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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T10:30:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:40:00+08:00","duration":595,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160619","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160619","tool":"pyannote","id":"160619-pyannote"},"job_id":"QJy9AcjqRNUG4ewo","queued_at":"2025-04-24 12:30:07","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2025-04-24 12:31:27","msg":"downloading 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00:01:44,118\n你太剛性的立法下去以後會讓他地方實務上可能會產生一些執行的困難所以我們才會覺得說比較需要多一點反而是透過行政措施或行政協商盡量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策是順利的在進行是通常會用這樣的方式來進行立法\n\n5\n00:01:45,567 --> 00:02:09,720\n是一個很明確但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準這其實我覺得我們從這個點去思考可能就是會有很大的問題我想再繼續請教一下就是說我們現在解決住宅的問題應該是分成社會住宅一塊\n\n6\n00:02:11,620 --> 00:02:33,155\n然後這個什麼租金補貼或什麼的這其實又是很重要的一塊我們目前台灣是不是大概比較重要是這兩塊來解決住宅的問題是其實基本上大概就是直接興建租金補貼跟包租代管三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群\n\n7\n00:02:34,318 --> 00:03:01,197\n對啦,租金補貼跟包租代管,我認為它的性質比較一樣啦齁不然,我請教你一個就好了齁那你覺得這兩個,兩大支柱啊現在的運行起來,其實有沒有解決了大部分的問題了是不不,我請教一下部長謝謝委員現在除了直接興建住宅以外齁我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來互數\n\n8\n00:03:02,950 --> 00:03:25,075\n已經高達八十五萬也就是說至少有八十五萬戶的人是接受政府的這個社會住宅或是租金補貼的一個協助而且都集中在都會地區比較多六都因為都會比較會需要這個也跟工作性質有關謝謝部長部長你先回去坐那再來\n\n9\n00:03:31,843 --> 00:03:56,887\n署長這剛剛布宅已經講了解決了大部分但我們必須要承認還有一些不還有一些問題沒有解決像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題在修法的裡面有可能關切一些議題比如說住宿宅的設宅的人我們現在是六年嘛最多嘛可能這個青年人\n\n10\n00:03:59,382 --> 00:04:11,968\n6年他小孩子剛好要上小學了剛好又要搬遷其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊我不知道署長你的看法\n\n11\n00:04:12,472 --> 00:04:35,010\n了解,應該是這麼說,因為有可能他入住的時候,他還單身或是剛要結婚所以他很可能在抽的時候,他去抽了這個單人房但是他已經遇到小孩子出生,要甚至要上小學,他開始要有分房的概念的時候其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已,他還有轉換房型的問題\n\n12\n00:04:35,911 --> 00:04:54,362\n那這就會讓我們現在的這一個直接興建這樣的一個困境會出來就是說你成長的速度還不夠快但是你也面臨了下一輪的問題那所以這也是我們在過程當中一直希望透過像租金補貼包租貸款這一類的輔助性的措施\n\n13\n00:04:55,822 --> 00:05:20,544\n提供更多的行政上的措施來協助他們你不是只有直接興建的可以選擇你也有其他的可以選擇那我們來強化那一個部分讓你在這個轉換的過程當中那當然社宅抽得到最好那抽不到你還有其他的方式來進行那這樣的話能夠讓他的居住的租屋的環境能夠更穩定我想這也是一個比較好的一個替代的做法\n\n14\n00:05:21,888 --> 00:05:27,518\n再一個問題我們弱勢雖然我們現行的法律規定大概40%但實際上\n\n15\n00:05:32,813 --> 00:05:59,653\n也實施好幾年啊他們實際上真正入住的比例是多少我們跟六都都有去調查過了那大概實際上的這個因為他除了弱勢戶以外他還可以抽一半戶所以他等於有兩支籤的機會那所以至少都已經是46到56之間也就是說都是弱勢46到50也就是說正式來講他已經過半了\n\n16\n00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:15,785\n實務上他已經過半了所以這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法若他一樣握有兩支籤他就會可能掏垮六十幾甚至衝到七十這樣的問題會跑出來其實我為什麼要特別問這個問題\n\n17\n00:06:17,526 --> 00:06:31,942\n其實弱勢的定義不一定只有他是中低收入戶其實我們的定義我們現在的法令來講他的範圍蠻廣的啦就弱勢是不是蠻廣的是嘛當然弱勢我們要特別照顧這個\n\n18\n00:06:33,325 --> 