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\"不過目前到現在為止還是對於某些牛肉產品跟高齡的牛脂那個潛在的風險並沒有排除所以本身認為我們國不應該在還沒有確立的一個科學證據佐證下就全面開放這是我個人的一些想法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 151.252, \"end\": 151.472, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 151.472, \"end\": 151.712, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 151.712, \"end\": 152.012, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 152.012, \"end\": 152.753, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 152.753, \"end\": 152.993, \"score\": 0.618}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 152.993, \"end\": 153.213, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 153.213, \"end\": 153.473, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 153.473, \"end\": 153.593, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"某\", \"start\": 153.593, \"end\": 153.853, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 153.853, \"end\": 154.153, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"牛\", \"start\": 154.153, \"end\": 154.253, 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{\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 710.708, \"end\": 710.928, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 710.928, \"end\": 711.048, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 711.048, \"end\": 711.068, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 711.068, \"end\": 711.088, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,347 --> 00:00:03,367\n委員長\n\n2\n00:00:14,264 --> 00:00:40,751\n好部長早副總代表早那美國今年4月他發布了國家貿易障礙評估的這個報告他明白的指出台灣應該要依據科學證據跟國際規範取消對牛絞肉以及副產品的這個限制意思就是說要台灣全面開放美牛產品進口那麼我想先請問部長部長當時我們限制某些牛肉產品不能進口的原因是什麼你還記得嗎\n\n3\n00:00:44,855 --> 00:01:04,128\n我們當然是根據科學的分析還有國際的標準在食安照顧國人食安的一個最大的原則之下來做相關的各種安慰那現在時到今天這些風險跟懷疑還存在嗎\n\n4\n00:01:08,922 --> 00:01:18,010\n我想我們從以前到現在都是在衛福部的立場當然就是一直做科學的分析跟專業的態度同時也要根據這些科學的實證\n\n5\n00:01:26,537 --> 00:01:53,145\n來參考國際的標準當時的認定標準現在是不是還存在當然我知道這不是一個容易回答的問題那這樣我先請教這個副總代表因為美國不斷的要求台灣要全面開放美牛那我們的立場要做改變嗎我們要進一步開放當時我們對牛絞肉跟它的副產品的限制以及有一些牛隻年齡的這個限制問題副總我想請你是不是就這個部分回答謝謝\n\n6\n00:01:54,790 --> 00:02:13,722\n好那個謝委員我想當初我們對於牛角肉這些限制是來自於美國當初有BAC狂牛症的問題那但是狂牛症的這個認定實際上按照世界衛生動物組織他們的認定也不斷的針對狂牛症的認定有分為典型跟非典型的不同的一個病症\n\n7\n00:02:14,242 --> 00:02:29,991\n那科學也不斷地在進步那我想對於我們台灣來說我們對於美國的產品是否要開放完全就是按照現在國際證據上面然後這些科學的評估會去認定說美國的產品到底安不安全來作為我們接下來討論的基礎\n\n8\n00:02:31,252 --> 00:02:48,979\n不過目前到現在為止還是對於某些牛肉產品跟高齡的牛脂那個潛在的風險並沒有排除所以本身認為我們國不應該在還沒有確立的一個科學證據佐證下就全面開放這是我個人的一些想法\n\n9\n00:02:50,539 --> 00:02:58,101\n同一份報告中美方有延續過去的立場認為台灣實施指明台灣實施豬肉原產地標示規定以及對進口豬實施萊克多巴胺的最高殘留量的限制這兩件事他們認定是對不公平的技術性貿易障礙影響美國出口的利益現在正逢準備要談判的期間我們都預期原產地的標示這會成為戰場之一\n\n10\n00:03:18,866 --> 00:03:28,657\n那請教部長跟經貿談判副總代表我國是否會在談判過程當中堅定維持豬肉應該要標示原產地呢\n\n11\n00:03:29,226 --> 00:03:49,593\n好,我們一定堅定、審慎、積極、智力法官、全國、國人的聲明,剛剛有講過,建構一個實在安心的環境所以我們要求豬肉跟牛肉原料原產地標示其實我們是一體適用於國產及所有輸入的豬肉跟\n\n12\n00:03:51,614 --> 00:04:05,248\n我謝謝部長這樣子回答但是我要告訴部長是因為這次我們談判對象是美國美國他自己有個原產地標示法叫COOL他在2015年被自己的國會廢除了部分原產地標示規定\n\n13\n00:04:06,229 --> 00:04:10,733\n那當時他們是為了因應WTO的加入那因為WTO對這項法案法規有一個裁釋就是說在爭端案當中WTO裁定美國的部分的原產地標示包含牛肉跟豬肉違反了TBD的這個協定二之一條還有第二之二條就裡面包括國民待遇和綜合國待遇還有不造成不必要這樣這個規定\n\n14\n00:04:29,970 --> 00:04:32,052\n他們認定確實構成不必要的貿易障礙所以我想請教部長因為據我了解剛剛您在回答在外面回答這個記者的時候受訪就是說你有回答一個方式的回答說沒有什麼事情是不會改變的\n\n15\n00:04:47,583 --> 00:04:50,924\n部長我請教你,你講的沒有什麼事情是不會改變的,是針對我國的這個標示,民文標示安法第22條這個標示原產地這個民文規定嗎?