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00:00:35,203\n部長好部長針對今天主席安排要來審法案本席也有提了修正案的版本修了好幾條其他我想跟行政院大同小異的我們就不談其中第四條本席的版本提到政府應該提供資源協助民間處理因應及防範知通安全威脅事件\n\n3\n00:00:36,765 --> 00:00:45,397\n部長你有注意到本席的版本嗎部裡面有沒有什麼看法對於本席這個條文的提出\n\n4\n00:00:46,465 --> 00:01:13,798\n我們現在有這個治安本來就是需要公司協力所以我們現在是有那個就像TW社這樣一個機制讓通報協助來處理一些治安的事件那所以這個我想委員的提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同我想概念上你們不會反對但本席為什麼要加進去我希望讓你們有法源的基礎為什麼我要這樣提呢\n\n5\n00:01:15,607 --> 00:01:41,299\n部長你看過監察院對有一個調查報告在公告時間是113年的1月18號主要的暗由就是針對這個民間企業及個人資料外洩上網被兜售的事件這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、合運租車等等其他這個企業那這個被盜的數目各自都是百萬筆、數百萬筆\n\n6\n00:01:43,922 --> 00:02:09,318\n那本席認為這個大型的這種事件危害到大型公共事務或者是各自大量的這個洩漏本席認為這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如說單一的一個什麼貿易公司啦一個什麼民間的企業他的電腦被害或者他幾個客戶的資料被偷我認為這個不可以用相同的角度來看\n\n7\n00:02:10,168 --> 00:02:39,648\n就像你們這次的修法裡面為什麼你會針對大型這種所謂不是大型這種政府所謂的關鍵性的這些設施啊譬如說過去培洛西議長來台灣訪問我們的這些政府公部門這種電子屏幕上面出現電子螢幕上面出現這個被害的然後有一些攻擊台灣的文字或者攻擊台美關係的文字的出現\n\n8\n00:02:40,809 --> 00:02:48,719\n那這個東西你們這一次裡面認為這個要處理嗎沒有錯嗎沒關係如果有要代替回答我也可以\n\n9\n00:02:49,571 --> 00:03:13,302\n那個這個主要是因為他用了一個產品就危害國家自動安全產品所以才產生這些事情所以這個從危害國家自動安全產品裡面可以做限制不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是對這種大型的公司尤其很多各自的公司的確就是要加強管理那我剛剛講就是說這個當然我們特定會公務機關這個定義這個講就是說其實各事業目的主要機關他們可以去要求\n\n10\n00:03:14,062 --> 00:03:26,616\n比如說像這個像Iron可能就交通部可以就是說類似這種東西被要求的單位他有特殊的那個資料或特殊的服務那當然是可以被要求納入這個我們的特殊費工機關來特別去監管對你們從產品\n\n11\n00:03:31,361 --> 00:03:50,851\n產品端這個第十條第十八條都是企圖從產品端來限制那我的意思產品端限制我等一下再跟你討論我也很支持但是除了產品端的限制如果他產品沒有問題他可能買的就是美國產品他不是買一些奇奇怪怪包括中國的\n\n12\n00:03:51,371 --> 00:04:20,764\n然後呢結果他被害以至於他的舉個例子譬如說現在大型的入口有大型的廣告看板電子看板這個其實越來越多公司規模越來越大那在特定的時間點我駭入他然後就直接把我要的政治訴求譬如說兩岸有任何問題的時候他直接把政治訴求就打在那個台灣重要入口的電子屏幕上面那\n\n13\n00:04:22,097 --> 00:04:35,647\n產品沒有問題就你在產品端做審核查核沒有問題他本來就產品是美國製啊再來他是大型企業他可能一時被害他沒辦法處理那\n\n14\n00:04:36,721 --> 00:04:53,829\n政府這時候應該要協助吧部長你認為對嘛所以我的意思是說給你們一個法源讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取系統性的數量規模極大的\n\n15\n00:04:54,389 --> 00:05:16,064\n你們可以因應有法律條文裡面政府要來提供資源協助民間處理然後防範這種安全威脅資通安全的威脅事件所以部長我訂這一條你知道我的用心良苦讓你們有知道說我們其實可以引用這一條那這一條規範裡面到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的\n\n16\n00:05:16,604 --> 00:05:24,798\n我想就授權應該你們來授權給你們來去規範出說到底哪一些部分因為這個其實影響很大如果我們只界定在\n\n17\n00:05:26,294 --> 00:05:50,420\n政府只在於關注那些所謂基礎設施啊關鍵性設施啊我認為那個遠遠不足對國家安全的防護在自動安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足所以本席認為應該要來來制定這一條這個是一個很重要的原因那第二個啊我們對於我剛剛講過我們現我們在產品端上面啊我們現在是\n\n18\n00:05:51,480 --> 00:06:15,460\n不只中國啦反正只要我們認為這個有安全疑慮威脅的就不可以嘛對不對那我要請跟部長討論一下就是現在的東西越來越多因為隨著科技的發展越來東西越來越多譬如說我隨便舉一個例子那個自動販賣機啊當它有Internet的功能的時候它上面也有螢幕\n\n19\n00:06:17,230 --> 00:06:40,382\n它上面也可以連結上網嘛因為它的支付現在透過雲端不是我們傳統的自動販賣機投錢按下去完全機械原理然後領錢領出飲料現在的自動販賣機不是這樣那我相信越來會越複雜所以自動販賣機它是不是資訊通訊產品\n\n20\n00:06:43,874 --> 00:07:07,905\n只要連網都算我認為以後會越來越多啦那個保溫杯也可以以後也會啊因為它可以直接連網然後記錄你每天喝多少水然後你什麼時候會去裝水你每次都裝多少CC然後可以辨別出你這是水還是茶還是可樂還是什麼都可能嘛都有可能那這些只要一連網它也是保溫杯也算是\n\n21\n00:07:09,517 --> 00:07:26,507\n資訊通訊產品所以這個範圍你們要去界定啦因為現在我們想像裡面不可以只界定在手機啊平板啊電腦啊不是這個這些概念所以部長你現在這個這瞭解對書發部要去瞭解好那最後一個這個\n\n22\n00:07:28,919 --> 00:07:55,169\n最近有一個新聞我想大家也都注意到這個前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查台港用戶的發文部長你有注意到這個新聞我先不去論說介入這個事實到底真相為何因為現在有一點各說各話那我們就靜待它的發展但本席對一點我覺得很有必要拿出來探討\n\n23\n00:07:56,569 --> 00:08:12,015\n這個多數很多的團體這裡面藍藍綠綠都有不斷的我們會接到接收到陳情或者抗議抗議什麼抗議有一些文章啊為什麼會在這個Meta的這個社群平台臉書上面就消失\n\n24\n00:08:13,291 --> 00:08:35,552\n那交涉之後他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說為什麼我的文章會消失但正常的程序是他們得不到任何的回應或者就算有回應都不是什麼正面回答你的問題都是牽扯其他或者一個簡單他們什麼內部的什麼規定或者內部的什麼一個原則他大概就簡單回答你這個樣子\n\n25\n00:08:37,045 --> 00:08:54,799\n那本席是覺得是這樣每一個公司企業經營他有他內部的一些規定規章本席沒有意見但本席認為這種規定規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗這個檢驗包括使用者本身包括政府本身所以如果\n\n26\n00:08:56,365 --> 00:09:13,694\n訴發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到原因是什麼如果你們覺得該做他該修法他就應該被修法哪有可能他把任何一個敵人滲透正是因為他不需要說明他覺得不爽他就把你刪\n\n27\n00:09:14,949 --> 