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00:00:14,490\n謝謝主席我們有請主委好有請主委\n\n2\n00:00:22,062 --> 00:00:42,295\n主委好上個禮拜五啊其實院會通過了一個公投案就是要求說您是否同意在這個河山呢經過整體安全評估之後呢恢復繼續運轉那最後呢在這個藍白的聯手之下呢其實已經進負二讀囉要交付協商那在整個關係文案你們可以看到他其實有去講這個\n\n3\n00:00:43,536 --> 00:01:00,873\n在整體安全評估後聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全我想請教主委就您的專業我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程報告委員我們現在核電廠發指導是40年\n\n4\n00:01:07,661 --> 00:01:32,924\n40年前當初核發執照的時候是根據使用40年的標準來核發的但是我們現在如果要繼續的話現在過去這個40年之後呢當初是沒有評估所以如果要延長使用期限的話是需要評估的那我現在的問題是說我們這個安全的一個評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程是的我們有非常嚴謹的一個流程\n\n5\n00:01:34,845 --> 00:01:47,210\n但我記得我上次問您說這個時間要花多久好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準對不對沒有辦法說得準是要花時間的要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛對不對現在都在一個不確定的狀況我自己也會覺得這個問題這個公投的題目\n\n6\n00:01:51,860 --> 00:02:14,877\n這種條件式問法很像說如果我今天中樂透我就要去環遊世界問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透嘛也不可能也不保證我一定會中嘛所以這樣子的我們這樣子的條件式的公投很像在許一個願望但是真的會實現嗎因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說的算嘛它就是有個禁令的流程跟國際的標準它必須要經過非常非常多的時間\n\n7\n00:02:16,038 --> 00:02:25,953\n才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛對不對有可能的嘛對不對\n\n8\n00:02:27,679 --> 00:02:54,831\n公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利不是做白日夢的舞台所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗還有核廢料最終主持長的一個實質問題那我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想那同時我也比較了一下各國針對於核電公投的一些題目\n\n9\n00:02:56,383 --> 00:03:08,359\n那像這個是左邊是瑞士啦或是義大利啊其實他們都是在講說針對於這個能源的一個法案大家的一個想法到底是什麼其實沒有去涉及到核電廠是否研議這麼專業的一個問題喔所以\n\n10\n00:03:12,424 --> 00:03:36,119\n在我們現在其實河山公投現在已經交付協商可是大家不要忘記我們3月份其實也針對當時這個河管法的說法已經送出委員會了那接下來藍白要做的到底是這個研議的討論呢要以公投為主還是以立法院的程序為主這麼混亂的討論方式沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論\n\n11\n00:03:41,582 --> 00:04:08,427\n那如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力那誰要來負責人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全我覺得這是非常危險的也是非常不負責任的甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕我們科學檢驗讓科學檢驗承受一個壓力這都是有可能的所以我認為這是一個非常不負責任的態度\n\n12\n00:04:10,171 --> 00:04:23,269\n那接下來我也想要請教就是有關於這個火災的通報時間我其實後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情你們場內有接貨通知然後後來好像是屏東的消防局也有跟河山長確認情況\n\n13\n00:04:25,891 --> 00:04:51,200\n那時間點其實總共大概發生是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了這個火勢但是呢這整個的問題在於是說火勢都撲滅了當時因為我們所有的行政主管都在開會所以我們到12點半才通報了我們各機關可是現場已經濃煙嘛所以居民都不知道發生了什麼事情就是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件\n\n14\n00:04:52,446 --> 00:05:19,832\n所以我想問雖然合規但是通報時間是否太晚因為這造成你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情外部完全不了解那我看一下現在動力用的核子反應器設施應立即通報的形式及通報時限我們現在其實是有兩種就是說一小時內跟兩小時內但是這是2004年訂的已經過了20年了我們有沒有修正的必要呢我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢\n\n15\n00:05:21,034 --> 00:05:24,027\n主委您的想法這點請高組長回答好不好剛才說明了\n\n16\n00:05:25,854 --> 00:05:53,285\n那委員提供這個表格是針對安全部分有影響的部分那當天是我們在11點35分有跟河山廠做聯繫那剛才所提出來那個書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來那在整個過程中會裡面的駐場視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認對我現在的問題是說在2004年訂的這樣子的規定世界上還是都沒有做任何的修正嗎這個通報的方式\n\n17\n00:05:55,810 --> 00:06:18,670\n呃基本上都是按照這個參考國外定所以我們有實施再修正嗎因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年到現在是沒有修正的這過了20年都還發生了福島事件我們有做任何的修正嗎福島事件是另外一個層次是京島核子事故這個是沒有構成我的意思是說在這個事件之後我們全世界有沒有針對這個通報實現有相關的修正有嗎\n\n18\n00:06:23,719 --> 00:06:45,658\n目前根據我所了解是沒有我們可以再確認請你們再確認好不好那再來就是說大家也有在講到就是說我們現在的這些公告內容其實並沒有像並沒有非常非常的清楚那我自己找了一下日本的一個版本它其實是把事件發生的時間時時的更新各設施的狀況可是相對於我們的\n\n19\n00:06:46,719 --> 00:07:00,626\n內容其實就非常的簡單那我們是不是有可能參考日本的這個標準呢跟這個格式呢再去把我們的公告裡面寫得更清楚因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的一個擔心的這部分是有可能的嗎\n\n20\n00:07:03,183 --> 00:07:21,075\n跟委員說明,事實上我們都有看日本發布訊息事實上我們大部分都有比對過事實上要提供的資訊都一樣,就是時間、地點可是他這邊有講到,像他左下角這邊是有講到各施施的狀況所以我們會針對說兩部機組的狀況去...