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{\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,990 --> 00:00:01,812\n好主席謝謝麻煩請黃部長請部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,117 --> 00:00:38,710\n好部長好治安法的修法我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本那就是代表是說對國家安全來講我們責無旁貸但有幾個部分我想還是要跟你進一步的就教也落實說到底我們治安法修法之後能不能真的達成我們訴發部所要達到的一個目的所以首先我們看到是說現在的一個未來的集合以及公務機關的這些集合等等都會由我們治安署這邊來負責對不對\n\n3\n00:00:40,372 --> 00:00:50,113\n那治安署的這個集合因為所有公務機關不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要來負責的話那這樣子我們的人力夠不夠\n\n4\n00:00:51,393 --> 00:01:15,516\n我們治安署當然就是說這方面目前我們是有每一年至少集合40個單位40個單位至少40個單位那當然未來但現在納入來之後是全部的公務機關都要所有的我們現在A級機關如果連飛特定飛公務機關加起來應該有90個單位90個單位每年大概96個單位嘛96個單位所以我們當然就只要等於是一倍多的業務量\n\n5\n00:01:17,258 --> 00:01:42,634\n我看到你們第32條還講是說得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家自通安全防護的演練跟集合所以你們未來還會再委託出去因為中央事業目的主管機關他們對他們自己下面比如說像台電油水電這些公司應該像經濟部就會去那本席要問的問題是說那這些人員有可能他是最了解整個國家公務機關的這些資訊\n\n6\n00:01:44,515 --> 00:02:11,648\n安全機密的部分那他們的查核就相對重要了也是要有特殊查核對不對也是要有特殊查核好我們來看一下現在特殊查核是有相關規定的我找到下一頁仁氏行政總署他也在去年的12月的時候又再把特殊查核的職務依然表再秀出來那其中本席看到來上頁我們資安資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上\n\n7\n00:02:12,938 --> 00:02:14,649\n是要經過特殊查核的\n\n8\n00:02:16,141 --> 00:02:43,271\n但是就如同我們最近在講外交部的這個資義的事件他的職等沒有到很高可是他要經手是部長的外交行程也因此當一個資義長期在部長旁邊然後拿到相關的資料的時候他流出去的機密不知道多少他的變成在政府底下變成是一個共諜那他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣\n\n9\n00:02:44,859 --> 00:02:56,838\n來那我請教未來我們是不是要把我們相關的這些集合人員也要放入因為現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量他就說不是用職等來區分而是用他經手的業務來區分\n\n10\n00:02:58,721 --> 00:03:25,969\n這個我想這個我們再進一步去在部裡面根據行政院的規定我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改不是啊部長我們現在就是已經在討論到修法了如果說未來這個修法通過之後馬上就是變成是我們速發部資安署的業務那資安署馬上就要上路了我也看到你們講是說你們的集合的方式是要報行政院來核定但是總是這些都要先預想啊那個我請那個署長再來簡單說明一下\n\n11\n00:03:28,952 --> 00:03:53,163\n謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想剛剛委員提到的適應性查核或是特殊查核其實非常的重要那我跟委員報告一下那在治安署裡面的確剛剛委員所講的在科長級以上的主管是要做一些特殊查核但是我們是根據業務的一些涉及到機敏性來決定查核的範圍例如說在我們通報應變組裡面它所有同仁就要做查核就是根據這個組它的特性\n\n12\n00:03:54,784 --> 00:04:13,652\n那您的法源依據咧?但目前為止我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂特殊查核那這個特殊查核表示報出去之後由法務部調查局來做特殊查核那你說其他人員是誰來做特殊查核?也是請一個法務部調查局那您的法源依據在哪裡?那這不是要法源依據這個是實現規則你要報那你的人員的名單你要報啊如果說你沒有報的話你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局\n\n13\n00:04:20,495 --> 00:04:39,806\n我們會報人員跟職務的這個職稱是啊那你現在報了嗎就是我們的通報應變組他這組因為他涉及到其他機敏的相關的一些資訊所以他人員就會做一些適應性的這個特殊查核我現在問的是說報了沒我們應該是有報不是不是應該來部長部長\n\n14\n00:04:48,980 --> 00:05:14,973\n那個現在已經有報過了對就是我們像有一些特殊性的一些組我們就有特別要求做一些比較重要的這些所以未來去集合的人員都有特殊查核對未來的部分就是我們會增加適任性查核適任性查核指的是一般查核就是根據公務人員的利用法的第四條那再加上那是一般查核嘛但是我們現在講是說各\n\n15\n00:05:18,015 --> 00:05:37,397\n本席現在提出來就是要因為外交部的這個事件大家才看到是說當一個資義他可以守今守部長的行程相關的時候結果他只有查過一次就他到任的時候的一般查核但是他的精明程度精守的程度非常的高\n\n16\n00:05:39,349 --> 00:06:01,675\n一樣嘛如果說未來我們的資訊安全都是由我們治安署來查核總統府也是治安署五院也是治安署那他們可能99%的同仁都非常好但只要有一個害群之馬只要有一個老鼠屎的話他就有可能經手的資料出去的東西是破口是漏洞\n\n17\n00:06:02,435 --> 00:06:25,152\n所以本席才會提出來是說到目前為止只有這個部分那未來是不是應該要增加那還有這個是公務人員任用法那如果說未來有委託委外有非公務人員的如果是委外的話我們那個治安法裡面的實行細則裡面對委外人員涉及到國家經濟的等等相關的部分也要做一些試驗性查核\n\n18\n00:06:25,598 --> 00:06:50,748\n有編列在這個治安法裡面嗎目前的新的細節裡面就有這個部分好OK來那部長我再請教所以部長這個部分是本席特別提出來請在修法的過程裡面也一併要納入考量因為既然要做就不要有任何的漏洞那另外第二個部分危害全國家的資通安全產品我看到我們在第11條新增就是過去沒有法源一句我們把它給法源一句話\n\n19\n00:06:52,969 --> 00:07:21,090\n2023年那個時候有講說我們現在差不多公務機關有上千項的產品軟硬體上千項是禁用的那未來我們的這個法制化之後這一個清單會不會出來那個鮑委員因為這種東西產品一直在變而且它可能會棄產地所以我們不會給清單但是我們會隨時在審查跟通報但是這樣子我們的所有公務機關大家能不能夠掌握跟了解我們會通報所以會有個database\n\n20\n00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:49,973\n會有Database會持續的Update嘛因為本席有看到其實更重要譬如說啦上上個月那個人工智慧的軟體中國大陸製馬上我們之前也下令是說不准公務機關使用嘛那所以未來軟體的部分我們會適時的增添會審查然後檢驗跟通報就是會有個通報的一個Database所以依照這個相關法的依據適時的增添但是所有的公務機關以及\n\n21\n00:07:51,534 --> 00:08:11,444\n列管的重要的非公務機關也都會掌握所以不會有誤用的狀況應該不會我們會落實這個審查之前有媒體有問到是說那到目前為止因為既然我們現在要修法嘛那過去可能有用的地方那現在有沒有全部都盤查現在所有機關都沒有用了\n\n22\n00:08:12,731 --> 00:08:23,525\n這個有沒有落實因為之前媒體報導講的是說有一些產品它可能有特殊無可取代性所以說還沒有辦法完全的進行所以到目前為止我們現在掌握的狀況如何是謝謝委員剛剛的這個指導我想的確是\n\n23\n00:08:30,012 --> 00:08:45,902\n我們有一些禁止使用的原則但是有一些例外原則例如說在一些教學或是研究的現場等等的那這些如果有需要的話一定要報部裡面同意之後在一些安全管控的環境之下例如說不能連公務的環境等等管控之下才可以使用\n\n24\n00:08:47,050 --> 00:09:07,936\n那報部裡面同意組長所以我現在只是想問一件事啦就是這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員因為我聽過他太多次他都在質詢同一件事情我只想問我們現在清查了會不會再過一個月兩個月之後又報出哪一個部會用了我們的這個禁止列管的禁止的產品\n\n25\n00:09:10,218 --> 00:09:29,459\n我們現在有沒有全面清查因為給你們兩年的時間喔2023年開始我們也到現在2025年了你現在要修這個治安法那我們也同意我們也認為是說應該要加強我們國家的安全維護那但是現在通盤的去做檢驗除了有些特殊的有特殊報\n\n26\n00:09:31,821 --> 00:09:55,054\n備註書面你們有列管以外到底現在有沒有跟委員報告我們每人都有清查就是政府機關有沒有使用到這些不敢掛保證但每人都有清查然後如果他例外要使用的話都要報裡面來特別的根據他的理由來核准等等剛剛已經跟委員報告過了市長你沒有回答到我的問題你是個聰明人但是你不敢回答我這個問題\n\n27\n00:09:56,334 --> 00:10:17,669\n目前我想我們都有在清查這方面是有沒有使用部長不好意思一句話啦資安大家都關心不分朝野不分黨派但重點在於是落實我覺得科技日新萬億但是重點落實才能夠防止因為我覺得最重點還是人性\n\n28\n00:10:18,635 --> 00:10:35,200\n這一點請部長這邊好好的我們之後逐條審查的時候會好好的逐條審查有委員不同版本有提出來跟我們行政院有多一些更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方也拜託我們肅發部真的要用開放的態度來做一起的思考謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n990\t1812\t好 主席謝謝 麻煩請黃部長請部長\n10117\t38710\t好 部長好 治安法的修法我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本那就是代表是說對國家安全來講我們責無旁貸但有幾個部分我想還是要跟你進一步的就教也落實說到底我們治安法修法之後能不能真的達成我們訴發部所要達到的一個目的所以首先我們看到是說現在的一個未來的集合以及公務機關的這些集合等等都會由我們治安署這邊來負責對不對\n40372\t50113\t那治安署的這個集合因為所有公務機關不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要來負責的話那這樣子我們的人力夠不夠\n51393\t75516\t我們治安署當然就是說這方面目前我們是有每一年至少集合40個單位40個單位至少40個單位那當然未來但現在納入來之後是全部的公務機關都要所有的我們現在A級機關如果連飛特定飛公務機關加起來應該有90個單位90個單位每年大概96個單位嘛96個單位所以我們當然就只要等於是一倍多的業務量\n77258\t102634\t我看到你們第32條還講是說得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家自通安全防護的演練跟集合所以你們未來還會再委託出去因為中央事業目的主管機關他們對他們自己下面比如說像台電油水電這些公司應該像經濟部就會去那本席要問的問題是說那這些人員有可能他是最了解整個國家公務機關的這些資訊\n104515\t131648\t安全機密的部分那他們的查核就相對重要了也是要有特殊查核對不對也是要有特殊查核好我們來看一下現在特殊查核是有相關規定的我找到下一頁仁氏行政總署他也在去年的12月的時候又再把特殊查核的職務依然表再秀出來那其中本席看到來上頁我們資安資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上\n132938\t134649\t是要經過特殊查核的\n136141\t163271\t但是就如同我們最近在講外交部的這個資義的事件他的職等沒有到很高可是他要經手是部長的外交行程也因此當一個資義長期在部長旁邊然後拿到相關的資料的時候他流出去的機密不知道多少他的變成在政府底下變成是一個共諜那他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣\n164859\t176838\t來 那我請教未來我們是不是要把我們相關的這些集合人員也要放入因為現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量他就說不是用職等來區分而是用他經手的業務來區分\n178721\t205969\t這個我想這個我們再進一步去在部裡面根據行政院的規定我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改不是啊部長我們現在就是已經在討論到修法了如果說未來這個修法通過之後馬上就是變成是我們速發部資安署的業務那資安署馬上就要上路了我也看到你們講是說你們的集合的方式是要報行政院來核定但是總是這些都要先預想啊那個我請那個署長再來簡單說明一下\n208952\t233163\t謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想剛剛委員提到的適應性查核或是特殊查核其實非常的重要那我跟委員報告一下那在治安署裡面的確剛剛委員所講的在科長級以上的主管是要做一些特殊查核但是我們是根據業務的一些涉及到機敏性來決定查核的範圍例如說在我們通報應變組裡面它所有同仁就要做查核就是根據這個組它的特性\n234784\t253652\t那您的法源依據咧?但目前為止我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂特殊查核那這個特殊查核表示報出去之後由法務部調查局來做特殊查核那你說其他人員是誰來做特殊查核?也是請一個法務部調查局那您的法源依據在哪裡?