00:09:29,570\n是不是這樣部長你懂我的意思嗎那換言之這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠喔每一個色彩政黨都有可能被刪只要看他高不高興那他也不需要回答你啊他就跟你講說我們的公司就是可以刪\n\n28\n00:09:31,673 --> 00:09:58,329\n所以Meta的審核機制的確是不是很透明那我們也在美國因為這個不透明所以連美國國會參議員也在做聽證所以我們也是看聽證的結果那再跟Meta我們會跟Meta交涉就是說這個第一個要透明化那這個要下架應該要讓民眾了解所以我想這個我們會持續關注部長我的意思剛剛你沒有聽懂我的意思就是說不要再溝通\n\n29\n00:10:00,117 --> 00:10:05,972\n我們現在講任性在國防在安全上面的任性台灣我們應該主動的把這些問題\n\n30\n00:10:07,386 --> 00:10:32,737\n我們就法令嘛全世界我們是台灣是民主法治的國家美國也是但台灣的國情跟美國不一樣嘛美國所面臨的即刻性的威脅並不台灣比他們強大危險太多啊就我們的那個急迫性比他強化強太多所以我們面對民主自由沒有關係我用法治的角度我直接速發布認為你就是要揭露嘛\n\n31\n00:10:33,618 --> 00:10:56,695\n我就直接告訴你指引是什麼我就直接公布這個叫規則甚至如果要修法立法院我們來支持我想大家都會支持啊因為你為什麼把人家刪文你應該要有一套事先你公布什麼沒有關係你至少讓我知道所以你們就是挺共的所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除那我至少知道我就不用你的嘛\n\n32\n00:10:57,455 --> 00:11:20,832\n你都不告訴我表面上你又裝的一副很民主很自由言論開放但事實上你刪了什麼你為什麼要刪這個你背後是不是有這個共匪的勢力在後面指導我怎麼會知道呢我這樣講你你也不高興嘛因為你覺得你沒有嘛那你沒有你要刪人家的文你又沒有一個指導一個原則一個告訴你我的遊戲規則是什麼\n\n33\n00:11:23,075 --> 00:11:52,395\n這個才是問題的所在啊所以你再去跟他溝通因為我每次在這裡講Meta你都說要去喝咖啡啦對不對從詐騙一路到今天都是這樣子嘛那本席一直認為這個不可行啦你要喝你還是可以喝但沒有效果嘛你看我們最後還不是不斷的在立法院修法給你武器他也是美國公司嘛守法很重要啊你到人家落到每一個國家落地就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛所以中華民國的法令是什麼\n\n34\n00:11:53,595 --> 00:12:11,469\n我們應該速發部要有一些想法不可以每天讓這些我們的消費者在使用Meta的這些產品然後整天就在客訴整天就在跟立法院立法委員陳情整天就在媒體上在其他的平台上面去幹繳這個事情所以我是覺得這個很奇怪啦\n\n35\n00:12:12,290 --> 00:12:40,626\n所以我今天無意我也不知道Meta它的準則是什麼我認為公開透明讓大家可檢驗我認為這是一個基本的commonsense這也是一個基本的要求這不是什麼對而且也不是針對它全部的社群平台我們中華民國你要落地在這裡我就是要告訴你我們的法規就是這樣子你必須每一個社群平台都可被檢驗我要確保你後面不是共產黨你不是要來消滅中華民國的\n\n36\n00:12:41,530 --> 00:12:55,116\n好不好部長那個委員這個這瞭解那我剛剛特別強調因為現在美國參與在做聽證會這個META這個他剛剛講這個他這對內容審核的機制希望美國政府會強迫他公開那我們會知道怎麼處理\n\n37\n00:12:56,290 --> 00:13:17,322\n對啦我的意思是說不用什麼事都等美國啦你也可以先做啦就是我的意思就是叫他公佈審查一個公開透明任何的任何台灣在使用的這些平台你就公佈嘛不只我針對我不會針對一家公司以後哪一家公司都一樣嘛我的要求只是這個樣子嘛好不好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4536\t4738\t委員好\n6304\t35203\t部長好部長針對今天主席安排要來審法案本席也有提了修正案的版本修了好幾條其他我想跟行政院大同小異的我們就不談其中第四條本席的版本提到政府應該提供資源協助民間處理因應及防範知通安全威脅事件\n36765\t45397\t部長你有注意到本席的版本嗎部裡面有沒有什麼看法對於本席這個條文的提出\n46465\t73798\t我們現在有這個治安本來就是需要公司協力所以我們現在是有那個就像TW社這樣一個機制讓通報協助來處理一些治安的事件那所以這個我想委員的提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同我想概念上你們不會反對但本席為什麼要加進去我希望讓你們有法源的基礎為什麼我要這樣提呢\n75607\t101299\t部長你看過監察院對有一個調查報告在公告時間是113年的1月18號主要的暗由就是針對這個民間企業及個人資料外洩上網被兜售的事件這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、合運租車等等其他這個企業那這個被盜的數目各自都是百萬筆、數百萬筆\n103922\t129318\t那本席認為這個大型的這種事件危害到大型公共事務或者是各自大量的這個洩漏本席認為這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如說單一的一個什麼貿易公司啦一個什麼民間的企業他的電腦被害或者他幾個客戶的資料被偷我認為這個不可以用相同的角度來看\n130168\t159648\t就像你們這次的修法裡面為什麼你會針對大型這種所謂不是大型這種政府所謂的關鍵性的這些設施啊譬如說過去培洛西議長來台灣訪問我們的這些政府公部門這種電子屏幕上面出現電子螢幕上面出現這個被害的然後有一些攻擊台灣的文字或者攻擊台美關係的文字的出現\n160809\t168719\t那這個東西你們這一次裡面認為這個要處理嗎沒有錯嗎沒關係如果有要代替回答我也可以\n169571\t193302\t那個這個主要是因為他用了一個產品就危害國家自動安全產品所以才產生這些事情所以這個從危害國家自動安全產品裡面可以做限制不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是對這種大型的公司尤其很多各自的公司的確就是要加強管理那我剛剛講就是說這個當然我們特定會公務機關這個定義這個講就是說其實各事業目的主要機關他們可以去要求\n194062\t206616\t比如說像這個像Iron可能就交通部可以就是說類似這種東西被要求的單位他有特殊的那個資料或特殊的服務那當然是可以被要求納入這個我們的特殊費工機關來特別去監管對你們從產品\n211361\t230851\t產品端這個第十條第十八條都是企圖從產品端來限制那我的意思產品端限制我等一下再跟你討論我也很支持但是除了產品端的限制如果他產品沒有問題他可能買的就是美國產品他不是買一些奇奇怪怪包括中國的\n231371\t260764\t然後呢結果他被害以至於他的舉個例子譬如說現在大型的入口有大型的廣告看板電子看板這個其實越來越多公司規模越來越大那在特定的時間點我駭入他然後就直接把我要的政治訴求譬如說兩岸有任何問題的時候他直接把政治訴求就打在那個台灣重要入口的電子屏幕上面那\n262097\t275647\t產品沒有問題就你在產品端做審核查核沒有問題他本來就產品是美國製啊再來他是大型企業他可能一時被害他沒辦法處理那\n276721\t293829\t政府這時候應該要協助吧部長你認為對嘛所以我的意思是說給你們一個法源讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取系統性的數量規模極大的\n294389\t316064\t你們可以因應有法律條文裡面政府要來提供資源協助民間處理然後防範這種安全威脅 