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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T11:15:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T11:29:39+08:00","duration":853,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160647","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160647","tool":"pyannote","id":"160647-pyannote"},"job_id":"uVADCc4tyRgTmpTR","queued_at":"2025-04-24 12:52:17","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2025-04-24 12:52:17","msg":"downloading 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 851.711, \"end\": 851.832, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"欣\", \"start\": 851.832, \"end\": 851.852, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,830 --> 00:00:03,073\n謝謝主席劉部長吳署長有請委員好\n\n2\n00:00:10,578 --> 00:00:36,306\n好部長辛苦了因為剛剛我是會議主席所以我簡單講一下這個住宅法我們這邊的提案說明這個本次住宅法的修正本席提的兩個法案修正案分數如下第一個是修正第10條第57條之一部分主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化也就是說不管是包租貸款甚至是申請租金補貼因為現在其實大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受這個政府對於居住正義的努力\n\n3\n00:00:37,046 --> 00:01:01,597\n但是你收取補貼的時候我們花了非常多的人民的納稅錢要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已不能只停在福利的層面而是要讓這筆開支效益最大化所以在申請租金補貼的時候其實應該是要有房屋租賃房屋的相關資訊包含地址契約起息日每月租金數額租屋型態租屋面積比例等等這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候政府就已經取得這些資料了\n\n4\n00:01:02,037 --> 00:01:27,240\n那公寓出租人也依租宅法第15條一項規定就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的一些政策優惠所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分的來做揭露透過更大的市場透明去避免租屋黑市才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好或者是租金的補貼也好發揮這個更大的政策作用另外新增第21條之一的部分是講所謂的社宅土地儲備\n\n5\n00:01:28,241 --> 00:01:53,480\n剛剛前面的委員質詢的時候其實也有提到這署長當然擔心民文入法不見得取得但是如果看一下法條的內容大家就會知道就是說這是在強制全部做區段徵收或者是勢力重劃之後取得的所有的配餘地不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售而是要留一定的比例而且作為社會住宅的建築用地使用也許中央沒辦法取得因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府但是地方政府可以取得嘛\n\n6\n00:01:53,780 --> 00:02:14,696\n那只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情我想把它明文入法化我覺得是有其必要的這是提案說明那今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長跟署長討論一下這個一樣啦我們都還是談社會住宅啦因為我看縱觀這麼多委員跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本其實大部分\n\n7\n00:02:15,376 --> 00:02:40,095\n雖然方向若有不同但是大多還是都關切其實社會住宅入住戶的這個資格提這樣子版本的委員是相對多的那麼也非常多關心其實是中遷率的問題包含稍早我們各委員會各委員的詢答其實都有問嘛我們到底供給的數量夠不夠啊等待的時間有多長啊中遷的比率會有多少的影響啊現行的機制顯然有一定的改進之處\n\n8\n00:02:41,158 --> 00:02:54,314\n那我想請問一下署長部長也可以啦如果部長知道的話如果部長不知道署長回答我們現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人排隊等待等待啦就是等待中籤的這一群人\n\n9\n00:02:56,119 --> 00:03:24,572\n根文包的確只有我們的啦那各縣市的都不一致沒關係你中央有的數據我們現在光那個光林口到上一波我印象沒有記錯我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700人700個人在等對然後可能每三四個月只會釋出個位數只會釋出個位數嘛所以就是700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等嘛對對對然後這只是其中一個案例\n\n10\n00:03:25,032 --> 00:03:46,457\n你如果全國各地呢那應該更多啦那應該更多對不對應該而且大部分應該現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都吧北三都嘛當然嘛北漂工作等等確實條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點嘛那這樣子你們從這樣子的數據來看你們覺得現在社宅的缺口還有多少社宅的缺口對\n\n11\n00:03:47,893 --> 00:04:14,142\n你要看到多少戶才不會有等待的問題所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到一個所謂的低標也就是說25萬戶其實25萬戶就是我們認定的社宅存量的最低標那時候可能就會削減掉比較多的這個輪候的這個部分如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員答詢就講說我們達到2.5%之後我們再來做輪候嘛不是就是說那時候輪候的效果\n\n12\n00:04:15,796 --> 00:04:34,996\n就是輪候的效果它的效率會提高啦今天沒有達到那個時候輪候的效率其實是很低的啦但是還是要做吧我覺得因為就是因為缺乏的時候大家對於那種我今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的那種感受才會特別強烈不是嗎可是換另外一個角度就是因為\n\n13\n00:04:35,785 --> 00:04:57,832\n重複登記的就是跨跨點登記的會暴增因為當你的數量不太夠的時候所以大家都會搶嘛其實就是搶對不對所以會看到那個數字會更更膨脹會膨脹得比較厲害你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽薪當然就會出現這樣的狀況所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公廳會嘛很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到就是說你應該是統一登記嘛\n\n14\n00:04:58,904 --> 00:05:20,792\n然後你當然你可以做調整嘛比如說我們上次公聽會其實建議叫做不只是輪候還有積分制嘛也就是說你用不同的身份你有不同的分數嘛你如果集中登記不要在那邊亂槍打鳥你分數可能高一點其實我覺得這些都可以透過平台的技術手段來做解決啦但是我對於署長剛剛去回答其他人講說我要等到低標存量的時候我再來推輪候我個人是非常質疑啦\n\n15\n00:05:23,235 --> 00:05:36,332\n那時候輪候的效果才會出來但是也不表示現在不能推對不對其實現在我們有重複在考慮就一併做了但是會跟大家講說一開始效果不會很好是因為那個數字會被膨脹的很大\n\n16\n00:05:37,253 --> 00:05:57,743\n沒關係你針對不同的樣態我們可以找各個世界各國也許他的實踐的狀況來做交叉的參酌我們也可以討論制度的設計我想這次我們去排住宅法的修正其實就是希望針對這件事情做一下討論因為我是覺得如果要討論現在他討論說我們要放寬多少弱勢戶的比例一般戶的比例你增多\n\n17\n00:05:58,413 --> 00:06:26,140\n加多加少其實你都動輒得咎嘛就我增加了一般戶的比例其實弱勢戶就被壓縮了福利的本質就不見了但你如果把它納入好像又有重複中簽的問題所以它導致很多的問題所以我其實覺得以目前來看這個建立統一的平台處理需求把身份東西重新整理然後把抽籤改成輪候恐怕是比較眼下比較需要的做法署長你同意這樣說嗎對我們其實是用逐步來建立這樣的一個資料平台\n\n18\n00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:43,338\n現在的狀況的確是這樣這個上一次喔這個我們在討論一開始在討論租屋的題目的時候是談租屋市場透明嘛所以你也講你要逐步嘛我這個人一向非常開放就是說我會給你時間去做這個事情那我現在問你啊如果說我們現在討論統一登記平台輪候制的這樣子一個設計請問你的時間表是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:46,452 --> 00:07:12,931\n我們現在就是說剛剛有提到就是說因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪的那所以我們現在的狀況是說我們先把這個所謂的資料欄成豬現在過去成豬的資料欄格我們現在做一個統整也就是說像剛剛委員所提到我們希望你包含你現在租金補貼領售戶的那你現在所需要的這些欄位我們先把它做一個統整讓大家可以去填\n\n20\n00:07:13,351 --> 00:07:32,855\n那同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求都會接接在一起因為這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚也就是我今天不是只有登記我還需要知道你的狀況還有你的這一個所需要的方向所以它有一個資料庫然後有一個平台對不對對對對那具體來講這個資料庫或這個平台什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家的面前\n\n21\n00:07:33,769 --> 00:07:49,831\n我們現在是今年會把整個架構都把它呈現出來先把架構呈現出來然後會現在是目前跟跟這個住都跟跟我們的知福斯都已經在討論那我們這個架構出來以後我們要用什麼樣的方式住都來建呢\n\n22\n00:07:50,311 --> 00:08:16,203\n還是來請知福市來幫忙建那這個部分我們都有在討論當中我們希望這個欄位確認跟各縣市討論如果都確認那我們就先來把這個東西你把推動這樣子的一個計畫的詳細時間表嘛比如說我幾月之前要開完多少會嘛什麼時候我要申出架構什麼時候我要再跟比如說大家學者專家商量等等你總有一個計畫圖嘛對不對你這個會後來提供好不好好因為這個不管是住宅法要不要因為我們要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面\n\n23\n00:08:16,983 --> 00:08:38,115\n跟你的行政措施你會要求要彈性嘛因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法我們是希望一邊做一邊讓他保持有彈性我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據啦今天大家答詢前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常非常的紮實嘛好不好這個也請部長要叮嚀一下好不好把相關你們現在如果不希望修法那你們的政策作為是什麼\n\n24\n00:08:38,795 --> 00:09:08,235\n好相關的資料要做一下提升好第二個我們談輪候制之外其實背後都核心原因啦就是社宅供不應求嘛才不會有這麼多的問題那為什麼會供不應求除了建設的速度當然說原物料上漲啦什麼取得土地不見得容易等等的一些因素之外其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要做一個通盤的考量嘛過去我們針對針對房東有很多的大赦條款這一次的住宅法的修正也有很多講說我們把免稅額度再放寬其實目的是什麼\n\n25\n00:09:09,335 --> 00:09:29,228\n部長你知道目的是什麼嗎?