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493.154, \"end\": 493.174, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,936 --> 00:00:03,084\n好謝謝主席主席我們請數位部黃部長請部長\n\n2\n00:00:11,275 --> 00:00:33,789\n部長好部長我想今天我們討論的是這個自動安全管理法修法的問題那我想這個有一個條文我想跟這個部長來討論一下我想除了院版之外有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考包含說國務卿委員提的這個版本裡面的13條公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品把它入法\n\n3\n00:00:34,549 --> 00:00:55,783\n因為這個是本來就從你們這個13條從數位部訂定的這個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則而來我想這13條的來源在這邊就是從你們這個數位部訂定的這個規範只是因為現階段我想這現行對於這相關的特定廠商的特定品牌有這個限制是用所謂的法規命令\n\n4\n00:00:56,423 --> 00:01:15,315\n那是不是有機會把它提升到這個母法的程式那詳細的這個規定我再把它定於執法當中會比較妥適比如說今年二月的時候我想這個我們卓院長有提到說宣布這公共機關全面禁用Deep-seek這個AI來確保我們的國家自動安全但是\n\n5\n00:01:16,363 --> 00:01:42,289\n之所以要禁用公共機關禁用Deep-Seek的原因就是因為他們可能有擔心說這個很多資料會上傳給中共讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊那如果既然是這樣子那有這樣子的事情發生那是不是應該把我剛提到的以剛剛盧君委員那13條應該把它訂到法律的位階跟層次而不是只是純單純用這個命令來做你院本來有沒有辦法採納這個這樣的做法\n\n6\n00:01:45,750 --> 00:02:11,910\n我們就是把原來的行政命令變成立法放在法就是危害國家資產安全產品至於說它的定義因為這個產品的變化跟那個非常快我們沒辦法給到一個非常清楚的定義因為我們只能從審查跟檢驗跟最後的通報去做隨時的update如果一個產品而且現在有可能是稀產地也有可能這公司原來不屬於中國公司後來賣給中國公司\n\n7\n00:02:12,711 --> 00:02:33,368\n中國公司有太多可能變化所以沒有辦法定的很清楚說什麼樣叫不行但是我們是會隨時的去審查跟那個通報機制就是發現這個產品有問題我們馬上就通報然後就開始再由這個將根據這個治安法來禁用這些這些設備或產品部長當然就是說\n\n8\n00:02:34,469 --> 00:02:50,819\n產品不斷推陳出新啦所以是不是隨時要變動隨時更新那個清單那當然是用授權的那我現在要確認說像剛剛我提到這個第13我們葛國勛委提的那第13條他把這個公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國際自動安全產品的這個文字\n\n9\n00:02:52,321 --> 00:03:11,033\n明文的這個條文放進母法裡面原版現在有放進去嗎放了沒對報告委員就是說基本上我們Care是使用的因為採購採購這個東西就像講因為你買了一個公司原來這個公司不屬於中國公司就是說不能只看採購的公司因為公司有可能會\n\n10\n00:03:12,174 --> 00:03:31,553\n就是中資會入股所以我說採購最主要是後面的使用所以只要使用我們先定義我們先有個機制來定義什麼叫做來找出危害國家資本產品的是有哪些然後再去限制它的使用定義是執法啊對我來講定義是後面的事情嘛那我現在講的說\n\n11\n00:03:32,774 --> 00:03:51,749\n你們的條文裡面就是真正的院版條文最後出來了因為現在還在討論嘛那只是說院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的這個把他明文假設你說好採購沒有那下載安裝使用咧我們是使用跟下載跟安裝但是採購沒有在上面好那這樣有共識啦這樣OK院版有嗎\n\n12\n00:03:52,629 --> 