整就是說\n在傳統的這個認定之外呢對於就是設置網頁或者是那個電子郵件的主機或者是說傳輸資料這些主機的地方甚至於就是說有進一步的實際交易的這一些是不是都把它認定成那個就是是有管轄的因素我覺得這都可以考慮的那我們那個司法院呢我們一定會積極的就是說研議就是說看是開諮詢會議或者是透過委託案\n但是必須時效上我們要盡快然後之後再跟法官們宣打以上好 謝謝司法院非常正向的回應確實如同您剛剛說的樣態真的非常非常多元而且可能我們還在請專家學者做研究的所有這些科技犯案的形態又與時俱進所以那可能不是我們可以防範但我想我們有這個正向的態度是很重要的\n也會對於第一線檢調人員會讓他們更有信心那延續我們剛剛對兒少事件的討論這幾年我們在協助非常多兒少校園事件不管是性侵、霸凌或者是所謂體育相關教練的不當對待其實很多時候是來自於結構性的惡意或者是不作為\n但我們就會討論到可能有國賠的可能性可是事實上我們來看一下國家賠償法第八條說賠償請求權自請求權人之有損害時間期因為兩年之間沒有行使就會消滅自損害發生時期欲五年者一同\n也就是說其實大部分的被害人或者是家長他們身邊的監護人通常在處理案件的當下已經焦頭爛額了他們可能甚至不知道有這個國賠的可能更不要講這個時效我們來看一下南投劉玉成校長這個案子他在任教的34年期間他涉嫌對多名女學生有性侵害性騷擾的行為\n被害者受理人數高達將近29人這只是至少可能還有一些孩子不敢出面說那我們會發現這個受害者的困境在國賠法這邊其實我覺得有很多時候是錯過國賠的實現所以我們也很想問看看在這個部分我們有沒有機會進行進一步的討論\n謝謝那個除了委員所說這個國家賠償之外就是那個犯罪被害人他還有可能可以取得這個犯罪被害那個補償金那司法院對於就是犯罪被害人的權益其實都相當重視所以我們有一個表單就是那個就是在一開庭的時候通知的時候都會附隨去很詳細的告訴被害人這個是司法院這邊的法\n這個有機會在多久以內完成\n應該這個禮拜這個馬上 我們回去馬上可以做了好 然後當然是要布達下去了好 這個非常非常的重要所以 那我想就這個部分我們再來看一下所以我們還要談的是剛國配的部分如果可以這樣解決我們事先提醒所謂的被害人跟他們的家庭讓他們有相關專業的協助那所以這邊我想你剛剛的回應很快那我們就期待你們後續趕快給我們相關的進度好\n那再來那範保法輻射證的部分相關機制我們也希望後續可以開啟一併的討論那最後還剩下一點點時間我想要講一下關於首長會議的部分我知道其實你們都會開所謂司法首長會議那根據上一次我有質詢關於竹北虐童案相關的人棄保潛逃這個事情有沒有機會在司法首長會議當中我們先不打相關的可能性或是行政措施上可以怎麼樣改善\n那個根果原報告確實就是說在法院審理當中就是發生這個虐童的被告棄保潛逃這個司法院這個是絕無旁貸就是我們一定要那個深自檢討那有關於這個那個部分呢就是說還是要解釋一下說在那個偵查中\n檢察官申請羈押跟就是說偵查結束之後呢檢察官他做了一個決定就是起訴之後然後這個人法院移到法院來法院職權的去做一個決定就是有關於這個羈押處分這兩個是不太一樣\n那過去因為法律也沒有規定說要有那個通知檢察官的這一個規定沒有相關的法源規範所以我其實是那我們現在就是說我們會立刻做那個檢討就是讓他更周延更完善那個制度就是一個是那個通知那一個就是說其他還有就是之後的那一些那個送達這些我們都會那個完備然後在各種那個場合\n首長會議這個是一個那一個是我們日前我們已經把相關的這些立稿那通函就是發布到各法院去就是這些相關的改善措施啊所以已經發下去了嗎對 因為其實我知道你們很積極有要來跟我們說明跟討論這件事情可以怎麼樣亡羊補牢把它補送回來\n補救回來所以我們也看到你們非常積極的態度所以我想這邊就是再次跟您確認我們希望後續不管是需要法規範的法源依據或者是透過行政命令我們就可以去確保這件事情我認為看到這個亡羊補牢的事情我們都非常的感謝你們至少我們在這件事情上非常積極的去做這個事情那也希望後續如果有相關的進度報告再給我們辦公室一個相關的回覆好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.537 --> 00:30.879\n好謝謝主席那有請法務部還有司法院謝謝麻煩法務部司法院委員早安好早安那我想我們就直接切入我們辦公室提案的修法那事實上在相關的兒少案件兒少性影像案件當中其實社會上普遍越來越擔心那確實在全世界跟台灣的數字都是逐年上升的所以呢當時在報導者裡面\n\n00:33.282 --> 00:48.321\n這個檢察官他們就有一個建議說法越修越重但不一定好用例如說如果我們把持有者的罰則定在三年那法官在審視的法律要件可能就會越來越嚴格不一定判得下去所以當時我們看到報導中的建議是說\n\n00:49.663 --> 