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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T10:18:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:29:59+08:00","duration":703,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160618","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160618","tool":"pyannote","id":"160618-pyannote"},"job_id":"nfpJgzCL1V86P3ch","queued_at":"2025-04-24 12:30:04","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2025-04-24 12:30:44","msg":"downloading 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{\"start\": 177.203, \"end\": 191.818, \"text\": \"那就是剛剛我們所說的因為全國有22個縣市那我們如果可以在行政措施上做這個滾動式的調整然後不要用剛性的入法的條件因為我們剛性入法的條件到目前為止是40%的這個弱勢戶是110年修到現在是3年的時間\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 177.203, \"end\": 177.383, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 177.383, \"end\": 177.484, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 177.484, \"end\": 177.864, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 177.864, \"end\": 178.124, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 178.124, \"end\": 178.605, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 178.605, \"end\": 178.745, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 178.745, \"end\": 179.065, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 179.065, \"end\": 179.426, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 179.426, \"end\": 180.326, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": 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\"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 698.78, \"end\": 699.68, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 699.68, \"end\": 699.76, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 699.76, \"end\": 699.78, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 699.78, \"end\": 699.8, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 699.8, \"end\": 699.86, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"宏\", \"start\": 699.86, \"end\": 700.08, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"祿\"}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 700.08, \"end\": 700.28, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 700.28, \"end\": 700.3, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,239 --> 00:00:24,806\n好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉部長跟吳署長劉部長吳署長有請好謝謝部長跟署長那先要討論的是這個住宅法的修法那其中有一條比較重要的就是第四條就是關於一些經濟總家庭收入平均比較這個\n\n2\n00:00:26,366 --> 00:00:47,285\n这个比较没有符合到主管机关的一个标准者就是经济状况比较稍微比较差一点的这些的家庭那现在有个修法的里面的一个款里面应该是第二项第二款里面说是不是可以考虑把这个未有未成年子女两人\n\n3\n00:00:48,853 --> 00:01:10,025\n以上把它改成育有未成年子女的這個部分來去做一個修法的動作那我們其實現在可以看到當然是我們委員立法有很多委員想說提供提出這樣的修法就是針對現在少子女化的一些問題來去做解決那我們可以看到新北市的社宅在今年的114年1月1號其實他也有一個新的規定就是\n\n4\n00:01:10,985 --> 00:01:33,624\n新北市政府決定社會住宅招租比例中匡列10%的名額提供給育有兩名子女上的家庭做申請而且來採收簽字其實就是說不管是在地方他也是針對這個有未成年子女的部分來去做一個比較闊讓他可以比較多人的一些的使用那我們現在在中央的修法是說\n\n5\n00:01:34,284 --> 00:01:52,910\n是不是說因為現在可能少子女化的問題其實現在根據統計一個家庭可能生育的小孩子不到一個人所以這樣子的修法其實我們希望說這個內政部是可以做支持的一個動作可是沒有想到說內政部今天提出來的報告是說認為你們有你們的立場是\n\n6\n00:01:53,650 --> 00:02:20,632\n希望不予修訂喔那所以我剛也特別請教衛福部的一個問題是說現在來講是不是像我們符合這條這個住宅法第4條預有未成年子女兩人以上者的人數其實是越來越少的所以如果把它改成只有預有未成年子女的部分上其實是不會有任何的排擠效果所以是不是有這樣的狀況所以我剛有請衛福部來說明說這樣的人數是不是沒有太大的影響\n\n7\n00:02:21,252 --> 00:02:32,777\n所以內政部是不是可以來協助不管在從新北市這樣子幫助少女俗女化的部分中央的部分是內政部可以來協助說也來支持這樣的這樣子的版本\n\n8\n00:02:34,315 --> 00:02:56,283\n有關那個剛剛委員所提問的部分我想先綜合跟委員講一下新北市政府他提出遇有這個未成年子女兩人以上那表示說他有其他的母法的支撐所以他在行政措施上自己就開放了沒錯沒錯那他可以創業的人數可能有的範圍更多嗎所以因為中央有修法地方也可以徵召嗎\n\n9\n00:02:57,203 --> 00:03:11,818\n那就是剛剛我們所說的因為全國有22個縣市那我們如果可以在行政措施上做這個滾動式的調整然後不要用剛性的入法的條件因為我們剛性入法的條件到目前為止是40%的這個弱勢戶是110年修到現在是3年的時間\n\n10\n00:03:16,022 --> 00:03:30,405\n那這個部分呢也就是剛剛所說的其實它並不違反就是新北市政府或台北市政府或是桃園市政府他們有自己的一個入住的條件申請的條件那其實都不違反住宅法沒錯因為它不能違反嘛那這樣的狀況就是我們剛剛所說的現在的那個社會住宅的興建完成入住的量還沒有達到一定規模剛剛我們署長有跟大院報告過現在剛好這個六年的時間剛好到一輪的話是不是我們在收整\n\n11\n00:03:44,748 --> 00:04:01,268\n其他縣市政府對這些方面的意見的時候呢我們再來統一這樣子我們會更審慎而不是衝速就入卡所以謝謝部長的回應所以我的意思是說因為現在台灣少子化的問題嘛所以育有未成年子女兩人以上的人數是不是整個家庭人數越來越少\n\n12\n00:04:02,169 --> 00:04:30,808\n所以如果說把它改成育有未成年之餘就變成說一個人也可以的話其實人數的部分是越從過去以來人數就這樣的家庭越來越少嘛所以如果我們做一個修法的動作的時候其實可以讓更多的比如說已經收入已經在政府低於某一個層級以下的這些家庭他不會說越來人申請的總量會越來越少所以就是說修法完了以後就可以跟內政部跟衛福部討論一下如果人數的沒有差距太多的時候其實我覺得可以支持修法好不好拜託署長\n\n13\n00:04:31,508 --> 