那這不是要法源依據這個是實現規則你要報那你的人員的名單你要報啊如果說你沒有報的話你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局\n260495\t279806\t我們會報人員跟職務的這個職稱是啊那你現在報了嗎就是我們的通報應變組他這組因為他涉及到其他機敏的相關的一些資訊所以他人員就會做一些適應性的這個特殊查核我現在問的是說報了沒我們應該是有報不是不是應該來 部長部長\n288980\t314973\t那個現在已經有報過了對就是我們像有一些特殊性的一些組我們就有特別要求做一些比較重要的這些所以未來去集合的人員都有特殊查核對 未來的部分就是我們會增加適任性查核適任性查核指的是一般查核就是根據公務人員的利用法的第四條那再加上那是一般查核嘛但是我們現在講是說各\n318015\t337397\t本席現在提出來就是要因為外交部的這個事件大家才看到是說當一個資義他可以守今守部長的行程相關的時候結果他只有查過一次就他到任的時候的一般查核但是他的精明程度 精守的程度非常的高\n339349\t361675\t一樣嘛 如果說未來我們的資訊安全都是由我們治安署來查核總統府也是治安署 五院也是治安署那他們可能99%的同仁都非常好但只要有一個害群之馬 只要有一個老鼠屎的話他就有可能經手的資料出去的東西是破口 是漏洞\n362435\t385152\t所以本席才會提出來是說到目前為止只有這個部分那未來是不是應該要增加那還有這個是公務人員任用法那如果說未來有委託委外有非公務人員的如果是委外的話我們那個治安法裡面的實行細則裡面對委外人員涉及到國家經濟的等等相關的部分也要做一些試驗性查核\n385598\t410748\t有編列在這個治安法裡面嗎目前的新的細節裡面就有這個部分好OK來那部長我再請教所以部長這個部分是本席特別提出來請在修法的過程裡面也一併要納入考量因為既然要做就不要有任何的漏洞那另外第二個部分危害全國家的資通安全產品我看到我們在第11條新增就是過去沒有法源一句我們把它給法源一句話\n412969\t441090\t2023年那個時候有講說我們現在差不多公務機關有上千項的產品軟硬體上千項是禁用的那未來我們的這個法制化之後這一個清單會不會出來那個 鮑委員因為這種東西產品一直在變而且它可能會棄產地所以我們不會給清單但是我們會隨時在審查跟通報但是這樣子我們的所有公務機關大家能不能夠掌握跟了解我們會通報所以會有個database\n441810\t469973\t會有Database會持續的Update嘛因為本席有看到其實更重要譬如說啦上上個月那個人工智慧的軟體中國大陸製馬上我們之前也下令是說不准公務機關使用嘛那所以未來軟體的部分我們會適時的增添會審查然後檢驗跟通報就是會有個通報的一個Database所以依照這個相關法的依據適時的增添但是所有的公務機關以及\n471534\t491444\t列管的重要的非公務機關也都會掌握所以不會有誤用的狀況應該不會我們會落實這個審查之前有媒體有問到是說那到目前為止因為既然我們現在要修法嘛那過去可能有用的地方那現在有沒有全部都盤查現在所有機關都沒有用了\n492731\t503525\t這個有沒有落實因為之前媒體報導講的是說有一些產品它可能有特殊無可取代性所以說還沒有辦法完全的進行所以到目前為止我們現在掌握的狀況如何是 謝謝委員剛剛的這個指導我想的確是\n510012\t525902\t我們有一些禁止使用的原則但是有一些例外原則例如說在一些教學或是研究的現場等等的那這些如果有需要的話一定要報部裡面同意之後在一些安全管控的環境之下例如說不能連公務的環境等等管控之下才可以使用\n527050\t547936\t那報部裡面同意組長所以我現在只是想問一件事啦就是這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員因為我聽過他太多次他都在質詢同一件事情我只想問我們現在清查了會不會再過一個月兩個月之後又報出哪一個部會用了我們的這個禁止列管的禁止的產品\n550218\t569459\t我們現在有沒有全面清查因為給你們兩年的時間喔2023年開始我們也到現在2025年了你現在要修這個治安法那我們也同意我們也認為是說應該要加強我們國家的安全維護那但是現在通盤的去做檢驗除了有些特殊的有特殊報\n571821\t595054\t備註書面你們有列管以外到底現在有沒有跟委員報告我們每人都有清查就是政府機關有沒有使用到這些不敢掛保證但每人都有清查然後如果他例外要使用的話都要報裡面來特別的根據他的理由來核准等等剛剛已經跟委員報告過了市長你沒有回答到我的問題你是個聰明人但是你不敢回答我這個問題\n596334\t617669\t目前我想我們都有在清查這方面是有沒有使用部長 不好意思 一句話啦資安大家都關心 不分朝野 不分黨派但重點在於是落實我覺得科技日新萬億但是重點落實才能夠防止因為我覺得最重點還是人性\n618635\t635200\t這一點請部長這邊好好的我們之後逐條審查的時候會好好的逐條審查有委員不同版本有提出來跟我們行政院有多一些更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方也拜託我們肅發部真的要用開放的態度來做一起的思考謝謝\n","txt":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請黃部長請部長\n好 部長好 治安法的修法我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本那就是代表是說對國家安全來講我們責無旁貸但有幾個部分我想還是要跟你進一步的就教也落實說到底我們治安法修法之後能不能真的達成我們訴發部所要達到的一個目的所以首先我們看到是說現在的一個未來的集合以及公務機關的這些集合等等都會由我們治安署這邊來負責對不對\n那治安署的這個集合因為所有公務機關不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要來負責的話那這樣子我們的人力夠不夠\n我們治安署當然就是說這方面目前我們是有每一年至少集合40個單位40個單位至少40個單位那當然未來但現在納入來之後是全部的公務機關都要所有的我們現在A級機關如果連飛特定飛公務機關加起來應該有90個單位90個單位每年大概96個單位嘛96個單位所以我們當然就只要等於是一倍多的業務量\n我看到你們第32條還講是說得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家自通安全防護的演練跟集合所以你們未來還會再委託出去因為中央事業目的主管機關他們對他們自己下面比如說像台電油水電這些公司應該像經濟部就會去那本席要問的問題是說那這些人員有可能他是最了解整個國家公務機關的這些資訊\n安全機密的部分那他們的查核就相對重要了也是要有特殊查核對不對也是要有特殊查核好我們來看一下現在特殊查核是有相關規定的我找到下一頁仁氏行政總署他也在去年的12月的時候又再把特殊查核的職務依然表再秀出來那其中本席看到來上頁我們資安資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上\n是要經過特殊查核的\n但是就如同我們最近在講外交部的這個資義的事件他的職等沒有到很高可是他要經手是部長的外交行程也因此當一個資義長期在部長旁邊然後拿到相關的資料的時候他流出去的機密不知道多少他的變成在政府底下變成是一個共諜那他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣\n來 那我請教未來我們是不是要把我們相關的這些集合人員也要放入因為現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量他就說不是用職等來區分而是用他經手的業務來區分\n這個我想這個我們再進一步去在部裡面根據行政院的規定我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改不是啊部長我們現在就是已經在討論到修法了如果說未來這個修法通過之後馬上就是變成是我們速發部資安署的業務那資安署馬上就要上路了我也看到你們講是說你們的集合的方式是要報行政院來核定但是總是這些都要先預想啊那個我請那個署長再來簡單說明一下\n謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想剛剛委員提到的適應性查核或是特殊查核其實非常的重要那我跟委員報告一下那在治安署裡面的確剛剛委員所講的在科長級以上的主管是要做一些特殊查核但是我們是根據業務的一些涉及到機敏性來決定查核的範圍例如說在我們通報應變組裡面它所有同仁就要做查核就是根據這個組它的特性\n那您的法源依據咧?