01:02.239\n應該回歸到修法讓檢警在辦案的時候阻力比較小比較可以起到嚇阻作用因此我們辦公室呢也就提出修法那當然這個修法我們也跟很多第一線的實務工作者討論所以今天也要聽聽你們的意見\n\n01:05.663 --> 01:28.319\n在今天的提案當中呢我們非常謝謝法務部跟司法院給予我們的修法意見那基本上你們給的修法意見大致上跟我們聽到第一線實務工作者的意見是相近的那所以這一次我們的提案修法就是放在兒少性剝削條例當中我們希望把嫌疑重大有事實足認為有反覆實行同一犯罪之餘\n\n01:29.179 --> 01:53.796\n而有羈押之必要者的行為人讓他們可以有被羈押的法源所以在我們原本的提案文字當中我沒有把兒少性剝削條例第36條第4項意圖營利犯罪第5項未遂犯規定放到提案裡面可是我看到法務部給我們相關建議所以我想應該是有機會納入討論空間這邊可不可以請法務部幫我們說明一下\n\n01:55.441 --> 02:13.847\n各位委員報告我們提案中已經說明不只那個意圖犯跟未遂犯甚至有關於刑法上面也有相關的同樣是有關於性影像犯罪的部分我們認為這些犯罪在性質上它都有可能有反覆實施同一犯罪之一所以這部分我們也建議一併的來考量是否一併的列入我們的這個預防性羈押的事由\n\n02:14.167 --> 02:35.670\n好謝謝你們的建議喔好那我們來看下一張下一張一樣是同樣的條文那目前我們辦公室的提案版本我只放了兒少性剝削條例第38條第一項可是如同法務部剛剛提醒38條第三項意圖營利犯罪第四項未遂犯的規定未遂犯雖然未達所謂的計稅程度但行為人已經著手\n\n02:35.970 --> 02:57.635\n那如果不是因為偶發的因素沒有辦法完成犯罪其實我們仍然認為他具有高度危險性跟再犯的可能所以尤其是意圖引力的部分我們甚至認為他可能會涉及所謂的組織犯罪系統性犯罪尤其是現在的網路平台一旦跟這個相關結合我們認為對社會對兒少的危害性就會更高\n\n02:58.235 --> 03:08.987\n那這邊我剛提到的部分我希望後續如果真的有機會我們進行逐條審查我們自己會提出修正動議但我也想要聽一下司法院或者是你們認為在這個階段你們可以針對我們這個建議跟討論做出什麼樣的具體準備\n\n03:12.759 --> 03:16.022\n第一個司法院立場是贊同修法除了剛才所說的36條第4項第5項這個應該要徵修之外\n\n03:28.835 --> 03:43.428\n那38條他同樣的第二項那個意圖散布而持有還有第三項這個意圖引起犯罪第四項的這個未遂犯我們也是建議應該也都有同樣的那個相同的那個立法的理由是\n\n03:45.670 --> 04:07.740\n還有在報告裡面我們看到法務部有提醒我們刑法319之一到之四妨礙性隱私還有不實性隱向的部分其實衛福部也有跟我們討論到這個部分我認為未來如果有機會應該可以一起討論也許在修法的時候我們後續可以做一起努力這個時候我想要先謝謝你們所有提供的正面建議後續我們再一起努力\n\n04:08.300 --> 04:22.453\n那接下來我要談到為什麼這次修法我們會做這些事情事實上這幾年新型態的兒少性剝削影像犯罪條例的樣態不只是數量上升它樣態也變得越來越多元我們先來看統計的相關通報件數在美國2023年兒童性剝削影像通報件數2018年的兩倍\n\n04:28.678 --> 04:48.221\n在英國的研究中全世界大概有12.6%的兒童是文字或影像的網路兒障性剝削受害者在前兩天台灣也有相關數字也是說在很多網路的事件當中確實跟影像性剝削有關我們來看一下衛福部的數字衛福部給我們的數字到昨天為止\n\n04:49.742 --> 05:16.138\n到去年已經突破三千件而且我要說這還是有報案有通報的我們相信有更多是不敢告訴家長不敢告訴老師而沒有通報的所以在這個報導當中我也想要問面對兒少性剝削案件的管轄權跟羈押條件認定的問題那在修法完成之前因為我們都知道修法比較慢在修法完成之前司法院這邊有沒有什麼機制可以強化內部的溝通\n\n05:20.278 --> 05:38.356\n謝謝委員提那個垂尋這個問題因為確實網路犯罪他的特性跟實體像打架或發生一個什麼就是這種是不一樣的那如果說是採傳統的這一種對於管轄認定一定要僵化在那個犯罪行為地或者是那個行為人駐居所的話這個確實會很僵化\n\n05:40.618 --> 06:02.439\n那如果說採一個最廣的就只要就是說你上電腦去連結這就是犯罪行為地的話就取得管轄權的話這個有很多就是疑問的部分這會變成好像全世界每個地方都會是那個就好像又過於寬鬆對是是那所以就是說怎麼樣去那個調整就是說\n\n06:03.039 --> 