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280.386, \"text\": \"還沒還沒對不對其實連美國現在也還沒有找到最終處置的場址那麼中期暫存以及最終處置的場址沒有選還沒有地方可以來設置的時候來興建的時候我們如何繼續使用核能如何繼續產生核廢料導致這樣子沒有辦法處理核廢料問題這是社會的共識沒有辦法處理核廢料我們要如何繼續使用核電\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 252.696, \"end\": 252.876, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 252.876, \"end\": 253.217, \"score\": 0.619}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 253.217, \"end\": 253.777, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 253.777, \"end\": 254.237, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 254.237, \"end\": 254.817, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 254.817, \"end\": 254.977, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 254.977, \"end\": 255.237, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 255.237, \"end\": 255.337, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 255.337, \"end\": 255.437, \"score\": 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Reactor裡面讓它消除掉等等技術還在研發之中所以目前根據還沒有到最終要決定要怎麼處理的時候我們大概會跟世界大概相同方法來處理這方面的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 334.98, \"end\": 337.041, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 337.041, \"end\": 337.322, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 337.322, \"end\": 337.502, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 337.502, \"end\": 337.662, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 337.662, \"end\": 337.762, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 337.762, \"end\": 338.182, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 338.182, \"end\": 338.923, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 338.923, \"end\": 339.063, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 339.063, \"end\": 339.163, \"score\": 0.541}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 339.163, \"end\": 339.303, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 339.303, \"end\": 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\"end\": 658.956, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"秀\", \"start\": 658.956, \"end\": 659.097, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 659.097, \"end\": 659.277, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 659.277, \"end\": 660.04, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 660.04, \"end\": 660.181, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 660.181, \"end\": 660.562, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 660.562, \"end\": 660.582, \"score\": 0.971}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,994 --> 00:00:13,126\n謝謝主席請陳主委好有請陳主委\n\n2\n00:00:19,943 --> 00:00:45,544\n主委早首先先跟主委這邊來討論一下關於我們河岸會這邊預算遭煽動的部分根據河岸會這邊給本席的資料河岸會遭通案刪減的部分有國內的差旅費20%那媒體政策及業務宣導費也是高達60%那其中本席比較關心是關於荷普教育本席想要請教關於如果差旅費遭刪減\n\n3\n00:00:46,425 --> 00:01:12,524\n会不会影响到我们河安会的同仁到各地参与科展以及科普宣传是有影响的那如果会影响的话你们的规划跟你们有折衷的方法做法是什么我们就用网路或视讯等等方式来减少旅费支出那同仁去参与的部分呢如果没有旅费你们可以怎么做\n\n4\n00:01:15,711 --> 