就是針對機組的狀況沒有影響,我們就直接這樣講\n\n21\n00:07:30,387 --> 00:07:51,602\n好那沒關係那我想就是在事件發生時間以及他現在更新的時間點上面我們是不是可以在旁邊做個加注呢這部分我尊重你們的專業啦只是我覺得他這樣子的呈現方式可能是大家比較一目了然的方式啦比較清楚好那再來下一個問題就是說因為我們其實都有做很多的兵推情境喔那我們現在是有火災的版本嗎我們現在有嗎\n\n22\n00:07:58,010 --> 00:08:21,623\n我們現在有是不是有那是這次剛好沒有因為我看這幾年的演習幾乎都沒有火災跟委員報告有我們每年火災基本上都是閉演的項目閉演習的項目是嗎所以這個是另外就是針對一些特殊的情境是嗎可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了每一個是的OK好那謝謝那再來最後一個問題喔\n\n23\n00:08:23,482 --> 00:08:36,518\n是說去年的時候我有質詢是說因為其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常非常重要嘛那我也非常感謝就是和安會呢其實就找了許多的兒少團體一起來做討論看如何把這個文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂\n\n24\n00:08:40,783 --> 00:09:04,398\n那其實我從這些團體的回饋也都覺得他們對於核安會的現在的做法也都保持一個肯定那我現在就想要了解在接下來的進度就是輻射安全校安包目前我知道你們已經要選定了幾個國中北中南的幾個國中小的老師一起來研討這個校安包要怎麼做那我想問一下我們有沒有一個預定的時程呢\n\n25\n00:09:07,359 --> 00:09:29,119\n跟委員報告這個因為其實針對這個國中小的這個教案其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的這個學校在做溝通那我們後續原則上還是會參考上次跟這個這個一些學者專家提供的這些意見那我們目前因為\n\n26\n00:09:30,020 --> 00:09:53,612\n各地方政府也有在推啦所以事實上我們針對這一塊原則上是在協助地方政府用他們的比較接地氣的方式因為事實上每個區域他針對的這一些他有他的特殊的風情或者學校是不一樣所以我們是目前的做法是配合他們來調整來修正來協助他們做這一塊\n\n27\n00:09:54,375 --> 00:10:09,767\n所以我們目前因為我聽到的說法是說你們現在是跟基隆屏東還有新北的地方政府一起合作嘛等到我輻射交案包的時候會再請專家學者來給意見嗎但是你現在我現在就是在問什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段可以請專家學者來給意見啊\n\n28\n00:10:11,225 --> 00:10:33,217\n目前我們倒是沒有把這個因為我們還要跟地方政府討論出來什麼樣所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定啟程可是沒有訂定一個啟程的話大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們工作室下我們會在因為每年都會針對這個項目會做一個檢討其實我們會來把這個我們會依照委員的建議我們把它拉到\n\n29\n00:10:33,317 --> 00:10:52,135\n對但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛那這樣子好不好你可以跟地方政府討論一下預估的一個時間這樣子我們才可以知道說我們是不是在今年可以完成這件事情那這個詳細的時如果你們討論完這個時間大概什麼時候可以給我呢大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論好我們看看我們是不是\n\n30\n00:10:54,588 --> 00:11:06,297\n多久的時間可以討論我們盡快我們只是初步討論而已啊討論一個時間點對啊那我總是要追你的進度嘛那你總是要勾個時間吧是好好好謝謝啊謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10508\t14490\t謝謝主席 我們有請主委好 有請主委\n22062\t42295\t主委好 上個禮拜五啊 其實院會通過了一個公投案就是要求說您是否同意在這個河山呢經過整體安全評估之後呢 恢復繼續運轉那最後呢 在這個藍白的聯手之下呢其實已經進負二讀囉 要交付協商那在整個關係文案你們可以看到 他其實有去講這個\n43536\t60873\t在整體安全評估後聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全我想請教主委就您的專業我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程報告委員我們現在核電廠發指導是40年\n67661\t92924\t40年前當初核發執照的時候是根據使用40年的標準來核發的但是我們現在如果要繼續的話現在過去這個40年之後呢當初是沒有評估所以如果要延長使用期限的話是需要評估的那我現在的問題是說我們這個安全的一個評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程是的我們有非常嚴謹的一個流程\n94845\t107210\t但我記得我上次問您說這個時間要花多久好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準對不對沒有辦法說得準是要花時間的要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛對不對現在都在一個不確定的狀況我自己也會覺得這個問題這個公投的題目\n111860\t134877\t這種條件式問法很像說如果我今天中樂透我就要去環遊世界問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透嘛也不可能也不保證我一定會中嘛所以這樣子的我們這樣子的條件式的公投很像在許一個願望但是真的會實現嗎因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說的算嘛它就是有個禁令的流程跟國際的標準它必須要經過非常非常多的時間\n136038\t145953\t才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛對不對有可能的嘛對不對\n147679\t174831\t公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利不是做白日夢的舞台所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗還有核廢料最終主持長的一個實質問題那我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想那同時我也比較了一下各國針對於核電公投的一些題目\n176383\t188359\t那像這個是左邊是瑞士啦或是義大利啊其實他們都是在講說針對於這個能源的一個法案大家的一個想法到底是什麼其實沒有去涉及到核電廠是否研議這麼專業的一個問題喔所以\n192424\t216119\t在我們現在其實河山公投現在已經交付協商可是大家不要忘記我們3月份其實也針對當時這個河管法的說法已經送出委員會了那接下來藍白要做的到底是這個研議的討論呢要以公投為主還是以立法院的程序為主這麼混亂的討論方式沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論\n221582\t248427\t那如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力那誰要來負責人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全我覺得這是非常危險的也是非常不負責任的甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕我們科學檢驗讓科學檢驗承受一個壓力這都是有可能的所以我認為這是一個非常不負責任的態度\n250171\t263269\t那接下來我也想要請教就是有關於這個火災的通報時間我其實後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情你們場內有接貨通知然後後來好像是屏東的消防局也有跟河山長確認情況\n265891\t291200\t那時間點其實總共大概發生是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了這個火勢但是呢這整個的問題在於是說火勢都撲滅了當時因為我們所有的行政主管都在開會所以我們到12點半才通報了我們各機關可是現場已經濃煙嘛所以居民都不知道發生了什麼事情就是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件\n292446\t319832\t所以我想問雖然合規但是通報時間是否太晚因為這造成你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情外部完全不了解那我看一下現在動力用的核子反應器設施應立即通報的形式及通報時限我們現在其實是有兩種就是說一小時內跟兩小時內但是這是2004年訂的已經過了20年了我們有沒有修正的必要呢我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢\n321034\t324027\t主委您的想法這點請高組長回答好不好剛才說明了\n325854\t353285\t那委員提供這個表格是針對安全部分有影響的部分那當天是我們在11點35分有跟河山廠做聯繫那剛才所提出來那個書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來那在整個過程中會裡面的駐場視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認對我現在的問題是說在2004年訂的這樣子的規定世界上還是都沒有做任何的修正嗎這個通報的方式\n355810\t378670\t呃 