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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T10:05:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:18:10+08:00","duration":744,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160617","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160617","tool":"pyannote","id":"160617-pyannote"},"job_id":"jMPd2zeUcWzqWChv","queued_at":"2025-04-24 12:30:01","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2025-04-24 12:30:01","msg":"downloading 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{\"word\": \"慧\", \"start\": 742.992, \"end\": 743.132, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 743.132, \"end\": 743.152, \"score\": 0.114}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,100 --> 00:00:26,042\n好謝謝主席主席我覺得這個主持議事當然是讓每人盡唱所欲言不過這個時間我是建議也可以控制一下剛剛前一位可能相對來講久了一點我們不希望每個人都這麼久對但是如果等一下有發言比較長的的話主席我想公平對待是比較好一點\n\n2\n00:00:27,963 --> 00:00:48,291\n我們應該該講的就讓大家講嘛但重複的就不用再一直重複了嘛對不對對啊今天早上是我簽第二個是其他委員其實是簽錯格子我想好心說讓給他結果這樣我一等多等了快要20分鐘這實在是下次不換了好我們請部長跟署長部長跟署長有請好\n\n3\n00:00:51,648 --> 00:01:13,784\n部長跟署長我覺得每個委員都平大所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況我們當然無可厚非不過身為一個第三屆的區域委員服務新北要十年了我想在這幾年當中陪著我們的行政部門一起在不敢說台灣至少新北各地我們興建了社會住宅\n\n4\n00:01:15,325 --> 00:01:30,905\n光是我服務的樹林英哥我們就有英哥的安居然後樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建我可以看到其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民我們李林長大家都組團組隊非常關心到現場去看\n\n5\n00:01:34,449 --> 00:01:44,720\n其實我看到的是我們每個人都充分的對在地即將成為我們鄰居的這一棟大社宅未來要搬進來的住戶們想像的狀況跟公共有的空間大家都熱烈討論啊而且\n\n6\n00:01:50,525 --> 00:02:10,223\n裡面的社宅到底要拿保留多少成分來做公共建設的部分其實也是跟周邊居民跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府其實都有討論非常的多那個署長我記得很多次根本都是你親自主持的嘛那你要不要跟我們說說看\n\n7\n00:02:11,924 --> 00:02:35,296\n這個簡單說明一下我們在做一個地方的社宅規劃的時候到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府來共同決定設計這一棟社會住宅要長成什麼樣的模要有什麼樣的規模以及設備是根文報告其實我們在決定在選擇一個地方的時候第一個一定會跟當地的\n\n8\n00:02:36,136 --> 00:02:53,977\n當地的縣市政府一定會先討論大概次數都多少次啊?大概至少六、七次以後然後決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會先了解民眾大概對我們這一塊基地的一些看法公聽會會參與的是哪一些人?\n\n9\n00:02:54,797 --> 00:03:16,525\n就是在地的黎民而且含周圍可能有30個甚至包含在地民代嘛所以我才有身份可以進去嘛民代還有30周圍都會進去討論所以我們從頭跟到尾光是到底是同樣的公共空間要有是托育還是托老還是這個黎民活動中心的替代等等這個每一個都大家非常非常多的討論\n\n10\n00:03:17,245 --> 00:03:37,095\n如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在耐動建物裡面那耐動建物就已經不是社會住宅了所以你必須要取捨取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論本來就是這個樣子的那我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到了什麼樣的東西我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下看委員看的懂看不懂\n\n11\n00:03:37,775 --> 00:04:04,822\n能不能够跟在地平常有连结我觉得你可能要注意一下这个部分不然每个人的经验不太一样也许他没有跟着一栋社宅成长这样的话可能会比较有误会不能理解你的资料这个你可以再讨论一下好那我们再另外来看一下我今天想要问你我在这个提案说明的部分就有说到我们的社会住宅既然是为了要让大家国民可以有事与且尊严所以我们在第四条\n\n12\n00:04:05,402 --> 00:04:29,669\n列舉了經濟及社會弱勢的身份有13類其中的一類是有身心障礙者那我在這裡發現的狀況是因為我們未成年人是不能來申請社宅的嘛所以你的第7類別身心障礙者表示他可以申請那是表示他是成年的好那如果我的家庭當中是我的未成年子女是身心障礙者但\n\n13\n00:04:30,089 --> 00:04:51,526\n因為他未成年啊所以這樣子有身心障礙未成年者的家庭反而就變成不能來做我們現在的社宅申請人我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長請問內政部是否可參考我的建議在這一條你們的態度如何\n\n14\n00:04:53,179 --> 00:05:17,247\n跟委員報告啦,我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的啦是所以這個部分是不是,因為這個原始定義是在跟衛福部討論的是那既然這個中間或許執行上有產生這樣的一個問題這部分是不是,我們是建議先讓我們可以跟衛福部直接透過行政的協商把這一塊直接納進去會更容易,不一定要立法好\n\n15\n00:05:18,067 --> 00:05:34,189\n如果是這樣子的話我是建議這個部分因為它是明確規定這個是可以有文字修正的空間因為它本來就已經是列在法律裡面是入法的樣態但因為我們保障的家庭所以我認為這條有修法的空間\n\n16\n00:05:34,930 --> 00:06:04,450\n好沒有關係因為我們今天只有詢答要到下一次的真正修法之前我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論我們在修法的程序當中可以直接就這個來做這個條文做討論這是第一個第二個的話呢我上次有質詢過我們設宅大概是三年一起然後得續住一次嘛再接續申請一次好可是我們進去之後常常是年輕人年輕的夫妻那他們可能有了小朋友小朋友\n\n17\n00:06:05,351 --> 00:06:22,629\n長大剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段那麼在入小學的階段我戶籍在哪裡就會非常非常的牽涉到你實際居住地碼然後你的申請學校是哪一間這就是入學規定的狀況\n\n18\n00:06:23,450 --> 00:06:43,219\n那當然也還有在小學的過程當中如果你換了居住地址了之後是否有要轉學的部分當然那是另外一件事情但剛剛在入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候所以我曾經提出考慮就是詢問這個內政部\n\n19\n00:06:45,220 --> 00:07:14,487\n在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮您的意見如何跟我們報告的確啦因為在很多家庭來講在面臨學齡尤其學齡到了他必須要有準備入學的這樣一個狀態下那這個的確是對於社宅的條件他可能會有更強烈的需求包含他可能連房型他都有不一樣的需求\n\n20\n00:07:15,227 --> 00:07:33,121\n對那但是因為所現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多那如果就升多周少嘛就是目前的狀況嘛持續延長就會讓下一輪的會變少沒有錯啊但是在行政措施上當然第二個也有可能他要考慮學區對他也可能必須要搬離\n\n21\n00:07:33,601 --> 