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00:00:16,002\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個部長和署長好\n\n2\n00:00:24,074 --> 00:00:44,482\n因為我們署長大家頗為為以重任你和那個台大醫院明顯這個院長都稱他是不可多得的三刀流人才啊腎臟科醫師讀藥品的專業還有具有法律措施的學位的確是三刀流\n\n3\n00:00:45,762 --> 00:01:07,051\n那署長就任的時候也一直在強調說這個強化邊境的查驗然後呢我們其實有幾點其實真的是想要討論一下就是說署長以前也接受過政府的委託報告那有一篇叫寒川的廢水排放後的食品安全影響研析還有風險溝通\n\n4\n00:01:09,072 --> 00:01:27,530\n這幾年的署長在風險溝通上包括剛才的這個答詢上顯然看起來是很專業的但是呢再怎麼專業我是在這裡希望因為看到你的報告以後有幾個這個態度上的問題特別要跟署長就教我是希望\n\n5\n00:01:30,097 --> 00:01:56,943\n我是希望這件事情可以溝通因為啊你主持的這一個報告的這個我在報告寫的內容是講說啊以食品添加物為例當消費者在包裝上看到一連串不熟悉的化學成分的時候往往會自動聯想到這些成分可能對健康有害然後這種擔憂往往源自於知識的缺乏而非基於科學的風險評估然後\n\n6\n00:01:58,983 --> 00:02:22,341\n你後面在這裡前面你控訴了說如果擔心太過擔心看到一連串這個標示不明的化學成分會恐懼這個是來自於知識的缺乏可是你的單數又說只要消費者不食用過量只要身體的代謝功能正常這不會對身體健康過程威脅\n\n7\n00:02:23,582 --> 00:02:52,197\n前面說人民可能知識不足後面說科學的風險評估的變相還很多那我要提醒你是希望這一套不要用在立法院因為這件事情知識體大你在控訴人民知識缺乏的時候不要忘了你所加的但書必須是身體代謝功能正常而我要提醒你一件事情台灣人的代謝症候群40歲以上有將近四成\n\n8\n00:02:53,157 --> 00:03:07,933\n都罹患三高然後呢20到64歲我想都是衛福部的數據每四人就一人罹患20到6464以上更高啦每四人就一人罹患代謝症候群\n\n9\n00:03:08,813 --> 00:03:37,475\n而且三高的自支率民眾對自己罹患三高有沒有自我的感知20歲以上的高血壓自支率是68血糖自支率是66血脂的自支率是23其實三高人數在2023年你們也發表有47%將近五成的人不知道自己有代謝症候群而且都不知道自己有三高\n\n10\n00:03:38,156 --> 00:03:38,457\n所以在這種狀況裡面你在\n\n11\n00:03:43,002 --> 00:04:01,049\n對人民這個說知識缺乏的時候其實你要知道人民並不是知識缺乏其實相反的人民自己知道我可能有三高所以我對於太多的添加物我們是有擔心的OK那我要跟他溝通的是這個署長我要溝通的是這個態度你的報告的態度其實我不太能接受你的說法那我要就叫部長和署長就是說一直以來食藥署的問題在哪裡啊\n\n12\n00:04:12,313 --> 00:04:36,525\n食藥署部長其實包裝了一個形象上非常專業的確也很專業我不好意思說是包裝是真的也很專業但食安專家腎臟科毒物科的專家法律的碩士但是要真的要把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情而且要明食相符在這種狀況台灣食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多署長\n\n13\n00:04:42,147 --> 00:05:09,734\n如果整個衛福部食藥署你上任的時候你的觀察你覺得台灣面臨的這個食安的挑戰有哪些呢好謝謝這是不是請署長好那署長你來回答好了謝謝委員的提問我首先針對剛剛委員提到的寒川水廢水排水的這個計畫裡面做一點點的回應那上面寫的\n\n14\n00:05:10,774 --> 00:05:35,429\n的確像是學者當老師在教同學的時候覺得我們需要給他更多的期待把我們知道的東西從科學的依據這是政府的委外報告對政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民說你無知所以這邊我們非常非常虛心的接受委員這樣的指導我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變學者跟當官員不一樣那是你學者時候寫的好\n\n15\n00:05:37,191 --> 00:05:56,311\n謝謝委員給我一點點空間你覺得台灣的食安問題你自己從接任到現在面臨的挑戰有哪些食品安全的議題裡面我稍微說明一下最大的議題是任何一個食品安全議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題\n\n16\n00:05:57,592 --> 00:06:20,060\n所以在標定一個特定議題的過程中我們就是會食品安全的風險分析會導入你知道過去的食品安全的議題都是接避者揭發的幾乎都是接避者所以我上一次質詢問你食品也是藥品也是所以是接避者主動去揭發然後才產生問題然後你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管\n\n17\n00:06:22,656 --> 00:06:24,781\n過去是這樣子但我認為我認為江志剛署長有能力不應該只是這樣子\n\n18\n00:06:30,764 --> 00:06:55,623\n謝謝委員這邊的提點因為食安的管制其實在食安五環到現在五環2.0它是全面性的建構接避者是其中一但事實上我們的團隊行政團隊主動去查查中央地方的合作的檢驗其實跟整個產業鏈所謂的公司協力自主規制我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈接\n\n19\n00:06:57,093 --> 00:07:13,143\n更重要的事情是業者之間的工協會他們發揮了很重要的功能達到了我們努力的地方你在新聞稿上面有講了你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講說像班克列酸諾羅病毒仙人掌桿菌等生物性危害這種生物性危害蘇丹虹農藥殘留等化學性危害你們都要進行控管但是我要告訴你說這種議題歷史已經翻頁了\n\n20\n00:07:20,748 --> 00:07:25,390\n我們不要總是一直停留在過去政府要深刻的反省主動去發現問題而且解決我們當初的食安五環我們登錄制度都認為說能夠達到預警的效果然後可以主動發現問題然後政府就可以達到風險控管事實上\n\n21\n00:07:37,737 --> 00:07:57,169\n都沒有運作出來而且都是接避者然後事情發生以後才發現整個制度有問題那食藥署的過去都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳台灣的食品安全如果是這樣子的話這樣的管理方式的話會不斷的重演那我們現在在這裡就是說我在這裡要問署長你有沒有吃零食的習慣\n\n22\n00:07:58,781 --> 00:08:16,110\n署長有很少啦我這個健康取向這個齁過年期間人家送我們很多家家戶戶大概是人手一包有沒有吃過這種零食核桃核桃大家都有吃過喔簡體制的包裝來\n\n23\n00:08:18,803 --> 00:08:34,424\n但是也有合格輸入有這個代理商的這一包兩三百元這一包一百元我們去蝦皮上網購了然後呢伴手禮在夜市在網路隨手買得到\n\n24\n00:08:35,385 --> 00:08:55,872\n那我為什麼要講這個事情因為在2月3號我們辦公室發了公文給你們食藥署要求去查明大量的網路這個販售未辦理輸入產品的資訊申報未辦理查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃除了嚴重造成國人健康風險而且已經違反了食安法請貴屬詳查要求他下架而且我們去文來講說30天內\n\n25\n00:09:03,254 --> 00:09:27,693\n把你開罰的狀況來告訴我們回報一下結果你們的公文回復是這樣子啦你們去查買了六件的確就有一件發現添加不許可的這個食品添加物然後呢最後你們又講說這是電商平台所以你們叫地方政府自己去依法查查好像這件事情你就沒了好像就沒了\n\n26\n00:09:30,315 --> 00:09:42,447\n我們在講是因為立委辦公室出門叫你查立委舉一個舉一件產品就馬上通通都是然後呢到底有沒有下架有沒有開罰\n\n27\n00:09:44,666 --> 00:10:07,691\n這邊跟委員做進一步報告新疆紙皮烤核桃炒本味當初這個也非常感謝委員給我們指導跟給我們機會能夠快速的了解了解之後我們在我們檢舉的時候你還沒上任但你回文是一個多月以後3月14號才公文回覆我們所以照理說也應該開罰了有沒有開罰\n\n28\n00:10:09,912 --> 00:10:31,117\n有的我們後續呢開罰誰我們因為查查的過程當中呢標示的結果五件不符合規定所以我們因此有兩件不是標示不符合規定喔未查驗沒有代理商在這種狀況裡面他是違反很多法律不是只有標示喔還不只是標示喔同時呢我們就積極的就裁處了裁處誰啦\n\n29\n00:10:37,539 --> 00:10:45,023\n這個採取的是進口的部分我們又採取了六萬塊錢那衛生在網路電商上你們到底是罰誰跟委員報告現在網路電商的部分我們面對都現在用你們六件是去實體店鋪買的嗎\n\n30\n00:10:53,289 --> 00:11:01,196\n呃我們是用網路平台架構的對那你網路平台架構我問你說你處罰誰啊你處分的對象是誰為什麼一直都講不出來這個部分呢對於電商的部分我們只能說告訴他有違規的所以沒有處分電商\n\n31\n00:11:09,415 --> 00:11:32,473\n然後也沒有處分廠商廠商有對廠商電商有提供廠商的資料給你採取嗎對所以我們在這個部分就採取了部分我現在在問你平台下架電商的部分現在網路上是不是還可以買到為辦理輸入產品資訊申報查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃\n\n32\n00:11:33,676 --> 00:11:52,812\n還是不是可以繼續買這個報告委員我們這個持續跟這個平台只要有違規的關鍵字的部分都請他在二四小時能下架這個我們前幾天才買的蝦皮繼續在賣而且大量你點進去大家使用蝦皮現在馬上新疆紙皮烤核桃馬上全部都是\n\n33\n00:11:53,613 --> 00:12:14,827\n都沒有查驗登記沒有台灣未符合台灣相關法令你們買六件就有一件是含了很恐怖的不允許添加的有許可添加的也搞不好有的超標為了今天的質詢我還打開吃了一下吃了以後覺得很噁心但是我還是吃了喝了三杯水但是我要講說我不是要講這個\n\n34\n00:12:16,482 --> 00:12:37,164\n主角於邊境今天邊境淪陷了長驅直入沒有主角於邊境這一件事而且電商這種中國違法販賣的食品整個網路上通通都是然後邊境\n\n35\n00:12:38,171 --> 00:12:52,358\n喔不要忘了這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫你看這個已售出來兩萬包已售出兩萬包已售出幾百包已售出左下角3.8萬包台灣人\n\n36\n00:12:55,900 --> 00:13:08,768\n大家瘋狂的買啊在電商上瘋狂的買江志剛署長掌管的食藥署你說有檢舉你就叫他下架沒檢舉的就不下架了嗎\n\n37\n00:13:12,201 --> 00:13:30,105\n沒有檢舉我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲所以現在我們爬到你們有人工智慧在爬書然後有下架還會這樣子這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁來你再去看叫大家現場蝦皮再打開保證裡面還一堆我們隨時積極的我們會隨時關鍵字會沒有勾起好沒關係那你這樣子的話一個月處分幾件\n\n38\n00:13:38,257 --> 00:14:05,684\n他這裡你處分多少你說你們關鍵字然後再管理所以特別我們最近的財閥有點兇所以財閥兇的情形之下來啦多兇啊你都告訴我們到底是多兇賣到下下叫的中國產品多少有毒物質台灣人已經吃下肚而台灣的三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高對台灣人的健康風險有多嚴重\n\n39\n00:14:06,884 --> 00:14:34,936\n這個有符合食品衛生法裡面第30條的規定嗎有報官查驗嗎有經過邊境的這個把關嗎已經長驅直入了長驅直入了而且不是只有線上欸欸這個實體店家都有滿山滿谷滿坑滿谷都是中國食品而且小孩子最愛的我們還買了剛才那是大人最愛的現在是小孩最愛的這麼多\n\n40\n00:14:39,400 --> 00:15:05,271\n太多了我也不曉得要拿多出來全部都是小孩的全部都是小孩的小孩的電商就買得到的滿坑滿谷給小孩吃的零食中國來的沒有檢驗沒有查驗沒有進口商沒有受台灣法律安全規範的而且沒有政府在管理的\n\n41\n00:15:06,791 --> 00:15:16,736\n從透過網購、郵購甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入台灣沒有邊境把關了沒有邊境把關\n\n42\n00:15:18,499 --> 00:15:43,588\n所以署長為什麼要講這件事情是因為不要打高空不要唱高調這個事情你把這件事情管好就功德無量真的食品安全的風險管控在哪裡在生活當中而這個在夜市實體店面就在賣不用到網路所以到底是不知道還是不想做\n\n43\n00:15:44,848 --> 00:16:02,981\n還是你們跟你們無關我不好意思說這是裝睡的人叫不醒因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人叫不醒啦那因為江署長三刀流的不可多得的人才我就相信你不是叫不醒的人\n\n44\n00:16:04,022 --> 00:16:12,910\n所以署長你有沒有去逛過夜市你有後市場抽驗後市場檢查過嗎食藥署有預算進行輿情監測有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫然後有這個你們講的導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫還有食品大數據的智能監控及風險偵測預警研究\n\n45\n00:16:30,748 --> 00:16:36,842\n千萬百萬然後這種東西你告訴我說你們通通沒有在管然後有這些預算\n\n46\n00:16:38,300 --> 00:17:05,272\n然後呢其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉在夜市裡面夜市裡面太多太多中國違反違法的零食商品在地方政府都沒有反應上來你們都無知嗎所以在這種狀況裡面我是要講電商就算了我們大家上網就知道你知道實體店面離我們距離最近的在哪裡你知道嗎\n\n47\n00:17:06,112 --> 00:17:14,197\n你知道嗎立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品最近的在哪裡你知道嗎這個要委員提示你不知道齁在樓下立法院的福利社前面都有在賣來\n\n48\n00:17:25,751 --> 00:17:48,758\n然後呢店家還說JP很新鮮製造日期2025年你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品他說飛機、海運、小三通都很方便更不用說到台灣以後夜市市場或是大家都很好賣因為台灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃所以我們有邊境嗎邊境有把關嗎有阻絕於境外嗎\n\n49\n00:17:53,686 --> 00:18:06,496\n已經長驅直入而且變像話所以在這裡隨便都數萬包在賣然後在這種你剛剛驗出來你們自己驗出來甜味濟糖精環擠雞帶黃溪胺酸鈉\n\n50\n00:18:10,663 --> 00:18:39,519\n一規定都要退運一規定都要銷毀你開了一張罰單你還讓他繼續賣然後你是覺得長輩的肝汗腎代謝功能都可以全台灣的都沒有代謝症候群了嗎這個就是為什麼我們要我們的肝汗腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢更不要講喔這不是單一事件當去年我記得林次長有說\n\n51\n00:18:40,965 --> 00:18:52,854\n辣平糖啦魔芋爽啦在你們禁止這個以前我都還記得我的小孩也拿一個紅紅汽汽的魔芋爽回來吃我一看就說這很恐怖就他說很好吃所以這些未經中國中國來的\n\n52\n00:19:00,276 --> 00:19:18,875\n未經查驗的沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角早就充斥在全台灣的民眾的生活當中所以歷史翻了這麼多頁新的課題永遠在這裡政府政府要承擔起這個責任啊署長署長\n\n53\n00:19:21,269 --> 00:19:37,727\n三刀流人才應該不是立委跟你講這麼想的對啦這個食藥署除了你以外其他人都是舊的從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代再做到賴清德時代食藥署很多人都是三朝四朝五朝元老了啦他們喔\n\n54\n00:19:40,785 --> 00:19:48,808\n我不好意思說太難聽啦你署長沒有上警發條下面的人絕對不會上警發條然後國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面不是一個署長很厲害有那麼多改變\n\n55\n00:19:59,687 --> 00:20:16,576\n我現在提醒你是務實一點讓人民的生活真的從小的到老的從生活的所有每一項讓我們的風險降低一點少一點這個就是最務實的做法\n\n56\n00:20:18,674 --> 00:20:29,501\n謝謝委員委員特別提到風險能夠降低那我們一定會基於這個希望能夠趨近移臨臨風險很困難你剛才下面的人給你唸的稿子你們什麼爬蟲啦然後關鍵字啦那些都沒在做也沒用啦他跟你虛偽跟你說你拿來這裡回答立委馬上要打槍啊馬上上網馬上蝦皮馬上去點\n\n57\n00:20:45,480 --> 00:21:05,574\n幾萬包幾萬包還在還在你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎完全都一籌莫展嗎對不對不要再講那種官方官槍官吊官方的標準回答不要讓你下面的人蒙蔽了你啊我簡單的就是這麼說好繼續喔我要繼續看喔我們繼續追喔謝謝委員謝謝林淑芬委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11238\t16002\t好 謝謝主席是不是請我們這個部長和署長好\n24074\t44482\t因為我們署長大家頗為為以重任你和那個台大醫院明顯這個院長都稱他是不可多得的三刀流人才啊腎臟科醫師讀藥品的專業還有具有法律措施的學位的確是三刀流\n45762\t67051\t那署長就任的時候也一直在強調說這個強化邊境的查驗然後呢我們其實有幾點其實真的是想要討論一下就是說署長以前也接受過政府的委託報告那有一篇叫寒川的廢水排放後的食品安全影響研析還有風險溝通\n69072\t87530\t這幾年的署長在風險溝通上包括剛才的這個答詢上顯然看起來是很專業的但是呢再怎麼專業我是在這裡希望因為看到你的報告以後有幾個這個態度上的問題特別要跟署長就教我是希望\n90097\t116943\t我是希望這件事情可以溝通因為啊你主持的這一個報告的這個我在報告寫的內容是講說啊以食品添加物為例當消費者在包裝上看到一連串不熟悉的化學成分的時候往往會自動聯想到這些成分可能對健康有害然後這種擔憂往往源自於知識的缺乏而非基於科學的風險評估然後\n118983\t142341\t你後面在這裡前面你控訴了說如果擔心太過擔心看到一連串這個標示不明的化學成分會恐懼這個是來自於知識的缺乏可是你的單數又說只要消費者不食用過量只要身體的代謝功能正常這不會對身體健康過程威脅\n143582\t172197\t前面說人民可能知識不足後面說科學的風險評估的變相還很多那我要提醒你是希望這一套不要用在立法院因為這件事情知識體大你在控訴人民知識缺乏的時候不要忘了你所加的但書必須是身體代謝功能正常而我要提醒你一件事情台灣人的代謝症候群40歲以上有將近四成\n173157\t187933\t都罹患三高然後呢20到64歲我想都是衛福部的數據每四人就一人罹患20到6464以上更高啦每四人就一人罹患代謝症候群\n188813\t217475\t而且三高的自支率民眾對自己罹患三高有沒有自我的感知20歲以上的高血壓自支率是68血糖自支率是66血脂的自支率是23其實三高人數在2023年你們也發表有47%將近五成的人不知道自己有代謝症候群而且都不知道自己有三高\n218156\t218457\t所以在這種狀況裡面你在\n223002\t241049\t對人民這個說知識缺乏的時候其實你要知道人民並不是知識缺乏其實相反的人民自己知道我可能有三高所以我對於太多的添加物我們是有擔心的OK那我要跟他溝通的是這個署長我要溝通的是這個態度你的報告的態度其實我不太能接受你的說法那我要就叫部長和署長就是說一直以來食藥署的問題在哪裡啊\n252313\t276525\t食藥署部長其實包裝了一個形象上非常專業的確也很專業 我不好意思說是包裝是真的也很專業但食安專家 腎臟科 毒物科的專家 法律的碩士但是要真的要把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情而且要明食相符在這種狀況 台灣食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多署長\n282147\t309734\t如果整個衛福部食藥署你上任的時候你的觀察你覺得台灣面臨的這個食安的挑戰有哪些呢好 謝謝這是不是請署長好 那署長你來回答好了謝謝委員的提問我首先針對剛剛委員提到的寒川水廢水排水的這個計畫裡面做一點點的回應那上面寫的\n310774\t335429\t的確像是學者當老師在教同學的時候覺得我們需要給他更多的期待把我們知道的東西從科學的依據這是政府的委外報告對政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民說你無知所以這邊我們非常非常虛心的接受委員這樣的指導我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變學者跟當官員不一樣那是你學者時候寫的好\n337191\t356311\t謝謝委員給我一點點空間你覺得台灣的食安問題你自己從接任到現在面臨的挑戰有哪些食品安全的議題裡面我稍微說明一下最大的議題是任何一個食品安全議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題\n357592\t380060\t所以在標定一個特定議題的過程中我們就是會食品安全的風險分析會導入你知道過去的食品安全的議題都是接避者揭發的幾乎都是接避者所以我上一次質詢問你食品也是藥品也是所以是接避者主動去揭發然後才產生問題然後你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管\n382656\t384781\t過去是這樣子 但我認為我認為江志剛署長有能力不應該只是這樣子\n390764\t415623\t謝謝委員這邊的提點因為食安的管制其實在食安五環到現在五環2.0它是全面性的建構接避者是其中一但事實上我們的團隊行政團隊主動去查查中央地方的合作的檢驗其實跟整個產業鏈所謂的公司協力自主規制我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈接\n417093\t433143\t更重要的事情是業者之間的工協會他們發揮了很重要的功能達到了我們努力的地方你在新聞稿上面有講了你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講說像班克列酸 諾羅病毒 仙人掌桿菌等生物性危害這種生物性危害蘇丹虹 農藥殘留等化學性危害你們都要進行控管但是我要告訴你說這種議題歷史已經翻頁了\n440748\t445390\t我們不要總是一直停留在過去政府要深刻的反省主動去發現問題而且解決我們當初的食安五環我們登錄制度都認為說能夠達到預警的效果然後可以主動發現問題然後政府就可以達到風險控管事實上\n457737\t477169\t都沒有運作出來而且都是接避者然後事情發生以後才發現整個制度有問題那食藥署的過去都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳台灣的食品安全如果是這樣子的話這樣的管理方式的話會不斷的重演那我們現在在這裡就是說我在這裡要問署長你有沒有吃零食的習慣\n478781\t496110\t署長有很少啦 我這個健康取向這個齁 過年期間人家送我們很多家家戶戶大概是人手一包有沒有吃過這種零食 核桃 核桃大家都有吃過喔 簡體制的包裝 來\n498803\t514424\t但是也有合格輸入有這個代理商的這一包兩三百元這一包一百元我們去蝦皮上網購了然後呢伴手禮在夜市在網路隨手買得到\n515385\t535872\t那我為什麼要講這個事情因為在2月3號我們辦公室發了公文給你們食藥署要求去查明大量的網路這個販售未辦理輸入產品的資訊申報未辦理查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃除了嚴重造成國人健康風險而且已經違反了食安法請貴屬詳查要求他下架而且我們去文來講說30天內\n543254\t567693\t把你開罰的狀況來告訴我們回報一下結果你們的公文回復是這樣子啦你們去查買了六件的確就有一件發現添加不許可的這個食品添加物然後呢最後你們又講說這是電商平台所以你們叫地方政府自己去依法查查好像這件事情你就沒了好像就沒了\n570315\t582447\t我們在講是因為立委辦公室出門叫你查立委舉一個舉一件產品就馬上通通都是然後呢 