但目前為止我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂特殊查核那這個特殊查核表示報出去之後由法務部調查局來做特殊查核那你說其他人員是誰來做特殊查核?也是請一個法務部調查局那您的法源依據在哪裡?那這不是要法源依據這個是實現規則你要報那你的人員的名單你要報啊如果說你沒有報的話你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局\n我們會報人員跟職務的這個職稱是啊那你現在報了嗎就是我們的通報應變組他這組因為他涉及到其他機敏的相關的一些資訊所以他人員就會做一些適應性的這個特殊查核我現在問的是說報了沒我們應該是有報不是不是應該來 部長部長\n那個現在已經有報過了對就是我們像有一些特殊性的一些組我們就有特別要求做一些比較重要的這些所以未來去集合的人員都有特殊查核對 未來的部分就是我們會增加適任性查核適任性查核指的是一般查核就是根據公務人員的利用法的第四條那再加上那是一般查核嘛但是我們現在講是說各\n本席現在提出來就是要因為外交部的這個事件大家才看到是說當一個資義他可以守今守部長的行程相關的時候結果他只有查過一次就他到任的時候的一般查核但是他的精明程度 精守的程度非常的高\n一樣嘛 如果說未來我們的資訊安全都是由我們治安署來查核總統府也是治安署 五院也是治安署那他們可能99%的同仁都非常好但只要有一個害群之馬 只要有一個老鼠屎的話他就有可能經手的資料出去的東西是破口 是漏洞\n所以本席才會提出來是說到目前為止只有這個部分那未來是不是應該要增加那還有這個是公務人員任用法那如果說未來有委託委外有非公務人員的如果是委外的話我們那個治安法裡面的實行細則裡面對委外人員涉及到國家經濟的等等相關的部分也要做一些試驗性查核\n有編列在這個治安法裡面嗎目前的新的細節裡面就有這個部分好OK來那部長我再請教所以部長這個部分是本席特別提出來請在修法的過程裡面也一併要納入考量因為既然要做就不要有任何的漏洞那另外第二個部分危害全國家的資通安全產品我看到我們在第11條新增就是過去沒有法源一句我們把它給法源一句話\n2023年那個時候有講說我們現在差不多公務機關有上千項的產品軟硬體上千項是禁用的那未來我們的這個法制化之後這一個清單會不會出來那個 鮑委員因為這種東西產品一直在變而且它可能會棄產地所以我們不會給清單但是我們會隨時在審查跟通報但是這樣子我們的所有公務機關大家能不能夠掌握跟了解我們會通報所以會有個database\n會有Database會持續的Update嘛因為本席有看到其實更重要譬如說啦上上個月那個人工智慧的軟體中國大陸製馬上我們之前也下令是說不准公務機關使用嘛那所以未來軟體的部分我們會適時的增添會審查然後檢驗跟通報就是會有個通報的一個Database所以依照這個相關法的依據適時的增添但是所有的公務機關以及\n列管的重要的非公務機關也都會掌握所以不會有誤用的狀況應該不會我們會落實這個審查之前有媒體有問到是說那到目前為止因為既然我們現在要修法嘛那過去可能有用的地方那現在有沒有全部都盤查現在所有機關都沒有用了\n這個有沒有落實因為之前媒體報導講的是說有一些產品它可能有特殊無可取代性所以說還沒有辦法完全的進行所以到目前為止我們現在掌握的狀況如何是 謝謝委員剛剛的這個指導我想的確是\n我們有一些禁止使用的原則但是有一些例外原則例如說在一些教學或是研究的現場等等的那這些如果有需要的話一定要報部裡面同意之後在一些安全管控的環境之下例如說不能連公務的環境等等管控之下才可以使用\n那報部裡面同意組長所以我現在只是想問一件事啦就是這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員因為我聽過他太多次他都在質詢同一件事情我只想問我們現在清查了會不會再過一個月兩個月之後又報出哪一個部會用了我們的這個禁止列管的禁止的產品\n我們現在有沒有全面清查因為給你們兩年的時間喔2023年開始我們也到現在2025年了你現在要修這個治安法那我們也同意我們也認為是說應該要加強我們國家的安全維護那但是現在通盤的去做檢驗除了有些特殊的有特殊報\n備註書面你們有列管以外到底現在有沒有跟委員報告我們每人都有清查就是政府機關有沒有使用到這些不敢掛保證但每人都有清查然後如果他例外要使用的話都要報裡面來特別的根據他的理由來核准等等剛剛已經跟委員報告過了市長你沒有回答到我的問題你是個聰明人但是你不敢回答我這個問題\n目前我想我們都有在清查這方面是有沒有使用部長 不好意思 一句話啦資安大家都關心 不分朝野 不分黨派但重點在於是落實我覺得科技日新萬億但是重點落實才能夠防止因為我覺得最重點還是人性\n這一點請部長這邊好好的我們之後逐條審查的時候會好好的逐條審查有委員不同版本有提出來跟我們行政院有多一些更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方也拜託我們肅發部真的要用開放的態度來做一起的思考謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.990 --> 00:01.812\n好主席謝謝麻煩請黃部長請部長\n\n00:10.117 --> 00:38.710\n好部長好治安法的修法我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本那就是代表是說對國家安全來講我們責無旁貸但有幾個部分我想還是要跟你進一步的就教也落實說到底我們治安法修法之後能不能真的達成我們訴發部所要達到的一個目的所以首先我們看到是說現在的一個未來的集合以及公務機關的這些集合等等都會由我們治安署這邊來負責對不對\n\n00:40.372 --> 00:50.113\n那治安署的這個集合因為所有公務機關不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要來負責的話那這樣子我們的人力夠不夠\n\n00:51.393 --> 01:15.516\n我們治安署當然就是說這方面目前我們是有每一年至少集合40個單位40個單位至少40個單位那當然未來但現在納入來之後是全部的公務機關都要所有的我們現在A級機關如果連飛特定飛公務機關加起來應該有90個單位90個單位每年大概96個單位嘛96個單位所以我們當然就只要等於是一倍多的業務量\n\n01:17.258 --> 01:42.634\n我看到你們第32條還講是說得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家自通安全防護的演練跟集合所以你們未來還會再委託出去因為中央事業目的主管機關他們對他們自己下面比如說像台電油水電這些公司應該像經濟部就會去那本席要問的問題是說那這些人員有可能他是最了解整個國家公務機關的這些資訊\n\n01:44.515 --> 02:11.648\n安全機密的部分那他們的查核就相對重要了也是要有特殊查核對不對也是要有特殊查核好我們來看一下現在特殊查核是有相關規定的我找到下一頁仁氏行政總署他也在去年的12月的時候又再把特殊查核的職務依然表再秀出來那其中本席看到來上頁我們資安資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上\n\n02:12.938 --> 02:14.649\n是要經過特殊查核的\n\n02:16.141 --> 02:43.271\n但是就如同我們最近在講外交部的這個資義的事件他的職等沒有到很高可是他要經手是部長的外交行程也因此當一個資義長期在部長旁邊然後拿到相關的資料的時候他流出去的機密不知道多少他的變成在政府底下變成是一個共諜那他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣\n\n02:44.859 --> 