00:01:41,584\n就只能用網路上的這些相關的我們盡量想辦法在現有預算之內來達成我們的目標其實我覺得說核安會的工作除了說確保台灣的核能安全之外社會也給予我們核安會很高的教育的期待那我們也希望說核安會可以提供給民眾更多正確的核能知識所以這邊我也要請教一下核安會關於你們今年科普活動的規劃\n\n5\n00:01:42,785 --> 00:01:55,932\n在被這個隨意的煽動這些相當多的預算之後呢這很顯然好像就是刻意的要阻擋正確的核安知識的傳播那核安會這邊你們對今年科普活動你們的規劃是怎麼樣請我們的中衛組組長來\n\n6\n00:02:00,414 --> 00:02:25,499\n報告委員今年我們一樣有兩場的自辦的原子能科普展有一場已經在這個上禮拜六禮拜天在國立科教館已經辦理完成大概參與的民眾有八千多人我想就誠如委員所講的核安會是非常重視原子能科普教育但是當然因為拆旅費的刪減多少總是會有影響當然我們只好就盡力的節省費用\n\n7\n00:02:25,959 --> 00:02:49,808\n那第二場的科普展我們是規劃在下半年度在新北市辦理以上所以你們這兩就是今年只能辦兩場目前的規劃是這個樣子包括委員市就是我們自辦的科普展因為我們都是請同仁實際上到現場跟現場的民眾直接溝通所以我們會耗費我們比較多的人力以上\n\n8\n00:02:50,208 --> 00:03:17,208\n你谢谢核安会这边很尽力的在我刚刚说的传达正确的这些相关的核安知识给民众我也希望你们可以再继续努力在你们有限的这些经费跟预算的状况之下还是要传递正确的这些核能相关的讯息那主委我再请教您之前有立委运用中研院的报告来表示说干事储存场还有空间所以根本不存在核废掉的后续处置问题是真的吗\n\n9\n00:03:19,778 --> 00:03:43,818\n乾式儲存場目前我們是正在興建一些乾式儲存場我的意思是說我們按照標準的安全的核廢料處理高階的核廢料後續處置我們是先放乾式儲存場然後再來移到中期站儲存場最後必須移轉到最終處置設施是不是這樣子\n\n10\n00:03:45,828 --> 00:04:08,624\n那請問核廢料可以一直放在乾式儲存場嗎到一定程度以後一定要做下一步處理那麼核廢料的儲存就是包含了在後期的話包含中期的暫存以及最終儲置那麼我們已經有找到最終儲置的場址了嗎\n\n11\n00:04:12,696 --> 00:04:40,386\n還沒還沒對不對其實連美國現在也還沒有找到最終處置的場址那麼中期暫存以及最終處置的場址沒有選還沒有地方可以來設置的時候來興建的時候我們如何繼續使用核能如何繼續產生核廢料導致這樣子沒有辦法處理核廢料問題這是社會的共識沒有辦法處理核廢料我們要如何繼續使用核電\n\n12\n00:04:41,286 --> 00:05:01,851\n主委您覺得目前我們高階核廢料是放在乾式儲存就是全世界都是這樣處理的目前這樣子處理但是我們最終的處置是不是還沒有辦法處理所以我們核廢料也不能一直只放在乾式儲存場\n\n13\n00:05:04,409 --> 00:05:33,509\n全世界趨勢是這樣並不是把高階核廢料直接埋在地下將來大概不會往這條路走大概會比較可能會再處理把高階核廢料移出來因為裡面還有很多其他的有用的材料可以繼續使用將來的方法大概是這樣把高階核廢料移除出來然後再經過高階核廢料\n\n14\n00:05:34,980 --> 00:06:02,540\n也經過各種高科技的處理這些處理方式現在還在研發之中譬如說用加速器把它撞擊之後變成低階核廢料或把高階核廢料放在Multi-SoleReactor裡面讓它消除掉等等技術還在研發之中所以目前根據還沒有到最終要決定要怎麼處理的時候我們大概會跟世界大概相同方法來處理這方面的問題\n\n15\n00:06:03,393 --> 00:06:31,244\n那在這邊我以主委您的專業我再次的跟您確認不是就是說我們的核廢料不能一直放在乾式儲存場是吧對所以我們也不能被斷章取義的這些訊息來誤導並不是有乾式儲存場我們就可以繼續發電繼續產出核廢料中期的暫存以及最終的處置選址才是我們是不是繼續使用核電的關鍵您覺得是不是\n\n16\n00:06:33,805 --> 00:06:35,086\n最終廚師長遲早要有地方儲存這些核廢料\n\n17\n00:06:41,873 --> 00:06:47,858\n是的我們要找到這個儲存場最終的儲值再來呢根據媒體的報導日本媒體報導說日本有民眾有高達31%的民眾認為應該要降低核電的佔比這個在目前的局勢這樣的事情是很不一樣的意見那也表示說核能的發展其實最重要的其實就是民意的趨勢那台灣跟日本都有民眾對減少核電有更多的表態\n\n18\n00:07:09,875 --> 00:07:19,403\n所以說呢核能的發展除了民意基礎社會共識也要有能力來處理核廢料諸位您覺得這樣子的說法您是不是認同\n\n19\n00:07:21,953 --> 00:07:46,094\n是的那既然我們現在最終的處置的場子沒有找到我們沒有辦法找到目前沒有辦法處理最末端那麼台灣其實就沒有本錢來繼續發展核電如果台灣的民眾對核電還有極高的疑慮我們也沒有持續發展核電的本錢主委您覺得呢我請陳署長代表回答一下好嗎好請回答\n\n20\n00:07:47,125 --> 00:08:07,890\n報告委員國內目前的核廢料低介部分都在電廠裡面儲存那高介部分我們目前是走的是水池儲存乾式儲存那將來要進行最終處置那目前的狀況就是我們盡力來先做好乾式儲存的一個\n\n21\n00:08:08,490 --> 00:08:12,012\n因為現在只能放在單市儲存將來會繼續來做最終處置所以經濟部才會去設專案辦公室來推這一塊\n\n22\n00:08:18,496 --> 00:08:39,968\n好那再來我跟您諸葛請教這幾年關於SMR就是小型模組化反應爐討論度很高那英國在2022年投資的包含AMR的相關六項的核技術研究那義大利也近期表示會重啟核能那其中也再度的提到小型模組化反應爐但是根據2024世界核能產業現況報告裡面有提到\n\n23\n00:08:45,251 --> 00:08:52,798\nSMR過度的炒作跟產業現實之間的差距持續的擴大而且有小型模組化反應爐的計畫持續的延遲或取消主委您認為目前國際間SMR的發展技術真的有一開始說的那麼好嗎目前國際間SMR的發展和安慧這邊是我們自己在研究還是有跟國外來攜手\n\n24\n00:09:10,781 --> 00:09:27,814\n据统计全世界有参与SMR研究的企业或研究单位大概有90几家最后能胜出的只是少数几家多数在竞争过程中会被淘汰的\n\n25\n00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:38,486\n因為其實在投入之間他們也發現說這個成本非常的昂貴所以致使很多計畫會延遲或取消那本席這邊要強調的是說關於SMR它其實這樣子的反應爐它一樣會核廢掉的問題\n\n26\n00:09:44,551 --> 00:09:47,373\n如果我們沒有辦法處理核廢料那目前我們堆置在核電廠裡面的燃料棒移出來乾式儲存後我們沒有辦法做最終處理的話無論國際間如何吹捧SMR的好處但是所產生的核廢料一樣是沒有辦法處理我們還是沒有這樣的本錢來繼續發展核電\n\n27\n00:10:05,168 --> 00:10:27,936\n那這個部分呢我們就在這邊我們不要再關於討論這個部分我是希望說國際間的趨勢我們還是要掌握我們不管說我們自己本身的核電我們發展到怎樣的地步我們跟國際間的合作跟我們自己本身關於核電的這些技術都要持續的發展持續的了解持續的掌握\n\n28\n00:10:29,884 --> 00:10:54,179\n是,我們跟國際像IdolInternational去年八月開始就有赴訪那中間也每三個月定期開一次會所以我們跟國際還有日本這個美國其他單位MIT都有合作赴訪的program在裡面隨時會follow這個進度國進最新核能技術的發展我們會明確來注意尤其是SMR方面相關的技術好謝謝,謝謝主委,謝謝主席\n\n29\n00:10:57,932 --> 00:11:00,582\n好謝謝神秀包委員主委請回\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9994\t13126\t謝謝主席 請陳主委好 有請陳主委\n19943\t45544\t主委早首先先跟主委這邊來討論一下關於我們河岸會這邊預算遭煽動的部分根據河岸會這邊給本席的資料河岸會遭通案刪減的部分有國內的差旅費20%那媒體政策及業務宣導費也是高達60%那其中本席比較關心是關於荷普教育本席想要請教關於如果差旅費遭刪減\n46425\t72524\t会不会影响到我们河安会的同仁到各地参与科展以及科普宣传是有影响的那如果会影响的话你们的规划跟你们有折衷的方法做法是什么我们就用网路或视讯等等方式来减少旅费支出那同仁去参与的部分呢如果没有旅费你们可以怎么做\n75711\t101584\t就只能用網路上的這些相關的我們盡量想辦法在現有預算之內來達成我們的目標其實我覺得說核安會的工作除了說確保台灣的核能安全之外社會也給予我們核安會很高的教育的期待那我們也希望說核安會可以提供給民眾更多正確的核能知識所以這邊我也要請教一下核安會關於你們今年科普活動的規劃\n102785\t115932\t在被這個隨意的煽動這些相當多的預算之後呢這很顯然好像就是刻意的要阻擋正確的核安知識的傳播那核安會這邊你們對今年科普活動你們的規劃是怎麼樣請我們的中衛組組長來\n120414\t145499\t報告委員今年我們一樣有兩場的自辦的原子能科普展有一場已經在這個上禮拜六禮拜天在國立科教館已經辦理完成大概參與的民眾有八千多人我想就誠如委員所講的核安會是非常重視原子能科普教育但是當然因為拆旅費的刪減多少總是會有影響當然我們只好就盡力的節省費用\n145959\t169808\t那第二場的科普展我們是規劃在下半年度在新北市辦理以上所以你們這兩就是今年只能辦兩場目前的規劃是這個樣子包括委員市就是我們自辦的科普展因為我們都是請同仁實際上到現場跟現場的民眾直接溝通所以我們會耗費我們比較多的人力以上\n170208\t197208\t你谢谢核安会这边很尽力的在我刚刚说的传达正确的这些相关的核安知识给民众我也希望你们可以再继续努力在你们有限的这些经费跟预算的状况之下还是要传递正确的这些核能相关的讯息那主委我再请教您之前有立委运用中研院的报告来表示说干事储存场还有空间所以根本不存在核废掉的后续处置问题是真的吗\n199778\t223818\t乾式儲存場目前我們是正在興建一些乾式儲存場我的意思是說我們按照標準的安全的核廢料處理高階的核廢料後續處置我們是先放乾式儲存場然後再來移到中期站儲存場最後必須移轉到最終處置設施是不是這樣子\n225828\t248624\t那請問核廢料可以一直放在乾式儲存場嗎到一定程度以後一定要做下一步處理那麼核廢料的儲存就是包含了在後期的話包含中期的暫存以及最終儲置那麼我們已經有找到最終儲置的場址了嗎\n252696\t280386\t還沒還沒對不對其實連美國現在也還沒有找到最終處置的場址那麼中期暫存以及最終處置的場址沒有選還沒有地方可以來設置的時候來興建的時候我們如何繼續使用核能如何繼續產生核廢料導致這樣子沒有辦法處理核廢料問題這是社會的共識沒有辦法處理核廢料我們要如何繼續使用核電\n281286\t301851\t主委您覺得目前我們高階核廢料是放在乾式儲存就是全世界都是這樣處理的目前這樣子處理但是我們最終的處置是不是還沒有辦法處理所以我們核廢料也不能一直只放在乾式儲存場\n304409\t333509\t全世界趨勢是這樣並不是把高階核廢料直接埋在地下將來大概不會往這條路走大概會比較可能會再處理把高階核廢料移出來因為裡面還有很多其他的有用的材料可以繼續使用將來的方法大概是這樣把高階核廢料移除出來然後再經過高階核廢料\n334980\t362540\t也經過各種高科技的處理這些處理方式現在還在研發之中譬如說用加速器把它撞擊之後變成低階核廢料或把高階核廢料放在Multi-Sole Reactor裡面讓它消除掉等等技術還在研發之中所以目前根據還沒有到最終要決定要怎麼處理的時候我們大概會跟世界大概相同方法來處理這方面的問題\n363393\t391244\t那在這邊我以主委您的專業我再次的跟您確認不是就是說我們的核廢料不能一直放在乾式儲存場是吧對所以我們也不能被斷章取義的這些訊息來誤導並不是有乾式儲存場我們就可以繼續發電繼續產出核廢料中期的暫存以及最終的處置選址才是我們是不是繼續使用核電的關鍵您覺得是不是\n393805\t395086\t最終廚師長遲早要有地方儲存這些核廢料\n401873\t407858\t是的 我們要找到這個儲存場最終的儲值再來呢 根據媒體的報導日本媒體報導說日本有民眾有高達31%的民眾認為應該要降低核電的佔比這個在目前的局勢這樣的事情是很不一樣的意見那也表示說核能的發展其實最重要的其實就是民意的趨勢那台灣跟日本都有民眾對減少核電有更多的表態\n429875\t439403\t所以說呢核能的發展除了民意基礎社會共識也要有能力來處理核廢料諸位您覺得這樣子的說法您是不是認同\n441953\t466094\t是的那既然我們現在最終的處置的場子沒有找到我們沒有辦法找到目前沒有辦法處理最末端那麼台灣其實就沒有本錢來繼續發展核電如果台灣的民眾對核電還有極高的疑慮我們也沒有持續發展核電的本錢主委您覺得呢我請陳署長代表回答一下好嗎好請回答\n467125\t487890\t報告委員 國內目前的核廢料 低介部分都在電廠裡面儲存那高介部分我們目前是走的是水池儲存 乾式儲存那將來要進行最終處置 