我希望更多的房東來加入好,更多的房東來加入,對不對?其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的嘛,對不對?這是叫做增加供給的概念嘛,對不對?可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好你們覺得有充分釋出嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:32,054 --> 00:09:56,744\n應該這麼說啦因為透過包租代管系統的話其實這樣的成長數字其實是一直在快速擴增當中我不是講包租代管我講的是一般市場我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量的釋出因為我們之前討論租屋市場透明化對不對然後有些人擔心說會定毛為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去其實不外乎就是持有的成本太低了嘛\n\n27\n00:09:57,384 --> 00:10:26,839\n也就是說我現在要不然配合你包租代管或者是我要直接出租等等我要付出的代價我不如乾脆放著如果那個租金不夠高我乾脆給他放著我們現在全部閒置的本來可以出租但不能出租的各式各樣的空屋啊空的房子啊數字你國土署有沒有統計過呃閒置的對大家演講空屋稅囤房稅這種空空在那邊沒有在用的明明可以出租給大家的沒有在出租的數字是多少\n\n28\n00:10:29,326 --> 00:10:31,669\n這個10%的房屋如果充分的釋出到租屋市場會不會降低租金水準\n\n29\n00:10:45,090 --> 00:11:08,662\n會所以我不希望說我們現在討論住宅法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅規範包租貸款等等但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低未來房市的負擔不要太大關鍵還是正常市場那請問內政部部長或者是國土組組長針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場你們有什麼配套措施\n\n30\n00:11:11,908 --> 00:11:32,529\n其實我們在之前一些包租貸款的策略上,其實最早都有希望討論這一些但是後來也經過一些案例,實證大概是這樣因為很多的空屋,尤其所謂的低度用電戶,他其實都在等待著可能類似,因為在等待房地合一睡\n\n31\n00:11:33,649 --> 00:11:52,532\n他也等待防疫了第二個他如果有多汙足他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的我有公益出租人我這一個免稅有多少他更擔心的綜合所得稅的問題綜合所得稅嘛綜合所得稅啊這些也是我們在歷史跟財政部有在討論啦但是財政部他在考慮整個租稅的合理條件的狀況他其實\n\n32\n00:11:53,192 --> 00:12:10,242\n也沒有辦法同意說這個時候又再大的方法之所以有這麼多人持有空第一個是持有成本太低對不對持有成本太低不需要付代價第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大不管是綜合所得稅以及你一旦出租房子你就沒有一生一世的房地合一稅等等的稅率優惠通通不見了所以對房東來講我寧願控制\n\n33\n00:12:11,303 --> 00:12:28,773\n我覺得這件事情雖然他跟財政部要做一個跨部的協調但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵嘛我們的房地產市場租屋市場能不能正常化其實我覺得在這個地方在稅率的部分要做徹底的檢討所以我覺得住宅法是一軌但是財稅的部分是一軌這個我們希望內政部部長這邊我要這個就要拜託你了\n\n34\n00:12:30,514 --> 00:12:54,703\n這雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好但是跨部溝通就是要求在持有成本的增加逼著這些房東把空的房子試出來逼著這些投資客拿出來出租這個我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法因為我們剛剛也講我們要增加社宅的供給你盡量去蓋你取得土地我們都給你相關的政策工具你要降低大家對社宅的需求就是你一般市場的房源要試出來\n\n35\n00:12:55,603 --> 00:13:00,292\n所以這部分我希望有明確的這個進度可以嗎今天複稅署也有代表過來要不要請他來可以\n\n36\n00:13:05,149 --> 00:13:29,736\n跟委員報告我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革從今年開始我們就會加重那個多屋族的這個囤房稅他的稅率會加重但是他如果房東把他的房子試出來出租的話他的房屋稅就可以降低就比照自用住宅嘛對不對是是是這個已經有改革然後今年5月是第一次首次首年上路啦那我們會持續觀望這個實施的成效怎麼樣\n\n37\n00:13:30,556 --> 00:13:40,573\n你覺得剛剛我們這個內政部這邊講這個現在空的房子是10%左右在這樣的制度上路之後有沒有KPI會下降到幾%你們有沒有討論過這個事\n\n38\n00:13:42,694 --> 00:14:08,994\n我們會持續報稅因為今年五月才第一次首年上路沒關係這個題目我們先打開放著但我希望負稅者做一下思考就如果房東的減稅誘因不夠你要大赤條款都可以討論但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來嘛我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求所以很高嘛所以我覺得除了這個社會住宅的討論之外這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了請各政府單位做好準備可以嗎好謝謝\n\n39\n00:14:11,530 --> 00:14:11,852\n好謝謝我們劉欣\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1830\t3073\t謝謝主席 劉部長吳署長有請委員好\n10578\t36306\t好 部長辛苦了因為剛剛我是會議主席所以我簡單講一下這個住宅法我們這邊的提案說明這個本次住宅法的修正本席提的兩個法案修正案分數如下第一個是修正第10條第57條之一部分主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化也就是說不管是包租貸款甚至是申請租金補貼因為現在其實大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受這個政府對於居住正義的努力\n37046\t61597\t但是你收取補貼的時候我們花了非常多的人民的納稅錢要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已不能只停在福利的層面而是要讓這筆開支效益最大化所以在申請租金補貼的時候其實應該是要有房屋租賃房屋的相關資訊包含地址契約起息日每月租金數額租屋型態租屋面積比例等等這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候政府就已經取得這些資料了\n62037\t87240\t那公寓出租人也依租宅法第15條一項規定就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的一些政策優惠所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分的來做揭露透過更大的市場透明去避免租屋黑市才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好或者是租金的補貼也好發揮這個更大的政策作用另外新增第21條之一的部分是講所謂的社宅土地儲備\n88241\t113480\t剛剛前面的委員質詢的時候其實也有提到這署長當然擔心民文入法不見得取得但是如果看一下法條的內容大家就會知道就是說這是在強制全部做區段徵收或者是勢力重劃之後取得的所有的配餘地不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售而是要留一定的比例而且作為社會住宅的建築用地使用也許中央沒辦法取得因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府但是地方政府可以取得嘛\n113780\t134696\t那只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情我想把它明文入法化我覺得是有其必要的這是提案說明那今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長跟署長討論一下這個一樣啦我們都還是談社會住宅啦因為我看縱觀這麼多委員跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本其實大部分\n135376\t160095\t雖然方向若有不同但是大多還是都關切其實社會住宅入住戶的這個資格提這樣子版本的委員是相對多的那麼也非常多關心其實是中遷率的問題包含稍早我們各委員會各委員的詢答其實都有問嘛我們到底供給的數量夠不夠啊等待的時間有多長啊中遷的比率會有多少的影響啊現行的機制顯然有一定的改進之處\n161158\t174314\t那我想請問一下署長部長也可以啦 如果部長知道的話如果部長不知道 署長回答我們現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人排隊等待等待啦 就是等待中籤的這一群人\n176119\t204572\t根文包的確只有我們的啦那各縣市的都不一致沒關係你中央有的數據我們現在光那個光林口到上一波我印象沒有記錯我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700人700個人在等對然後可能每三四個月只會釋出個位數只會釋出個位數嘛所以就是700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等嘛對對對然後這只是其中一個案例\n205032\t226457\t你如果全國各地呢那應該更多啦那應該更多對不對應該而且大部分應該現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都吧北三都嘛當然嘛北漂工作等等確實條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點嘛那這樣子你們從這樣子的數據來看你們覺得現在社宅的缺口還有多少社宅的缺口對\n227893\t254142\t你要看到多少戶才不會有等待的問題所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到一個所謂的低標也就是說25萬戶其實25萬戶就是我們認定的社宅存量的最低標那時候可能就會削減掉比較多的這個輪候的這個部分如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員答詢就講說我們達到2.5%之後我們再來做輪候嘛不是就是說那時候輪候的效果\n255796\t274996\t就是輪候的效果它的效率會提高啦今天沒有達到那個時候輪候的效率其實是很低的啦但是還是要做吧我覺得因為就是因為缺乏的時候大家對於那種我今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的那種感受才會特別強烈不是嗎可是換另外一個角度就是因為\n275785\t297832\t重複登記的就是跨跨點登記的會暴增因為當你的數量不太夠的時候所以大家都會搶嘛其實就是搶對不對所以會看到那個數字會更更膨脹會膨脹得比較厲害你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽薪當然就會出現這樣的狀況所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公廳會嘛很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到就是說你應該是統一登記嘛\n298904\t320792\t然後你當然你可以做調整嘛比如說我們上次公聽會其實建議叫做不只是輪候還有積分制嘛也就是說你用不同的身份你有不同的分數嘛你如果集中登記不要在那邊亂槍打鳥你分數可能高一點其實我覺得這些都可以透過平台的技術手段來做解決啦但是我對於署