02:56.838\n來那我請教未來我們是不是要把我們相關的這些集合人員也要放入因為現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量他就說不是用職等來區分而是用他經手的業務來區分\n\n02:58.721 --> 03:25.969\n這個我想這個我們再進一步去在部裡面根據行政院的規定我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改不是啊部長我們現在就是已經在討論到修法了如果說未來這個修法通過之後馬上就是變成是我們速發部資安署的業務那資安署馬上就要上路了我也看到你們講是說你們的集合的方式是要報行政院來核定但是總是這些都要先預想啊那個我請那個署長再來簡單說明一下\n\n03:28.952 --> 03:53.163\n謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想剛剛委員提到的適應性查核或是特殊查核其實非常的重要那我跟委員報告一下那在治安署裡面的確剛剛委員所講的在科長級以上的主管是要做一些特殊查核但是我們是根據業務的一些涉及到機敏性來決定查核的範圍例如說在我們通報應變組裡面它所有同仁就要做查核就是根據這個組它的特性\n\n03:54.784 --> 04:13.652\n那您的法源依據咧?但目前為止我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂特殊查核那這個特殊查核表示報出去之後由法務部調查局來做特殊查核那你說其他人員是誰來做特殊查核?也是請一個法務部調查局那您的法源依據在哪裡?那這不是要法源依據這個是實現規則你要報那你的人員的名單你要報啊如果說你沒有報的話你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局\n\n04:20.495 --> 04:39.806\n我們會報人員跟職務的這個職稱是啊那你現在報了嗎就是我們的通報應變組他這組因為他涉及到其他機敏的相關的一些資訊所以他人員就會做一些適應性的這個特殊查核我現在問的是說報了沒我們應該是有報不是不是應該來部長部長\n\n04:48.980 --> 05:14.973\n那個現在已經有報過了對就是我們像有一些特殊性的一些組我們就有特別要求做一些比較重要的這些所以未來去集合的人員都有特殊查核對未來的部分就是我們會增加適任性查核適任性查核指的是一般查核就是根據公務人員的利用法的第四條那再加上那是一般查核嘛但是我們現在講是說各\n\n05:18.015 --> 05:37.397\n本席現在提出來就是要因為外交部的這個事件大家才看到是說當一個資義他可以守今守部長的行程相關的時候結果他只有查過一次就他到任的時候的一般查核但是他的精明程度精守的程度非常的高\n\n05:39.349 --> 06:01.675\n一樣嘛如果說未來我們的資訊安全都是由我們治安署來查核總統府也是治安署五院也是治安署那他們可能99%的同仁都非常好但只要有一個害群之馬只要有一個老鼠屎的話他就有可能經手的資料出去的東西是破口是漏洞\n\n06:02.435 --> 06:25.152\n所以本席才會提出來是說到目前為止只有這個部分那未來是不是應該要增加那還有這個是公務人員任用法那如果說未來有委託委外有非公務人員的如果是委外的話我們那個治安法裡面的實行細則裡面對委外人員涉及到國家經濟的等等相關的部分也要做一些試驗性查核\n\n06:25.598 --> 06:50.748\n有編列在這個治安法裡面嗎目前的新的細節裡面就有這個部分好OK來那部長我再請教所以部長這個部分是本席特別提出來請在修法的過程裡面也一併要納入考量因為既然要做就不要有任何的漏洞那另外第二個部分危害全國家的資通安全產品我看到我們在第11條新增就是過去沒有法源一句我們把它給法源一句話\n\n06:52.969 --> 07:21.090\n2023年那個時候有講說我們現在差不多公務機關有上千項的產品軟硬體上千項是禁用的那未來我們的這個法制化之後這一個清單會不會出來那個鮑委員因為這種東西產品一直在變而且它可能會棄產地所以我們不會給清單但是我們會隨時在審查跟通報但是這樣子我們的所有公務機關大家能不能夠掌握跟了解我們會通報所以會有個database\n\n07:21.810 --> 07:49.973\n會有Database會持續的Update嘛因為本席有看到其實更重要譬如說啦上上個月那個人工智慧的軟體中國大陸製馬上我們之前也下令是說不准公務機關使用嘛那所以未來軟體的部分我們會適時的增添會審查然後檢驗跟通報就是會有個通報的一個Database所以依照這個相關法的依據適時的增添但是所有的公務機關以及\n\n07:51.534 --> 08:11.444\n列管的重要的非公務機關也都會掌握所以不會有誤用的狀況應該不會我們會落實這個審查之前有媒體有問到是說那到目前為止因為既然我們現在要修法嘛那過去可能有用的地方那現在有沒有全部都盤查現在所有機關都沒有用了\n\n08:12.731 --> 08:23.525\n這個有沒有落實因為之前媒體報導講的是說有一些產品它可能有特殊無可取代性所以說還沒有辦法完全的進行所以到目前為止我們現在掌握的狀況如何是謝謝委員剛剛的這個指導我想的確是\n\n08:30.012 --> 08:45.902\n我們有一些禁止使用的原則但是有一些例外原則例如說在一些教學或是研究的現場等等的那這些如果有需要的話一定要報部裡面同意之後在一些安全管控的環境之下例如說不能連公務的環境等等管控之下才可以使用\n\n08:47.050 --> 09:07.936\n那報部裡面同意組長所以我現在只是想問一件事啦就是這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員因為我聽過他太多次他都在質詢同一件事情我只想問我們現在清查了會不會再過一個月兩個月之後又報出哪一個部會用了我們的這個禁止列管的禁止的產品\n\n09:10.218 --> 09:29.459\n我們現在有沒有全面清查因為給你們兩年的時間喔2023年開始我們也到現在2025年了你現在要修這個治安法那我們也同意我們也認為是說應該要加強我們國家的安全維護那但是現在通盤的去做檢驗除了有些特殊的有特殊報\n\n09:31.821 --> 09:55.054\n備註書面你們有列管以外到底現在有沒有跟委員報告我們每人都有清查就是政府機關有沒有使用到這些不敢掛保證但每人都有清查然後如果他例外要使用的話都要報裡面來特別的根據他的理由來核准等等剛剛已經跟委員報告過了市長你沒有回答到我的問題你是個聰明人但是你不敢回答我這個問題\n\n09:56.334 --> 10:17.669\n目前我想我們都有在清查這方面是有沒有使用部長不好意思一句話啦資安大家都關心不分朝野不分黨派但重點在於是落實我覺得科技日新萬億但是重點落實才能夠防止因為我覺得最重點還是人性\n\n10:18.635 --> 10:35.200\n這一點請部長這邊好好的我們之後逐條審查的時候會好好的逐條審查有委員不同版本有提出來跟我們行政院有多一些更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方也拜託我們肅發部真的要用開放的態度來做一起的思考謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.99,"end":1.812,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請黃部長請部長"},{"start":10.117,"end":38.71,"text":"好 部長好 