00:06:52,329\n沒有話講但以現在實際的執行上來講你說已經超過50而且中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍數字我要跟署長報告一下我跟你說數字是冰冷的啦你剛剛講說46到56其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣這1XXX%很難說服大家但\n\n19\n00:07:02,891 --> 00:07:26,881\n可以有一個很清楚的就是說因為弱勢他是可以抽兩次這個可能大家都不知道很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次所以他的中籤率就會比較高那我們如果說提高到50%我看可能提高到六成那你有一些青年人\n\n20\n00:07:28,134 --> 00:07:52,130\n他可能就被排擠到囉一些青年可能就抽不到囉應該說青年那個族群是更大的一群但是他的種籤率又會越來越低他可能那個種數是更大的但是他可能種籤率會更低這也是我們比較擔憂另一類的排擠的問題我的意思說如果你提高到50%如果這樣的話青年那一塊可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛\n\n21\n00:07:53,311 --> 00:08:18,320\n那所以啦署長我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題啦你覺不覺得啦其實這個社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後其實到現在啦雖然執政八年但不可能第一年就做吧要編預算要編什麼吧大概第二年第三年開始蓋嘛對不對那到現在也大概有好幾年的時間了嘛對不對\n\n22\n00:08:20,017 --> 00:08:42,117\n署長是有沒有需要一個總檢討的時候了就是我們推行一項政策大概一段時間了可不可以去檢討這個政策利弊得失然後我們去再稍微精進你覺得有時間點到了嗎對根文報告也剛好差不多今年很多社宅都是第一輪\n\n23\n00:08:42,897 --> 00:08:56,153\n已經就是六年已經處理完畢了已經出租完畢了那都已經進行第二輪那這也是剛好可以總結一些問題的涉宅直接新建涉宅的問題那以及來討論後續的解決對策\n\n24\n00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:23,076\n所以這一個我們會找六都一起來討論看看他們對這一方面的政策甚至回饋到我們整個的直接興建社宅的要面對的問題來做一個總檢討這個部分我們會來進行實際上我真的覺得今天的很多的修法其實有一些觀點它是對的是出現了問題了\n\n25\n00:09:24,178 --> 00:09:48,834\n但你們也說你們也在檢討也在做了我覺得啦與其我們這邊在這樣子我覺得要給你們時間你們弄出一套你們的想法你們的解決對策什麼的來給我們內政委員會然後讓大家來思考如何去改進你覺得可以嗎這個我想我們一定會來會朝這個方向來做可以啦好謝謝\n\n26\n00:09:52,847 --> 00:09:53,310\n好謝謝張宏祿趙偉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6164\t25793\t那就不用動了啦部長麻煩囉我先請教署長其實我們現在所說的社會住宅大概有分成中央興建跟地方興建的兩大部分是不是\n28064\t48592\t是不是是是嘛好那中央的他的一些辦法跟地方的一些好個性式的辦法有沒有全國一致目前沒有因為各地方政府還會有他因地制宜的一些方法沒錯啦這個其實你說各地方要求跟中央我覺得也不盡合理\n49232\t77956\t你以這個我們雙北跟你比如說其他的一般的張化什麼的這不是六度的我看條件都不一樣這也不適合說全國都一致那問題來了署長我想請教一下那我們今天如果修這個住宅法可以解決我說的這些情況嗎事實上還是很難因為\n78925\t104118\t你太剛性的立法下去以後會讓他地方實務上可能會產生一些執行的困難所以我們才會覺得說比較需要多一點反而是透過行政措施或行政協商盡量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策是順利的在進行是通常會用這樣的方式來進行立法\n105567\t129720\t是一個很明確但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準這其實我覺得我們從這個點去思考可能就是會有很大的問題我想再繼續請教一下就是說我們現在解決住宅的問題應該是分成社會住宅一塊\n131620\t153155\t然後這個什麼租金補貼或什麼的這其實又是很重要的一塊我們目前台灣是不是大概比較重要是這兩塊來解決住宅的問題是其實基本上大概就是直接興建租金補貼跟包租代管三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群\n154318\t181197\t對啦,租金補貼跟包租代管,我認為它的性質比較一樣啦齁不然,我請教你一個就好了齁那你覺得這兩個,兩大支柱啊現在的運行起來,其實有沒有解決了大部分的問題了是不不,我請教一下部長謝謝委員現在除了直接興建住宅以外齁我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來互數\n182950\t205075\t已經高達八十五萬也就是說至少有八十五萬戶的人是接受政府的這個社會住宅或是租金補貼的一個協助而且都集中在都會地區比較多六都因為都會比較會需要這個也跟工作性質有關謝謝部長 