基本上都是按照這個參考國外定所以我們有實施再修正嗎因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年到現在是沒有修正的這過了20年都還發生了福島事件我們有做任何的修正嗎福島事件是另外一個層次是京島核子事故這個是沒有構成我的意思是說在這個事件之後我們全世界有沒有針對這個通報實現有相關的修正有嗎\n383719\t405658\t目前根據我所了解是沒有我們可以再確認請你們再確認好不好那再來就是說大家也有在講到就是說我們現在的這些公告內容其實並沒有像並沒有非常非常的清楚那我自己找了一下日本的一個版本它其實是把事件發生的時間時時的更新各設施的狀況可是相對於我們的\n406719\t420626\t內容其實就非常的簡單那我們是不是有可能參考日本的這個標準呢跟這個格式呢再去把我們的公告裡面寫得更清楚因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的一個擔心的這部分是有可能的嗎\n423183\t441075\t跟委員說明,事實上我們都有看日本發布訊息事實上我們大部分都有比對過事實上要提供的資訊都一樣,就是時間、地點可是他這邊有講到,像他左下角這邊是有講到各施施的狀況所以我們會針對說兩部機組的狀況去...就是針對機組的狀況沒有影響,我們就直接這樣講\n450387\t471602\t好那沒關係那我想就是在事件發生時間以及他現在更新的時間點上面我們是不是可以在旁邊做個加注呢這部分我尊重你們的專業啦只是我覺得他這樣子的呈現方式可能是大家比較一目了然的方式啦比較清楚好那再來下一個問題就是說因為我們其實都有做很多的兵推情境喔那我們現在是有火災的版本嗎我們現在有嗎\n478010\t501623\t我們現在有是不是有那是這次剛好沒有因為我看這幾年的演習幾乎都沒有火災跟委員報告有我們每年火災基本上都是閉演的項目閉演習的項目是嗎所以這個是另外就是針對一些特殊的情境是嗎可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了每一個是的OK好那謝謝那再來最後一個問題喔\n503482\t516518\t是說去年的時候我有質詢是說因為其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常非常重要嘛那我也非常感謝就是和安會呢其實就找了許多的兒少團體一起來做討論看如何把這個文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂\n520783\t544398\t那其實我從這些團體的回饋也都覺得他們對於核安會的現在的做法也都保持一個肯定那我現在就想要了解在接下來的進度就是輻射安全校安包目前我知道你們已經要選定了幾個國中北中南的幾個國中小的老師一起來研討這個校安包要怎麼做那我想問一下我們有沒有一個預定的時程呢\n547359\t569119\t跟委員報告這個因為其實針對這個國中小的這個教案其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的這個學校在做溝通那我們後續原則上還是會參考上次跟這個這個一些學者專家提供的這些意見那我們目前因為\n570020\t593612\t各地方政府也有在推啦所以事實上我們針對這一塊原則上是在協助地方政府用他們的比較接地氣的方式因為事實上每個區域他針對的這一些他有他的特殊的風情或者學校是不一樣所以我們是目前的做法是配合他們來調整來修正來協助他們做這一塊\n594375\t609767\t所以我們目前因為我聽到的說法是說你們現在是跟基隆屏東還有新北的地方政府一起合作嘛等到我輻射交案包的時候會再請專家學者來給意見嗎但是你現在我現在就是在問什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段可以請專家學者來給意見啊\n611225\t633217\t目前我們倒是沒有把這個因為我們還要跟地方政府討論出來什麼樣所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定啟程可是沒有訂定一個啟程的話大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們工作室下我們會在因為每年都會針對這個項目會做一個檢討其實我們會來把這個我們會依照委員的建議我們把它拉到\n633317\t652135\t對 但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛那這樣子好不好你可以跟地方政府討論一下預估的一個時間這樣子我們才可以知道說我們是不是在今年可以完成這件事情那這個詳細的時如果你們討論完這個時間大概什麼時候可以給我呢大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論好 我們看看我們是不是\n654588\t666297\t多久的時間可以討論我們盡快我們只是初步討論而已啊討論一個時間點對啊那我總是要追你的進度嘛那你總是要勾個時間吧是好好好謝謝啊謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們有請主委好 有請主委\n主委好 上個禮拜五啊 其實院會通過了一個公投案就是要求說您是否同意在這個河山呢經過整體安全評估之後呢 恢復繼續運轉那最後呢 在這個藍白的聯手之下呢其實已經進負二讀囉 要交付協商那在整個關係文案你們可以看到 他其實有去講這個\n在整體安全評估後聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全我想請教主委就您的專業我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程報告委員我們現在核電廠發指導是40年\n40年前當初核發執照的時候是根據使用40年的標準來核發的但是我們現在如果要繼續的話現在過去這個40年之後呢當初是沒有評估所以如果要延長使用期限的話是需要評估的那我現在的問題是說我們這個安全的一個評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程是的我們有非常嚴謹的一個流程\n但我記得我上次問您說這個時間要花多久好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準對不對沒有辦法說得準是要花時間的要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛對不對現在都在一個不確定的狀況我自己也會覺得這個問題這個公投的題目\n這種條件式問法很像說如果我今天中樂透我就要去環遊世界問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透嘛也不可能也不保證我一定會中嘛所以這樣子的我們這樣子的條件式的公投很像在許一個願望但是真的會實現嗎因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說的算嘛它就是有個禁令的流程跟國際的標準它必須要經過非常非常多的時間\n才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛對不對有可能的嘛對不對\n公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利不是做白日夢的舞台所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗還有核廢料最終主持長的一個實質問題那我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想那同時我也比較了一下各國針對於核電公投的一些題目\n那像這個是左邊是瑞士啦或是義大利啊其實他們都是在講說針對於這個能源的一個法案大家的一個想法到底是什麼其實沒有去涉及到核電廠是否研議這麼專業的一個問題喔所以\n在我們現在其實河山公投現在已經交付協商可是大家不要忘記我們3月份其實也針對當時這個河管法的說法已經送出委員會了那接下來藍白要做的到底是這個研議的討論呢要以公投為主還是