治安法的修法我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本那就是代表是說對國家安全來講我們責無旁貸但有幾個部分我想還是要跟你進一步的就教也落實說到底我們治安法修法之後能不能真的達成我們訴發部所要達到的一個目的所以首先我們看到是說現在的一個未來的集合以及公務機關的這些集合等等都會由我們治安署這邊來負責對不對"},{"start":40.372,"end":50.113,"text":"那治安署的這個集合因為所有公務機關不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要來負責的話那這樣子我們的人力夠不夠"},{"start":51.393,"end":75.516,"text":"我們治安署當然就是說這方面目前我們是有每一年至少集合40個單位40個單位至少40個單位那當然未來但現在納入來之後是全部的公務機關都要所有的我們現在A級機關如果連飛特定飛公務機關加起來應該有90個單位90個單位每年大概96個單位嘛96個單位所以我們當然就只要等於是一倍多的業務量"},{"start":77.258,"end":102.634,"text":"我看到你們第32條還講是說得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家自通安全防護的演練跟集合所以你們未來還會再委託出去因為中央事業目的主管機關他們對他們自己下面比如說像台電油水電這些公司應該像經濟部就會去那本席要問的問題是說那這些人員有可能他是最了解整個國家公務機關的這些資訊"},{"start":104.515,"end":131.648,"text":"安全機密的部分那他們的查核就相對重要了也是要有特殊查核對不對也是要有特殊查核好我們來看一下現在特殊查核是有相關規定的我找到下一頁仁氏行政總署他也在去年的12月的時候又再把特殊查核的職務依然表再秀出來那其中本席看到來上頁我們資安資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上"},{"start":132.938,"end":134.649,"text":"是要經過特殊查核的"},{"start":136.141,"end":163.271,"text":"但是就如同我們最近在講外交部的這個資義的事件他的職等沒有到很高可是他要經手是部長的外交行程也因此當一個資義長期在部長旁邊然後拿到相關的資料的時候他流出去的機密不知道多少他的變成在政府底下變成是一個共諜那他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣"},{"start":164.859,"end":176.838,"text":"來 那我請教未來我們是不是要把我們相關的這些集合人員也要放入因為現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量他就說不是用職等來區分而是用他經手的業務來區分"},{"start":178.721,"end":205.969,"text":"這個我想這個我們再進一步去在部裡面根據行政院的規定我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改不是啊部長我們現在就是已經在討論到修法了如果說未來這個修法通過之後馬上就是變成是我們速發部資安署的業務那資安署馬上就要上路了我也看到你們講是說你們的集合的方式是要報行政院來核定但是總是這些都要先預想啊那個我請那個署長再來簡單說明一下"},{"start":208.952,"end":233.163,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想剛剛委員提到的適應性查核或是特殊查核其實非常的重要那我跟委員報告一下那在治安署裡面的確剛剛委員所講的在科長級以上的主管是要做一些特殊查核但是我們是根據業務的一些涉及到機敏性來決定查核的範圍例如說在我們通報應變組裡面它所有同仁就要做查核就是根據這個組它的特性"},{"start":234.784,"end":253.652,"text":"那您的法源依據咧?但目前為止我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂特殊查核那這個特殊查核表示報出去之後由法務部調查局來做特殊查核那你說其他人員是誰來做特殊查核?也是請一個法務部調查局那您的法源依據在哪裡?那這不是要法源依據這個是實現規則你要報那你的人員的名單你要報啊如果說你沒有報的話你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局"},{"start":260.495,"end":279.806,"text":"我們會報人員跟職務的這個職稱是啊那你現在報了嗎就是我們的通報應變組他這組因為他涉及到其他機敏的相關的一些資訊所以他人員就會做一些適應性的這個特殊查核我現在問的是說報了沒我們應該是有報不是不是應該來 部長部長"},{"start":288.98,"end":314.973,"text":"那個現在已經有報過了對就是我們像有一些特殊性的一些組我們就有特別要求做一些比較重要的這些所以未來去集合的人員都有特殊查核對 未來的部分就是我們會增加適任性查核適任性查核指的是一般查核就是根據公務人員的利用法的第四條那再加上那是一般查核嘛但是我們現在講是說各"},{"start":318.015,"end":337.397,"text":"本席現在提出來就是要因為外交部的這個事件大家才看到是說當一個資義他可以守今守部長的行程相關的時候結果他只有查過一次就他到任的時候的一般查核但是他的精明程度 精守的程度非常的高"},{"start":339.349,"end":361.675,"text":"一樣嘛 如果說未來我們的資訊安全都是由我們治安署來查核總統府也是治安署 五院也是治安署那他們可能99%的同仁都非常好但只要有一個害群之馬 只要有一個老鼠屎的話他就有可能經手的資料出去的東西是破口 是漏洞"},{"start":362.435,"end":385.152,"text":"所以本席才會提出來是說到目前為止只有這個部分那未來是不是應該要增加那還有這個是公務人員任用法那如果說未來有委託委外有非公務人員的如果是委外的話我們那個治安法裡面的實行細則裡面對委外人員涉及到國家經濟的等等相關的部分也要做一些試驗性查核"},{"start":385.598,"end":410.748,"text":"有編列在這個治安法裡面嗎目前的新的細節裡面就有這個部分好OK來那部長我再請教所以部長這個部分是本席特別提出來請在修法的過程裡面也一併要納入考量因為既然要做就不要有任何的漏洞那另外第二個部分危害全國家的資通安全產品我看到我們在第11條新增就是過去沒有法源一句我們把它給法源一句話"},{"start":412.969,"end":441.09,"text":"2023年那個時候有講說我們現在差不多公務機關有上千項的產品軟硬體上千項是禁用的那未來我們的這個法制化之後這一個清單會不會出來那個 鮑委員因為這種東西產品一直在變而且它可能會棄產地所以我們不會給清單但是我們會隨時在審查跟通報但是這樣子我們的所有公務機關大家能不能夠掌握跟了解我們會通報所以會有個database"},{"start":441.81,"end":469.973,"text":"會有Database會持續的Update嘛因為本席有看到其實更重要譬如說啦上上個月那個人工智慧的軟體中國大陸製馬上我們之前也下令是說不准公務機關使用嘛那所以未來軟體的部分我們會適時的增添會審查然後檢驗跟通報就是會有個通報的一個Database所以依照這個相關法的依據適時的增添但是所有的公務機關以及"},{"start":471.534,"end":491.444,"text":"列管的重要的非公務機關也都會掌握所以不會有誤用的狀況應該不會我們會落實這個審查之前有媒體有問到是說那到目前為止因為既然我們現在要修法嘛那過去可能有用的地方那現在有沒有全部都盤查現在所有機關都沒有用了"},{"start":492.731,"end":503.525,"text":"這個有沒有落實因為之前媒體報導講的是說有一些產品它可能有特殊無可取代性所以說還沒有辦法完全的進行所以到目前為止我們現在掌握的狀況如何是 