長剛剛去回答其他人講說我要等到低標存量的時候我再來推輪候我個人是非常質疑啦\n323235\t336332\t那時候輪候的效果才會出來但是也不表示現在不能推對不對其實現在我們有重複在考慮就一併做了但是會跟大家講說一開始效果不會很好是因為那個數字會被膨脹的很大\n337253\t357743\t沒關係你針對不同的樣態我們可以找各個世界各國也許他的實踐的狀況來做交叉的參酌我們也可以討論制度的設計我想這次我們去排住宅法的修正其實就是希望針對這件事情做一下討論因為我是覺得如果要討論現在他討論說我們要放寬多少弱勢戶的比例一般戶的比例你增多\n358413\t386140\t加多加少其實你都動輒得咎嘛就我增加了一般戶的比例其實弱勢戶就被壓縮了福利的本質就不見了但你如果把它納入好像又有重複中簽的問題所以它導致很多的問題所以我其實覺得以目前來看這個建立統一的平台處理需求把身份東西重新整理然後把抽籤改成輪候恐怕是比較眼下比較需要的做法署長你同意這樣說嗎對我們其實是用逐步來建立這樣的一個資料平台\n386920\t403338\t現在的狀況的確是這樣這個上一次喔這個我們在討論一開始在討論租屋的題目的時候是談租屋市場透明嘛所以你也講你要逐步嘛我這個人一向非常開放就是說我會給你時間去做這個事情那我現在問你啊如果說我們現在討論統一登記平台輪候制的這樣子一個設計請問你的時間表是什麼\n406452\t432931\t我們現在就是說剛剛有提到就是說因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪的那所以我們現在的狀況是說我們先把這個所謂的資料欄成豬現在過去成豬的資料欄格我們現在做一個統整也就是說像剛剛委員所提到我們希望你包含你現在租金補貼領售戶的那你現在所需要的這些欄位我們先把它做一個統整讓大家可以去填\n433351\t452855\t那同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求都會接接在一起因為這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚也就是我今天不是只有登記我還需要知道你的狀況還有你的這一個所需要的方向所以它有一個資料庫然後有一個平台對不對對對對那具體來講這個資料庫或這個平台什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家的面前\n453769\t469831\t我們現在是今年會把整個架構都把它呈現出來先把架構呈現出來然後會現在是目前跟跟這個住都跟跟我們的知福斯都已經在討論那我們這個架構出來以後我們要用什麼樣的方式住都來建呢\n470311\t496203\t還是來請知福市來幫忙建那這個部分我們都有在討論當中我們希望這個欄位確認跟各縣市討論如果都確認那我們就先來把這個東西你把推動這樣子的一個計畫的詳細時間表嘛比如說我幾月之前要開完多少會嘛什麼時候我要申出架構什麼時候我要再跟比如說大家學者專家商量等等你總有一個計畫圖嘛對不對你這個會後來提供好不好好因為這個不管是住宅法要不要因為我們要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面\n496983\t518115\t跟你的行政措施你會要求要彈性嘛因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法我們是希望一邊做一邊讓他保持有彈性我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據啦今天大家答詢前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常非常的紮實嘛好不好這個也請部長要叮嚀一下好不好把相關你們現在如果不希望修法那你們的政策作為是什麼\n518795\t548235\t好 相關的資料要做一下提升好 第二個我們談輪候制之外其實背後都核心原因啦就是社宅供不應求嘛才不會有這麼多的問題那為什麼會供不應求除了建設的速度當然說原物料上漲啦什麼取得土地不見得容易等等的一些因素之外其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要做一個通盤的考量嘛過去我們針對針對房東有很多的大赦條款這一次的住宅法的修正也有很多講說我們把免稅額度再放寬其實目的是什麼\n549335\t569228\t部長你知道目的是什麼嗎?我希望更多的房東來加入好,更多的房東來加入,對不對?其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的嘛,對不對?這是叫做增加供給的概念嘛,對不對?可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好你們覺得有充分釋出嗎?\n572054\t596744\t應該這麼說啦因為透過包租代管系統的話其實這樣的成長數字其實是一直在快速擴增當中我不是講包租代管我講的是一般市場我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量的釋出因為我們之前討論租屋市場透明化對不對然後有些人擔心說會定毛為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去其實不外乎就是持有的成本太低了嘛\n597384\t626839\t也就是說我現在要不然配合你包租代管或者是我要直接出租等等我要付出的代價我不如乾脆放著如果那個租金不夠高我乾脆給他放著我們現在全部閒置的本來可以出租但不能出租的各式各樣的空屋啊空的房子啊數字你國土署有沒有統計過呃閒置的對大家演講空屋稅囤房稅這種空空在那邊沒有在用的明明可以出租給大家的沒有在出租的數字是多少\n629326\t631669\t這個10%的房屋如果充分的釋出到租屋市場會不會降低租金水準\n645090\t668662\t會所以我不希望說我們現在討論住宅法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅規範包租貸款等等但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低未來房市的負擔不要太大關鍵還是正常市場那請問內政部部長或者是國土組組長針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場你們有什麼配套措施\n671908\t692529\t其實我們在之前一些包租貸款的策略上,其實最早都有希望討論這一些但是後來也經過一些案例,實證大概是這樣因為很多的空屋,尤其所謂的低度用電戶,他其實都在等待著可能類似,因為在等待房地合一睡\n693649\t712532\t他也等待防疫了第二個他如果有多汙足他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的我有公益出租人我這一個免稅有多少他更擔心的綜合所得稅的問題綜合所得稅嘛綜合所得稅啊這些也是我們在歷史跟財政部有在討論啦但是財政部他在考慮整個租稅的合理條件的狀況他其實\n713192\t730242\t也沒有辦法同意說這個時候又再大的方法之所以有這麼多人持有空第一個是持有成本太低對不對 持有成本太低不需要付代價第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大不管是綜合所得稅以及你一旦出租房子你就沒有一生一世的房地合一稅等等的稅率優惠通通不見了所以對房東來講我寧願控制\n731303\t748773\t我覺得這件事情雖然他跟財政部要做一個跨部的協調但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵嘛我們的房地產市場租屋市場能不能正常化其實我覺得在這個地方在稅率的部分要做徹底的檢討所以我覺得住宅法是一軌但是財稅的部分是一軌這個我們希望內政部部長這邊我要這個就要拜託你了\n750514\t774703\t這雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好但是跨部溝通就是要求在持有成本的增加逼著這些房東把空的房子試出來逼著這些投資客拿出來出租這個我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法因為我們剛剛也講我們要增加社宅的供給你盡量去蓋你取得土地我們都給你相關的政策工具你要降低大家對社宅的需求就是你一般市場的房源要試出來\n775603\t780292\t所以這部分我希望有明確的這個進度可以嗎今天複稅署也有代表過來要不要請他來可以\n785149\t809736\t跟委員報告我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革從今年開始我們就會加重那個多屋族的這個囤房稅他的稅率會加重但是他如果房東把他的房子試出來出租的話他的房屋稅就可以降低就比照自用住宅嘛對不對是是是這個已經有改革然後今年5月是第一次首次首年上路啦那我們會持續觀望這個實施的成效怎麼樣\n810556\t820573\t你覺得剛剛我們這個內政部這邊講這個現在空的房子是10%左右在這樣的制度上路之後有沒有KPI會下降到幾%你們有沒有討論過這個事\n822694\t848994\t我們會持續報稅因為今年五月才第一次首年上路沒關係這個題目我們先打開放著但我希望負稅者做一下思考就如果房東的減稅誘因不夠你要大赤條款都可以討論但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來嘛我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求所以很高嘛所以我覺得除了這個社會住宅的討論之外這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了請各政府單位做好準備可以嗎好謝謝\n851530\t851852\t好 謝謝我們劉欣\n","txt":"謝謝主席 劉部長吳署長有請委員好\n好 部長辛苦了因為剛剛我是會議主席所以我簡單講一下這個住宅法我們這邊的提案說明這個本次住宅法的修正本席提的兩個法案修正案分數如下第一個是修正第10條第57條之一部分主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化也就是說不管是包租貸款甚至是申請租金補貼因為現在其實大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受這個政府對於居住正義的努力\n但是你收取補貼的時候我們花了非常多的人民的納稅錢要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已不能只停在福利的層面而是要讓這筆開支效益最大化所以在申請租金補貼的時候其實應該是要有房屋租賃房屋的相關資訊包含地址契約起息日每月租金數額租屋型態租屋面積比例等等這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候政府就已經取得這些資料了\n那公寓出租人也依租宅法第15條一項規定就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的一些政策優惠所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分的來做揭露透過更大的市場透明去避免租屋黑市才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好或者是租金的補貼也好發揮這個更大的政策作用另外新增第21條之一的部分是講所謂的社宅土地儲備\n剛剛前面的委員質詢的時候其實也有提到這署長當然擔心民文入法不見得取得但是如果看一下法條的內容大家就會知道就是說這是在強制全部做區段徵收或者是勢力重劃之後取得的所有的配餘地不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售而是要留一定的比例而且作為社會住宅的建築用地使用也許中央沒辦法取得因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府但是地方政府可以取得嘛\n那只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情我想把它明文入法化我覺得是有其必要的這是提案說明那今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長跟署長討論一下這個一樣啦我們都還是談社會住宅啦因為我看縱觀這麼多委員跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本其實大部分\n雖然方向若有不同但是大多還是都關切其實社會住宅入住戶的這個資格提這樣子版本的委員是相對多的那麼也非常多關心其實是中遷率的問題包含稍早我們各委員會各委員的詢答其實都有問嘛我們到底供給的數量夠不夠啊等待的時間有多長啊中遷的比率會有多少的影響啊現行的機制顯然有一定的改進之處\n那我想請問一下署長部長也可以啦 如果部長知道的話如果部長不知道 署長回答我們現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人排隊等待等待啦 