00:04:55,211\n可以把這個資料稍微統計一下對跟委員報告我想這個後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論就是說現在有一輪出來了那其實因為這會跟未來社宅的興建的房型對因為我就有統計如果要那的話連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做一些大幅的更動所以我才會說必須要透過一個統整第二個呢因為社宅興建的數量\n\n14\n00:04:56,092 --> 00:05:16,346\n沒有辦法快速的成長那所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊來提升意願也是一個做法所以這個會需要整個政策上的一個整合那整合應該有完整的一個配套而不會說只有反映在單一的興建設宅的這一塊是這個意思那後續我們會後再討論那第二個還是我比較請教就是就現在內政部整個的\n\n15\n00:05:21,509 --> 00:05:46,386\n的概念來講其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅的興建以及包租代管以及租金補貼整體是含在整個的範圍裡面可是我之前一直在討論的點就是說租金大家希望說租金市場越來越透明那這次當然也有提說出來說你們會依照租屋補貼的數字統一去統整說整個租金的整個市場的價格可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼的即時性\n\n16\n00:05:46,846 --> 00:05:58,392\n而且地域性而受到限制所以至於上次有提到請教的一個點就是說租金補貼的數量越來越多可是相對來講租金申報的比例相對來講越來越低這個問題所以當時我們要開始討論是說像我現在有實價登錄房屋買賣的實價登錄\n\n17\n00:06:03,055 --> 00:06:25,562\n要求買賣雙方要付申報的義務那有沒有可能租金租屋補貼的部分未來也有可能比照這個我們的買賣的實價登錄所以是房客還是房東你們有沒有這樣演繹的部分說如果未來可以做申報的話租金租屋市場可能越來越透明而不是有這個政府單位在做後續的統整再來公佈\n\n18\n00:06:27,162 --> 00:06:41,578\n那個也跟委員報告一下這個我們也大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量第一個部分的話有關於租金補貼的民眾其實他不是專業的一個人士所以你要求他去填那些資料可能他資料的\n\n19\n00:06:42,499 --> 00:07:07,845\n填的部分可能正確性就會有問題這是政府要輔導就像之前那個實價登錄也是政府輔導一陣子了嘛好不好那第二個部分的話其實我們租金補貼是要協助民眾來做一個租屋那其實民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關的資料去做揭露以至於他不願意來做一個申請這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些協助的門櫃不過現在應該應該是說現在都是\n\n20\n00:07:10,887 --> 00:07:25,479\n請這個租賃業者來去做實價登錄的一個部分如果租金補貼的話就不會經過業者了解就是說其實現在有一個規定就是有這個申報的一個動作就是這個租賃業者來做申報的一個動作嘛\n\n21\n00:07:26,139 --> 00:07:53,047\n所以就是說我認為政府來這邊部分的說我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做所以你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的一個逐步性的一個措施以及辦法就供你們做參考好不好那個部分的話有關於租金統計的部分我們現在半年固定以後半年也會以後半年都會有一次嗎那當然是希望說可以越平凡是越好區域性也可以越好就是一個區一個區為主\n\n22\n00:07:54,707 --> 00:08:13,110\n好那第三個我還是要請教就是民眾所如果有需要社會住宅就是新建社會住宅的這個民眾所長期還是要請教署長的問題就是說現在這其實排隊還是排非常的久那當然剛剛有提到的一個問題是說就是因為現在數量還是不夠多嘛\n\n23\n00:08:13,430 --> 00:08:29,009\n那我現在請教署長是不是有重複登記因為就我了解如果你現在在入住社會住宅的時候其實你還是可以依照你的需求登記不同的社會住宅比如說我未來有依照我的戶籍或者我的學區或者我自己本身的需求可以登記其他社會住宅\n\n24\n00:08:31,472 --> 00:08:55,036\n這個部分這個國土署後面這部有沒有一個想法說有沒有一個限制就是說我是所有都可以登記還是說我只能限制登記兩三個而不會造成大家每次在領這個號碼牌的時候都是兩三百號兩三百號那個心情會覺得說好像沒有完全看不到一個盡頭那我也認識很多的朋友其實抽社會住宅了以後其實六七年他都抽不到新的社會住宅等等的一個問題那是不是請署長有沒有重複的問題其實對社宅來講因為\n\n25\n00:08:59,057 --> 00:09:03,742\n對很多民眾來講它可能是一個生活圈的概念也就是說或許我住在板橋\n\n26\n00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:32,732\n但是呢他覺得他上班的地方我可能在新莊那我可能在中和所以他可能在選的時候他就會覺得那既然我有我是以生活圈的概念去他可能這幾個區他都去挑那這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他因為從生活圈的概念他是正確的那這也是我們認為說為什麼去主張一個大平台大家都去填反而會造成這個數量是暴增的沒錯就是數量會讓人家覺得有點暴增到會覺得你更難抽\n\n27\n00:09:33,212 --> 00:09:54,581\n那所以才會說我們為什麼在這一方面會很審慎的要繼續評估也就是說因為你很難克服那個地域性它的一個需求那也跟剛剛也有委員提到還有學區的問題有些還會為了學區再特別去加抽好那署長實際的關係就是個問題因為本席的選區在中和啊也常常跟署長會跟這個住宿中心開會那因為我們有11個社會住宅\n\n28\n00:09:58,222 --> 00:10:15,619\n本席是說我大膽做一個建議因為社會自然興建過去可能就是一些國有地可能在做臨時做停車場或是一些綠地的一些部分本席之前都有需要都是有提說其實你們都做得很好就是會有一些比如說這個讓周邊的民眾比如說\n\n29\n00:10:17,180 --> 00:10:32,808\n長照日照或托嬰托幼中心或是李明的共享空間我覺得都很好那可是因為人數在這個空間裡面的人變多了停車需求會變得更高那所以我在想說社會住宅是不是有有可以就是規定說一定的比例\n\n30\n00:10:33,508 --> 00:10:58,924\n就地下室的停車位一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾來使用比如說5%、10%因為我相信你們在做社會住宅規劃的時候一定常常開會的時候都會有討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題你們有沒有可能研議說我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例那邊有沒有在研議說多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民來去做租用\n\n31\n00:10:59,244 --> 00:11:03,024\n然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的一個一個到來\n\n32\n00:11:04,670 --> 00:11:30,956\n的這個建議啦因為其實各地都有類似啦那其實現在的狀況只是因為說涉及到管理問題那所以過去也有曾經有這樣的案例但是事實上後續的管理呃衍生了新的糾紛啦那所以這個部分我們也會委員的建議我想我們會持續來討論尤其是針對某一些個案他如果真的周圍在地這個需求非常強但是實務上要怎麼去處理我想我們都會\n\n33\n00:11:31,676 --> 