謝謝委員剛剛的這個指導我想的確是"},{"start":510.012,"end":525.902,"text":"我們有一些禁止使用的原則但是有一些例外原則例如說在一些教學或是研究的現場等等的那這些如果有需要的話一定要報部裡面同意之後在一些安全管控的環境之下例如說不能連公務的環境等等管控之下才可以使用"},{"start":527.05,"end":547.936,"text":"那報部裡面同意組長所以我現在只是想問一件事啦就是這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員因為我聽過他太多次他都在質詢同一件事情我只想問我們現在清查了會不會再過一個月兩個月之後又報出哪一個部會用了我們的這個禁止列管的禁止的產品"},{"start":550.218,"end":569.459,"text":"我們現在有沒有全面清查因為給你們兩年的時間喔2023年開始我們也到現在2025年了你現在要修這個治安法那我們也同意我們也認為是說應該要加強我們國家的安全維護那但是現在通盤的去做檢驗除了有些特殊的有特殊報"},{"start":571.821,"end":595.054,"text":"備註書面你們有列管以外到底現在有沒有跟委員報告我們每人都有清查就是政府機關有沒有使用到這些不敢掛保證但每人都有清查然後如果他例外要使用的話都要報裡面來特別的根據他的理由來核准等等剛剛已經跟委員報告過了市長你沒有回答到我的問題你是個聰明人但是你不敢回答我這個問題"},{"start":596.334,"end":617.669,"text":"目前我想我們都有在清查這方面是有沒有使用部長 不好意思 一句話啦資安大家都關心 不分朝野 不分黨派但重點在於是落實我覺得科技日新萬億但是重點落實才能夠防止因為我覺得最重點還是人性"},{"start":618.635,"end":635.2,"text":"這一點請部長這邊好好的我們之後逐條審查的時候會好好的逐條審查有委員不同版本有提出來跟我們行政院有多一些更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方也拜託我們肅發部真的要用開放的態度來做一起的思考謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":119,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時28分）主席謝謝，麻煩請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，關於資安法的修法，我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本，代表對國家安全來講，我們責無旁貸。但有幾個部分我還是要跟你就教，也落實到底資安法修法之後，能不能真的達成數發部所要達到的目的。","首先，我們看到未來的稽核以及公務機關的稽核等等都會由資安署來負責，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：針對資安署的稽核，如果是所有公務機關，不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要負責的話，你們的人力夠不夠？"],["黃部長彥男：我們資安署這方面目前是每一年至少稽核40個單位。"],["洪委員孟楷：40個單位？"],["黃部長彥男：至少40個單位，那當然未來是……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在納入之後，是全部的公務機關都要……"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是所有的，現在A級機關，如果連特定非公務機關加起來，每年大概有96個單位，所以當然資安法通過……"],["洪委員孟楷：等於是一倍多的業務量，我看到你們第三十二條還說，得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家資通安全防護的演練跟稽核。所以你們未來還會再委託出去？"],["黃部長彥男：對，因為中央目的事業主管機關對自己下面的單位，比如像台電還有油、水、電這些公司應該向經濟部就……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席要問的問題是，這一些人員有可能是最了解整個國家公務機關的資訊、安全機密，他們的查核就相對重要了。"],["黃部長彥男：也是要特殊查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：對不對？也是要特殊查核。好，我們來看一下，現在特殊查核是有相關規定的，我找到人事行政總處在去年12月的時候又把特殊查核的職務一覽表show出來，其中本席看到資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上是要經過特殊查核，但是就如同我們最近在講外交部諮議的事件，他的職等沒有很高，可是他經手的是部長的外交行程，也因此一個諮議長期在部長旁邊，拿到的相關資料、流出去的機密不知道有多少，他在政府底下變成是一個共諜，他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣。我想請教，未來我們是不是也要把這些相關的稽核人員放入？現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量，他們說不是用職等區分，而是用經手的業務來區分。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會再進一步在部裡面來討論，根據行政院的規定，我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們現在已經在討論修法了，如果未來這個修法通過之後，馬上就變成數發部資安署的業務，資安署馬上就要上路了，我也看到你們的稽核方式是要報行政院核定……"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但這些總要先預想啊！"],["黃部長彥男：我請署長說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，簡單說明一下。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員給我這個機會說明，剛剛委員提到的適任性查核或是特殊查核其實非常重要，我跟委員報告一下，在資安署裡面，的確如同委員剛剛所講的，在科長級以上的主管要做一些特殊查核，但我們是根據業務涉及到的機敏性來決定查核範圍，例如在我們通報應變組裡面，所有同仁都要做查核，也就是根據這個組的特性……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的法源依據呢？目前為止，我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂的特殊查核，那這個特殊查核表報出去之後是由法務部調查局來做特殊查核……"],["蔡署長福隆：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那其他人員是由誰來做特殊查核？"],["蔡署長福隆：也是請法務部調查局來協助……"],["洪委員孟楷：你的法源依據在哪裡？"],["蔡署長福隆：這不需要法源依據，這個是行政規則。