就是等待中籤的這一群人\n根文包的確只有我們的啦那各縣市的都不一致沒關係你中央有的數據我們現在光那個光林口到上一波我印象沒有記錯我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700人700個人在等對然後可能每三四個月只會釋出個位數只會釋出個位數嘛所以就是700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等嘛對對對然後這只是其中一個案例\n你如果全國各地呢那應該更多啦那應該更多對不對應該而且大部分應該現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都吧北三都嘛當然嘛北漂工作等等確實條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點嘛那這樣子你們從這樣子的數據來看你們覺得現在社宅的缺口還有多少社宅的缺口對\n你要看到多少戶才不會有等待的問題所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到一個所謂的低標也就是說25萬戶其實25萬戶就是我們認定的社宅存量的最低標那時候可能就會削減掉比較多的這個輪候的這個部分如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員答詢就講說我們達到2.5%之後我們再來做輪候嘛不是就是說那時候輪候的效果\n就是輪候的效果它的效率會提高啦今天沒有達到那個時候輪候的效率其實是很低的啦但是還是要做吧我覺得因為就是因為缺乏的時候大家對於那種我今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的那種感受才會特別強烈不是嗎可是換另外一個角度就是因為\n重複登記的就是跨跨點登記的會暴增因為當你的數量不太夠的時候所以大家都會搶嘛其實就是搶對不對所以會看到那個數字會更更膨脹會膨脹得比較厲害你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽薪當然就會出現這樣的狀況所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公廳會嘛很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到就是說你應該是統一登記嘛\n然後你當然你可以做調整嘛比如說我們上次公聽會其實建議叫做不只是輪候還有積分制嘛也就是說你用不同的身份你有不同的分數嘛你如果集中登記不要在那邊亂槍打鳥你分數可能高一點其實我覺得這些都可以透過平台的技術手段來做解決啦但是我對於署長剛剛去回答其他人講說我要等到低標存量的時候我再來推輪候我個人是非常質疑啦\n那時候輪候的效果才會出來但是也不表示現在不能推對不對其實現在我們有重複在考慮就一併做了但是會跟大家講說一開始效果不會很好是因為那個數字會被膨脹的很大\n沒關係你針對不同的樣態我們可以找各個世界各國也許他的實踐的狀況來做交叉的參酌我們也可以討論制度的設計我想這次我們去排住宅法的修正其實就是希望針對這件事情做一下討論因為我是覺得如果要討論現在他討論說我們要放寬多少弱勢戶的比例一般戶的比例你增多\n加多加少其實你都動輒得咎嘛就我增加了一般戶的比例其實弱勢戶就被壓縮了福利的本質就不見了但你如果把它納入好像又有重複中簽的問題所以它導致很多的問題所以我其實覺得以目前來看這個建立統一的平台處理需求把身份東西重新整理然後把抽籤改成輪候恐怕是比較眼下比較需要的做法署長你同意這樣說嗎對我們其實是用逐步來建立這樣的一個資料平台\n現在的狀況的確是這樣這個上一次喔這個我們在討論一開始在討論租屋的題目的時候是談租屋市場透明嘛所以你也講你要逐步嘛我這個人一向非常開放就是說我會給你時間去做這個事情那我現在問你啊如果說我們現在討論統一登記平台輪候制的這樣子一個設計請問你的時間表是什麼\n我們現在就是說剛剛有提到就是說因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪的那所以我們現在的狀況是說我們先把這個所謂的資料欄成豬現在過去成豬的資料欄格我們現在做一個統整也就是說像剛剛委員所提到我們希望你包含你現在租金補貼領售戶的那你現在所需要的這些欄位我們先把它做一個統整讓大家可以去填\n那同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求都會接接在一起因為這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚也就是我今天不是只有登記我還需要知道你的狀況還有你的這一個所需要的方向所以它有一個資料庫然後有一個平台對不對對對對那具體來講這個資料庫或這個平台什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家的面前\n我們現在是今年會把整個架構都把它呈現出來先把架構呈現出來然後會現在是目前跟跟這個住都跟跟我們的知福斯都已經在討論那我們這個架構出來以後我們要用什麼樣的方式住都來建呢\n還是來請知福市來幫忙建那這個部分我們都有在討論當中我們希望這個欄位確認跟各縣市討論如果都確認那我們就先來把這個東西你把推動這樣子的一個計畫的詳細時間表嘛比如說我幾月之前要開完多少會嘛什麼時候我要申出架構什麼時候我要再跟比如說大家學者專家商量等等你總有一個計畫圖嘛對不對你這個會後來提供好不好好因為這個不管是住宅法要不要因為我們要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面\n跟你的行政措施你會要求要彈性嘛因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法我們是希望一邊做一邊讓他保持有彈性我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據啦今天大家答詢前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常非常的紮實嘛好不好這個也請部長要叮嚀一下好不好把相關你們現在如果不希望修法那你們的政策作為是什麼\n好 相關的資料要做一下提升好 第二個我們談輪候制之外其實背後都核心原因啦就是社宅供不應求嘛才不會有這麼多的問題那為什麼會供不應求除了建設的速度當然說原物料上漲啦什麼取得土地不見得容易等等的一些因素之外其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要做一個通盤的考量嘛過去我們針對針對房東有很多的大赦條款這一次的住宅法的修正也有很多講說我們把免稅額度再放寬其實目的是什麼\n部長你知道目的是什麼嗎?我希望更多的房東來加入好,更多的房東來加入,對不對?其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的嘛,對不對?這是叫做增加供給的概念嘛,對不對?可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好你們覺得有充分釋出嗎?\n應該這麼說啦因為透過包租代管系統的話其實這樣的成長數字其實是一直在快速擴增當中我不是講包租代管我講的是一般市場我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量的釋出因為我們之前討論租屋市場透明化對不對然後有些人擔心說會定毛為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去其實不外乎就是持有的成本太低了嘛\n也就是說我現在要不然配合你包租代管或者是我要直接出租等等我要付出的代價我不如乾脆放著如果那個租金不夠高我乾脆給他放著我們現在全部閒置的本來可以出租但不能出租的各式各樣的空屋啊空的房子啊數字你國土署有沒有統計過呃閒置的對大家演講空屋稅囤房稅這種空空在那邊沒有在用的明明可以出租給大家的沒有在出租的數字是多少\n這個10%的房屋如果充分的釋出到租屋市場會不會降低租金水準\n會所以我不希望說我們現在討論住宅法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅規範包租貸款等等但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低未來房市的負擔不要太大關鍵還是正常市場那請問內政部部長或者是國土組組長針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場你們有什麼配套措施\n其實我們在之前一些包租貸款的策略上,其實最早都有希望討論這一些但是後來也經過一些案例,實證大概是這樣因為很多的空屋,尤其所謂的低度用電戶,他其實都在等待著可能類似,因為在等待房地合一睡\n他也等待防疫了第二個他如果有多汙足他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的我有公益出租人我這一個免稅有多少他更擔心的綜合所得稅的問題綜合所得稅嘛綜合所得稅啊這些也是我們在歷史跟財政部有在討論啦但是財政部他在考慮整個租稅的合理條件的狀況他其實\n也沒有辦法同意說這個時候又再大的方法之所以有這麼多人持有空第一個是持有成本太低對不對 持有成本太低不需要付代價第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大不管是綜合所得稅以及你一旦出租房子你就沒有一生一世的房地合一稅等等的稅率優惠通通不見了所以對房東來講我寧願控制\n我覺得這件事情雖然他跟財政部要做一個跨部的協調但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵嘛我們的房地產市場租屋市場能不能正常化其實我覺得在這個地方在稅率的部分要做徹底的檢討所以我覺得住宅法是一軌但是財稅的部分是一軌這個我們希望內政部部長這邊我要這個就要拜託你了\n這雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好但是跨部溝通就是要求在持有成本的增加逼著這些房東把空的房子試出來逼著這些投資客拿出來出租這個我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法因為我們剛剛也講我們要增加社宅的供給你盡量去蓋你取得土地我們都給你相關的政策工具你要降低大家對社宅的需求就是你一般市場的房源要試出來\n所以這部分我希望有明確的這個進度可以嗎今天複稅署也有代表過來要不要請他來可以\n跟委員報告我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革從今年開始我們就會加重那個多屋族的這個囤房稅他的稅率會加重但是他如果房東把他的房子試出來出租的話他的房屋稅就可以降低就比照自用住宅嘛對不對是是是這個已經有改革然後今年5月是第一次首次首年上路啦那我們會持續觀望這個實施的成效怎麼樣\n你覺得剛剛我們這個內政部這邊講這個現在空的房子是10%左右在這樣的制度上路之後有沒有KPI會下降到幾%你們有沒有討論過這個事\n我們會持續報稅因為今年五月才第一次首年上路沒關係這個題目我們先打開放著但我希望負稅者做一下思考就如果房東的減稅誘因不夠你要大赤條款都可以討論但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來嘛我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求所以很高嘛所以我覺得除了這個社會住宅的討論之外這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了請各政府單位做好準備可以嗎好謝謝\n好 謝謝我們劉欣\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.830 --> 00:03.073\n謝謝主席劉部長吳署長有請委員好\n\n00:10.578 --> 00:36.306\n好部長辛苦了因為剛剛我是會議主席所以我簡單講一下這個住宅法我們這邊的提案說明這個本次住宅法的修正本席提的兩個法案修正案分數如下第一個是修正第10條第57條之一部分主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化也就是說不管是包租貸款甚至是申請租金補貼因為現在其實大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受這個政府對於居住正義的努力\n\n00:37.046 --> 01:01.597\n但是你收取補貼的時候我們花了非常多的人民的納稅錢要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已不能只停在福利的層面而是要讓這筆開支效益最大化所以在申請租金補貼的時候其實應該是要有房屋租賃房屋的相關資訊包含地址契約起息日每月租金數額租屋型態租屋面積比例等等這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候政府就已經取得這些資料了\n\n01:02.037 --> 01:27.240\n那公寓出租人也依租宅法第15條一項規定就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的一些政策優惠所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分的來做揭露透過更大的市場透明去避免租屋黑市才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好或者是租金的補貼也好發揮這個更大的政策作用另外新增第21條之一的部分是講所謂的社宅土地儲備\n\n01:28.241 --> 01:53.480\n剛剛前面的委員質詢的時候其實也有提到這署長當然擔心民文入法不見得取得但是如果看一下法條的內容大家就會知道就是說這是在強制全部做區段徵收或者是勢力重劃之後取得的所有的配餘地不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售而是要留一定的比例而且作為社會住宅的建築用地使用也許中央沒辦法取得因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府但是地方政府可以取得嘛\n\n01:53.780 --> 02:14.696\n那只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情我想把它明文入法化我覺得是有其必要的這是提案說明那今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長跟署長討論一下這個一樣啦我們都還是談社會住宅啦因為我看縱觀這麼多委員跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本其實大部分\n\n02:15.376 --> 02:40.095\n雖然方向若有不同但是大多還是都關切其實社會住宅入住戶的這個資格提這樣子版本的委員是相對多的那麼也非常多關心其實是中遷率的問題包含稍早我們各委員會各委員的詢答其實都有問嘛我們到底供給的數量夠不夠啊等待的時間有多長啊中遷的比率會有多少的影響啊現行的機制顯然有一定的改進之處\n\n02:41.158 --> 02:54.314\n那我想請問一下署長部長也可以啦如果部長知道的話如果部長不知道署長回答我們現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人排隊等待等待啦就是等待中籤的這一群人\n\n02:56.119 --> 03:24.572\n根文包的確只有我們的啦那各縣市的都不一致沒關係你中央有的數據我們現在光那個光林口到上一波我印象沒有記錯我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700人700個人在等對然後可能每三四個月只會釋出個位數只會釋出個位數嘛所以就是700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等嘛對對對然後這只是其中一個案例\n\n03:25.032 --> 03:46.457\n你如果全國各地呢那應該更多啦那應該更多對不對應該而且大部分應該現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都吧北三都嘛當然嘛北漂工作等等確實條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點嘛那這樣子你們從這樣子的數據來看你們覺得現在社宅的缺口還有多少社宅的缺口對\n\n03:47.893 --> 04:14.142\n你要看到多少戶才不會有等待的問題所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到一個所謂的低標也就是說25萬戶其實25萬戶就是我們認定的社宅存量的最低標那時候可能就會削減掉比較多的這個輪候的這個部分如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員答詢就講說我們達到2.5%之後我們再來做輪候嘛不是就是說那時候輪候的效果\n\n04:15.796 --> 04:34.996\n就是輪候的效果它的效率會提高啦今天沒有達到那個時候輪候的效率其實是很低的啦但是還是要做吧我覺得因為就是因為缺乏的時候大家對於那種我今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的那種感受才會特別強烈不是嗎可是換另外一個角度就是因為\n\n04:35.785 --> 04:57.832\n重複登記的就是跨跨點登記的會暴增因為當你的數量不太夠的時候所以大家都會搶嘛其實就是搶對不對所以會看到那個數字會更更膨脹會膨脹得比較厲害你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽薪當然就會出現這樣的狀況所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公廳會嘛很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到就是說你應該是統一登記嘛\n\n04:58.904 --> 05:20.792\n然後你當然你可以做調整嘛比如說我們上次公聽會其實建議叫做不只是輪候還有積分制嘛也就是說你用不同的身份你有不同的分數嘛你如果集中登記不要在那邊亂槍打鳥你分數可能高一點其實我覺得這些都可以透過平台的技術手段來做解決啦但是我對於署長剛剛去回答其他人講說我要等到低標存量的時候我再來推輪候我個人是非常質疑啦\n\n05:23.235 --> 05:36.332\n那時候輪候的效果才會出來但是也不表示現在不能推對不對其實現在我們有重複在考慮就一併做了但是會跟大家講說一開始效果不會很好是因為那個數字會被膨脹的很大\n\n05:37.253 --> 05:57.743\n沒關係你針對不同的樣態我們可以找各個世界各國也許他的實踐的狀況來做交叉的參酌我們也可以討論制度的設計我想這次我們去排住宅法的修正其實就是希望針對這件事情做一下討論因為我是覺得如果要討論現在他討論說我們要放寬多少弱勢戶的比例一般戶的比例你增多\n\n05:58.413 --> 06:26.140\n加多加少其實你都動輒得咎嘛就我增加了一般戶的比例其實弱勢戶就被壓縮了福利的本質就不見了但你如果把它納入好像又有重複中簽的問題所以它導致很多的問題所以我其實覺得以目前來看這個建立統一的平台處理需求把身份東西重新整理然後把抽籤改成輪候恐怕是比較眼下比較需要的做法署長你同意這樣說嗎對我們其實是用逐步來建立這樣的一個資料平台\n\n06:26.920 --> 06:43.338\n現在的狀況的確是這樣這個上一次喔這個我們在討論一開始在討論租屋的題目的時候是談租屋市場透明嘛所以你也講你要逐步嘛我這個人一向非常開放就是說我會給你時間去做這個事情那我現在問你啊如果說我們現在討論統一登記平台輪候制的這樣子一個設計請問你的時間表是什麼\n\n06:46.452 --> 07:12.931\n我們現在就是說剛剛有提到就是說因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪的那所以我們現在的狀況是說我們先把這個所謂的資料欄成豬現在過去成豬的資料欄格我們現在做一個統整也就是說像剛剛委員所提到我們希望你包含你現在租金補貼領售戶的那你現在所需要的這些欄位我們先把它做一個統整讓大家可以去填\n\n07:13.351 --> 07:32.855\n那同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求都會接接在一起因為這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚也就是我今天不是只有登記我還需要知道你的狀況還有你的這一個所需要的方向所以它有一個資料庫然後有一個平台對不對對對對那具體來講這個資料庫或這個平台什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家的面前\n\n07:33.769 --> 07:49.831\n我們現在是今年會把整個架構都把它呈現出來先把架構呈現出來然後會現在是目前跟跟這個住都跟跟我們的知福斯都已經在討論那我們這個架構出來以後我們要用什麼樣的方式住都來建呢\n\n07:50.311 --> 08:16.203\n還是來請知福市來幫忙建那這個部分我們都有在討論當中我們希望這個欄位確認跟各縣市討論如果都確認那我們就先來把這個東西你把推動這樣子的一個計畫的詳細時間表嘛比如說我幾月之前要開完多少會嘛什麼時候我要申出架構什麼時候我要再跟比如說大家學者專家商量等等你總有一個計畫圖嘛對不對你這個會後來提供好不好好因為這個不管是住宅法要不要因為我們要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面\n\n08:16.983 --> 08:38.115\n跟你的行政措施你會要求要彈性嘛因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法我們是希望一邊做一邊讓他保持有彈性我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據啦今天大家答詢前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常非常的紮實嘛好不好這個也請部長要叮嚀一下好不好把相關你們現在如果不希望修法那你們的政策作為是什麼\n\n08:38.795 --> 09:08.235\n好相關的資料要做一下提升好第二個我們談輪候制之外其實背後都核心原因啦就是社宅供不應求嘛才不會有這麼多的問題那為什麼會供不應求除了建設的速度當然說原物料上漲啦什麼取得土地不見得容易等等的一些因素之外其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要做一個通盤的考量嘛過去我們針對針對房東有很多的大赦條款這一次的住宅法的修正也有很多講說我們把免稅額度再放寬其實目的是什麼\n\n09:09.335 --> 09:29.228\n部長你知道目的是什麼嗎?我希望更多的房東來加入好,更多的房東來加入,對不對?其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的嘛,對不對?這是叫做增加供給的概念嘛,對不對?可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好你們覺得有充分釋出嗎?\n\n09:32.054 --> 09:56.744\n應該這麼說啦因為透過包租代管系統的話其實這樣的成長數字其實是一直在快速擴增當中我不是講包租代管我講的是一般市場我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量的釋出因為我們之前討論租屋市場透明化對不對然後有些人擔心說會定毛為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去其實不外乎就是持有的成本太低了嘛\n\n09:57.384 --> 10:26.839\n也就是說我現在要不然配合你包租代管或者是我要直接出租等等我要付出的代價我不如乾脆放著如果那個租金不夠高我乾脆給他放著我們現在全部閒置的本來可以出租但不能出租的各式各樣的空屋啊空的房子啊數字你國土署有沒有統計過呃閒置的對大家演講空屋稅囤房稅這種空空在那邊沒有在用的明明可以出租給大家的沒有在出租的數字是多少\n\n10:29.326 --> 10:31.669\n這個10%的房屋如果充分的釋出到租屋市場會不會降低租金水準\n\n10:45.090 --> 11:08.662\n會所以我不希望說我們現在討論住宅法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅規範包租貸款等等但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低未來房市的負擔不要太大關鍵還是正常市場那請問內政部部長或者是國土組組長針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場你們有什麼配套措施\n\n11:11.908 --> 11:32.529\n其實我們在之前一些包租貸款的策略上,其實最早都有希望討論這一些但是後來也經過一些案例,實證大概是這樣因為很多的空屋,尤其所謂的低度用電戶,他其實都在等待著可能類似,因為在等待房地合一睡\n\n11:33.649 --> 11:52.532\n他也等待防疫了第二個他如果有多汙足他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的我有公益出租人我這一個免稅有多少他更擔心的綜合所得稅的問題綜合所得稅嘛綜合所得稅啊這些也是我們在歷史跟財政部有在討論啦但是財政部他在考慮整個租稅的合理條件的狀況他其實\n\n11:53.192 --> 12:10.242\n也沒有辦法同意說這個時候又再大的方法之所以有這麼多人持有空第一個是持有成本太低對不對持有成本太低不需要付代價第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大不管是綜合所得稅以及你一旦出租房子你就沒有一生一世的房地合一稅等等的稅率優惠通通不見了所以對房東來講我寧願控制\n\n12:11.303 --> 12:28.773\n我覺得這件事情雖然他跟財政部要做一個跨部的協調但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵嘛我們的房地產市場租屋市場能不能正常化其實我覺得在這個地方在稅率的部分要做徹底的檢討所以我覺得住宅法是一軌但是財稅的部分是一軌這個我們希望內政部部長這邊我要這個就要拜託你了\n\n12:30.514 --> 12:54.703\n這雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好但是跨部溝通就是要求在持有成本的增加逼著這些房東把空的房子試出來逼著這些投資客拿出來出租這個我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法因為我們剛剛也講我們要增加社宅的供給你盡量去蓋你取得土地我們都給你相關的政策工具你要降低大家對社宅的需求就是你一般市場的房源要試出來\n\n12:55.603 --> 13:00.292\n所以這部分我希望有明確的這個進度可以嗎今天複稅署也有代表過來要不要請他來可以\n\n13:05.149 --> 13:29.736\n跟委員報告我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革從今年開始我們就會加重那個多屋族的這個囤房稅他的稅率會加重但是他如果房東把他的房子試出來出租的話他的房屋稅就可以降低就比照自用住宅嘛對不對是是是這個已經有改革然後今年5月是第一次首次首年上路啦那我們會持續觀望這個實施的成效怎麼樣\n\n13:30.556 --> 13:40.573\n你覺得剛剛我們這個內政部這邊講這個現在空的房子是10%左右在這樣的制度上路之後有沒有KPI會下降到幾%你們有沒有討論過這個事\n\n13:42.694 --> 14:08.994\n我們會持續報稅因為今年五月才第一次首年上路沒關係這個題目我們先打開放著但我希望負稅者做一下思考就如果房東的減稅誘因不夠你要大赤條款都可以討論但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來嘛我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求所以很高嘛所以我覺得除了這個社會住宅的討論之外這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了請各政府單位做好準備可以嗎好謝謝\n\n14:11.530 --> 14:11.852\n好謝謝我們劉欣\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.83,"end":3.073,"text":"謝謝主席 劉部長吳署長有請委員好"},{"start":10.578,"end":36.306,"text":"好 部長辛苦了因為剛剛我是會議主席所以我簡單講一下這個住宅法我們這邊的提案說明這個本次住宅法的修正本席提的兩個法案修正案分數如下第一個是修正第10條第57條之一部分主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化也就是說不管是包租貸款甚至是申請租金補貼因為現在其實大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受這個政府對於居住正義的努力"},{"start":37.046,"end":61.597,"text":"但是你收取補貼的時候我們花了非常多的人民的納稅錢要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已不能只停在福利的層面而是要讓這筆開支效益最大化所以在申請租金補貼的時候其實應該是要有房屋租賃房屋的相關資訊包含地址契約起息日每月租金數額租屋型態租屋面積比例等等這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候政府就已經取得這些資料了"},{"start":62.037,"end":87.24,"text":"那公寓出租人也依租宅法第15條一項規定就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的一些政策優惠所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分的來做揭露透過更大的市場透明去避免租屋黑市才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好或者是租金的補貼也好發揮這個更大的政策作用另外新增第21條之一的部分是講所謂的社宅土地儲備"},{"start":88.241,"end":113.48,"text":"剛剛前面的委員質詢的時候其實也有提到這署長當然擔心民文入法不見得取得但是如果看一下法條的內容大家就會知道就是說這是在強制全部做區段徵收或者是勢力重劃之後取得的所有的配餘地不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售而是要留一定的比例而且作為社會住宅的建築用地使用也許中央沒辦法取得因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府但是地方政府可以取得嘛"},{"start":113.78,"end":134.696,"text":"那只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情我想把它明文入法化我覺得是有其必要的這是提案說明那今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長跟署長討論一下這個一樣啦我們都還是談社會住宅啦因為我看縱觀這麼多委員跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本其實大部分"},{"start":135.376,"end":160.095,"text":"雖然方向若有不同但是大多還是都關切其實社會住宅入住戶的這個資格提這樣子版本的委員是相對多的那麼也非常多關心其實是中遷率的問題包含稍早我們各委員會各委員的詢答其實都有問嘛我們到底供給的數量夠不夠啊等待的時間有多長啊中遷的比率會有多少的影響啊現行的機制顯然有一定的改進之處"},{"start":161.158,"end":174.314,"text":"那我想請問一下署長部長也可以啦 如果部長知道的話如果部長不知道 署長回答我們現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人排隊等待等待啦 就是等待中籤的這一群人"},{"start":176.119,"end":204.572,"text":"根文包的確只有我們的啦那各縣市的都不一致沒關係你中央有的數據我們現在光那個光林口到上一波我印象沒有記錯我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700人700個人在等對然後可能每三四個月只會釋出個位數只會釋出個位數嘛所以就是700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等嘛對對對然後這只是其中一個案例"},{"start":205.032,"end":226.457,"text":"你如果全國各地呢那應該更多啦那應該更多對不對應該而且大部分應該現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都吧北三都嘛當然嘛北漂工作等等確實條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點嘛那這樣子你們從這樣子的數據來看你們覺得現在社宅的缺口還有多少社宅的缺口對"},{"start":227.893,"end":254.142,"text":"你要看到多少戶才不會有等待的問題所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到一個所謂的低標也就是說25萬戶其實25萬戶就是我們認定的社宅存量的最低標那時候可能就會削減掉比較多的這個輪候的這個部分如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員答詢就講說我們達到2.5%之後我們再來做輪候嘛不是就是說那時候輪候的效果"},{"start":255.796,"end":274.996,"text":"就是輪候的效果它的效率會提高啦今天沒有達到那個時候輪候的效率其實是很低的啦但是還是要做吧我覺得因為就是因為缺乏的時候大家對於那種我今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的那種感受才會特別強烈不是嗎可是換另外一個角度就是因為"},{"start":275.785,"end":297.832,"text":"重複登記的就是跨跨點登記的會暴增因為當你的數量不太夠的時候所以大家都會搶嘛其實就是搶對不對所以會看到那個數字會更更膨脹會膨脹得比較厲害你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽薪當然就會出現這樣的狀況所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公廳會嘛很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到就是說你應該是統一登記嘛"},{"start":298.904,"end":320.792,"text":"然後你當然你可以做調整嘛比如說我們上次公聽會其實建議叫做不只是輪候還有積分制嘛也就是說你用不同的身份你有不同的分數嘛你如果集中登記不要在那邊亂槍打鳥你分數可能高一點其實我覺得這些都可以透過平台的技術手段來做解決啦但是我對於署長剛剛去回答其他人講說我要等到低標存量的時候我再來推輪候我個人是非常質疑啦"},{"start":323.235,"end":336.332,"text":"那時候輪候的效果才會出來但是也不表示現在不能推對不對其實現在我們有重複在考慮就一併做了但是會跟大家講說一開始效果不會很好是因為那個數字會被膨脹的很大"},{"start":337.253,"end":357.743,"text":"沒關係你針對不同的樣態我們可以找各個世界各國也許他的實踐的狀況來做交叉的參酌我們也可以討論制度的設計我想這次我們去排住宅法的修正其實就是希望針對這件事情做一下討論因為我是覺得如果要討論現在他討論說我們要放寬多少弱勢戶的比例一般戶的比例你增多"},{"start":358.413,"end":386.14,"text":"加多加少其實你都動輒得咎嘛就我增加了一般戶的比例其實弱勢戶就被壓縮了福利的本質就不見了但你如果把它納入好像又有重複中簽的問題所以它導致很多的問題所以我其實覺得以目前來看這個建立統一的平台處理需求把身份東西重新整理然後把抽籤改成輪候恐怕是比較眼下比較需要的做法署長你同意這樣說嗎對我們其實是用逐步來建立這樣的一個資料平台"},{"start":386.92,"end":403.338,"text":"現在的狀況的確是這樣這個上一次喔這個我們在討論一開始在討論租屋的題目的時候是談租屋市場透明嘛所以你也講你要逐步嘛我這個人一向非常開放就是說我會給你時間去做這個事情那我現在問你啊如果說我們現在討論統一登記平台輪候制的這樣子一個設計請問你的時間表是什麼"},{"start":406.452,"end":432.931,"text":"我們現在就是說剛剛有提到就是說因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪的那所以我們現在的狀況是說我們先把這個所謂的資料欄成豬現在過去成豬的資料欄格我們現在做一個統整也就是說像剛剛委員所提到我們希望你包含你現在租金補貼領售戶的那你現在所需要的這些欄位我們先把它做一個統整讓大家可以去填"},{"start":433.351,"end":452.855,"text":"那同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求都會接接在一起因為這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚也就是我今天不是只有登記我還需要知道你的狀況還有你的這一個所需要的方向所以它有一個資料庫然後有一個平台對不對對對對那具體來講這個資料庫或這個平台什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家的面前"},{"start":453.769,"end":469.831,"text":"我們現在是今年會把整個架構都把它呈現出來先把架構呈現出來然後會現在是目前跟跟這個住都跟跟我們的知福斯都已經在討論那我們這個架構出來以後我們要用什麼樣的方式住都來建呢"},{"start":470.311,"end":496.203,"text":"還是來請知福市來幫忙建那這個部分我們都有在討論當中我們希望這個欄位確認跟各縣市討論如果都確認那我們就先來把這個東西你把推動這樣子的一個計畫的詳細時間表嘛比如說我幾月之前要開完多少會嘛什麼時候我要申出架構什麼時候我要再跟比如說大家學者專家商量等等你總有一個計畫圖嘛對不對你這個會後來提供好不好好因為這個不管是住宅法要不要因為我們要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面"},{"start":496.983,"end":518.115,"text":"跟你的行政措施你會要求要彈性嘛因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法我們是希望一邊做一邊讓他保持有彈性我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據啦今天大家答詢前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常非常的紮實嘛好不好這個也請部長要叮嚀一下好不好把相關你們現在如果不希望修法那你們的政策作為是什麼"},{"start":518.795,"end":548.235,"text":"好 相關的資料要做一下提升好 第二個我們談輪候制之外其實背後都核心原因啦就是社宅供不應求嘛才不會有這麼多的問題那為什麼會供不應求除了建設的速度當然說原物料上漲啦什麼取得土地不見得容易等等的一些因素之外其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要做一個通盤的考量嘛過去我們針對針對房東有很多的大赦條款這一次的住宅法的修正也有很多講說我們把免稅額度再放寬其實目的是什麼"},{"start":549.335,"end":569.228,"text":"部長你知道目的是什麼嗎?