00:07:48,930\n因為剛好就是我們最卡關的時候那個就是在決定要唸哪一間小學的時候所以有關這一點我們也參考了委員大家的一個建議啦就是說針對這一個婚育家尤其是育有未成年子女的家庭的部分那這個部分呢我們會\n\n22\n00:07:50,798 --> 00:08:17,517\n我們是比較目前朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定的數量的時候我們是不是來考慮來訂定相關的一個專案的一個政策來協助這些育有未成年家庭的他能夠更安定那不一定是在社宅裡面他可能在其他租金補貼或什麼他享有更好的這個照顧讓他能夠放心的即便我是要挑學區我不住社宅了我還是可以\n\n23\n00:08:17,937 --> 00:08:34,994\n找到適合的房子那得到政府更多的補助我了解你也注意到這個問題我這樣可以感受到一你有注意到這個問題二你也有在想對策啦但我們因為詢答的時間就是這麼短可能沒有辦法講得很清楚所以我想這個用這兩個題目來跟內政部這邊交換意見的其實是\n\n24\n00:08:38,758 --> 00:08:55,278\n社宅大家都喜歡因為他照顧到了經濟弱勢那或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群好大家都喜歡的狀況下社宅現在正在興建但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者\n\n25\n00:08:55,979 --> 00:09:24,105\n所以當然就會產生了很多的從入住條件開始一直到續住條件還有中間的租金等等這一些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見可是我必須說如果是我們用這樣的一部法律來規定的話就必須要注意到法是強制到社會的每一個面向每一個地理位置每一個溫層不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了所以我注意到剛剛署長\n\n26\n00:09:25,425 --> 00:09:47,891\n部長有提到你提到了行政措施這個概念也就是說在我的觀察來講因為問題太多太細太繁雜了所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面需要為行政行政措施保留一個空間這是你剛剛的意思嗎我解讀起來是這樣\n\n27\n00:09:48,371 --> 00:10:06,505\n各位委員包括我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法行政措施上能夠針對每個時期不同的需求我們去做一些彈性的一個修正那但是因為立法是比較剛性的一旦做了就是在一定的期間變成全國通他不能隨意更動\n\n28\n00:10:07,025 --> 00:10:22,705\n好那署長因為我們已經討論多次不只是在這個質詢台上面啦所以那我今天具體的要求是不是可以請部長署長這邊喔我們社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間了吧現在大概是已經六年了六年剛好就是第一輪\n\n29\n00:10:23,286 --> 00:10:41,151\n第一輪的這個入住社宅的在就是包括三年加三年續住的這樣叫做第一輪嘛剛好完成嘛所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討的階段你是不是能夠把這一個第一輪完成的狀況到底發生了哪一些問題然後你現在提出的哪一些對策是不是可以列舉並且\n\n30\n00:10:43,152 --> 00:11:11,624\n並且我是強烈的建議把各縣市政府就是六都因為六都有時候是自己興建的會有自己的規定那六都以外的大概是中央代為興建所以會有很多不同的規定同一個問題會有不同的規定比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況還有租金也會不太一樣的狀況那是不是可以請你把這些所有目前的社會住宅的相關規定以及它的優劣意見整理列表\n\n31\n00:11:12,684 --> 00:11:39,217\n讓我們在修法的過程中一起來討論哪一些是繼續保留行政措施讓它有彈性有空間甚至可以因地制宜縣市不同有不同的規定那哪一些又是覺得已經都這個實施下來都很棒應該要調整那我們就讓它剛性入法全國統一也不會優惠措施不一樣我想提這個建議不曉得部長署長覺得如何其實感謝感謝委員其實我們\n\n32\n00:11:40,570 --> 00:12:01,734\n委員提這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的應該要趁著這一輪已經做已經租完一輪了然後把所有的問題都彙整那我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平台的會議那我們這就把它從現在就開始去收集這些議題在大平台會議去討論把它聚焦以後\n\n33\n00:12:02,294 --> 00:12:23,152\n那其實都可以提供給大院裡面這邊我是希望這個資料可以盡快提出因為如果我們要修法的話一定是要有這份的資料主席你站起來的話這樣就沒意思了你不要亂動啊我自己說謝謝就好我有看時間啊好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝蘇巧慧委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3100\t26042\t好 謝謝主席主席我覺得這個主持議事當然是讓每人盡唱所欲言不過這個時間我是建議也可以控制一下剛剛前一位可能相對來講久了一點我們不希望每個人都這麼久對 但是如果等一下有發言比較長的的話主席我想公平對待是比較好一點\n27963\t48291\t我們應該該講的就讓大家講嘛但重複的就不用再一直重複了嘛對不對對啊今天早上是我簽第二個是其他委員其實是簽錯格子我想好心說讓給他結果這樣我一等多等了快要20分鐘這實在是下次不換了好我們請部長跟署長部長跟署長有請好\n51648\t73784\t部長跟署長我覺得每個委員都平大所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況我們當然無可厚非不過身為一個第三屆的區域委員服務新北要十年了我想在這幾年當中陪著我們的行政部門一起在不敢說台灣至少新北各地我們興建了社會住宅\n75325\t90905\t光是我服務的樹林英哥我們就有英哥的安居然後樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建我可以看到其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民我們李林長大家都組團組隊非常關心到現場去看\n94449\t104720\t其實我看到的是我們每個人都充分的對在地即將成為我們鄰居的這一棟大社宅未來要搬進來的住戶們想像的狀況跟公共有的空間大家都熱烈討論啊而且\n110525\t130223\t裡面的社宅到底要拿保留多少成分來做公共建設的部分其實也是跟周邊居民跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府其實都有討論非常的多那個署長我記得很多次根本都是你親自主持的嘛那你要不要跟我們說說看\n131924\t155296\t這個簡單說明一下我們在做一個地方的社宅規劃的時候到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府來共同決定設計這一棟社會住宅要長成什麼樣的模要有什麼樣的規模以及設備是 根文報告其實我們在決定在選擇一個地方的時候第一個一定會跟當地的\n156136\t173977\t當地的縣市政府一定會先討論大概次數都多少次啊?大概至少六、七次以後然後決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會先了解民眾大概對我們這一塊基地的一些看法公聽會會參與的是哪一些人?\n174797\t196525\t就是在地的黎民 而且含周圍可能有30個 甚至包含在地民代嘛所以我才有身份可以進去嘛 民代還有30周圍都會進去討論所以我們從頭跟到尾 光是到底是同樣的公共空間要有是托育 還是托老 還是這個黎民活動中心的替代等等這個每一個都大家非常非常多的討論\n197245\t217095\t如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在耐動建物裡面那耐動建物就已經不是社會住宅了所以你必須要取捨取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論本來就是這個樣子的那我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到了什麼樣的東西我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下看委員看的懂看不懂\n217775\t244822\t能不能够跟在地平常有连结我觉得你可能要注意一下这个部分不然每个人的经验不太一样也许他没有跟着一栋社宅成长这样的话可能会比较有误会不能理解你的资料这个你可以再讨论一下好那我们再另外来看一下我今天想要问你我在这个提案说明的部分就有说到我们的社会住宅既然是为了要让大家国民可以有事与且尊严所以我们在第四条\n245402\t269669\t列舉了經濟及社會弱勢的身份有13類其中的一類是有身心障礙者那我在這裡發現的狀況是因為我們未成年人是不能來申請社宅的嘛所以你的第7類別身心障礙者表示他可以申請那是表示他是成年的好那如果我的家庭當中是我的未成年子女是身心障礙者但\n270089\t291526\t因為他未成年啊所以這樣子有身心障礙未成年者的家庭