06:30.269\n在傳統的這個認定之外呢對於就是設置網頁或者是那個電子郵件的主機或者是說傳輸資料這些主機的地方甚至於就是說有進一步的實際交易的這一些是不是都把它認定成那個就是是有管轄的因素我覺得這都可以考慮的那我們那個司法院呢我們一定會積極的就是說研議就是說看是開諮詢會議或者是透過委託案\n\n06:30.749 --> 06:53.565\n但是必須時效上我們要盡快然後之後再跟法官們宣打以上好謝謝司法院非常正向的回應確實如同您剛剛說的樣態真的非常非常多元而且可能我們還在請專家學者做研究的所有這些科技犯案的形態又與時俱進所以那可能不是我們可以防範但我想我們有這個正向的態度是很重要的\n\n06:54.025 --> 07:11.991\n也會對於第一線檢調人員會讓他們更有信心那延續我們剛剛對兒少事件的討論這幾年我們在協助非常多兒少校園事件不管是性侵、霸凌或者是所謂體育相關教練的不當對待其實很多時候是來自於結構性的惡意或者是不作為\n\n07:12.711 --> 07:29.281\n但我們就會討論到可能有國賠的可能性可是事實上我們來看一下國家賠償法第八條說賠償請求權自請求權人之有損害時間期因為兩年之間沒有行使就會消滅自損害發生時期欲五年者一同\n\n07:29.821 --> 07:51.811\n也就是說其實大部分的被害人或者是家長他們身邊的監護人通常在處理案件的當下已經焦頭爛額了他們可能甚至不知道有這個國賠的可能更不要講這個時效我們來看一下南投劉玉成校長這個案子他在任教的34年期間他涉嫌對多名女學生有性侵害性騷擾的行為\n\n07:53.132 --> 08:11.407\n被害者受理人數高達將近29人這只是至少可能還有一些孩子不敢出面說那我們會發現這個受害者的困境在國賠法這邊其實我覺得有很多時候是錯過國賠的實現所以我們也很想問看看在這個部分我們有沒有機會進行進一步的討論\n\n08:15.510 --> 08:38.905\n謝謝那個除了委員所說這個國家賠償之外就是那個犯罪被害人他還有可能可以取得這個犯罪被害那個補償金那司法院對於就是犯罪被害人的權益其實都相當重視所以我們有一個表單就是那個就是在一開庭的時候通知的時候都會附隨去很詳細的告訴被害人這個是司法院這邊的法\n\n08:40.086 --> 08:41.046\n這個有機會在多久以內完成\n\n09:00.213 --> 09:24.151\n應該這個禮拜這個馬上我們回去馬上可以做了好然後當然是要布達下去了好這個非常非常的重要所以那我想就這個部分我們再來看一下所以我們還要談的是剛國配的部分如果可以這樣解決我們事先提醒所謂的被害人跟他們的家庭讓他們有相關專業的協助那所以這邊我想你剛剛的回應很快那我們就期待你們後續趕快給我們相關的進度好\n\n09:24.972 --> 09:51.355\n那再來那範保法輻射證的部分相關機制我們也希望後續可以開啟一併的討論那最後還剩下一點點時間我想要講一下關於首長會議的部分我知道其實你們都會開所謂司法首長會議那根據上一次我有質詢關於竹北虐童案相關的人棄保潛逃這個事情有沒有機會在司法首長會議當中我們先不打相關的可能性或是行政措施上可以怎麼樣改善\n\n09:54.796 --> 10:14.836\n那個根果原報告確實就是說在法院審理當中就是發生這個虐童的被告棄保潛逃這個司法院這個是絕無旁貸就是我們一定要那個深自檢討那有關於這個那個部分呢就是說還是要解釋一下說在那個偵查中\n\n10:16.863 --> 10:31.384\n檢察官申請羈押跟就是說偵查結束之後呢檢察官他做了一個決定就是起訴之後然後這個人法院移到法院來法院職權的去做一個決定就是有關於這個羈押處分這兩個是不太一樣\n\n10:32.725 --> 10:58.155\n那過去因為法律也沒有規定說要有那個通知檢察官的這一個規定沒有相關的法源規範所以我其實是那我們現在就是說我們會立刻做那個檢討就是讓他更周延更完善那個制度就是一個是那個通知那一個就是說其他還有就是之後的那一些那個送達這些我們都會那個完備然後在各種那個場合\n\n10:59.455 --> 11:18.122\n首長會議這個是一個那一個是我們日前我們已經把相關的這些立稿那通函就是發布到各法院去就是這些相關的改善措施啊所以已經發下去了嗎對因為其實我知道你們很積極有要來跟我們說明跟討論這件事情可以怎麼樣亡羊補牢把它補送回來\n\n11:18.702 --> 