00:11:40,300\n個案跟住戶中心再來討論看怎麼解決這類問題拜託署長以及住戶中心大家都很辛苦謝謝大家謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝張志仁委員的質詢下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6239\t24806\t好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉部長跟吳署長劉部長吳署長有請好謝謝部長跟署長那先要討論的是這個住宅法的修法那其中有一條比較重要的就是第四條就是關於一些經濟總家庭收入平均比較這個\n26366\t47285\t这个比较没有符合到主管机关的一个标准者就是经济状况比较稍微比较差一点的这些的家庭那现在有个修法的里面的一个款里面应该是第二项第二款里面说是不是可以考虑把这个未有未成年子女两人\n48853\t70025\t以上把它改成育有未成年子女的這個部分來去做一個修法的動作那我們其實現在可以看到當然是我們委員立法有很多委員想說提供提出這樣的修法就是針對現在少子女化的一些問題來去做解決那我們可以看到新北市的社宅在今年的114年1月1號其實他也有一個新的規定就是\n70985\t93624\t新北市政府決定社會住宅招租比例中匡列10%的名額提供給育有兩名子女上的家庭做申請而且來採收簽字其實就是說不管是在地方他也是針對這個有未成年子女的部分來去做一個比較闊讓他可以比較多人的一些的使用那我們現在在中央的修法是說\n94284\t112910\t是不是說因為現在可能少子女化的問題其實現在根據統計一個家庭可能生育的小孩子不到一個人所以這樣子的修法其實我們希望說這個內政部是可以做支持的一個動作可是沒有想到說內政部今天提出來的報告是說認為你們有你們的立場是\n113650\t140632\t希望不予修訂喔那所以我剛也特別請教衛福部的一個問題是說現在來講是不是像我們符合這條這個住宅法第4條預有未成年子女兩人以上者的人數其實是越來越少的所以如果把它改成只有預有未成年子女的部分上其實是不會有任何的排擠效果所以是不是有這樣的狀況所以我剛有請衛福部來說明說這樣的人數是不是沒有太大的影響\n141252\t152777\t所以內政部是不是可以來協助不管在從新北市這樣子幫助少女俗女化的部分中央的部分是內政部可以來協助說也來支持這樣的這樣子的版本\n154315\t176283\t有關那個剛剛委員所提問的部分我想先綜合跟委員講一下新北市政府他提出遇有這個未成年子女兩人以上那表示說他有其他的母法的支撐所以他在行政措施上自己就開放了沒錯沒錯那他可以創業的人數可能有的範圍更多嗎所以因為中央有修法地方也可以徵召嗎\n177203\t191818\t那就是剛剛我們所說的因為全國有22個縣市那我們如果可以在行政措施上做這個滾動式的調整然後不要用剛性的入法的條件因為我們剛性入法的條件到目前為止是40%的這個弱勢戶是110年修到現在是3年的時間\n196022\t210405\t那這個部分呢也就是剛剛所說的其實它並不違反就是新北市政府或台北市政府或是桃園市政府他們有自己的一個入住的條件申請的條件那其實都不違反住宅法沒錯因為它不能違反嘛那這樣的狀況就是我們剛剛所說的現在的那個社會住宅的興建完成入住的量還沒有達到一定規模剛剛我們署長有跟大院報告過現在剛好這個六年的時間剛好到一輪的話是不是我們在收整\n224748\t241268\t其他縣市政府對這些方面的意見的時候呢我們再來統一這樣子我們會更審慎而不是衝速就入卡所以謝謝部長的回應所以我的意思是說因為現在台灣少子化的問題嘛所以育有未成年子女兩人以上的人數是不是整個家庭人數越來越少\n242169\t270808\t所以如果說把它改成育有未成年之餘就變成說一個人也可以的話其實人數的部分是越從過去以來人數就這樣的家庭越來越少嘛所以如果我們做一個修法的動作的時候其實可以讓更多的比如說已經收入已經在政府低於某一個層級以下的這些家庭他不會說越來人申請的總量會越來越少所以就是說修法完了以後就可以跟內政部跟衛福部討論一下如果人數的沒有差距太多的時候其實我覺得可以支持修法好不好 拜託署長\n271508\t295211\t可以把這個資料稍微統計一下對跟委員報告我想這個後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論就是說現在有一輪出來了那其實因為這會跟未來社宅的興建的房型對因為我就有統計如果要那的話連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做一些大幅的更動所以我才會說必須要透過一個統整第二個呢因為社宅興建的數量\n296092\t316346\t沒有辦法快速的成長那所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊來提升意願也是一個做法所以這個會需要整個政策上的一個整合那整合應該有完整的一個配套而不會說只有反映在單一的興建設宅的這一塊是這個意思那後續我們會後再討論那第二個還是我比較請教就是就現在內政部整個的\n321509\t346386\t的概念來講其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅的興建以及包租代管以及租金補貼整體是含在整個的範圍裡面可是我之前一直在討論的點就是說租金大家希望說租金市場越來越透明那這次當然也有提說出來說你們會依照租屋補貼的數字統一去統整說整個租金的整個市場的價格可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼的即時性\n346846\t358392\t而且地域性而受到限制所以至於上次有提到請教的一個點就是說租金補貼的數量越來越多可是相對來講租金申報的比例相對來講越來越低這個問題所以當時我們要開始討論是說像我現在有實價登錄房屋買賣的實價登錄\n363055\t385562\t要求買賣雙方要付申報的義務那有沒有可能租金租屋補貼的部分未來也有可能比照這個我們的買賣的實價登錄所以是房客還是房東你們有沒有這樣演繹的部分說如果未來可以做申報的話租金租屋市場可能越來越透明而不是有這個政府單位在做後續的統整再來公佈\n387162\t401578\t那個也跟委員報告一下這個我們也大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量第一個部分的話有關於租金補貼的民眾其實他不是專業的一個人士所以你要求他去填那些資料可能他資料的\n402499\t427845\t填的部分可能正確性就會有問題這是政府要輔導就像之前那個實價登錄也是政府輔導一陣子了嘛好不好那第二個部分的話其實我們租金補貼是要協助民眾來做一個租屋那其實民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關的資料去做揭露以至於他不願意來做一個申請這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些協助的門櫃不過現在應該應該是說現在都是\n430887\t445479\t請這個租賃業者來去做實價登錄的一個部分如果租金補貼的話就不會經過業者了解就是說其實現在有一個規定就是有這個申報的一個動作就是這個租賃業者來做申報的一個動作嘛\n446139\t473047\t所以就是說我認為政府來這邊部分的說我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做所以你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的一個逐步性的一個措施以及辦法就供你們做參考好不好那個部分的話有關於租金統計的部分我們現在半年固定以後半年也會以後半年都會有一次嗎那當然是希望說可以越平凡是越好區域性也可以越好就是一個區一個區為主\n474707\t493110\t好那第三個我還是要請教就是民眾所如果有需要社會住宅就是新建社會住宅的這個民眾所長期還是要請教署長的問題就是說現在這其實排隊還是排非常的久那當然剛剛有提到的一個問題是說就是因為現在數量還是不夠多嘛\n493430\t509009\t那我現在請教署長是不是有重複登記因為就我了解如果你現在在入住社會住宅的時候其實你還是可以依照你的需求登記不同的社會住宅比如說我未來有依照我的戶籍或者我的學區或者我自己本身的需求可以登記其他社會住宅\n511472\t535036\t這個部分這個國土署後面這部有沒有一個想法說有沒有一個限制就是說我是所有都可以登記還是說我只能限制登記兩三個而不會造成大家每次在領這個號碼牌的時候都是兩三百號兩三百號那個心情會覺得說好像沒有完全看不到一個盡頭那我也認識很多的朋友其實抽社會住宅了以後其實六七年他都抽不到新的社會住宅等等的一個問題那是不是請署長有沒有重複的問題其實對社宅來講因為\n539057\t543742\t對很多民眾來講它可能是一個生活圈的概念也就是說或許我住在板橋\n544690\t572732\t但是呢他覺得他上班的地方我可能在新莊那我可能在中和所以他可能在選的時候他就會覺得那既然我有我是以生活圈的概念去他可能這幾個區他都去挑那這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他因為從生活圈的概念他是正確的那這也是我們認為說為什麼去主張一個大平台大家都去填反而會造成這個數量是暴增的沒錯就是數量會讓人家覺得有點暴增到會覺得你更難抽\n573212\t594581\t那所以才會說我們為什麼在這一方面會很審慎的要繼續評估也就是說因為你很難克服那個地域性它的一個需求那也跟剛剛也有委員提到還有學區的問題有些還會為了學區再特別去加抽好那署長實際的關係就是個問題因為本席的選區在中和啊也常常跟署長會跟這個住宿中心開會那因為我們有11個社會住宅\n598222\t615619\t本席是說我大膽做一個建議因為社會自然興建過去可能就是一些國有地可能在做臨時做停車場或是一些綠地的一些部分本席之前都有需要都是有提說其實你們都做得很好就是會有一些比如說這個讓周邊的民眾比如說\n617180\t632808\t長照日照或托嬰托幼中心或是李明的共享空間我覺得都很好那可是因為人數在這個空間裡面的人變多了停車需求會變得更高那所以我在想說社會住宅是不是有有可以就是規定說一定的比例\n633508\t658924\t就地下室的停車位一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾來使用比如說5%、10%因為我相信你們在做社會住宅規劃的時候一定常常開會的時候都會有討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題你們有沒有可能研議說我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例那邊有沒有在研議說多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