反而就變成不能來做我們現在的社宅申請人我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長請問內政部是否可參考我的建議在這一條你們的態度如何\n293179\t317247\t跟委員報告啦,我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的啦是所以這個部分是不是,因為這個原始定義是在跟衛福部討論的是那既然這個中間或許執行上有產生這樣的一個問題這部分是不是,我們是建議先讓我們可以跟衛福部直接透過行政的協商把這一塊直接納進去會更容易,不一定要立法好\n318067\t334189\t如果是這樣子的話我是建議這個部分因為它是明確規定這個是可以有文字修正的空間因為它本來就已經是列在法律裡面是入法的樣態但因為我們保障的家庭所以我認為這條有修法的空間\n334930\t364450\t好沒有關係因為我們今天只有詢答要到下一次的真正修法之前我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論我們在修法的程序當中可以直接就這個來做這個條文做討論這是第一個第二個的話呢我上次有質詢過我們設宅大概是三年一起然後得續住一次嘛再接續申請一次好可是我們進去之後常常是年輕人年輕的夫妻那他們可能有了小朋友小朋友\n365351\t382629\t長大剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段那麼在入小學的階段我戶籍在哪裡就會非常非常的牽涉到你實際居住地碼然後你的申請學校是哪一間這就是入學規定的狀況\n383450\t403219\t那當然也還有在小學的過程當中如果你換了居住地址了之後是否有要轉學的部分當然那是另外一件事情但剛剛在入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候所以我曾經提出考慮就是詢問這個內政部\n405220\t434487\t在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮您的意見如何跟我們報告的確啦因為在很多家庭來講在面臨學齡尤其學齡到了他必須要有準備入學的這樣一個狀態下那這個的確是對於社宅的條件他可能會有更強烈的需求包含他可能連房型他都有不一樣的需求\n435227\t453121\t對那但是因為所現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多那如果就升多周少嘛就是目前的狀況嘛持續延長就會讓下一輪的會變少沒有錯啊但是在行政措施上當然第二個也有可能他要考慮學區對他也可能必須要搬離\n453601\t468930\t因為剛好就是我們最卡關的時候那個就是在決定要唸哪一間小學的時候所以有關這一點我們也參考了委員大家的一個建議啦就是說針對這一個婚育家尤其是育有未成年子女的家庭的部分那這個部分呢我們會\n470798\t497517\t我們是比較目前朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定的數量的時候我們是不是來考慮來訂定相關的一個專案的一個政策來協助這些育有未成年家庭的他能夠更安定那不一定是在社宅裡面他可能在其他租金補貼或什麼他享有更好的這個照顧讓他能夠放心的即便我是要挑學區我不住社宅了我還是可以\n497937\t514994\t找到適合的房子那得到政府更多的補助我了解你也注意到這個問題我這樣可以感受到一你有注意到這個問題二你也有在想對策啦但我們因為詢答的時間就是這麼短可能沒有辦法講得很清楚所以我想這個用這兩個題目來跟內政部這邊交換意見的其實是\n518758\t535278\t社宅大家都喜歡因為他照顧到了經濟弱勢那或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群好大家都喜歡的狀況下社宅現在正在興建但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者\n535979\t564105\t所以當然就會產生了很多的從入住條件開始一直到續住條件還有中間的租金等等這一些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見可是我必須說如果是我們用這樣的一部法律來規定的話就必須要注意到法是強制到社會的每一個面向每一個地理位置每一個溫層不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了所以我注意到剛剛署長\n565425\t587891\t部長有提到你提到了行政措施這個概念也就是說在我的觀察來講因為問題太多太細太繁雜了所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面需要為行政行政措施保留一個空間這是你剛剛的意思嗎我解讀起來是這樣\n588371\t606505\t各位委員包括我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法行政措施上能夠針對每個時期不同的需求我們去做一些彈性的一個修正那但是因為立法是比較剛性的一旦做了就是在一定的期間變成全國通他不能隨意更動\n607025\t622705\t好 那署長因為我們已經討論多次不只是在這個質詢台上面啦所以那我今天具體的要求是不是可以請部長署長這邊喔我們社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間了吧現在大概是已經六年了六年剛好就是第一輪\n623286\t641151\t第一輪的這個入住社宅的在就是包括三年加三年續住的這樣叫做第一輪嘛剛好完成嘛所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討的階段你是不是能夠把這一個第一輪完成的狀況到底發生了哪一些問題然後你現在提出的哪一些對策是不是可以列舉並且\n643152\t671624\t並且我是強烈的建議把各縣市政府就是六都因為六都有時候是自己興建的會有自己的規定那六都以外的大概是中央代為興建所以會有很多不同的規定同一個問題會有不同的規定比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況還有租金也會不太一樣的狀況那是不是可以請你把這些所有目前的社會住宅的相關規定以及它的優劣意見整理列表\n672684\t699217\t讓我們在修法的過程中一起來討論哪一些是繼續保留行政措施讓它有彈性有空間甚至可以因地制宜縣市不同有不同的規定那哪一些又是覺得已經都這個實施下來都很棒應該要調整那我們就讓它剛性入法全國統一也不會優惠措施不一樣我想提這個建議不曉得部長署長覺得如何其實感謝 感謝委員其實我們\n700570\t721734\t委員提這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的應該要趁著這一輪已經做已經租完一輪了然後把所有的問題都彙整那我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平台的會議那我們這就把它從現在就開始去收集這些議題在大平台會議去討論把它聚焦以後\n722294\t743152\t那其實都可以提供給大院裡面這邊我是希望這個資料可以盡快提出因為如果我們要修法的話一定是要有這份的資料主席你站起來的話這樣就沒意思了你不要亂動啊我自己說謝謝就好我有看時間啊好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝蘇巧慧委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席主席我覺得這個主持議事當然是讓每人盡唱所欲言不過這個時間我是建議也可以控制一下剛剛前一位可能相對來講久了一點我們不希望每個人都這麼久對 但是如果等一下有發言比較長的的話主席我想公平對待是比較好一點\n我們應該該講的就讓大家講嘛但重複的就不用再一直重複了嘛對不對對啊今天早上是我簽第二個是其他委員其實是簽錯格子我想好心說讓給他結果這樣我一等多等了快要20分鐘這實在是下次不換了好我們請部長跟署長部長跟署長有請好\n部長跟署長我覺得每個委員都平大所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況我們當然無可厚非不過身為一個第三屆的區域委員服務新北要十年了我想在這幾年當中陪著我們的行政部門一起在不敢說台灣至少新北各地我們興建了社會住宅\n光是我服務的樹林英哥我們就有英哥的安居然後樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建我可以看到其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民我們李林長大家都組團組隊非常關心到現場去看\n其實我看到的是我們每個人都充分的對在地即將成為我們鄰居的這一棟大社宅未來要搬進來的住戶們想像的狀況跟公共有的空間大家都熱烈討論啊而且\n裡面的社宅到底要拿保留多少成分來做公共建設的部分其實也是跟周邊居民跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府其實都有討論非常的多那個署長我記得很多次根本都是你親自主持的嘛那你要不要跟我們說說看\n這個簡單說明一下我們在做一個地方的社宅規劃的時候到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府來共同決定設計這一棟社會住宅要長成什麼樣的模要有什麼樣的規模以及設備是 根文報告其實我們在決定在選擇一個地方的時候第一個一定會跟當地的\n當地的縣市政府一定會先討論大概次數都多少次啊?