部長你先回去坐那再來\n211843\t236887\t署長這剛剛布宅已經講了解決了大部分但我們必須要承認還有一些不還有一些問題沒有解決像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題在修法的裡面有可能關切一些議題比如說住宿宅的設宅的人我們現在是六年嘛最多嘛可能這個青年人\n239382\t251968\t6年他小孩子剛好要上小學了剛好又要搬遷其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊我不知道署長你的看法\n252472\t275010\t了解,應該是這麼說,因為有可能他入住的時候,他還單身或是剛要結婚所以他很可能在抽的時候,他去抽了這個單人房但是他已經遇到小孩子出生,要甚至要上小學,他開始要有分房的概念的時候其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已,他還有轉換房型的問題\n275911\t294362\t那這就會讓我們現在的這一個直接興建這樣的一個困境會出來就是說你成長的速度還不夠快但是你也面臨了下一輪的問題那所以這也是我們在過程當中一直希望透過像租金補貼包租貸款這一類的輔助性的措施\n295822\t320544\t提供更多的行政上的措施來協助他們你不是只有直接興建的可以選擇你也有其他的可以選擇那我們來強化那一個部分讓你在這個轉換的過程當中那當然社宅抽得到最好那抽不到你還有其他的方式來進行那這樣的話能夠讓他的居住的租屋的環境能夠更穩定我想這也是一個比較好的一個替代的做法\n321888\t327518\t再一個問題我們弱勢雖然我們現行的法律規定大概40%但實際上\n332813\t359653\t也實施好幾年啊他們實際上真正入住的比例是多少我們跟六都都有去調查過了那大概實際上的這個因為他除了弱勢戶以外他還可以抽一半戶所以他等於有兩支籤的機會那所以至少都已經是46到56之間也就是說都是弱勢46到50也就是說正式來講他已經過半了\n361600\t375785\t實務上他已經過半了所以這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法若他一樣握有兩支籤他就會可能掏垮六十幾甚至衝到七十這樣的問題會跑出來其實我為什麼要特別問這個問題\n377526\t391942\t其實弱勢的定義不一定只有他是中低收入戶其實我們的定義我們現在的法令來講他的範圍蠻廣的啦就弱勢是不是蠻廣的是嘛當然弱勢我們要特別照顧這個\n393325\t412329\t沒有話講但以現在實際的執行上來講你說已經超過50而且中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍數字我要跟署長報告一下我跟你說數字是冰冷的啦你剛剛講說46到56其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣這1XXX%很難說服大家但\n422891\t446881\t可以有一個很清楚的就是說因為弱勢他是可以抽兩次這個可能大家都不知道很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次所以他的中籤率就會比較高那我們如果說提高到50%我看可能提高到六成那你有一些青年人\n448134\t472130\t他可能就被排擠到囉一些青年可能就抽不到囉應該說青年那個族群是更大的一群但是他的種籤率又會越來越低他可能那個種數是更大的但是他可能種籤率會更低這也是我們比較擔憂另一類的排擠的問題我的意思說如果你提高到50%如果這樣的話青年那一塊可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛\n473311\t498320\t那所以啦 署長 我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題啦你覺不覺得啦 其實這個社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後 其實到現在啦雖然執政八年 但不可能第一年就做吧 要編預算要編什麼吧大概第二年第三年開始蓋嘛 對不對那到現在也大概有好幾年的時間了嘛 對不對\n500017\t522117\t署長 是有沒有需要一個總檢討的時候了就是我們推行一項政策大概一段時間了可不可以去檢討這個政策利弊得失然後我們去再稍微精進你覺得有時間點到了嗎對 根文報告也剛好差不多今年很多社宅都是第一輪\n522897\t536153\t已經就是六年已經處理完畢了已經出租完畢了那都已經進行第二輪那這也是剛好可以總結一些問題的涉宅直接新建涉宅的問題那以及來討論後續的解決對策\n538796\t563076\t所以這一個我們會找六都一起來討論看看他們對這一方面的政策甚至回饋到我們整個的直接興建社宅的要面對的問題來做一個總檢討這個部分我們會來進行實際上我真的覺得今天的很多的修法其實有一些觀點它是對的是出現了問題了\n564178\t588834\t但你們也說你們也在檢討也在做了我覺得啦與其我們這邊在這樣子我覺得要給你們時間你們弄出一套你們的想法你們的解決對策什麼的來給我們內政委員會然後讓大家來思考如何去改進你覺得可以嗎這個我想我們一定會來會朝這個方向來做可以啦好謝謝\n592847\t593310\t好 謝謝張宏祿 趙偉\n","txt":"那就不用動了啦部長麻煩囉我先請教署長其實我們現在所說的社會住宅大概有分成中央興建跟地方興建的兩大部分是不是\n是不是是是嘛好那中央的他的一些辦法跟地方的一些好個性式的辦法有沒有全國一致目前沒有因為各地方政府還會有他因地制宜的一些方法沒錯啦這個其實你說各地方要求跟中央我覺得也不盡合理\n你以這個我們雙北跟你比如說其他的一般的張化什麼的這不是六度的我看條件都不一樣這也不適合說全國都一致那問題來了署長我想請教一下那我們今天如果修這個住宅法可以解決我說的這些情況嗎事實上還是很難因為\n你太剛性的立法下去以後會讓他地方實務上可能會產生一些執行的困難所以我們才會覺得說比較需要多一點反而是透過行政措施或行政協商盡量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策是順利的在進行是通常會用這樣的方式來進行立法\n是一個很明確但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準這其實我覺得我們從這個點去思考可能就是會有很大的問題我想再繼續請教一下就是說我們現在解決住宅的問題應該是分成社會住宅一塊\n然後這個什麼租金補貼或什麼的這其實又是很重要的一塊我們目前台灣是不是大概比較重要是這兩塊來解決住宅的問題是其實基本上大概就是直接興建租金補貼跟包租代管三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群\n對啦,租金補貼跟包租代管,我認為它的性質比較一樣啦齁不然,我請教你一個就好了齁那你覺得這兩個,兩大支柱啊現在的運行起來,其實有沒有解決了大部分的問題了是不不,我請教一下部長謝謝委員現在除了直接興建住宅以外齁我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來互數\n已經高達八十五萬也就是說至少有八十五萬戶的人是接受政府的這個社會住宅或是租金補貼的一個協助而且都集中在都會地區比較多六都因為都會比較會需要這個也跟工作性質有關謝謝部長 