資通安全的威脅事件所以部長我訂這一條你知道我的用心良苦讓你們有知道說我們其實可以引用這一條那這一條規範裡面到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的\n316604\t324798\t我想就授權應該你們來授權給你們來去規範出說到底哪一些部分因為這個其實影響很大如果我們只界定在\n326294\t350420\t政府只在於關注那些所謂基礎設施啊關鍵性設施啊我認為那個遠遠不足對國家安全的防護在自動安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足所以本席認為應該要來來制定這一條這個是一個很重要的原因那第二個啊我們對於我剛剛講過我們現我們在產品端上面啊我們現在是\n351480\t375460\t不只中國啦反正只要我們認為這個有安全疑慮威脅的就不可以嘛對不對那我要請跟部長討論一下就是現在的東西越來越多因為隨著科技的發展越來東西越來越多譬如說我隨便舉一個例子那個自動販賣機啊當它有Internet的功能的時候它上面也有螢幕\n377230\t400382\t它上面也可以連結上網嘛因為它的支付現在透過雲端不是我們傳統的自動販賣機投錢按下去完全機械原理然後領錢領出飲料現在的自動販賣機不是這樣那我相信越來會越複雜所以自動販賣機它是不是資訊通訊產品\n403874\t427905\t只要連網都算我認為以後會越來越多啦那個保溫杯也可以以後也會啊因為它可以直接連網然後記錄你每天喝多少水然後你什麼時候會去裝水你每次都裝多少CC然後可以辨別出你這是水還是茶還是可樂還是什麼都可能嘛都有可能那這些只要一連網它也是保溫杯也算是\n429517\t446507\t資訊通訊產品所以這個範圍你們要去界定啦因為現在我們想像裡面不可以只界定在手機啊平板啊電腦啊不是這個這些概念所以部長你現在這個這瞭解對書發部要去瞭解好那最後一個這個\n448919\t475169\t最近有一個新聞我想大家也都注意到這個前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查台港用戶的發文部長你有注意到這個新聞我先不去論說介入這個事實到底真相為何因為現在有一點各說各話那我們就靜待它的發展但本席對一點我覺得很有必要拿出來探討\n476569\t492015\t這個多數很多的團體這裡面藍藍綠綠都有不斷的我們會接到接收到陳情或者抗議抗議什麼抗議有一些文章啊為什麼會在這個Meta的這個社群平台臉書上面就消失\n493291\t515552\t那交涉之後他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說為什麼我的文章會消失但正常的程序是他們得不到任何的回應或者就算有回應都不是什麼正面回答你的問題都是牽扯其他或者一個簡單他們什麼內部的什麼規定或者內部的什麼一個原則他大概就簡單回答你這個樣子\n517045\t534799\t那本席是覺得是這樣每一個公司企業經營他有他內部的一些規定規章本席沒有意見但本席認為這種規定規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗這個檢驗包括使用者本身包括政府本身所以如果\n536365\t553694\t訴發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到原因是什麼如果你們覺得該做他該修法他就應該被修法哪有可能他把任何一個敵人滲透正是因為他不需要說明他覺得不爽他就把你刪\n554949\t569570\t是不是這樣部長你懂我的意思嗎那換言之這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠喔每一個色彩政黨都有可能被刪只要看他高不高興那他也不需要回答你啊他就跟你講說我們的公司就是可以刪\n571673\t598329\t所以Meta的審核機制的確是不是很透明那我們也在美國因為這個不透明所以連美國國會參議員也在做聽證所以我們也是看聽證的結果那再跟Meta我們會跟Meta交涉就是說這個第一個要透明化那這個要下架應該要讓民眾了解所以我想這個我們會持續關注部長我的意思剛剛你沒有聽懂我的意思就是說不要再溝通\n600117\t605972\t我們現在講任性在國防在安全上面的任性台灣我們應該主動的把這些問題\n607386\t632737\t我們就法令嘛 全世界 我們是 台灣是民主法治的國家 美國也是但台灣的國情跟美國不一樣嘛美國所面臨的即刻性的威脅 並不 台灣比他們強大 危險太多啊就我們的那個急迫性比他強化 強太多所以我們面對 民主自由沒有關係 我用法治的角度我直接速發布 認為你就是要揭露嘛\n633618\t656695\t我就直接告訴你指引是什麼我就直接公布這個叫規則甚至如果要修法立法院我們來支持我想大家都會支持啊因為你為什麼把人家刪文你應該要有一套事先你公布什麼沒有關係你至少讓我知道所以你們就是挺共的所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除那我至少知道我就不用你的嘛\n657455\t680832\t你都不告訴我表面上你又裝的一副很民主很自由言論開放但事實上你刪了什麼你為什麼要刪這個你背後是不是有這個共匪的勢力在後面指導我怎麼會知道呢我這樣講你你也不高興嘛因為你覺得你沒有嘛那你沒有你要刪人家的文你又沒有一個指導一個原則一個告訴你我的遊戲規則是什麼\n683075\t712395\t這個才是問題的所在啊所以你再去跟他溝通因為我每次在這裡講Meta你都說要去喝咖啡啦對不對從詐騙一路到今天都是這樣子嘛那本席一直認為這個不可行啦你要喝你還是可以喝但沒有效果嘛你看我們最後還不是不斷的在立法院修法給你武器他也是美國公司嘛守法很重要啊你到人家落到每一個國家落地就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛所以中華民國的法令是什麼\n713595\t731469\t我們應該速發部要有一些想法不可以每天讓這些我們的消費者在使用Meta的這些產品然後整天就在客訴整天就在跟立法院立法委員陳情整天就在媒體上在其他的平台上面去幹繳這個事情所以我是覺得這個很奇怪啦\n732290\t760626\t所以我今天無意我也不知道Meta它的準則是什麼我認為公開透明讓大家可檢驗我認為這是一個基本的common sense這也是一個基本的要求這不是什麼對而且也不是針對它全部的社群平台我們中華民國你要落地在這裡我就是要告訴你我們的法規就是這樣子你必須每一個社群平台都可被檢驗我要確保你後面不是共產黨你不是要來消滅中華民國的\n761530\t775116\t好不好部長那個委員這個這瞭解那我剛剛特別強調因為現在美國參與在做聽證會這個META這個他剛剛講這個他這對內容審核的機制希望美國政府會強迫他公開那我們會知道怎麼處理\n776290\t797322\t對啦我的意思是說不用什麼事都等美國啦你也可以先做啦就是我的意思就是叫他公佈審查一個公開透明任何的任何台灣在使用的這些平台你就公佈嘛不只我針對我不會針對一家公司以後哪一家公司都一樣嘛我的要求只是這個樣子嘛好不好\n","txt":"委員好\n部長好部長針對今天主席安排要來審法案本席也有提了修正案的版本修了好幾條其他我想跟行政院大同小異的我們就不談其中第四條本席的版本提到政府應該提供資源協助民間處理因應及防範知通安全威脅事件\n部長你有注意到本席的版本嗎部裡面有沒有什麼看法對於本席這個條文的提出\n我們現在有這個治安本來就是需要公司協力所以我們現在是有那個就像TW社這樣一個機制讓通報協助來處理一些治安的事件那所以這個我想委員的提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同我想概念上你們不會反對但本席為什麼要加進去我希望讓你們有法源的基礎為什麼我要這樣提呢\n部長你看過監察院對有一個調查報告在公告時間是113年的1月18號主要的暗由就是針對這個民間企業及個人資料外洩上網被兜售的事件這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、合運租車等等其他這個企業那這個被盜的數目各自都是百萬筆、數百萬筆\n那本席認為這個大型的這種事件危害到大型公共事務或者是各自大量的這個洩漏本席認為這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如說單一的一個什麼貿易公司啦一個什麼民間的企業他的電腦被害或者他幾個客戶的資料被偷我認為這個不可以用相同的角度來看\n就像你們這次的修法裡面為什麼你會針對大型這種所謂不是大型這種政府所謂的關鍵性的這些設施啊譬如說過去培洛西議長來台灣訪問我們的這些政府公部門這種電子屏幕上面出現電子螢幕上面出現這個被害的然後有一些攻擊台灣的文字或者攻擊台美關係的文字的出現\n那這個東西你們這一次裡面認為這個要處理嗎沒有錯嗎沒關係如果有要代替回答我也可以\n那個這個主要是因為他用了一個產品就危害國家自動安全產品所以才產生這些事情所以這個從危害國家自動安全產品裡面可以做限制不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是對這種大型的公司尤其很多各自的公司的確就是要加強管理那我剛剛講就是說這個當然我們特定會公務機關這個定義這個講就是說其實各事業目的主要機關他們可以去要求\n比如說像這個像Iron可能就交通部可以就是說類似這種東西被要求的單位他有特殊的那個資料或特殊的服務那當然是可以被要求納入這個我們的特殊費工機關來特別去監管對你們從產品\n產品端這個第十條第十八條都是企圖從產品端來限制那我的意思產品端限制我等一下再跟你討論我也很支持但是除了產品端的限制如果他產品沒有問題他可能買的就是美國產品他不是買一些奇奇怪怪包括中國的\n然後呢結果他被害以至於他的舉個例子譬如說現在大型的入口有大型的廣告看板電子看板這個其實越來越多公司規模越來越大那在特定的時間點我駭入他然後就直接把我要的政治訴求譬如說兩岸有任何問題的時候他直接把政治訴求就打在那個台灣重要入口的電子屏幕上面那\n產品沒有問題就你在產品端做審核查核沒有問題他本來就產品是美國製啊再來他是大型企業他可能一時被害他沒辦法處理那\n政府這時候應該要協助吧部長你認為對嘛所以我的意思是說給你們一個法源讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取系統性的數量規模極大的\n你們可以因應有法律條文裡面政府要來提供資源協助民間處理然後防範這種安全威脅 