大概至少六、七次以後然後決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會先了解民眾大概對我們這一塊基地的一些看法公聽會會參與的是哪一些人?\n就是在地的黎民 而且含周圍可能有30個 甚至包含在地民代嘛所以我才有身份可以進去嘛 民代還有30周圍都會進去討論所以我們從頭跟到尾 光是到底是同樣的公共空間要有是托育 還是托老 還是這個黎民活動中心的替代等等這個每一個都大家非常非常多的討論\n如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在耐動建物裡面那耐動建物就已經不是社會住宅了所以你必須要取捨取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論本來就是這個樣子的那我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到了什麼樣的東西我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下看委員看的懂看不懂\n能不能够跟在地平常有连结我觉得你可能要注意一下这个部分不然每个人的经验不太一样也许他没有跟着一栋社宅成长这样的话可能会比较有误会不能理解你的资料这个你可以再讨论一下好那我们再另外来看一下我今天想要问你我在这个提案说明的部分就有说到我们的社会住宅既然是为了要让大家国民可以有事与且尊严所以我们在第四条\n列舉了經濟及社會弱勢的身份有13類其中的一類是有身心障礙者那我在這裡發現的狀況是因為我們未成年人是不能來申請社宅的嘛所以你的第7類別身心障礙者表示他可以申請那是表示他是成年的好那如果我的家庭當中是我的未成年子女是身心障礙者但\n因為他未成年啊所以這樣子有身心障礙未成年者的家庭反而就變成不能來做我們現在的社宅申請人我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長請問內政部是否可參考我的建議在這一條你們的態度如何\n跟委員報告啦,我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的啦是所以這個部分是不是,因為這個原始定義是在跟衛福部討論的是那既然這個中間或許執行上有產生這樣的一個問題這部分是不是,我們是建議先讓我們可以跟衛福部直接透過行政的協商把這一塊直接納進去會更容易,不一定要立法好\n如果是這樣子的話我是建議這個部分因為它是明確規定這個是可以有文字修正的空間因為它本來就已經是列在法律裡面是入法的樣態但因為我們保障的家庭所以我認為這條有修法的空間\n好沒有關係因為我們今天只有詢答要到下一次的真正修法之前我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論我們在修法的程序當中可以直接就這個來做這個條文做討論這是第一個第二個的話呢我上次有質詢過我們設宅大概是三年一起然後得續住一次嘛再接續申請一次好可是我們進去之後常常是年輕人年輕的夫妻那他們可能有了小朋友小朋友\n長大剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段那麼在入小學的階段我戶籍在哪裡就會非常非常的牽涉到你實際居住地碼然後你的申請學校是哪一間這就是入學規定的狀況\n那當然也還有在小學的過程當中如果你換了居住地址了之後是否有要轉學的部分當然那是另外一件事情但剛剛在入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候所以我曾經提出考慮就是詢問這個內政部\n在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮您的意見如何跟我們報告的確啦因為在很多家庭來講在面臨學齡尤其學齡到了他必須要有準備入學的這樣一個狀態下那這個的確是對於社宅的條件他可能會有更強烈的需求包含他可能連房型他都有不一樣的需求\n對那但是因為所現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多那如果就升多周少嘛就是目前的狀況嘛持續延長就會讓下一輪的會變少沒有錯啊但是在行政措施上當然第二個也有可能他要考慮學區對他也可能必須要搬離\n因為剛好就是我們最卡關的時候那個就是在決定要唸哪一間小學的時候所以有關這一點我們也參考了委員大家的一個建議啦就是說針對這一個婚育家尤其是育有未成年子女的家庭的部分那這個部分呢我們會\n我們是比較目前朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定的數量的時候我們是不是來考慮來訂定相關的一個專案的一個政策來協助這些育有未成年家庭的他能夠更安定那不一定是在社宅裡面他可能在其他租金補貼或什麼他享有更好的這個照顧讓他能夠放心的即便我是要挑學區我不住社宅了我還是可以\n找到適合的房子那得到政府更多的補助我了解你也注意到這個問題我這樣可以感受到一你有注意到這個問題二你也有在想對策啦但我們因為詢答的時間就是這麼短可能沒有辦法講得很清楚所以我想這個用這兩個題目來跟內政部這邊交換意見的其實是\n社宅大家都喜歡因為他照顧到了經濟弱勢那或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群好大家都喜歡的狀況下社宅現在正在興建但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者\n所以當然就會產生了很多的從入住條件開始一直到續住條件還有中間的租金等等這一些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見可是我必須說如果是我們用這樣的一部法律來規定的話就必須要注意到法是強制到社會的每一個面向每一個地理位置每一個溫層不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了所以我注意到剛剛署長\n部長有提到你提到了行政措施這個概念也就是說在我的觀察來講因為問題太多太細太繁雜了所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面需要為行政行政措施保留一個空間這是你剛剛的意思嗎我解讀起來是這樣\n各位委員包括我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法行政措施上能夠針對每個時期不同的需求我們去做一些彈性的一個修正那但是因為立法是比較剛性的一旦做了就是在一定的期間變成全國通他不能隨意更動\n好 那署長因為我們已經討論多次不只是在這個質詢台上面啦所以那我今天具體的要求是不是可以請部長署長這邊喔我們社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間了吧現在大概是已經六年了六年剛好就是第一輪\n第一輪的這個入住社宅的在就是包括三年加三年續住的這樣叫做第一輪嘛剛好完成嘛所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討的階段你是不是能夠把這一個第一輪完成的狀況到底發生了哪一些問題然後你現在提出的哪一些對策是不是可以列舉並且\n並且我是強烈的建議把各縣市政府就是六都因為六都有時候是自己興建的會有自己的規定那六都以外的大概是中央代為興建所以會有很多不同的規定同一個問題會有不同的規定比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況還有租金也會不太一樣的狀況那是不是可以請你把這些所有目前的社會住宅的相關規定以及它的優劣意見整理列表\n讓我們在修法的過程中一起來討論哪一些是繼續保留行政措施讓它有彈性有空間甚至可以因地制宜縣市不同有不同的規定那哪一些又是覺得已經都這個實施下來都很棒應該要調整那我們就讓它剛性入法全國統一也不會優惠措施不一樣我想提這個建議不曉得部長署長覺得如何其實感謝 感謝委員其實我們\n委員提這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的應該要趁著這一輪已經做已經租完一輪了然後把所有的問題都彙整那我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平台的會議那我們這就把它從現在就開始去收集這些議題在大平台會議去討論把它聚焦以後\n那其實都可以提供給大院裡面這邊我是希望這個資料可以盡快提出因為如果我們要修法的話一定是要有這份的資料主席你站起來的話這樣就沒意思了你不要亂動啊我自己說謝謝就好我有看時間啊好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝蘇巧慧委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.100 --> 00:26.042\n好謝謝主席主席我覺得這個主持議事當然是讓每人盡唱所欲言不過這個時間我是建議也可以控制一下剛剛前一位可能相對來講久了一點我們不希望每個人都這麼久對但是如果等一下有發言比較長的的話主席我想公平對待是比較好一點\n\n00:27.963 --> 00:48.291\n我們應該該講的就讓大家講嘛但重複的就不用再一直重複了嘛對不對對啊今天早上是我簽第二個是其他委員其實是簽錯格子我想好心說讓給他結果這樣我一等多等了快要20分鐘這實在是下次不換了好我們請部長跟署長部長跟署長有請好\n\n00:51.648 --> 01:13.784\n部長跟署長我覺得每個委員都平大所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況我們當然無可厚非不過身為一個第三屆的區域委員服務新北要十年了我想在這幾年當中陪著我們的行政部門一起在不敢說台灣至少新北各地我們興建了社會住宅\n\n01:15.325 --> 01:30.905\n光是我服務的樹林英哥我們就有英哥的安居然後樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建我可以看到其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民我們李林長大家都組團組隊非常關心到現場去看\n\n01:34.449 --> 01:44.720\n其實我看到的是我們每個人都充分的對在地即將成為我們鄰居的這一棟大社宅未來要搬進來的住戶們想像的狀況跟公共有的空間大家都熱烈討論啊而且\n\n01:50.525 --> 02:10.223\n裡面的社宅到底要拿保留多少成分來做公共建設的部分其實也是跟周邊居民跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府其實都有討論非常的多那個署長我記得很多次根本都是你親自主持的嘛那你要不要跟我們說說看\n\n02:11.924 --> 02:35.296\n這個簡單說明一下我們在做一個地方的社宅規劃的時候到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府來共同決定設計這一棟社會住宅要長成什麼樣的模要有什麼樣的規模以及設備是根文報告其實我們在決定在選擇一個地方的時候第一個一定會跟當地的\n\n02:36.136 --> 02:53.977\n當地的縣市政府一定會先討論大概次數都多少次啊?