到底有沒有下架有沒有開罰\n584666\t607691\t這邊跟委員做進一步報告新疆紙皮烤核桃炒本味當初這個也非常感謝委員給我們指導跟給我們機會能夠快速的了解了解之後我們在我們檢舉的時候你還沒上任但你回文是一個多月以後3月14號才公文回覆我們所以照理說也應該開罰了有沒有開罰\n609912\t631117\t有的 我們後續呢開罰誰我們因為查查的過程當中呢標示的結果五件不符合規定所以我們因此有兩件不是標示不符合規定喔未查驗沒有代理商在這種狀況裡面他是違反很多法律不是只有標示喔還不只是標示喔同時呢我們就積極的就裁處了裁處誰啦\n637539\t645023\t這個採取的是進口的部分我們又採取了六萬塊錢那衛生在網路電商上你們到底是罰誰跟委員報告現在網路電商的部分我們面對都現在用你們六件是去實體店鋪買的嗎\n653289\t661196\t呃我們是用網路平台架構的對那你網路平台架構我問你說你處罰誰啊你處分的對象是誰為什麼一直都講不出來這個部分呢對於電商的部分我們只能說告訴他有違規的所以沒有處分電商\n669415\t692473\t然後也沒有處分廠商廠商有對廠商電商有提供廠商的資料給你採取嗎對所以我們在這個部分就採取了部分我現在在問你平台下架電商的部分現在網路上是不是還可以買到為辦理輸入產品資訊申報查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃\n693676\t712812\t還是不是可以繼續買這個報告委員我們這個持續跟這個平台只要有違規的關鍵字的部分都請他在二四小時能下架這個我們前幾天才買的蝦皮繼續在賣而且大量你點進去大家使用蝦皮現在馬上新疆紙皮烤核桃馬上全部都是\n713613\t734827\t都沒有查驗登記沒有台灣未符合台灣相關法令你們買六件就有一件是含了很恐怖的不允許添加的有許可添加的也搞不好有的超標為了今天的質詢我還打開吃了一下吃了以後覺得很噁心但是我還是吃了喝了三杯水但是我要講說我不是要講這個\n736482\t757164\t主角於邊境今天邊境淪陷了長驅直入沒有主角於邊境這一件事而且電商這種中國違法販賣的食品整個網路上通通都是然後邊境\n758171\t772358\t喔 不要忘了這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫 你看這個已售出 來兩萬包 已售出兩萬包 已售出幾百包 已售出左下角3.8萬包台灣人\n775900\t788768\t大家瘋狂的買啊在電商上瘋狂的買江志剛署長掌管的食藥署你說有檢舉你就叫他下架沒檢舉的就不下架了嗎\n792201\t810105\t沒有檢舉我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲所以現在我們爬到你們有人工智慧在爬書然後有下架還會這樣子這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁來你再去看叫大家現場蝦皮再打開保證裡面還一堆我們隨時積極的我們會隨時關鍵字會沒有勾起好沒關係那你這樣子的話一個月處分幾件\n818257\t845684\t他這裡你處分多少你說你們關鍵字然後再管理所以特別我們最近的財閥有點兇所以財閥兇的情形之下來啦多兇啊你都告訴我們到底是多兇賣到下下叫的中國產品多少有毒物質台灣人已經吃下肚而台灣的三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高對台灣人的健康風險有多嚴重\n846884\t874936\t這個有符合食品衛生法裡面第30條的規定嗎有報官查驗嗎有經過邊境的這個把關嗎已經長驅直入了長驅直入了而且不是只有線上欸欸這個實體店家都有滿山滿谷 滿坑滿谷都是中國食品而且小孩子最愛的我們還買了剛才那是大人最愛的現在是小孩最愛的這麼多\n879400\t905271\t太多了 我也不曉得要拿多出來全部都是小孩的 全部都是小孩的小孩的 電商就買得到的 滿坑滿谷給小孩吃的零食中國來的 沒有檢驗 沒有查驗沒有進口商 沒有受台灣法律安全規範的而且沒有政府在管理的\n906791\t916736\t從透過網購、郵購甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入台灣沒有邊境把關了沒有邊境把關\n918499\t943588\t所以署長為什麼要講這件事情是因為不要打高空不要唱高調這個事情你把這件事情管好就功德無量真的食品安全的風險管控在哪裡在生活當中而這個在夜市實體店面就在賣不用到網路所以到底是不知道還是不想做\n944848\t962981\t還是你們跟你們無關我不好意思說這是裝睡的人叫不醒因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人叫不醒啦那因為江署長三刀流的不可多得的人才我就相信你不是叫不醒的人\n964022\t972910\t所以署長你有沒有去逛過夜市 你有後市場抽驗 後市場檢查過嗎食藥署有預算進行輿情監測有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫然後有這個你們講的導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫還有食品大數據的智能監控及風險偵測預警研究\n990748\t996842\t千萬百萬然後這種東西你告訴我說你們通通沒有在管然後有這些預算\n998300\t1025272\t然後呢其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉在夜市裡面夜市裡面太多太多中國違反違法的零食商品在地方政府都沒有反應上來你們都無知嗎所以在這種狀況裡面我是要講電商就算了我們大家上網就知道你知道實體店面離我們距離最近的在哪裡你知道嗎\n1026112\t1034197\t你知道嗎 立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品最近的在哪裡 你知道嗎這個要委員提示你不知道齁 在樓下立法院的福利社前面都有在賣 來\n1045751\t1068758\t然後呢店家還說JP很新鮮製造日期2025年你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品他說飛機、海運、小三通都很方便更不用說到台灣以後夜市市場或是大家都很好賣因為台灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃所以我們有邊境嗎邊境有把關嗎有阻絕於境外嗎\n1073686\t1086496\t已經長驅直入 而且變像話所以在這裡隨便都數萬包在賣然後在這種 你剛剛驗出來你們自己驗出來 甜味濟糖精環擠雞帶黃溪胺酸鈉\n1090663\t1119519\t一規定都要退運一規定都要銷毀你開了一張罰單你還讓他繼續賣然後你是覺得長輩的肝汗腎代謝功能都可以全台灣的都沒有代謝症候群了嗎這個就是為什麼我們要我們的肝汗腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢更不要講喔這不是單一事件當 去年我記得林次長有說\n1120965\t1132854\t辣平糖啦 魔芋爽啦在你們禁止這個以前我都還記得我的小孩也拿一個紅紅汽汽的魔芋爽回來吃我一看就說這很恐怖就他說很好吃所以這些未經中國 中國來的\n1140276\t1158875\t未經查驗的 沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角早就充斥在全台灣的民眾的生活當中所以歷史翻了這麼多頁 新的課題永遠在這裡政府 政府要承擔起這個責任啊 署長署長\n1161269\t1177727\t三刀流人才 應該不是立委跟你講這麼想的對啦這個食藥署除了你以外 其他人都是舊的從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代再做到賴清德時代食藥署很多人都是三朝四朝五朝元老了啦他們喔\n1180785\t1188808\t我不好意思說太難聽啦你署長沒有上警發條下面的人絕對不會上警發條然後國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面不是一個署長很厲害有那麼多改變\n1199687\t1216576\t我現在提醒你是務實一點讓人民的生活真的從小的到老的從生活的所有每一項讓我們的風險降低一點少一點這個就是最務實的做法\n1218674\t1229501\t謝謝委員 委員特別提到風險能夠降低那我們一定會基於這個 希望能夠趨近移臨 臨風險很困難你剛才下面的人給你唸的稿子 你們什麼爬蟲啦然後關鍵字啦 那些都沒在做也沒用啦他跟你虛偽 跟你說 你拿來這裡回答立委馬上要打槍啊 馬上上網 馬上蝦皮 馬上去點\n1245480\t1265574\t幾萬包 幾萬包 還在 還在你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎完全都一籌莫展嗎對不對不要再講那種官方 官槍官吊 官方的標準回答不要讓你下面的人蒙蔽了你啊我簡單的就是這麼說好 繼續喔 我要繼續看喔我們繼續追喔謝謝委員 謝謝林淑芬委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席是不是請我們這個部長和署長好\n因為我們署長大家頗為為以重任你和那個台大醫院明顯這個院長都稱他是不可多得的三刀流人才啊腎臟科醫師讀藥品的專業還有具有法律措施的學位的確是三刀流\n那署長就任的時候也一直在強調說這個強化邊境的查驗然後呢我們其實有幾點其實真的是想要討論一下就是說署長以前也接受過政府的委託報告那有一篇叫寒川的廢水排放後的食品安全影響研析還有風險溝通\n這幾年的署長在風險溝通上包括剛才的這個答詢上顯然看起來是很專業的但是呢再怎麼專業我是在這裡希望因為看到你的報告以後有幾個這個態度上的問題特別要跟署長就教我是希望\n我是希望這件事情可以溝通因為啊你主持的這一個報告的這個我在報告寫的內容是講說啊以食品添加物為例當消費者在包裝上看到一連串不熟悉的化學成分的時候往往會自動聯想到這些成分可能對健康有害然後這種擔憂往往源自於知識的缺乏而非基於科學的風險評估然後\n你後面在這裡前面你控訴了說如果擔心太過擔心看到一連串這個標示不明的化學成分會恐懼這個是來自於知識的缺乏可是你的單數又說只要消費者不食用過量只要身體的代謝功能正常這不會對身體健康過程威脅\n前面說人民可能知識不足後面說科學的風險評估的變相還很多那我要提醒你是希望這一套不要用在立法院因為這件事情知識體大你在控訴人民知識缺乏的時候不要忘了你所加的但書必須是身體代謝功能正常而我要提醒你一件事情台灣人的代謝症候群40歲以上有將近四成\n都罹患三高然後呢20到64歲我想都是衛福部的數據每四人就一人罹患20到6464以上更高啦每四人就一人罹患代謝症候群\n而且三高的自支率民眾對自己罹患三高有沒有自我的感知20歲以上的高血壓自支率是68血糖自支率是66血脂的自支率是23其實三高人數在2023年你們也發表有47%將近五成的人不知道自己有代謝症候群而且都不知道自己有三高\n所以在這種狀況裡面你在\n對人民這個說知識缺乏的時候其實你要知道人民並不是知識缺乏其實相反的人民自己知道我可能有三高所以我對於太多的添加物我們是有擔心的OK那我要跟他溝通的是這個署長我要溝通的是這個態度你的報告的態度其實我不太能接受你的說法那我要就叫部長和署長就是說一直以來食藥署的問題在哪裡啊\n食藥署部長其實包裝了一個形象上非常專業的確也很專業 我不好意思說是包裝是真的也很專業但食安專家 腎臟科 毒物科的專家 法律的碩士但是要真的要把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情而且要明食相符在這種狀況 台灣食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多署長\n如果整個衛福部食藥署你上任的時候你的觀察你覺得台灣面臨的這個食安的挑戰有哪些呢好 謝謝這是不是請署長好 那署長你來回答好了謝謝委員的提問我首先針對剛剛委員提到的寒川水廢水排水的這個計畫裡面做一點點的回應那上面寫的\n的確像是學者當老師在教同學的時候覺得我們需要給他更多的期待把我們知道的東西從科學的依據這是政府的委外報告對政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民說你無知所以這邊我們非常非常虛心的接受委員這樣的指導我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變學者跟當官員不一樣那是你學者時候寫的好\n謝謝委員給我一點點空間你覺得台灣的食安問題你自己從接任到現在面臨的挑戰有哪些食品安全的議題裡面我稍微說明一下最大的議題是任何一個食品安全議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題\n所以在標定一個特定議題的過程中我們就是會食品安全的風險分析會導入你知道過去的食品安全的議題都是接避者揭發的幾乎都是接避者所以我上一次質詢問你食品也是藥品也是所以是接避者主動去揭發然後才產生問題然後你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管\n過去是這樣子 