00:04:09,174\n原版有使用而已那下載安裝呢你要使用前提要下載安裝啊你要前面就先阻止啦因為原版有使用下載跟那比如說比如這樣講以Deep-seek為例我們就舉具體案例Deep-seek你當然沒有採購它嘛但是\n\n13\n00:04:10,254 --> 00:04:33,108\n我們的就是公務機關不得使用也不得下載嘛那我就說你就是應該把這個所謂下載跟使用下載跟安裝本身就先放在魔法裡面那當後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例那個是當然你們隨時去滾動檢討嘛casebycase對啊好不好這個部分我提醒一下應該把它放到這個條文裡面要增加就是安裝跟下載這個部分再來提到這個\n\n14\n00:04:34,868 --> 00:04:48,504\n現行的條文裡面院版裡面的條文裡面有講到說第四條提升自動安全政府要提供資源整合民間及產業力量提升全民的自動安全意識所以這邊的重點在提升全民之安不是針對產業而已因為\n\n15\n00:04:50,626 --> 00:05:06,610\n如果按照現行法令我們看起來很像其實相關的法律都在從這個產業面來出手產業面來在關注產業面但是對於真正的全民我們剛剛提到全民的定義我們看這個數據你看詐騙的部分各自大約24%然後購物詐騙15%企業冒名13%還有我們國內發卡銀行詐欺的通報金額也是逐年在\n\n16\n00:05:13,203 --> 00:05:24,360\n整體比例是上升的狀況就比如說全民對於治安的意識好像不太足夠那當然你們把母法裡面訂的這一條說要主動來全民可是你從真正在執行面上\n\n17\n00:05:25,779 --> 00:05:45,987\n比較像是從這個企業從產業的角度在你們執行的時候但問題是從這個教育國中小高中教育等等的部分好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為那我不知道數位部隊這事情怎麼處理因為公司大家要可能為了公司的這個資產要保護都沒問題嘛\n\n18\n00:05:47,708 --> 00:06:02,304\n但問題是今天大家為什麼有這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易被騙到手那麼容易的在新的通訊軟體裡面自己把自己的個資提供出去那這就代表我們全民的資產意識就不足啊那你這個條文\n\n19\n00:06:04,186 --> 00:06:25,142\n第四條訂了這樣子的東西但後續的相關的做法裡面好像沒有特別提到這個事情部長就是我們那個原來就是在第四條有講說我們要做一個單是人才培育嘛對然後再來就是說我們會加強一些跟產學研的合作然後就用這個產學研合作跟國際交流然後再來就是對這個有一些這個規範\n\n20\n00:06:28,624 --> 00:06:40,455\n不過就是不管怎樣就是我們會從教育面從這個推動裡面再去加強全民對治安對部長我的意思就是這樣你們第四條的確寫了剛剛是1234嘛那你看1234我們講真的1234針對的基本上都是所謂專業人才\n\n21\n00:06:45,600 --> 00:07:12,577\n好針對產業界那我今天講的因為我們今天這個是要提升全民自動安全意識他的精神是在全民所以不是只有產業因為你這個專業人才培育啦然後產學合作啦國際交流多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討的什麼國際交流他也不會是專業人才像我以本席為例我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對資安的意識跟保護\n\n22\n00:07:13,658 --> 00:07:36,517\n因為在這個願滿條文裡面你們是沒有提到一般民眾的喔你們真的比較像是專業人才喔所以我要說在這個部分的話應該要去針對全民去做個提升不能只是針對專業部分而已啊部長我們這個委員的建議很好我們在我想我們在這邊在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識我們會有一些方案來協助包括一些宣導或是一些在利用\n\n23\n00:07:36,957 --> 00:07:58,460\n我們具體建議啦你們應該還要去找教育部啦教育部到底我們的教材裡面我們在平常的學校校園裡面或是說像我們的那個叫什麼那個地方叫社會局當然我們就內政部等等的各單位針對長照針對長輩很多的地方這部分都應該去做而不是只有\n\n24\n00:07:59,682 --> 