資通安全的威脅事件所以部長我訂這一條你知道我的用心良苦讓你們有知道說我們其實可以引用這一條那這一條規範裡面到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的\n我想就授權應該你們來授權給你們來去規範出說到底哪一些部分因為這個其實影響很大如果我們只界定在\n政府只在於關注那些所謂基礎設施啊關鍵性設施啊我認為那個遠遠不足對國家安全的防護在自動安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足所以本席認為應該要來來制定這一條這個是一個很重要的原因那第二個啊我們對於我剛剛講過我們現我們在產品端上面啊我們現在是\n不只中國啦反正只要我們認為這個有安全疑慮威脅的就不可以嘛對不對那我要請跟部長討論一下就是現在的東西越來越多因為隨著科技的發展越來東西越來越多譬如說我隨便舉一個例子那個自動販賣機啊當它有Internet的功能的時候它上面也有螢幕\n它上面也可以連結上網嘛因為它的支付現在透過雲端不是我們傳統的自動販賣機投錢按下去完全機械原理然後領錢領出飲料現在的自動販賣機不是這樣那我相信越來會越複雜所以自動販賣機它是不是資訊通訊產品\n只要連網都算我認為以後會越來越多啦那個保溫杯也可以以後也會啊因為它可以直接連網然後記錄你每天喝多少水然後你什麼時候會去裝水你每次都裝多少CC然後可以辨別出你這是水還是茶還是可樂還是什麼都可能嘛都有可能那這些只要一連網它也是保溫杯也算是\n資訊通訊產品所以這個範圍你們要去界定啦因為現在我們想像裡面不可以只界定在手機啊平板啊電腦啊不是這個這些概念所以部長你現在這個這瞭解對書發部要去瞭解好那最後一個這個\n最近有一個新聞我想大家也都注意到這個前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查台港用戶的發文部長你有注意到這個新聞我先不去論說介入這個事實到底真相為何因為現在有一點各說各話那我們就靜待它的發展但本席對一點我覺得很有必要拿出來探討\n這個多數很多的團體這裡面藍藍綠綠都有不斷的我們會接到接收到陳情或者抗議抗議什麼抗議有一些文章啊為什麼會在這個Meta的這個社群平台臉書上面就消失\n那交涉之後他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說為什麼我的文章會消失但正常的程序是他們得不到任何的回應或者就算有回應都不是什麼正面回答你的問題都是牽扯其他或者一個簡單他們什麼內部的什麼規定或者內部的什麼一個原則他大概就簡單回答你這個樣子\n那本席是覺得是這樣每一個公司企業經營他有他內部的一些規定規章本席沒有意見但本席認為這種規定規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗這個檢驗包括使用者本身包括政府本身所以如果\n訴發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到原因是什麼如果你們覺得該做他該修法他就應該被修法哪有可能他把任何一個敵人滲透正是因為他不需要說明他覺得不爽他就把你刪\n是不是這樣部長你懂我的意思嗎那換言之這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠喔每一個色彩政黨都有可能被刪只要看他高不高興那他也不需要回答你啊他就跟你講說我們的公司就是可以刪\n所以Meta的審核機制的確是不是很透明那我們也在美國因為這個不透明所以連美國國會參議員也在做聽證所以我們也是看聽證的結果那再跟Meta我們會跟Meta交涉就是說這個第一個要透明化那這個要下架應該要讓民眾了解所以我想這個我們會持續關注部長我的意思剛剛你沒有聽懂我的意思就是說不要再溝通\n我們現在講任性在國防在安全上面的任性台灣我們應該主動的把這些問題\n我們就法令嘛 全世界 我們是 台灣是民主法治的國家 美國也是但台灣的國情跟美國不一樣嘛美國所面臨的即刻性的威脅 並不 台灣比他們強大 危險太多啊就我們的那個急迫性比他強化 強太多所以我們面對 民主自由沒有關係 我用法治的角度我直接速發布 認為你就是要揭露嘛\n我就直接告訴你指引是什麼我就直接公布這個叫規則甚至如果要修法立法院我們來支持我想大家都會支持啊因為你為什麼把人家刪文你應該要有一套事先你公布什麼沒有關係你至少讓我知道所以你們就是挺共的所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除那我至少知道我就不用你的嘛\n你都不告訴我表面上你又裝的一副很民主很自由言論開放但事實上你刪了什麼你為什麼要刪這個你背後是不是有這個共匪的勢力在後面指導我怎麼會知道呢我這樣講你你也不高興嘛因為你覺得你沒有嘛那你沒有你要刪人家的文你又沒有一個指導一個原則一個告訴你我的遊戲規則是什麼\n這個才是問題的所在啊所以你再去跟他溝通因為我每次在這裡講Meta你都說要去喝咖啡啦對不對從詐騙一路到今天都是這樣子嘛那本席一直認為這個不可行啦你要喝你還是可以喝但沒有效果嘛你看我們最後還不是不斷的在立法院修法給你武器他也是美國公司嘛守法很重要啊你到人家落到每一個國家落地就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛所以中華民國的法令是什麼\n我們應該速發部要有一些想法不可以每天讓這些我們的消費者在使用Meta的這些產品然後整天就在客訴整天就在跟立法院立法委員陳情整天就在媒體上在其他的平台上面去幹繳這個事情所以我是覺得這個很奇怪啦\n所以我今天無意我也不知道Meta它的準則是什麼我認為公開透明讓大家可檢驗我認為這是一個基本的common sense這也是一個基本的要求這不是什麼對而且也不是針對它全部的社群平台我們中華民國你要落地在這裡我就是要告訴你我們的法規就是這樣子你必須每一個社群平台都可被檢驗我要確保你後面不是共產黨你不是要來消滅中華民國的\n好不好部長那個委員這個這瞭解那我剛剛特別強調因為現在美國參與在做聽證會這個META這個他剛剛講這個他這對內容審核的機制希望美國政府會強迫他公開那我們會知道怎麼處理\n對啦我的意思是說不用什麼事都等美國啦你也可以先做啦就是我的意思就是叫他公佈審查一個公開透明任何的任何台灣在使用的這些平台你就公佈嘛不只我針對我不會針對一家公司以後哪一家公司都一樣嘛我的要求只是這個樣子嘛好不好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.536 --> 00:04.738\n委員好\n\n00:06.304 --> 00:35.203\n部長好部長針對今天主席安排要來審法案本席也有提了修正案的版本修了好幾條其他我想跟行政院大同小異的我們就不談其中第四條本席的版本提到政府應該提供資源協助民間處理因應及防範知通安全威脅事件\n\n00:36.765 --> 00:45.397\n部長你有注意到本席的版本嗎部裡面有沒有什麼看法對於本席這個條文的提出\n\n00:46.465 --> 01:13.798\n我們現在有這個治安本來就是需要公司協力所以我們現在是有那個就像TW社這樣一個機制讓通報協助來處理一些治安的事件那所以這個我想委員的提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同我想概念上你們不會反對但本席為什麼要加進去我希望讓你們有法源的基礎為什麼我要這樣提呢\n\n01:15.607 --> 01:41.299\n部長你看過監察院對有一個調查報告在公告時間是113年的1月18號主要的暗由就是針對這個民間企業及個人資料外洩上網被兜售的事件這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、合運租車等等其他這個企業那這個被盜的數目各自都是百萬筆、數百萬筆\n\n01:43.922 --> 02:09.318\n那本席認為這個大型的這種事件危害到大型公共事務或者是各自大量的這個洩漏本席認為這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如說單一的一個什麼貿易公司啦一個什麼民間的企業他的電腦被害或者他幾個客戶的資料被偷我認為這個不可以用相同的角度來看\n\n02:10.168 --> 