那目前的狀況就是我們盡力來先做好乾式儲存的一個\n488490\t492012\t因為現在只能放在單市儲存將來會繼續來做最終處置所以經濟部才會去設專案辦公室來推這一塊\n498496\t519968\t好那再來我跟您諸葛請教這幾年關於SMR就是小型模組化反應爐討論度很高那英國在2022年投資的包含AMR的相關六項的核技術研究那義大利也近期表示會重啟核能那其中也再度的提到小型模組化反應爐但是根據2024世界核能產業現況報告裡面有提到\n525251\t532798\tSMR過度的炒作跟產業現實之間的差距持續的擴大而且有小型模組化反應爐的計畫持續的延遲或取消主委您認為目前國際間SMR的發展技術真的有一開始說的那麼好嗎目前國際間SMR的發展和安慧這邊是我們自己在研究還是有跟國外來攜手\n550781\t567814\t据统计全世界有参与SMR研究的企业或研究单位大概有90几家最后能胜出的只是少数几家多数在竞争过程中会被淘汰的\n568919\t578486\t因為其實在投入之間他們也發現說這個成本非常的昂貴所以致使很多計畫會延遲或取消那本席這邊要強調的是說關於SMR它其實這樣子的反應爐它一樣會核廢掉的問題\n584551\t587373\t如果我們沒有辦法處理核廢料那目前我們堆置在核電廠裡面的燃料棒移出來乾式儲存後我們沒有辦法做最終處理的話無論國際間如何吹捧SMR的好處但是所產生的核廢料一樣是沒有辦法處理我們還是沒有這樣的本錢來繼續發展核電\n605168\t627936\t那這個部分呢 我們就在這邊 我們不要再關於討論這個部分我是希望說 國際間的趨勢我們還是要掌握我們不管說我們自己本身的核電 我們發展到怎樣的地步我們跟國際間的合作 跟我們自己本身關於核電的這些技術都要持續的發展 持續的了解 持續的掌握\n629884\t654179\t是,我們跟國際像Idol International去年八月開始就有赴訪那中間也每三個月定期開一次會所以我們跟國際還有日本這個美國其他單位MIT都有合作赴訪的program在裡面隨時會follow這個進度國進最新核能技術的發展我們會明確來注意尤其是SMR方面相關的技術好謝謝,謝謝主委,謝謝主席\n657932\t660582\t好 謝謝神秀包委員 主委請回\n","txt":"謝謝主席 請陳主委好 有請陳主委\n主委早首先先跟主委這邊來討論一下關於我們河岸會這邊預算遭煽動的部分根據河岸會這邊給本席的資料河岸會遭通案刪減的部分有國內的差旅費20%那媒體政策及業務宣導費也是高達60%那其中本席比較關心是關於荷普教育本席想要請教關於如果差旅費遭刪減\n会不会影响到我们河安会的同仁到各地参与科展以及科普宣传是有影响的那如果会影响的话你们的规划跟你们有折衷的方法做法是什么我们就用网路或视讯等等方式来减少旅费支出那同仁去参与的部分呢如果没有旅费你们可以怎么做\n就只能用網路上的這些相關的我們盡量想辦法在現有預算之內來達成我們的目標其實我覺得說核安會的工作除了說確保台灣的核能安全之外社會也給予我們核安會很高的教育的期待那我們也希望說核安會可以提供給民眾更多正確的核能知識所以這邊我也要請教一下核安會關於你們今年科普活動的規劃\n在被這個隨意的煽動這些相當多的預算之後呢這很顯然好像就是刻意的要阻擋正確的核安知識的傳播那核安會這邊你們對今年科普活動你們的規劃是怎麼樣請我們的中衛組組長來\n報告委員今年我們一樣有兩場的自辦的原子能科普展有一場已經在這個上禮拜六禮拜天在國立科教館已經辦理完成大概參與的民眾有八千多人我想就誠如委員所講的核安會是非常重視原子能科普教育但是當然因為拆旅費的刪減多少總是會有影響當然我們只好就盡力的節省費用\n那第二場的科普展我們是規劃在下半年度在新北市辦理以上所以你們這兩就是今年只能辦兩場目前的規劃是這個樣子包括委員市就是我們自辦的科普展因為我們都是請同仁實際上到現場跟現場的民眾直接溝通所以我們會耗費我們比較多的人力以上\n你谢谢核安会这边很尽力的在我刚刚说的传达正确的这些相关的核安知识给民众我也希望你们可以再继续努力在你们有限的这些经费跟预算的状况之下还是要传递正确的这些核能相关的讯息那主委我再请教您之前有立委运用中研院的报告来表示说干事储存场还有空间所以根本不存在核废掉的后续处置问题是真的吗\n乾式儲存場目前我們是正在興建一些乾式儲存場我的意思是說我們按照標準的安全的核廢料處理高階的核廢料後續處置我們是先放乾式儲存場然後再來移到中期站儲存場最後必須移轉到最終處置設施是不是這樣子\n那請問核廢料可以一直放在乾式儲存場嗎到一定程度以後一定要做下一步處理那麼核廢料的儲存就是包含了在後期的話包含中期的暫存以及最終儲置那麼我們已經有找到最終儲置的場址了嗎\n還沒還沒對不對其實連美國現在也還沒有找到最終處置的場址那麼中期暫存以及最終處置的場址沒有選還沒有地方可以來設置的時候來興建的時候我們如何繼續使用核能如何繼續產生核廢料導致這樣子沒有辦法處理核廢料問題這是社會的共識沒有辦法處理核廢料我們要如何繼續使用核電\n主委您覺得目前我們高階核廢料是放在乾式儲存就是全世界都是這樣處理的目前這樣子處理但是我們最終的處置是不是還沒有辦法處理所以我們核廢料也不能一直只放在乾式儲存場\n全世界趨勢是這樣並不是把高階核廢料直接埋在地下將來大概不會往這條路走大概會比較可能會再處理把高階核廢料移出來因為裡面還有很多其他的有用的材料可以繼續使用將來的方法大概是這樣把高階核廢料移除出來然後再經過高階核廢料\n也經過各種高科技的處理這些處理方式現在還在研發之中譬如說用加速器把它撞擊之後變成低階核廢料或把高階核廢料放在Multi-Sole Reactor裡面讓它消除掉等等技術還在研發之中所以目前根據還沒有到最終要決定要怎麼處理的時候我們大概會跟世界大概相同方法來處理這方面的問題\n那在這邊我以主委您的專業我再次的跟您確認不是就是說我們的核廢料不能一直放在乾式儲存場是吧對所以我們也不能被斷章取義的這些訊息來誤導並不是有乾式儲存場我們就可以繼續發電繼續產出核廢料中期的暫存以及最終的處置選址才是我們是不是繼續使用核電的關鍵您覺得是不是\n最終廚師長遲早要有地方儲存這些核廢料\n是的 我們要找到這個儲存場最終的儲值再來呢 根據媒體的報導日本媒體報導說日本有民眾有高達31%的民眾認為應該要降低核電的佔比這個在目前的局勢這樣的事情是很不一樣的意見那也表示說核能的發展其實最重要的其實就是民意的趨勢那台灣跟日本都有民眾對減少核電有更多的表態\n所以說呢核能的發展除了民意基礎社會共識也要有能力來處理核廢料諸位您覺得這樣子的說法您是不是認同\n是的那既然我們現在最終的處置的場子沒有找到我們沒有辦法找到目前沒有辦法處理最末端那麼台灣其實就沒有本錢來繼續發展核電如果台灣的民眾對核電還有極高的疑慮我們也沒有持續發展核電的本錢主委您覺得呢我請陳署長代表回答一下好嗎好請回答\n報告委員 國內目前的核廢料 低介部分都在電廠裡面儲存那高介部分我們目前是走的是水池儲存 乾式儲存那將來要進行最終處置 那目前的狀況就是我們盡力來先做好乾式儲存的一個\n因為現在只能放在單市儲存將來會繼續來做最終處置所以經濟部才會去設專案辦公室來推這一塊\n好那再來我跟您諸葛請教這幾年關於SMR就是小型模組化反應爐討論度很高那英國在2022年投資的包含AMR的相關六項的核技術研究那義大利也近期表示會重啟核能那其中也再度的提到小型模組化反應爐但是根據2024世界核能產業現況報告裡面有提到\nSMR過度的炒作跟產業現實之間的差距持續的擴大而且有小型模組化反應爐的計畫持續的延遲或取消主委您認為目前國際間SMR的發展技術真的有一開始說的那麼好嗎目前國際間SMR的發展和安慧這邊是我們自己在研究還是有跟國外來攜手\n据统计全世界有参与SMR研究的企业或研究单位大概有90几家最后能胜出的只是少数几家多数在竞争过程中会被淘汰的\n因為其實在投入之間他們也發現說這個成本非常的昂貴所以致使很多計畫會延遲或取消那本席這邊要強調的是說關於SMR它其實這樣子的反應爐它一樣會核廢掉的問題\n如果我們沒有辦法處理核廢料那目前我們堆置在核電廠裡面的燃料棒移出來乾式儲存後我們沒有辦法做最終處理的話無論國際間如何吹捧SMR的好處但是所產生的核廢料一樣是沒有辦法處理我們還是沒有這樣的本錢來繼續發展核電\n那這個部分呢 