民來去做租用\n659244\t663024\t然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的一個一個到來\n664670\t690956\t的這個建議啦因為其實各地都有類似啦那其實現在的狀況只是因為說涉及到管理問題那所以過去也有曾經有這樣的案例但是事實上後續的管理呃衍生了新的糾紛啦那所以這個部分我們也會委員的建議我想我們會持續來討論尤其是針對某一些個案他如果真的周圍在地這個需求非常強但是實務上要怎麼去處理我想我們都會\n691676\t700300\t個案跟住戶中心再來討論看怎麼解決這類問題拜託署長以及住戶中心大家都很辛苦謝謝大家謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝張志仁委員的質詢下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢\n","txt":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉部長跟吳署長劉部長吳署長有請好謝謝部長跟署長那先要討論的是這個住宅法的修法那其中有一條比較重要的就是第四條就是關於一些經濟總家庭收入平均比較這個\n这个比较没有符合到主管机关的一个标准者就是经济状况比较稍微比较差一点的这些的家庭那现在有个修法的里面的一个款里面应该是第二项第二款里面说是不是可以考虑把这个未有未成年子女两人\n以上把它改成育有未成年子女的這個部分來去做一個修法的動作那我們其實現在可以看到當然是我們委員立法有很多委員想說提供提出這樣的修法就是針對現在少子女化的一些問題來去做解決那我們可以看到新北市的社宅在今年的114年1月1號其實他也有一個新的規定就是\n新北市政府決定社會住宅招租比例中匡列10%的名額提供給育有兩名子女上的家庭做申請而且來採收簽字其實就是說不管是在地方他也是針對這個有未成年子女的部分來去做一個比較闊讓他可以比較多人的一些的使用那我們現在在中央的修法是說\n是不是說因為現在可能少子女化的問題其實現在根據統計一個家庭可能生育的小孩子不到一個人所以這樣子的修法其實我們希望說這個內政部是可以做支持的一個動作可是沒有想到說內政部今天提出來的報告是說認為你們有你們的立場是\n希望不予修訂喔那所以我剛也特別請教衛福部的一個問題是說現在來講是不是像我們符合這條這個住宅法第4條預有未成年子女兩人以上者的人數其實是越來越少的所以如果把它改成只有預有未成年子女的部分上其實是不會有任何的排擠效果所以是不是有這樣的狀況所以我剛有請衛福部來說明說這樣的人數是不是沒有太大的影響\n所以內政部是不是可以來協助不管在從新北市這樣子幫助少女俗女化的部分中央的部分是內政部可以來協助說也來支持這樣的這樣子的版本\n有關那個剛剛委員所提問的部分我想先綜合跟委員講一下新北市政府他提出遇有這個未成年子女兩人以上那表示說他有其他的母法的支撐所以他在行政措施上自己就開放了沒錯沒錯那他可以創業的人數可能有的範圍更多嗎所以因為中央有修法地方也可以徵召嗎\n那就是剛剛我們所說的因為全國有22個縣市那我們如果可以在行政措施上做這個滾動式的調整然後不要用剛性的入法的條件因為我們剛性入法的條件到目前為止是40%的這個弱勢戶是110年修到現在是3年的時間\n那這個部分呢也就是剛剛所說的其實它並不違反就是新北市政府或台北市政府或是桃園市政府他們有自己的一個入住的條件申請的條件那其實都不違反住宅法沒錯因為它不能違反嘛那這樣的狀況就是我們剛剛所說的現在的那個社會住宅的興建完成入住的量還沒有達到一定規模剛剛我們署長有跟大院報告過現在剛好這個六年的時間剛好到一輪的話是不是我們在收整\n其他縣市政府對這些方面的意見的時候呢我們再來統一這樣子我們會更審慎而不是衝速就入卡所以謝謝部長的回應所以我的意思是說因為現在台灣少子化的問題嘛所以育有未成年子女兩人以上的人數是不是整個家庭人數越來越少\n所以如果說把它改成育有未成年之餘就變成說一個人也可以的話其實人數的部分是越從過去以來人數就這樣的家庭越來越少嘛所以如果我們做一個修法的動作的時候其實可以讓更多的比如說已經收入已經在政府低於某一個層級以下的這些家庭他不會說越來人申請的總量會越來越少所以就是說修法完了以後就可以跟內政部跟衛福部討論一下如果人數的沒有差距太多的時候其實我覺得可以支持修法好不好 拜託署長\n可以把這個資料稍微統計一下對跟委員報告我想這個後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論就是說現在有一輪出來了那其實因為這會跟未來社宅的興建的房型對因為我就有統計如果要那的話連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做一些大幅的更動所以我才會說必須要透過一個統整第二個呢因為社宅興建的數量\n沒有辦法快速的成長那所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊來提升意願也是一個做法所以這個會需要整個政策上的一個整合那整合應該有完整的一個配套而不會說只有反映在單一的興建設宅的這一塊是這個意思那後續我們會後再討論那第二個還是我比較請教就是就現在內政部整個的\n的概念來講其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅的興建以及包租代管以及租金補貼整體是含在整個的範圍裡面可是我之前一直在討論的點就是說租金大家希望說租金市場越來越透明那這次當然也有提說出來說你們會依照租屋補貼的數字統一去統整說整個租金的整個市場的價格可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼的即時性\n而且地域性而受到限制所以至於上次有提到請教的一個點就是說租金補貼的數量越來越多可是相對來講租金申報的比例相對來講越來越低這個問題所以當時我們要開始討論是說像我現在有實價登錄房屋買賣的實價登錄\n要求買賣雙方要付申報的義務那有沒有可能租金租屋補貼的部分未來也有可能比照這個我們的買賣的實價登錄所以是房客還是房東你們有沒有這樣演繹的部分說如果未來可以做申報的話租金租屋市場可能越來越透明而不是有這個政府單位在做後續的統整再來公佈\n那個也跟委員報告一下這個我們也大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量第一個部分的話有關於租金補貼的民眾其實他不是專業的一個人士所以你要求他去填那些資料可能他資料的\n填的部分可能正確性就會有問題這是政府要輔導就像之前那個實價登錄也是政府輔導一陣子了嘛好不好那第二個部分的話其實我們租金補貼是要協助民眾來做一個租屋那其實民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關的資料去做揭露以至於他不願意來做一個申請這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些協助的門櫃不過現在應該應該是說現在都是\n請這個租賃業者來去做實價登錄的一個部分如果租金補貼的話就不會經過業者了解就是說其實現在有一個規定就是有這個申報的一個動作就是這個租賃業者來做申報的一個動作嘛\n所以就是說我認為政府來這邊部分的說我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做所以你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的一個逐步性的一個措施以及辦法就供你們做參考好不好那個部分的話有關於租金統計的部分我們現在半年固定以後半年也會以後半年都會有一次嗎那當然是希望說可以越平凡是越好區域性也可以越好就是一個區一個區為主\n好那第三個我還是要請教就是民眾所如果有需要社會住宅就是新建社會住宅的這個民眾所長期還是要請教署長的問題就是說現在這其實排隊還是排非常的久那當然剛剛有提到的一個問題是說就是因為現在數量還是不夠多嘛\n那我現在請教署長是不是有重複登記因為就我了解如果你現在在入住社會住宅的時候其實你還是可以依照你的需求登記不同的社會住宅比如說我未來有依照我的戶籍或者我的學區或者我自己本身的需求可以登記其他社會住宅\n這個部分這個國土署後面這部有沒有一個想法說有沒有一個限制就是說我是所有都可以登記還是說我只能限制登記兩三個而不會造成大家每次在領這個號碼牌的時候都是兩三百號兩三百號那個心情會覺得說好像沒有完全看不到一個盡頭那我也認識很多的朋友其實抽社會住宅了以後其實六七年他都抽不到新的社會住宅等等的一個問題那是不是請署長有沒有重複的問題其實對社宅來講因為\n對很多民眾來講它可能是一個生活圈的概念也就是說或許我住在板橋\n但是呢他覺得他上班的地方我可能在新莊那我可能在中和所以他可能在選的時候他就會覺得那既然我有我是以生活圈的概念去他可能這幾個區他都去挑那這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他因為從生活圈的概念他是正確的那這也是我們認為說為什麼去主張一個大平台大家都去填反而會造成這個數量是暴增的沒錯就是數量會讓人家覺得有點暴增到會覺得你更難抽\n那所以才會說我們為什麼在這一方面會很審慎的要繼續評估也就是說因為你很難克服那個地域性它的一個需求那也跟剛剛也有委員提到還有學區的問題有些還會為了學區再特別去加抽好那署長實際的關係就是個問題因為本席的選區在中和啊也常常跟署長會跟這個住宿中心開會那因為我們有11個社會住宅\n本席是說我大膽做一個建議因為社會自然興建過去可能就是一些國有地可能在做臨時做停車場或是一些綠地的一些部分本席之前都有需要都是有提說其實你們都做得很好就是會有一些比如說這個讓周邊的民眾比如說\n長照日照或托嬰托幼中心或