00:08:13,174\n學不是只有專業人才就是學校從小啊以及我們長輩這邊他們可能對於這個科技更新而速度沒這麼快的部分應該有一處理因為其實被詐騙很多是這些人啊好不好我們會再看部長謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n936\t3084\t好 謝謝主席 主席我們請數位部黃部長請部長\n11275\t33789\t部長好部長我想今天我們討論的是這個自動安全管理法修法的問題那我想這個有一個條文我想跟這個部長來討論一下我想除了院版之外有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考包含說國務卿委員提的這個版本裡面的13條公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品把它入法\n34549\t55783\t因為這個是本來就從你們這個13條從數位部訂定的這個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則而來我想這13條的來源在這邊就是從你們這個數位部訂定的這個規範只是因為現階段我想這現行對於這相關的特定廠商的特定品牌有這個限制是用所謂的法規命令\n56423\t75315\t那是不是有機會把它提升到這個母法的程式那詳細的這個規定我再把它定於執法當中會比較妥適比如說今年二月的時候我想這個我們卓院長有提到說宣布這公共機關全面禁用Deep-seek這個AI來確保我們的國家自動安全但是\n76363\t102289\t之所以要禁用公共機關禁用Deep-Seek的原因就是因為他們可能有擔心說這個很多資料會上傳給中共讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊那如果既然是這樣子那有這樣子的事情發生那是不是應該把我剛提到的以剛剛盧君委員那13條應該把它訂到法律的位階跟層次而不是只是純單純用這個命令來做你院本來有沒有辦法採納這個這樣的做法\n105750\t131910\t我們就是把原來的行政命令變成立法 放在法就是危害國家資產安全產品至於說它的定義因為這個產品的變化跟那個非常快我們沒辦法給到一個非常清楚的定義因為我們只能從審查跟檢驗跟最後的通報去做隨時的update如果一個產品而且現在有可能是稀產地也有可能這公司原來不屬於中國公司後來賣給中國公司\n132711\t153368\t中國公司有太多可能變化所以沒有辦法定的很清楚說什麼樣叫不行但是我們是會隨時的去審查跟那個通報機制就是發現這個產品有問題我們馬上就通報然後就開始再由這個將根據這個治安法來禁用這些這些設備或產品部長當然就是說\n154469\t170819\t產品不斷推陳出新啦所以是不是隨時要變動隨時更新那個清單那當然是用授權的那我現在要確認說像剛剛我提到這個第13我們葛國勛委提的那第13條他把這個公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國際自動安全產品的這個文字\n172321\t191033\t明文的這個條文放進母法裡面原版現在有放進去嗎 放了沒對 報告委員就是說基本上我們Care是使用的因為採購採購這個東西就像講因為你買了一個公司原來這個公司不屬於中國公司就是說不能只看採購的公司因為公司有可能會\n192174\t211553\t就是中資會入股所以我說採購最主要是後面的使用所以只要使用我們先定義我們先有個機制來定義什麼叫做來找出危害國家資本產品的是有哪些然後再去限制它的使用定義是執法啊對我來講定義是後面的事情嘛那我現在講的說\n212774\t231749\t你們的條文裡面就是真正的院版條文最後出來了因為現在還在討論嘛那只是說院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的這個把他明文假設你說好採購沒有那下載安裝使用咧我們是使用跟下載跟安裝但是採購沒有在上面好那這樣有共識啦這樣OK院版有嗎\n232629\t249174\t原版有使用而已那下載安裝呢你要使用前提要下載安裝啊你要前面就先阻止啦因為原版有使用下載跟那比如說比如這樣講以Deep-seek為例我們就舉具體案例Deep-seek你當然沒有採購它嘛但是\n250254\t273108\t我們的就是公務機關不得使用也不得下載嘛那我就說你就是應該把這個所謂下載跟使用下載跟安裝本身就先放在魔法裡面那當後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例那個是當然你們隨時去滾動檢討嘛case by