我們就在這邊 我們不要再關於討論這個部分我是希望說 國際間的趨勢我們還是要掌握我們不管說我們自己本身的核電 我們發展到怎樣的地步我們跟國際間的合作 跟我們自己本身關於核電的這些技術都要持續的發展 持續的了解 持續的掌握\n是,我們跟國際像Idol International去年八月開始就有赴訪那中間也每三個月定期開一次會所以我們跟國際還有日本這個美國其他單位MIT都有合作赴訪的program在裡面隨時會follow這個進度國進最新核能技術的發展我們會明確來注意尤其是SMR方面相關的技術好謝謝,謝謝主委,謝謝主席\n好 謝謝神秀包委員 主委請回\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.994 --> 00:13.126\n謝謝主席請陳主委好有請陳主委\n\n00:19.943 --> 00:45.544\n主委早首先先跟主委這邊來討論一下關於我們河岸會這邊預算遭煽動的部分根據河岸會這邊給本席的資料河岸會遭通案刪減的部分有國內的差旅費20%那媒體政策及業務宣導費也是高達60%那其中本席比較關心是關於荷普教育本席想要請教關於如果差旅費遭刪減\n\n00:46.425 --> 01:12.524\n会不会影响到我们河安会的同仁到各地参与科展以及科普宣传是有影响的那如果会影响的话你们的规划跟你们有折衷的方法做法是什么我们就用网路或视讯等等方式来减少旅费支出那同仁去参与的部分呢如果没有旅费你们可以怎么做\n\n01:15.711 --> 01:41.584\n就只能用網路上的這些相關的我們盡量想辦法在現有預算之內來達成我們的目標其實我覺得說核安會的工作除了說確保台灣的核能安全之外社會也給予我們核安會很高的教育的期待那我們也希望說核安會可以提供給民眾更多正確的核能知識所以這邊我也要請教一下核安會關於你們今年科普活動的規劃\n\n01:42.785 --> 01:55.932\n在被這個隨意的煽動這些相當多的預算之後呢這很顯然好像就是刻意的要阻擋正確的核安知識的傳播那核安會這邊你們對今年科普活動你們的規劃是怎麼樣請我們的中衛組組長來\n\n02:00.414 --> 02:25.499\n報告委員今年我們一樣有兩場的自辦的原子能科普展有一場已經在這個上禮拜六禮拜天在國立科教館已經辦理完成大概參與的民眾有八千多人我想就誠如委員所講的核安會是非常重視原子能科普教育但是當然因為拆旅費的刪減多少總是會有影響當然我們只好就盡力的節省費用\n\n02:25.959 --> 02:49.808\n那第二場的科普展我們是規劃在下半年度在新北市辦理以上所以你們這兩就是今年只能辦兩場目前的規劃是這個樣子包括委員市就是我們自辦的科普展因為我們都是請同仁實際上到現場跟現場的民眾直接溝通所以我們會耗費我們比較多的人力以上\n\n02:50.208 --> 03:17.208\n你谢谢核安会这边很尽力的在我刚刚说的传达正确的这些相关的核安知识给民众我也希望你们可以再继续努力在你们有限的这些经费跟预算的状况之下还是要传递正确的这些核能相关的讯息那主委我再请教您之前有立委运用中研院的报告来表示说干事储存场还有空间所以根本不存在核废掉的后续处置问题是真的吗\n\n03:19.778 --> 03:43.818\n乾式儲存場目前我們是正在興建一些乾式儲存場我的意思是說我們按照標準的安全的核廢料處理高階的核廢料後續處置我們是先放乾式儲存場然後再來移到中期站儲存場最後必須移轉到最終處置設施是不是這樣子\n\n03:45.828 --> 04:08.624\n那請問核廢料可以一直放在乾式儲存場嗎到一定程度以後一定要做下一步處理那麼核廢料的儲存就是包含了在後期的話包含中期的暫存以及最終儲置那麼我們已經有找到最終儲置的場址了嗎\n\n04:12.696 --> 04:40.386\n還沒還沒對不對其實連美國現在也還沒有找到最終處置的場址那麼中期暫存以及最終處置的場址沒有選還沒有地方可以來設置的時候來興建的時候我們如何繼續使用核能如何繼續產生核廢料導致這樣子沒有辦法處理核廢料問題這是社會的共識沒有辦法處理核廢料我們要如何繼續使用核電\n\n04:41.286 --> 05:01.851\n主委您覺得目前我們高階核廢料是放在乾式儲存就是全世界都是這樣處理的目前這樣子處理但是我們最終的處置是不是還沒有辦法處理所以我們核廢料也不能一直只放在乾式儲存場\n\n05:04.409 --> 05:33.509\n全世界趨勢是這樣並不是把高階核廢料直接埋在地下將來大概不會往這條路走大概會比較可能會再處理把高階核廢料移出來因為裡面還有很多其他的有用的材料可以繼續使用將來的方法大概是這樣把高階核廢料移除出來然後再經過高階核廢料\n\n05:34.980 --> 06:02.540\n也經過各種高科技的處理這些處理方式現在還在研發之中譬如說用加速器把它撞擊之後變成低階核廢料或把高階核廢料放在Multi-SoleReactor裡面讓它消除掉等等技術還在研發之中所以目前根據還沒有到最終要決定要怎麼處理的時候我們大概會跟世界大概相同方法來處理這方面的問題\n\n06:03.393 --> 06:31.244\n那在這邊我以主委您的專業我再次的跟您確認不是就是說我們的核廢料不能一直放在乾式儲存場是吧對所以我們也不能被斷章取義的這些訊息來誤導並不是有乾式儲存場我們就可以繼續發電繼續產出核廢料中期的暫存以及最終的處置選址才是我們是不是繼續使用核電的關鍵您覺得是不是\n\n06:33.805 --> 06:35.086\n最終廚師長遲早要有地方儲存這些核廢料\n\n06:41.873 --> 06:47.858\n是的我們要找到這個儲存場最終的儲值再來呢根據媒體的報導日本媒體報導說日本有民眾有高達31%的民眾認為應該要降低核電的佔比這個在目前的局勢這樣的事情是很不一樣的意見那也表示說核能的發展其實最重要的其實就是民意的趨勢那台灣跟日本都有民眾對減少核電有更多的表態\n\n07:09.875 --> 07:19.403\n所以說呢核能的發展除了民意基礎社會共識也要有能力來處理核廢料諸位您覺得這樣子的說法您是不是認同\n\n07:21.953 --> 07:46.094\n是的那既然我們現在最終的處置的場子沒有找到我們沒有辦法找到目前沒有辦法處理最末端那麼台灣其實就沒有本錢來繼續發展核電如果台灣的民眾對核電還有極高的疑慮我們也沒有持續發展核電的本錢主委您覺得呢我請陳署長代表回答一下好嗎好請回答\n\n07:47.125 --> 08:07.890\n報告委員國內目前的核廢料低介部分都在電廠裡面儲存那高介部分我們目前是走的是水池儲存乾式儲存那將來要進行最終處置那目前的狀況就是我們盡力來先做好乾式儲存的一個\n\n08:08.490 --> 08:12.012\n因為現在只能放在單市儲存將來會繼續來做最終處置所以經濟部才會去設專案辦公室來推這一塊\n\n08:18.496 --> 08:39.968\n好那再來我跟您諸葛請教這幾年關於SMR就是小型模組化反應爐討論度很高那英國在2022年投資的包含AMR的相關六項的核技術研究那義大利也近期表示會重啟核能那其中也再度的提到小型模組化反應爐但是根據2024世界核能產業現況報告裡面有提到\n\n08:45.251 --> 08:52.798\nSMR過度的炒作跟產業現實之間的差距持續的擴大而且有小型模組化反應爐的計畫持續的延遲或取消主委您認為目前國際間SMR的發展技術真的有一開始說的那麼好嗎目前國際間SMR的發展和安慧這邊是我們自己在研究還是有跟國外來攜手\n\n09:10.781 --> 09:27.814\n据统计全世界有参与SMR研究的企业或研究单位大概有90几家最后能胜出的只是少数几家多数在竞争过程中会被淘汰的\n\n09:28.919 --> 09:38.486\n因為其實在投入之間他們也發現說這個成本非常的昂貴所以致使很多計畫會延遲或取消那本席這邊要強調的是說關於SMR它其實這樣子的反應爐它一樣會核廢掉的問題\n\n09:44.551 --> 09:47.373\n如果我們沒有辦法處理核廢料那目前我們堆置在核電廠裡面的燃料棒移出來乾式儲存後我們沒有辦法做最終處理的話無論國際間如何吹捧SMR的好處但是所產生的核廢料一樣是沒有辦法處理我們還是沒有這樣的本錢來繼續發展核電\n\n10:05.168 --> 10:27.936\n那這個部分呢我們就在這邊我們不要再關於討論這個部分我是希望說國際間的趨勢我們還是要掌握我們不管說我們自己本身的核電我們發展到怎樣的地步我們跟國際間的合作跟我們自己本身關於核電的這些技術都要持續的發展持續的了解持續的掌握\n\n10:29.884 --> 10:54.179\n是,我們跟國際像IdolInternational去年八月開始就有赴訪那中間也每三個月定期開一次會所以我們跟國際還有日本這個美國其他單位MIT都有合作赴訪的program在裡面隨時會follow這個進度國進最新核能技術的發展我們會明確來注意尤其是SMR方面相關的技術好謝謝,謝謝主委,謝謝主席\n\n10:57.932 --> 11:00.582\n好謝謝神秀包委員主委請回\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.994,"end":13.126,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":19.943,"end":45.544,"text":"主委早首先先跟主委這邊來討論一下關於我們河岸會這邊預算遭煽動的部分根據河岸會這邊給本席的資料河岸會遭通案刪減的部分有國內的差旅費20%那媒體政策及業務宣導費也是高達60%那其中本席比較關心是關於荷普教育本席想要請教關於如果差旅費遭刪減"},{"start":46.425,"end":72.524,"text":"会不会影响到我们河安会的同仁到各地参与科展以及科普宣传是有影响的那如果会影响的话你们的规划跟你们有折衷的方法做法是什么我们就用网路或视讯等等方式来减少旅费支出那同仁去参与的部分呢如果没有旅费你们可以怎么做"},{"start":75.711,"end":101.584,"text":"就只能用網路上的這些相關的我們盡量想辦法在現有預算之內來達成我們的目標其實我覺得說核安會的工作除了說確保台灣的核能安全之外社會也給予我們核安會很高的教育的期待那我們也希望說核安會可以提供給民眾更多正確的核能知識所以這邊我也要請教一下核安會關於你們今年科普活動的規劃"},{"start":102.785,"end":115.932,"text":"在被這個隨意的煽動這些相當多的預算之後呢這很顯然好像就是刻意的要阻擋正確的核安知識的傳播那核安會這邊你們對今年科普活動你們的規劃是怎麼樣請我們的中衛組組長來"},{"start":120.414,"end":145.499,"text":"報告委員今年我們一樣有兩場的自辦的原子能科普展有一場已經在這個上禮拜六禮拜天在國立科教館已經辦理完成大概參與的民眾有八千多人我想就誠如委員所講的核安會是非常重視原子能科普教育但是當然因為拆旅費的刪減多少總是會有影響當然我們只好就盡力的節省費用"},{"start":145.959,"end":169.808,"text":"那第二場的科普展我們是規劃在下半年度在新北市辦理以上所以你們這兩就是今年只能辦兩場目前的規劃是這個樣子包括委員市就是我們自辦的科普展因為我們都是請同仁實際上到現場跟現場的民眾直接溝通所以我們會耗費我們比較多的人力以上"},{"start":170.208,"end":197.208,"text":"你谢谢核安会这边很尽力的在我刚刚说的传达正确的这些相关的核安知识给民众我也希望你们可以再继续努力在你们有限的这些经费跟预算的状况之下还是要传递正确的这些核能相关的讯息那主委我再请教您之前有立委运用中研院的报告来表示说干事储存场还有空间所以根本不存在核废掉的后续处置问题是真的吗"},{"start":199.778,"end":223.818,"text":"乾式儲存場目前我們是正在興建一些乾式儲存場我的意思是說我們按照標準的安全的核廢料處理高階的核廢料後續處置我們是先放乾式儲存場然後再來移到中期站儲存場最後必須移轉到最終處置設施是不是這樣子"},{"start":225.828,"end":248.624,"text":"那請問核廢料可以一直放在乾式儲存場嗎到一定程度以後一定要做下一步處理那麼核廢料的儲存就是包含了在後期的話包含中期的暫存以及最終儲置那麼我們已經有找到最終儲置的場址了嗎"},{"start":252.696,"end":280.386,"text":"還沒還沒對不對其實連美國現在也還沒有找到最終處置的場址那麼中期暫存以及最終處置的場址沒有選還沒有地方可以來設置的時候來興建的時候我們如何繼續使用核能如何繼續產生核廢料導致這樣子沒有辦法處理核廢料問題這是社會的共識沒有辦法處理核廢料我們要如何繼續使用核電"},{"start":281.286,"end":301.851,"text":"主委您覺得目前我們高階核廢料是放在乾式儲存就是全世界都是這樣處理的目前這樣子處理但是我們最終的處置是不是還沒有辦法處理所以我們核廢料也不能一直只放在乾式儲存場"},{"start":304.409,"end":333.509,"text":"全世界趨勢是這樣並不是把高階核廢料直接埋在地下將來大概不會往這條路走大概會比較可能會再處理把高階核廢料移出來因為裡面還有很多其他的有用的材料可以繼續使用將來的方法大概是這樣把高階核廢料移除出來然後再經過高階核廢料"},{"start":334.98,"end":362.54,"text":"也經過各種高科技的處理這些處理方式現在還在研發之中譬如說用加速器把它撞擊之後變成低階核廢料或把高階核廢料放在Multi-Sole