是李明的共享空間我覺得都很好那可是因為人數在這個空間裡面的人變多了停車需求會變得更高那所以我在想說社會住宅是不是有有可以就是規定說一定的比例\n就地下室的停車位一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾來使用比如說5%、10%因為我相信你們在做社會住宅規劃的時候一定常常開會的時候都會有討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題你們有沒有可能研議說我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例那邊有沒有在研議說多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民來去做租用\n然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的一個一個到來\n的這個建議啦因為其實各地都有類似啦那其實現在的狀況只是因為說涉及到管理問題那所以過去也有曾經有這樣的案例但是事實上後續的管理呃衍生了新的糾紛啦那所以這個部分我們也會委員的建議我想我們會持續來討論尤其是針對某一些個案他如果真的周圍在地這個需求非常強但是實務上要怎麼去處理我想我們都會\n個案跟住戶中心再來討論看怎麼解決這類問題拜託署長以及住戶中心大家都很辛苦謝謝大家謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝張志仁委員的質詢下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.239 --> 00:24.806\n好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉部長跟吳署長劉部長吳署長有請好謝謝部長跟署長那先要討論的是這個住宅法的修法那其中有一條比較重要的就是第四條就是關於一些經濟總家庭收入平均比較這個\n\n00:26.366 --> 00:47.285\n这个比较没有符合到主管机关的一个标准者就是经济状况比较稍微比较差一点的这些的家庭那现在有个修法的里面的一个款里面应该是第二项第二款里面说是不是可以考虑把这个未有未成年子女两人\n\n00:48.853 --> 01:10.025\n以上把它改成育有未成年子女的這個部分來去做一個修法的動作那我們其實現在可以看到當然是我們委員立法有很多委員想說提供提出這樣的修法就是針對現在少子女化的一些問題來去做解決那我們可以看到新北市的社宅在今年的114年1月1號其實他也有一個新的規定就是\n\n01:10.985 --> 01:33.624\n新北市政府決定社會住宅招租比例中匡列10%的名額提供給育有兩名子女上的家庭做申請而且來採收簽字其實就是說不管是在地方他也是針對這個有未成年子女的部分來去做一個比較闊讓他可以比較多人的一些的使用那我們現在在中央的修法是說\n\n01:34.284 --> 01:52.910\n是不是說因為現在可能少子女化的問題其實現在根據統計一個家庭可能生育的小孩子不到一個人所以這樣子的修法其實我們希望說這個內政部是可以做支持的一個動作可是沒有想到說內政部今天提出來的報告是說認為你們有你們的立場是\n\n01:53.650 --> 02:20.632\n希望不予修訂喔那所以我剛也特別請教衛福部的一個問題是說現在來講是不是像我們符合這條這個住宅法第4條預有未成年子女兩人以上者的人數其實是越來越少的所以如果把它改成只有預有未成年子女的部分上其實是不會有任何的排擠效果所以是不是有這樣的狀況所以我剛有請衛福部來說明說這樣的人數是不是沒有太大的影響\n\n02:21.252 --> 02:32.777\n所以內政部是不是可以來協助不管在從新北市這樣子幫助少女俗女化的部分中央的部分是內政部可以來協助說也來支持這樣的這樣子的版本\n\n02:34.315 --> 02:56.283\n有關那個剛剛委員所提問的部分我想先綜合跟委員講一下新北市政府他提出遇有這個未成年子女兩人以上那表示說他有其他的母法的支撐所以他在行政措施上自己就開放了沒錯沒錯那他可以創業的人數可能有的範圍更多嗎所以因為中央有修法地方也可以徵召嗎\n\n02:57.203 --> 03:11.818\n那就是剛剛我們所說的因為全國有22個縣市那我們如果可以在行政措施上做這個滾動式的調整然後不要用剛性的入法的條件因為我們剛性入法的條件到目前為止是40%的這個弱勢戶是110年修到現在是3年的時間\n\n03:16.022 --> 03:30.405\n那這個部分呢也就是剛剛所說的其實它並不違反就是新北市政府或台北市政府或是桃園市政府他們有自己的一個入住的條件申請的條件那其實都不違反住宅法沒錯因為它不能違反嘛那這樣的狀況就是我們剛剛所說的現在的那個社會住宅的興建完成入住的量還沒有達到一定規模剛剛我們署長有跟大院報告過現在剛好這個六年的時間剛好到一輪的話是不是我們在收整\n\n03:44.748 --> 04:01.268\n其他縣市政府對這些方面的意見的時候呢我們再來統一這樣子我們會更審慎而不是衝速就入卡所以謝謝部長的回應所以我的意思是說因為現在台灣少子化的問題嘛所以育有未成年子女兩人以上的人數是不是整個家庭人數越來越少\n\n04:02.169 --> 04:30.808\n所以如果說把它改成育有未成年之餘就變成說一個人也可以的話其實人數的部分是越從過去以來人數就這樣的家庭越來越少嘛所以如果我們做一個修法的動作的時候其實可以讓更多的比如說已經收入已經在政府低於某一個層級以下的這些家庭他不會說越來人申請的總量會越來越少所以就是說修法完了以後就可以跟內政部跟衛福部討論一下如果人數的沒有差距太多的時候其實我覺得可以支持修法好不好拜託署長\n\n04:31.508 --> 04:55.211\n可以把這個資料稍微統計一下對跟委員報告我想這個後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論就是說現在有一輪出來了那其實因為這會跟未來社宅的興建的房型對因為我就有統計如果要那的話連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做一些大幅的更動所以我才會說必須要透過一個統整第二個呢因為社宅興建的數量\n\n04:56.092 --> 05:16.346\n沒有辦法快速的成長那所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊來提升意願也是一個做法所以這個會需要整個政策上的一個整合那整合應該有完整的一個配套而不會說只有反映在單一的興建設宅的這一塊是這個意思那後續我們會後再討論那第二個還是我比較請教就是就現在內政部整個的\n\n05:21.509 --> 05:46.386\n的概念來講其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅的興建以及包租代管以及租金補貼整體是含在整個的範圍裡面可是我之前一直在討論的點就是說租金大家希望說租金市場越來越透明那這次當然也有提說出來說你們會依照租屋補貼的數字統一去統整說整個租金的整個市場的價格可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼的即時性\n\n05:46.846 --> 05:58.392\n而且地域性而受到限制所以至於上次有提到請教的一個點就是說租金補貼的數量越來越多可是相對來講租金申報的比例相對來講越來越低這個問題所以當時我們要開始討論是說像我現在有實價登錄房屋買賣的實價登錄\n\n06:03.055 --> 06:25.562\n要求買賣雙方要付申報的義務那有沒有可能租金租屋補貼的部分未來也有可能比照這個我們的買賣的實價登錄所以是房客還是房東你們有沒有這樣演繹的部分說如果未來可以做申報的話租金租屋市場可能越來越透明而不是有這個政府單位在做後續的統整再來公佈\n\n06:27.162 --> 06:41.578\n那個也跟委員報告一下這個我們也大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量第一個部分的話有關於租金補貼的民眾其實他不是專業的一個人士所以你要求他去填那些資料可能他資料的\n\n06:42.499 --> 07:07.845\n填的部分可能正確性就會有問題這是政府要輔導就像之前那個實價登錄也是政府輔導一陣子了嘛好不好那第二個部分的話其實我們租金補貼是要協助民眾來做一個租屋那其實民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關的資料去做揭露以至於他不願意來做一個申請這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些協助的門櫃不過現在應該應該是說現在都是\n\n07:10.887 --> 07:25.479\n請這個租賃業者來去做實價登錄的一個部分如果租金補貼的話就不會經過業者了解就是說其實現在有一個規定就是有這個申報的一個動作就是這個租賃業者來做申報的一個動作嘛\n\n07:26.139 --> 07:53.047\n所以就是說我認為政府來這邊部分的說我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做所以你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的一個逐步性的一個措施以及辦法就供你們做參考好不好那個部分的話有關於租金統計的部分我們現在半年固定以後半年也會以後半年都會有一次嗎那當然是希望說可以越平凡是越好區域性也可以越好就是一個區一個區為主\n\n07:54.707 --> 08:13.110\n好那第三個我還是要請教就是民眾所如果有需要社會住宅就是新建社會住宅的這個民眾所長期還是要請教署長的問題就是說現在這其實排隊還是排非常的久那當然剛剛有提到的一個問題是說就是因為現在數量還是不夠多嘛\n\n08:13.430 --> 08:29.009\n那我現在請教署長是不是有重複登記因為就我了解如果你現在在入住社會住宅的時候其實你還是可以依照你的需求登記不同的社會住宅比如說我未來有依照我的戶籍或者我的學區或者我自己本身的需求可以登記其他社會住宅\n\n08:31.472 --> 08:55.036\n這個部分這個國土署後面這部有沒有一個想法說有沒有一個限制就是說我是所有都可以登記還是說我只能限制登記兩三個而不會造成大家每次在領這個號碼牌的時候都是兩三百號兩三百號那個心情會覺得說好像沒有完全看不到一個盡頭那我也認識很多的朋友其實抽社會住宅了以後其實六七年他都抽不到新的社會住宅等等的一個問題那是不是請署長有沒有重複的問題其實對社宅來講因為\n\n08:59.057 --> 09:03.742\n對很多民眾來講它可能是一個生活圈的概念也就是說或許我住在板橋\n\n09:04.690 --> 09:32.732\n但是呢他覺得他上班的地方我可能在新莊那我可能在中和所以他可能在選的時候他就會覺得那既然我有我是以生活圈的概念去他可能這幾個區他都去挑那這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他因為從生活圈的概念他是正確的那這也是我們認為說為什麼去主張一個大平台大家都去填反而會造成這個數量是暴增的沒錯就是數量會讓人家覺得有點暴增到會覺得你更難抽\n\n09:33.212 --> 09:54.581\n那所以才會說我們為什麼在這一方面會很審慎的要繼續評估也就是說因為你很難克服那個地域性它的一個需求那也跟剛剛也有委員提到還有學區的問題有些還會為了學區再特別去加抽好那署長實際的關係就是個問題因為本席的選區在中和啊也常常跟署長會跟這個住宿中心開會那因為我們有11個社會住宅\n\n09:58.222 --> 10:15.619\n本席是說我大膽做一個建議因為社會自然興建過去可能就是一些國有地可能在做臨時做停車場或是一些綠地的一些部分本席之前都有需要都是有提說其實你們都做得很好就是會有一些比如說這個讓周邊的民眾比如說\n\n10:17.180 --> 10:32.808\n長照日照或托嬰托幼中心或是李明的共享空間我覺得都很好那可是因為人數在這個空間裡面的人變多了停車需求會變得更高那所以我在想說社會住宅是不是有有可以就是規定說一定的比例\n\n10:33.508 --> 10:58.924\n就地下室的停車位一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾來使用比如說5%、10%因為我相信你們在做社會住宅規劃的時候一定常常開會的時候都會有討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題你們有沒有可能研議說我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例那邊有沒有在研議說多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民來去做租用\n\n10:59.244 --> 11:03.024\n然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的一個一個到來\n\n11:04.670 --> 11:30.956\n的這個建議啦因為其實各地都有類似啦那其實現在的狀況只是因為說涉及到管理問題那所以過去也有曾經有這樣的案例但是事實上後續的管理呃衍生了新的糾紛啦那所以這個部分我們也會委員的建議我想我們會持續來討論尤其是針對某一些個案他如果真的周圍在地這個需求非常強但是實務上要怎麼去處理我想我們都會\n\n11:31.676 --> 11:40.300\n個案跟住戶中心再來討論看怎麼解決這類問題拜託署長以及住戶中心大家都很辛苦謝謝大家謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝張志仁委員的質詢下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.239,"end":24.806,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉部長跟吳署長劉部長吳署長有請好謝謝部長跟署長那先要討論的是這個住宅法的修法那其中有一條比較重要的就是第四條就是關於一些經濟總家庭收入平均比較這個"},{"start":26.366,"end":47.285,"text":"这个比较没有符合到主管机关的一个标准者就是经济状况比较稍微比较差一点的这些的家庭那现在有个修法的里面的一个款里面应该是第二项第二款里面说是不是可以考虑把这个未有未成年子女两人"},{"start":48.853,"end":70.025,"text":"以上把它改成育有未成年子女的這個部分來去做一個修法的動作那我們其實現在可以看到當然是我們委員立法有很多委員想說提供提出這樣的修法就是針對現在少子女化的一些問題來去做解決那我們可以看到新北市的社宅在今年的114年1月1號其實他也有一個新的規定就是"},{"start":70.985,"end":93.624,"text":"新北市政府決定社會住宅招租比例中匡列10%的名額提供給育有兩名子女上的家庭做申請而且來採收簽字其實就是說不管是在地方他也是針對這個有未成年子女的部分來去做一個比較闊讓他可以比較多人的一些的使用那我們現在在中央的修法是說"},{"start":94.284,"end":112.91,"text":"是不是說因為現在可能少子女化的問題其實現在根據統計一個家庭可能生育的小孩子不到一個人所以這樣子的修法其實我們希望說這個內政部是可以做支持的一個動作可是沒有想到說內政部今天提出來的報告是說認為你們有你們的立場是"},{"start":113.65,"end":140.632,"text":"希望不予修訂喔那所以我剛也特別請教衛福部的一個問題是說現在來講是不是像我們符合這條這個住宅法第4條預有未成年子女兩人以上者的人數其實是越來越少的所以如果把它改成只有預有未成年子女的部分上其實是不會有任何的排擠效果所以是不是有這樣的狀況所以我剛有請衛福部來說明說這樣的人數是不是沒有太大的影響"},{"start":141.252,"end":152.777,"text":"所以內政部是不是可以來協助不管在從新北市這樣子幫助少女俗女化的部分中央的部分是內政部可以來協助說也來支持這樣的這樣子的版本"},{"start":154.315,"end":176.283,"text":"有關那個剛剛委員所提問的部分我想先綜合跟委員講一下新北市政府他提出遇有這個未成年子女兩人以上那表示說他有其他的母法的支撐所以他在行政措施上自己就開放了沒錯沒錯那他可以創業的人數可能有的範圍更多嗎所以因為中央有修法地方也可以徵召嗎"},{"start":177.203,"end":191.818,"text":"那就是剛剛我們所說的因為全國有22個縣市那我們如果可以在行政措施上做這個滾動式的調整然後不要用剛性的入法的條件因為我們剛性入法的條件到目前為止是40%的這個弱勢戶是110年修到現在是3年的時間"},{"start":196.022,"end":210.405,"text":"那這個部分呢也就是剛剛所說的其實它並不違反就是新北市政府或台北市政府或是桃園市政府他們有自己的一個入住的條件申請的條件那其實都不違反住宅法沒錯因為它不能違反嘛那這樣的狀況就是我們剛剛所說的現在的那個社會住宅的興建完成入住的量還沒有達到一定規模剛剛我們署長有跟大院報告過現在剛好這個六年的時間剛好到一輪的話是不是我們在收整"},{"start":224.748,"end":241.268,"text":"其他縣市政府對這些方面的意見的時候呢我們再來統一這樣子我們會更審慎而不是衝速就入卡所以謝謝部長的回應所以我的意思是說因為現在台灣少子化的問題嘛所以育有未成年子女兩人以上的人數是不是整個家庭人數越來越少"},{"start":242.169,"end":270.808,"text":"所以如果說把它改成育有未成年之餘就變成說一個人也可以的話其實人數的部分是越從過去以來人數就這樣的家庭越來越少嘛所以如果我們做一個修法的動作的時候其實可以讓更多的比如說已經收入已經在政府低於某一個層級以下的這些家庭他不會說越來人申請的總量會越來越少所以就是說修法完了以後就可以跟內政部跟衛福部討論一下如果人數的沒有差距太多的時候其實我覺得可以支持修法好不好 