但我認為我認為江志剛署長有能力不應該只是這樣子\n謝謝委員這邊的提點因為食安的管制其實在食安五環到現在五環2.0它是全面性的建構接避者是其中一但事實上我們的團隊行政團隊主動去查查中央地方的合作的檢驗其實跟整個產業鏈所謂的公司協力自主規制我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈接\n更重要的事情是業者之間的工協會他們發揮了很重要的功能達到了我們努力的地方你在新聞稿上面有講了你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講說像班克列酸 諾羅病毒 仙人掌桿菌等生物性危害這種生物性危害蘇丹虹 農藥殘留等化學性危害你們都要進行控管但是我要告訴你說這種議題歷史已經翻頁了\n我們不要總是一直停留在過去政府要深刻的反省主動去發現問題而且解決我們當初的食安五環我們登錄制度都認為說能夠達到預警的效果然後可以主動發現問題然後政府就可以達到風險控管事實上\n都沒有運作出來而且都是接避者然後事情發生以後才發現整個制度有問題那食藥署的過去都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳台灣的食品安全如果是這樣子的話這樣的管理方式的話會不斷的重演那我們現在在這裡就是說我在這裡要問署長你有沒有吃零食的習慣\n署長有很少啦 我這個健康取向這個齁 過年期間人家送我們很多家家戶戶大概是人手一包有沒有吃過這種零食 核桃 核桃大家都有吃過喔 簡體制的包裝 來\n但是也有合格輸入有這個代理商的這一包兩三百元這一包一百元我們去蝦皮上網購了然後呢伴手禮在夜市在網路隨手買得到\n那我為什麼要講這個事情因為在2月3號我們辦公室發了公文給你們食藥署要求去查明大量的網路這個販售未辦理輸入產品的資訊申報未辦理查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃除了嚴重造成國人健康風險而且已經違反了食安法請貴屬詳查要求他下架而且我們去文來講說30天內\n把你開罰的狀況來告訴我們回報一下結果你們的公文回復是這樣子啦你們去查買了六件的確就有一件發現添加不許可的這個食品添加物然後呢最後你們又講說這是電商平台所以你們叫地方政府自己去依法查查好像這件事情你就沒了好像就沒了\n我們在講是因為立委辦公室出門叫你查立委舉一個舉一件產品就馬上通通都是然後呢 到底有沒有下架有沒有開罰\n這邊跟委員做進一步報告新疆紙皮烤核桃炒本味當初這個也非常感謝委員給我們指導跟給我們機會能夠快速的了解了解之後我們在我們檢舉的時候你還沒上任但你回文是一個多月以後3月14號才公文回覆我們所以照理說也應該開罰了有沒有開罰\n有的 我們後續呢開罰誰我們因為查查的過程當中呢標示的結果五件不符合規定所以我們因此有兩件不是標示不符合規定喔未查驗沒有代理商在這種狀況裡面他是違反很多法律不是只有標示喔還不只是標示喔同時呢我們就積極的就裁處了裁處誰啦\n這個採取的是進口的部分我們又採取了六萬塊錢那衛生在網路電商上你們到底是罰誰跟委員報告現在網路電商的部分我們面對都現在用你們六件是去實體店鋪買的嗎\n呃我們是用網路平台架構的對那你網路平台架構我問你說你處罰誰啊你處分的對象是誰為什麼一直都講不出來這個部分呢對於電商的部分我們只能說告訴他有違規的所以沒有處分電商\n然後也沒有處分廠商廠商有對廠商電商有提供廠商的資料給你採取嗎對所以我們在這個部分就採取了部分我現在在問你平台下架電商的部分現在網路上是不是還可以買到為辦理輸入產品資訊申報查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃\n還是不是可以繼續買這個報告委員我們這個持續跟這個平台只要有違規的關鍵字的部分都請他在二四小時能下架這個我們前幾天才買的蝦皮繼續在賣而且大量你點進去大家使用蝦皮現在馬上新疆紙皮烤核桃馬上全部都是\n都沒有查驗登記沒有台灣未符合台灣相關法令你們買六件就有一件是含了很恐怖的不允許添加的有許可添加的也搞不好有的超標為了今天的質詢我還打開吃了一下吃了以後覺得很噁心但是我還是吃了喝了三杯水但是我要講說我不是要講這個\n主角於邊境今天邊境淪陷了長驅直入沒有主角於邊境這一件事而且電商這種中國違法販賣的食品整個網路上通通都是然後邊境\n喔 不要忘了這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫 你看這個已售出 來兩萬包 已售出兩萬包 已售出幾百包 已售出左下角3.8萬包台灣人\n大家瘋狂的買啊在電商上瘋狂的買江志剛署長掌管的食藥署你說有檢舉你就叫他下架沒檢舉的就不下架了嗎\n沒有檢舉我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲所以現在我們爬到你們有人工智慧在爬書然後有下架還會這樣子這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁來你再去看叫大家現場蝦皮再打開保證裡面還一堆我們隨時積極的我們會隨時關鍵字會沒有勾起好沒關係那你這樣子的話一個月處分幾件\n他這裡你處分多少你說你們關鍵字然後再管理所以特別我們最近的財閥有點兇所以財閥兇的情形之下來啦多兇啊你都告訴我們到底是多兇賣到下下叫的中國產品多少有毒物質台灣人已經吃下肚而台灣的三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高對台灣人的健康風險有多嚴重\n這個有符合食品衛生法裡面第30條的規定嗎有報官查驗嗎有經過邊境的這個把關嗎已經長驅直入了長驅直入了而且不是只有線上欸欸這個實體店家都有滿山滿谷 滿坑滿谷都是中國食品而且小孩子最愛的我們還買了剛才那是大人最愛的現在是小孩最愛的這麼多\n太多了 我也不曉得要拿多出來全部都是小孩的 全部都是小孩的小孩的 電商就買得到的 滿坑滿谷給小孩吃的零食中國來的 沒有檢驗 沒有查驗沒有進口商 沒有受台灣法律安全規範的而且沒有政府在管理的\n從透過網購、郵購甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入台灣沒有邊境把關了沒有邊境把關\n所以署長為什麼要講這件事情是因為不要打高空不要唱高調這個事情你把這件事情管好就功德無量真的食品安全的風險管控在哪裡在生活當中而這個在夜市實體店面就在賣不用到網路所以到底是不知道還是不想做\n還是你們跟你們無關我不好意思說這是裝睡的人叫不醒因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人叫不醒啦那因為江署長三刀流的不可多得的人才我就相信你不是叫不醒的人\n所以署長你有沒有去逛過夜市 你有後市場抽驗 後市場檢查過嗎食藥署有預算進行輿情監測有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫然後有這個你們講的導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫還有食品大數據的智能監控及風險偵測預警研究\n千萬百萬然後這種東西你告訴我說你們通通沒有在管然後有這些預算\n然後呢其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉在夜市裡面夜市裡面太多太多中國違反違法的零食商品在地方政府都沒有反應上來你們都無知嗎所以在這種狀況裡面我是要講電商就算了我們大家上網就知道你知道實體店面離我們距離最近的在哪裡你知道嗎\n你知道嗎 立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品最近的在哪裡 你知道嗎這個要委員提示你不知道齁 在樓下立法院的福利社前面都有在賣 來\n然後呢店家還說JP很新鮮製造日期2025年你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品他說飛機、海運、小三通都很方便更不用說到台灣以後夜市市場或是大家都很好賣因為台灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃所以我們有邊境嗎邊境有把關嗎有阻絕於境外嗎\n已經長驅直入 而且變像話所以在這裡隨便都數萬包在賣然後在這種 你剛剛驗出來你們自己驗出來 甜味濟糖精環擠雞帶黃溪胺酸鈉\n一規定都要退運一規定都要銷毀你開了一張罰單你還讓他繼續賣然後你是覺得長輩的肝汗腎代謝功能都可以全台灣的都沒有代謝症候群了嗎這個就是為什麼我們要我們的肝汗腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢更不要講喔這不是單一事件當 去年我記得林次長有說\n辣平糖啦 魔芋爽啦在你們禁止這個以前我都還記得我的小孩也拿一個紅紅汽汽的魔芋爽回來吃我一看就說這很恐怖就他說很好吃所以這些未經中國 中國來的\n未經查驗的 沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角早就充斥在全台灣的民眾的生活當中所以歷史翻了這麼多頁 新的課題永遠在這裡政府 政府要承擔起這個責任啊 署長署長\n三刀流人才 應該不是立委跟你講這麼想的對啦這個食藥署除了你以外 其他人都是舊的從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代再做到賴清德時代食藥署很多人都是三朝四朝五朝元老了啦他們喔\n我不好意思說太難聽啦你署長沒有上警發條下面的人絕對不會上警發條然後國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面不是一個署長很厲害有那麼多改變\n我現在提醒你是務實一點讓人民的生活真的從小的到老的從生活的所有每一項讓我們的風險降低一點少一點這個就是最務實的做法\n謝謝委員 委員特別提到風險能夠降低那我們一定會基於這個 希望能夠趨近移臨 臨風險很困難你剛才下面的人給你唸的稿子 你們什麼爬蟲啦然後關鍵字啦 那些都沒在做也沒用啦他跟你虛偽 跟你說 你拿來這裡回答立委馬上要打槍啊 馬上上網 馬上蝦皮 馬上去點\n幾萬包 幾萬包 還在 還在你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎完全都一籌莫展嗎對不對不要再講那種官方 官槍官吊 官方的標準回答不要讓你下面的人蒙蔽了你啊我簡單的就是這麼說好 繼續喔 我要繼續看喔我們繼續追喔謝謝委員 謝謝林淑芬委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.238 --> 00:16.002\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個部長和署長好\n\n00:24.074 --> 00:44.482\n因為我們署長大家頗為為以重任你和那個台大醫院明顯這個院長都稱他是不可多得的三刀流人才啊腎臟科醫師讀藥品的專業還有具有法律措施的學位的確是三刀流\n\n00:45.762 --> 01:07.051\n那署長就任的時候也一直在強調說這個強化邊境的查驗然後呢我們其實有幾點其實真的是想要討論一下就是說署長以前也接受過政府的委託報告那有一篇叫寒川的廢水排放後的食品安全影響研析還有風險溝通\n\n01:09.072 --> 01:27.530\n這幾年的署長在風險溝通上包括剛才的這個答詢上顯然看起來是很專業的但是呢再怎麼專業我是在這裡希望因為看到你的報告以後有幾個這個態度上的問題特別要跟署長就教我是希望\n\n01:30.097 --> 01:56.943\n我是希望這件事情可以溝通因為啊你主持的這一個報告的這個我在報告寫的內容是講說啊以食品添加物為例當消費者在包裝上看到一連串不熟悉的化學成分的時候往往會自動聯想到這些成分可能對健康有害然後這種擔憂往往源自於知識的缺乏而非基於科學的風險評估然後\n\n01:58.983 --> 02:22.341\n你後面在這裡前面你控訴了說如果擔心太過擔心看到一連串這個標示不明的化學成分會恐懼這個是來自於知識的缺乏可是你的單數又說只要消費者不食用過量只要身體的代謝功能正常這不會對身體健康過程威脅\n\n02:23.582 --> 02:52.197\n前面說人民可能知識不足後面說科學的風險評估的變相還很多那我要提醒你是希望這一套不要用在立法院因為這件事情知識體大你在控訴人民知識缺乏的時候不要忘了你所加的但書必須是身體代謝功能正常而我要提醒你一件事情台灣人的代謝症候群40歲以上有將近四成\n\n02:53.157 --> 03:07.933\n都罹患三高然後呢20到64歲我想都是衛福部的數據每四人就一人罹患20到6464以上更高啦每四人就一人罹患代謝症候群\n\n03:08.813 --> 03:37.475\n而且三高的自支率民眾對自己罹患三高有沒有自我的感知20歲以上的高血壓自支率是68血糖自支率是66血脂的自支率是23其實三高人數在2023年你們也發表有47%將近五成的人不知道自己有代謝症候群而且都不知道自己有三高\n\n03:38.156 --> 03:38.457\n所以在這種狀況裡面你在\n\n03:43.002 --> 04:01.049\n對人民這個說知識缺乏的時候其實你要知道人民並不是知識缺乏其實相反的人民自己知道我可能有三高所以我對於太多的添加物我們是有擔心的OK那我要跟他溝通的是這個署長我要溝通的是這個態度你的報告的態度其實我不太能接受你的說法那我要就叫部長和署長就是說一直以來食藥署的問題在哪裡啊\n\n04:12.313 --> 04:36.525\n食藥署部長其實包裝了一個形象上非常專業的確也很專業我不好意思說是包裝是真的也很專業但食安專家腎臟科毒物科的專家法律的碩士但是要真的要把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情而且要明食相符在這種狀況台灣食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多署長\n\n04:42.147 --> 05:09.734\n如果整個衛福部食藥署你上任的時候你的觀察你覺得台灣面臨的這個食安的挑戰有哪些呢好謝謝這是不是請署長好那署長你來回答好了謝謝委員的提問我首先針對剛剛委員提到的寒川水廢水排水的這個計畫裡面做一點點的回應那上面寫的\n\n05:10.774 --> 05:35.429\n的確像是學者當老師在教同學的時候覺得我們需要給他更多的期待把我們知道的東西從科學的依據這是政府的委外報告對政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民說你無知所以這邊我們非常非常虛心的接受委員這樣的指導我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變學者跟當官員不一樣那是你學者時候寫的好\n\n05:37.191 --> 05:56.311\n謝謝委員給我一點點空間你覺得台灣的食安問題你自己從接任到現在面臨的挑戰有哪些食品安全的議題裡面我稍微說明一下最大的議題是任何一個食品安全議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題\n\n05:57.592 --> 06:20.060\n所以在標定一個特定議題的過程中我們就是會食品安全的風險分析會導入你知道過去的食品安全的議題都是接避者揭發的幾乎都是接避者所以我上一次質詢問你食品也是藥品也是所以是接避者主動去揭發然後才產生問題然後你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管\n\n06:22.656 --> 06:24.781\n過去是這樣子但我認為我認為江志剛署長有能力不應該只是這樣子\n\n06:30.764 --> 06:55.623\n謝謝委員這邊的提點因為食安的管制其實在食安五環到現在五環2.0它是全面性的建構接避者是其中一但事實上我們的團隊行政團隊主動去查查中央地方的合作的檢驗其實跟整個產業鏈所謂的公司協力自主規制我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈接\n\n06:57.093 --> 07:13.143\n更重要的事情是業者之間的工協會他們發揮了很重要的功能達到了我們努力的地方你在新聞稿上面有講了你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講說像班克列酸諾羅病毒仙人掌桿菌等生物性危害這種生物性危害蘇丹虹農藥殘留等化學性危害你們都要進行控管但是我要告訴你說這種議題歷史已經翻頁了\n\n07:20.748 --> 07:25.390\n我們不要總是一直停留在過去政府要深刻的反省主動去發現問題而且解決我們當初的食安五環我們登錄制度都認為說能夠達到預警的效果然後可以主動發現問題然後政府就可以達到風險控管事實上\n\n07:37.737 --> 07:57.169\n都沒有運作出來而且都是接避者然後事情發生以後才發現整個制度有問題那食藥署的過去都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳台灣的食品安全如果是這樣子的話這樣的管理方式的話會不斷的重演那我們現在在這裡就是說我在這裡要問署長你有沒有吃零食的習慣\n\n07:58.781 --> 08:16.110\n署長有很少啦我這個健康取向這個齁過年期間人家送我們很多家家戶戶大概是人手一包有沒有吃過這種零食核桃核桃大家都有吃過喔簡體制的包裝來\n\n08:18.803 --> 08:34.424\n但是也有合格輸入有這個代理商的這一包兩三百元這一包一百元我們去蝦皮上網購了然後呢伴手禮在夜市在網路隨手買得到\n\n08:35.385 --> 08:55.872\n那我為什麼要講這個事情因為在2月3號我們辦公室發了公文給你們食藥署要求去查明大量的網路這個販售未辦理輸入產品的資訊申報未辦理查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃除了嚴重造成國人健康風險而且已經違反了食安法請貴屬詳查要求他下架而且我們去文來講說30天內\n\n09:03.254 --> 09:27.693\n把你開罰的狀況來告訴我們回報一下結果你們的公文回復是這樣子啦你們去查買了六件的確就有一件發現添加不許可的這個食品添加物然後呢最後你們又講說這是電商平台所以你們叫地方政府自己去依法查查好像這件事情你就沒了好像就沒了\n\n09:30.315 --> 09:42.447\n我們在講是因為立委辦公室出門叫你查立委舉一個舉一件產品就馬上通通都是然後呢到底有沒有下架有沒有開罰\n\n09:44.666 --> 10:07.691\n這邊跟委員做進一步報告新疆紙皮烤核桃炒本味當初這個也非常感謝委員給我們指導跟給我們機會能夠快速的了解了解之後我們在我們檢舉的時候你還沒上任但你回文是一個多月以後3月14號才公文回覆我們所以照理說也應該開罰了有沒有開罰\n\n10:09.912 --> 10:31.117\n有的我們後續呢開罰誰我們因為查查的過程當中呢標示的結果五件不符合規定所以我們因此有兩件不是標示不符合規定喔未查驗沒有代理商在這種狀況裡面他是違反很多法律不是只有標示喔還不只是標示喔同時呢我們就積極的就裁處了裁處誰啦\n\n10:37.539 --> 10:45.023\n這個採取的是進口的部分我們又採取了六萬塊錢那衛生在網路電商上你們到底是罰誰跟委員報告現在網路電商的部分我們面對都現在用你們六件是去實體店鋪買的嗎\n\n10:53.289 --> 11:01.196\n呃我們是用網路平台架構的對那你網路平台架構我問你說你處罰誰啊你處分的對象是誰為什麼一直都講不出來這個部分呢對於電商的部分我們只能說告訴他有違規的所以沒有處分電商\n\n11:09.415 --> 11:32.473\n然後也沒有處分廠商廠商有對廠商電商有提供廠商的資料給你採取嗎對所以我們在這個部分就採取了部分我現在在問你平台下架電商的部分現在網路上是不是還可以買到為辦理輸入產品資訊申報查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃\n\n11:33.676 --> 11:52.812\n還是不是可以繼續買這個報告委員我們這個持續跟這個平台只要有違規的關鍵字的部分都請他在二四小時能下架這個我們前幾天才買的蝦皮繼續在賣而且大量你點進去大家使用蝦皮現在馬上新疆紙皮烤核桃馬上全部都是\n\n11:53.613 --> 12:14.827\n都沒有查驗登記沒有台灣未符合台灣相關法令你們買六件就有一件是含了很恐怖的不允許添加的有許可添加的也搞不好有的超標為了今天的質詢我還打開吃了一下吃了以後覺得很噁心但是我還是吃了喝了三杯水但是我要講說我不是要講這個\n\n12:16.482 --> 12:37.164\n主角於邊境今天邊境淪陷了長驅直入沒有主角於邊境這一件事而且電商這種中國違法販賣的食品整個網路上通通都是然後邊境\n\n12:38.171 --> 12:52.358\n喔不要忘了這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫你看這個已售出來兩萬包已售出兩萬包已售出幾百包已售出左下角3.8萬包台灣人\n\n12:55.900 --> 13:08.768\n大家瘋狂的買啊在電商上瘋狂的買江志剛署長掌管的食藥署你說有檢舉你就叫他下架沒檢舉的就不下架了嗎\n\n13:12.201 --> 13:30.105\n沒有檢舉我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲所以現在我們爬到你們有人工智慧在爬書然後有下架還會這樣子這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁來你再去看叫大家現場蝦皮再打開保證裡面還一堆我們隨時積極的我們會隨時關鍵字會沒有勾起好沒關係那你這樣子的話一個月處分幾件\n\n13:38.257 --> 14:05.684\n他這裡你處分多少你說你們關鍵字然後再管理所以特別我們最近的財閥有點兇所以財閥兇的情形之下來啦多兇啊你都告訴我們到底是多兇賣到下下叫的中國產品多少有毒物質台灣人已經吃下肚而台灣的三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高對台灣人的健康風險有多嚴重\n\n14:06.884 --> 14:34.936\n這個有符合食品衛生法裡面第30條的規定嗎有報官查驗嗎有經過邊境的這個把關嗎已經長驅直入了長驅直入了而且不是只有線上欸欸這個實體店家都有滿山滿谷滿坑滿谷都是中國食品而且小孩子最愛的我們還買了剛才那是大人最愛的現在是小孩最愛的這麼多\n\n14:39.400 --> 15:05.271\n太多了我也不曉得要拿多出來全部都是小孩的全部都是小孩的小孩的電商就買得到的滿坑滿谷給小孩吃的零食中國來的沒有檢驗沒有查驗沒有進口商沒有受台灣法律安全規範的而且沒有政府在管理的\n\n15:06.791 --> 15:16.736\n從透過網購、郵購甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入台灣沒有邊境把關了沒有邊境把關\n\n15:18.499 --> 15:43.588\n所以署長為什麼要講這件事情是因為不要打高空不要唱高調這個事情你把這件事情管好就功德無量真的食品安全的風險管控在哪裡在生活當中而這個在夜市實體店面就在賣不用到網路所以到底是不知道還是不想做\n\n15:44.848 --> 16:02.981\n還是你們跟你們無關我不好意思說這是裝睡的人叫不醒因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人叫不醒啦那因為江署長三刀流的不可多得的人才我就相信你不是叫不醒的人\n\n16:04.022 --> 16:12.910\n所以署長你有沒有去逛過夜市你有後市場抽驗後市場檢查過嗎食藥署有預算進行輿情監測有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫然後有這個你們講的導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫還有食品大數據的智能監控及風險偵測預警研究\n\n16:30.748 --> 16:36.842\n千萬百萬然後這種東西你告訴我說你們通通沒有在管然後有這些預算\n\n16:38.300 --> 17:05.272\n然後呢其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉在夜市裡面夜市裡面太多太多中國違反違法的零食商品在地方政府都沒有反應上來你們都無知嗎所以在這種狀況裡面我是要講電商就算了我們大家上網就知道你知道實體店面離我們距離最近的在哪裡你知道嗎\n\n17:06.112 --> 17:14.197\n你知道嗎立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品最近的在哪裡你知道嗎這個要委員提示你不知道齁在樓下立法院的福利社前面都有在賣來\n\n17:25.751 --> 17:48.758\n然後呢店家還說JP很新鮮製造日期2025年你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品他說飛機、海運、小三通都很方便更不用說到台灣以後夜市市場或是大家都很好賣因為台灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃所以我們有邊境嗎邊境有把關嗎有阻絕於境外嗎\n\n17:53.686 --> 18:06.496\n已經長驅直入而且變像話所以在這裡隨便都數萬包在賣然後在這種你剛剛驗出來你們自己驗出來甜味濟糖精環擠雞帶黃溪胺酸鈉\n\n18:10.663 --> 18:39.519\n一規定都要退運一規定都要銷毀你開了一張罰單你還讓他繼續賣然後你是覺得長輩的肝汗腎代謝功能都可以全台灣的都沒有代謝症候群了嗎這個就是為什麼我們要我們的肝汗腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢更不要講喔這不是單一事件當去年我記得林次長有說\n\n18:40.965 --> 18:52.854\n辣平糖啦魔芋爽啦在你們禁止這個以前我都還記得我的小孩也拿一個紅紅汽汽的魔芋爽回來吃我一看就說這很恐怖就他說很好吃所以這些未經中國中國來的\n\n19:00.276 --> 19:18.875\n未經查驗的沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角早就充斥在全台灣的民眾的生活當中所以歷史翻了這麼多頁新的課題永遠在這裡政府政府要承擔起這個責任啊署長署長\n\n19:21.269 --> 19:37.727\n三刀流人才應該不是立委跟你講這麼想的對啦這個食藥署除了你以外其他人都是舊的從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代再做到賴清德時代食藥署很多人都是三朝四朝五朝元老了啦他們喔\n\n19:40.785 --> 19:48.808\n我不好意思說太難聽啦你署長沒有上警發條下面的人絕對不會上警發條然後國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面不是一個署長很厲害有那麼多改變\n\n19:59.687 --> 20:16.576\n我現在提醒你是務實一點讓人民的生活真的從小的到老的從生活的所有每一項讓我們的風險降低一點少一點這個就是最務實的做法\n\n20:18.674 --> 20:29.501\n謝謝委員委員特別提到風險能夠降低那我們一定會基於這個希望能夠趨近移臨臨風險很困難你剛才下面的人給你唸的稿子你們什麼爬蟲啦然後關鍵字啦那些都沒在做也沒用啦他跟你虛偽跟你說你拿來這裡回答立委馬上要打槍啊馬上上網馬上蝦皮馬上去點\n\n20:45.480 --> 21:05.574\n幾萬包幾萬包還在還在你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎完全都一籌莫展嗎對不對不要再講那種官方官槍官吊官方的標準回答不要讓你下面的人蒙蔽了你啊我簡單的就是這麼說好繼續喔我要繼續看喔我們繼續追喔謝謝委員謝謝林淑芬委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.238,"end":16.002,"text":"好 謝謝主席是不是請我們這個部長和署長好"},{"start":24.074,"end":44.482,"text":"因為我們署長大家頗為為以重任你和那個台大醫院明顯這個院長都稱他是不可多得的三刀流人才啊腎臟科醫師讀藥品的專業還有具有法律措施的學位的確是三刀流"},{"start":45.762,"end":67.051,"text":"那署長就任的時候也一直在強調說這個強化邊境的查驗然後呢我們其實有幾點其實真的是想要討論一下就是說署長以前也接受過政府的委託報告那有一篇叫寒川的廢水排放後的食品安全影響研析還有風險溝通"},{"start":69.072,"end":87.53,"text":"這幾年的署長在風險溝通上包括剛才的這個答詢上顯然看起來是很專業的但是呢再怎麼專業我是在這裡希望因為看到你的報告以後有幾個這個態度上的問題特別要跟署長就教我是希望"},{"start":90.097,"end":116.943,"text":"我是希望這件事情可以溝通因為啊你主持的這一個報告的這個我在報告寫的內容是講說啊以食品添加物為例當消費者在包裝上看到一連串不熟悉的化學成分的時候往往會自動聯想到這些成分可能對健康有害然後這種擔憂往往源自於知識的缺乏而非基於科學的風險評估然後"},{"start":118.983,"end":142.341,"text":"你後面在這裡前面你控訴了說如果擔心太過擔心看到一連串這個標示不明的化學成分會恐懼這個是來自於知識的缺乏可是你的單數又說只要消費者不食用過量只要身體的代謝功能正常這不會對身體健康過程威脅"},{"start":143.582,"end":172.197,"text":"前面說人民可能知識不足後面說科學的風險評估的變相還很多那我要提醒你是希望這一套不要用在立法院因為這件事情知識體大你在控訴人民知識缺乏的時候不要忘了你所加的但書必須是身體代謝功能正常而我要提醒你一件事情台灣人的代謝症候群40歲以上有將近四成"},{"start":173.157,"end":187.933,"text":"都罹患三高然後呢20到64歲我想都是衛福部的數據每四人就一人罹患20到6464以上更高啦每四人就一人罹患代謝症候群"},{"start":188.813,"end":217.475,"text":"而且三高的自支率民眾對自己罹患三高有沒有自我的感知20歲以上的高血壓自支率是68血糖自支率是66血脂的自支率是23其實三高人數在2023年你們也發表有47%將近五成的人不知道自己有代謝症候群而且都不知道自己有三高"},{"start":218.156,"end":218.457,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面你在"},{"start":223.002,"end":241.049,"text":"對人民這個說知識缺乏的時候其實你要知道人民並不是知識缺乏其實相反的人民自己知道我可能有三高所以我對於太多的添加物我們是有擔心的OK那我要跟他溝通的是這個署長我要溝通的是這個態度你的報告的態度其實我不太能接受你的說法那我要就叫部長和署長就是說一直以來食藥署的問題在哪裡啊"},{"start":252.313,"end":276.525,"text":"食藥署部長其實包裝了一個形象上非常專業的確也很專業 我不好意思說是包裝是真的也很專業但食安專家 腎臟科 毒物科的專家 法律的碩士但是要真的要把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情而且要明食相符在這種狀況 台灣食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多署長"},{"start":282.147,"end":309.734,"text":"如果整個衛福部食藥署你上任的時候你的觀察你覺得台灣面臨的這個食安的挑戰有哪些呢好 謝謝這是不是請署長好 那署長你來回答好了謝謝委員的提問我首先針對剛剛委員提到的寒川水廢水排水的這個計畫裡面做一點點的回應那上面寫的"},{"start":310.774,"end":335.429,"text":"的確像是學者當老師在教同學的時候覺得我們需要給他更多的期待把我們知道的東西從科學的依據這是政府的委外報告對政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民說你無知所以這邊我們非常非常虛心的接受委員這樣的指導我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變學者跟當官員不一樣那是你學者時候寫的好"},{"start":337.191,"end":356.311,"text":"謝謝委員給我一點點空間你覺得台灣的食安問題你自己從接任到現在面臨的挑戰有哪些食品安全的議題裡面我稍微說明一下最大的議題是任何一個食品安全議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題"},{"start":357.592,"end":380.06,"text":"所以在標定一個特定議題的過程中我們就是會食品安全的風險分析會導入你知道過去的食品安全的議題都是接避者揭發的幾乎都是接避者所以我上一次質詢問你食品也是藥品也是所以是接避者主動去揭發然後才產生問題然後你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管"},{"start":382.656,"end":384.781,"text":"過去是這樣子 但我認為我認為江志剛署長有能力不應該只是這樣子"},{"start":390.764,"end":415.623,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的提點因為食安的管制其實在食安五環到現在五環2.0它是全面性的建構接避者是其中一但事實上我們的團隊行政團隊主動去查查中央地方的合作的檢驗其實跟整個產業鏈所謂的公司協力自主規制我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈接"},{"start":417.093,"end":433.143,"text":"更重要的事情是業者之間的工協會他們發揮了很重要的功能達到了我們努力的地方你在新聞稿上面有講了你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講說像班克列酸 諾羅病毒 仙人掌桿菌等生物性危害這種生物性危害蘇丹虹 農藥殘留等化學性危害你們都要進行控管但是我要告訴你說這種議題歷史已經翻頁了"},{"start":440.748,"end":445.39,"text":"我們不要總是一直停留在過去政府要深刻的反省主動去發現問題而且解決我們當初的食安五環我們登錄制度都認為說能夠達到預警的效果然後可以主動發現問題然後政府就可以達到風險控管事實上"},{"start":457.737,"end":477.169,"text":"都沒有運作出來而且都是接避者然後事情發生以後才發現整個制度有問題那食藥署的過去都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳台灣的食品安全如果是這樣子的話這樣的管理方式的話會不斷的重演那我們現在在這裡就是說我在這裡要問署長你有沒有吃零食的習慣"},{"start":478.781,"end":496.11,"text":"署長有很少啦 我這個健康取向這個齁 過年期間人家送我們很多家家戶戶大概是人手一包有沒有吃過這種零食 核桃 核桃大家都有吃過喔 簡體制的包裝 來"},{"start":498.803,"end":514.424,"text":"但是也有合格輸入有這個代理商的這一包兩三百元這一包一百元我們去蝦皮上網購了然後呢伴手禮在夜市在網路隨手買得到"},{"start":515.385,"end":535.872,"text":"那我為什麼要講這個事情因為在2月3號我們辦公室發了公文給你們食藥署要求去查明大量的網路這個販售未辦理輸入產品的資訊申報未辦理查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃除了嚴重造成國人健康風險而且已經違反了食安法請貴屬詳查要求他下架而且我們去文來講說30天內"},{"start":543.254,"end":567.693,"text":"把你開罰的狀況來告訴我們回報一下結果你們的公文回復是這樣子啦你們去查買了六件的確就有一件發現添加不許可的這個食品添加物然後呢最後你們又講說這是電商平台所以你們叫地方政府自己去依法查查好像這件事情你就沒了好像就沒了"},{"start":570.315,"end":582.447,"text":"我們在講是因為立委辦公室出門叫你查立委舉一個舉一件產品就馬上通通都是然後呢 到底有沒有下架有沒有開罰"},{"start":584.666,"end":607.691,"text":"這邊跟委員做進一步報告新疆紙皮烤核桃炒本味當初這個也非常感謝委員給我們指導跟給我們機會能夠快速的了解了解之後我們在我們檢舉的時候你還沒上任但你回文是一個多月以後3月14號才公文回覆我們所以照理說也應該開罰了有沒有開罰"},{"start":609.912,"end":631.117,"text":"有的 我們後續呢開罰誰我們因為查查的過程當中呢標示的結果五件不符合規定所以我們因此有兩件不是標示不符合規定喔未查驗沒有代理商在這種狀況裡面他是違反很多法律不是只有標示喔還不只是標示喔同時呢我們就積極的就裁處了裁處誰啦"},{"start":637.539,"end":645.023,"text":"這個採取的是進口的部分我們又採取了六萬塊錢那衛生在網路電商上你們到底是罰誰跟委員報告現在網路電商的部分我們面對都現在用你們六件是去實體店鋪買的嗎"},{"start":653.289,"end":661.196,"text":"呃我們是用網路平台架構的對那你網路平台架構我問你說你處罰誰啊你處分的對象是誰為什麼一直都講不出來這個部分呢對於電商的部分我們只能說告訴他有違規的所以沒有處分電商"},{"start":669.415,"end":692.473,"text":"然後也沒有處分廠商廠商有對廠商電商有提供廠商的資料給你採取嗎對所以我們在這個部分就採取了部分我現在在問你平台下架電商的部分現在網路上是不是還可以買到為辦理輸入產品資訊申報查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃"},{"start":693.676,"end":712.812,"text":"還是不是可以繼續買這個報告委員我們這個持續跟這個平台只要有違規的關鍵字的部分都請他在二四小時能下架這個我們前幾天才買的蝦皮繼續在賣而且大量你點進去大家使用蝦皮現在馬上新疆紙皮烤核桃馬上全部都是"},{"start":713.613,"end":734.827,"text":"都沒有查驗登記沒有台灣未符合台灣相關法令你們買六件就有一件是含了很恐怖的不允許添加的有許可添加的也搞不好有的超標為了今天的質詢我還打開吃了一下吃了以後覺得很噁心但是我還是吃了喝了三杯水但是我要講說我不是要講這個"},{"start":736.482,"end":757.164,"text":"主角於邊境今天邊境淪陷了長驅直入沒有主角於邊境這一件事而且電商這種中國違法販賣的食品整個網路上通通都是然後邊境"},{"start":758.171,"end":772.358,"text":"喔 