大概至少六、七次以後然後決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會先了解民眾大概對我們這一塊基地的一些看法公聽會會參與的是哪一些人?\n\n02:54.797 --> 03:16.525\n就是在地的黎民而且含周圍可能有30個甚至包含在地民代嘛所以我才有身份可以進去嘛民代還有30周圍都會進去討論所以我們從頭跟到尾光是到底是同樣的公共空間要有是托育還是托老還是這個黎民活動中心的替代等等這個每一個都大家非常非常多的討論\n\n03:17.245 --> 03:37.095\n如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在耐動建物裡面那耐動建物就已經不是社會住宅了所以你必須要取捨取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論本來就是這個樣子的那我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到了什麼樣的東西我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下看委員看的懂看不懂\n\n03:37.775 --> 04:04.822\n能不能够跟在地平常有连结我觉得你可能要注意一下这个部分不然每个人的经验不太一样也许他没有跟着一栋社宅成长这样的话可能会比较有误会不能理解你的资料这个你可以再讨论一下好那我们再另外来看一下我今天想要问你我在这个提案说明的部分就有说到我们的社会住宅既然是为了要让大家国民可以有事与且尊严所以我们在第四条\n\n04:05.402 --> 04:29.669\n列舉了經濟及社會弱勢的身份有13類其中的一類是有身心障礙者那我在這裡發現的狀況是因為我們未成年人是不能來申請社宅的嘛所以你的第7類別身心障礙者表示他可以申請那是表示他是成年的好那如果我的家庭當中是我的未成年子女是身心障礙者但\n\n04:30.089 --> 04:51.526\n因為他未成年啊所以這樣子有身心障礙未成年者的家庭反而就變成不能來做我們現在的社宅申請人我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長請問內政部是否可參考我的建議在這一條你們的態度如何\n\n04:53.179 --> 05:17.247\n跟委員報告啦,我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的啦是所以這個部分是不是,因為這個原始定義是在跟衛福部討論的是那既然這個中間或許執行上有產生這樣的一個問題這部分是不是,我們是建議先讓我們可以跟衛福部直接透過行政的協商把這一塊直接納進去會更容易,不一定要立法好\n\n05:18.067 --> 05:34.189\n如果是這樣子的話我是建議這個部分因為它是明確規定這個是可以有文字修正的空間因為它本來就已經是列在法律裡面是入法的樣態但因為我們保障的家庭所以我認為這條有修法的空間\n\n05:34.930 --> 06:04.450\n好沒有關係因為我們今天只有詢答要到下一次的真正修法之前我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論我們在修法的程序當中可以直接就這個來做這個條文做討論這是第一個第二個的話呢我上次有質詢過我們設宅大概是三年一起然後得續住一次嘛再接續申請一次好可是我們進去之後常常是年輕人年輕的夫妻那他們可能有了小朋友小朋友\n\n06:05.351 --> 06:22.629\n長大剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段那麼在入小學的階段我戶籍在哪裡就會非常非常的牽涉到你實際居住地碼然後你的申請學校是哪一間這就是入學規定的狀況\n\n06:23.450 --> 06:43.219\n那當然也還有在小學的過程當中如果你換了居住地址了之後是否有要轉學的部分當然那是另外一件事情但剛剛在入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候所以我曾經提出考慮就是詢問這個內政部\n\n06:45.220 --> 07:14.487\n在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮您的意見如何跟我們報告的確啦因為在很多家庭來講在面臨學齡尤其學齡到了他必須要有準備入學的這樣一個狀態下那這個的確是對於社宅的條件他可能會有更強烈的需求包含他可能連房型他都有不一樣的需求\n\n07:15.227 --> 07:33.121\n對那但是因為所現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多那如果就升多周少嘛就是目前的狀況嘛持續延長就會讓下一輪的會變少沒有錯啊但是在行政措施上當然第二個也有可能他要考慮學區對他也可能必須要搬離\n\n07:33.601 --> 07:48.930\n因為剛好就是我們最卡關的時候那個就是在決定要唸哪一間小學的時候所以有關這一點我們也參考了委員大家的一個建議啦就是說針對這一個婚育家尤其是育有未成年子女的家庭的部分那這個部分呢我們會\n\n07:50.798 --> 08:17.517\n我們是比較目前朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定的數量的時候我們是不是來考慮來訂定相關的一個專案的一個政策來協助這些育有未成年家庭的他能夠更安定那不一定是在社宅裡面他可能在其他租金補貼或什麼他享有更好的這個照顧讓他能夠放心的即便我是要挑學區我不住社宅了我還是可以\n\n08:17.937 --> 08:34.994\n找到適合的房子那得到政府更多的補助我了解你也注意到這個問題我這樣可以感受到一你有注意到這個問題二你也有在想對策啦但我們因為詢答的時間就是這麼短可能沒有辦法講得很清楚所以我想這個用這兩個題目來跟內政部這邊交換意見的其實是\n\n08:38.758 --> 08:55.278\n社宅大家都喜歡因為他照顧到了經濟弱勢那或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群好大家都喜歡的狀況下社宅現在正在興建但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者\n\n08:55.979 --> 09:24.105\n所以當然就會產生了很多的從入住條件開始一直到續住條件還有中間的租金等等這一些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見可是我必須說如果是我們用這樣的一部法律來規定的話就必須要注意到法是強制到社會的每一個面向每一個地理位置每一個溫層不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了所以我注意到剛剛署長\n\n09:25.425 --> 09:47.891\n部長有提到你提到了行政措施這個概念也就是說在我的觀察來講因為問題太多太細太繁雜了所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面需要為行政行政措施保留一個空間這是你剛剛的意思嗎我解讀起來是這樣\n\n09:48.371 --> 10:06.505\n各位委員包括我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法行政措施上能夠針對每個時期不同的需求我們去做一些彈性的一個修正那但是因為立法是比較剛性的一旦做了就是在一定的期間變成全國通他不能隨意更動\n\n10:07.025 --> 10:22.705\n好那署長因為我們已經討論多次不只是在這個質詢台上面啦所以那我今天具體的要求是不是可以請部長署長這邊喔我們社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間了吧現在大概是已經六年了六年剛好就是第一輪\n\n10:23.286 --> 10:41.151\n第一輪的這個入住社宅的在就是包括三年加三年續住的這樣叫做第一輪嘛剛好完成嘛所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討的階段你是不是能夠把這一個第一輪完成的狀況到底發生了哪一些問題然後你現在提出的哪一些對策是不是可以列舉並且\n\n10:43.152 --> 11:11.624\n並且我是強烈的建議把各縣市政府就是六都因為六都有時候是自己興建的會有自己的規定那六都以外的大概是中央代為興建所以會有很多不同的規定同一個問題會有不同的規定比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況還有租金也會不太一樣的狀況那是不是可以請你把這些所有目前的社會住宅的相關規定以及它的優劣意見整理列表\n\n11:12.684 --> 11:39.217\n讓我們在修法的過程中一起來討論哪一些是繼續保留行政措施讓它有彈性有空間甚至可以因地制宜縣市不同有不同的規定那哪一些又是覺得已經都這個實施下來都很棒應該要調整那我們就讓它剛性入法全國統一也不會優惠措施不一樣我想提這個建議不曉得部長署長覺得如何其實感謝感謝委員其實我們\n\n11:40.570 --> 12:01.734\n委員提這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的應該要趁著這一輪已經做已經租完一輪了然後把所有的問題都彙整那我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平台的會議那我們這就把它從現在就開始去收集這些議題在大平台會議去討論把它聚焦以後\n\n12:02.294 --> 12:23.152\n那其實都可以提供給大院裡面這邊我是希望這個資料可以盡快提出因為如果我們要修法的話一定是要有這份的資料主席你站起來的話這樣就沒意思了你不要亂動啊我自己說謝謝就好我有看時間啊好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝蘇巧慧委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.1,"end":26.042,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席我覺得這個主持議事當然是讓每人盡唱所欲言不過這個時間我是建議也可以控制一下剛剛前一位可能相對來講久了一點我們不希望每個人都這麼久對 但是如果等一下有發言比較長的的話主席我想公平對待是比較好一點"},{"start":27.963,"end":48.291,"text":"我們應該該講的就讓大家講嘛但重複的就不用再一直重複了嘛對不對對啊今天早上是我簽第二個是其他委員其實是簽錯格子我想好心說讓給他結果這樣我一等多等了快要20分鐘這實在是下次不換了好我們請部長跟署長部長跟署長有請好"},{"start":51.648,"end":73.784,"text":"部長跟署長我覺得每個委員都平大所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況我們當然無可厚非不過身為一個第三屆的區域委員服務新北要十年了我想在這幾年當中陪著我們的行政部門一起在不敢說台灣至少新北各地我們興建了社會住宅"},{"start":75.325,"end":90.905,"text":"光是我服務的樹林英哥我們就有英哥的安居然後樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建我可以看到其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民我們李林長大家都組團組隊非常關心到現場去看"},{"start":94.449,"end":104.72,"text":"其實我看到的是我們每個人都充分的對在地即將成為我們鄰居的這一棟大社宅未來要搬進來的住戶們想像的狀況跟公共有的空間大家都熱烈討論啊而且"},{"start":110.525,"end":130.223,"text":"裡面的社宅到底要拿保留多少成分來做公共建設的部分其實也是跟周邊居民跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府其實都有討論非常的多那個署長我記得很多次根本都是你親自主持的嘛那你要不要跟我們說說看"},{"start":131.924,"end":155.296,"text":"這個簡單說明一下我們在做一個地方的社宅規劃的時候到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府來共同決定設計這一棟社會住宅要長成什麼樣的模要有什麼樣的規模以及設備是 根文報告其實我們在決定在選擇一個地方的時候第一個一定會跟當地的"},{"start":156.136,"end":173.977,"text":"當地的縣市政府一定會先討論大概次數都多少次啊?大概至少六、七次以後然後決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會先了解民眾大概對我們這一塊基地的一些看法公聽會會參與的是哪一些人?"},{"start":174.797,"end":196.525,"text":"就是在地的黎民 而且含周圍可能有30個 甚至包含在地民代嘛所以我才有身份可以進去嘛 民代還有30周圍都會進去討論所以我們從頭跟到尾 光是到底是同樣的公共空間要有是托育 還是托老 還是這個黎民活動中心的替代等等這個每一個都大家非常非常多的討論"},{"start":197.245,"end":217.095,"text":"如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在耐動建物裡面那耐動建物就已經不是社會住宅了所以你必須要取捨取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論本來就是這個樣子的那我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到了什麼樣的東西我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下看委員看的懂看不懂"},{"start":217.775,"end":244.822,"text":"能不能够跟在地平常有连结我觉得你可能要注意一下这个部分不然每个人的经验不太一样也许他没有跟着一栋社宅成长这样的话可能会比较有误会不能理解你的资料这个你可以再讨论一下好那我们再另外来看一下我今天想要问你我在这个提案说明的部分就有说到我们的社会住宅既然是为了要让大家国民可以有事与且尊严所以我们在第四条"},{"start":245.402,"end":269.669,"text":"列舉了經濟及社會弱勢的身份有13類其中的一類是有身心障礙者那我在這裡發現的狀況是因為我們未成年人是不能來申請社宅的嘛所以你的第7類別身心障礙者表示他可以申請那是表示他是成年的好那如果我的家庭當中是我的未成年子女是身心障礙者但"},{"start":270.089,"end":291.526,"text":"因為他未成年啊所以這樣子有身心障礙未成年者的家庭反而就變成不能來做我們現在的社宅申請人我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長請問內政部是否可參考我的建議在這一條你們的態度如何"},{"start":293.179,"end":317.247,"text":"跟委員報告啦,我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的啦是所以這個部分是不是,因為這個原始定義是在跟衛福部討論的是那既然這個中間或許執行上有產生這樣的一個問題這部分是不是,我們是建議先讓我們可以跟衛福部直接透過行政的協商把這一塊直接納進去會更容易,不一定要立法好"},{"start":318.067,"end":334.189,"text":"如果是這樣子的話我是建議這個部分因為它是明確規定這個是可以有文字修正的空間因為它本來就已經是列在法律裡面是入法的樣態但因為我們保障的家庭所以我認為這條有修法的空間"},{"start":334.93,"end":364.45,"text":"好沒有關係因為我們今天只有詢答要到下一次的真正修法之前我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論我們在修法的程序當中可以直接就這個來做這個條文做討論這是第一個第二個的話呢我上次有質詢過我們設宅大概是三年一起然後得續住一次嘛再接續申請一次好可是我們進去之後常常是年輕人年輕的夫妻那他們可能有了小朋友小朋友"},{"start":365.351,"end":382.629,"text":"長大剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段那麼在入小學的階段我戶籍在哪裡就會非常非常的牽涉到你實際居住地碼然後你的申請學校是哪一間這就是入學規定的狀況"},{"start":383.45,"end":403.219,"text":"那當然也還有在小學的過程當中如果你換了居住地址了之後是否有要轉學的部分當然那是另外一件事情但剛剛在入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候所以我曾經提出考慮就是詢問這個內政部"},{"start":405.22,"end":434.487,"text":"在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮您的意見如何跟我們報告的確啦因為在很多家庭來講在面臨學齡尤其學齡到了他必須要有準備入學的這樣一個狀態下那這個的確是對於社宅的條件他可能會有更強烈的需求包含他可能連房型他都有不一樣的需求"},{"start":435.227,"end":453.121,"text":"對那但是因為所現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