Reactor裡面讓它消除掉等等技術還在研發之中所以目前根據還沒有到最終要決定要怎麼處理的時候我們大概會跟世界大概相同方法來處理這方面的問題"},{"start":363.393,"end":391.244,"text":"那在這邊我以主委您的專業我再次的跟您確認不是就是說我們的核廢料不能一直放在乾式儲存場是吧對所以我們也不能被斷章取義的這些訊息來誤導並不是有乾式儲存場我們就可以繼續發電繼續產出核廢料中期的暫存以及最終的處置選址才是我們是不是繼續使用核電的關鍵您覺得是不是"},{"start":393.805,"end":395.086,"text":"最終廚師長遲早要有地方儲存這些核廢料"},{"start":401.873,"end":407.858,"text":"是的 我們要找到這個儲存場最終的儲值再來呢 根據媒體的報導日本媒體報導說日本有民眾有高達31%的民眾認為應該要降低核電的佔比這個在目前的局勢這樣的事情是很不一樣的意見那也表示說核能的發展其實最重要的其實就是民意的趨勢那台灣跟日本都有民眾對減少核電有更多的表態"},{"start":429.875,"end":439.403,"text":"所以說呢核能的發展除了民意基礎社會共識也要有能力來處理核廢料諸位您覺得這樣子的說法您是不是認同"},{"start":441.953,"end":466.094,"text":"是的那既然我們現在最終的處置的場子沒有找到我們沒有辦法找到目前沒有辦法處理最末端那麼台灣其實就沒有本錢來繼續發展核電如果台灣的民眾對核電還有極高的疑慮我們也沒有持續發展核電的本錢主委您覺得呢我請陳署長代表回答一下好嗎好請回答"},{"start":467.125,"end":487.89,"text":"報告委員 國內目前的核廢料 低介部分都在電廠裡面儲存那高介部分我們目前是走的是水池儲存 乾式儲存那將來要進行最終處置 那目前的狀況就是我們盡力來先做好乾式儲存的一個"},{"start":488.49,"end":492.012,"text":"因為現在只能放在單市儲存將來會繼續來做最終處置所以經濟部才會去設專案辦公室來推這一塊"},{"start":498.496,"end":519.968,"text":"好那再來我跟您諸葛請教這幾年關於SMR就是小型模組化反應爐討論度很高那英國在2022年投資的包含AMR的相關六項的核技術研究那義大利也近期表示會重啟核能那其中也再度的提到小型模組化反應爐但是根據2024世界核能產業現況報告裡面有提到"},{"start":525.251,"end":532.798,"text":"SMR過度的炒作跟產業現實之間的差距持續的擴大而且有小型模組化反應爐的計畫持續的延遲或取消主委您認為目前國際間SMR的發展技術真的有一開始說的那麼好嗎目前國際間SMR的發展和安慧這邊是我們自己在研究還是有跟國外來攜手"},{"start":550.781,"end":567.814,"text":"据统计全世界有参与SMR研究的企业或研究单位大概有90几家最后能胜出的只是少数几家多数在竞争过程中会被淘汰的"},{"start":568.919,"end":578.486,"text":"因為其實在投入之間他們也發現說這個成本非常的昂貴所以致使很多計畫會延遲或取消那本席這邊要強調的是說關於SMR它其實這樣子的反應爐它一樣會核廢掉的問題"},{"start":584.551,"end":587.373,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法處理核廢料那目前我們堆置在核電廠裡面的燃料棒移出來乾式儲存後我們沒有辦法做最終處理的話無論國際間如何吹捧SMR的好處但是所產生的核廢料一樣是沒有辦法處理我們還是沒有這樣的本錢來繼續發展核電"},{"start":605.168,"end":627.936,"text":"那這個部分呢 我們就在這邊 我們不要再關於討論這個部分我是希望說 國際間的趨勢我們還是要掌握我們不管說我們自己本身的核電 我們發展到怎樣的地步我們跟國際間的合作 跟我們自己本身關於核電的這些技術都要持續的發展 持續的了解 持續的掌握"},{"start":629.884,"end":654.179,"text":"是,我們跟國際像Idol International去年八月開始就有赴訪那中間也每三個月定期開一次會所以我們跟國際還有日本這個美國其他單位MIT都有合作赴訪的program在裡面隨時會follow這個進度國進最新核能技術的發展我們會明確來注意尤其是SMR方面相關的技術好謝謝,謝謝主委,謝謝主席"},{"start":657.932,"end":660.582,"text":"好 謝謝神秀包委員 主委請回"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":138,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（9時34分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委早。首先跟主委討論一下關於我們核安會預算遭刪凍的部分。根據核安會給本席的資料，核安會遭通案刪減的部分，有國內的差旅費20%；媒體政策及業務宣導費是高達60%，而其中本席比較關心的是關於科普教育。本席想要請教，如果差旅費遭刪減，會不會影響到我們核安會的同仁到各地參與科展以及科普宣傳？"],["陳主任委員明真：是有影響的。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果會影響，你們的規劃或你們有無折衷的方法？作法是什麼？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們用網路或視訊等等方式減少旅費支出。"],["陳委員秀寳：同仁去參與的部分呢？如果沒有旅費，你們可以怎麼做？就只能用網路上這些相關的……"],["陳主任委員明真：對，我們儘量想辦法，在現有預算之內來達成我們的目標。"],["陳委員秀寳：我覺得核安會的工作，除了確保臺灣的核能安全之外，其實社會也給予核安會很高的教育期待，我們也希望核安會可以提供給民眾更多正確的核能知識。所以我也要請教核安會，在被隨意地刪凍相當多的預算之後，關於你們今年科普活動的規劃，這很顯然就好像是刻意地要阻擋正確核安知識的傳播。核安會對於今年科普活動的規劃是怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員明真：請我們的綜規組組長。"],["李組長綺思：報告委員，今年我們一樣有兩場自辦的原子能科普展，有一場已經在上禮拜六、禮拜天在國立科教館辦理完成，參與的民眾有八千多人。我想誠如委員所講的，核安會是非常重視原子能科普教育，當然因為差旅費的刪減多少總是會有影響，我們只好就盡力地節省費用。第二場的科普展，我們是規劃下半年度在新北市辦理，以上。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以你們今年只能辦兩場，目前的規劃是這個樣子？"],["李組長綺思：是，就是我們自辦的科普展，因為我們都是請同仁實際上到現場跟現場的民眾直接溝通，所以會耗費我們比較多的人力，以上。"],["陳委員秀寳：也謝謝核安會很盡力地、如同我剛剛說的──傳達正確相關的核安知識給民眾，我也希望你們可以再繼續努力，在你們有限經費跟預算的狀況之下，還是要傳遞這些正確核能相關的訊息。