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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T11:29:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T11:41:20+08:00","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160648","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160648","tool":"pyannote","id":"160648-pyannote"},"job_id":"vCpM6K1JMAvjERew","queued_at":"2025-04-24 12:52:20","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2025-04-24 12:53:06","msg":"downloading 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\"end\": 193.393, \"text\": \"因為有關於預算解凍的部分大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 192.372, \"end\": 192.472, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 192.472, \"end\": 192.492, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 192.492, \"end\": 192.512, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 192.512, \"end\": 192.572, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 192.572, \"end\": 192.612, \"score\": 0.164}, {\"word\": \"凍\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 192.612, \"end\": 192.632, \"score\": 0.036}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 192.632, \"end\": 192.712, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 192.712, \"end\": 192.733, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 192.733, \"end\": 192.833, \"score\": 0.531}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 192.833, \"end\": 192.933, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 192.933, \"end\": 193.013, \"score\": 0.482}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 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\"凍\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 216.322, \"end\": 216.462, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 216.462, \"end\": 216.582, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 216.582, \"end\": 216.602, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 216.602, \"end\": 216.762, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 216.762, \"end\": 216.903, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 216.903, \"end\": 217.083, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 217.083, \"end\": 217.303, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 217.303, \"end\": 217.443, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 217.443, \"end\": 217.844, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"早\", \"start\": 217.844, \"end\": 218.024, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"早\", \"start\": 218.024, \"end\": 218.184, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 218.184, \"end\": 218.665, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", 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\"start\": 682.962, \"end\": 683.162, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 683.162, \"end\": 683.382, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 683.382, \"end\": 683.763, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 683.763, \"end\": 684.203, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 684.203, \"end\": 684.483, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 684.483, \"end\": 684.623, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"宅\", \"start\": 684.623, \"end\": 684.843, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"留\", \"start\": 684.843, \"end\": 685.224, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 685.224, \"end\": 685.424, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 685.424, \"end\": 685.664, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 685.664, \"end\": 685.844, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 685.844, \"end\": 686.044, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 686.044, \"end\": 686.164, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 686.164, \"end\": 686.425, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 686.425, \"end\": 686.585, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 686.585, \"end\": 686.605, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 689.119, \"end\": 689.501, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 689.501, \"end\": 689.703, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 689.703, \"end\": 689.864, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 689.864, \"end\": 690.145, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 690.145, \"end\": 690.266, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 690.266, \"end\": 690.347, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 690.347, \"end\": 