以立法院的程序為主這麼混亂的討論方式沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論\n那如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力那誰要來負責人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全我覺得這是非常危險的也是非常不負責任的甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕我們科學檢驗讓科學檢驗承受一個壓力這都是有可能的所以我認為這是一個非常不負責任的態度\n那接下來我也想要請教就是有關於這個火災的通報時間我其實後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情你們場內有接貨通知然後後來好像是屏東的消防局也有跟河山長確認情況\n那時間點其實總共大概發生是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了這個火勢但是呢這整個的問題在於是說火勢都撲滅了當時因為我們所有的行政主管都在開會所以我們到12點半才通報了我們各機關可是現場已經濃煙嘛所以居民都不知道發生了什麼事情就是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件\n所以我想問雖然合規但是通報時間是否太晚因為這造成你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情外部完全不了解那我看一下現在動力用的核子反應器設施應立即通報的形式及通報時限我們現在其實是有兩種就是說一小時內跟兩小時內但是這是2004年訂的已經過了20年了我們有沒有修正的必要呢我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢\n主委您的想法這點請高組長回答好不好剛才說明了\n那委員提供這個表格是針對安全部分有影響的部分那當天是我們在11點35分有跟河山廠做聯繫那剛才所提出來那個書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來那在整個過程中會裡面的駐場視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認對我現在的問題是說在2004年訂的這樣子的規定世界上還是都沒有做任何的修正嗎這個通報的方式\n呃 基本上都是按照這個參考國外定所以我們有實施再修正嗎因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年到現在是沒有修正的這過了20年都還發生了福島事件我們有做任何的修正嗎福島事件是另外一個層次是京島核子事故這個是沒有構成我的意思是說在這個事件之後我們全世界有沒有針對這個通報實現有相關的修正有嗎\n目前根據我所了解是沒有我們可以再確認請你們再確認好不好那再來就是說大家也有在講到就是說我們現在的這些公告內容其實並沒有像並沒有非常非常的清楚那我自己找了一下日本的一個版本它其實是把事件發生的時間時時的更新各設施的狀況可是相對於我們的\n內容其實就非常的簡單那我們是不是有可能參考日本的這個標準呢跟這個格式呢再去把我們的公告裡面寫得更清楚因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的一個擔心的這部分是有可能的嗎\n跟委員說明,事實上我們都有看日本發布訊息事實上我們大部分都有比對過事實上要提供的資訊都一樣,就是時間、地點可是他這邊有講到,像他左下角這邊是有講到各施施的狀況所以我們會針對說兩部機組的狀況去...就是針對機組的狀況沒有影響,我們就直接這樣講\n好那沒關係那我想就是在事件發生時間以及他現在更新的時間點上面我們是不是可以在旁邊做個加注呢這部分我尊重你們的專業啦只是我覺得他這樣子的呈現方式可能是大家比較一目了然的方式啦比較清楚好那再來下一個問題就是說因為我們其實都有做很多的兵推情境喔那我們現在是有火災的版本嗎我們現在有嗎\n我們現在有是不是有那是這次剛好沒有因為我看這幾年的演習幾乎都沒有火災跟委員報告有我們每年火災基本上都是閉演的項目閉演習的項目是嗎所以這個是另外就是針對一些特殊的情境是嗎可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了每一個是的OK好那謝謝那再來最後一個問題喔\n是說去年的時候我有質詢是說因為其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常非常重要嘛那我也非常感謝就是和安會呢其實就找了許多的兒少團體一起來做討論看如何把這個文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂\n那其實我從這些團體的回饋也都覺得他們對於核安會的現在的做法也都保持一個肯定那我現在就想要了解在接下來的進度就是輻射安全校安包目前我知道你們已經要選定了幾個國中北中南的幾個國中小的老師一起來研討這個校安包要怎麼做那我想問一下我們有沒有一個預定的時程呢\n跟委員報告這個因為其實針對這個國中小的這個教案其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的這個學校在做溝通那我們後續原則上還是會參考上次跟這個這個一些學者專家提供的這些意見那我們目前因為\n各地方政府也有在推啦所以事實上我們針對這一塊原則上是在協助地方政府用他們的比較接地氣的方式因為事實上每個區域他針對的這一些他有他的特殊的風情或者學校是不一樣所以我們是目前的做法是配合他們來調整來修正來協助他們做這一塊\n所以我們目前因為我聽到的說法是說你們現在是跟基隆屏東還有新北的地方政府一起合作嘛等到我輻射交案包的時候會再請專家學者來給意見嗎但是你現在我現在就是在問什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段可以請專家學者來給意見啊\n目前我們倒是沒有把這個因為我們還要跟地方政府討論出來什麼樣所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定啟程可是沒有訂定一個啟程的話大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們工作室下我們會在因為每年都會針對這個項目會做一個檢討其實我們會來把這個我們會依照委員的建議我們把它拉到\n對 但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛那這樣子好不好你可以跟地方政府討論一下預估的一個時間這樣子我們才可以知道說我們是不是在今年可以完成這件事情那這個詳細的時如果你們討論完這個時間大概什麼時候可以給我呢大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論好 我們看看我們是不是\n多久的時間可以討論我們盡快我們只是初步討論而已啊討論一個時間點對啊那我總是要追你的進度嘛那你總是要勾個時間吧是好好好謝謝啊謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.508 --> 00:14.490\n謝謝主席我們有請主委好有請主委\n\n00:22.062 --> 00:42.295\n主委好上個禮拜五啊其實院會通過了一個公投案就是要求說您是否同意在這個河山呢經過整體安全評估之後呢恢復繼續運轉那最後呢在這個藍白的聯手之下呢其實已經進負二讀囉要交付協商那在整個關係文案你們可以看到他其實有去講這個\n\n00:43.536 --> 01:00.873\n在整體安全評估後聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全我想請教主委就您的專業我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程報告委員我們現在核電廠發指導是40年\n\n01:07.661 --> 01:32.924\n40年前當初核發執照的時候是根據使用40年的標準來核發的但是我們現在如果要繼續的話現在過去這個40年之後呢當初是沒有評估所以如果要延長使用期限的話是需要評估的那我現在的問題是說我們這個安全的一個評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程是的我們有非常嚴謹的一個流程\n\n01:34.845 --> 01:47.210\n但我記得我上次問您說這個時間要花多久好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準對不對沒有辦法說得準是要花時間的要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛對不對現在都在一個不確定的狀況我自己也會覺得這個問題這個公投的題目\n\n01:51.860 --> 