多那如果就升多周少嘛就是目前的狀況嘛持續延長就會讓下一輪的會變少沒有錯啊但是在行政措施上當然第二個也有可能他要考慮學區對他也可能必須要搬離"},{"start":453.601,"end":468.93,"text":"因為剛好就是我們最卡關的時候那個就是在決定要唸哪一間小學的時候所以有關這一點我們也參考了委員大家的一個建議啦就是說針對這一個婚育家尤其是育有未成年子女的家庭的部分那這個部分呢我們會"},{"start":470.798,"end":497.517,"text":"我們是比較目前朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定的數量的時候我們是不是來考慮來訂定相關的一個專案的一個政策來協助這些育有未成年家庭的他能夠更安定那不一定是在社宅裡面他可能在其他租金補貼或什麼他享有更好的這個照顧讓他能夠放心的即便我是要挑學區我不住社宅了我還是可以"},{"start":497.937,"end":514.994,"text":"找到適合的房子那得到政府更多的補助我了解你也注意到這個問題我這樣可以感受到一你有注意到這個問題二你也有在想對策啦但我們因為詢答的時間就是這麼短可能沒有辦法講得很清楚所以我想這個用這兩個題目來跟內政部這邊交換意見的其實是"},{"start":518.758,"end":535.278,"text":"社宅大家都喜歡因為他照顧到了經濟弱勢那或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群好大家都喜歡的狀況下社宅現在正在興建但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者"},{"start":535.979,"end":564.105,"text":"所以當然就會產生了很多的從入住條件開始一直到續住條件還有中間的租金等等這一些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見可是我必須說如果是我們用這樣的一部法律來規定的話就必須要注意到法是強制到社會的每一個面向每一個地理位置每一個溫層不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了所以我注意到剛剛署長"},{"start":565.425,"end":587.891,"text":"部長有提到你提到了行政措施這個概念也就是說在我的觀察來講因為問題太多太細太繁雜了所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面需要為行政行政措施保留一個空間這是你剛剛的意思嗎我解讀起來是這樣"},{"start":588.371,"end":606.505,"text":"各位委員包括我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法行政措施上能夠針對每個時期不同的需求我們去做一些彈性的一個修正那但是因為立法是比較剛性的一旦做了就是在一定的期間變成全國通他不能隨意更動"},{"start":607.025,"end":622.705,"text":"好 那署長因為我們已經討論多次不只是在這個質詢台上面啦所以那我今天具體的要求是不是可以請部長署長這邊喔我們社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間了吧現在大概是已經六年了六年剛好就是第一輪"},{"start":623.286,"end":641.151,"text":"第一輪的這個入住社宅的在就是包括三年加三年續住的這樣叫做第一輪嘛剛好完成嘛所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討的階段你是不是能夠把這一個第一輪完成的狀況到底發生了哪一些問題然後你現在提出的哪一些對策是不是可以列舉並且"},{"start":643.152,"end":671.624,"text":"並且我是強烈的建議把各縣市政府就是六都因為六都有時候是自己興建的會有自己的規定那六都以外的大概是中央代為興建所以會有很多不同的規定同一個問題會有不同的規定比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況還有租金也會不太一樣的狀況那是不是可以請你把這些所有目前的社會住宅的相關規定以及它的優劣意見整理列表"},{"start":672.684,"end":699.217,"text":"讓我們在修法的過程中一起來討論哪一些是繼續保留行政措施讓它有彈性有空間甚至可以因地制宜縣市不同有不同的規定那哪一些又是覺得已經都這個實施下來都很棒應該要調整那我們就讓它剛性入法全國統一也不會優惠措施不一樣我想提這個建議不曉得部長署長覺得如何其實感謝 感謝委員其實我們"},{"start":700.57,"end":721.734,"text":"委員提這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的應該要趁著這一輪已經做已經租完一輪了然後把所有的問題都彙整那我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平台的會議那我們這就把它從現在就開始去收集這些議題在大平台會議去討論把它聚焦以後"},{"start":722.294,"end":743.152,"text":"那其實都可以提供給大院裡面這邊我是希望這個資料可以盡快提出因為如果我們要修法的話一定是要有這份的資料主席你站起來的話這樣就沒意思了你不要亂動啊我自己說謝謝就好我有看時間啊好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝蘇巧慧委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時5分）謝謝主席。主席，我覺得主持議事當然是讓每個人暢所欲言，不過我是建議可以控制一下時間，剛剛前一位可能相對講久了一點，我們不希望每個人都這麼久，如果等一下有發言比較長的話，主席，我想公平對待是比較好一點。"],["主席：會，我們該講的就讓大家講，該提醒的時候……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但重複的就不用再一直重複了嘛，對不對？"],["主席：對啦，提醒……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！今天早上我是第二個簽到的，其他委員其實是簽錯格子，我想說好心讓給他，結果是這樣，我一等多等了快要20分鐘，這實在是……"],["主席：下次不換。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，下次不換了。","我們請部長跟署長。"],["主席：部長跟署長有請。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，部長跟署長，我覺得每個委員都一樣大，所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況，我們當然無可厚非，不過，身為一個第3屆的區域委員服務新北市要十年了，我想在這幾年當中陪著我們行政部門，不敢說臺灣，至少新北市各地我們興建了社會住宅，光是我服務的樹林、鶯歌，我們就有鶯歌安居，樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建。我可以看到，其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民、里鄰長，大家都組團、組隊非常關心到現場去看。其實我看到的是，我們每個人都充分地對在地即將成為鄰居的這一棟大社宅，未來要搬進來的住戶、想像的狀況跟公共的空間，大家都熱烈討論啊！而且社宅要到底要保留多少成分拿來做公共建設，其實也有跟周邊居民、跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府都有非常多的討論。署長，我記得很多次都是你親自主持的，你要不要跟我們簡單說明一下，在做地方的社宅規劃的時候，到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府共同決定、設計，這一棟社會住宅要有什麼樣的規模以及設備？"],["吳署長欣修：是，跟委員報告，其實我們決定選擇一個地方的時候，第一個，一定會跟當地的縣市政府先討論……"],["蘇委員巧慧：大概次數都多少次？"],["吳署長欣修：大概至少6、7次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！參與的人呢？"],["吳署長欣修：決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會，先了解民眾對我們這塊基地的一些看法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：參與公聽會的是哪一些人？"],["吳署長欣修：就是在地的里民，而且含周圍可能30個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：甚至包含在地民代嘛！所以我才有身分可以進去。"],["吳署長欣修：民代會進去，還有周圍都會進去討論。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我們從頭跟到尾，光是同樣的公共空間要有托育，還是托老，還是里民活動中心的替代等等，每一個都引起大家非常多的討論，如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在那棟建物裡面，那麼那棟建物就已經不是社會住宅了，所以你必須要取捨，取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論，本來就是這個樣子的。