690.367, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,414 --> 00:00:08,050\n謝謝主席我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長吳署長有請\n\n2\n00:00:10,342 --> 00:00:35,392\n部長好署長好部長針對各部會的解凍案現在卓院長已經正式開綠燈請各部會儘速將1584項的解凍報告儘速送到立法院那請問部長內政部何時可以將解凍報告送到立法院來報告委員現在行政院要求我們在星期四要送到立法院是那我們在前兩天今天嘛\n\n3\n00:00:36,858 --> 00:00:52,930\n就今天送到立法院是好那請問一下部長您應該有看到一個這個公文就是文化部的公務員出來爆料說他們早就寫好了麻煩那個他早就寫好了這個簡訊報告了\n\n4\n00:00:55,239 --> 00:01:06,966\n所以請他們務必要確認有被要再瀏覽一次要改一下確認不會被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送的字眼並適時更新數據請問內政部跟所屬的機關有沒有這樣的一個狀況\n\n5\n00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:28,278\n報告委員我們應該不是這樣的處理啦就是說第一個包括我們內政委員會的委員或者是大院的委員所提到的有關凍結案的部分呢我們邀請其他的署或者是其他的內政部的人呢就是再討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的這個報告\n\n6\n00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:47,644\n那在過去一段時間以來我們都是一直在滾動式的調整那因為那個院長啊這個下令叫我們在今天要送上來的時候呢我們在前兩天啊做最後的一個報告那因為我們的報告的那個蠻多的所以我們都是有逐頁看過大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的\n\n7\n00:01:52,059 --> 00:02:06,312\n大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告因為我們的那個凍結的那個提案相當的多所以每個單位什麼時候再準備我們不知道但是原則上應該是以那個總統對外公佈的那個通過的那個版本為主所以我們是以那個版本開始之後呢再做那個各個不同層次上面的一個解凍的報告\n\n8\n00:02:15,620 --> 00:02:32,266\n那還有包括說如何解凍因為有些是凍結的比例是30%70%各不相同那還有委員的要求也各不相同部長我其實辦公室有收到資訊內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了那這樣威爾行政院好像國土署就沒辦法\n\n9\n00:02:33,406 --> 00:02:48,400\n國土署就沒辦法應該是要等到總統三年通過之後我這邊其實有一個有一個籤文啦就是資整理決議解凍報告共27案提出書面報告後使得凍之案是19案提出專案報告並經同意後\n\n10\n00:02:50,462 --> 00:03:06,649\n使得動之共濟罷岸我們沒有那麼少報告委員我們沒有那麼少這是其中一個單位所以我剛有說我們在滾動事的部分所以這個是在二月的時候二月底的時候就有一個這樣解凍報告了但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的三條對外公佈才算這個簽程的時間因為這是你們內部的\n\n11\n00:03:12,372 --> 00:03:13,393\n因為有關於預算解凍的部分大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位\n\n12\n00:03:30,294 --> 00:03:44,973\n所以我請我們的主任秘書他在綜合整理還有重規思維所以我剛剛有問你嘛什麼時候開始寫解凍報告有沒有跟文化不一樣嗎早早就寫好了那現在才在做這樣的那確實我是有拿到你們內部的一個二月底\n\n13\n00:03:45,313 --> 00:04:10,110\n就已經送上來的一個解凍報告的一個簽程其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽程的時間就可以證明有沒有人在說謊那當然還有一種狀況是有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖但是被部長要求只能統一口徑只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字因此無法送解凍案請問有沒有在這回事\n\n14\n00:04:10,490 --> 00:04:32,249\n報告委員我先跟委員講一個數字我們到目前為止就是說總統公佈3月21號公佈的時候我們凍結58案總共85億那所以這些正確的數字就是要會計室跟我們的行政院的主計總書做確認之後我們才能夠有一致性的一個數目字跟那個大院來送到這邊來參考\n\n15\n00:04:33,450 --> 00:04:48,128\n那那個所以呢在討論的過程當中呢事實上我也在跟委員會在垂詢的時候呢我也按照委員會的講法就是說如果沒有做最後的三讀通過的話呢那個預算的屬於是沒有辦法確確的表達\n\n16\n00:04:48,669 --> 00:05:16,288\n有人会动过的冻结案也不需要院会同意的这些应该都可以尽早送来我想立法院冻结预算我们是为了监督政府问责行政绝对不是像我们目前在外面听到一堆都说是因为蓝白砍预算所以不能做哪个补助不能其实因为行政院一直没有送出这样的一个解冻案而不是立法院不肯解冻所以内政部目前部长您刚刚讲到的这些冻结案\n\n17\n00:05:17,288 --> 00:05:44,248\n還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的可不可以列舉一下報告委員現在我們的這個凍結的這個解凍案如果送到立法院來的時候呢是立法院的院會要能夠附委然後再交辦到每一個委員會所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題都可以送解凍案不是您聽我講一下這裡面的大概書面報告有24案但是專案報告呢一共有34案\n\n18\n00:05:45,669 --> 00:06:01,588\n那所以這個專案報告的話還需要在委員會裡面排除那按照立法院你有沒有經過程序委員會才能交辦下來可以先先送到立法院嗎我們才能去做相關的一個後續的一個程序上的一個一個部分的進行嗎\n\n19\n00:06:03,656 --> 00:06:17,805\n還有另外部長我想請教你很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制雖然剛剛講的三月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了那所以到現在都你們都還不肯交立法院審議那是為了什麼\n\n20\n00:06:19,810 --> 00:06:35,976\n我剛提到了第一個今天送出來然後那個所有的書面的部分我們就一致送出對我剛提到的是其實這些三月份都可以送出的嘛因為書面報告本來就可以送出啦因為它又沒有我們又沒有這個而且是委員會要求的書面報告啊\n\n21\n00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:55,675\n謝謝委員指教我們會來改進好謝謝那另外請教一下部長就是根據監察院的報告指出板橋的福州合一住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的一個狀況那目前當然也很多的就是爆發人頭債權人這個進行法拍交易規避那個閉鎖期\n\n22\n00:06:57,455 --> 00:07:12,370\n那谋取暴力那当然内政部也承认这个难以防止炒作那请问部长跟署长内政部作为主管机关政府十年前推出的这个合一住宅目前的这个状况\n\n23\n00:07:13,430 --> 00:07:41,726\n你們目前我知道已經法院有在偵辦一些了包括說有百人被我們主動移送你們主動提出我們主動移送有35案那現在有百人被起訴嘛那最新的進度是已經開庭七案三案不認罪其中一案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪然後分別處以三年有期徒刑三年三個月有期徒刑兩年五個月的有期徒刑然後另外有三人的名下合一住宅被沒收\n\n24\n00:07:42,486 --> 00:08:05,194\n那我想請教一下部長跟署長因為其實這10年前我們可以看一下價格10年前的價格是一坪18萬現在一坪的價格是52.1萬所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子那現在呢我們看到10年後是52.1萬那尤其是很多的投資客利用這個假債權真買賣的一個方式\n\n25\n00:08:07,575 --> 00:08:31,622\n來去規避我們的這個閉鎖期所以變成我們現在看到的不曉得合一住宅到底是合一住宅還是樂透住宅那尤其是您可以看一下我們最近還發現就是說到109年我想這個可能剛剛署長有講是不是國土署發現然後以這個直接移送的就是有55件法拍案的轉移案其中有高達71%是在權人跟拍定為同一人沒錯\n\n26\n00:08:35,143 --> 00:08:52,829\n然後而且還有是同一個地震室來處理數十件的一個案件那請問一下國土署未來要如何避免缺失再次發生跟委員報告這就是為什麼要推社會住宅而不要再做合一住宅的最主要原因因為像這一類的案件\n\n27\n00:08:53,444 --> 00:09:14,031\n你只要透過是政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題那所以包含了現在還有一些縣市還在推我們現在其實都不希望他們再推那第二個在這過程當中我們為什麼要主動移送因為我們主動移送以後我們只要掌握確切的你跟違背當時的政策目的我們是主動把它買回\n\n28\n00:09:15,912 --> 00:09:39,304\n依原價格的八五折買回那買回以後全部當社會住宅用這樣的方式剛剛我提到有三個人目前名下的合一住宅被沒收那針對這個部分國土署有沒有跟這些違法者有我們透過律師再跟他們談因為我就是希望他們同意直接用八五折賣否則我們就會持續那目前執行的進度怎麼樣\n\n29\n00:09:39,784 --> 00:09:57,257\n我們目前已經收回兩戶了還有一戶就對了因為未來案件還很多嘛所以都透過法律訴訟持續的來進行那對於這個你們買回來的這個八五折的這個合宜住宅未來您剛講是要做社會住宅也就是只租不售了\n\n30\n00:09:58,678 --> 00:10:16,881\n要辦的話這樣子就其實都會有很多的這種風險那另外就是說我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛那請問一下就是說針對這個部分未來針對社會住宅的不管是轉租轉借或者也有可能被濫用補貼的一個狀況有沒有設下什麼防範機制\n\n31\n00:10:18,242 --> 00:10:34,030\n我們如果是直接興建的部分我們是透過管理上我們每年都會做查核都會做查核確認是不是什麼樣的查核因為我們都會做住戶的拜訪在林口的部分都會做住戶的拜訪實際了解他的狀況是不是真的租這裡\n\n32\n00:10:34,930 --> 00:11:00,184\n那在租金補貼跟包租代管的部分我們都會透過資料的勾結比對像我們租金補貼到目前已經有兩百多戶有兩百多案是假補貼的就是真零錢但是假補貼那這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對那或是電話的查詢主動去找出這些問題就是希望他們不要有腐爛申請或是說用轉租的方式\n\n33\n00:11:00,404 --> 00:11:26,605\n那請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核一樣都有大概多久的時間我們都是就是因為我們有一個專案辦公室是都會透過第一個資料的比對第二個會去用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡那這樣的方式的話是比較能夠防止是OK好那可能請部長跟署長針對這個部分希望我們能夠把這個社會住宅留給真正需要的人謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n34\n00:11:29,119 --> 00:11:30,367\n好,謝謝徐議員跟委員會報告一下\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3414\t8050\t謝謝主席我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長吳署長有請\n10342\t35392\t部長好署長好部長針對各部會的解凍案現在卓院長已經正式開綠燈請各部會儘速將1584項的解凍報告儘速送到立法院那請問部長內政部何時可以將解凍報告送到立法院來報告委員現在行政院要求我們在星期四要送到立法院是那我們在前兩天今天嘛\n36858\t52930\t就今天送到立法院是好那請問一下部長您應該有看到一個這個公文就是文化部的公務員出來爆料說他們早就寫好了麻煩那個他早就寫好了這個簡訊報告了\n55239\t66966\t所以請他們務必要確認有被要再瀏覽一次要改一下確認不會被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送的字眼並適時更新數據請問內政部跟所屬的機關有沒有這樣的一個狀況\n71800\t88278\t報告委員 我們應該不是這樣的處理啦就是說 第一個包括我們內政委員會的委員或者是大院的委員所提到的有關凍結案的部分呢我們邀請其他的署或者是其他的內政部的人呢就是再討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的這個報告\n90660\t107644\t那在過去一段時間以來我們都是一直在滾動式的調整那因為那個院長啊這個下令叫我們在今天要送上來的時候呢我們在前兩天啊做最後的一個報告那因為我們的報告的那個蠻多的所以我們都是有逐頁看過大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的\n112059\t126312\t大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告因為我們的那個凍結的那個提案相當的多所以每個單位什麼時候再準備我們不知道但是原則上應該是以那個總統對外公佈的那個通過的那個版本為主所以我們是以那個版本開始之後呢再做那個各個不同層次上面的一個解凍的報告\n135620\t152266\t那還有包括說如何解凍因為有些是凍結的比例是30% 70%各不相同那還有委員的要求也各不相同部長我其實辦公室有收到資訊內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了那這樣威爾行政院好像國土署就沒辦法\n153406\t168400\t國土署就沒辦法應該是要等到總統三年通過之後我這邊其實有一個有一個籤文啦就是資整理決議解凍報告共27案提出書面報告後使得凍之案是19案提出專案報告並經同意後\n170462\t186649\t使得動之共濟罷岸我們沒有那麼少報告委員我們沒有那麼少這是其中一個單位所以我剛有說我們在滾動事的部分所以這個是在二月的時候二月底的時候就有一個這樣解凍報告了但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的三條對外公佈才算這個簽程的時間因為這是你們內部的\n192372\t193393\t因為有關於預算解凍的部分大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位\n210294\t224973\t所以我請我們的主任秘書他在綜合整理還有重規思維所以我剛剛有問你嘛什麼時候開始寫解凍報告有沒有跟文化不一樣嗎早早就寫好了那現在才在做這樣的那確實我是有拿到你們內部的一個二月底\n225313\t250110\t就已經送上來的一個解凍報告的一個簽程其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽程的時間就可以證明有沒有人在說謊那當然還有一種狀況是有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖但是被部長要求只能統一口徑只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字因此無法送解凍案請問有沒有在這回事\n250490\t272249\t報告委員我先跟委員講一個數字我們到目前為止就是說總統公佈3月21號公佈的時候我們凍結58案總共85億那所以這些正確的數字就是要會計室跟我們的行政院的主計總書做確認之後我們才能夠有一致性的一個數目字跟那個大院來送到這邊來參考\n273450\t288128\t那那個所以呢在討論的過程當中呢事實上我也在跟委員會在垂詢的時候呢我也按照委員會的講法就是說如果沒有做最後的三讀通過的話呢那個預算的屬於是沒有辦法確確的表達\n288669\t316288\t有人会动过的冻结案也不需要院会同意的这些应该都可以尽早送来我想立法院冻结预算我们是为了监督政府问责行政绝对不是像我们目前在外面听到一堆都说是因为蓝白砍预算所以不能做哪个补助不能其实因为行政院一直没有送出这样的一个解冻案而不是立法院不肯解冻所以内政部目前部长您刚刚讲到的这些冻结案\n317288\t344248\t還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的可不可以列舉一下報告委員現在我們的這個凍結的這個解凍案如果送到立法院來的時候呢是立法院的院會要能夠附委然後再交辦到每一個委員會所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題都可以送解凍案不是您聽我講一下這裡面的大概書面報告有24案但是專案報告呢一共有34案\n345669\t361588\t那所以這個專案報告的話還需要在委員會裡面排除那按照立法院你有沒有經過程序委員會才能交辦下來可以先先送到立法院嗎我們才能去做相關的一個後續的一個程序上的一個一個部分的進行嗎\n363656\t377805\t還有另外部長我想請教你很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制雖然剛剛講的三月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了那所以到現在都你們都還不肯交立法院審議那是為了什麼\n379810\t395976\t我剛提到了第一個今天送出來然後那個所有的書面的部分我們就一致送出對我剛提到的是其實這些三月份都可以送出的嘛因為書面報告本來就可以送出啦因為它又沒有我們又沒有這個而且是委員會要求的書面報告啊\n396916\t415675\t謝謝委員指教我們會來改進好謝謝那另外請教一下部長就是根據監察院的報告指出板橋的福州合一住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的一個狀況那目前當然也很多的就是爆發人頭債權人這個進行法拍交易規避那個閉鎖期\n417455\t432370\t那谋取暴力那当然内政部也承认这个难以防止炒作那请问部长跟署长内政部作为主管机关政府十年前推出的这个合一住宅目前的这个状况\n433430\t461726\t你們目前我知道已經法院有在偵辦一些了包括說有百人被我們主動移送你們主動提出我們主動移送有35案那現在有百人被起訴嘛那最新的進度是已經開庭七案三案不認罪其中一案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪然後分別處以三年有期徒刑三年三個月有期徒刑兩年五個月的有期徒刑然後另外有三人的名下合一住宅被沒收\n462486\t485194\t那我想請教一下部長跟署長因為其實這10年前我們可以看一下價格10年前的價格是一坪18萬現在一坪的價格是52.1萬所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子那現在呢我們看到10年後是52.1萬那尤其是很多的投資客利用這個假債權真買賣的一個方式\n487575\t511622\t來去規避我們的這個閉鎖期所以變成我們現在看到的不曉得合一住宅到底是合一住宅還是樂透住宅那尤其是您可以看一下我們最近還發現就是說到109年我想這個可能剛剛署長有講是不是國土署發現然後以這個直接移送的就是有55件法拍案的轉移案其中有高達71%是在權人跟拍定為同一人沒錯\n515143\t532829\t然後而且還有是同一個地震室來處理數十件的一個案件那請問一下國土署未來要如何避免缺失再次發生跟委員報告這就是為什麼要推社會住宅而不要再做合一住宅的最主要原因因為像這一類的案件\n533444\t554031\t你只要透過是政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題那所以包含了現在還有一些縣市還在推我們現在其實都不希望他們再推那第二個在這過程當中我們為什麼要主動移送因為我們主動移送以後我們只要掌握確切的你跟違背當時的政策目的我們是主動把它買回\n555912\t579304\t依原價格的八五折買回那買回以後全部當社會住宅用這樣的方式剛剛我提到有三個人目前名下的合一住宅被沒收那針對這個部分國土署有沒有跟這些違法者有 