02:14.877\n這種條件式問法很像說如果我今天中樂透我就要去環遊世界問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透嘛也不可能也不保證我一定會中嘛所以這樣子的我們這樣子的條件式的公投很像在許一個願望但是真的會實現嗎因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說的算嘛它就是有個禁令的流程跟國際的標準它必須要經過非常非常多的時間\n\n02:16.038 --> 02:25.953\n才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛對不對有可能的嘛對不對\n\n02:27.679 --> 02:54.831\n公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利不是做白日夢的舞台所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗還有核廢料最終主持長的一個實質問題那我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想那同時我也比較了一下各國針對於核電公投的一些題目\n\n02:56.383 --> 03:08.359\n那像這個是左邊是瑞士啦或是義大利啊其實他們都是在講說針對於這個能源的一個法案大家的一個想法到底是什麼其實沒有去涉及到核電廠是否研議這麼專業的一個問題喔所以\n\n03:12.424 --> 03:36.119\n在我們現在其實河山公投現在已經交付協商可是大家不要忘記我們3月份其實也針對當時這個河管法的說法已經送出委員會了那接下來藍白要做的到底是這個研議的討論呢要以公投為主還是以立法院的程序為主這麼混亂的討論方式沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論\n\n03:41.582 --> 04:08.427\n那如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力那誰要來負責人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全我覺得這是非常危險的也是非常不負責任的甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕我們科學檢驗讓科學檢驗承受一個壓力這都是有可能的所以我認為這是一個非常不負責任的態度\n\n04:10.171 --> 04:23.269\n那接下來我也想要請教就是有關於這個火災的通報時間我其實後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情你們場內有接貨通知然後後來好像是屏東的消防局也有跟河山長確認情況\n\n04:25.891 --> 04:51.200\n那時間點其實總共大概發生是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了這個火勢但是呢這整個的問題在於是說火勢都撲滅了當時因為我們所有的行政主管都在開會所以我們到12點半才通報了我們各機關可是現場已經濃煙嘛所以居民都不知道發生了什麼事情就是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件\n\n04:52.446 --> 05:19.832\n所以我想問雖然合規但是通報時間是否太晚因為這造成你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情外部完全不了解那我看一下現在動力用的核子反應器設施應立即通報的形式及通報時限我們現在其實是有兩種就是說一小時內跟兩小時內但是這是2004年訂的已經過了20年了我們有沒有修正的必要呢我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢\n\n05:21.034 --> 05:24.027\n主委您的想法這點請高組長回答好不好剛才說明了\n\n05:25.854 --> 05:53.285\n那委員提供這個表格是針對安全部分有影響的部分那當天是我們在11點35分有跟河山廠做聯繫那剛才所提出來那個書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來那在整個過程中會裡面的駐場視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認對我現在的問題是說在2004年訂的這樣子的規定世界上還是都沒有做任何的修正嗎這個通報的方式\n\n05:55.810 --> 06:18.670\n呃基本上都是按照這個參考國外定所以我們有實施再修正嗎因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年到現在是沒有修正的這過了20年都還發生了福島事件我們有做任何的修正嗎福島事件是另外一個層次是京島核子事故這個是沒有構成我的意思是說在這個事件之後我們全世界有沒有針對這個通報實現有相關的修正有嗎\n\n06:23.719 --> 06:45.658\n目前根據我所了解是沒有我們可以再確認請你們再確認好不好那再來就是說大家也有在講到就是說我們現在的這些公告內容其實並沒有像並沒有非常非常的清楚那我自己找了一下日本的一個版本它其實是把事件發生的時間時時的更新各設施的狀況可是相對於我們的\n\n06:46.719 --> 07:00.626\n內容其實就非常的簡單那我們是不是有可能參考日本的這個標準呢跟這個格式呢再去把我們的公告裡面寫得更清楚因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的一個擔心的這部分是有可能的嗎\n\n07:03.183 --> 07:21.075\n跟委員說明,事實上我們都有看日本發布訊息事實上我們大部分都有比對過事實上要提供的資訊都一樣,就是時間、地點可是他這邊有講到,像他左下角這邊是有講到各施施的狀況所以我們會針對說兩部機組的狀況去...就是針對機組的狀況沒有影響,我們就直接這樣講\n\n07:30.387 --> 07:51.602\n好那沒關係那我想就是在事件發生時間以及他現在更新的時間點上面我們是不是可以在旁邊做個加注呢這部分我尊重你們的專業啦只是我覺得他這樣子的呈現方式可能是大家比較一目了然的方式啦比較清楚好那再來下一個問題就是說因為我們其實都有做很多的兵推情境喔那我們現在是有火災的版本嗎我們現在有嗎\n\n07:58.010 --> 08:21.623\n我們現在有是不是有那是這次剛好沒有因為我看這幾年的演習幾乎都沒有火災跟委員報告有我們每年火災基本上都是閉演的項目閉演習的項目是嗎所以這個是另外就是針對一些特殊的情境是嗎可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了每一個是的OK好那謝謝那再來最後一個問題喔\n\n08:23.482 --> 08:36.518\n是說去年的時候我有質詢是說因為其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常非常重要嘛那我也非常感謝就是和安會呢其實就找了許多的兒少團體一起來做討論看如何把這個文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂\n\n08:40.783 --> 09:04.398\n那其實我從這些團體的回饋也都覺得他們對於核安會的現在的做法也都保持一個肯定那我現在就想要了解在接下來的進度就是輻射安全校安包目前我知道你們已經要選定了幾個國中北中南的幾個國中小的老師一起來研討這個校安包要怎麼做那我想問一下我們有沒有一個預定的時程呢\n\n09:07.359 --> 09:29.119\n跟委員報告這個因為其實針對這個國中小的這個教案其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的這個學校在做溝通那我們後續原則上還是會參考上次跟這個這個一些學者專家提供的這些意見那我們目前因為\n\n09:30.020 --> 09:53.612\n各地方政府也有在推啦所以事實上我們針對這一塊原則上是在協助地方政府用他們的比較接地氣的方式因為事實上每個區域他針對的這一些他有他的特殊的風情或者學校是不一樣所以我們是目前的做法是配合他們來調整來修正來協助他們做這一塊\n\n09:54.375 --> 10:09.767\n所以我們目前因為我聽到的說法是說你們現在是跟基隆屏東還有新北的地方政府一起合作嘛等到我輻射交案包的時候會再請專家學者來給意見嗎但是你現在我現在就是在問什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段可以請專家學者來給意見啊\n\n10:11.225 --> 