部長你先回去坐那再來\n署長這剛剛布宅已經講了解決了大部分但我們必須要承認還有一些不還有一些問題沒有解決像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題在修法的裡面有可能關切一些議題比如說住宿宅的設宅的人我們現在是六年嘛最多嘛可能這個青年人\n6年他小孩子剛好要上小學了剛好又要搬遷其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊我不知道署長你的看法\n了解,應該是這麼說,因為有可能他入住的時候,他還單身或是剛要結婚所以他很可能在抽的時候,他去抽了這個單人房但是他已經遇到小孩子出生,要甚至要上小學,他開始要有分房的概念的時候其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已,他還有轉換房型的問題\n那這就會讓我們現在的這一個直接興建這樣的一個困境會出來就是說你成長的速度還不夠快但是你也面臨了下一輪的問題那所以這也是我們在過程當中一直希望透過像租金補貼包租貸款這一類的輔助性的措施\n提供更多的行政上的措施來協助他們你不是只有直接興建的可以選擇你也有其他的可以選擇那我們來強化那一個部分讓你在這個轉換的過程當中那當然社宅抽得到最好那抽不到你還有其他的方式來進行那這樣的話能夠讓他的居住的租屋的環境能夠更穩定我想這也是一個比較好的一個替代的做法\n再一個問題我們弱勢雖然我們現行的法律規定大概40%但實際上\n也實施好幾年啊他們實際上真正入住的比例是多少我們跟六都都有去調查過了那大概實際上的這個因為他除了弱勢戶以外他還可以抽一半戶所以他等於有兩支籤的機會那所以至少都已經是46到56之間也就是說都是弱勢46到50也就是說正式來講他已經過半了\n實務上他已經過半了所以這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法若他一樣握有兩支籤他就會可能掏垮六十幾甚至衝到七十這樣的問題會跑出來其實我為什麼要特別問這個問題\n其實弱勢的定義不一定只有他是中低收入戶其實我們的定義我們現在的法令來講他的範圍蠻廣的啦就弱勢是不是蠻廣的是嘛當然弱勢我們要特別照顧這個\n沒有話講但以現在實際的執行上來講你說已經超過50而且中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍數字我要跟署長報告一下我跟你說數字是冰冷的啦你剛剛講說46到56其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣這1XXX%很難說服大家但\n可以有一個很清楚的就是說因為弱勢他是可以抽兩次這個可能大家都不知道很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次所以他的中籤率就會比較高那我們如果說提高到50%我看可能提高到六成那你有一些青年人\n他可能就被排擠到囉一些青年可能就抽不到囉應該說青年那個族群是更大的一群但是他的種籤率又會越來越低他可能那個種數是更大的但是他可能種籤率會更低這也是我們比較擔憂另一類的排擠的問題我的意思說如果你提高到50%如果這樣的話青年那一塊可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛\n那所以啦 署長 我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題啦你覺不覺得啦 其實這個社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後 其實到現在啦雖然執政八年 但不可能第一年就做吧 要編預算要編什麼吧大概第二年第三年開始蓋嘛 對不對那到現在也大概有好幾年的時間了嘛 對不對\n署長 是有沒有需要一個總檢討的時候了就是我們推行一項政策大概一段時間了可不可以去檢討這個政策利弊得失然後我們去再稍微精進你覺得有時間點到了嗎對 根文報告也剛好差不多今年很多社宅都是第一輪\n已經就是六年已經處理完畢了已經出租完畢了那都已經進行第二輪那這也是剛好可以總結一些問題的涉宅直接新建涉宅的問題那以及來討論後續的解決對策\n所以這一個我們會找六都一起來討論看看他們對這一方面的政策甚至回饋到我們整個的直接興建社宅的要面對的問題來做一個總檢討這個部分我們會來進行實際上我真的覺得今天的很多的修法其實有一些觀點它是對的是出現了問題了\n但你們也說你們也在檢討也在做了我覺得啦與其我們這邊在這樣子我覺得要給你們時間你們弄出一套你們的想法你們的解決對策什麼的來給我們內政委員會然後讓大家來思考如何去改進你覺得可以嗎這個我想我們一定會來會朝這個方向來做可以啦好謝謝\n好 謝謝張宏祿 趙偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.164 --> 00:25.793\n那就不用動了啦部長麻煩囉我先請教署長其實我們現在所說的社會住宅大概有分成中央興建跟地方興建的兩大部分是不是\n\n00:28.064 --> 00:48.592\n是不是是是嘛好那中央的他的一些辦法跟地方的一些好個性式的辦法有沒有全國一致目前沒有因為各地方政府還會有他因地制宜的一些方法沒錯啦這個其實你說各地方要求跟中央我覺得也不盡合理\n\n00:49.232 --> 01:17.956\n你以這個我們雙北跟你比如說其他的一般的張化什麼的這不是六度的我看條件都不一樣這也不適合說全國都一致那問題來了署長我想請教一下那我們今天如果修這個住宅法可以解決我說的這些情況嗎事實上還是很難因為\n\n01:18.925 --> 01:44.118\n你太剛性的立法下去以後會讓他地方實務上可能會產生一些執行的困難所以我們才會覺得說比較需要多一點反而是透過行政措施或行政協商盡量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策是順利的在進行是通常會用這樣的方式來進行立法\n\n01:45.567 --> 02:09.720\n是一個很明確但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準這其實我覺得我們從這個點去思考可能就是會有很大的問題我想再繼續請教一下就是說我們現在解決住宅的問題應該是分成社會住宅一塊\n\n02:11.620 --> 02:33.155\n然後這個什麼租金補貼或什麼的這其實又是很重要的一塊我們目前台灣是不是大概比較重要是這兩塊來解決住宅的問題是其實基本上大概就是直接興建租金補貼跟包租代管三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群\n\n02:34.318 --> 03:01.197\n對啦,租金補貼跟包租代管,我認為它的性質比較一樣啦齁不然,我請教你一個就好了齁那你覺得這兩個,兩大支柱啊現在的運行起來,其實有沒有解決了大部分的問題了是不不,我請教一下部長謝謝委員現在除了直接興建住宅以外齁我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來互數\n\n03:02.950 --> 03:25.075\n已經高達八十五萬也就是說至少有八十五萬戶的人是接受政府的這個社會住宅或是租金補貼的一個協助而且都集中在都會地區比較多六都因為都會比較會需要這個也跟工作性質有關謝謝部長部長你先回去坐那再來\n\n03:31.843 --> 03:56.887\n署長這剛剛布宅已經講了解決了大部分但我們必須要承認還有一些不還有一些問題沒有解決像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題在修法的裡面有可能關切一些議題比如說住宿宅的設宅的人我們現在是六年嘛最多嘛可能這個青年人\n\n03:59.382 --> 04:11.968\n6年他小孩子剛好要上小學了剛好又要搬遷其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊我不知道署長你的看法\n\n04:12.472 --> 04:35.010\n了解,應該是這麼說,因為有可能他入住的時候,他還單身或是剛要結婚所以他很可能在抽的時候,他去抽了這個單人房但是他已經遇到小孩子出生,要甚至要上小學,他開始要有分房的概念的時候其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已,他還有轉換房型的問題\n\n04:35.911 --> 04:54.362\n那這就會讓我們現在的這一個直接興建這樣的一個困境會出來就是說你成長的速度還不夠快但是你也面臨了下一輪的問題那所以這也是我們在過程當中一直希望透過像租金補貼包租貸款這一類的輔助性的措施\n\n04:55.822 --> 05:20.544\n提供更多的行政上的措施來協助他們你不是只有直接興建的可以選擇你也有其他的可以選擇那我們來強化那一個部分讓你在這個轉換的過程當中那當然社宅抽得到最好那抽不到你還有其他的方式來進行那這樣的話能夠讓他的居住的租屋的環境能夠更穩定我想這也是一個比較好的一個替代的做法\n\n05:21.888 --> 05:27.518\n再一個問題我們弱勢雖然我們現行的法律規定大概40%但實際上\n\n05:32.813 --> 05:59.653\n也實施好幾年啊他們實際上真正入住的比例是多少我們跟六都都有去調查過了那大概實際上的這個因為他除了弱勢戶以外他還可以抽一半戶所以他等於有兩支籤的機會那所以至少都已經是46到56之間也就是說都是弱勢46到50也就是說正式來講他已經過半了\n\n06:01.600 --> 06:15.785\n實務上他已經過半了所以這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法若他一樣握有兩支籤他就會可能掏垮六十幾甚至衝到七十這樣的問題會跑出來其實我為什麼要特別問這個問題\n\n06:17.526 --> 06:31.942\n其實弱勢的定義不一定只有他是中低收入戶其實我們的定義我們現在的法令來講他的範圍蠻廣的啦就弱勢是不是蠻廣的是嘛當然弱勢我們要特別照顧這個\n\n06:33.325 --> 06:52.329\n沒有話講但以現在實際的執行上來講你說已經超過50而且中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍數字我要跟署長報告一下我跟你說數字是冰冷的啦你剛剛講說46到56其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣這1XXX%很難說服大家但\n\n07:02.891 --> 07:26.881\n可以有一個很清楚的就是說因為弱勢他是可以抽兩次這個可能大家都不知道很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次所以他的中籤率就會比較高那我們如果說提高到50%我看可能提高到六成那你有一些青年人\n\n07:28.134 --> 07:52.130\n他可能就被排擠到囉一些青年可能就抽不到囉應該說青年那個族群是更大的一群但是他的種籤率又會越來越低他可能那個種數是更大的但是他可能種籤率會更低這也是我們比較擔憂另一類的排擠的問題我的意思說如果你提高到50%如果這樣的話青年那一塊可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛\n\n07:53.311 --> 08:18.320\n那所以啦署長我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題啦你覺不覺得啦其實這個社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後其實到現在啦雖然執政八年但不可能第一年就做吧要編預算要編什麼吧大概第二年第三年開始蓋嘛對不對那到現在也大概有好幾年的時間了嘛對不對\n\n08:20.017 --> 08:42.117\n署長是有沒有需要一個總檢討的時候了就是我們推行一項政策大概一段時間了可不可以去檢討這個政策利弊得失然後我們去再稍微精進你覺得有時間點到了嗎對根文報告也剛好差不多今年很多社宅都是第一輪\n\n08:42.897 --> 