我們透過律師再跟他們談因為我就是希望他們同意直接用八五折賣否則我們就會持續那目前執行的進度怎麼樣\n579784\t597257\t我們目前已經收回兩戶了還有一戶就對了因為未來案件還很多嘛所以都透過法律訴訟持續的來進行那對於這個你們買回來的這個八五折的這個合宜住宅未來您剛講是要做社會住宅也就是只租不售了\n598678\t616881\t要辦的話這樣子就其實都會有很多的這種風險那另外就是說我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛那請問一下就是說針對這個部分未來針對社會住宅的不管是轉租轉借或者也有可能被濫用補貼的一個狀況有沒有設下什麼防範機制\n618242\t634030\t我們如果是直接興建的部分我們是透過管理上我們每年都會做查核都會做查核確認是不是什麼樣的查核因為我們都會做住戶的拜訪在林口的部分都會做住戶的拜訪實際了解他的狀況是不是真的租這裡\n634930\t660184\t那在租金補貼跟包租代管的部分我們都會透過資料的勾結比對像我們租金補貼到目前已經有兩百多戶有兩百多案是假補貼的就是真零錢但是假補貼那這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對那或是電話的查詢主動去找出這些問題就是希望他們不要有腐爛申請或是說用轉租的方式\n660404\t686605\t那請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核一樣都有大概多久的時間我們都是就是因為我們有一個專案辦公室是都會透過第一個資料的比對第二個會去用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡那這樣的方式的話是比較能夠防止是OK好那可能請部長跟署長針對這個部分希望我們能夠把這個社會住宅留給真正需要的人謝謝好謝謝委員\n689119\t690367\t好,謝謝徐議員跟委員會報告一下\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長吳署長有請\n部長好署長好部長針對各部會的解凍案現在卓院長已經正式開綠燈請各部會儘速將1584項的解凍報告儘速送到立法院那請問部長內政部何時可以將解凍報告送到立法院來報告委員現在行政院要求我們在星期四要送到立法院是那我們在前兩天今天嘛\n就今天送到立法院是好那請問一下部長您應該有看到一個這個公文就是文化部的公務員出來爆料說他們早就寫好了麻煩那個他早就寫好了這個簡訊報告了\n所以請他們務必要確認有被要再瀏覽一次要改一下確認不會被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送的字眼並適時更新數據請問內政部跟所屬的機關有沒有這樣的一個狀況\n報告委員 我們應該不是這樣的處理啦就是說 第一個包括我們內政委員會的委員或者是大院的委員所提到的有關凍結案的部分呢我們邀請其他的署或者是其他的內政部的人呢就是再討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的這個報告\n那在過去一段時間以來我們都是一直在滾動式的調整那因為那個院長啊這個下令叫我們在今天要送上來的時候呢我們在前兩天啊做最後的一個報告那因為我們的報告的那個蠻多的所以我們都是有逐頁看過大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的\n大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告因為我們的那個凍結的那個提案相當的多所以每個單位什麼時候再準備我們不知道但是原則上應該是以那個總統對外公佈的那個通過的那個版本為主所以我們是以那個版本開始之後呢再做那個各個不同層次上面的一個解凍的報告\n那還有包括說如何解凍因為有些是凍結的比例是30% 70%各不相同那還有委員的要求也各不相同部長我其實辦公室有收到資訊內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了那這樣威爾行政院好像國土署就沒辦法\n國土署就沒辦法應該是要等到總統三年通過之後我這邊其實有一個有一個籤文啦就是資整理決議解凍報告共27案提出書面報告後使得凍之案是19案提出專案報告並經同意後\n使得動之共濟罷岸我們沒有那麼少報告委員我們沒有那麼少這是其中一個單位所以我剛有說我們在滾動事的部分所以這個是在二月的時候二月底的時候就有一個這樣解凍報告了但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的三條對外公佈才算這個簽程的時間因為這是你們內部的\n因為有關於預算解凍的部分大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位\n所以我請我們的主任秘書他在綜合整理還有重規思維所以我剛剛有問你嘛什麼時候開始寫解凍報告有沒有跟文化不一樣嗎早早就寫好了那現在才在做這樣的那確實我是有拿到你們內部的一個二月底\n就已經送上來的一個解凍報告的一個簽程其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽程的時間就可以證明有沒有人在說謊那當然還有一種狀況是有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖但是被部長要求只能統一口徑只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字因此無法送解凍案請問有沒有在這回事\n報告委員我先跟委員講一個數字我們到目前為止就是說總統公佈3月21號公佈的時候我們凍結58案總共85億那所以這些正確的數字就是要會計室跟我們的行政院的主計總書做確認之後我們才能夠有一致性的一個數目字跟那個大院來送到這邊來參考\n那那個所以呢在討論的過程當中呢事實上我也在跟委員會在垂詢的時候呢我也按照委員會的講法就是說如果沒有做最後的三讀通過的話呢那個預算的屬於是沒有辦法確確的表達\n有人会动过的冻结案也不需要院会同意的这些应该都可以尽早送来我想立法院冻结预算我们是为了监督政府问责行政绝对不是像我们目前在外面听到一堆都说是因为蓝白砍预算所以不能做哪个补助不能其实因为行政院一直没有送出这样的一个解冻案而不是立法院不肯解冻所以内政部目前部长您刚刚讲到的这些冻结案\n還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的可不可以列舉一下報告委員現在我們的這個凍結的這個解凍案如果送到立法院來的時候呢是立法院的院會要能夠附委然後再交辦到每一個委員會所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題都可以送解凍案不是您聽我講一下這裡面的大概書面報告有24案但是專案報告呢一共有34案\n那所以這個專案報告的話還需要在委員會裡面排除那按照立法院你有沒有經過程序委員會才能交辦下來可以先先送到立法院嗎我們才能去做相關的一個後續的一個程序上的一個一個部分的進行嗎\n還有另外部長我想請教你很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制雖然剛剛講的三月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了那所以到現在都你們都還不肯交立法院審議那是為了什麼\n我剛提到了第一個今天送出來然後那個所有的書面的部分我們就一致送出對我剛提到的是其實這些三月份都可以送出的嘛因為書面報告本來就可以送出啦因為它又沒有我們又沒有這個而且是委員會要求的書面報告啊\n謝謝委員指教我們會來改進好謝謝那另外請教一下部長就是根據監察院的報告指出板橋的福州合一住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的一個狀況那目前當然也很多的就是爆發人頭債權人這個進行法拍交易規避那個閉鎖期\n那谋取暴力那当然内政部也承认这个难以防止炒作那请问部长跟署长内政部作为主管机关政府十年前推出的这个合一住宅目前的这个状况\n你們目前我知道已經法院有在偵辦一些了包括說有百人被我們主動移送你們主動提出我們主動移送有35案那現在有百人被起訴嘛那最新的進度是已經開庭七案三案不認罪其中一案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪然後分別處以三年有期徒刑三年三個月有期徒刑兩年五個月的有期徒刑然後另外有三人的名下合一住宅被沒收\n那我想請教一下部長跟署長因為其實這10年前我們可以看一下價格10年前的價格是一坪18萬現在一坪的價格是52.1萬所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子那現在呢我們看到10年後是52.1萬那尤其是很多的投資客利用這個假債權真買賣的一個方式\n來去規避我們的這個閉鎖期所以變成我們現在看到的不曉得合一住宅到底是合一住宅還是樂透住宅那尤其是您可以看一下我們最近還發現就是說到109年我想這個可能剛剛署長有講是不是國土署發現然後以這個直接移送的就是有55件法拍案的轉移案其中有高達71%是在權人跟拍定為同一人沒錯\n然後而且還有是同一個地震室來處理數十件的一個案件那請問一下國土署未來要如何避免缺失再次發生跟委員報告這就是為什麼要推社會住宅而不要再做合一住宅的最主要原因因為像這一類的案件\n你只要透過是政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題那所以包含了現在還有一些縣市還在推我們現在其實都不希望他們再推那第二個在這過程當中我們為什麼要主動移送因為我們主動移送以後我們只要掌握確切的你跟違背當時的政策目的我們是主動把它買回\n依原價格的八五折買回那買回以後全部當社會住宅用這樣的方式剛剛我提到有三個人目前名下的合一住宅被沒收那針對這個部分國土署有沒有跟這些違法者有 