我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到什麼樣的東西，我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下，看委員看得懂、看不懂，能不能夠跟在地平常有連結，我覺得你可能要注意這個部分，不然每個人的經驗不太一樣，也許他沒有跟著一棟社宅成長，這樣的話可能會比較有誤會，不能理解你的資料，這個你可以再討論一下。","我們另外再來看一下，我在提案說明的部分有說到，我們的社會住宅既然是為了要讓國民居住於適宜之住宅且有尊嚴，所以在第四條列舉了13類經濟及社會弱勢者的身分，其中一類是身心障礙者。我在這裡發現的狀況是，因為未成年人是不能來申請社宅的，所以第七類別──身心障礙者，他可以申請，那表示他是成年的。如果我的家庭當中的未成年子女是身心障礙者，但因為他未成年，所以有未成年身心障礙者的家庭反而就變成不能作為現在的社宅申請人。我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的，所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長，請問內政部是否可以參考我的建議？在這一條你們的態度如何？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的，因為這個原始定義是跟衛福部討論的，既然在執行上或許有產生這樣的一個問題，這個部分我們是建議，先讓我們跟衛福部透過行政協商，把這一塊直接納進去會更容易，不一定要立法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，如果是這樣子的話，我是建議，這個部分是明確規定，這個可以有文字修正的空間，因為它本來就已經列在法律裡面，是入法的樣態，但因為我們保障的是家庭，所以我認為這條有修法的空間。沒有關係，因為我們今天只有詢答，到下一次真正修法之前，我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論，我們在修法的程序當中，可以直接就這個條文討論，這是第一個。","第二個，我上次有質詢過，我們的社宅大概是3年一期，得續住一次、再接續申請一次，可是進去的人常常是年輕人、年輕的夫妻，他們可能有了小朋友，小朋友長大，剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段，在入小學的階段，他的戶籍在哪裡就會涉及實際居住地可以申請的學校是哪一間，這就是入學規定的狀況。當然，還有在小學的過程當中，如果你換了居住地址之後是否有要轉學，當然那是另外一件事情，但剛剛提到入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候，所以我曾經詢問內政部，在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況，他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮，您的意見如何？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，的確啦！因為對很多家庭來講，面臨學齡到了，他必須要準備入學的狀態下，對於社宅的條件可能會有更強烈的需求，可能連對房型都有不一樣的需求。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["吳署長欣修：但是現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多，如果……"],["蘇委員巧慧：僧多粥少就是目前的狀況嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：所以如果持續延長，就會讓下一輪的變少……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯啊！"],["吳署長欣修：但是在行政措施上，當然第二個也有可能因為他要考慮學區，他也可能必須要搬離。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為剛好就是最卡關的時候，那個就是在決定要念哪一所小學的時候。"],["吳署長欣修：有關這一點我們也參考了委員們的建議，針對婚育家庭，尤其是育有未成年子女家庭的部分，我們目前是比較朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定數量的時候，我們是不是考慮訂定一個相關的專案政策，協助這些育有未成年子女的家庭，讓他能夠更安定，不一定是在社宅裡面，可能在其他租金補貼或其他部分讓他享有更好的照顧，讓他能夠放心。即便他要挑學區，不住社宅了，還是可以找到適合的房子，得到政府更多的補助，這樣的話我們也來……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我了解你也注意到這個問題，我可以感受到，一、你有注意到這個問題；二、你也有在想對策。但因為詢答的時間就是這麼短，可能沒有辦法講得很清楚，所以我想用這兩個題目跟內政部交換意見的其實是，社宅大家都喜歡，因為它照顧到經濟弱勢，或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群。在大家都喜歡的狀況下，社宅現在正在興建，但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者，所以當然就會產生很多的意見，從入住條件開始，一直到續住條件，還有中間的租金等等，這一些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見。可是我必須說，如果我們用這樣的一部法律規定的話就必須要注意到，法是強制到社會的每一個面向、每一個地理位置、每一個溫層，不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了。我注意到剛剛署長、部長也有提到行政措施這個概念，也就是說，在我的觀察來講，因為問題太多、太細、太繁雜了，所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面，需要為行政措施保留一個空間？這是你剛剛的意思嗎？我解讀起來是這樣。"],["吳署長欣修：對，跟委員報告，我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法，行政措施能夠針對每個時期不同的需求，我們去做一些彈性的修正。但是因為立法是比較剛性的，一旦做了，在一定的期間就是變成全國通用，它不能隨意更動。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，因為我們已經討論多次，不只是在這個質詢臺上面，所以我今天具體的要求，是不是可以請部長、署長，我們的社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間，現在大概是多久？"],["吳署長欣修：已經6年了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：6年剛好……"],["吳署長欣修：就是第一輪入住社宅的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：就是包括3年，加3年續住的，這樣叫做第一輪，剛好完成，所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討階段，你是不是能夠把第一輪的狀況，到底發生了哪一些問題、你現在提出了哪一些對策都列舉出來？我是強烈的建議，把各縣市政府……因為六都有時候是自己興建的，會有自己的規定；六都以外的大概就是中央代為興建，所以對於同一個問題會有很多不同的規定。比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況，還有租金也有不太一樣的狀況。是不是可以請你把目前這些所有社會住宅的相關規定，以及它的優劣意見整理列表，讓我們在修法的過程中一起討論，哪一些是繼續保留行政措施，讓它有彈性、有空間，甚至可以因地制宜，依縣市不同有不同的規定；哪一些又覺得實施下來已經都很棒，應該要調整，那我們就讓它剛性入法，全國統一，也不會優惠措施不一樣，我想提這個建議，不曉得部長、署長覺得如何？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實委員提的這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的，應該要趁著這一輪已經租完一輪了，把所有的問題都彙整。我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平臺會議，我們從現在就開始去蒐集這些議題，在大平臺會議去討論，把它聚焦以後，其實都可以提供給大院參考。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我是希望這個資料可以儘快提出，因為如果我們要修法的話，一定是要有這份資料。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主席站起來的話，這樣就沒意思了，你不要亂動，我自己說謝謝就好，我有看時間。謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}}