我希望更多的房東來加入好,更多的房東來加入,對不對?其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的嘛,對不對?這是叫做增加供給的概念嘛,對不對?可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好你們覺得有充分釋出嗎?"},{"start":572.054,"end":596.744,"text":"應該這麼說啦因為透過包租代管系統的話其實這樣的成長數字其實是一直在快速擴增當中我不是講包租代管我講的是一般市場我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量的釋出因為我們之前討論租屋市場透明化對不對然後有些人擔心說會定毛為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去其實不外乎就是持有的成本太低了嘛"},{"start":597.384,"end":626.839,"text":"也就是說我現在要不然配合你包租代管或者是我要直接出租等等我要付出的代價我不如乾脆放著如果那個租金不夠高我乾脆給他放著我們現在全部閒置的本來可以出租但不能出租的各式各樣的空屋啊空的房子啊數字你國土署有沒有統計過呃閒置的對大家演講空屋稅囤房稅這種空空在那邊沒有在用的明明可以出租給大家的沒有在出租的數字是多少"},{"start":629.326,"end":631.669,"text":"這個10%的房屋如果充分的釋出到租屋市場會不會降低租金水準"},{"start":645.09,"end":668.662,"text":"會所以我不希望說我們現在討論住宅法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅規範包租貸款等等但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低未來房市的負擔不要太大關鍵還是正常市場那請問內政部部長或者是國土組組長針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場你們有什麼配套措施"},{"start":671.908,"end":692.529,"text":"其實我們在之前一些包租貸款的策略上,其實最早都有希望討論這一些但是後來也經過一些案例,實證大概是這樣因為很多的空屋,尤其所謂的低度用電戶,他其實都在等待著可能類似,因為在等待房地合一睡"},{"start":693.649,"end":712.532,"text":"他也等待防疫了第二個他如果有多汙足他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的我有公益出租人我這一個免稅有多少他更擔心的綜合所得稅的問題綜合所得稅嘛綜合所得稅啊這些也是我們在歷史跟財政部有在討論啦但是財政部他在考慮整個租稅的合理條件的狀況他其實"},{"start":713.192,"end":730.242,"text":"也沒有辦法同意說這個時候又再大的方法之所以有這麼多人持有空第一個是持有成本太低對不對 持有成本太低不需要付代價第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大不管是綜合所得稅以及你一旦出租房子你就沒有一生一世的房地合一稅等等的稅率優惠通通不見了所以對房東來講我寧願控制"},{"start":731.303,"end":748.773,"text":"我覺得這件事情雖然他跟財政部要做一個跨部的協調但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵嘛我們的房地產市場租屋市場能不能正常化其實我覺得在這個地方在稅率的部分要做徹底的檢討所以我覺得住宅法是一軌但是財稅的部分是一軌這個我們希望內政部部長這邊我要這個就要拜託你了"},{"start":750.514,"end":774.703,"text":"這雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好但是跨部溝通就是要求在持有成本的增加逼著這些房東把空的房子試出來逼著這些投資客拿出來出租這個我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法因為我們剛剛也講我們要增加社宅的供給你盡量去蓋你取得土地我們都給你相關的政策工具你要降低大家對社宅的需求就是你一般市場的房源要試出來"},{"start":775.603,"end":780.292,"text":"所以這部分我希望有明確的這個進度可以嗎今天複稅署也有代表過來要不要請他來可以"},{"start":785.149,"end":809.736,"text":"跟委員報告我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革從今年開始我們就會加重那個多屋族的這個囤房稅他的稅率會加重但是他如果房東把他的房子試出來出租的話他的房屋稅就可以降低就比照自用住宅嘛對不對是是是這個已經有改革然後今年5月是第一次首次首年上路啦那我們會持續觀望這個實施的成效怎麼樣"},{"start":810.556,"end":820.573,"text":"你覺得剛剛我們這個內政部這邊講這個現在空的房子是10%左右在這樣的制度上路之後有沒有KPI會下降到幾%你們有沒有討論過這個事"},{"start":822.694,"end":848.994,"text":"我們會持續報稅因為今年五月才第一次首年上路沒關係這個題目我們先打開放著但我希望負稅者做一下思考就如果房東的減稅誘因不夠你要大赤條款都可以討論但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來嘛我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求所以很高嘛所以我覺得除了這個社會住宅的討論之外這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了請各政府單位做好準備可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":851.53,"end":851.852,"text":"好 謝謝我們劉欣"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時15分）謝謝主席。有請劉部長、吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長辛苦了。因為剛剛我是會議主席，所以我簡單講一下住宅法的提案說明。本次住宅法的修正，本席提了兩個修正案，分述如下：第一個是修正第十條、第五十七條之一，主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化，也就是不管是包租代管，甚至申請租金補貼，因為現在大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受政府對於居住正義的努力。但是補貼的時候花了非常多人民的納稅錢，要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已，不能只有停在福利的層面，而是要讓這一筆開支效益最大化，所以在申請租金補貼的時候，其實應該要有租賃房屋的相關資訊，包含地址、契約起迄日、每月租金數額、租屋型態、租屋面積比例等等。這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候，政府就已經取得這些資料了。公益出租人也依住宅法第十五條第一項規定，就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的政策優惠，所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分揭露，透過更大的市場透明避免租屋黑市，才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好，或者是租金的補貼也好，發揮更大的政策綜效。","另外，新增第二十一條之一是所謂的社宅土地儲備，剛剛前面委員質詢的時候其實也有提到，署長很擔心明文入法不見得取得，如果看一下法條內容大家就知道，這是在強制做區段徵收或者是市地重劃之後取得的所有配餘地，不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售，而是要留一定的比例作為社會住宅的建築用地使用。也許中央沒辦法取得，因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府，但是地方政府可以取得，只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情，我想把它明文入法化有其必要。這是提案說明。","今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長、署長討論一下，一樣都還是談社會住宅，因為綜觀這麼多委員、跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本，大部分雖然方向若有不同，但大多還是都關切社會住宅入住戶的資格，提這樣版本的委員是相對多的。那麼也有非常多關心中籤率的問題，包含稍早各委員的詢答其實都有問，到底供給的數量夠不夠、等待的時間有多長、中籤的比率會有多少影響，現行機制顯然有一定的改進之處。我想請問一下署長，部長也可以，如果部長知道的話；如果部長不知道，請署長回答，現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人？就是等待中籤的這群人。"],["吳署長欣修：的確，我們只有我們的，各縣市的都不一致。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，就中央有的數據。"],["吳署長欣修：我們現在光是林口到上一波，我印象沒有記錯，我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700。"],["牛委員煦庭：700個人在等？"],["吳署長欣修：對，可能每三、四個月只會釋出個位數。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以就是700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這只是其中一個案例，如果全國各地呢？"],["吳署長欣修：那應該更多。"],["牛委員煦庭：那應該更多，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：而且現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然北漂工作等等，區位條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：從這樣的數據來看，你們覺得現在社宅缺口還有多少？"],["吳署長欣修：社宅的缺口？"],["牛委員煦庭：對。你要蓋到多少戶，才不會有等待的問題？"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到所謂的低標，也就是25萬戶，其實25萬戶就是我們認定的社宅存量最低標，那時候可能就會削減掉比較多輪候的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員的答詢，達到2.5%之後再來輪候。"],["吳署長欣修：不是！那時候輪候的效率會提高，沒有達到那個時候，輪候的效率其實是很低的。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我覺得還是要做吧？