我們透過律師再跟他們談因為我就是希望他們同意直接用八五折賣否則我們就會持續那目前執行的進度怎麼樣\n我們目前已經收回兩戶了還有一戶就對了因為未來案件還很多嘛所以都透過法律訴訟持續的來進行那對於這個你們買回來的這個八五折的這個合宜住宅未來您剛講是要做社會住宅也就是只租不售了\n要辦的話這樣子就其實都會有很多的這種風險那另外就是說我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛那請問一下就是說針對這個部分未來針對社會住宅的不管是轉租轉借或者也有可能被濫用補貼的一個狀況有沒有設下什麼防範機制\n我們如果是直接興建的部分我們是透過管理上我們每年都會做查核都會做查核確認是不是什麼樣的查核因為我們都會做住戶的拜訪在林口的部分都會做住戶的拜訪實際了解他的狀況是不是真的租這裡\n那在租金補貼跟包租代管的部分我們都會透過資料的勾結比對像我們租金補貼到目前已經有兩百多戶有兩百多案是假補貼的就是真零錢但是假補貼那這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對那或是電話的查詢主動去找出這些問題就是希望他們不要有腐爛申請或是說用轉租的方式\n那請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核一樣都有大概多久的時間我們都是就是因為我們有一個專案辦公室是都會透過第一個資料的比對第二個會去用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡那這樣的方式的話是比較能夠防止是OK好那可能請部長跟署長針對這個部分希望我們能夠把這個社會住宅留給真正需要的人謝謝好謝謝委員\n好,謝謝徐議員跟委員會報告一下\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.414 --> 00:08.050\n謝謝主席我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長吳署長有請\n\n00:10.342 --> 00:35.392\n部長好署長好部長針對各部會的解凍案現在卓院長已經正式開綠燈請各部會儘速將1584項的解凍報告儘速送到立法院那請問部長內政部何時可以將解凍報告送到立法院來報告委員現在行政院要求我們在星期四要送到立法院是那我們在前兩天今天嘛\n\n00:36.858 --> 00:52.930\n就今天送到立法院是好那請問一下部長您應該有看到一個這個公文就是文化部的公務員出來爆料說他們早就寫好了麻煩那個他早就寫好了這個簡訊報告了\n\n00:55.239 --> 01:06.966\n所以請他們務必要確認有被要再瀏覽一次要改一下確認不會被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送的字眼並適時更新數據請問內政部跟所屬的機關有沒有這樣的一個狀況\n\n01:11.800 --> 01:28.278\n報告委員我們應該不是這樣的處理啦就是說第一個包括我們內政委員會的委員或者是大院的委員所提到的有關凍結案的部分呢我們邀請其他的署或者是其他的內政部的人呢就是再討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的這個報告\n\n01:30.660 --> 01:47.644\n那在過去一段時間以來我們都是一直在滾動式的調整那因為那個院長啊這個下令叫我們在今天要送上來的時候呢我們在前兩天啊做最後的一個報告那因為我們的報告的那個蠻多的所以我們都是有逐頁看過大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的\n\n01:52.059 --> 02:06.312\n大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告因為我們的那個凍結的那個提案相當的多所以每個單位什麼時候再準備我們不知道但是原則上應該是以那個總統對外公佈的那個通過的那個版本為主所以我們是以那個版本開始之後呢再做那個各個不同層次上面的一個解凍的報告\n\n02:15.620 --> 02:32.266\n那還有包括說如何解凍因為有些是凍結的比例是30%70%各不相同那還有委員的要求也各不相同部長我其實辦公室有收到資訊內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了那這樣威爾行政院好像國土署就沒辦法\n\n02:33.406 --> 02:48.400\n國土署就沒辦法應該是要等到總統三年通過之後我這邊其實有一個有一個籤文啦就是資整理決議解凍報告共27案提出書面報告後使得凍之案是19案提出專案報告並經同意後\n\n02:50.462 --> 03:06.649\n使得動之共濟罷岸我們沒有那麼少報告委員我們沒有那麼少這是其中一個單位所以我剛有說我們在滾動事的部分所以這個是在二月的時候二月底的時候就有一個這樣解凍報告了但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的三條對外公佈才算這個簽程的時間因為這是你們內部的\n\n03:12.372 --> 03:13.393\n因為有關於預算解凍的部分大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位\n\n03:30.294 --> 03:44.973\n所以我請我們的主任秘書他在綜合整理還有重規思維所以我剛剛有問你嘛什麼時候開始寫解凍報告有沒有跟文化不一樣嗎早早就寫好了那現在才在做這樣的那確實我是有拿到你們內部的一個二月底\n\n03:45.313 --> 04:10.110\n就已經送上來的一個解凍報告的一個簽程其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽程的時間就可以證明有沒有人在說謊那當然還有一種狀況是有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖但是被部長要求只能統一口徑只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字因此無法送解凍案請問有沒有在這回事\n\n04:10.490 --> 04:32.249\n報告委員我先跟委員講一個數字我們到目前為止就是說總統公佈3月21號公佈的時候我們凍結58案總共85億那所以這些正確的數字就是要會計室跟我們的行政院的主計總書做確認之後我們才能夠有一致性的一個數目字跟那個大院來送到這邊來參考\n\n04:33.450 --> 04:48.128\n那那個所以呢在討論的過程當中呢事實上我也在跟委員會在垂詢的時候呢我也按照委員會的講法就是說如果沒有做最後的三讀通過的話呢那個預算的屬於是沒有辦法確確的表達\n\n04:48.669 --> 05:16.288\n有人会动过的冻结案也不需要院会同意的这些应该都可以尽早送来我想立法院冻结预算我们是为了监督政府问责行政绝对不是像我们目前在外面听到一堆都说是因为蓝白砍预算所以不能做哪个补助不能其实因为行政院一直没有送出这样的一个解冻案而不是立法院不肯解冻所以内政部目前部长您刚刚讲到的这些冻结案\n\n05:17.288 --> 05:44.248\n還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的可不可以列舉一下報告委員現在我們的這個凍結的這個解凍案如果送到立法院來的時候呢是立法院的院會要能夠附委然後再交辦到每一個委員會所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題都可以送解凍案不是您聽我講一下這裡面的大概書面報告有24案但是專案報告呢一共有34案\n\n05:45.669 --> 06:01.588\n那所以這個專案報告的話還需要在委員會裡面排除那按照立法院你有沒有經過程序委員會才能交辦下來可以先先送到立法院嗎我們才能去做相關的一個後續的一個程序上的一個一個部分的進行嗎\n\n06:03.656 --> 06:17.805\n還有另外部長我想請教你很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制雖然剛剛講的三月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了那所以到現在都你們都還不肯交立法院審議那是為了什麼\n\n06:19.810 --> 06:35.976\n我剛提到了第一個今天送出來然後那個所有的書面的部分我們就一致送出對我剛提到的是其實這些三月份都可以送出的嘛因為書面報告本來就可以送出啦因為它又沒有我們又沒有這個而且是委員會要求的書面報告啊\n\n06:36.916 --> 06:55.675\n謝謝委員指教我們會來改進好謝謝那另外請教一下部長就是根據監察院的報告指出板橋的福州合一住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的一個狀況那目前當然也很多的就是爆發人頭債權人這個進行法拍交易規避那個閉鎖期\n\n06:57.455 --> 07:12.370\n那谋取暴力那当然内政部也承认这个难以防止炒作那请问部长跟署长内政部作为主管机关政府十年前推出的这个合一住宅目前的这个状况\n\n07:13.430 --> 07:41.726\n你們目前我知道已經法院有在偵辦一些了包括說有百人被我們主動移送你們主動提出我們主動移送有35案那現在有百人被起訴嘛那最新的進度是已經開庭七案三案不認罪其中一案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪然後分別處以三年有期徒刑三年三個月有期徒刑兩年五個月的有期徒刑然後另外有三人的名下合一住宅被沒收\n\n07:42.486 --> 08:05.194\n那我想請教一下部長跟署長因為其實這10年前我們可以看一下價格10年前的價格是一坪18萬現在一坪的價格是52.1萬所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子那現在呢我們看到10年後是52.1萬那尤其是很多的投資客利用這個假債權真買賣的一個方式\n\n08:07.575 --> 08:31.622\n來去規避我們的這個閉鎖期所以變成我們現在看到的不曉得合一住宅到底是合一住宅還是樂透住宅那尤其是您可以看一下我們最近還發現就是說到109年我想這個可能剛剛署長有講是不是國土署發現然後以這個直接移送的就是有55件法拍案的轉移案其中有高達71%是在權人跟拍定為同一人沒錯\n\n08:35.143 --> 08:52.829\n然後而且還有是同一個地震室來處理數十件的一個案件那請問一下國土署未來要如何避免缺失再次發生跟委員報告這就是為什麼要推社會住宅而不要再做合一住宅的最主要原因因為像這一類的案件\n\n08:53.444 --> 09:14.031\n你只要透過是政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題那所以包含了現在還有一些縣市還在推我們現在其實都不希望他們再推那第二個在這過程當中我們為什麼要主動移送因為我們主動移送以後我們只要掌握確切的你跟違背當時的政策目的我們是主動把它買回\n\n09:15.912 --> 09:39.304\n依原價格的八五折買回那買回以後全部當社會住宅用這樣的方式剛剛我提到有三個人目前名下的合一住宅被沒收那針對這個部分國土署有沒有跟這些違法者有我們透過律師再跟他們談因為我就是希望他們同意直接用八五折賣否則我們就會持續那目前執行的進度怎麼樣\n\n09:39.784 --> 09:57.257\n我們目前已經收回兩戶了還有一戶就對了因為未來案件還很多嘛所以都透過法律訴訟持續的來進行那對於這個你們買回來的這個八五折的這個合宜住宅未來您剛講是要做社會住宅也就是只租不售了\n\n09:58.678 --> 10:16.881\n要辦的話這樣子就其實都會有很多的這種風險那另外就是說我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛那請問一下就是說針對這個部分未來針對社會住宅的不管是轉租轉借或者也有可能被濫用補貼的一個狀況有沒有設下什麼防範機制\n\n10:18.242 --> 10:34.030\n我們如果是直接興建的部分我們是透過管理上我們每年都會做查核都會做查核確認是不是什麼樣的查核因為我們都會做住戶的拜訪在林口的部分都會做住戶的拜訪實際了解他的狀況是不是真的租這裡\n\n10:34.930 --> 11:00.184\n那在租金補貼跟包租代管的部分我們都會透過資料的勾結比對像我們租金補貼到目前已經有兩百多戶有兩百多案是假補貼的就是真零錢但是假補貼那這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對那或是電話的查詢主動去找出這些問題就是希望他們不要有腐爛申請或是說用轉租的方式\n\n11:00.404 --> 11:26.605\n那請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核一樣都有大概多久的時間我們都是就是因為我們有一個專案辦公室是都會透過第一個資料的比對第二個會去用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡那這樣的方式的話是比較能夠防止是OK好那可能請部長跟署長針對這個部分希望我們能夠把這個社會住宅留給真正需要的人謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n11:29.119 --> 11:30.367\n好,謝謝徐議員跟委員會報告一下\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.414,"end":8.05,"text":"謝謝主席我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長吳署長有請"},{"start":10.342,"end":35.392,"text":"部長好署長好部長針對各部會的解凍案現在卓院長已經正式開綠燈請各部會儘速將1584項的解凍報告儘速送到立法院那請問部長內政部何時可以將解凍報告送到立法院來報告委員現在行政院要求我們在星期四要送到立法院是那我們在前兩天今天嘛"},{"start":36.858,"end":52.93,"text":"就今天送到立法院是好那請問一下部長您應該有看到一個這個公文就是文化部的公務員出來爆料說他們早就寫好了麻煩那個他早就寫好了這個簡訊報告了"},{"start":55.239,"end":66.966,"text":"所以請他們務必要確認有被要再瀏覽一次要改一下確認不會被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送的字眼並適時更新數據請問內政部跟所屬的機關有沒有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":71.8,"end":88.278,"text":"報告委員 我們應該不是這樣的處理啦就是說 第一個包括我們內政委員會的委員或者是大院的委員所提到的有關凍結案的部分呢我們邀請其他的署或者是其他的內政部的人呢就是再討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的這個報告"},{"start":90.66,"end":107.644,"text":"那在過去一段時間以來我們都是一直在滾動式的調整那因為那個院長啊這個下令叫我們在今天要送上來的時候呢我們在前兩天啊做最後的一個報告那因為我們的報告的那個蠻多的所以我們都是有逐頁看過大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的"},{"start":112.059,"end":126.312,"text":"大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告因為我們的那個凍結的那個提案相當的多所以每個單位什麼時候再準備我們不知道但是原則上應該是以那個總統對外公佈的那個通過的那個版本為主所以我們是以那個版本開始之後呢再做那個各個不同層次上面的一個解凍的報告"},{"start":135.62,"end":152.266,"text":"那還有包括說如何解凍因為有些是凍結的比例是30% 70%各不相同那還有委員的要求也各不相同部長我其實辦公室有收到資訊內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了那這樣威爾行政院好像國土署就沒辦法"},{"start":153.406,"end":168.4,"text":"國土署就沒辦法應該是要等到總統三年通過之後我這邊其實有一個有一個籤文啦就是資整理決議解凍報告共27案提出書面報告後使得凍之案是19案提出專案報告並經同意後"},{"start":170.462,"end":186.649,"text":"使得動之共濟罷岸我們沒有那麼少報告委員我們沒有那麼少這是其中一個單位所以我剛有說我們在滾動事的部分所以這個是在二月的時候二月底的時候就有一個這樣解凍報告了但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的三條對外公佈才算這個簽程的時間因為這是你們內部的"},{"start":192.372,"end":193.393,"text":"因為有關於預算解凍的部分大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位"},{"start":210.294,"end":224.973,"text":"所以我請我們的主任秘書他在綜合整理還有重規思維所以我剛剛有問你嘛什麼時候開始寫解凍報告有沒有跟文化不一樣嗎早早就寫好了那現在才在做這樣的那確實我是有拿到你們內部的一個二月底"},{"start":225.313,"end":250.11,"text":"就已經送上來的一個解凍報告的一個簽程其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽程的時間就可以證明有沒有人在說謊那當然還有一種狀況是有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖但是被部長要求只能統一口徑只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字因此無法送解凍案請問有沒有在這回事"},{"start":250.49,"end":272.249,"text":"報告委員我先跟委員講一個數字我們到目前為止就是說總統公佈3月21號公佈的時候我們凍結58案總共85億那所以這些正確的數字就是要會計室跟我們的行政院的主計總書做確認之後我們才能夠有一致性的一個數目字跟那個大院來送到這邊來參考"},{"start":273.45,"end":288.128,"text":"那那個所以呢在討論的過程當中呢事實上我也在跟委員會在垂詢的時候呢我也按照委員會的講法就是說如果沒有做最後的三讀通過的話呢那個預算的屬於是沒有辦法確確的表達"},{"start":288.669,"end":316.288,"text":"有人会动过的冻结案也不需要院会同意的这些应该都可以尽早送来我想立法院冻结预算我们是为了监督政府问责行政绝对不是像我们目前在外面听到一堆都说是因为蓝白砍预算所以不能做哪个补助不能其实因为行政院一直没有送出这样的一个解冻案而不是立法院不肯解冻所以内政部目前部长您刚刚讲到的这些冻结案"},{"start":317.288,"end":344.248,"text":"還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的可不可以列舉一下報告委員現在我們的這個凍結的這個解凍案如果送到立法院來的時候呢是立法院的院會要能夠附委然後再交辦到每一個委員會所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題都可以送解凍案不是您聽我講一下這裡面的大概書面報告有24案但是專案報告呢一共有34案"},{"start":345.669,"end":361.588,"text":"那所以這個專案報告的話還需要在委員會裡面排除那按照立法院你有沒有經過程序委員會才能交辦下來可以先先送到立法院嗎我們才能去做相關的一個後續的一個程序上的一個一個部分的進行嗎"},{"start":363.656,"end":377.805,"text":"還有另外部長我想請教你很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制雖然剛剛講的三月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了那所以到現在都你們都還不肯交立法院審議那是為了什麼"},{"start":379.81,"end":