10:33.217\n目前我們倒是沒有把這個因為我們還要跟地方政府討論出來什麼樣所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定啟程可是沒有訂定一個啟程的話大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們工作室下我們會在因為每年都會針對這個項目會做一個檢討其實我們會來把這個我們會依照委員的建議我們把它拉到\n\n10:33.317 --> 10:52.135\n對但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛那這樣子好不好你可以跟地方政府討論一下預估的一個時間這樣子我們才可以知道說我們是不是在今年可以完成這件事情那這個詳細的時如果你們討論完這個時間大概什麼時候可以給我呢大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論好我們看看我們是不是\n\n10:54.588 --> 11:06.297\n多久的時間可以討論我們盡快我們只是初步討論而已啊討論一個時間點對啊那我總是要追你的進度嘛那你總是要勾個時間吧是好好好謝謝啊謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.508,"end":14.49,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請主委好 有請主委"},{"start":22.062,"end":42.295,"text":"主委好 上個禮拜五啊 其實院會通過了一個公投案就是要求說您是否同意在這個河山呢經過整體安全評估之後呢 恢復繼續運轉那最後呢 在這個藍白的聯手之下呢其實已經進負二讀囉 要交付協商那在整個關係文案你們可以看到 他其實有去講這個"},{"start":43.536,"end":60.873,"text":"在整體安全評估後聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全我想請教主委就您的專業我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程報告委員我們現在核電廠發指導是40年"},{"start":67.661,"end":92.924,"text":"40年前當初核發執照的時候是根據使用40年的標準來核發的但是我們現在如果要繼續的話現在過去這個40年之後呢當初是沒有評估所以如果要延長使用期限的話是需要評估的那我現在的問題是說我們這個安全的一個評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程是的我們有非常嚴謹的一個流程"},{"start":94.845,"end":107.21,"text":"但我記得我上次問您說這個時間要花多久好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準對不對沒有辦法說得準是要花時間的要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛對不對現在都在一個不確定的狀況我自己也會覺得這個問題這個公投的題目"},{"start":111.86,"end":134.877,"text":"這種條件式問法很像說如果我今天中樂透我就要去環遊世界問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透嘛也不可能也不保證我一定會中嘛所以這樣子的我們這樣子的條件式的公投很像在許一個願望但是真的會實現嗎因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說的算嘛它就是有個禁令的流程跟國際的標準它必須要經過非常非常多的時間"},{"start":136.038,"end":145.953,"text":"才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛對不對有可能的嘛對不對"},{"start":147.679,"end":174.831,"text":"公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利不是做白日夢的舞台所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗還有核廢料最終主持長的一個實質問題那我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想那同時我也比較了一下各國針對於核電公投的一些題目"},{"start":176.383,"end":188.359,"text":"那像這個是左邊是瑞士啦或是義大利啊其實他們都是在講說針對於這個能源的一個法案大家的一個想法到底是什麼其實沒有去涉及到核電廠是否研議這麼專業的一個問題喔所以"},{"start":192.424,"end":216.119,"text":"在我們現在其實河山公投現在已經交付協商可是大家不要忘記我們3月份其實也針對當時這個河管法的說法已經送出委員會了那接下來藍白要做的到底是這個研議的討論呢要以公投為主還是以立法院的程序為主這麼混亂的討論方式沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論"},{"start":221.582,"end":248.427,"text":"那如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力那誰要來負責人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全我覺得這是非常危險的也是非常不負責任的甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕我們科學檢驗讓科學檢驗承受一個壓力這都是有可能的所以我認為這是一個非常不負責任的態度"},{"start":250.171,"end":263.269,"text":"那接下來我也想要請教就是有關於這個火災的通報時間我其實後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情你們場內有接貨通知然後後來好像是屏東的消防局也有跟河山長確認情況"},{"start":265.891,"end":291.2,"text":"那時間點其實總共大概發生是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了這個火勢但是呢這整個的問題在於是說火勢都撲滅了當時因為我們所有的行政主管都在開會所以我們到12點半才通報了我們各機關可是現場已經濃煙嘛所以居民都不知道發生了什麼事情就是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件"},{"start":292.446,"end":319.832,"text":"所以我想問雖然合規但是通報時間是否太晚因為這造成你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情外部完全不了解那我看一下現在動力用的核子反應器設施應立即通報的形式及通報時限我們現在其實是有兩種就是說一小時內跟兩小時內但是這是2004年訂的已經過了20年了我們有沒有修正的必要呢我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢"},{"start":321.034,"end":324.027,"text":"主委您的想法這點請高組長回答好不好剛才說明了"},{"start":325.854,"end":353.285,"text":"那委員提供這個表格是針對安全部分有影響的部分那當天是我們在11點35分有跟河山廠做聯繫那剛才所提出來那個書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來那在整個過程中會裡面的駐場視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認對我現在的問題是說在2004年訂的這樣子的規定世界上還是都沒有做任何的修正嗎這個通報的方式"},{"start":355.81,"end":378.67,"text":"呃 基本上都是按照這個參考國外定所以我們有實施再修正嗎因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年到現在是沒有修正的這過了20年都還發生了福島事件我們有做任何的修正嗎福島事件是另外一個層次是京島核子事故這個是沒有構成我的意思是說在這個事件之後我們全世界有沒有針對這個通報實現有相關的修正有嗎"},{"start":383.719,"end":405.658,"text":"目前根據我所了解是沒有我們可以再確認請你們再確認好不好那再來就是說大家也有在講到就是說我們現在的這些公告內容其實並沒有像並沒有非常非常的清楚那我自己找了一下日本的一個版本它其實是把事件發生的時間時時的更新各設施的狀況可是相對於我們的"},{"start":406.719,"end":420.626,"text":"內容其實就非常的簡單那我們是不是有可能參考日本的這個標準呢跟這個格式呢再去把我們的公告裡面寫得更清楚因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的一個擔心的這部分是有可能的嗎"},{"start":423.183,"end":441.075,"text":"跟委員說明,事實上我們都有看日本發布訊息事實上我們大部分都有比對過事實上要提供的資訊都一樣,就是時間、地點可是他這邊有講到,像他左下角這邊是有講到各施施的狀況所以我們會針對說兩部機組的狀況去...