拜託署長"},{"start":271.508,"end":295.211,"text":"可以把這個資料稍微統計一下對跟委員報告我想這個後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論就是說現在有一輪出來了那其實因為這會跟未來社宅的興建的房型對因為我就有統計如果要那的話連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做一些大幅的更動所以我才會說必須要透過一個統整第二個呢因為社宅興建的數量"},{"start":296.092,"end":316.346,"text":"沒有辦法快速的成長那所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊來提升意願也是一個做法所以這個會需要整個政策上的一個整合那整合應該有完整的一個配套而不會說只有反映在單一的興建設宅的這一塊是這個意思那後續我們會後再討論那第二個還是我比較請教就是就現在內政部整個的"},{"start":321.509,"end":346.386,"text":"的概念來講其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅的興建以及包租代管以及租金補貼整體是含在整個的範圍裡面可是我之前一直在討論的點就是說租金大家希望說租金市場越來越透明那這次當然也有提說出來說你們會依照租屋補貼的數字統一去統整說整個租金的整個市場的價格可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼的即時性"},{"start":346.846,"end":358.392,"text":"而且地域性而受到限制所以至於上次有提到請教的一個點就是說租金補貼的數量越來越多可是相對來講租金申報的比例相對來講越來越低這個問題所以當時我們要開始討論是說像我現在有實價登錄房屋買賣的實價登錄"},{"start":363.055,"end":385.562,"text":"要求買賣雙方要付申報的義務那有沒有可能租金租屋補貼的部分未來也有可能比照這個我們的買賣的實價登錄所以是房客還是房東你們有沒有這樣演繹的部分說如果未來可以做申報的話租金租屋市場可能越來越透明而不是有這個政府單位在做後續的統整再來公佈"},{"start":387.162,"end":401.578,"text":"那個也跟委員報告一下這個我們也大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量第一個部分的話有關於租金補貼的民眾其實他不是專業的一個人士所以你要求他去填那些資料可能他資料的"},{"start":402.499,"end":427.845,"text":"填的部分可能正確性就會有問題這是政府要輔導就像之前那個實價登錄也是政府輔導一陣子了嘛好不好那第二個部分的話其實我們租金補貼是要協助民眾來做一個租屋那其實民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關的資料去做揭露以至於他不願意來做一個申請這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些協助的門櫃不過現在應該應該是說現在都是"},{"start":430.887,"end":445.479,"text":"請這個租賃業者來去做實價登錄的一個部分如果租金補貼的話就不會經過業者了解就是說其實現在有一個規定就是有這個申報的一個動作就是這個租賃業者來做申報的一個動作嘛"},{"start":446.139,"end":473.047,"text":"所以就是說我認為政府來這邊部分的說我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做所以你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的一個逐步性的一個措施以及辦法就供你們做參考好不好那個部分的話有關於租金統計的部分我們現在半年固定以後半年也會以後半年都會有一次嗎那當然是希望說可以越平凡是越好區域性也可以越好就是一個區一個區為主"},{"start":474.707,"end":493.11,"text":"好那第三個我還是要請教就是民眾所如果有需要社會住宅就是新建社會住宅的這個民眾所長期還是要請教署長的問題就是說現在這其實排隊還是排非常的久那當然剛剛有提到的一個問題是說就是因為現在數量還是不夠多嘛"},{"start":493.43,"end":509.009,"text":"那我現在請教署長是不是有重複登記因為就我了解如果你現在在入住社會住宅的時候其實你還是可以依照你的需求登記不同的社會住宅比如說我未來有依照我的戶籍或者我的學區或者我自己本身的需求可以登記其他社會住宅"},{"start":511.472,"end":535.036,"text":"這個部分這個國土署後面這部有沒有一個想法說有沒有一個限制就是說我是所有都可以登記還是說我只能限制登記兩三個而不會造成大家每次在領這個號碼牌的時候都是兩三百號兩三百號那個心情會覺得說好像沒有完全看不到一個盡頭那我也認識很多的朋友其實抽社會住宅了以後其實六七年他都抽不到新的社會住宅等等的一個問題那是不是請署長有沒有重複的問題其實對社宅來講因為"},{"start":539.057,"end":543.742,"text":"對很多民眾來講它可能是一個生活圈的概念也就是說或許我住在板橋"},{"start":544.69,"end":572.732,"text":"但是呢他覺得他上班的地方我可能在新莊那我可能在中和所以他可能在選的時候他就會覺得那既然我有我是以生活圈的概念去他可能這幾個區他都去挑那這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他因為從生活圈的概念他是正確的那這也是我們認為說為什麼去主張一個大平台大家都去填反而會造成這個數量是暴增的沒錯就是數量會讓人家覺得有點暴增到會覺得你更難抽"},{"start":573.212,"end":594.581,"text":"那所以才會說我們為什麼在這一方面會很審慎的要繼續評估也就是說因為你很難克服那個地域性它的一個需求那也跟剛剛也有委員提到還有學區的問題有些還會為了學區再特別去加抽好那署長實際的關係就是個問題因為本席的選區在中和啊也常常跟署長會跟這個住宿中心開會那因為我們有11個社會住宅"},{"start":598.222,"end":615.619,"text":"本席是說我大膽做一個建議因為社會自然興建過去可能就是一些國有地可能在做臨時做停車場或是一些綠地的一些部分本席之前都有需要都是有提說其實你們都做得很好就是會有一些比如說這個讓周邊的民眾比如說"},{"start":617.18,"end":632.808,"text":"長照日照或托嬰托幼中心或是李明的共享空間我覺得都很好那可是因為人數在這個空間裡面的人變多了停車需求會變得更高那所以我在想說社會住宅是不是有有可以就是規定說一定的比例"},{"start":633.508,"end":658.924,"text":"就地下室的停車位一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾來使用比如說5%、10%因為我相信你們在做社會住宅規劃的時候一定常常開會的時候都會有討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題你們有沒有可能研議說我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例那邊有沒有在研議說多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民來去做租用"},{"start":659.244,"end":663.024,"text":"然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的一個一個到來"},{"start":664.67,"end":690.956,"text":"的這個建議啦因為其實各地都有類似啦那其實現在的狀況只是因為說涉及到管理問題那所以過去也有曾經有這樣的案例但是事實上後續的管理呃衍生了新的糾紛啦那所以這個部分我們也會委員的建議我想我們會持續來討論尤其是針對某一些個案他如果真的周圍在地這個需求非常強但是實務上要怎麼去處理我想我們都會"},{"start":691.676,"end":700.3,"text":"個案跟住戶中心再來討論看怎麼解決這類問題拜託署長以及住戶中心大家都很辛苦謝謝大家謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝張志仁委員的質詢下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時18分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請劉部長跟吳署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長有請。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長跟署長。今天要討論的是住宅法的修法，其中有一條比較重要的就是第四條，是關於一些家庭總收入平均比較沒有符合主管機關標準的，就是經濟狀況稍微比較差一點的家庭。現在在提案修法的條文裡面，應該是第二項第三款裡面，是不是可以考慮把「育有未成年子女二人以上」改成「育有未成年子女」，就這個部分修法。現在可以看到很多委員提出這樣的修法，就是希望解決現在少子女化的問題。","我們可以看到新北市的社宅在今（114）年1月1日其實也有一個新的規定，新北市政府決定社會住宅招租比例中，會匡列百分之十的名額，提供給育有二名子女以上的家庭做申請，而且採抽籤制。其實不管是在地方，它也是針對有未成年子女的部分鬆綁，讓他可以比較多元的使用。而現在中央的修法是，因為現在有少子女化的問題，根據統計，一個家庭所生育的小孩子不到一人，所以對於這樣的修法，我們希望內政部可以支持，可是沒想到內政部今天提出來的報告卻說你們有你們的立場，希望不予修訂。","所以我剛剛也特別請教衛福部一個問題，現在符合住宅法第四條「育有未成年子女二人以上」的人數是不是越來越少？其實如果把它改成「育有未成年子女」，不會有任何的排擠效果，是不是有這樣的狀況？所以我剛剛有請衛福部來說明這樣人數是不是沒有太大的影響，內政部是不是可以來協助？