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是因為缺乏的時候，大家對於今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的感受才會特別強烈，不是嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：可是換另外一個角度，重複登記的，就是跨點登記的會暴增，當數量不太夠的時候，他更會搶……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以大家都會搶嘛！其實就是搶，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：所以會看到數字更膨脹，會膨脹得比較厲害。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽籤，當然就會出現這樣的狀況，所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公聽會，很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到，應該是統一登記，當然也可以調整，比如說上次公聽會其實是建議不只輪候，還有積分制，也就是說用不同的身分有不同的分數，如果集中登記，不要亂槍打鳥，分數可能高一點，其實我覺得這些都可以透過平臺的技術、手段解決啦！但是我對於署長剛剛回答其他人說，要等到低標存量的時候再來推輪候，我個人是非常質疑，因為我覺得越缺的時候越需要輪候，才會公平啊！"],["吳署長欣修：我剛剛不是……我是說那時候的輪候效果才會出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是也不表示現在不能推，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，其實現在我們考慮一併做，但是會跟大家講一開始效果不會很好，因為那個數字會被膨脹得很大。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，針對不同的樣態，我們可以找世界各國實踐的狀況交叉參酌，我們也可以討論制度的設計，我想這次我們排住宅法的修正，其實就是希望針對這些事情做一下討論。我是覺得如果要討論，現在討論要放寬多少弱勢戶、一般戶的比例，你加多、加少其實都動輒得咎嘛！增加了一般戶的比例，弱勢戶就被壓縮了，福利的本質就不見了，但是如果把他納入，好像又有重複中籤的問題，導致很多問題，所以我覺得以目前來看，建立統一平臺處理需求，把身分重新整理，然後把抽籤改成輪候，恐怕是眼下比較需要的作法。署長，你同意這樣說嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們其實是逐步建立這樣的資料平臺，現在的狀況的確是這樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：上一次我們一開始在討論租屋題目的時候是談租屋市場透明，你也講要逐步，我這個人一向非常開放，我會給你時間去做這個事情。我現在問你，如果我們現在討論統一登記平臺輪候制這樣的設計，請問你的時間表是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：我們剛剛有提到，就是因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪了，所以現在的狀況是，我們先把過去承租的資料欄格統整，也就是像剛剛委員所提到，我們希望包含租金補貼領受戶，現在所需要的這些欄位先統整，讓大家可以填，同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求介接在一起，這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚，也就是今天不是只有登記，我還需要知道你的狀況還有所需要的房型。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以要有一個資料庫，然後有一個平臺，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：具體來講，這個資料庫或平臺什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家面前？"],["吳署長欣修：我們今年會把整個架構呈現出來，先把架構呈現出來，目前跟住都、資服司都已經在討論，這個架構出來以後要用什麼樣的方式，是住都來建還是請資服司幫忙建等部分我們都有在討論當中，我們希望欄位跟各縣市討論如果都確認，就先把這個建起來。"],["牛委員煦庭：你推動計畫的詳細時間表，比如說幾月之前要開完多少會、什麼時候要生出架構、什麼時候要再跟比如說學者專家商量等等，你總有一個計畫圖，會後提供好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你知道不管是住宅法，我們要不要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面，跟你的行政措施會要求要彈性嘛！因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們是希望一邊做，一邊讓它保有彈性，這樣會比較好一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據，今天大家答詢，前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常、非常地紮實嘛！這個也請部長要叮嚀一下，好不好？你們現在如果不希望修法，那你們的政策作為是什麼？相關的資料再做一下提升。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，我們談輪候制之外，其實背後都有核心原因就是社宅供不應求，才會有這麼多的問題，為什麼會供不應求？當然除了建設速度受到原物料上漲、取得土地不見得容易等等一些因素之外，其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要通盤考量，過去我們針對房東有很多大赦條款，這次住宅法的修正也有很多人說把免稅額度再放寬，其實目的是什麼？部長，你知道目的是什麼嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：就是希望更多的房東加入。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，更多的房東加入，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的，這叫作增加供給的概念，可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好，你們覺得有充分釋出嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，透過包租代管系統的話，這樣的成長數字其實一直在快速擴增當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：我不是講包租代管，我講的是一般市場，我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題，就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量釋出？我們之前討論租屋市場透明化，然後有些人擔心會定錨，為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去？其實不外乎就是持有成本太低了，也就是說現在不管是要配合包租代管或者是要直接出租等等，我要付出代價不如乾脆放著，如果租金不夠高，我乾脆放著。現在全部閒置本來可以出租但不能出租等各式各樣的空屋數字，國土署有沒有統計過？"],["吳署長欣修：閒置的？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，大家以前講空屋稅、囤房稅，這種空在那邊沒有在用，明明可以出租給大家卻沒有出租的數字是多少？"],["林代理司長家正：低度用電的部分，我們統計處有調查，現在大概是住宅存量的10%，大概一成左右，數量我可能要確定一下，因為我們沒有特別背起來。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個10%的房屋如果充分釋出到租屋市場，會不會降低租金水準？"],["吳署長欣修：會。"],["牛委員煦庭：會嘛！所以我不希望我們現在討論住宅法，法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅、包租代管等等，但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低，未來房市的負擔不要太大，關鍵還是正常市場。請問內政部部長或者是國土署署長，針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場，你們有沒有什麼配套措施？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們在之前一些包租代管的策略上，最早都希望討論這一些。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！"],["吳署長欣修：但是後來也經過一些案例實證大概是這樣，很多空屋，尤其所謂的低度用電戶，他其實可能因為在等待房地合一稅。第二個，如果是多屋族，他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的公益出租人免稅額多少，他更擔心綜合所得稅的問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，是他一生一次的……綜合所得稅嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：這些我們歷次都有跟財政部討論，但是財政部考慮整個租稅的合理條件，他其實也沒有辦法同意這個時候再大幅放寬。"],["牛委員煦庭：之所以有這麼多人持有空屋，第一個是持有成本太低，不需要付代價。第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大，不管是綜合所得稅，以及一旦出租房子就沒有一生一次的房地合一稅等等的，一些稅率優惠通通不見了，所以對房東來講，他寧願空著。這件事情雖然要跟財政部跨部協調，但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵，我們的房地產市場、租屋市場能不能正常化，其實我覺得在這個地方、在稅率的部分要澈底檢討。所以住宅法是一軌，但是財稅的部分是一軌，我們希望內政部部長努力，這個就要拜託你了。雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好，但是跨部溝通，就是要求持有成本增加，逼著這些房東把空的房子釋出來，逼著這些投資客拿出來出租，我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法。因為我們剛剛也講，我們要增加社宅的供給，你儘量去蓋、你取得土地，我們都給你相關的政策工具，要降低大家對社宅的需求就是一般市場的租屋房源要釋出來。這一部分我希望有明確的進度，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：今天賦稅署也有代表過來，要不要請他回應一下？"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革，從今年開始，我們就會加重多屋族的囤房稅，其稅率會加重，但是如果房東把他的房子釋出來出租的話，他的房屋稅就可以降低。"],["牛委員煦庭：就比照自用住宅嘛！對不對？"],["倪副署長麗心：是，這個已經有改了，今年5月是第一次首年上路，我們會持續觀望實施的成效如何。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得剛剛內政部講現在空的房子是10%左右，在這樣的制度上路之後，有沒有KPI？會下降到多少百分比？你們有沒有討論過這事？"],["倪副署長麗心：我們會持續……報稅因為今年5月才第一次首年上路。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，這個題目我們先打開放著，但是我希望賦稅署做一下思考，如果房東的減稅誘因不夠，你要有大赦條款都可以討論，但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來，我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊，然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求，所以很高，因此我覺得除了社會住宅的討論之外，這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了，請各政府單位做好準備，可以嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委。","下一位請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}}