是不是要在美國的壓力下取消這個規定呢?你剛剛談話之意是不是如此呢?包委員我剛剛應該沒有提到那個沒有什麼任何事情是\n\n16\n00:05:11,153 --> 00:05:14,556\n我沒有提到這句話雖然我覺得人生無常但是我會講這句話國際的標準最重要一定要在安全國際的標準當然專家一直在\n\n17\n00:05:29,131 --> 00:05:35,536\n一直在調整調整但是一定都是在專家組有機會澄清一下但是美方多次在國際場合對我國的豬肉的標示有關切雖然我們台民總統絕對認同原產地標示有助於什麼很重要的\n\n18\n00:05:48,907 --> 00:05:57,591\n讓消費者能夠做出符合個人在做選擇時的一個他的價值跟他的風險認知的一個參考依據但我請教部長衛福部有沒有評估過如果台灣針對美豬的原產地標示也會遭遇類似的法律訴訟呢就是他被裁定等一下我還有其他國家的例子就是我們如果堅定那我們要去準備面對國際法律的訴訟問題\n\n19\n00:06:16,501 --> 00:06:33,568\n因為針對前在WTO的訴訟我們做了什麼樣的準備因為這是去談判不是在國內處理那談判這個其中我方的談判代表這個怎麼樣來互惠怎麼樣來幫我們爭取我們覺得應該要維持原來的制度我的重點在這裡也是我們今天討論的重點\n\n20\n00:06:35,844 --> 00:06:43,451\n謝謝委員提醒,這個部分我想江市長是專家,那你怎麼樣?時間有限謝謝委員這邊的提問面對美國的豬肉的標示,當然是他們有提到可是這件事情在國內,我們對所有豬肉,不管是\n\n21\n00:07:00,546 --> 00:07:27,478\n好吃的一筆一豬還是哪一國家的豬其實我們是一體適用一致的標示那也在回應所有全體民眾的一些關心所以做了我們的相關的規定到市場端其實是有做特定的一個標示謝謝署長既然滿上一體適用但我為什麼要這樣問部長因為按照我國的民情政府認定萊克多巴胺這件事的殘留量的標準我們目前是認為有提高的必要性\n\n22\n00:07:28,678 --> 00:07:35,740\n但綜合我們比較加州還有墨西哥他控告美國的前述案件結果確實被評定為是貿易壁壘有這樣的風險那在庫爾的案件當中WTO認為美國的做法對於進口肉品跟本國的肉品的待遇不一樣雖然表面上規定好像沒有不同但是進口廠商\n\n23\n00:07:51,883 --> 00:08:07,486\n他確實要承擔了不同的程序跟成本所以他等同他這個裁定說等同貿易歧視那另一方面美國的這個全難聽標示也在訴訟中被裁定為就是你這個標示沒有辦法證明你政策正當性的一個佐證\n\n24\n00:08:08,707 --> 00:08:23,714\n你這樣標示法沒有辦法證明在這個才事當中是如此所以換句話說台灣的辯護不能只靠民情封鎖民情而是要提出具體的科學證據那美方已經在2020年10月跟2020年2月的TPT會議當中還有前面我提到的國際貿易的障礙評估的報告當中多次提到這些標示對美國豬肉是會造成不利的影響\n\n25\n00:08:36,417 --> 00:08:52,391\n面對我們國家的標準確實比國際標準高啊比國際標準嚴啊所以請問衛福部如何闡述我國行政機關的標準是符合WTO或是這個TBT的協定平等原則我擔心的是這個部分因為確實比國際高\n\n26\n00:08:54,153 --> 00:09:10,475\n部長你可以做初步的回應嗎?非常謝謝委員這麼專業的指教也把可能比較擔心的我們也論述那我想我們我們國人有國人的一個飲食的文化所以我們在\n\n27\n00:09:11,676 --> 00:09:29,890\n要求這個標準上面可能雖然我們一定要科學的分析也要符合國際的標準所以我們當然這就是兩難啊所以部長我請問的不是所以這個就是我們要一起來努力我們衛福部絕對在一直針對相關的議題相關的食品\n\n28\n00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:56,089\n一定去做好科學的分析跟修正科學的修正然後了解到國際的一個整個標準的一個變化最重要我們要尊重我們國人膳食的一個習慣這樣來訂定相關的措施這個辯護還是要有一個相當的力道因為就是說用我們國人的民情風俗大概很難過關可是美國一旦的拋出國際壓力\n\n29\n00:09:57,689 --> 00:10:12,427\n我想我們要堅持我方人民有知情權因為美國相對是人權思考的國家知情權行政機關要準備以科學證據跟法學的論述來佐證為什麼台灣會定出高於這個Codex\n\n30\n00:10:12,947 --> 00:10:19,775\n我們為什麼會訂出高於Codex標準台灣如何在談判中說服美國說我國高於國際認定標準不是一種貿易障礙但是你如果只靠這個風俗民情沒有辦法是一個穩靠的這個立基點那也沒辦法作為這個國家的政策來對應可能引起的國際\n\n31\n00:10:30,568 --> 00:10:53,024\n貿易的爭端所以我想說請就是說諸位參考我民眾黨的主張是第一個原產地標示不是貿易的壁壘它是提供消費者在做個人的進行個人的選擇時一種價值或是風險認知的一個參考依據就我們可以從這個觀點來想因為我們必須守護國民的知情權知道事情的這個權\n\n32\n00:10:54,625 --> 00:11:13,973\n這個權利第二個原產地標示是大家也要去準備目前是最低標準其實我們的國人對於那個萊克多巴胺的部分他其實是更重視那當然他要我們全面開放所以這個部分你們要怎麼去克服怎麼樣去準備怎麼樣去說服我覺得很相當的艱難\n\n33\n00:11:16,696 --> 00:11:32,121\n我們政府一定做好最好的準備,但是一定要在科學的根據還有符合一定,符合標準,符合國際的標準,最重要在這樣的情況之下,一定要提供給民眾知的權益,剛剛委員所提的\n\n34\n00:11:38,543 --> 00:11:51,088\n最安全的食品每一個人會去認知提供個參考我想副總代表也請你參考除了科學怎麼去解讀科學證據這是一個談判的手法跟技巧主席已經站起來了謝謝三位我們繼續努力謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3347\t3367\t委員長\n14264\t40751\t好 部長早 副總代表早那美國今年4月他發布了國家貿易障礙評估的這個報告他明白的指出台灣應該要依據科學證據跟國際規範取消對牛絞肉以及副產品的這個限制意思就是說要台灣全面開放美牛產品進口那麼我想先請問部長部長當時我們限制某些牛肉產品不能進口的原因是什麼你還記得嗎\n44855\t64128\t我們當然是根據科學的分析還有國際的標準在食安照顧國人食安的一個最大的原則之下來做相關的各種安慰那現在時到今天這些風險跟懷疑還存在嗎\n68922\t78010\t我想我們從以前到現在都是在衛福部的立場當然就是一直做科學的分析跟專業的態度同時也要根據這些科學的實證\n86537\t113145\t來參考國際的標準當時的認定標準現在是不是還存在當然我知道這不是一個容易回答的問題那這樣我先請教這個副總代表因為美國不斷的要求台灣要全面開放美牛那我們的立場要做改變嗎我們要進一步開放當時我們對牛絞肉跟它的副產品的限制以及有一些牛隻年齡的這個限制問題副總我想請你是不是就這個部分回答 