395.976,"text":"我剛提到了第一個今天送出來然後那個所有的書面的部分我們就一致送出對我剛提到的是其實這些三月份都可以送出的嘛因為書面報告本來就可以送出啦因為它又沒有我們又沒有這個而且是委員會要求的書面報告啊"},{"start":396.916,"end":415.675,"text":"謝謝委員指教我們會來改進好謝謝那另外請教一下部長就是根據監察院的報告指出板橋的福州合一住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的一個狀況那目前當然也很多的就是爆發人頭債權人這個進行法拍交易規避那個閉鎖期"},{"start":417.455,"end":432.37,"text":"那谋取暴力那当然内政部也承认这个难以防止炒作那请问部长跟署长内政部作为主管机关政府十年前推出的这个合一住宅目前的这个状况"},{"start":433.43,"end":461.726,"text":"你們目前我知道已經法院有在偵辦一些了包括說有百人被我們主動移送你們主動提出我們主動移送有35案那現在有百人被起訴嘛那最新的進度是已經開庭七案三案不認罪其中一案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪然後分別處以三年有期徒刑三年三個月有期徒刑兩年五個月的有期徒刑然後另外有三人的名下合一住宅被沒收"},{"start":462.486,"end":485.194,"text":"那我想請教一下部長跟署長因為其實這10年前我們可以看一下價格10年前的價格是一坪18萬現在一坪的價格是52.1萬所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子那現在呢我們看到10年後是52.1萬那尤其是很多的投資客利用這個假債權真買賣的一個方式"},{"start":487.575,"end":511.622,"text":"來去規避我們的這個閉鎖期所以變成我們現在看到的不曉得合一住宅到底是合一住宅還是樂透住宅那尤其是您可以看一下我們最近還發現就是說到109年我想這個可能剛剛署長有講是不是國土署發現然後以這個直接移送的就是有55件法拍案的轉移案其中有高達71%是在權人跟拍定為同一人沒錯"},{"start":515.143,"end":532.829,"text":"然後而且還有是同一個地震室來處理數十件的一個案件那請問一下國土署未來要如何避免缺失再次發生跟委員報告這就是為什麼要推社會住宅而不要再做合一住宅的最主要原因因為像這一類的案件"},{"start":533.444,"end":554.031,"text":"你只要透過是政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題那所以包含了現在還有一些縣市還在推我們現在其實都不希望他們再推那第二個在這過程當中我們為什麼要主動移送因為我們主動移送以後我們只要掌握確切的你跟違背當時的政策目的我們是主動把它買回"},{"start":555.912,"end":579.304,"text":"依原價格的八五折買回那買回以後全部當社會住宅用這樣的方式剛剛我提到有三個人目前名下的合一住宅被沒收那針對這個部分國土署有沒有跟這些違法者有 我們透過律師再跟他們談因為我就是希望他們同意直接用八五折賣否則我們就會持續那目前執行的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":579.784,"end":597.257,"text":"我們目前已經收回兩戶了還有一戶就對了因為未來案件還很多嘛所以都透過法律訴訟持續的來進行那對於這個你們買回來的這個八五折的這個合宜住宅未來您剛講是要做社會住宅也就是只租不售了"},{"start":598.678,"end":616.881,"text":"要辦的話這樣子就其實都會有很多的這種風險那另外就是說我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛那請問一下就是說針對這個部分未來針對社會住宅的不管是轉租轉借或者也有可能被濫用補貼的一個狀況有沒有設下什麼防範機制"},{"start":618.242,"end":634.03,"text":"我們如果是直接興建的部分我們是透過管理上我們每年都會做查核都會做查核確認是不是什麼樣的查核因為我們都會做住戶的拜訪在林口的部分都會做住戶的拜訪實際了解他的狀況是不是真的租這裡"},{"start":634.93,"end":660.184,"text":"那在租金補貼跟包租代管的部分我們都會透過資料的勾結比對像我們租金補貼到目前已經有兩百多戶有兩百多案是假補貼的就是真零錢但是假補貼那這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對那或是電話的查詢主動去找出這些問題就是希望他們不要有腐爛申請或是說用轉租的方式"},{"start":660.404,"end":686.605,"text":"那請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核一樣都有大概多久的時間我們都是就是因為我們有一個專案辦公室是都會透過第一個資料的比對第二個會去用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡那這樣的方式的話是比較能夠防止是OK好那可能請部長跟署長針對這個部分希望我們能夠把這個社會住宅留給真正需要的人謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":689.119,"end":690.367,"text":"好,謝謝徐議員跟委員會報告一下"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時29分）謝謝主席，我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳欣修署長。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：劉部長、吳署長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好、署長好。部長，針對各部會的解凍案，現在卓院長已經正式開綠燈，請各部會儘速將1,584項的解凍報告儘速送到立法院，請問部長，內政部何時可以將解凍報告送到立法院？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在行政院要求我們在星期四要送到立法院，我們在前兩……"],["許委員宇甄：星期四就今天嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：對，今天星期四，就今天。"],["許委員宇甄：送到立法院。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好。請問一下部長，您應該有看到這個公文，文化部的公務員出來爆料說他們早就寫好解凍報告了，所以請他們務必要再瀏覽一次，要改一下，確認不會有被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送的字眼，並適時更新數據。請問內政部跟所屬的機關有沒有這樣的狀況？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們應該不是這樣處理啦，第一個，包括我們內政委員會的委員或是大院的委員提到有關凍結案的部分，我們邀請其他的署或是其他內政部的人再討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的報告。在過去一段時間以來，我們一直都在滾動式調整，因為院長下令叫我們要在今天送上來的時候，我們在前兩天做最後的報告，因為我們的報告滿多的，所以我們都有逐頁看過。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的？"],["劉部長世芳：大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告，因為我們的凍結的提案相當多，所以每個單位什麼時候在準備，我們不知道，但是原則上應該是以總統對外公布的通過版本為主，所以我們是以那個版本開始之後，再做各個不同層次上的解凍報告，還有包括如何解凍，因為有些凍結的比例是30%、70%，各不相同，還有委員的要求也各不相同。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，其實辦公室有收到資訊，內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了，當然為了行政院……"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，像國土署就沒辦法，應該是要等到總統三讀通過之後的。"],["許委員宇甄：我這邊其實有一個簽文，就是茲整理決議解凍報告共27案，提出書面報告後始得動支案是19案，提出專案報告並經同意後始得動支共計8案，這是你們2月份的……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們沒有那麼少。"],["許委員宇甄：這是其中一個單位。"],["劉部長世芳：那是其中一個單位，所以我剛剛有說這都是在滾動式調整。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是在2月的時候就有這樣一個解凍報告了。"],["劉部長世芳：但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的三讀對外公布才算。"],["許委員宇甄：如果你查一下就可以查出來這個簽呈的時間，因為這是你們內部的，剛剛聽說……"],["劉部長世芳：不是每個部會都一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在講的是內政部喔！"],["劉部長世芳：對不起，不是每一個署或者司都一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：所以表示有的2月就已經寫好了，可能還壓在部裡嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，跟委員報告，有關於預算解凍的部分，大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位，所以我請我們的主任秘書綜合整理，還有綜規司。