就是針對機組的狀況沒有影響,我們就直接這樣講"},{"start":450.387,"end":471.602,"text":"好那沒關係那我想就是在事件發生時間以及他現在更新的時間點上面我們是不是可以在旁邊做個加注呢這部分我尊重你們的專業啦只是我覺得他這樣子的呈現方式可能是大家比較一目了然的方式啦比較清楚好那再來下一個問題就是說因為我們其實都有做很多的兵推情境喔那我們現在是有火災的版本嗎我們現在有嗎"},{"start":478.01,"end":501.623,"text":"我們現在有是不是有那是這次剛好沒有因為我看這幾年的演習幾乎都沒有火災跟委員報告有我們每年火災基本上都是閉演的項目閉演習的項目是嗎所以這個是另外就是針對一些特殊的情境是嗎可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了每一個是的OK好那謝謝那再來最後一個問題喔"},{"start":503.482,"end":516.518,"text":"是說去年的時候我有質詢是說因為其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常非常重要嘛那我也非常感謝就是和安會呢其實就找了許多的兒少團體一起來做討論看如何把這個文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂"},{"start":520.783,"end":544.398,"text":"那其實我從這些團體的回饋也都覺得他們對於核安會的現在的做法也都保持一個肯定那我現在就想要了解在接下來的進度就是輻射安全校安包目前我知道你們已經要選定了幾個國中北中南的幾個國中小的老師一起來研討這個校安包要怎麼做那我想問一下我們有沒有一個預定的時程呢"},{"start":547.359,"end":569.119,"text":"跟委員報告這個因為其實針對這個國中小的這個教案其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的這個學校在做溝通那我們後續原則上還是會參考上次跟這個這個一些學者專家提供的這些意見那我們目前因為"},{"start":570.02,"end":593.612,"text":"各地方政府也有在推啦所以事實上我們針對這一塊原則上是在協助地方政府用他們的比較接地氣的方式因為事實上每個區域他針對的這一些他有他的特殊的風情或者學校是不一樣所以我們是目前的做法是配合他們來調整來修正來協助他們做這一塊"},{"start":594.375,"end":609.767,"text":"所以我們目前因為我聽到的說法是說你們現在是跟基隆屏東還有新北的地方政府一起合作嘛等到我輻射交案包的時候會再請專家學者來給意見嗎但是你現在我現在就是在問什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段可以請專家學者來給意見啊"},{"start":611.225,"end":633.217,"text":"目前我們倒是沒有把這個因為我們還要跟地方政府討論出來什麼樣所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定啟程可是沒有訂定一個啟程的話大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們工作室下我們會在因為每年都會針對這個項目會做一個檢討其實我們會來把這個我們會依照委員的建議我們把它拉到"},{"start":633.317,"end":652.135,"text":"對 但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛那這樣子好不好你可以跟地方政府討論一下預估的一個時間這樣子我們才可以知道說我們是不是在今年可以完成這件事情那這個詳細的時如果你們討論完這個時間大概什麼時候可以給我呢大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論好 我們看看我們是不是"},{"start":654.588,"end":666.297,"text":"多久的時間可以討論我們盡快我們只是初步討論而已啊討論一個時間點對啊那我總是要追你的進度嘛那你總是要勾個時間吧是好好好謝謝啊謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時26分）謝謝主席，我們有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：上禮拜五院會通過一個公投案，就是：您是否同意在核三經過整體安全評估之後恢復繼續運轉？最後在藍白聯手之下，其實已經逕付二讀了，要交付協商，在整個關係文書中你們可以看到，它其實有講到在整體安全評估後，所以聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全。那我想請教主委，就您的專業，我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全，要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程？"],["陳主任委員明真：報告委員，我們現在核電廠發的執照是40年，40年前當初核發執照的時候，是根據使用40年的標準來核發的。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我們現在如果要繼續的話……"],["陳主任委員明真：現在過了40年之後，當初是沒有評估。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["陳主任委員明真：所以，如果要延長使用期限的話，是需要評估的。"],["張委員雅琳：我現在的問題就是，我們的安全評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的，我們有非常嚴謹的流程。"],["張委員雅琳：我記得我上次問您這個時間要花多久，好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒有辦法說得準，要花時間的。"],["張委員雅琳：要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["張委員雅琳：現在都在一個不確定的狀況。我自己會覺得這個公投的題目、這種條件式問法很像是，如果我今天中樂透，我就要去環遊世界，問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透，也不保證我一定會中。所以這樣子條件式的公投很像在許一個願望，但是真的會實現嗎？因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說得算嘛，它就是有個既定的流程跟國際的標準。"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["張委員雅琳：它必須要經過非常非常多的時間，才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全──是否！"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["張委員雅琳：有可能的嘛，對不對？公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利，不是做白日夢的舞臺，所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗，還有核廢料最終處置場的實質問題，我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論，而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想。同時我也比較了一下各國針對核電公投的題目，像是瑞士或義大利，其實他們都是在講針對於能源的法案，大家的想法到底是什麼？並沒有涉及到核電廠是否延役這麼專業的問題。","現在核三公投已經交付協商，可是大家不要忘記3月份針對核管法進行修法已經送出委員會了，接下來藍白要做的到底是延役的討論要以公投為主，還是以立法院的程序為主？