謝謝\n114790\t133722\t好那個謝委員我想當初我們對於牛角肉這些限制是來自於美國當初有BAC狂牛症的問題那但是狂牛症的這個認定實際上按照世界衛生動物組織他們的認定也不斷的針對狂牛症的認定有分為典型跟非典型的不同的一個病症\n134242\t149991\t那科學也不斷地在進步那我想對於我們台灣來說我們對於美國的產品是否要開放完全就是按照現在國際證據上面然後這些科學的評估會去認定說美國的產品到底安不安全來作為我們接下來討論的基礎\n151252\t168979\t不過目前到現在為止還是對於某些牛肉產品跟高齡的牛脂那個潛在的風險並沒有排除所以本身認為我們國不應該在還沒有確立的一個科學證據佐證下就全面開放這是我個人的一些想法\n170539\t178101\t同一份報告中美方有延續過去的立場認為台灣實施指明台灣實施豬肉原產地標示規定以及對進口豬實施萊克多巴胺的最高殘留量的限制這兩件事他們認定是對不公平的技術性貿易障礙影響美國出口的利益現在正逢準備要談判的期間我們都預期原產地的標示這會成為戰場之一\n198866\t208657\t那請教部長跟經貿談判副總代表我國是否會在談判過程當中堅定維持豬肉應該要標示原產地呢\n209226\t229593\t好,我們一定堅定、審慎、積極、智力法官、全國、國人的聲明,剛剛有講過,建構一個實在安心的環境所以我們要求豬肉跟牛肉原料原產地標示其實我們是一體適用於國產及所有輸入的豬肉跟\n231614\t245248\t我謝謝部長這樣子回答但是我要告訴部長是因為這次我們談判對象是美國美國他自己有個原產地標示法叫COOL他在2015年被自己的國會廢除了部分原產地標示規定\n246229\t250733\t那當時他們是為了因應WTO的加入那因為WTO對這項法案法規有一個裁釋就是說在爭端案當中WTO裁定美國的部分的原產地標示包含牛肉跟豬肉違反了TBD的這個協定二之一條還有第二之二條就裡面包括國民待遇和綜合國待遇還有不造成不必要這樣這個規定\n269970\t272052\t他們認定確實構成不必要的貿易障礙所以我想請教部長因為據我了解剛剛您在回答在外面回答這個記者的時候受訪就是說你有回答一個方式的回答說沒有什麼事情是不會改變的\n287583\t290924\t部長我請教你,你講的沒有什麼事情是不會改變的,是針對我國的這個標示,民文標示安法第22條這個標示原產地這個民文規定嗎?是不是要在美國的壓力下取消這個規定呢?你剛剛談話之意是不是如此呢?包委員我剛剛應該沒有提到那個沒有什麼任何事情是\n311153\t314556\t我沒有提到這句話雖然我覺得人生無常但是我會講這句話國際的標準最重要一定要在安全國際的標準當然專家一直在\n329131\t335536\t一直在調整調整 但是一定都是在專家組有機會澄清一下 但是美方多次在國際場合對我國的豬肉的標示有關切雖然我們台民總統絕對認同原產地標示有助於什麼 很重要的\n348907\t357591\t讓消費者能夠做出符合個人在做選擇時的一個他的價值跟他的風險認知的一個參考依據但我請教部長衛福部有沒有評估過如果台灣針對美豬的原產地標示也會遭遇類似的法律訴訟呢就是他被裁定等一下我還有其他國家的例子就是我們如果堅定那我們要去準備面對國際法律的訴訟問題\n376501\t393568\t因為針對前在WTO的訴訟我們做了什麼樣的準備因為這是去談判不是在國內處理那談判這個其中我方的談判代表這個怎麼樣來互惠怎麼樣來幫我們爭取我們覺得應該要維持原來的制度我的重點在這裡也是我們今天討論的重點\n395844\t403451\t謝謝委員提醒,這個部分我想江市長是專家,那你怎麼樣?時間有限謝謝委員這邊的提問面對美國的豬肉的標示,當然是他們有提到可是這件事情在國內,我們對所有豬肉,不管是\n420546\t447478\t好吃的一筆一豬還是哪一國家的豬其實我們是一體適用一致的標示那也在回應所有全體民眾的一些關心所以做了我們的相關的規定到市場端其實是有做特定的一個標示謝謝署長 既然滿上一體適用但我為什麼要這樣問部長因為按照我國的民情政府認定萊克多巴胺這件事的殘留量的標準我們目前是認為有提高的必要性\n448678\t455740\t但綜合我們比較加州還有墨西哥他控告美國的前述案件結果確實被評定為是貿易壁壘有這樣的風險那在庫爾的案件當中WTO認為美國的做法對於進口肉品跟本國的肉品的待遇不一樣雖然表面上規定好像沒有不同但是進口廠商\n471883\t487486\t他確實要承擔了不同的程序跟成本所以他等同他這個裁定說等同貿易歧視那另一方面美國的這個全難聽標示也在訴訟中被裁定為就是你這個標示沒有辦法證明你政策正當性的一個佐證\n488707\t503714\t你這樣標示法沒有辦法證明在這個才事當中是如此所以換句話說台灣的辯護不能只靠民情封鎖民情而是要提出具體的科學證據那美方已經在2020年10月跟2020年2月的TPT會議當中還有前面我提到的國際貿易的障礙評估的報告當中多次提到這些標示對美國豬肉是會造成不利的影響\n516417\t532391\t面對我們國家的標準確實比國際標準高啊比國際標準嚴啊所以請問衛福部如何闡述我國行政機關的標準是符合WTO或是這個TBT的協定平等原則我擔心的是這個部分因為確實比國際高\n534153\t550475\t部長你可以做初步的回應嗎?非常謝謝委員這麼專業的指教也把可能比較擔心的我們也論述那我想我們我們國人有國人的一個飲食的文化所以我們在\n551676\t569890\t要求這個標準上面可能雖然我們一定要科學的分析也要符合國際的標準所以我們當然這就是兩難啊所以部長我請問的不是所以這個就是我們要一起來努力我們衛福部絕對在一直針對相關的議題相關的食品\n571900\t596089\t一定去做好科學的分析跟修正科學的修正然後了解到國際的一個整個標準的一個變化最重要我們要尊重我們國人膳食的一個習慣這樣來訂定相關的措施這個辯護還是要有一個相當的力道因為就是說用我們國人的民情風俗大概很難過關可是美國一旦的拋出國際壓力\n597689\t612427\t我想我們要堅持我方人民有知情權因為美國相對是人權思考的國家知情權行政機關要準備以科學證據跟法學的論述來佐證為什麼台灣會定出高於這個Codex\n612947\t619775\t我們為什麼會訂出高於Codex標準台灣如何在談判中說服美國說我國高於國際認定標準不是一種貿易障礙但是你如果只靠這個風俗民情沒有辦法是一個穩靠的這個立基點那也沒辦法作為這個國家的政策來對應可能引起的國際\n630568\t653024\t貿易的爭端所以我想說請就是說諸位參考我民眾黨的主張是第一個原產地標示不是貿易的壁壘它是提供消費者在做個人的進行個人的選擇時一種價值或是風險認知的一個參考依據就我們可以從這個觀點來想因為我們必須守護國民的知情權知道事情的這個權\n654625\t673973\t這個權利第二個原產地標示是大家也要去準備目前是最低標準其實我們的國人對於那個萊克多巴胺的部分他其實是更重視那當然他要我們全面開放所以這個部分你們要怎麼去克服怎麼樣去準備怎麼樣去說服我覺得很相當的艱難\n676696\t692121\t我們政府一定做好最好的準備,但是一定要在科學的根據還有符合一定,符合標準,符合國際的標準,最重要在這樣的情況之下,一定要提供給民眾知的權益,剛剛委員所提的\n698543\t711088\t最安全的食品每一個人會去認知 提供個參考我想副總代表也請你參考除了科學怎麼去解讀科學證據這是一個談判的手法跟技巧主席已經站起來了 謝謝三位我們繼續努力 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"委員長\n好 部長早 