包括像新北市這樣幫助少子女化的措施，中央的部分是不是內政部可以來協助，也來支持這樣的版本？"],["劉部長世芳：有關剛剛委員所提問的部分，我想先綜合跟委員講一下，新北市政府提出「育有未成年子女二人以上」，表示他有其他母法的支撐，所以他在行政措施上自己就開放了。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯、沒錯，所以他可以匡列的範圍更多。如果中央有修法，地方也可以遵照。"],["劉部長世芳：是，那就是剛剛我們所說的，因為全國有22個縣市，我們如果可以在行政措施上做滾動式調整，然後不要用剛性入法的條件……因為我們剛性入法的條件，到目前為止40%的弱勢戶是110年，修到現在是三年的時間，這個部分也就是剛剛所說的，其實它並不違反住宅法。新北市政府、臺北市政府或是桃園市政府有自己的入住條件或申請條件，其實都不違反住宅法。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，因為他不能違反。"],["劉部長世芳：是，這樣的狀況就是我們剛剛所說的，現在社會住宅興建完成且入住的量還沒有達到一定規模，剛剛我們署長有跟大院報告過，現在六年的時間剛好到一輪的話，是不是我們在蒐整其他縣市政府對這些方面的意見之後，我們再來統一？這樣子我們會更審慎，而不是匆促就入法。"],["張委員智倫：我了解，謝謝部長的回應。我的意思是，因為現在臺灣有少子化的問題，所以育有未成年子女二人以上的家庭數是不是越來越少？如果把它改成「育有未成年子女」，變成一個人也可以申請的話……因為從過去以來，這樣的家庭越來越少，如果我們可以修法的話，其實可以讓更多的家庭，比如說，收入已經低於某一個層級以下的家庭也能夠申請，這樣能申請的總量才不會越來越少。修法完了以後，內政部可以跟衛福部討論一下，如果人數上沒有差距太多的時候，其實我覺得可以支持修法，好不好？拜託署長，可以把這個資料稍微統計一下。"],["吳署長欣修：對，跟委員報告，後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論。現在有一輪出來了，因為這會跟未來社宅興建的房型……"],["張委員智倫：對，因為我就有統計，其實大家的……"],["吳署長欣修：如果要納的話，連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做大幅的更動，所以我才會說必須要透過統整。第二個，因為社宅興建的數量沒有辦法快速成長，所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊，提升意願也是一個作法，所以這個會需要整個政策上的整合，而整合應該有完整的配套，不會只有反映在單一的興建社宅這一塊，是這個意思。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長，沒關係，後續我們會後再討論。","第二個，我要請教的是，就現在內政部整個的概念來講，其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅興建，還有包租代管及租金補貼，整體是含在整個範圍裡面。可是我之前一直在討論的點就是，大家希望租金市場越來越透明，內政部當然也有提出來，說你們會依照租屋補貼的數字，統一去統整整個租金市場的價格，可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼即時性，而且地域性也會受到限制。我上次有請教一點，就是租金補貼的數量越來越多，可是租金申報的比例卻是相對越來越低，所以當時我們在討論，像現在房屋買賣有實價登錄，要求買賣雙方要負申報的義務，未來租屋補貼的部分有沒有可能比照買賣的實價登錄？會是由房客還是房東來申報？你們有沒有研議過？如果未來可以申報的話，租屋市場就能夠越來越透明，而不是由政府單位做後續的統整，再來公布。"],["林代理司長家正：也跟委員報告，我們大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量的，第一個部分，有關於租金補貼的民眾，其實他不是專業人士，所以你要求他去填那些資料，可能資料填的正確性就會有問題。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，這是政府要輔導的，就像之前實價登錄也是政府輔導了一陣子嘛。"],["林代理司長家正：第二個部分，租金補貼是要協助民眾租屋，但民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關資料去揭露，以致於他不願意來申請，這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些補助的美意。"],["張委員智倫：的確啦！應該是說，現在都是請租賃業者做實價登錄的部分。"],["林代理司長家正：如果租金補貼的話，就不會經過業者，就是民眾自己來。"],["張委員智倫：我了解，現在有一個規定，就是要由租賃業者申報。政府針對這個部分，我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做，而是希望你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的逐步性措施及辦法。這供你們參考，好不好？"],["林代理司長家正：有關於租金統計的部分，我們是固定以後半年也會持續做。"],["張委員智倫：以後半年都會有一次嘛？"],["林代理司長家正：是。"],["張委員智倫：當然是希望可以越頻繁越好……"],["林代理司長家正：會，分析資料的參考性會讓它的資料更完整……"],["張委員智倫：區域性也可以越好，就是以一個區、一個區為主。","第三個，我還是要請教，民眾如果有需要社會住宅，要請教署長的問題就是，現在其實排隊還是排非常久，當然剛剛有提到的問題是，因為現在數量還是不夠多。我現在請教署長，是不是有重複登記的問題？因為就我了解，如果你現在要入住社會住宅，其實你還是可以依照自己的需求，登記不同的社會住宅。比如說，我未來可以依照我的戶籍、我的學區或者我自己本身的需求，登記入住其他的社會住宅。這個部分國土署或內政部有沒有一個想法，就是有沒有一個限制？我是所有都可以登記，還是只能先去登記兩、三個？這樣才不會造成大家每次在領號碼牌的時候，每次都是兩、三百號，那個心情會覺得好像完全看不到盡頭。我也認識很多朋友，他們登記抽社會住宅之後，等了六、七年都還有抽不到新的社會住宅等等的問題。請教署長，有沒有重複的問題？"],["吳署長欣修：其實以社宅來講，因為對很多民眾來講，可能是一個生活圈的概念，也就是說，或許他住在板橋，但是他上班的地方可能在新莊或可能在中和，所以他在選的時候就會覺得，既然他是以生活圈的概念去選，可能這幾個區他統統都去挑。這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他，因為從生活圈的概念來看，他是正確的，這也是我們認為如果主張一個大平臺讓大家去填，反而會造成數量是暴增的。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，就是數量會讓人家覺得有點……"],["吳署長欣修：暴增到會覺得你更難抽。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我們才會說為什麼在這一方面要很審慎的繼續評估，因為你很難克服地域性的需求。剛剛也有委員提到，還有學區的問題，有些人還會為了學區再特別去加抽。"],["張委員智倫：署長，因為時間的關係，最後一個問題。本席的選區在中和，也常常跟署長或住都中心開會，因為我們有11個社會住宅，本席大膽提一個建議。社會住宅的興建，過去可能都是國有地臨時做停車場或是綠地的部分。本席之前就有提到，其實你們都做得很好，都會建置一些讓周邊民眾使用的設施，比如說，長照、日照、托嬰、托幼中心或是里民的共享空間，我覺得都很好，可是當這個空間裡面的人變多了，停車需求會變得更高。所以我在想，社會住宅是不是可以規定一定的比例，比如地下室停車位有一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾使用？比如說5%、10%，有沒有？我相信你們在做社會住宅規劃的時候，常常開會一定都會討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題，你們有沒有可能研議我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例，內部有沒有研議多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民去租用，然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的到來？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員的建議，其實各地都有類似，現在的狀況只是因為涉及到管理問題，所以過去也曾經有這樣的案例，但是後續的管理衍生了新的糾紛。所以這個部分，委員的建議我想我們會持續討論，尤其是針對某一些個案，如果真的周圍在地需求非常強，但是實務上要怎麼去處理，我們都會個案跟住都中心再來討論，看怎麼解決這類問題。"],["張委員智倫：好，拜託署長以及住都中心，大家都很辛苦，謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。","下一位我們請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}}