這麼混亂的討論方式，沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論，如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候，我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力，誰要來負責？人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的，所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全，我覺得這是非常危險的，也是非常不負責任的，甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕科學檢驗，讓科學檢驗承受壓力？這都是有可能的！所以我認為這是非常不負責任的態度。","接下來我也想要請教有關於火災的通報時間。我後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情，你們廠內有接獲通知，後來好像屏東消防局也有跟核三廠確認情況，時間點總共大概是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了火勢，但是這整個問題在於，火勢都撲滅了，而當時因為所有行政主管都在開會，所以到了12點半才通報各機關，可是現場已經都是濃煙，居民都不知道發生了什麼事情，於是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件。所以我想要問，雖然合規，但是通報時間是否太晚？因為你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情，但外部完全不了解。我看一下動力用核子反應器設施應立即通報之情事及通報時限，現在其實是有兩種，就是1小時內跟2小時內，但是這是2004年訂的，已經過了20年，有沒有修正的必要呢？我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢？主委，您的想法？"],["陳主任委員明真：這點請高組長回答，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，委員提供這個表格是針對安全有影響的部分。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["高組長斌：當天我們在11點35分有跟核三廠聯繫，剛才所提出來的書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來，在整個過程中，會裡面的駐廠視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我現在的問題是在2004年訂了規定，世界上其他國家都沒有做對通報的方式任何的修正嗎？"],["高組長斌：基本上都是參考國外訂出來的。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們有時時在修正嗎？因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年，到現在是沒有修正，過了20年，都還發生過福島事件，我們有做任何的修正嗎？"],["高組長斌：福島事件是另外一個層次的核子事故，這個是沒有構成……"],["張委員雅琳：我的意思是說，在這個事件之後全世界其他國家有沒有針對這個通報時限有相關的修正，有嗎？"],["高組長斌：目前根據我所了解是沒有，我們可以再確認。"],["張委員雅琳：請你們再確認，好不好？再來，大家也有講到現在的公告內容其實並沒有非常、非常地清楚，我自己找了日本的版本，它除了公告事件發生的時間，也時時更新各設施的狀況，可是相對地我們的內容就非常簡單，我們是不是有可能參考日本的標準跟格式，把我們公告的內容寫得更清楚？因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的擔心，這部分是有可能的嗎？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，我們都有看日本發布的訊息，大部分都有比對過，事實上要提供的資訊都一樣，就是時間、地點、狀況……"],["張委員雅琳：可是它的公告有講到各設施的狀況。"],["高組長斌：所以我們會針對兩部機組的狀況去……"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["高組長斌：我們就直接寫針對機組狀況沒有影響。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，我想在事件發生的時間以及現在更新的時間點上，我們是不是可以在旁邊加註呢？這部分我尊重你們的專業，只是我覺得像日本的呈現方式，可能大家比較一目瞭然、比較清楚。","下一個問題，我們其實都會有做很多兵推情境，現在是有火災的版本嗎？我們現在有嗎？"],["黃組長俊源：有！"],["張委員雅琳：這次剛好沒有，因為我看這幾年的演習幾乎都沒有火災。"],["黃組長俊源：跟委員報告，有，我們每年火災基本上都是必演的項目。"],["張委員雅琳：必演習的項目，是嗎？"],["黃組長俊源：是！"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個是另外針對一些特殊的情境，是嗎？可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了。"],["黃組長俊源：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，謝謝。最後一個問題，去年的時候我有質詢，其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常、非常重要，我也非常感謝核安會找了許多兒少團體一起來討論，看如何把文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂，我從這些團體的回饋，覺得他們對於核安會現在的作法也都保持肯定。我現在想要了解接下來的進度，就是輻射安全教案包，目前我知道你們已經選定了北、中、南幾個國中小的老師一起來研討教案包要怎麼做。我想問有沒有一個預定的時程呢？"],["黃組長俊源：跟委員報告，針對這個國中小的教案，其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的學校做溝通，後續原則上還是會參考上次一些學者專家所提供的意見，目前因為各地方政府也有在推，事實上針對這一塊，我們原則上是協助地方政府用他們比較接地氣的方式，因為每個區域有它特殊的風情或學校有不一樣的方式，所以我們目前的作法是配合它們來調整、來修正，協助他們做這一塊。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我聽到的說法是，你們現在跟基隆、屏東、還有新北市地方政府一起合作，等討論到輻射教案包的時候，會再請專家學者來給意見嗎？"],["黃組長俊源：是。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我現在就在問，什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段，可以請專家學者來給意見？"],["黃組長俊源：目前我們倒是沒有把這一個……因為我們還要再跟地方政府討論，所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定期程。"],["張委員雅琳：可是沒有訂定一個期程的話，大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們要工作的事項。"],["黃組長俊源：會，因為每年都會針對這個項目做一個檢討，我們會依照委員的建議會把它納入。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛！這樣子好不好，你可以跟地方政府討論預估的時間，我們才可以知道今年是不是可以完成這件事情，如果你們討論完這個時間，大概什麼時候可以給我呢？大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論？"],["黃組長俊源：好，我們儘快。"],["張委員雅琳：只是初步討論而已，討論一個時間點，我總是要追你們的進度，那你要給我一個時間吧！"],["黃組長俊源：好！"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，主委請回。"],["主席（張委員雅琳代）：有請宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}}