副總代表早那美國今年4月他發布了國家貿易障礙評估的這個報告他明白的指出台灣應該要依據科學證據跟國際規範取消對牛絞肉以及副產品的這個限制意思就是說要台灣全面開放美牛產品進口那麼我想先請問部長部長當時我們限制某些牛肉產品不能進口的原因是什麼你還記得嗎\n我們當然是根據科學的分析還有國際的標準在食安照顧國人食安的一個最大的原則之下來做相關的各種安慰那現在時到今天這些風險跟懷疑還存在嗎\n我想我們從以前到現在都是在衛福部的立場當然就是一直做科學的分析跟專業的態度同時也要根據這些科學的實證\n來參考國際的標準當時的認定標準現在是不是還存在當然我知道這不是一個容易回答的問題那這樣我先請教這個副總代表因為美國不斷的要求台灣要全面開放美牛那我們的立場要做改變嗎我們要進一步開放當時我們對牛絞肉跟它的副產品的限制以及有一些牛隻年齡的這個限制問題副總我想請你是不是就這個部分回答 謝謝\n好那個謝委員我想當初我們對於牛角肉這些限制是來自於美國當初有BAC狂牛症的問題那但是狂牛症的這個認定實際上按照世界衛生動物組織他們的認定也不斷的針對狂牛症的認定有分為典型跟非典型的不同的一個病症\n那科學也不斷地在進步那我想對於我們台灣來說我們對於美國的產品是否要開放完全就是按照現在國際證據上面然後這些科學的評估會去認定說美國的產品到底安不安全來作為我們接下來討論的基礎\n不過目前到現在為止還是對於某些牛肉產品跟高齡的牛脂那個潛在的風險並沒有排除所以本身認為我們國不應該在還沒有確立的一個科學證據佐證下就全面開放這是我個人的一些想法\n同一份報告中美方有延續過去的立場認為台灣實施指明台灣實施豬肉原產地標示規定以及對進口豬實施萊克多巴胺的最高殘留量的限制這兩件事他們認定是對不公平的技術性貿易障礙影響美國出口的利益現在正逢準備要談判的期間我們都預期原產地的標示這會成為戰場之一\n那請教部長跟經貿談判副總代表我國是否會在談判過程當中堅定維持豬肉應該要標示原產地呢\n好,我們一定堅定、審慎、積極、智力法官、全國、國人的聲明,剛剛有講過,建構一個實在安心的環境所以我們要求豬肉跟牛肉原料原產地標示其實我們是一體適用於國產及所有輸入的豬肉跟\n我謝謝部長這樣子回答但是我要告訴部長是因為這次我們談判對象是美國美國他自己有個原產地標示法叫COOL他在2015年被自己的國會廢除了部分原產地標示規定\n那當時他們是為了因應WTO的加入那因為WTO對這項法案法規有一個裁釋就是說在爭端案當中WTO裁定美國的部分的原產地標示包含牛肉跟豬肉違反了TBD的這個協定二之一條還有第二之二條就裡面包括國民待遇和綜合國待遇還有不造成不必要這樣這個規定\n他們認定確實構成不必要的貿易障礙所以我想請教部長因為據我了解剛剛您在回答在外面回答這個記者的時候受訪就是說你有回答一個方式的回答說沒有什麼事情是不會改變的\n部長我請教你,你講的沒有什麼事情是不會改變的,是針對我國的這個標示,民文標示安法第22條這個標示原產地這個民文規定嗎?是不是要在美國的壓力下取消這個規定呢?你剛剛談話之意是不是如此呢?包委員我剛剛應該沒有提到那個沒有什麼任何事情是\n我沒有提到這句話雖然我覺得人生無常但是我會講這句話國際的標準最重要一定要在安全國際的標準當然專家一直在\n一直在調整調整 但是一定都是在專家組有機會澄清一下 但是美方多次在國際場合對我國的豬肉的標示有關切雖然我們台民總統絕對認同原產地標示有助於什麼 很重要的\n讓消費者能夠做出符合個人在做選擇時的一個他的價值跟他的風險認知的一個參考依據但我請教部長衛福部有沒有評估過如果台灣針對美豬的原產地標示也會遭遇類似的法律訴訟呢就是他被裁定等一下我還有其他國家的例子就是我們如果堅定那我們要去準備面對國際法律的訴訟問題\n因為針對前在WTO的訴訟我們做了什麼樣的準備因為這是去談判不是在國內處理那談判這個其中我方的談判代表這個怎麼樣來互惠怎麼樣來幫我們爭取我們覺得應該要維持原來的制度我的重點在這裡也是我們今天討論的重點\n謝謝委員提醒,這個部分我想江市長是專家,那你怎麼樣?時間有限謝謝委員這邊的提問面對美國的豬肉的標示,當然是他們有提到可是這件事情在國內,我們對所有豬肉,不管是\n好吃的一筆一豬還是哪一國家的豬其實我們是一體適用一致的標示那也在回應所有全體民眾的一些關心所以做了我們的相關的規定到市場端其實是有做特定的一個標示謝謝署長 既然滿上一體適用但我為什麼要這樣問部長因為按照我國的民情政府認定萊克多巴胺這件事的殘留量的標準我們目前是認為有提高的必要性\n但綜合我們比較加州還有墨西哥他控告美國的前述案件結果確實被評定為是貿易壁壘有這樣的風險那在庫爾的案件當中WTO認為美國的做法對於進口肉品跟本國的肉品的待遇不一樣雖然表面上規定好像沒有不同但是進口廠商\n他確實要承擔了不同的程序跟成本所以他等同他這個裁定說等同貿易歧視那另一方面美國的這個全難聽標示也在訴訟中被裁定為就是你這個標示沒有辦法證明你政策正當性的一個佐證\n你這樣標示法沒有辦法證明在這個才事當中是如此所以換句話說台灣的辯護不能只靠民情封鎖民情而是要提出具體的科學證據那美方已經在2020年10月跟2020年2月的TPT會議當中還有前面我提到的國際貿易的障礙評估的報告當中多次提到這些標示對美國豬肉是會造成不利的影響\n面對我們國家的標準確實比國際標準高啊比國際標準嚴啊所以請問衛福部如何闡述我國行政機關的標準是符合WTO或是這個TBT的協定平等原則我擔心的是這個部分因為確實比國際高\n部長你可以做初步的回應嗎?非常謝謝委員這麼專業的指教也把可能比較擔心的我們也論述那我想我們我們國人有國人的一個飲食的文化所以我們在\n要求這個標準上面可能雖然我們一定要科學的分析也要符合國際的標準所以我們當然這就是兩難啊所以部長我請問的不是所以這個就是我們要一起來努力我們衛福部絕對在一直針對相關的議題相關的食品\n一定去做好科學的分析跟修正科學的修正然後了解到國際的一個整個標準的一個變化最重要我們要尊重我們國人膳食的一個習慣這樣來訂定相關的措施這個辯護還是要有一個相當的力道因為就是說用我們國人的民情風俗大概很難過關可是美國一旦的拋出國際壓力\n我想我們要堅持我方人民有知情權因為美國相對是人權思考的國家知情權行政機關要準備以科學證據跟法學的論述來佐證為什麼台灣會定出高於這個Codex\n我們為什麼會訂出高於Codex標準台灣如何在談判中說服美國說我國高於國際認定標準不是一種貿易障礙但是你如果只靠這個風俗民情沒有辦法是一個穩靠的這個立基點那也沒辦法作為這個國家的政策來對應可能引起的國際\n貿易的爭端所以我想說請就是說諸位參考我民眾黨的主張是第一個原產地標示不是貿易的壁壘它是提供消費者在做個人的進行個人的選擇時一種價值或是風險認知的一個參考依據就我們可以從這個觀點來想因為我們必須守護國民的知情權知道事情的這個權\n這個權利第二個原產地標示是大家也要去準備目前是最低標準其實我們的國人對於那個萊克多巴胺的部分他其實是更重視那當然他要我們全面開放所以這個部分你們要怎麼去克服怎麼樣去準備怎麼樣去說服我覺得很相當的艱難\n我們政府一定做好最好的準備,但是一定要在科學的根據還有符合一定,符合標準,符合國際的標準,最重要在這樣的情況之下,一定要提供給民眾知的權益,剛剛委員所提的\n最安全的食品每一個人會去認知 提供個參考我想副總代表也請你參考除了科學怎麼去解讀科學證據這是一個談判的手法跟技巧主席已經站起來了 謝謝三位我們繼續努力 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.347 --> 00:03.367\n委員長\n\n00:14.264 --> 00:40.751\n好部長早副總代表早那美國今年4月他發布了國家貿易障礙評估的這個報告他明白的指出台灣應該要依據科學證據跟國際規範取消對牛絞肉以及副產品的這個限制意思就是說要台灣全面開放美牛產品進口那麼我想先請問部長部長當時我們限制某些牛肉產品不能進口的原因是什麼你還記得嗎\n\n00:44.855 --> 01:04.128\n我們當然是根據科學的分析還有國際的標準在食安照顧國人食安的一個最大的原則之下來做相關的各種安慰那現在時到今天這些風險跟懷疑還存在嗎\n\n01:08.922 --> 01:18.010\n我想我們從以前到現在都是在衛福部的立場當然就是一直做科學的分析跟專業的態度同時也要根據這些科學的實證\n\n01:26.537 --> 01:53.145\n來參考國際的標準當時的認定標準現在是不是還存在當然我知道這不是一個容易回答的問題那這樣我先請教這個副總代表因為美國不斷的要求台灣要全面開放美牛那我們的立場要做改變嗎我們要進一步開放當時我們對牛絞肉跟它的副產品的限制以及有一些牛隻年齡的這個限制問題副總我想請你是不是就這個部分回答謝謝\n\n01:54.790 --> 02:13.722\n好那個謝委員我想當初我們對於牛角肉這些限制是來自於美國當初有BAC狂牛症的問題那但是狂牛症的這個認定實際上按照世界衛生動物組織他們的認定也不斷的針對狂牛症的認定有分為典型跟非典型的不同的一個病症\n\n02:14.242 --> 02:29.991\n那科學也不斷地在進步那我想對於我們台灣來說我們對於美國的產品是否要開放完全就是按照現在國際證據上面然後這些科學的評估會去認定說美國的產品到底安不安全來作為我們接下來討論的基礎\n\n02:31.252 --> 02:48.979\n不過目前到現在為止還是對於某些牛肉產品跟高齡的牛脂那個潛在的風險並沒有排除所以本身認為我們國不應該在還沒有確立的一個科學證據佐證下就全面開放這是我個人的一些想法\n\n02:50.539 --> 02:58.101\n同一份報告中美方有延續過去的立場認為台灣實施指明台灣實施豬肉原產地標示規定以及對進口豬實施萊克多巴胺的最高殘留量的限制這兩件事他們認定是對不公平的技術性貿易障礙影響美國出口的利益現在正逢準備要談判的期間我們都預期原產地的標示這會成為戰場之一\n\n03:18.866 --> 03:28.657\n那請教部長跟經貿談判副總代表我國是否會在談判過程當中堅定維持豬肉應該要標示原產地呢\n\n03:29.226 --> 03:49.593\n好,我們一定堅定、審慎、積極、智力法官、全國、國人的聲明,剛剛有講過,建構一個實在安心的環境所以我們要求豬肉跟牛肉原料原產地標示其實我們是一體適用於國產及所有輸入的豬肉跟\n\n03:51.614 --> 04:05.248\n我謝謝部長這樣子回答但是我要告訴部長是因為這次我們談判對象是美國美國他自己有個原產地標示法叫COOL他在2015年被自己的國會廢除了部分原產地標示規定\n\n04:06.229 --> 04:10.733\n那當時他們是為了因應WTO的加入那因為WTO對這項法案法規有一個裁釋就是說在爭端案當中WTO裁定美國的部分的原產地標示包含牛肉跟豬肉違反了TBD的這個協定二之一條還有第二之二條就裡面包括國民待遇和綜合國待遇還有不造成不必要這樣這個規定\n\n04:29.970 --> 04:32.052\n他們認定確實構成不必要的貿易障礙所以我想請教部長因為據我了解剛剛您在回答在外面回答這個記者的時候受訪就是說你有回答一個方式的回答說沒有什麼事情是不會改變的\n\n04:47.583 --> 04:50.924\n部長我請教你,你講的沒有什麼事情是不會改變的,是針對我國的這個標示,民文標示安法第22條這個標示原產地這個民文規定嗎?是不是要在美國的壓力下取消這個規定呢?你剛剛談話之意是不是如此呢?包委員我剛剛應該沒有提到那個沒有什麼任何事情是\n\n05:11.153 --> 05:14.556\n我沒有提到這句話雖然我覺得人生無常但是我會講這句話國際的標準最重要一定要在安全國際的標準當然專家一直在\n\n05:29.131 --> 05:35.536\n一直在調整調整但是一定都是在專家組有機會澄清一下但是美方多次在國際場合對我國的豬肉的標示有關切雖然我們台民總統絕對認同原產地標示有助於什麼很重要的\n\n05:48.907 --> 05:57.591\n讓消費者能夠做出符合個人在做選擇時的一個他的價值跟他的風險認知的一個參考依據但我請教部長衛福部有沒有評估過如果台灣針對美豬的原產地標示也會遭遇類似的法律訴訟呢就是他被裁定等一下我還有其他國家的例子就是我們如果堅定那我們要去準備面對國際法律的訴訟問題\n\n06:16.501 --> 06:33.568\n因為針對前在WTO的訴訟我們做了什麼樣的準備因為這是去談判不是在國內處理那談判這個其中我方的談判代表這個怎麼樣來互惠怎麼樣來幫我們爭取我們覺得應該要維持原來的制度我的重點在這裡也是我們今天討論的重點\n\n06:35.844 --> 06:43.451\n謝謝委員提醒,這個部分我想江市長是專家,那你怎麼樣?時間有限謝謝委員這邊的提問面對美國的豬肉的標示,當然是他們有提到可是這件事情在國內,我們對所有豬肉,不管是\n\n07:00.546 --> 07:27.478\n好吃的一筆一豬還是哪一國家的豬其實我們是一體適用一致的標示那也在回應所有全體民眾的一些關心所以做了我們的相關的規定到市場端其實是有做特定的一個標示謝謝署長既然滿上一體適用但我為什麼要這樣問部長因為按照我國的民情政府認定萊克多巴胺這件事的殘留量的標準我們目前是認為有提高的必要性\n\n07:28.678 --> 07:35.740\n但綜合我們比較加州還有墨西哥他控告美國的前述案件結果確實被評定為是貿易壁壘有這樣的風險那在庫爾的案件當中WTO認為美國的做法對於進口肉品跟本國的肉品的待遇不一樣雖然表面上規定好像沒有不同但是進口廠商\n\n07:51.883 --> 08:07.486\n他確實要承擔了不同的程序跟成本所以他等同他這個裁定說等同貿易歧視那另一方面美國的這個全難聽標示也在訴訟中被裁定為就是你這個標示沒有辦法證明你政策正當性的一個佐證\n\n08:08.707 --> 08:23.714\n你這樣標示法沒有辦法證明在這個才事當中是如此所以換句話說台灣的辯護不能只靠民情封鎖民情而是要提出具體的科學證據那美方已經在2020年10月跟2020年2月的TPT會議當中還有前面我提到的國際貿易的障礙評估的報告當中多次提到這些標示對美國豬肉是會造成不利的影響\n\n08:36.417 --> 08:52.391\n面對我們國家的標準確實比國際標準高啊比國際標準嚴啊所以請問衛福部如何闡述我國行政機關的標準是符合WTO或是這個TBT的協定平等原則我擔心的是這個部分因為確實比國際高\n\n08:54.153 --> 09:10.475\n部長你可以做初步的回應嗎?