02:39.648\n就像你們這次的修法裡面為什麼你會針對大型這種所謂不是大型這種政府所謂的關鍵性的這些設施啊譬如說過去培洛西議長來台灣訪問我們的這些政府公部門這種電子屏幕上面出現電子螢幕上面出現這個被害的然後有一些攻擊台灣的文字或者攻擊台美關係的文字的出現\n\n02:40.809 --> 02:48.719\n那這個東西你們這一次裡面認為這個要處理嗎沒有錯嗎沒關係如果有要代替回答我也可以\n\n02:49.571 --> 03:13.302\n那個這個主要是因為他用了一個產品就危害國家自動安全產品所以才產生這些事情所以這個從危害國家自動安全產品裡面可以做限制不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是對這種大型的公司尤其很多各自的公司的確就是要加強管理那我剛剛講就是說這個當然我們特定會公務機關這個定義這個講就是說其實各事業目的主要機關他們可以去要求\n\n03:14.062 --> 03:26.616\n比如說像這個像Iron可能就交通部可以就是說類似這種東西被要求的單位他有特殊的那個資料或特殊的服務那當然是可以被要求納入這個我們的特殊費工機關來特別去監管對你們從產品\n\n03:31.361 --> 03:50.851\n產品端這個第十條第十八條都是企圖從產品端來限制那我的意思產品端限制我等一下再跟你討論我也很支持但是除了產品端的限制如果他產品沒有問題他可能買的就是美國產品他不是買一些奇奇怪怪包括中國的\n\n03:51.371 --> 04:20.764\n然後呢結果他被害以至於他的舉個例子譬如說現在大型的入口有大型的廣告看板電子看板這個其實越來越多公司規模越來越大那在特定的時間點我駭入他然後就直接把我要的政治訴求譬如說兩岸有任何問題的時候他直接把政治訴求就打在那個台灣重要入口的電子屏幕上面那\n\n04:22.097 --> 04:35.647\n產品沒有問題就你在產品端做審核查核沒有問題他本來就產品是美國製啊再來他是大型企業他可能一時被害他沒辦法處理那\n\n04:36.721 --> 04:53.829\n政府這時候應該要協助吧部長你認為對嘛所以我的意思是說給你們一個法源讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取系統性的數量規模極大的\n\n04:54.389 --> 05:16.064\n你們可以因應有法律條文裡面政府要來提供資源協助民間處理然後防範這種安全威脅資通安全的威脅事件所以部長我訂這一條你知道我的用心良苦讓你們有知道說我們其實可以引用這一條那這一條規範裡面到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的\n\n05:16.604 --> 05:24.798\n我想就授權應該你們來授權給你們來去規範出說到底哪一些部分因為這個其實影響很大如果我們只界定在\n\n05:26.294 --> 05:50.420\n政府只在於關注那些所謂基礎設施啊關鍵性設施啊我認為那個遠遠不足對國家安全的防護在自動安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足所以本席認為應該要來來制定這一條這個是一個很重要的原因那第二個啊我們對於我剛剛講過我們現我們在產品端上面啊我們現在是\n\n05:51.480 --> 06:15.460\n不只中國啦反正只要我們認為這個有安全疑慮威脅的就不可以嘛對不對那我要請跟部長討論一下就是現在的東西越來越多因為隨著科技的發展越來東西越來越多譬如說我隨便舉一個例子那個自動販賣機啊當它有Internet的功能的時候它上面也有螢幕\n\n06:17.230 --> 06:40.382\n它上面也可以連結上網嘛因為它的支付現在透過雲端不是我們傳統的自動販賣機投錢按下去完全機械原理然後領錢領出飲料現在的自動販賣機不是這樣那我相信越來會越複雜所以自動販賣機它是不是資訊通訊產品\n\n06:43.874 --> 07:07.905\n只要連網都算我認為以後會越來越多啦那個保溫杯也可以以後也會啊因為它可以直接連網然後記錄你每天喝多少水然後你什麼時候會去裝水你每次都裝多少CC然後可以辨別出你這是水還是茶還是可樂還是什麼都可能嘛都有可能那這些只要一連網它也是保溫杯也算是\n\n07:09.517 --> 07:26.507\n資訊通訊產品所以這個範圍你們要去界定啦因為現在我們想像裡面不可以只界定在手機啊平板啊電腦啊不是這個這些概念所以部長你現在這個這瞭解對書發部要去瞭解好那最後一個這個\n\n07:28.919 --> 07:55.169\n最近有一個新聞我想大家也都注意到這個前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查台港用戶的發文部長你有注意到這個新聞我先不去論說介入這個事實到底真相為何因為現在有一點各說各話那我們就靜待它的發展但本席對一點我覺得很有必要拿出來探討\n\n07:56.569 --> 08:12.015\n這個多數很多的團體這裡面藍藍綠綠都有不斷的我們會接到接收到陳情或者抗議抗議什麼抗議有一些文章啊為什麼會在這個Meta的這個社群平台臉書上面就消失\n\n08:13.291 --> 08:35.552\n那交涉之後他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說為什麼我的文章會消失但正常的程序是他們得不到任何的回應或者就算有回應都不是什麼正面回答你的問題都是牽扯其他或者一個簡單他們什麼內部的什麼規定或者內部的什麼一個原則他大概就簡單回答你這個樣子\n\n08:37.045 --> 08:54.799\n那本席是覺得是這樣每一個公司企業經營他有他內部的一些規定規章本席沒有意見但本席認為這種規定規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗這個檢驗包括使用者本身包括政府本身所以如果\n\n08:56.365 --> 09:13.694\n訴發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到原因是什麼如果你們覺得該做他該修法他就應該被修法哪有可能他把任何一個敵人滲透正是因為他不需要說明他覺得不爽他就把你刪\n\n09:14.949 --> 09:29.570\n是不是這樣部長你懂我的意思嗎那換言之這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠喔每一個色彩政黨都有可能被刪只要看他高不高興那他也不需要回答你啊他就跟你講說我們的公司就是可以刪\n\n09:31.673 --> 09:58.329\n所以Meta的審核機制的確是不是很透明那我們也在美國因為這個不透明所以連美國國會參議員也在做聽證所以我們也是看聽證的結果那再跟Meta我們會跟Meta交涉就是說這個第一個要透明化那這個要下架應該要讓民眾了解所以我想這個我們會持續關注部長我的意思剛剛你沒有聽懂我的意思就是說不要再溝通\n\n10:00.117 --> 10:05.972\n我們現在講任性在國防在安全上面的任性台灣我們應該主動的把這些問題\n\n10:07.386 --> 10:32.737\n我們就法令嘛全世界我們是台灣是民主法治的國家美國也是但台灣的國情跟美國不一樣嘛美國所面臨的即刻性的威脅並不台灣比他們強大危險太多啊就我們的那個急迫性比他強化強太多所以我們面對民主自由沒有關係我用法治的角度我直接速發布認為你就是要揭露嘛\n\n10:33.618 --> 10:56.695\n我就直接告訴你指引是什麼我就直接公布這個叫規則甚至如果要修法立法院我們來支持我想大家都會支持啊因為你為什麼把人家刪文你應該要有一套事先你公布什麼沒有關係你至少讓我知道所以你們就是挺共的所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除那我至少知道我就不用你的嘛\n\n10:57.455 --> 11:20.832\n你都不告訴我表面上你又裝的一副很民主很自由言論開放但事實上你刪了什麼你為什麼要刪這個你背後是不是有這個共匪的勢力在後面指導我怎麼會知道呢我這樣講你你也不高興嘛因為你覺得你沒有嘛那你沒有你要刪人家的文你又沒有一個指導一個原則一個告訴你我的遊戲規則是什麼\n\n11:23.075 --> 11:52.395\n這個才是問題的所在啊所以你再去跟他溝通因為我每次在這裡講Meta你都說要去喝咖啡啦對不對從詐騙一路到今天都是這樣子嘛那本席一直認為這個不可行啦你要喝你還是可以喝但沒有效果嘛你看我們最後還不是不斷的在立法院修法給你武器他也是美國公司嘛守法很重要啊你到人家落到每一個國家落地就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛所以中華民國的法令是什麼\n\n11:53.595 --> 