08:56.153\n已經就是六年已經處理完畢了已經出租完畢了那都已經進行第二輪那這也是剛好可以總結一些問題的涉宅直接新建涉宅的問題那以及來討論後續的解決對策\n\n08:58.796 --> 09:23.076\n所以這一個我們會找六都一起來討論看看他們對這一方面的政策甚至回饋到我們整個的直接興建社宅的要面對的問題來做一個總檢討這個部分我們會來進行實際上我真的覺得今天的很多的修法其實有一些觀點它是對的是出現了問題了\n\n09:24.178 --> 09:48.834\n但你們也說你們也在檢討也在做了我覺得啦與其我們這邊在這樣子我覺得要給你們時間你們弄出一套你們的想法你們的解決對策什麼的來給我們內政委員會然後讓大家來思考如何去改進你覺得可以嗎這個我想我們一定會來會朝這個方向來做可以啦好謝謝\n\n09:52.847 --> 09:53.310\n好謝謝張宏祿趙偉\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.164,"end":25.793,"text":"那就不用動了啦部長麻煩囉我先請教署長其實我們現在所說的社會住宅大概有分成中央興建跟地方興建的兩大部分是不是"},{"start":28.064,"end":48.592,"text":"是不是是是嘛好那中央的他的一些辦法跟地方的一些好個性式的辦法有沒有全國一致目前沒有因為各地方政府還會有他因地制宜的一些方法沒錯啦這個其實你說各地方要求跟中央我覺得也不盡合理"},{"start":49.232,"end":77.956,"text":"你以這個我們雙北跟你比如說其他的一般的張化什麼的這不是六度的我看條件都不一樣這也不適合說全國都一致那問題來了署長我想請教一下那我們今天如果修這個住宅法可以解決我說的這些情況嗎事實上還是很難因為"},{"start":78.925,"end":104.118,"text":"你太剛性的立法下去以後會讓他地方實務上可能會產生一些執行的困難所以我們才會覺得說比較需要多一點反而是透過行政措施或行政協商盡量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策是順利的在進行是通常會用這樣的方式來進行立法"},{"start":105.567,"end":129.72,"text":"是一個很明確但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準這其實我覺得我們從這個點去思考可能就是會有很大的問題我想再繼續請教一下就是說我們現在解決住宅的問題應該是分成社會住宅一塊"},{"start":131.62,"end":153.155,"text":"然後這個什麼租金補貼或什麼的這其實又是很重要的一塊我們目前台灣是不是大概比較重要是這兩塊來解決住宅的問題是其實基本上大概就是直接興建租金補貼跟包租代管三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群"},{"start":154.318,"end":181.197,"text":"對啦,租金補貼跟包租代管,我認為它的性質比較一樣啦齁不然,我請教你一個就好了齁那你覺得這兩個,兩大支柱啊現在的運行起來,其實有沒有解決了大部分的問題了是不不,我請教一下部長謝謝委員現在除了直接興建住宅以外齁我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來互數"},{"start":182.95,"end":205.075,"text":"已經高達八十五萬也就是說至少有八十五萬戶的人是接受政府的這個社會住宅或是租金補貼的一個協助而且都集中在都會地區比較多六都因為都會比較會需要這個也跟工作性質有關謝謝部長 部長你先回去坐那再來"},{"start":211.843,"end":236.887,"text":"署長這剛剛布宅已經講了解決了大部分但我們必須要承認還有一些不還有一些問題沒有解決像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題在修法的裡面有可能關切一些議題比如說住宿宅的設宅的人我們現在是六年嘛最多嘛可能這個青年人"},{"start":239.382,"end":251.968,"text":"6年他小孩子剛好要上小學了剛好又要搬遷其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊我不知道署長你的看法"},{"start":252.472,"end":275.01,"text":"了解,應該是這麼說,因為有可能他入住的時候,他還單身或是剛要結婚所以他很可能在抽的時候,他去抽了這個單人房但是他已經遇到小孩子出生,要甚至要上小學,他開始要有分房的概念的時候其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已,他還有轉換房型的問題"},{"start":275.911,"end":294.362,"text":"那這就會讓我們現在的這一個直接興建這樣的一個困境會出來就是說你成長的速度還不夠快但是你也面臨了下一輪的問題那所以這也是我們在過程當中一直希望透過像租金補貼包租貸款這一類的輔助性的措施"},{"start":295.822,"end":320.544,"text":"提供更多的行政上的措施來協助他們你不是只有直接興建的可以選擇你也有其他的可以選擇那我們來強化那一個部分讓你在這個轉換的過程當中那當然社宅抽得到最好那抽不到你還有其他的方式來進行那這樣的話能夠讓他的居住的租屋的環境能夠更穩定我想這也是一個比較好的一個替代的做法"},{"start":321.888,"end":327.518,"text":"再一個問題我們弱勢雖然我們現行的法律規定大概40%但實際上"},{"start":332.813,"end":359.653,"text":"也實施好幾年啊他們實際上真正入住的比例是多少我們跟六都都有去調查過了那大概實際上的這個因為他除了弱勢戶以外他還可以抽一半戶所以他等於有兩支籤的機會那所以至少都已經是46到56之間也就是說都是弱勢46到50也就是說正式來講他已經過半了"},{"start":361.6,"end":375.785,"text":"實務上他已經過半了所以這