case對啊好不好這個部分我提醒一下應該把它放到這個條文裡面要增加就是安裝跟下載這個部分再來提到這個\n274868\t288504\t現行的條文裡面院版裡面的條文裡面有講到說第四條提升自動安全政府要提供資源整合民間及產業力量提升全民的自動安全意識所以這邊的重點在提升全民之安不是針對產業而已因為\n290626\t306610\t如果按照現行法令我們看起來很像其實相關的法律都在從這個產業面來出手產業面來在關注產業面但是對於真正的全民我們剛剛提到全民的定義我們看這個數據你看詐騙的部分各自大約24%然後購物詐騙15% 企業冒名13%還有我們國內發卡銀行詐欺的通報金額也是逐年在\n313203\t324360\t整體比例是上升的狀況就比如說全民對於治安的意識好像不太足夠那當然你們把母法裡面訂的這一條說要主動來全民可是你從真正在執行面上\n325779\t345987\t比較像是從這個企業 從產業的角度在你們執行的時候但問題是從這個教育 國中小高中教育等等的部分好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為那我不知道數位部隊這事情怎麼處理因為公司大家要可能為了公司的這個資產要保護都沒問題嘛\n347708\t362304\t但問題是今天大家為什麼有這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易被騙到手那麼容易的在新的通訊軟體裡面自己把自己的個資提供出去那這就代表我們全民的資產意識就不足啊那你這個條文\n364186\t385142\t第四條訂了這樣子的東西但後續的相關的做法裡面好像沒有特別提到這個事情部長就是我們那個原來就是在第四條有講說我們要做一個單是人才培育嘛對然後再來就是說我們會加強一些跟產學研的合作然後就用這個產學研合作跟國際交流然後再來就是對這個有一些這個規範\n388624\t400455\t不過就是不管怎樣就是我們會從教育面從這個推動裡面再去加強全民對治安對部長我的意思就是這樣你們第四條的確寫了剛剛是1234嘛那你看1234我們講真的1234針對的基本上都是所謂專業人才\n405600\t432577\t好 針對產業界那我今天講的因為我們今天這個是要提升全民自動安全意識他的精神是在全民所以不是只有產業因為你這個專業人才培育啦然後產學合作啦 國際交流多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討的什麼國際交流他也不會是專業人才像我以本席為例我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對資安的意識跟保護\n433658\t456517\t因為在這個願滿條文裡面你們是沒有提到一般民眾的喔你們真的比較像是專業人才喔所以我要說在這個部分的話應該要去針對全民去做個提升不能只是針對專業部分而已啊部長我們這個委員的建議很好我們在我想我們在這邊在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識我們會有一些方案來協助包括一些宣導或是一些在利用\n456957\t478460\t我們具體建議啦 你們應該還要去找教育部啦教育部到底我們的教材裡面 我們在平常的學校 校園裡面或是說像我們的那個叫什麼那個地方叫社會局當然我們就內政部等等的各單位針對長照 針對長輩很多的地方這部分都應該去做 而不是只有\n479682\t493174\t學不是只有專業人才就是學校從小啊以及我們長輩這邊他們可能對於這個科技更新而速度沒這麼快的部分應該有一處理因為其實被詐騙很多是這些人啊好不好我們會再看部長謝謝主席謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們請數位部黃部長請部長\n部長好部長我想今天我們討論的是這個自動安全管理法修法的問題那我想這個有一個條文我想跟這個部長來討論一下我想除了院版之外有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考包含說國務卿委員提的這個版本裡面的13條公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品把它入法\n因為這個是本來就從你們這個13條從數位部訂定的這個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則而來我想這13條的來源在這邊就是從你們這個數位部訂定的這個規範只是因為現階段我想這現行對於這相關的特定廠商的特定品牌有這個限制是用所謂的法規命令\n那是不是有機會把它提升到這個母法的程式那詳細的這個規定我再把它定於執法當中會比較妥適比如說今年二月的時候我想這個我們卓院長有提到說宣布這公共機關全面禁用Deep-seek這個AI來確保我們的國家自動安全但是\n之所以要禁用公共機關禁用Deep-Seek的原因就是因為他們可能有擔心說這個很多資料會上傳給中共讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊那如果既然是這樣子那有這樣子的事情發生那是不是應該把我剛提到的以剛剛盧君委員那13條應該把它訂到法律的位階跟層次而不是只是純單純用這個命令來做你院本來有沒有辦法採納這個這樣的做法\n我們就是把原來的行政命令變成立法 