不要忘了這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫 你看這個已售出 來兩萬包 已售出兩萬包 已售出幾百包 已售出左下角3.8萬包台灣人"},{"start":775.9,"end":788.768,"text":"大家瘋狂的買啊在電商上瘋狂的買江志剛署長掌管的食藥署你說有檢舉你就叫他下架沒檢舉的就不下架了嗎"},{"start":792.201,"end":810.105,"text":"沒有檢舉我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲所以現在我們爬到你們有人工智慧在爬書然後有下架還會這樣子這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁來你再去看叫大家現場蝦皮再打開保證裡面還一堆我們隨時積極的我們會隨時關鍵字會沒有勾起好沒關係那你這樣子的話一個月處分幾件"},{"start":818.257,"end":845.684,"text":"他這裡你處分多少你說你們關鍵字然後再管理所以特別我們最近的財閥有點兇所以財閥兇的情形之下來啦多兇啊你都告訴我們到底是多兇賣到下下叫的中國產品多少有毒物質台灣人已經吃下肚而台灣的三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高對台灣人的健康風險有多嚴重"},{"start":846.884,"end":874.936,"text":"這個有符合食品衛生法裡面第30條的規定嗎有報官查驗嗎有經過邊境的這個把關嗎已經長驅直入了長驅直入了而且不是只有線上欸欸這個實體店家都有滿山滿谷 滿坑滿谷都是中國食品而且小孩子最愛的我們還買了剛才那是大人最愛的現在是小孩最愛的這麼多"},{"start":879.4,"end":905.271,"text":"太多了 我也不曉得要拿多出來全部都是小孩的 全部都是小孩的小孩的 電商就買得到的 滿坑滿谷給小孩吃的零食中國來的 沒有檢驗 沒有查驗沒有進口商 沒有受台灣法律安全規範的而且沒有政府在管理的"},{"start":906.791,"end":916.736,"text":"從透過網購、郵購甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入台灣沒有邊境把關了沒有邊境把關"},{"start":918.499,"end":943.588,"text":"所以署長為什麼要講這件事情是因為不要打高空不要唱高調這個事情你把這件事情管好就功德無量真的食品安全的風險管控在哪裡在生活當中而這個在夜市實體店面就在賣不用到網路所以到底是不知道還是不想做"},{"start":944.848,"end":962.981,"text":"還是你們跟你們無關我不好意思說這是裝睡的人叫不醒因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人叫不醒啦那因為江署長三刀流的不可多得的人才我就相信你不是叫不醒的人"},{"start":964.022,"end":972.91,"text":"所以署長你有沒有去逛過夜市 你有後市場抽驗 後市場檢查過嗎食藥署有預算進行輿情監測有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫然後有這個你們講的導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫還有食品大數據的智能監控及風險偵測預警研究"},{"start":990.748,"end":996.842,"text":"千萬百萬然後這種東西你告訴我說你們通通沒有在管然後有這些預算"},{"start":998.3,"end":1025.272,"text":"然後呢其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉在夜市裡面夜市裡面太多太多中國違反違法的零食商品在地方政府都沒有反應上來你們都無知嗎所以在這種狀況裡面我是要講電商就算了我們大家上網就知道你知道實體店面離我們距離最近的在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":1026.112,"end":1034.197,"text":"你知道嗎 立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品最近的在哪裡 你知道嗎這個要委員提示你不知道齁 在樓下立法院的福利社前面都有在賣 來"},{"start":1045.751,"end":1068.758,"text":"然後呢店家還說JP很新鮮製造日期2025年你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品他說飛機、海運、小三通都很方便更不用說到台灣以後夜市市場或是大家都很好賣因為台灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃所以我們有邊境嗎邊境有把關嗎有阻絕於境外嗎"},{"start":1073.686,"end":1086.496,"text":"已經長驅直入 而且變像話所以在這裡隨便都數萬包在賣然後在這種 你剛剛驗出來你們自己驗出來 甜味濟糖精環擠雞帶黃溪胺酸鈉"},{"start":1090.663,"end":1119.519,"text":"一規定都要退運一規定都要銷毀你開了一張罰單你還讓他繼續賣然後你是覺得長輩的肝汗腎代謝功能都可以全台灣的都沒有代謝症候群了嗎這個就是為什麼我們要我們的肝汗腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢更不要講喔這不是單一事件當 去年我記得林次長有說"},{"start":1120.965,"end":1132.854,"text":"辣平糖啦 魔芋爽啦在你們禁止這個以前我都還記得我的小孩也拿一個紅紅汽汽的魔芋爽回來吃我一看就說這很恐怖就他說很好吃所以這些未經中國 中國來的"},{"start":1140.276,"end":1158.875,"text":"未經查驗的 沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角早就充斥在全台灣的民眾的生活當中所以歷史翻了這麼多頁 新的課題永遠在這裡政府 政府要承擔起這個責任啊 署長署長"},{"start":1161.269,"end":1177.727,"text":"三刀流人才 應該不是立委跟你講這麼想的對啦這個食藥署除了你以外 其他人都是舊的從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代再做到賴清德時代食藥署很多人都是三朝四朝五朝元老了啦他們喔"},{"start":1180.785,"end":1188.808,"text":"我不好意思說太難聽啦你署長沒有上警發條下面的人絕對不會上警發條然後國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面不是一個署長很厲害有那麼多改變"},{"start":1199.687,"end":1216.576,"text":"我現在提醒你是務實一點讓人民的生活真的從小的到老的從生活的所有每一項讓我們的風險降低一點少一點這個就是最務實的做法"},{"start":1218.674,"end":1229.501,"text":"謝謝委員 委員特別提到風險能夠降低那我們一定會基於這個 希望能夠趨近移臨 臨風險很困難你剛才下面的人給你唸的稿子 你們什麼爬蟲啦然後關鍵字啦 那些都沒在做也沒用啦他跟你虛偽 跟你說 你拿來這裡回答立委馬上要打槍啊 馬上上網 馬上蝦皮 馬上去點"},{"start":1245.48,"end":1265.574,"text":"幾萬包 幾萬包 還在 還在你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎完全都一籌莫展嗎對不對不要再講那種官方 官槍官吊 官方的標準回答不要讓你下面的人蒙蔽了你啊我簡單的就是這麼說好 繼續喔 我要繼續看喔我們繼續追喔謝謝委員 謝謝林淑芬委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時43分）謝謝主席，是不是請部長和署長？"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長你好。因為署長是大家頗委以重任，你和臺大醫院吳明賢院長都稱他是不可多得的三刀流人才，腎臟科醫師、毒物藥品專業，還具有法律碩士學位，的確是三刀流。署長就任時也一直在強調，強化邊境的查驗，我們有幾點其實真的是想要討論一下，就是署長以前也接受過政府的委託做報告，有一篇叫「含氚廢水排放後之食品安全影響研析及風險溝通」，這幾年署長在風險溝通上，包括剛才的答詢中顯然看起來是很專業。但是再怎麼專業，看到你的報告以後有幾個態度上的問題，特別要跟署長就教，我是希望這件事情可以溝通，因為你主持的這一個委託報告寫的內容是講，以食品添加物為例，當消費者在包裝上看到一連串不熟悉的化學成分時，往往會自動聯想到這些成分可能對健康有害。然而，這種擔憂往往源自於知識的缺乏，而非基於科學的風險評估。你先控訴說，看到一連串標示不明的化學成分會恐懼是來自於知識的缺乏，可是你的但書又說，只要消費者不食用過量，並且身體的代謝功能正常，這不會對身體健康構成威脅。前面說人民可能知識不足，後面說科學的風險評估變項還很多，那我要提醒你的是，希望這一套不要用在立法院，因為這件事情茲事體大。","你在控訴人民知識缺乏的時候，不要忘了你所加的但書是必須身體代謝功能正常，而我要提醒你一件事情，根據衛福部的數據，臺灣人40歲以上有將近四成罹患三高，20到64歲（64歲以上更高）每四人就有一人罹患代謝症候群，而且三高的自知率（民眾對自己罹患三高有沒有自我感知），20歲以上對高血壓的自知率是68%，對血糖的自知率是66%，對血脂的自知率是23%。其實2023年你們也發表，有47%、將近五成的人不知道自己有代謝症候群，而且都不知道自己有三高。所以在這種狀況之下，當你在對人民說知識缺乏的時候，其實你要知道，人民並不是知識缺乏，而是相反的，人民知道自己可能有三高，所以對於太多的添加物是有擔心的。","OK，署長，我要溝通的是這個態度。對於你的報告的態度、你的說法，其實我不太能接受。","我要就教部長和署長的是，一直以來，食藥署的問題在哪裡？部長為食藥署包裝了一個形象非常專業，的確也很專業，我不好意思說是包裝，是真的也很專業，但食安專家、腎臟科和毒物科專家、法律碩士，要真的把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情，而且要名實相副。在這種狀況下，臺灣在食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多，署長，以整個衛福部食藥署而言，根據你上任時的觀察，你覺得臺灣面臨的食安挑戰有哪些呢？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，是不是請署長來回答？"],["林委員淑芬：好，署長來回答好了。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的提問。首先針對剛才委員提到的含氚廢水排放的計畫做一點點回應，上面寫得的確像是學者、老師在教同學的時候，覺得我們需要給他更多的期待，把我們知道的東西，從科學依據……"],["林委員淑芬：這是政府的委外報告……"],["姜署長至剛：對、對、對，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民，說你無知。"],["姜署長至剛：所以我們非常、非常虛心地接受委員這樣的指導，我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變，我們希望……"],["林委員淑芬：當學者跟當官員不一樣，那是你當學者的時候寫的。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員給我一點點空間。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！那你覺得有關臺灣的食安問題，從你接任到現在，面臨的挑戰有哪些？"],["姜署長至剛：在食品安全的議題裡面，我稍微說明一下，最大的議題是任何一個食品安全的議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題，在標定特定議題的過程中，我們就會導入食品安全的風險分析。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道，過去食品安全的議題都是揭弊者揭發的耶！"],["姜署長至剛：對，這個……"],["林委員淑芬：幾乎都是揭弊者！所以我上次質詢就問你，食品也是，藥品也是，都是揭弊者主動去揭發才產生問題，然後你們才去做風險評估、才去做風險控管，過去是這樣子。但我認為姜至剛署長有能力，不應該只是這樣子！