11:42.941\n補救回來所以我們也看到你們非常積極的態度所以我想這邊就是再次跟您確認我們希望後續不管是需要法規範的法源依據或者是透過行政命令我們就可以去確保這件事情我認為看到這個亡羊補牢的事情我們都非常的感謝你們至少我們在這件事情上非常積極的去做這個事情那也希望後續如果有相關的進度報告再給我們辦公室一個相關的回覆好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.537,"end":30.879,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請法務部還有司法院 謝謝麻煩法務部司法院委員早安好 早安那我想我們就直接切入我們辦公室提案的修法那事實上在相關的兒少案件 兒少性影像案件當中其實社會上普遍越來越擔心那確實在全世界跟台灣的數字都是逐年上升的所以呢 當時在報導者裡面"},{"start":33.282,"end":48.321,"text":"這個檢察官他們就有一個建議說法越修越重但不一定好用例如說如果我們把持有者的罰則定在三年那法官在審視的法律要件可能就會越來越嚴格不一定判得下去所以當時我們看到報導中的建議是說"},{"start":49.663,"end":62.239,"text":"應該回歸到修法讓檢警在辦案的時候阻力比較小比較可以起到嚇阻作用因此我們辦公室呢也就提出修法那當然這個修法我們也跟很多第一線的實務工作者討論所以今天也要聽聽你們的意見"},{"start":65.663,"end":88.319,"text":"在今天的提案當中呢我們非常謝謝法務部跟司法院給予我們的修法意見那基本上你們給的修法意見大致上跟我們聽到第一線實務工作者的意見是相近的那所以這一次我們的提案修法就是放在兒少性剝削條例當中我們希望把嫌疑重大有事實足認為有反覆實行同一犯罪之餘"},{"start":89.179,"end":113.796,"text":"而有羈押之必要者的行為人讓他們可以有被羈押的法源所以在我們原本的提案文字當中我沒有把兒少性剝削條例第36條第4項意圖營利犯罪第5項未遂犯規定放到提案裡面可是我看到法務部給我們相關建議所以我想應該是有機會納入討論空間這邊可不可以請法務部幫我們說明一下"},{"start":115.441,"end":133.847,"text":"各位委員報告我們提案中已經說明不只那個意圖犯跟未遂犯甚至有關於刑法上面也有相關的同樣是有關於性影像犯罪的部分我們認為這些犯罪在性質上它都有可能有反覆實施同一犯罪之一所以這部分我們也建議一併的來考量是否一併的列入我們的這個預防性羈押的事由"},{"start":134.167,"end":155.67,"text":"好謝謝你們的建議喔好那我們來看下一張下一張一樣是同樣的條文那目前我們辦公室的提案版本我只放了兒少性剝削條例第38條第一項可是如同法務部剛剛提醒38條第三項意圖營利犯罪第四項未遂犯的規定未遂犯雖然未達所謂的計稅程度但行為人已經著手"},{"start":155.97,"end":177.635,"text":"那如果不是因為偶發的因素沒有辦法完成犯罪其實我們仍然認為他具有高度危險性跟再犯的可能所以尤其是意圖引力的部分我們甚至認為他可能會涉及所謂的組織犯罪系統性犯罪尤其是現在的網路平台一旦跟這個相關結合我們認為對社會對兒少的危害性就會更高"},{"start":178.235,"end":188.987,"text":"那這邊我剛提到的部分我希望後續如果真的有機會我們進行逐條審查我們自己會提出修正動議但我也想要聽一下司法院或者是你們認為在這個階段你們可以針對我們這個建議跟討論做出什麼樣的具體準備"},{"start":192.759,"end":196.022,"text":"第一個司法院立場是贊同修法除了剛才所說的36條第4項第5項這個應該要徵修之外"},{"start":208.835,"end":223.428,"text":"那38條他同樣的第二項那個意圖散布而持有還有第三項這個意圖引起犯罪第四項的這個未遂犯我們也是建議應該也都有同樣的那個相同的那個立法的理由是"},{"start":225.67,"end":247.74,"text":"還有在報告裡面我們看到法務部有提醒我們刑法319之一到之四妨礙性隱私還有不實性隱向的部分其實衛福部也有跟我們討論到這個部分我認為未來如果有機會應該可以一起討論也許在修法的時候我們後續可以做一起努力這個時候我想要先謝謝你們所有提供的正面建議後續我們再一起努力"},{"start":248.3,"end":262.453,"text":"那接下來我要談到為什麼這次修法我們會做這些事情事實上這幾年新型態的兒少性剝削影像犯罪條例的樣態不只是數量上升它樣態也變得越來越多元我們先來看統計的相關通報件數在美國2023年兒童性剝削影像通報件數2018年的兩倍"},{"start":268