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法若他一樣握有兩支籤他就會可能掏垮六十幾甚至衝到七十這樣的問題會跑出來其實我為什麼要特別問這個問題"},{"start":377.526,"end":391.942,"text":"其實弱勢的定義不一定只有他是中低收入戶其實我們的定義我們現在的法令來講他的範圍蠻廣的啦就弱勢是不是蠻廣的是嘛當然弱勢我們要特別照顧這個"},{"start":393.325,"end":412.329,"text":"沒有話講但以現在實際的執行上來講你說已經超過50而且中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍數字我要跟署長報告一下我跟你說數字是冰冷的啦你剛剛講說46到56其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣這1XXX%很難說服大家但"},{"start":422.891,"end":446.881,"text":"可以有一個很清楚的就是說因為弱勢他是可以抽兩次這個可能大家都不知道很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次所以他的中籤率就會比較高那我們如果說提高到50%我看可能提高到六成那你有一些青年人"},{"start":448.134,"end":472.13,"text":"他可能就被排擠到囉一些青年可能就抽不到囉應該說青年那個族群是更大的一群但是他的種籤率又會越來越低他可能那個種數是更大的但是他可能種籤率會更低這也是我們比較擔憂另一類的排擠的問題我的意思說如果你提高到50%如果這樣的話青年那一塊可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛"},{"start":473.311,"end":498.32,"text":"那所以啦 署長 我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題啦你覺不覺得啦 其實這個社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後 其實到現在啦雖然執政八年 但不可能第一年就做吧 要編預算要編什麼吧大概第二年第三年開始蓋嘛 對不對那到現在也大概有好幾年的時間了嘛 對不對"},{"start":500.017,"end":522.117,"text":"署長 是有沒有需要一個總檢討的時候了就是我們推行一項政策大概一段時間了可不可以去檢討這個政策利弊得失然後我們去再稍微精進你覺得有時間點到了嗎對 根文報告也剛好差不多今年很多社宅都是第一輪"},{"start":522.897,"end":536.153,"text":"已經就是六年已經處理完畢了已經出租完畢了那都已經進行第二輪那這也是剛好可以總結一些問題的涉宅直接新建涉宅的問題那以及來討論後續的解決對策"},{"start":538.796,"end":563.076,"text":"所以這一個我們會找六都一起來討論看看他們對這一方面的政策甚至回饋到我們整個的直接興建社宅的要面對的問題來做一個總檢討這個部分我們會來進行實際上我真的覺得今天的很多的修法其實有一些觀點它是對的是出現了問題了"},{"start":564.178,"end":588.834,"text":"但你們也說你們也在檢討也在做了我覺得啦與其我們這邊在這樣子我覺得要給你們時間你們弄出一套你們的想法你們的解決對策什麼的來給我們內政委員會然後讓大家來思考如何去改進你覺得可以嗎這個我想我們一定會來會朝這個方向來做可以啦好謝謝"},{"start":592.847,"end":593.31,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿 趙偉"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":430,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時30分）部長、署長就不用動了啦！"],["主席：好，部長麻煩了。"],["張委員宏陸：我先請教署長，其實我們現在所說的社會住宅，大概有分成中央興建跟地方興建的兩大部分，是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！中央的一些辦法，跟地方的各縣市的辦法，有沒有全國一致？"],["吳署長欣修：目前沒有，因為各地方政府還會有它因地制宜的一些方法。"],["張委員宏陸：沒錯啦，其實你說各地方要求跟中央一致，我覺得也不盡合理。你以我們雙北跟其他一般非六都，譬如彰化之類，我看條件都不一樣，也不適合全國都一致啦！問題來了，署長，我想請教，我們今天如果修住宅法，可以解決我說的這些情況嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：事實上還是很難啦！因為太剛性的立法下去以後，實務上可能會讓地方產生一些執行的困難，所以我們才會覺得反而比較需要透過多一點行政措施或行政協商，儘量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求，但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策順利的進行，通常會用這樣的方式進行。"],["張委員宏陸：立法是很明確的，但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得我們從這個點去思考，可能就是會有很大的問題啦！我想繼續請教，我們現在解決住宅的問題，應該是分成社會住宅一塊，然後租金補貼或什麼的，這其實又是很重要的另一塊，臺灣目前比較重要的，大概是用這兩塊來解決住宅的問題，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是，基本上大概就是直接興建、租金補貼跟包租代管，三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，租金補貼跟包租代管，我認為它的性質比較一樣啦！部長，我請教你一個問題就好，你覺得這兩大支柱，現在運行起來有沒有解決大部分的問題了？