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的提點，因為食安的管制從食安五環到現在五環2.0，它是全面性的建構，揭弊者是其中之一，但事實上我們的行政團隊主動去查察、中央和地方合作檢驗，跟整個產業鏈所謂的公私協力、自主規制，我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈結。更重要的事情是，業者之間的公協會發揮了很重要的功能，都達到了我們努力的地方。"],["林委員淑芬：好，這些你在新聞稿上面已經講了，你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講到，像邦克列酸、諾羅病毒、仙人掌桿菌等生物性危害，還有蘇丹紅、農藥殘留等化學性危害，你們都要進行控管。但是我要告訴你，這種議題歷史已經翻頁了，我們不要一直停留在過去。政府要深刻地反省，主動去發現問題、解決問題！當初食安五環的登錄制度都認為能夠達到預警的效果、可以主動發現問題，然後政府就可以做到風險控管，事實上都沒有運作出來，而且都是揭弊者提出，事情發生以後才發現整個制度有問題。食藥署過去的做法都是頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫腳，臺灣的食品安全如果是這樣的管理方式，事情會不斷重演！","我在這裡要問署長，你有沒有吃零食的習慣？"],["姜署長至剛：很少啦！我是健康取向。"],["林委員淑芬：我手上這種零食過年期間人家送我們很多，家家戶戶大概人手一包，你有沒有吃過？核桃！大家都有吃過，有這種簡體字的包裝，但是也有這種有代理商的。有代理商的這包兩、三百元，另一包一百元，是我們去蝦皮上網購的。這種伴手禮在夜市、在網路隨手都買得到。我為什麼要講這個事情？因為2月3日我們辦公室發公文給食藥署，要求查明網路大量販賣未辦理輸入產品資訊申報、未辦理查驗的「新疆紙皮烤核桃」，除嚴重造成國人健康風險，並已違反食安法，請貴署詳查，要求它下架。而且我們去文還請你們在30天內把開罰狀況告訴我們，回報一下。結果你們的回復是：你們去查、買了6件，的確發現其中一件添加了不得添加的食品添加物，最後還說因為這是電商平台，所以你們要叫地方政府自己去依法查察。好像這件事情就沒了！","本席會講這件事情是因為，立委辦公室出文叫你查，立委舉一件產品就馬上統統都是，然後呢？到底有沒有下架？有沒有開罰？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做進一步報告，有關「新疆紙皮烤核桃（草本味）」，當初也非常感謝委員給我們指導，讓我們有機會能夠快速地瞭解，瞭解之後我們在網路平台……"],["林委員淑芬：我們檢舉的時候，你還沒上任，但你回文是一個多月以後，3月14日才回文給我們，所以照理說也應該開罰了，有沒有開罰？"],["姜署長至剛：有的，我們後續在網路平台採購6件……"],["林委員淑芬：開罰誰？"],["姜署長至剛：因為查察的過程當中，發現標示有5件不符合規定，因此有2件……"],["林委員淑芬：不是標示不符合規定喔！未查驗、沒有代理商，在這種狀況裡面，它是違反很多法令的！"],["姜署長至剛：對，違反食安法……"],["林委員淑芬：不是只有標示喔！"],["姜署長至剛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：還不只是標示喔！"],["姜署長至剛：有違反食安法的部分，同時我們就積極裁處了。"],["林委員淑芬：裁處誰啦！"],["姜署長至剛：裁處的是進口的部分，我們裁處了6萬塊錢，衛生局也持續……"],["林委員淑芬：在網路電商上，你們到底是罰誰？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，現在網路電商的部分，我們面對的都是用人工智慧去爬蟲……"],["林委員淑芬：你們6件是去實體店鋪買的嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們是用網路平台價購的。"],["林委員淑芬：那我就是問你處罰誰啊！你處分的對象是誰？為什麼一直都講不出來？"],["姜署長至剛：對於電商的部分，我們只能告訴他有違規，請他下架……"],["林委員淑芬：所以沒有處分電商？也沒有處分廠商？"],["姜署長至剛：廠商有。對廠商、對廠商！"],["林委員淑芬：對廠商？"],["姜署長至剛：是的，有處分。"],["林委員淑芬：電商有提供廠商的資料給你裁處嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：對，所以我們在裁處的部分，電商是平台下架。"],["林委員淑芬：現在是不是還可以在網路上買到未辦理輸入產品資訊申報、查驗的「新疆紙皮烤核桃」？是不是可以繼續買到？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們持續請這個平台，只要有違規的關鍵字，都請他在24小時內下架。"],["林委員淑芬：這個是我們前幾天才買的，蝦皮繼續在賣，而且大量在賣。你可以點進去看，大家現在使用蝦皮搜尋「新疆紙皮烤核桃」，馬上看到全部都是，都是沒有查驗登記，未符合臺灣相關法令的，你們買六件就有一件是含了很恐怖的、不允許添加的，有許可添加的也搞不好會超標。為了今天的質詢，我還打開吃了一下，吃了以後覺得很噁心，但是我還是吃了，喝了3杯水，但我不是要講這個，阻絕於邊境，今天邊境淪陷了，長驅直入，沒有阻絕於邊境這件事，而且電商販賣違法的中國食品，整個網路上通通都是，然後邊境……不要忘了，這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫，你看這個已售出2萬包、已售出幾百包，簡報左下角的已售出3.8萬包，臺灣人瘋狂的買啊！在電商平臺上瘋狂的買。姜至剛署長掌管的食藥署，你說有檢舉就叫他下架，沒檢舉的就不下架了嗎？有在管嗎？有政府在管嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，沒有檢舉的話，我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲，所以現在我們爬的很厲害……"],["林委員淑芬：你們有人工智慧在爬梳？"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["林委員淑芬：然後有下架，還會這樣子？這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁。來，你再去看，叫大家現場把蝦皮打開，保證裡面還有一堆，關鍵字……"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，我們隨時會積極的針對關鍵字登記，持續的來爬……"],["林委員淑芬：你有勾稽……好，沒關係，這樣子的話，你們一個月處分幾件？這裡你處分了多少件？你說你們用關鍵字在管理……"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們最近的裁罰有點凶，所以在裁罰凶的情形之下……"],["林委員淑芬：多凶啊？你就告訴我們，到底是多凶？"],["姜署長至剛：我們希望能夠輔導代替裁罰，希望他們能夠糾正……"],["林委員淑芬：賣到嚇嚇叫的中國產品，有多少有毒物質讓臺灣人已經吃下肚？臺灣三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高？對臺灣人的健康風險有多嚴重？這有符合食品衛生法第三十條的規定嗎？有報關查驗嗎？有經過邊境的把關嗎？這已經長驅直入了，而且不是只有線上，實體店家都有，滿山滿谷、滿坑滿谷都是中國食品，而且是小孩子最愛的，我們還買了……剛才那是大人最愛的，現在是小孩最愛的，有這麼多，太多了！我也不曉得要拿什麼出來，全部都是小孩的零食，電商就買得到，滿坑滿谷都是給小孩吃的零食，中國來的零食沒有檢驗、沒有查驗、沒有進口商、沒有受臺灣法律安全規範，而且沒有政府在管理，都透過網購、郵購，甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入，臺灣沒有邊境把關了。所以署長，本席為什麼講這件事情？是因為不要打高空、不要唱高調，你把這件事情管好就功德無量，真的！食品安全的風險管控在哪裡？在生活當中，這個在夜市實體店面就在賣，不用到網路，所以你們到底是不知道還是不想做？還是跟你們無關？我不好意思說，這是裝睡的人叫不醒，因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人，叫不醒啦！姜署長是三刀流不可多得的人才，我相信你不是叫不醒的人。","署長，你有沒有去逛過夜市？你有後市場抽驗、後市場檢查過嗎？食藥署有預算進行輿情監測，有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫，然後有你們講的，導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫，還有食品大數據智能監控暨風險偵測預警研究，千萬百萬，然後這種東西……你告訴我你們通通沒有在管，然後有這些預算，其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉，在夜市裡面有太多、太多中國違法的零食商品，地方政府都沒有反映上來，你們都無知嗎？所以在這種狀況裡面，電商就算了，大家上網就知道，你知道實體店面，離我們最近的在哪裡，你知道嗎？你知道嗎？離立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品，最近的在哪裡，你知道嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這個要委員提示，附近比較不熟。"],["林委員淑芬：你不知道喔！在樓下。立法院福利社前面都有在賣，店家還說這一批很新鮮，製造日期2025年，你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品？他說飛機、海運、小三通都很方便，更不用說到臺灣以後，夜市、市場或是大家都很好賣，因為臺灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃，所以我們有邊境嗎？邊境有把關嗎？有阻絕於境外嗎？已經長驅直入，而且變笑話，所以在這裡隨便就是數萬包在賣。你們自己驗出來含甜味劑、糖精及環己基代磺醯胺酸鈉，依規定都要退運、依規定都要銷毀，你開了一張罰單，你還讓他繼續賣？你是覺得長輩的肝和腎代謝功能都可以，全臺灣的人都沒有代謝症候群了嗎？這個就是為什麼我們要讓我們的肝和腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢？更不要講這不是單一事件。去年我記得林次長有說蠟瓶糖啦！魔芋爽啦！在你們禁止這個以前，我都還記得我的小孩也拿了一包「紅吱吱」的魔芋爽回來吃，我一看就說這麼恐怖，但他說很好吃。所以這些中國來的、未經查驗的、沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角，早就充斥在全臺灣民眾的生活當中，歷史翻了這麼多頁，新的課題永遠在這裡，署長，政府要承擔起這個責任啊！","署長，「三刀流人才」應該不是立委跟你反映後，你才會想到的，食藥署除了你以外，其他人都是舊的，從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代，再做到賴清德時代，食藥署很多人都是三朝、四朝、五朝元老了啦！他們喔！我不好意思說太難聽啦！署長，你沒有上緊發條，下面的人絕對不會上緊發條，讓國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面，不是一個很厲害的署長就有辦法改變，我現在提醒你要務實一點，讓人民的生活真的從小的到老的、從生活中所有的每一項，讓我們的風險降低一點、少一點，就是最務實的作法。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。委員特別提到風險能夠降低，我們一定會基於這個，希望能夠趨近於零，零風險很困難、不可能，但是我們會儘量來努力。"],["林委員淑芬：剛才下面的人給你念的稿子，什麼爬蟲啦、關鍵字啦，那些都是沒有在做，也沒有效啦！他跟你虛與委蛇，跟你說的，你拿來這裡回答立委，馬上被打槍啊！馬上上網、馬上蝦皮、馬上去點，幾萬包、幾萬包，還在、還在！你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎？完全都一籌莫展嗎？對不對？不要再講那種官腔官調，用官方的標準來回答，不要讓下面的人蒙蔽了你啊！我簡單地就是這麼說。好，我會繼續看喔！我們繼續追喔！謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。"],["主席（邱委員鎮軍代）：謝謝林淑芬委員。現在休息6分鐘。","休息（11時4分）","繼續開會（11時10分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來我們邀請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}}