.678,"end":288.221,"text":"在英國的研究中全世界大概有12.6%的兒童是文字或影像的網路兒障性剝削受害者在前兩天台灣也有相關數字也是說在很多網路的事件當中確實跟影像性剝削有關我們來看一下衛福部的數字衛福部給我們的數字到昨天為止"},{"start":289.742,"end":316.138,"text":"到去年已經突破三千件而且我要說這還是有報案有通報的我們相信有更多是不敢告訴家長不敢告訴老師而沒有通報的所以在這個報導當中我也想要問面對兒少性剝削案件的管轄權跟羈押條件認定的問題那在修法完成之前因為我們都知道修法比較慢在修法完成之前司法院這邊有沒有什麼機制可以強化內部的溝通"},{"start":320.278,"end":338.356,"text":"謝謝委員提那個垂尋這個問題因為確實網路犯罪他的特性跟實體像打架或發生一個什麼就是這種是不一樣的那如果說是採傳統的這一種對於管轄認定一定要僵化在那個犯罪行為地或者是那個行為人駐居所的話這個確實會很僵化"},{"start":340.618,"end":362.439,"text":"那如果說採一個最廣的就只要就是說你上電腦去連結這就是犯罪行為地的話就取得管轄權的話這個有很多就是疑問的部分這會變成好像全世界每個地方都會是那個就好像又過於寬鬆對是是那所以就是說怎麼樣去那個調整就是說"},{"start":363.039,"end":390.269,"text":"在傳統的這個認定之外呢對於就是設置網頁或者是那個電子郵件的主機或者是說傳輸資料這些主機的地方甚至於就是說有進一步的實際交易的這一些是不是都把它認定成那個就是是有管轄的因素我覺得這都可以考慮的那我們那個司法院呢我們一定會積極的就是說研議就是說看是開諮詢會議或者是透過委託案"},{"start":390.749,"end":413.565,"text":"但是必須時效上我們要盡快然後之後再跟法官們宣打以上好 謝謝司法院非常正向的回應確實如同您剛剛說的樣態真的非常非常多元而且可能我們還在請專家學者做研究的所有這些科技犯案的形態又與時俱進所以那可能不是我們可以防範但我想我們有這個正向的態度是很重要的"},{"start":414.025,"end":431.991,"text":"也會對於第一線檢調人員會讓他們更有信心那延續我們剛剛對兒少事件的討論這幾年我們在協助非常多兒少校園事件不管是性侵、霸凌或者是所謂體育相關教練的不當對待其實很多時候是來自於結構性的惡意或者是不作為"},{"start":432.711,"end":449.281,"text":"但我們就會討論到可能有國賠的可能性可是事實上我們來看一下國家賠償法第八條說賠償請求權自請求權人之有損害時間期因為兩年之間沒有行使就會消滅自損害發生時期欲五年者一同"},{"start":449.821,"end":471.811,"text":"也就是說其實大部分的被害人或者是家長他們身邊的監護人通常在處理案件的當下已經焦頭爛額了他們可能甚至不知道有這個國賠的可能更不要講這個時效我們來看一下南投劉玉成校長這個案子他在任教的34年期間他涉嫌對多名女學生有性侵害性騷擾的行為"},{"start":473.132,"end":491.407,"text":"被害者受理人數高達將近29人這只是至少可能還有一些孩子不敢出面說那我們會發現這個受害者的困境在國賠法這邊其實我覺得有很多時候是錯過國賠的實現所以我們也很想問看看在這個部分我們有沒有機會進行進一步的討論"},{"start":495.51,"end":518.905,"text":"謝謝那個除了委員所說這個國家賠償之外就是那個犯罪被害人他還有可能可以取得這個犯罪被害那個補償金那司法院對於就是犯罪被害人的權益其實都相當重視所以我們有一個表單就是那個就是在一開庭的時候通知的時候都會附隨去很詳細的告訴被害人這個是司法院這邊的法"},{"start":520.086,"end":521.046,"text":"這個有機會在多久以內完成"},{"start":540.213,"end":564.151,"text":"應該這個禮拜這個馬上 我們回去馬上可以做了好 然後當然是要布達下去了好 這個非常非常的重要所以 