12:11.469\n我們應該速發部要有一些想法不可以每天讓這些我們的消費者在使用Meta的這些產品然後整天就在客訴整天就在跟立法院立法委員陳情整天就在媒體上在其他的平台上面去幹繳這個事情所以我是覺得這個很奇怪啦\n\n12:12.290 --> 12:40.626\n所以我今天無意我也不知道Meta它的準則是什麼我認為公開透明讓大家可檢驗我認為這是一個基本的commonsense這也是一個基本的要求這不是什麼對而且也不是針對它全部的社群平台我們中華民國你要落地在這裡我就是要告訴你我們的法規就是這樣子你必須每一個社群平台都可被檢驗我要確保你後面不是共產黨你不是要來消滅中華民國的\n\n12:41.530 --> 12:55.116\n好不好部長那個委員這個這瞭解那我剛剛特別強調因為現在美國參與在做聽證會這個META這個他剛剛講這個他這對內容審核的機制希望美國政府會強迫他公開那我們會知道怎麼處理\n\n12:56.290 --> 13:17.322\n對啦我的意思是說不用什麼事都等美國啦你也可以先做啦就是我的意思就是叫他公佈審查一個公開透明任何的任何台灣在使用的這些平台你就公佈嘛不只我針對我不會針對一家公司以後哪一家公司都一樣嘛我的要求只是這個樣子嘛好不好\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.536,"end":4.738,"text":"委員好"},{"start":6.304,"end":35.203,"text":"部長好部長針對今天主席安排要來審法案本席也有提了修正案的版本修了好幾條其他我想跟行政院大同小異的我們就不談其中第四條本席的版本提到政府應該提供資源協助民間處理因應及防範知通安全威脅事件"},{"start":36.765,"end":45.397,"text":"部長你有注意到本席的版本嗎部裡面有沒有什麼看法對於本席這個條文的提出"},{"start":46.465,"end":73.798,"text":"我們現在有這個治安本來就是需要公司協力所以我們現在是有那個就像TW社這樣一個機制讓通報協助來處理一些治安的事件那所以這個我想委員的提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同我想概念上你們不會反對但本席為什麼要加進去我希望讓你們有法源的基礎為什麼我要這樣提呢"},{"start":75.607,"end":101.299,"text":"部長你看過監察院對有一個調查報告在公告時間是113年的1月18號主要的暗由就是針對這個民間企業及個人資料外洩上網被兜售的事件這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、合運租車等等其他這個企業那這個被盜的數目各自都是百萬筆、數百萬筆"},{"start":103.922,"end":129.318,"text":"那本席認為這個大型的這種事件危害到大型公共事務或者是各自大量的這個洩漏本席認為這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如說單一的一個什麼貿易公司啦一個什麼民間的企業他的電腦被害或者他幾個客戶的資料被偷我認為這個不可以用相同的角度來看"},{"start":130.168,"end":159.648,"text":"就像你們這次的修法裡面為什麼你會針對大型這種所謂不是大型這種政府所謂的關鍵性的這些設施啊譬如說過去培洛西議長來台灣訪問我們的這些政府公部門這種電子屏幕上面出現電子螢幕上面出現這個被害的然後有一些攻擊台灣的文字或者攻擊台美關係的文字的出現"},{"start":160.809,"end":168.719,"text":"那這個東西你們這一次裡面認為這個要處理嗎沒有錯嗎沒關係如果有要代替回答我也可以"},{"start":169.571,"end":193.302,"text":"那個這個主要是因為他用了一個產品就危害國家自動安全產品所以才產生這些事情所以這個從危害國家自動安全產品裡面可以做限制不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是對這種大型的公司尤其很多各自的公司的確就是要加強管理那我剛剛講就是說這個當然我們特定會公務機關這個定義這個講就是說其實各事業目的主要機關他們可以去要求"},{"start":194.062,"end":206.616,"text":"比如說像這個像Iron可能就交通部可以就是說類似這種東西被要求的單位他有特殊的那個資料或特殊的服務那當然是可以被要求納入這個我們的特殊費工機關來特別去監管對你們從產品"},{"start":211.361,"end":230.851,"text":"產品端這個第十條第十八條都是企圖從產品端來限制那我的意思產品端限制我等一下再跟你討論我也很支持但是除了產品端的限制如果他產品沒有問題他可能買的就是美國產品他不是買一些奇奇怪怪包括中國的"},{"start":231.371,"end":260.764,"text":"然後呢結果他被害以至於他的舉個例子譬如說現在大型的入口有大型的廣告看板電子看板這個其實越來越多公司規模越來越大那在特定的時間點我駭入他然後就直接把我要的政治訴求譬如說兩岸有任何問題的時候他直接把政治訴求就打在那個台灣重要入口的電子屏幕上面那"},{"start":262.097,"end":275.647,"text":"產品沒有問題就你在產品端做審核查核沒有問題他本來就產品是美國製啊再來他是大型企業他可能一時被害他沒辦法處理那"},{"start":276.721,"end":293.829,"text":"政府這時候應該要協助吧部長你認為對嘛所以我的意思是說給你們一個法源讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取系統性的數量規模極大的"},{"start":294.389,"end":316.064,"text":"你們可以因應有法律條文裡面政府要來提供資源協助民間處理然後防範這種安全威脅 資通安全的威脅事件所以部長我訂這一條你知道我的用心良苦讓你們有知道說我們其實可以引用這一條那這一條規範裡面到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的"},{"start":316.604,"end":324.798,"text":"我想就授權應該你們來授權給你們來去規範出說到底哪一些部分因為這個其實影響很大如果我們只界定在"},{"start":326.294,"end":350.42,"text":"政府只在於關注那些所謂基礎設施啊關鍵性設施啊我認為那個遠遠不足對國家安全的防護在自動安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足所以本席認為應該要來來制定這一條這個是一個很重要的原因那第二個啊我們對於我剛剛講過我們現我們在產品端上面啊我們現在是"},{"start":351.48,"end":375.46,"text":"不只中國啦反正只要我們認為這個有安全疑慮威脅的就不可以嘛對不對那我要請跟部長討論一下就是現在的東西越來越多因為隨著科技的發展越來東西越來越多譬如說我隨便舉一個例子那個自動販賣機啊當它有Internet的功能的時候它上面也有螢幕"},{"start":377.23,"end":400.382,"text":"它上面也可以連結上網嘛因為它的支付現在透過雲端不是我們傳統的自動販賣機投錢按下去完全機械原理然後領錢領出飲料現在的自動販賣機不是這樣那我相信越來會越複雜所以自動販賣機它是不是資訊通訊產品"},{"start":403.874,"end":427.905,"text":"只要連網都算我認為以後會越來越多啦那個保溫杯也可以以後也會啊因為它可以直接連網然後記錄你每天喝多少水然後你什麼時候會去裝水你每次都裝多少CC然後可以辨別出你這是水還是茶還是可樂還是什麼都可能嘛都有可能那這些只要一連網它也是保溫杯也算是"},{"start":429.517,"end":446.507,"text":"資訊通訊產品所以這個範圍你們要去界定啦因為現在我們想像裡面不可以只界定在手機啊平板啊電腦啊不是這個這些概念所以部長你現在這個這瞭解對書發部要去瞭解好那最後一個這個"},{"start":448.919,"end":475.169,"text":"最近有一個新聞我想大家也都注意到這個前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查台港用戶的發文部長你有注意到這個新聞我先不去論說介入這個事實到底真相為何因為現在有一點各說各話那我們就靜待它的發展但本席對一點我覺得很有必要拿出來探討"},{"start":476.569,"end":492.015,"text":"這個多數很多的團體這裡面藍藍綠綠都有不斷的我們會接到接收到陳情或者抗議抗議什麼抗議有一些文章啊為什麼會在這個Meta的這個社群平台臉書上面就消失"},{