非常謝謝委員這麼專業的指教也把可能比較擔心的我們也論述那我想我們我們國人有國人的一個飲食的文化所以我們在\n\n09:11.676 --> 09:29.890\n要求這個標準上面可能雖然我們一定要科學的分析也要符合國際的標準所以我們當然這就是兩難啊所以部長我請問的不是所以這個就是我們要一起來努力我們衛福部絕對在一直針對相關的議題相關的食品\n\n09:31.900 --> 09:56.089\n一定去做好科學的分析跟修正科學的修正然後了解到國際的一個整個標準的一個變化最重要我們要尊重我們國人膳食的一個習慣這樣來訂定相關的措施這個辯護還是要有一個相當的力道因為就是說用我們國人的民情風俗大概很難過關可是美國一旦的拋出國際壓力\n\n09:57.689 --> 10:12.427\n我想我們要堅持我方人民有知情權因為美國相對是人權思考的國家知情權行政機關要準備以科學證據跟法學的論述來佐證為什麼台灣會定出高於這個Codex\n\n10:12.947 --> 10:19.775\n我們為什麼會訂出高於Codex標準台灣如何在談判中說服美國說我國高於國際認定標準不是一種貿易障礙但是你如果只靠這個風俗民情沒有辦法是一個穩靠的這個立基點那也沒辦法作為這個國家的政策來對應可能引起的國際\n\n10:30.568 --> 10:53.024\n貿易的爭端所以我想說請就是說諸位參考我民眾黨的主張是第一個原產地標示不是貿易的壁壘它是提供消費者在做個人的進行個人的選擇時一種價值或是風險認知的一個參考依據就我們可以從這個觀點來想因為我們必須守護國民的知情權知道事情的這個權\n\n10:54.625 --> 11:13.973\n這個權利第二個原產地標示是大家也要去準備目前是最低標準其實我們的國人對於那個萊克多巴胺的部分他其實是更重視那當然他要我們全面開放所以這個部分你們要怎麼去克服怎麼樣去準備怎麼樣去說服我覺得很相當的艱難\n\n11:16.696 --> 11:32.121\n我們政府一定做好最好的準備,但是一定要在科學的根據還有符合一定,符合標準,符合國際的標準,最重要在這樣的情況之下,一定要提供給民眾知的權益,剛剛委員所提的\n\n11:38.543 --> 11:51.088\n最安全的食品每一個人會去認知提供個參考我想副總代表也請你參考除了科學怎麼去解讀科學證據這是一個談判的手法跟技巧主席已經站起來了謝謝三位我們繼續努力謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.347,"end":3.367,"text":"委員長"},{"start":14.264,"end":40.751,"text":"好 部長早 副總代表早那美國今年4月他發布了國家貿易障礙評估的這個報告他明白的指出台灣應該要依據科學證據跟國際規範取消對牛絞肉以及副產品的這個限制意思就是說要台灣全面開放美牛產品進口那麼我想先請問部長部長當時我們限制某些牛肉產品不能進口的原因是什麼你還記得嗎"},{"start":44.855,"end":64.128,"text":"我們當然是根據科學的分析還有國際的標準在食安照顧國人食安的一個最大的原則之下來做相關的各種安慰那現在時到今天這些風險跟懷疑還存在嗎"},{"start":68.922,"end":78.01,"text":"我想我們從以前到現在都是在衛福部的立場當然就是一直做科學的分析跟專業的態度同時也要根據這些科學的實證"},{"start":86.537,"end":113.145,"text":"來參考國際的標準當時的認定標準現在是不是還存在當然我知道這不是一個容易回答的問題那這樣我先請教這個副總代表因為美國不斷的要求台灣要全面開放美牛那我們的立場要做改變嗎我們要進一步開放當時我們對牛絞肉跟它的副產品的限制以及有一些牛隻年齡的這個限制問題副總我想請你是不是就這個部分回答 謝謝"},{"start":114.79,"end":133.722,"text":"好那個謝委員我想當初我們對於牛角肉這些限制是來自於美國當初有BAC狂牛症的問題那但是狂牛症的這個認定實際上按照世界衛生動物組織他們的認定也不斷的針對狂牛症的認定有分為典型跟非典型的不同的一個病症"},{"start":134.242,"end":149.991,"text":"那科學也不斷地在進步那我想對於我們台灣來說我們對於美國的產品是否要開放完全就是按照現在國際證據上面然後這些科學的評估會去認定說美國的產品到底安不安全來作為我們接下來討論的基礎"},{"start":151.252,"end":168.979,"text":"不過目前到現在為止還是對於某些牛肉產品跟高齡的牛脂那個潛在的風險並沒有排除所以本身認為我們國不應該在還沒有確立的一個科學證據佐證下就全面開放這是我個人的一些想法"},{"start":170.539,"end":178.101,"text":"同一份報告中美方有延續過去的立場認為台灣實施指明台灣實施豬肉原產地標示規定以及對進口豬實施萊克多巴胺的最高殘留量的限制這兩件事他們認定是對不公平的技術性貿易障礙影響美國出口的利益現在正逢準備要談判的期間我們都預期原產地的標示這會成為戰場之一"},{"start":198.866,"end":208.657,"text":"那請教部長跟經貿談判副總代表我國是否會在談判過程當中堅定維持豬肉應該要標示原產地呢"},{"start":209.226,"end":229.593,"text":"好,我們一定堅定、審慎、積極、智力法官、全國、國人的聲明,剛剛有講過,建構一個實在安心的環境所以我們要求豬肉跟牛肉原料原產地標示其實我們是一體適用於國產及所有輸入的豬肉跟"},{"start":231.614,"end":245.248,"text":"我謝謝部長這樣子回答但是我要告訴部長是因為這次我們談判對象是美國美國他自己有個原產地標示法叫COOL他在2015年被自己的國會廢除了部分原產地標示規定"},{"start":246.229,"end":250.733,"text":"那當時他們是為了因應WTO的加入那因為WTO對這項法案法規有一個裁釋就是說在爭端案當中WTO裁定美國的部分的原產地標示包含牛肉跟豬肉違反了TBD的這個協定二之一條還有第二之二條就裡面包括國民待遇和綜合國待遇還有不造成不必要這樣這個規定"},{"start":269.97,"end":272.052,"text":"他們認定確實構成不必要的貿易障礙所以我想請教部長因為據我了解剛剛您在回答在外面回答這個記者的時候受訪就是說你有回答一個方式的回答說沒有什麼事情是不會改變的"},{"start":287.583,"end":290.924,"text":"部長我請教你,你講的沒有什麼事情是不會改變的,是針對我國的這個標示,民文標示安法第22條這個標示原產地這個民文規定嗎?是不是要在美國的壓力下取消這個規定呢?你剛剛談話之意是不是如此呢?包委員我剛剛應該沒有提到那個沒有什麼任何事情是"},{"start":311.153,"end":314.556,"text":"我沒有提到這句話雖然我覺得人生無常但是我會講這句話國際的標準最重要一定要在安全國際的標準當然專家一直在"},{"start":329.131,"end":335.536,"text":"一直在調整調整 但是一定都是在專家組有機會澄清一下 但是美方多次在國際場合對我國的豬肉的標示有關切雖然我們台民總統絕對認同原產地標示有助於什麼 很重要的"},{"start":348.907,"end":357.591,"text":"讓消費者能夠做出符合個人在做選擇時的一個他的價值跟他的風險認知的一個參考依據但我請教部長衛福部有沒有評估過如果台灣針對美豬的原產地標示也會遭遇類似的法律訴訟呢就是他被裁定等一下我還有其他國家的例子就是我們如果堅定那我們要去準備面對國際法律的訴訟問題"},{"start":376.501,"end":393.568,"text":"因為針對前在WTO的訴訟我們做了什麼樣的準備因為這是去談判不是在國內處理那談判這個其中我方的談判代表這個怎麼樣來互惠怎麼樣來幫我們爭取我們覺得應該要維持原來的制度我的重點在這裡也是我們今天討論的重點"},{"start":395.844,"end":403.451,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,這個部分我想江市長是專家,那你怎麼樣?