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我剛剛有問你什麼時候開始寫解凍報告，有沒有跟文化部一樣早早就寫好了，現在才在做這樣的……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["許委員宇甄：確實我是有拿到你們內部2月底就已經有送上解凍報告的一個簽呈，其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽呈的時間，就可以證明有沒有人在說謊。當然還有一種狀況是，有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖，但是被部長要求只能統一口徑，只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字，因此無法送解凍案，請問有沒有這回事？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我先跟委員講一個數字，我們到目前為止，就是總統3月21號公布的時候，我們凍結的是58案，總共85億，所以這些正確的數字，就是要會計室跟行政院主計總處確認之後，我們才能夠有一致性的數目字，送到大院參考，所以在討論的過程當中，事實上在委員會垂詢的時候，我也按照委員會的講法，就是如果沒有最後三讀通過的話，那個預算的數字我們沒有辦法明確的表達。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，委員會通過的凍結案，也不需要院會同意的，這些應該都可以儘早送來。我想立法院凍結預算，我們是為了監督政府、問責行政，絕對不是像我們目前在外面聽到一堆都說是因為藍白砍預算，所以不能做哪個補助等等，其實是因為行政院一直沒有送出解凍案，而不是立法院不肯解凍。目前內政部的部分，部長，您剛剛講到的這些凍結案，還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的，可不可以列舉一下？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在我們凍結的解凍案如果送到立法院來，立法院的院會要能夠付委，然後再交辦到每一個委員會。目前……"],["許委員宇甄：所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題、都可以送解凍案了，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，您聽我講一下，這裡面大概書面報告有24案，但是專案報告一共有34案，而專案報告還需要在委員會裡面排程，按照立法院……"],["許委員宇甄：所以書面報告可以先送了嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：立法院還要經過程序委員會再付委，才能交辦下來。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我知道，書面報告可以先送到立法院嗎？我們才能去做後續相關程序上的進行嘛。另外，部長，我想請教你，很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制，就像剛剛講的3月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了，所以到現在你們都還不肯交立法院審議，那是為了什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛提到了，今天送出來，所有的書面部分我們就一致送出。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我剛剛講到的是，其實這些3月份都可以先送出了嘛，因為書面報告本來就可以送出了，而且是委員會要求的書面報告。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員指教，我們會來改進。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。","另外，請教一下部長，根據監察院的報告指出，板橋的浮州合宜住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的狀況，目前當然也爆發很多人頭債權人進行法拍交易，規避閉鎖期，謀取暴利，當然內政部也承認這個難以防止炒作。請問部長跟署長，內政部作為主管機關，政府十年前推出的合宜住宅，目前的狀況，我知道法院已經有在偵辦一些，包括有百人被……"],["吳署長欣修：應該是說我們主動移送的。"],["許委員宇甄：你們主動提出。"],["吳署長欣修：我們主動移送有35案。"],["許委員宇甄：現在有百人被起訴嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["許委員宇甄：最新的進度是已經開庭7案，3案不認罪，其中1案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪，分別處以三年三個月有期徒刑、兩年五個月的有期徒刑，另外有3人名下的合宜住宅被沒收。我想請教一下部長跟署長，我們可以看一下十年前的價格是1坪18萬，現在1坪的價格是52.1萬，所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子，現在我們看到十年後是52.1萬，尤其是很多的投資客利用假債權真買賣的方式來規避閉鎖期，所以變成我們現在看到的，不曉得合宜住宅到底是合宜住宅還是樂透住宅。尤其是您可以看一下，我們最近還發現，到109年，我想剛剛署長有講，是不是國土署發現然後直接移送的……"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們都已經主動移送。"],["許委員宇甄：就是有55件法拍案的轉移案，其中有高達71%是債權人跟拍定為同一人。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["許委員宇甄：而且還有是同一個地政士來處理數十件的案件。請問一下國土署，未來要如何避免缺失再次發生？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這就是為什麼要推社會住宅，而不要再做合宜住宅的最主要原因，因為像這一類的案件，只要是透過政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題，所以現在還有一些縣市還在推，我們其實都不希望他們再推。第二個，在這個過程當中，我們為什麼要主動移送，因為主動移送以後，只要掌握確切是違背當時的政策目的，我們就主動把它買回，以原價格的85折買回，買回以後全部當社會住宅，用這樣的方式來遏止這個問題。"],["許委員宇甄：署長，剛剛我提到目前就有3個人名下的合宜住宅被沒收，針對這個部分，國土署有沒有跟這些違法者看怎麼和解，買回房產？"],["吳署長欣修：有，我們透過律師在跟他們談，因為就是希望他們同意直接用85折賣，否則我們就會持續……"],["許委員宇甄：目前執行的進度怎麼樣？"],["吳署長欣修：我們目前已經收回兩戶了。"],["許委員宇甄：還有一戶就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["許委員宇甄：因為未來案件還很多嘛，可能這樣的狀況還很多。"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以都透過法律訴訟持續在進行。"],["許委員宇甄：好。對於你們以85折買回來的合宜住宅，您剛剛講未來是要做社會住宅？"],["吳署長欣修：對，就全部做社宅。"],["許委員宇甄：就是只租不售了？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，好，要不然的話，這樣其實都會有很多風險。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["許委員宇甄：另外就是說，我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛，請問一下，未來針對社會住宅的轉租、轉介，或者也有可能被濫用補貼的狀況，有沒有設下什麼防範機制？"],["吳署長欣修：如果是直接興建的部分，我們是透過在管理上每年都會做查核的方式，都會查核確認承租人是不是……"],["許委員宇甄：什麼樣的查核呢？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們都會做住戶拜訪，在林口的部分都會做住戶拜訪，實際了解他的狀況，看他是不是真的住在這裡。至於租金補貼跟包租代管的部分，我們都會透過資料的勾稽比對，像我們租金補貼到目前已經有兩百多戶是假補貼的，就是真領錢但是假補貼，這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對或是電話查詢，主動去找出這些問題，就是希望他們不要有浮濫申請或是用轉租的方式。"],["許委員宇甄：請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核？"],["吳署長欣修：一樣都有。"],["許委員宇甄：大概多久的時間？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們有一個專案辦公室，都會透過第一個是資料的比對，第二個是用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡，這樣的方式比較能夠防止。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，請部長跟署長針對這個部分再多加強，希望我們能夠把社會住宅留給真正需要的人。謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","跟委員會報告，因為今天有提案說明，比較晚開始詢答，到現在為止都還沒有休息，我們就休息3分鐘。","休息（11時41分）","繼續開會（11時46分）"],["主席：報告委員會，繼續開會。","向委員報告，我們中午不休息，開會到詢答結束為止。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}}