"start":493.291,"end":515.552,"text":"那交涉之後他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說為什麼我的文章會消失但正常的程序是他們得不到任何的回應或者就算有回應都不是什麼正面回答你的問題都是牽扯其他或者一個簡單他們什麼內部的什麼規定或者內部的什麼一個原則他大概就簡單回答你這個樣子"},{"start":517.045,"end":534.799,"text":"那本席是覺得是這樣每一個公司企業經營他有他內部的一些規定規章本席沒有意見但本席認為這種規定規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗這個檢驗包括使用者本身包括政府本身所以如果"},{"start":536.365,"end":553.694,"text":"訴發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到原因是什麼如果你們覺得該做他該修法他就應該被修法哪有可能他把任何一個敵人滲透正是因為他不需要說明他覺得不爽他就把你刪"},{"start":554.949,"end":569.57,"text":"是不是這樣部長你懂我的意思嗎那換言之這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠喔每一個色彩政黨都有可能被刪只要看他高不高興那他也不需要回答你啊他就跟你講說我們的公司就是可以刪"},{"start":571.673,"end":598.329,"text":"所以Meta的審核機制的確是不是很透明那我們也在美國因為這個不透明所以連美國國會參議員也在做聽證所以我們也是看聽證的結果那再跟Meta我們會跟Meta交涉就是說這個第一個要透明化那這個要下架應該要讓民眾了解所以我想這個我們會持續關注部長我的意思剛剛你沒有聽懂我的意思就是說不要再溝通"},{"start":600.117,"end":605.972,"text":"我們現在講任性在國防在安全上面的任性台灣我們應該主動的把這些問題"},{"start":607.386,"end":632.737,"text":"我們就法令嘛 全世界 我們是 台灣是民主法治的國家 美國也是但台灣的國情跟美國不一樣嘛美國所面臨的即刻性的威脅 並不 台灣比他們強大 危險太多啊就我們的那個急迫性比他強化 強太多所以我們面對 民主自由沒有關係 我用法治的角度我直接速發布 認為你就是要揭露嘛"},{"start":633.618,"end":656.695,"text":"我就直接告訴你指引是什麼我就直接公布這個叫規則甚至如果要修法立法院我們來支持我想大家都會支持啊因為你為什麼把人家刪文你應該要有一套事先你公布什麼沒有關係你至少讓我知道所以你們就是挺共的所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除那我至少知道我就不用你的嘛"},{"start":657.455,"end":680.832,"text":"你都不告訴我表面上你又裝的一副很民主很自由言論開放但事實上你刪了什麼你為什麼要刪這個你背後是不是有這個共匪的勢力在後面指導我怎麼會知道呢我這樣講你你也不高興嘛因為你覺得你沒有嘛那你沒有你要刪人家的文你又沒有一個指導一個原則一個告訴你我的遊戲規則是什麼"},{"start":683.075,"end":712.395,"text":"這個才是問題的所在啊所以你再去跟他溝通因為我每次在這裡講Meta你都說要去喝咖啡啦對不對從詐騙一路到今天都是這樣子嘛那本席一直認為這個不可行啦你要喝你還是可以喝但沒有效果嘛你看我們最後還不是不斷的在立法院修法給你武器他也是美國公司嘛守法很重要啊你到人家落到每一個國家落地就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛所以中華民國的法令是什麼"},{"start":713.595,"end":731.469,"text":"我們應該速發部要有一些想法不可以每天讓這些我們的消費者在使用Meta的這些產品然後整天就在客訴整天就在跟立法院立法委員陳情整天就在媒體上在其他的平台上面去幹繳這個事情所以我是覺得這個很奇怪啦"},{"start":732.29,"end":760.626,"text":"所以我今天無意我也不知道Meta它的準則是什麼我認為公開透明讓大家可檢驗我認為這是一個基本的common sense這也是一個基本的要求這不是什麼對而且也不是針對它全部的社群平台我們中華民國你要落地在這裡我就是要告訴你我們的法規就是這樣子你必須每一個社群平台都可被檢驗我要確保你後面不是共產黨你不是要來消滅中華民國的"},{"start":761.53,"end":775.116,"text":"好不好部長那個委員這個這瞭解那我剛剛特別強調因為現在美國參與在做聽證會這個META這個他剛剛講這個他這對內容審核的機制希望美國政府會強迫他公開那我們會知道怎麼處理"},{"start":776.29,"end":797.322,"text":"對啦我的意思是說不用什麼事都等美國啦你也可以先做啦就是我的意思就是叫他公佈審查一個公開透明任何的任何台灣在使用的這些平台你就公佈嘛不只我針對我不會針對一家公司以後哪一家公司都一樣嘛我的要求只是這個樣子嘛好不好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":222,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時49分）謝謝主席。請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好。針對今天主席安排審查的法案，本席也提出修正版本並修了好幾條，跟行政院版大同小異，我想我們就不談。但其中第四條，本席的版本提到，政府應該提供資源，協助民間處理、因應及防範資通安全威脅事件。部長，你有注意到本席的版本嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：有。"],["蔡委員其昌：那部裡面有沒有什麼看法？對於本席這個條文的提出。"],["黃部長彥男：資安本來就需要公私協力，所以我們現在是有像TWCERT這樣的一個機制，讓通報協助來處理一些資安的事件，我想委員提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同。"],["蔡委員其昌：我想概念上你們不會反對，但本席為什麼要加進去，我希望讓你們有法源的基礎，為什麼我要這樣提？部長，你看過監察院有一個調查報告，公告時間是113年1月18號，主要的案由就是針對民間企業及個人資料外洩、上網被兜售的事件。這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、和運租車等等其他企業，被盜的數目、個資都是百萬筆、數百萬筆。危害到大型公共事務或者是個資大量的洩漏，這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如單一的一個什麼貿易公司、民間企業的電腦被駭或者幾個客戶的資料被偷，我認為不可以用相同的角度來看。就像你們這次的修法裡面，為什麼你會針對政府所謂關鍵性的這些設施，譬如過去裴洛西議長來臺灣訪問，我們的這些政府公部門電子螢幕上面出現被駭，有一些攻擊臺灣的文字或者有攻擊臺美關係的文字出現，你們這一次修法裡面認為這個要處理嗎？沒有錯嘛！沒關係，如果有人要代替你回答，我也可以。"],["黃部長彥男：這主要是因為它用了一個產品，就是危害國家資通安全的產品，才會產生這些事情，所以這個從危害國家資通安全產品裡面可以做限制。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["黃部長彥男：不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯，就是對這種大型公司，尤其有很多個資的公司，的確要加強管理。我剛剛講的是，當然特定的非公務機關的這個定義，其實各事業目的主管機關可以要求，像iLINK可能交通部可以……類似這種東西，被要求的單位有特殊資料或特殊服務，那當然是可以被要求納入我們的特殊非公務機關特別去監管。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你們從產品端，第十條、第十八條，都是企圖從產品端限制。那我的意思是，產品端限制這個我等一下再跟你討論，我也很支持，但是除了產品端的限制，如果產品沒有問題，他可能買的就是美國產品，他不是買一些奇奇怪怪的包括中國的，結果他被駭。舉個例子，譬如路口有大型廣告看板、電子看板，這個其實越來越多，公司規模越來越大，在特定的時間點駭入它，然後就直接把他的政治訴求，譬如兩岸有任何問題的時候，他直接把政治訴求就打在臺灣重要路口的電子屏幕上面。