時間有限謝謝委員這邊的提問面對美國的豬肉的標示,當然是他們有提到可是這件事情在國內,我們對所有豬肉,不管是"},{"start":420.546,"end":447.478,"text":"好吃的一筆一豬還是哪一國家的豬其實我們是一體適用一致的標示那也在回應所有全體民眾的一些關心所以做了我們的相關的規定到市場端其實是有做特定的一個標示謝謝署長 既然滿上一體適用但我為什麼要這樣問部長因為按照我國的民情政府認定萊克多巴胺這件事的殘留量的標準我們目前是認為有提高的必要性"},{"start":448.678,"end":455.74,"text":"但綜合我們比較加州還有墨西哥他控告美國的前述案件結果確實被評定為是貿易壁壘有這樣的風險那在庫爾的案件當中WTO認為美國的做法對於進口肉品跟本國的肉品的待遇不一樣雖然表面上規定好像沒有不同但是進口廠商"},{"start":471.883,"end":487.486,"text":"他確實要承擔了不同的程序跟成本所以他等同他這個裁定說等同貿易歧視那另一方面美國的這個全難聽標示也在訴訟中被裁定為就是你這個標示沒有辦法證明你政策正當性的一個佐證"},{"start":488.707,"end":503.714,"text":"你這樣標示法沒有辦法證明在這個才事當中是如此所以換句話說台灣的辯護不能只靠民情封鎖民情而是要提出具體的科學證據那美方已經在2020年10月跟2020年2月的TPT會議當中還有前面我提到的國際貿易的障礙評估的報告當中多次提到這些標示對美國豬肉是會造成不利的影響"},{"start":516.417,"end":532.391,"text":"面對我們國家的標準確實比國際標準高啊比國際標準嚴啊所以請問衛福部如何闡述我國行政機關的標準是符合WTO或是這個TBT的協定平等原則我擔心的是這個部分因為確實比國際高"},{"start":534.153,"end":550.475,"text":"部長你可以做初步的回應嗎?非常謝謝委員這麼專業的指教也把可能比較擔心的我們也論述那我想我們我們國人有國人的一個飲食的文化所以我們在"},{"start":551.676,"end":569.89,"text":"要求這個標準上面可能雖然我們一定要科學的分析也要符合國際的標準所以我們當然這就是兩難啊所以部長我請問的不是所以這個就是我們要一起來努力我們衛福部絕對在一直針對相關的議題相關的食品"},{"start":571.9,"end":596.089,"text":"一定去做好科學的分析跟修正科學的修正然後了解到國際的一個整個標準的一個變化最重要我們要尊重我們國人膳食的一個習慣這樣來訂定相關的措施這個辯護還是要有一個相當的力道因為就是說用我們國人的民情風俗大概很難過關可是美國一旦的拋出國際壓力"},{"start":597.689,"end":612.427,"text":"我想我們要堅持我方人民有知情權因為美國相對是人權思考的國家知情權行政機關要準備以科學證據跟法學的論述來佐證為什麼台灣會定出高於這個Codex"},{"start":612.947,"end":619.775,"text":"我們為什麼會訂出高於Codex標準台灣如何在談判中說服美國說我國高於國際認定標準不是一種貿易障礙但是你如果只靠這個風俗民情沒有辦法是一個穩靠的這個立基點那也沒辦法作為這個國家的政策來對應可能引起的國際"},{"start":630.568,"end":653.024,"text":"貿易的爭端所以我想說請就是說諸位參考我民眾黨的主張是第一個原產地標示不是貿易的壁壘它是提供消費者在做個人的進行個人的選擇時一種價值或是風險認知的一個參考依據就我們可以從這個觀點來想因為我們必須守護國民的知情權知道事情的這個權"},{"start":654.625,"end":673.973,"text":"這個權利第二個原產地標示是大家也要去準備目前是最低標準其實我們的國人對於那個萊克多巴胺的部分他其實是更重視那當然他要我們全面開放所以這個部分你們要怎麼去克服怎麼樣去準備怎麼樣去說服我覺得很相當的艱難"},{"start":676.696,"end":692.121,"text":"我們政府一定做好最好的準備,但是一定要在科學的根據還有符合一定,符合標準,符合國際的標準,最重要在這樣的情況之下,一定要提供給民眾知的權益,剛剛委員所提的"},{"start":698.543,"end":711.088,"text":"最安全的食品每一個人會去認知 提供個參考我想副總代表也請你參考除了科學怎麼去解讀科學證據這是一個談判的手法跟技巧主席已經站起來了 謝謝三位我們繼續努力 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時26分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長，還有經貿談判顏慧欣副總代表，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早安。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早、副總代表早。美國今年4月發布的國家貿易障礙評估報告，明白指出臺灣應該要依據科學證據與國際規範取消對牛絞肉及副產品的限制，意思就是要臺灣全面開放美牛產品進口，先請問部長，當時我們限制某些牛肉產品不能進口的原因是什麼？你還記得嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然是根據科學分析，還有國際標準，在照顧國人食安最大的原則之下來做相關的各種談判。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，請問你時至今日，這些風險及懷疑還存在嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們從以前到現在，在衛福部的立場，當然就是一直做科學的分析及以專業的態度，同時也要根據這些科學的實證來參考國際的標準……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我的意思是，時間改變了，當時的認定標準現在是不是還存在？當然我知道這不是一個容易回答的問題。","那我先請教副總代表，因為美國不斷地要求臺灣要全面開放美牛，我們的立場要做改變嗎？要進一步開放當時我們對牛絞肉與其副產品的限制，以及牛隻年齡限制的問題，副總代表，請你就這個部分回答，謝謝。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員。當初我們對於牛絞肉有這些限制是來自於美國當初有BSE狂牛症的問題，但是狂牛症的認定實際上要按照世界動物衛生組織他們的認定，針對狂牛症的認定有分為典型及非典型不同的病症，科學也不斷地在進步，我想對於臺灣來說，對於美國的產品是否要開放完全就是按照現在國際證據上面，這些科學的評估會去認定美國的產品到底安不安全，來作為我們接下來討論的基礎。"],["陳委員昭姿：不過，目前到現在為止，還是對於某些牛肉產品跟高齡牛隻其潛在的風險並沒有排除，所以本席認為我國不應該在還沒有確立的科學證據佐證下就全面開放，這是我個人的一些想法。","同一份報告中，美方延續過去的立場，指名臺灣實施豬肉原產地標示規定，以及對進口豬實施萊克多巴胺最高殘留量的限制，這兩件事他們認定是不公平的技術性貿易障礙，影響美國出口的利益。現在正逢準備要談判的期間，我們都預期原產地的標示會成為戰場之一。