主委，我再請教您，之前有立委運用中研院的報告表示乾式貯存場還有空間，所以根本不存在核廢料的後續處置問題，這是真的嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：目前我們是正在興建一些乾式貯存場。"],["陳委員秀寳：我的意思是說，我們按照標準的、安全的核廢料處理，高階的核廢料後續處置是先放到乾式貯存場，然後再來移到中期暫存場，最後必須移轉到最終處置設施，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主任委員明真：是這樣子規劃。"],["陳委員秀寳：請問核廢料可以一直放在乾式貯存場嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：到一定程度以後，一定要做下一步處理。"],["陳委員秀寳：一定要做下一步的處理，因此核廢料的處置，在後期的話，包含中期的暫存以及最終處置，那麼我們已經有找到最終處置的場址了嗎？"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，還沒。"],["陳委員秀寳：還沒，對不對？其實連美國現在也還沒有找到最終處置的場址，對於中期暫存以及最終處置的場址，還沒有地方可以來設置、來興建的時候，我們如何繼續使用核能？如何繼續產生核廢料？沒有辦法處理核廢料問題，這是社會的共識，沒有辦法處理核廢料，我們要如何繼續使用核電？主委，就您覺得。"],["陳主任委員明真：目前我們高階核廢料是放在乾式貯存，全世界都是這樣這樣處理的。"],["陳委員秀寳：目前這樣子處理，但是我們最終的處置，是不是還沒有辦法處理？"],["陳主任委員明真：最終處置還沒有決定要怎麼做。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我們核廢料也不能一直只放在乾式貯存場？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。因為全世界趨勢是這樣子，並不是把高階核廢料直接埋在地下，將來大概不會往這條路走，大概比較可能會經過再處理，把高階核廢料移出來，因為裡面還有很多其他有用的材料可以繼續使用。將來的方法大概是這樣，把高階核廢料移除出來，然後也經過各種高科技的處理，這些處理方式現在還在研發之中，譬如說用加速器把它撞擊之後變成低階核廢料，或把高階核廢料放在molten salt reactor讓它消除掉等等，技術還在研發之中，所以目前各國還沒有到最終決定要怎麼處理的時候，我們大概會跟世界用相同方法來處理這方面的問題。"],["陳委員秀寳：以主委您的專業，我再次跟您確認，我們的核廢料不能一直放在乾式貯存場，是吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：對，不能永遠放。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我們也不能被這些斷章取義的訊息誤導，並不是有乾式貯存場，我們就可以繼續發電、繼續產出核廢料，中期的暫存以及最終的處置選址才是我們要不要繼續使用核電的關鍵，您覺得是不是？"],["陳主任委員明真：關於最終處置場，遲早要有地方貯存這些核廢料，是的，我們要找到這個貯存場，還是要找到。"],["陳委員秀寳：再來，根據日本媒體的報導，日本有高達31%的民眾認為應該要降低核電的占比，在目前的局勢，這樣的聲音是很不一樣的意見，也表示核能的發展其實最重要的就是民意的趨勢，臺灣跟日本都有民眾對於減少核電有更多的表態，所以核能的發展，除了民意基礎、社會共識，也要有能力來處理核廢料。主委，您覺得這樣子的說法，您是不是認同？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的，我想請……"],["陳委員秀寳：既然我們現在最終處置的場址沒有找到，我們沒有辦法找到，所以目前沒有辦法處理最末端，那麼臺灣其實就沒有本錢來繼續發展核電，如果臺灣的民眾對核電還有極高的疑慮，我們也沒有持續發展核電的本錢，主委，您覺得呢？"],["陳主任委員明真：這部分我請陳組長代我回答，好嗎？"],["陳委員秀寳：請回答。"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，國內目前核廢料低階部分都貯存在電廠裡，高階部分目前以水池貯存及乾式貯存，將來要進行最終處置，目前的狀況是我們盡力先做好乾式貯存的工作……"],["陳委員秀寳：因為現在只能放在乾式貯存。"],["陳組長文泉：將來會接續做最終處置，所以經濟部才會設置專案辦公室來推動這一塊。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。再來，跟主委請教，這幾年關於SMR（小型模組化反應爐）的討論度很高，英國在2022年投資AMR相關六項的核能技術研究，義大利近期也表示會重啟核能，其中也再度提到小型模組化反應爐，但是根據2024年世界核能產業現況報告裡有提到SMR過度的炒作，跟產業現實之間的差距持續擴大，而且有小型模組化反應爐的計畫持續地延遲或取消。您認為目前國際間有關SMR的發展技術，真的有一開始說得那麼好嗎？目前國際間SMR的發展，核安會自己有在研究？還是有跟國外相關單位攜手合作？"],["陳主任委員明真：根據統計全世界有參與SMR研究的企業或研究單位大概有九十幾家，最後能勝出的只有少數幾家，多數的在這競爭過程中會被淘汰。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為在投入時，他們發現研究成本非常昂貴，致使很多計畫會延遲或取消。本席要強調的是，像SMR這樣子的反應爐一樣會產生核廢料的問題，如果我們沒有辦法處理核廢料，沒有辦法把目前堆置在核電廠裡的燃料棒移至乾式貯存後做最終處理的話，無論國際間如何吹捧SMR的好處，所產生的核廢料一樣是沒有辦法處理，我們還是沒有這樣的本錢來繼續發展核電，這個部分就先不再作討論。我希望我們還是要掌握國際間的趨勢，不管我們自己本身核電技術的發展到怎樣的地步，跟國際間的合作都要持續地發展、持續地了解、持續地掌握。"],["高院長梓木：我們跟國際相關單位像Idaho National Lab在去年8月已開始有互訪，這期間每三個月定期召開一次會。另外我們也跟日本、美國MIT等其他相關國際單位都有合作互訪的program在裡面，隨時會follow國際最新核能技術發展的進度，我們會密切注意，尤其是SMR方面相關的技術。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，主委請回。","接下來請劉書彬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}}