放在法就是危害國家資產安全產品至於說它的定義因為這個產品的變化跟那個非常快我們沒辦法給到一個非常清楚的定義因為我們只能從審查跟檢驗跟最後的通報去做隨時的update如果一個產品而且現在有可能是稀產地也有可能這公司原來不屬於中國公司後來賣給中國公司\n中國公司有太多可能變化所以沒有辦法定的很清楚說什麼樣叫不行但是我們是會隨時的去審查跟那個通報機制就是發現這個產品有問題我們馬上就通報然後就開始再由這個將根據這個治安法來禁用這些這些設備或產品部長當然就是說\n產品不斷推陳出新啦所以是不是隨時要變動隨時更新那個清單那當然是用授權的那我現在要確認說像剛剛我提到這個第13我們葛國勛委提的那第13條他把這個公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國際自動安全產品的這個文字\n明文的這個條文放進母法裡面原版現在有放進去嗎 放了沒對 報告委員就是說基本上我們Care是使用的因為採購採購這個東西就像講因為你買了一個公司原來這個公司不屬於中國公司就是說不能只看採購的公司因為公司有可能會\n就是中資會入股所以我說採購最主要是後面的使用所以只要使用我們先定義我們先有個機制來定義什麼叫做來找出危害國家資本產品的是有哪些然後再去限制它的使用定義是執法啊對我來講定義是後面的事情嘛那我現在講的說\n你們的條文裡面就是真正的院版條文最後出來了因為現在還在討論嘛那只是說院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的這個把他明文假設你說好採購沒有那下載安裝使用咧我們是使用跟下載跟安裝但是採購沒有在上面好那這樣有共識啦這樣OK院版有嗎\n原版有使用而已那下載安裝呢你要使用前提要下載安裝啊你要前面就先阻止啦因為原版有使用下載跟那比如說比如這樣講以Deep-seek為例我們就舉具體案例Deep-seek你當然沒有採購它嘛但是\n我們的就是公務機關不得使用也不得下載嘛那我就說你就是應該把這個所謂下載跟使用下載跟安裝本身就先放在魔法裡面那當後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例那個是當然你們隨時去滾動檢討嘛case by case對啊好不好這個部分我提醒一下應該把它放到這個條文裡面要增加就是安裝跟下載這個部分再來提到這個\n現行的條文裡面院版裡面的條文裡面有講到說第四條提升自動安全政府要提供資源整合民間及產業力量提升全民的自動安全意識所以這邊的重點在提升全民之安不是針對產業而已因為\n如果按照現行法令我們看起來很像其實相關的法律都在從這個產業面來出手產業面來在關注產業面但是對於真正的全民我們剛剛提到全民的定義我們看這個數據你看詐騙的部分各自大約24%然後購物詐騙15% 企業冒名13%還有我們國內發卡銀行詐欺的通報金額也是逐年在\n整體比例是上升的狀況就比如說全民對於治安的意識好像不太足夠那當然你們把母法裡面訂的這一條說要主動來全民可是你從真正在執行面上\n比較像是從這個企業 從產業的角度在你們執行的時候但問題是從這個教育 國中小高中教育等等的部分好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為那我不知道數位部隊這事情怎麼處理因為公司大家要可能為了公司的這個資產要保護都沒問題嘛\n但問題是今天大家為什麼有這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易被騙到手那麼容易的在新的通訊軟體裡面自己把自己的個資提供出去那這就代表我們全民的資產意識就不足啊那你這個條文\n第四條訂了這樣子的東西但後續的相關的做法裡面好像沒有特別提到這個事情部長就是我們那個原來就是在第四條有講說我們要做一個單是人才培育嘛對然後再來就是說我們會加強一些跟產學研的合作然後就用這個產學研合作跟國際交流然後再來就是對這個有一些這個規範\n不過就是不管怎樣就是我們會從教育面從這個推動裡面再去加強全民對治安對部長我的意思就是這樣你們第四條的確寫了剛剛是1234嘛那你看1234我們講真的1234針對的基本上都是所謂專業人才\n好 