產品沒有問題，就是你在產品端做審核、查核，沒有問題，本來產品就是美國製。再來它是大型企業，可能一時被駭，沒辦法處理，那政府這時候應該要協助吧！部長，你認不認同？"],["黃部長彥男：對，這個會協助。"],["蔡委員其昌：對嘛！所以我的意思是給你們一個法源，讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取，很系統性地、數量或規模極大的你們可以因應，法律條文裡面，政府要提供資源協助民間處理，防範這種資通安全的威脅事件。所以部長，我訂這一條，你知道我的用心良苦嘛！讓你們也知道其實可以引用這一條。","這一條規範裡面，到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的？我想就授權，給你們規範出到底是哪一些部分，因為這個其實影響很大，如果我們只界定為，政府只關注那些所謂的基礎設施、關鍵性設施，我認為那個遠遠不足，對國家安全的防護，在資通安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足。所以本席認為應該要制定這一條，這是一個很重要的原因。","第二個，我剛剛講過，我們在產品端上面，現在不只中國，反正只要我們認為有安全疑慮、威脅的就不可以，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：我要跟部長討論一下，隨著科技發展，現在的東西越來越多，我隨便舉一個例子，自動販賣機，當它有internet功能的時候，它上面也有螢幕，也可以連結上網，因為支付現在透過雲端，不是我們傳統的自動販賣機，投錢、按下去完全是機械原理，然後領出飲料，現在的自動販賣機不是這樣，我相信會越來越複雜。所以自動販賣機它是不是資通訊產品？"],["黃部長彥男：只要連網的都算。"],["蔡委員其昌：連網的都算，對。我認為以後會越來越多，保溫杯也會啊！"],["黃部長彥男：可以連網。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為它可以直接連網，記錄你每天喝多少水，你什麼時候會去裝水、每次都裝多少cc，然後可以辨別出這是水、茶、可樂還是什麼，都可能嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：都有可能。"],["蔡委員其昌：這些只要一連網，保溫杯也算是資通訊產品嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：算納管的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，這個範圍你們要去界定，因為現在我們的想像裡面，不可以只界定在手機、平板、電腦，不是這概念嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：物聯網的設備太多了。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以部長，你現在這個……"],["黃部長彥男：我們會去了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，數發部要去了解，好。","最後，最近有一個新聞，我想大家也都注意到，前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查臺港用戶的發文。部長，你有注意到這個新聞嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，這個新聞我了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我先不去論介入的這個事實到底真相為何，因為現在有一點各說各話，我們就靜待它的發展。但本席對於一點，我覺得很有必要拿出來探討，很多團體、這裡面藍藍綠綠都有，我們不斷地接收到陳情或者抗議，抗議什麼？抗議有一些文章為什麼會在Meta的社群平臺臉書上面就消失了？消失了之後，他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說：為什麼我的文章會消失？但正常的程序是，他們得不到任何回應或者就算有回應，都不是什麼正面回答你的問題，都是牽扯其他的或者一個簡單的他們內部的什麼規定還是內部的一個什麼原則，它大概就簡單回答你，是這個樣子。","本席覺得是這樣，每一個公司的企業經營有他內部的一些規定、規章，本席沒有意見，但本席認為這種規定、規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗，這個檢驗包括使用者本身，包括政府本身。所以如果數發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到，原因是什麼？如果你們覺得該做、該修法，它就應該被修法，哪有可能它把任何一個……敵人滲透正是因為它不需要說明，它覺得不爽，它就把你刪了，是不是這樣？部長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠，每一個色彩的政黨都有可能被刪，只看它高不高興。它也不需要回答你，它就跟你說：我們的公司就是可以刪。"],["黃部長彥男：所以Meta的審核機制的確不是很透明，因為這個不透明，連美國國會參議院也在做聽證，所以我們也是看聽證的結果，我們會跟Meta交涉，就是第一個要透明化，要下架應該要讓民眾了解，我想這個我們會持續關注。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，部長，剛剛你沒有聽懂，我的意思就是，不要再溝通了，我們現在講韌性，在國防、在安全上面的韌性臺灣，我們應該主動地把這些問題，我們就法令來看嘛！全世界裡面臺灣是民主法治的國家，美國也是，但臺灣的國情跟美國不一樣，美國所面臨的即刻性威脅，臺灣比他們危險太多了，就是我們的急迫性比他強太多。所以我們面對民主自由，沒有關係，數發部直接用法治的角度，認為你就是要揭露！就直接告訴你指引是什麼，就直接公布這個叫規則，甚至如果要修法，我們立法院來支持！我想這個大家都會支持啊！","你為什麼把人家刪文？應該要有一套事先的……你公布什麼沒有關係，至少讓我知道你們就是挺共的，所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除，那我知道之後就不用你了嘛！你都不告訴我，表面上裝得一副很民主、很自由、言論開放，事實上你刪了什麼？你為什麼要刪這個？背後是不是有共匪的勢力在指導？我怎麼會知道呢？我這樣講你，你也不高興嘛！因為你覺得你沒有嘛！既然你沒有，你要刪人家的文，又沒有一個指導、一個原則，告訴人家你的遊戲規則是什麼，這個才是問題所在啊！","所以部長，你再去跟他們溝通，因為我們每次在這裡講Meta，你都說要去喝咖啡，對不對？從詐騙一路到今天，都是這樣子嘛！本席一直認為這個不可行，你要喝還是可以喝，但是沒有效果嘛！你看，我們最後還不是不斷在立法院修法，給你武器！","它也是美國公司嘛！守法很重要，到每一個國家落地，就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛！中華民國的法令是什麼？我們的數發部應該要有一些想法，不可以讓我們的消費者在使用Meta這些產品，然後整天都在客訴、整天都在跟立法委員陳情、整天就在媒體上和其他平台上面「訐譙」這個事情。我是覺得這個很奇怪啦！","所以我今天無意……我也知道Meta它的準則是什麼，我認為公開透明、讓大家可檢驗是一個基本的common sense，這也是一個基本的要求，而且也不是針對它嘛！全部的社群平台，要落地在我們中華民國，我就是要告訴你：我們的法規就是這樣子，必須每個社群平台都可被檢驗，我要確保你後面不是共產黨，你不是要來消滅中華民國的。好不好？部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員說的我瞭解，我剛剛也特別強調，因為美國他們在開聽證會，有關Meta的內容審核機制，希望美國政府會強迫它公開，那我們就會知道怎麼處理了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對啦，我的意思是說，不用什麼事都等美國，你也可以先做啦！我的意思就是叫它公布審查……公開透明，任何臺灣有在使用的平台就公布嘛！我不會針對一家公司啊！以後哪一家公司都一樣，我的要求是這個樣子嘛！好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再處理。"],["主席：謝謝。我們請林國成委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}}