我請教一下部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。現在除了直接興建住宅以外，我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來戶數已經高達85萬，也就是至少有85萬戶的人是接受政府的社會住宅或者租金補貼的協助，而且都集中在都會地區還有六都比較多。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，因為都會區比較需要。"],["劉部長世芳：對，也跟工作性質有關。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝部長，部長先回去坐。再來，署長，剛剛部長已經講解決了大部分的問題，但我們必須要承認，還有一些問題還沒有解決啦！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題，在修法裡面也有關切一些議題，比如說住社宅的人，我們現在租期最多是6年嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：青年住6年，他的小孩子剛好要上小學了，剛好又要搬遷，其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊吧！我不知道署長您的看法？"],["吳署長欣修：了解，應該是這麼說，因為有可能他入住的時候還單身或是剛要結婚，所以在抽的時候他去抽了單人房，但是他已經遇到小孩子出生，甚至要上小學，開始要有分房的概念，其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已，還有轉換房型的問題，就會讓我們現在直接興建這樣的困境出現，就是社宅成長的速度還不夠快，但是也面臨了下一輪的問題。所以這也是我們在過程當中，一直希望透過像租金補貼、包租代管這一類輔助性的措施，提供更多行政上的措施來協助他們，不是只有直接興建的可以選擇，也有其他的可以選擇。我們來強化那一個部分，讓民眾在轉換的過程當中，當然社宅抽得到最好，抽不到還有其他的方式來進行，這樣能夠讓他居住的、租屋的環境能夠更穩定，我想這也是一個比較好的替代作法。"],["張委員宏陸：好。再一個問題，雖然我們現行法律規定至少40%以上比率要租給弱勢，也實施好幾年了，實際上他們真正入住的比例是多少？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們大概跟六都都有去調查過了，實際上因為他除了弱勢戶以外，還可以抽一般戶，所以他等於有兩支籤的機會，至少都已經是46%到56%之間，也就是說弱勢有46%到56%，正式來講在實務上已經過半了。這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法，如果他一樣握有兩支籤，可能會超過百分之六十幾，甚至衝到70%，有這樣的問題會跑出來。"],["張委員宏陸：我為什麼特別問這個問題，其實弱勢的定義不一定只有中低收入戶，我們的定義，依現在的法令來講，它的範圍滿廣的啦，就弱勢而言是不是滿廣的？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛，當然弱勢我們要特別照顧，這個沒有話講，但以現在實際的執行來講，你說已經超過五十……"],["吳署長欣修：而且中籤率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍。"],["張委員宏陸：我要跟署長報告一下，數字是冰冷的啦！你剛剛講46%到56%，其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣，差了10%很難說服大家啦！但有一個很清楚的，就是弱勢可以抽兩次，這個可能大家都不知道，可能很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次的，所以他的中籤率就會比較高。我們如果提高到50%或可能提高到六成，有一些青年可能就會被排擠到囉？一些青年可能就抽不到囉？"],["吳署長欣修：應該說青年那一個族群是更大的一群，但是他的中籤率會越來越低。青年的總數是更大的，但是他中籤率可能會更低，這也是我們比較擔憂另一類排擠的問題。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，我的意思是說，如果你提高到50%這樣的話，青年那一塊，可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以署長，我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題，你覺不覺得社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後，到現在雖然執政8年，但不可能第1年就做吧！要編預算、要編什麼的，大概第2年、第3年開始蓋，到現在大概也好幾年的時間了，對不對？署長，有沒有到需要做總檢討的時候了？我們推行一項政策一段時間了，可不可以去檢討這個政策的利弊得失，然後我們再稍微精進，你覺得時間點到了嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對，跟委員報告，也剛好差不多今年很多社宅都是第一輪，就是6年已經處理完畢、已經出租完畢，都已經進行第二輪，這也剛好可以總結一些直接興建社宅的問題，以及討論後續的解決對策。所以我們會找六都一起來討論，看看他們對於這一方面的政策，甚至回饋到我們整個直接興建社宅要面對的問題來做一個總檢討，這個部分我們會來進行。"],["張委員宏陸：因為時間的關係，我真的覺得今天很多的修法，其實有一些觀點是對的，的確是出現問題了，但你們也說你們有在檢討、有在做了。我覺得與其我們這樣修法，應該要給你們時間，弄出一套你們的想法、你們的解決對策給內政委員會，然後讓大家來思考如何改進，你覺得可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我想我們一定會朝這個方向來做。"],["張委員宏陸：可以啦？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}}