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的人員名單要報啊！"],["蔡署長福隆：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果你沒有報的話，你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局……"],["蔡署長福隆：我們會報人員跟職務的職稱。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，那你現在報了嗎？"],["蔡署長福隆：因為我們通報應變組這一組涉及到一些其他機敏相關的資訊，所以人員就會做一些適任性的特殊查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在問的是報了沒？"],["蔡署長福隆：我們應該是有報。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是應該，部長……"],["蔡署長福隆：現在已經報過了，像一些具特殊性的組，我們就有特別要求他們做一些比較重要的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來去稽核的人員都有特殊查核？"],["蔡署長福隆：未來我們會增加適任性查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：適任性查核指的是一般查核？"],["蔡署長福隆：就是根據公務人員任用法第四條，再加上……"],["洪委員孟楷：那是一般查核嘛，但是我們現在講的是……，本席現在提出來就是因為外交部的事件，大家才看到一個諮議可以經手部長的相關行程時，結果他只有被查核過一次，也就是他到任時的一般查核，但是他的機敏程度、經手程度非常的高。一樣嘛，如果未來我們的資訊安全都是由資安署來查核，總統府也是資安署來查，五院也是資安署來查，那他們可能……百分之九十九的同仁都非常好，但只要有一個害群之馬、只要有一個老鼠屎的話，就有可能造成經手出去的資料、東西是破口、漏洞，所以本席才會提出來，到目前為止只有這個部分，則未來是不是應該要增加？還有，這個是公務人員任用法……"],["蔡署長福隆：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果未來有委託、委外，有非公務人員的……"],["蔡署長福隆：如果是委外，我們資安法裡面的施行細則對委外人員涉及國家機密等等相關部分也要做一些適任性查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：有編列在資安法裡面嗎？"],["蔡署長福隆：目前的施行細則裡面就有這個部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，OK。部長，這個部分是本席特別提出來的，請在修法的過程裡面一併納入考量，既然要做，就不要有任何的漏洞。","第二個部分，針對危害全國家的資通安全產品，我看到第十一條新增的，也就是過去沒有法源依據的現在給它法源依據。2023年那時候有講到公務機關差不多有上千項的產品、軟硬體是禁用的，未來法制化之後，這個清單會不會出來？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，因為這種東西……產品一直在變，而且它可能會洗產地，所以我們不會給清單，但是我們會隨時審查跟通報。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是這樣所有的公務機關能不能夠掌握跟了解？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會通報，所以會有一個database。"],["洪委員孟楷：會有database？會持續update嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為本席看到更重要的，譬如上上個月，針對中國大陸製的人工智慧軟體也馬上下令不准公務機關使用，所以針對未來的軟體會適時的增添？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們會審查、檢驗跟通報，會有一個通報的database。"],["洪委員孟楷：依照這個相關法源依據適時的增添，所有的公務機關以及重要列管的非公務機關也都會掌握？"],["黃部長彥男：會有情資分享，會有database。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不會有誤用的狀況？"],["黃部長彥男：應該不會，我們會落實審查跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：之前媒體有問到，到目前為止……既然我們現在要修法，過去可能有用的地方，那現在有沒有全部都盤查，即現在所有機關都沒有用了？這個有沒有落實？因為之前媒體報導講的是，有一些產品可能有特殊、無可取代性，所以還沒有辦法完全禁止。到目前為止，你們現在掌握的狀況如何？"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員的指導，的確如委員所講的，我們對於危害國家資通安全的產品有一些禁止使用的原則，但是有一些例外原則，例如在教學或是研究現場等等，這些如果有需要的話，一定要報部裡面同意之後，在安全管控的環境之下，像是不能連上公務的環境等等，在管控之下才可以使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["蔡署長福隆：也要報部裡面同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，所以我現在只想問一件事，這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召──黃國昌委員說的，因為我聽過他太多次都在質詢同一件事情，我只想問，現在你們清查了，會不會再過一個月、兩個月之後又爆出哪一個部會用了列管的、禁止的產品？"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在有沒有全面清查？因為給你們兩年的時間了，2023年開始到現在2025年了，你們現在要修資安法，我們也同意，我們也認為應該要加強國家的安全維護，但是現在通盤的去做檢驗，你們除了有一些特殊備註的、有書面列管的以外，到底現在有沒有？"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告，我們每年都有清查政府機關有沒有使用這些產品……"],["洪委員孟楷：不敢掛保證？"],["蔡署長福隆：每年都有清查，如果是例外要使用的話，都要特別報部裡面，根據他們的理由來核准，剛剛已經跟委員報告過了。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，你沒有回答到我的問題。"],["蔡署長福隆：是，目前……"],["洪委員孟楷：你是個聰明人，但是你不敢回答我這個問題。"],["蔡署長福隆：我們目前都有在清查這方面……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，不好意思，一句話啦，資安大家都關心，不分朝野、不分黨派，但重點在於落實，我覺得科技日新月異，但重點要落實才能夠防止，因為我覺得重點還是人性，這一點請部長這邊好好的……我們之後會好好的逐條審查，委員有不同版本提出來，若比行政院有更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方，也拜託數發部真的要用開放的態度一起思考，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的建議。"],["主席：謝謝，我們請李昆澤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}}