那我想就這個部分我們再來看一下所以我們還要談的是剛國配的部分如果可以這樣解決我們事先提醒所謂的被害人跟他們的家庭讓他們有相關專業的協助那所以這邊我想你剛剛的回應很快那我們就期待你們後續趕快給我們相關的進度好"},{"start":564.972,"end":591.355,"text":"那再來那範保法輻射證的部分相關機制我們也希望後續可以開啟一併的討論那最後還剩下一點點時間我想要講一下關於首長會議的部分我知道其實你們都會開所謂司法首長會議那根據上一次我有質詢關於竹北虐童案相關的人棄保潛逃這個事情有沒有機會在司法首長會議當中我們先不打相關的可能性或是行政措施上可以怎麼樣改善"},{"start":594.796,"end":614.836,"text":"那個根果原報告確實就是說在法院審理當中就是發生這個虐童的被告棄保潛逃這個司法院這個是絕無旁貸就是我們一定要那個深自檢討那有關於這個那個部分呢就是說還是要解釋一下說在那個偵查中"},{"start":616.863,"end":631.384,"text":"檢察官申請羈押跟就是說偵查結束之後呢檢察官他做了一個決定就是起訴之後然後這個人法院移到法院來法院職權的去做一個決定就是有關於這個羈押處分這兩個是不太一樣"},{"start":632.725,"end":658.155,"text":"那過去因為法律也沒有規定說要有那個通知檢察官的這一個規定沒有相關的法源規範所以我其實是那我們現在就是說我們會立刻做那個檢討就是讓他更周延更完善那個制度就是一個是那個通知那一個就是說其他還有就是之後的那一些那個送達這些我們都會那個完備然後在各種那個場合"},{"start":659.455,"end":678.122,"text":"首長會議這個是一個那一個是我們日前我們已經把相關的這些立稿那通函就是發布到各法院去就是這些相關的改善措施啊所以已經發下去了嗎對 因為其實我知道你們很積極有要來跟我們說明跟討論這件事情可以怎麼樣亡羊補牢把它補送回來"},{"start":678.702,"end":702.941,"text":"補救回來所以我們也看到你們非常積極的態度所以我想這邊就是再次跟您確認我們希望後續不管是需要法規範的法源依據或者是透過行政命令我們就可以去確保這件事情我認為看到這個亡羊補牢的事情我們都非常的感謝你們至少我們在這件事情上非常積極的去做這個事情那也希望後續如果有相關的進度報告再給我們辦公室一個相關的回覆好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":266,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時27分）謝謝主席，有請法務部及司法院。謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩法務部、司法院。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["陳委員培瑜：早安。我想我們就直接切入我們辦公室提案的修法，事實上，在相關的兒少性影像案件當中，其實社會上普遍是越來越擔心，確實在全世界跟臺灣的數字都是逐年上升的，當時在報導裡面有看到檢察官表示法愈修愈重但不一定好用，例如說，如果我們把持有者的罰則訂在三年，法官審視的法律要件可能會越來越嚴格，不一定判得下去，當時我們看到報導中的建議是應該要回歸到如何修法，讓檢警在辦案的時候阻力比較小，比較可以起到嚇阻作用，因此我們辦公室也就提出修法。當然，這個修法我們也跟很多第一線的實務工作者做過討論，所以今天也要聽聽你們的意見。","在今天的提案當中，我們非常謝謝法務部跟司法院給予我們的修法意見。基本上，你們給的修法意見大致上跟我們聽到第一線實務工作者的意見是相近的，所以這一次我們的提案修法就是放在兒少性剝削條例當中，我們希望把「嫌疑重大，有事實足認為有反覆實行同一犯罪之虞，而有羈押之必要者」的行為人，讓他們可以有被羈押的法源。所以在我們原本的提案文字當中，我沒有把兒少性剝削條例第三十六條第四項意圖營利犯罪、第五項未遂犯規定放到提案裡面，可是我看到法務部給我們相關建議，所以我想應該是有機會納入討論的空間，這邊可不可以請法務部幫我們說明一下？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們在報告中已經說明了，不只意圖犯跟未遂犯，甚至有關於刑法上面也有相關的、同樣是有關於性影像犯罪的部分，我們認為這些犯罪在性質上都有可能有反覆實施同一犯罪之虞，所以這部分我們也建議考量是否一併列入這個預防性羈押的事由。