請教部長及經貿談判副總代表，我國是否會在談判過程當中，堅定維持豬肉應該要標示原產地呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定堅定、審慎、積極致力於把關全國國人的食品安全，剛剛有講過，建構一個食在安心的環境，所以我們要求豬肉跟牛肉原料、原產地標示，其實我們是一體適用於國產及所有輸入的豬肉跟牛肉產品。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長這樣子回答，但是我要告訴部長的是，因為這次我們談判的對象是美國，美國自己有原產地標示法叫COOL，在2015年被自己的國會廢除了部分原產地標示規定，當時他們是為了因應WTO的加入，因為WTO對這項法案法規有個裁示，就是在爭端案當中，WTO裁定美國的部分原產地標示，包含牛肉及豬肉，違反了TBT協定第2.1條還有第2.2條，裡面包括國民待遇與最惠國待遇，還有不造成不必要障礙的規定，他們認定確實構成不必要的貿易障礙。所以我想請教部長，因為據我了解，剛剛您在外面回答記者的時候，受訪時你有回答說沒有什麼事情是不會改變的，部長，我請教你，你講的這句話是針對我國食品標示所依據的食安法第二十二條標示原產地的明文規定嗎？是不是要在美國的壓力下取消這個規定呢？你剛剛的談話之意是不是如此？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我剛剛應該沒有提到沒有什麼任何事情是……"],["陳委員昭姿：這樣子喔！好像媒體都聽到了。"],["邱部長泰源：我沒有提到這句話，我絕對不會去講這個。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那就現在澄清了。"],["邱部長泰源：雖然我覺得人生無常，但是我也不會講那句話。"],["陳委員昭姿：人生無常！"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛我們是針對國際的標準……"],["陳委員昭姿：媒體朋友，你們聽錯了！"],["邱部長泰源：最重要一定要在安全……國際的標準當然專家一直在調整、調整，但是一定都是在……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，謝謝，就是有機會澄清一下。但是美方多次在國際場合對我國的豬肉標示表示關切，雖然我們台灣民眾黨絕對認同原產地標示有助於什麼？很重要的就是讓消費者能夠做出符合個人選擇時的價值與風險認知的參考依據。但是我請教部長，衛福部有沒有評估過，如果臺灣針對美豬的原產地標示，也會遭遇類似的法律訴訟呢？就是它被裁定……等一下我還有其他國家的例子，就是我們如果堅定，那我們要去準備面對國際法律的訴訟問題，因為針對潛在的WTO訴訟，我們做了什麼樣的準備？因為這次是去談判，不是在國內處理，談判期間，我方的談判代表怎麼樣來護衛、怎麼樣來幫我們爭取維持原來的制度？我的重點在這裡，也是我們今天討論的重點。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員提醒。這個部分，我想食藥署署長……"],["陳委員昭姿：姜署長您要……"],["邱部長泰源：姜署長是專家，那你怎麼樣……"],["陳委員昭姿：姜署長，請簡短喔！因為時間有限。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員這邊的提問。面對美國豬肉的標示，當然他們有提到，可是這件事情在國內對所有豬肉，不管是好吃的伊比利豬還是哪一個國家的豬，其實我們是一體適用、一致的標示，也在回應全體民眾的一些關心，所以做了相關的規定，到市場端其實是有做特定的標示。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝署長。基本上一體適用，但我為什麼要這樣問部長？因為按照我國的民情，政府認定萊克多巴胺殘留量的標準，我們目前是認為有提高的必要性，但綜合比較加州還有墨西哥控告美國的前述案件，結果確實被評定為是貿易壁壘的風險。在COOL的案件當中，WTO認為美國的作法對於進口肉品與本國肉品的待遇不一樣，雖然表面上規定好像沒有不同，但是進口廠商確實要承擔不同的程序及成本，所以這個裁定等同貿易歧視。另一方面，美國原產地標示也在訴訟中被裁定為，這個標示沒有辦法證明其政策正當性的佐證，就是這樣標示法沒有辦法證明，在這個裁示當中是如此。所以換句話說，臺灣的辯護不能只靠風俗民情，而是要提出具體的科學證據。美方已經在2020年10月及2021年2月的TBT會議當中，還有前面我提到的國際貿易障礙評估的報告當中，多次提到這些標示對美國豬肉會造成不利的影響，面對我們國家的標準確實比國際標準高，比國際標準嚴，所以請問衛福部，如何闡述我國行政機關的標準是符合WTO或是TBT協定的平等原則，我擔心的是這個部分，因為確實比國際高，部長，你可以做初步的回應嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：非常謝謝委員這麼專業的指教，也把可能比較擔心的，我們也論述，我想我們國人有國人的飲食文化，所以我們在要求的標準上可能，雖然我們一定要科學的分析，也要符合國際的標準，所以我們當然絕對……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，這就是兩難啊！所以部長，其實我問的這個不是你可以解決的。"],["邱部長泰源：對，所以這個就是我們要一起來努力，我們衛福部絕對一直針對相關的議題、相關的食品，一定去做好科學的分析跟蒐證，科學的蒐證，然後也了解到整個國際標準的變化，最重要的是我們要尊重我們國人的膳食習慣，據此來訂定相關的措施。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們的辯護還是要有相當的力道，用我們國人的民情風俗為理由大概很難過關，可是美國一再地向國際社會施壓，我想我們要堅持我方人民有知情權。因為美國相對來講是人權思考的國家，所以我們要堅持知情權，行政機關要有完整的準備，以科學證據跟法學的論述，來佐證為什麼臺灣會定出高於Codex的標準。我們為什麼會定出高於Codex標準？臺灣如何在談判中說服美國，我國高於國際認定標準不是一種貿易障礙，但是如果只靠風俗民情的說法，不是一個穩靠的利基點，也沒有辦法作為國家的政策來對應可能引起的國際貿易爭端。","所以我想請諸位參考，我們民眾黨的主張是第一個，原產地標示不是貿易的壁壘，它是提供消費者在進行個人的選擇時一種價值或是風險認知的參考依據，我們可以從這個觀點來想，因為我們必須守護國民的知情權（知道事情的權利）。第二個，原產地標示這部分大家也要有心理準備，目前是最低標準，其實我們的國人對於萊克多巴胺的部分是更重視的，當然他要我們全面開放，所以這個部分你們要怎麼去克服，怎麼樣去準備，怎麼樣去說服，我覺得相當的艱難。"],["邱部長泰源：是。我們政府一定會做最好的準備，但是一定要在科學的根據還有符合標準，尤其符合國際的標準最重要，在這樣的情況之下，一定要提供給民眾知的權利，剛剛委員所提的，還有最安全的食品。"],["陳委員昭姿：是，部長，這是科學證據的詮釋，對，每個人會去認知，提供一個參考，我想也請副總代表參考，除了科學之外，怎麼去解讀科學證據，這是一個談判的手法跟技巧。","主席已經站起來了，好，謝謝、謝謝三位，謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們繼續努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}}