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝你們的建議。","我們來看下一張，同樣的條文，目前我們辦公室的提案版本只放了兒少性剝削條例第三十八條第一項，可是如同法務部剛剛提醒的，第三十八條第三項意圖營利犯罪、第四項未遂犯的規定，未遂犯雖然未達所謂的既遂程度，但行為人已經著手，有可能是因為偶發因素沒有辦法完成犯罪，所以我們仍然認為他具有高度危險性跟再犯的可能，尤其是意圖營利的部分，我們甚至認為他可能會涉及所謂的組織犯罪、系統性犯罪，尤其是現在的網路平臺，一旦跟這個相關結合，我們認為對社會、對兒少的危害性就會更高。","我剛剛提到的部分，後續如果真的有機會進行逐條審查，我們自己會提出修正動議，但我也想要聽一下司法院的意見，或者你們認為在這個階段，你們可以針對我們這個建議跟討論做出什麼樣的具體準備？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。第一個，司法院的立場是贊同修法，就是如剛才的報告。除了剛才所說的第三十六條第四項、第五項應該要增修之外，同樣的，第三十八條第二項意圖散布而持有、第三項意圖營利犯罪及第四項未遂犯，我們也是建議納入，因為應該也都有相同的立法理由。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。還有，在報告裡面看到法務部有提醒我們，刑法第三百十九條之一到之四的妨害性隱私及不實性影像罪的部分，其實衛福部也有跟我們討論到這個部分，我認為未來如果有機會應該可以一起討論，也許在修法的時候，我們後續可以一起努力，這個時候我想要先謝謝你們提供的所有正面建議，後續我們再一起努力。","接下來我要談到為什麼這次修法我們會做這些事情？事實上，這幾年新型態的兒少性剝削影像犯罪不只是數量上升，樣態也變得越來越多元。我們先來看統計的相關通報件數，美國2023年兒童性剝削影像通報件數是2018年的兩倍，在英國的研究中，全世界大概有12.6%的兒童是文字或影像的網路兒少性剝削受害者，前兩天臺灣也有相關數字，也是說在很多網路的事件當中確實跟性影像、性剝削有關。","我們來看一下衛福部的數字，衛福部給我們的數字，到去年已經突破3,000件，而且我要說的是，這還是有報案、有通報的，我們相信有更多是不敢告訴家長、不敢告訴老師而沒有通報的。所以，在這個報導當中，我也想要問，面對兒少性剝削案件的管轄權跟羈押條件認定的問題，在修法完成之前，因為我們都知道修法比較慢，在修法完成之前，司法院這邊有沒有什麼機制可以強化內部的溝通？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢這個問題，因為確實網路犯罪的特性跟實體像打架或發生什麼是不一樣的，如果採傳統這種對於管轄的認定，一定要僵化在那個犯罪行為地或者是那個行為人住居所的話，這個確實會很僵化。如果說採一個最廣的，只要你上電腦去連結，這就是犯罪行為地、就取得管轄權的話，這個也有很多疑問的部分，這會變成好像全世界每個地方都會取得管轄權……"],["陳委員培瑜：好像又過於寬鬆。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，所以怎麼樣去調整，就是在傳統的認定之外，對於設置網頁或者是電子郵件的主機，或者是傳輸資料的主機等等這些地方，甚至於有進一步實際交易的這些，是不是都認定成有管轄的因素，我覺得這都可以考慮。我們司法院一定會積極去做研議，看是召開諮詢會議或者是透過委託案，但是在時效上我們必須要儘快，之後再跟法官們宣達。以上。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝司法院非常正向的回應，確實如同您剛剛說的，樣態真的非常非常多元，而且可能我們還在請專家學者做研究的時候，所有這些科技犯案的型態又與時俱進，所以那可能不是我們可以防範的，但我想我們有這個正向態度是很重要的，也會讓第一線的檢調人員更有信心。","延續我們剛剛對兒少事件的討論，這幾年我們協助非常多兒少校園事件，不管是性侵、霸凌或者是所謂體育相關教練的不當對待，其實很多時候是來自於結構性的惡意或者是不作為，因此我們就會討論到國賠的可能性。可是事實上我們來看一下國家賠償法第八條，該條規定「賠償請求權，自請求權人知有損害時起，因二年間不行使而消滅；自損害發生時起，逾五年者亦同。」也就是說，其實大部分的被害人或者是家長、他們身邊的監護人，通常在處理案件的當下已經焦頭爛額了，他們可能甚至不知道有國賠的可能，更不要講這個時效。我們來看一下南投劉育成校長的這個案子，他在任教的34年期間涉嫌對多名女學生有性侵害、性騷擾的行為，被害者受理人數高達29人，這只是至少，可能還有些孩子不敢出面說。我們發現這些受害者的困境在國賠法這邊，其實我覺得有很多時候是錯過國賠的時限，所以我們也很想問看看，這個部分我們有沒有機會進行進一步的討論？謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：除了委員所說的國家賠償之外，犯罪被害人還有可能可以取得犯罪被害補償金，司法院對於犯罪被害人的權益其實都相當重視，所以我們有一個表單，在開庭通知的時候都會附隨上去，很詳細地告訴被害人……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是司法院這邊的嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，就是他有哪些權益會詳細的列下來，也有告訴他們可以提起附帶民事，就這個補償金的部分確實現在沒有列在這裡，我們也會採納委員的意見，立刻把它補列上。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個有機會在多久以內完成？"],["王副秘書長梅英：應該這個禮拜，這個我們回去後馬上就可以做了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，然後要布達下去啦。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個非常非常的重要。就國賠的部分如果可以這樣解決，我們事先提醒所謂的被害人跟他們的家庭，讓他們有相關專業的協助，你剛剛的回應很快，我們就期待你們後續趕快給我們相關的進度。","再來，犯保、法扶、社政等相關機制，我們也希望後續可以開啟一併的討論。","最後還剩下一點點時間，我想要講一下關於首長會議的部分，我知道其實你們都會開所謂司法首長會議，上一次我有質詢關於竹北虐童案相關事件的被告棄保潛逃這個事情，請問有沒有機會在司法首長會議當中先布達相關的可能性，或是行政措施上可以怎麼樣改善？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，確實在法院審理當中發生虐童案的被告棄保潛逃，這個司法院責無旁貸，我們一定要深自檢討。關於這個部分還是要解釋一下，在偵查中檢察官聲請羈押，跟偵查結束之後檢察官做了起訴的決定，然後這個人就移到法院來，法院依職權去做有關於羈押處分的決定，這兩個是不太一樣的，過去因為法律也沒有要通知檢察官的相關規定……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，我知道，沒錯，沒有相關的法源規範，所以我其實是……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們現在會立刻做檢討，就是讓它更周延、更完善那個制度，一個是通知，一個就是其他之後的那些送達，我們都會予以完備，然後在各種場合，首長會議是一個，另一個是日前我們已經把相關的這些例稿通函發布到各法院去，就是這些相關的改善措施……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以已經發下去了嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有，已經發下去了。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實我知道你們很積極的要來跟我們說明、討論這件事情可以怎麼樣亡羊補牢的把它補救回來，我們有看到你們非常積極的態度，所以我想這邊就是再次跟您確認，我們希望後續不管是需要法規範的法源依據，或者是透過行政命令就可以去確保這件事情，而且看到這個亡羊補牢的措施，我們都非常的感謝你們，至少在這件事情上你們是非常積極地去做這個事情，也希望後續如果有相關的進度報告，再給我們辦公室一個相關的回復，好嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","下一位請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員羅智強等25 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案、\n(二)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員陳\n培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十九條及第四百五十一條之一條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員許智\n傑等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144301_00001"}}}