針對產業界那我今天講的因為我們今天這個是要提升全民自動安全意識他的精神是在全民所以不是只有產業因為你這個專業人才培育啦然後產學合作啦 國際交流多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討的什麼國際交流他也不會是專業人才像我以本席為例我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對資安的意識跟保護\n因為在這個願滿條文裡面你們是沒有提到一般民眾的喔你們真的比較像是專業人才喔所以我要說在這個部分的話應該要去針對全民去做個提升不能只是針對專業部分而已啊部長我們這個委員的建議很好我們在我想我們在這邊在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識我們會有一些方案來協助包括一些宣導或是一些在利用\n我們具體建議啦 你們應該還要去找教育部啦教育部到底我們的教材裡面 我們在平常的學校 校園裡面或是說像我們的那個叫什麼那個地方叫社會局當然我們就內政部等等的各單位針對長照 針對長輩很多的地方這部分都應該去做 而不是只有\n學不是只有專業人才就是學校從小啊以及我們長輩這邊他們可能對於這個科技更新而速度沒這麼快的部分應該有一處理因為其實被詐騙很多是這些人啊好不好我們會再看部長謝謝主席謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.936 --> 00:03.084\n好謝謝主席主席我們請數位部黃部長請部長\n\n00:11.275 --> 00:33.789\n部長好部長我想今天我們討論的是這個自動安全管理法修法的問題那我想這個有一個條文我想跟這個部長來討論一下我想除了院版之外有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考包含說國務卿委員提的這個版本裡面的13條公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品把它入法\n\n00:34.549 --> 00:55.783\n因為這個是本來就從你們這個13條從數位部訂定的這個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則而來我想這13條的來源在這邊就是從你們這個數位部訂定的這個規範只是因為現階段我想這現行對於這相關的特定廠商的特定品牌有這個限制是用所謂的法規命令\n\n00:56.423 --> 01:15.315\n那是不是有機會把它提升到這個母法的程式那詳細的這個規定我再把它定於執法當中會比較妥適比如說今年二月的時候我想這個我們卓院長有提到說宣布這公共機關全面禁用Deep-seek這個AI來確保我們的國家自動安全但是\n\n01:16.363 --> 01:42.289\n之所以要禁用公共機關禁用Deep-Seek的原因就是因為他們可能有擔心說這個很多資料會上傳給中共讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊那如果既然是這樣子那有這樣子的事情發生那是不是應該把我剛提到的以剛剛盧君委員那13條應該把它訂到法律的位階跟層次而不是只是純單純用這個命令來做你院本來有沒有辦法採納這個這樣的做法\n\n01:45.750 --> 02:11.910\n我們就是把原來的行政命令變成立法放在法就是危害國家資產安全產品至於說它的定義因為這個產品的變化跟那個非常快我們沒辦法給到一個非常清楚的定義因為我們只能從審查跟檢驗跟最後的通報去做隨時的update如果一個產品而且現在有可能是稀產地也有可能這公司原來不屬於中國公司後來賣給中國公司\n\n02:12.711 --> 02:33.368\n中國公司有太多可能變化所以沒有辦法定的很清楚說什麼樣叫不行但是我們是會隨時的去審查跟那個通報機制就是發現這個產品有問題我們馬上就通報然後就開始再由這個將根據這個治安法來禁用這些這些設備或產品部長當然就是說\n\n02:34.469 --> 02:50.819\n產品不斷推陳出新啦所以是不是隨時要變動隨時更新那個清單那當然是用授權的那我現在要確認說像剛剛我提到這個第13我們葛國勛委提的那第13條他把這個公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國際自動安全產品的這個文字\n\n02:52.321 --> 03:11.033\n明文的這個條文放進母法裡面原版現在有放進去嗎放了沒對報告委員就是說基本上我們Care是使用的因為採購採購這個東西就像講因為你買了一個公司原來這個公司不屬於中國公司就是說不能只看採購的公司因為公司有可能會\n\n03:12.174 --> 03:31.553\n就是中資會入股所以我說採購最主要是後面的使用所以只要使用我們先定義我們先有個機制來定義什麼叫做來找出危害國家資本產品的是有哪些然後再去限制它的使用定義是執法啊對我來講定義是後面的事情嘛那我現在講的說\n\n03:32.774 --> 03:51.749\n你們的條文裡面就是真正的院版條文最後出來了因為現在還在討論嘛那只是說院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的這個把他明文假設你說好採購沒有那下載安裝使用咧我們是使用跟下載跟安裝但是採購沒有在上面好那這樣有共識啦這樣OK院版有嗎\n\n03:52.629 --> 04:09.174\n原版有使用而已那下載安裝呢你要使用前提要下載安裝啊你要前面就先阻止啦因為原版有使用下載跟那比如說比如這樣講以Deep-seek為例我們就舉具體案例Deep-seek你當然沒有採購它嘛但是\n\n04:10.254 --> 04:33.108\n我們的就是公務機關不得使用也不得下載嘛那我就說你就是應該把這個所謂下載跟使用下載跟安裝本身就先放在魔法裡面那當後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例那個是當然你們隨時去滾動檢討嘛casebycase對啊好不好這個部分我提醒一下應該把它放到這個條文裡面要增加就是安裝跟下載這個部分再來提到這個\n\n04:34.868 --> 04:48.504\n現行的條文裡面院版裡面的條文裡面有講到說第四條提升自動安全政府要提供資源整合民間及產業力量提升全民的自動安全意識所以這邊的重點在提升全民之安不是針對產業而已因為\n\n04:50.626 --> 05:06.610\n如果按照現行法令我們看起來很像其實相關的法律都在從這個產業面來出手產業面來在關注產業面但是對於真正的全民我們剛剛提到全民的定義我們看這個數據你看詐騙的部分各自大約24%然後購物詐騙15%企業冒名13%還有我們國內發卡銀行詐欺的通報金額也是逐年在\n\n05:13.203 --> 05:24.360\n整體比例是上升的狀況就比如說全民對於治安的意識好像不太足夠那當然你們把母法裡面訂的這一條說要主動來全民可是你從真正在執行面上\n\n05:25.779 --> 05:45.987\n比較像是從這個企業從產業的角度在你們執行的時候但問題是從這個教育國中小高中教育等等的部分好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為那我不知道數位部隊這事情怎麼處理因為公司大家要可能為了公司的這個資產要保護都沒問題嘛\n\n05:47.708 --> 06:02.304\n但問題是今天大家為什麼有這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易被騙到手那麼容易的在新的通訊軟體裡面自己把自己的個資提供出去那這就代表我們全民的資產意識就不足啊那你這個條文\n\n06:04.186 --> 06:25.142\n第四條訂了這樣子的東西但後續的相關的做法裡面好像沒有特別提到這個事情部長就是我們那個原來就是在第四條有講說我們要做一個單是人才培育嘛對然後再來就是說我們會加強一些跟產學研的合作然後就用這個產學研合作跟國際交流然後再來就是對這個有一些這個規範\n\n06:28.624 --> 06:40.455\n不過就是不管怎樣就是我們會從教育面從這個推動裡面再去加強全民對治安對部長我的意思就是這樣你們第四條的確寫了剛剛是1234嘛那你看1234我們講真的1234針對的基本上都是所謂專業人才\n\n06:45.600 --> 07:12.577\n好針對產業界那我今天講的因為我們今天這個是要提升全民自動安全意識他的精神是在全民所以不是只有產業因為你這個專業人才培育啦然後產學合作啦國際交流多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討的什麼國際交流他也不會是專業人才像我以本席為例我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對資安的意識跟保護\n\n07:13.658 --> 07:36.517\n因為在這個願滿條文裡面你們是沒有提到一般民眾的喔你們真的比較像是專業人才喔所以我要說在這個部分的話應該要去針對全民去做個提升不能只是針對專業部分而已啊部長我們這個委員的建議很好我們在我想我們在這邊在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識我們會有一些方案來協助包括一些宣導或是一些在利用\n\n07:36.957 --> 07:58.460\n我們具體建議啦你們應該還要去找教育部啦教育部到底我們的教材裡面我們在平常的學校校園裡面或是說像我們的那個叫什麼那個地方叫社會局當然我們就內政部等等的各單位針對長照針對長輩很多的地方這部分都應該去做而不是只有\n\n07:59.682 --> 08:13.174\n學不是只有專業人才就是學校從小啊以及我們長輩這邊他們可能對於這個科技更新而速度沒這麼快的部分應該有一處理因為其實被詐騙很多是這些人啊好不好我們會再看部長謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.936,"end":3.084,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們請數位部黃部長請部長"},{"start":11.275,"end":33.789,"text":"部長好部長我想今天我們討論的是這個自動安全管理法修法的問題那我想這個有一個條文我想跟這個部長來討論一下我想除了院版之外有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考包含說國務卿委員提的這個版本裡面的13條公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品把它入法"},{"start":34.549,"end":55.783,"text":"因為這個是本來就從你們這個13條從數位部訂定的這個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則而來我想這13條的來源在這邊就是從你們這個數位部訂定的這個規範只是因為現階段我想這現行對於這相關的特定廠商的特定品牌有這個限制是用所謂的法規命令"},{"start":56.423,"end":75.315,"text":"那是不是有機會把它提升到這個母法的程式那詳細的這個規定我再把它定於執法當中會比較妥適比如說今年二月的時候我想這個我們卓院長有提到說宣布這公共機關全面禁用Deep-seek這個AI來確保我們的國家自動安全但是"},{"start":76.363,"end":102.289,"text":"之所以要禁用公共機關禁用Deep-Seek的原因就是因為他們可能有擔心說這個很多資料會上傳給中共讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊那如果既然是這樣子那有這樣子的事情發生那是不是應該把我剛提到的以剛剛盧君委員那13條應該把它訂到法律的位階跟層次而不是只是純單純用這個命令來做你院本來有沒有辦法採納這個這樣的做法"},{"start":105.75,"end":131.91,"text":"我們就是把原來的行政命令變成立法 放在法就是危害國家資產安全產品至於說它的定義因為這個產品的變化跟那個非常快我們沒辦法給到一個非常清楚的定義因為我們只能從審查跟檢驗跟最後的通報去做隨時的update如果一個產品而且現在有可能是稀產地也有可能這公司原來不屬於中國公司後來賣給中國公司"},{"start":132.711,"end":153.368,"text":"中國公司有太多可能變化所以沒有辦法定的很清楚說什麼樣叫不行但是我們是會隨時的去審查跟那個通報機制就是發現這個產品有問題我們馬上就通報然後就開始再由這個將根據這個治安法來禁用這些這些設備或產品部長當然就是說"},{"start":154.469,"end":170.819,"text":"產品不斷推陳出新啦所以是不是隨時要變動隨時更新那個清單那當然是用授權的那我現在要確認說像剛剛我提到這個第13我們葛國勛委提的那第13條他把這個公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國際自動安全產品的這個文字"},{"start":172.321,"end":191.033,"text":"明文的這個條文放進母法裡面原版現在有放進去嗎 放了沒對 報告委員就是說基本上我們Care是使用的因為採購採購這個東西就像講因為你買了一個公司原來這個公司不屬於中國公司就是說不能只看採購的公司因為公司有可能會"},{"start":192.174,"end":211.553,"text":"就是中資會入股所以我說採購最主要是後面的使用所以只要使用我們先定義我們先有個機制來定義什麼叫做來找出危害國家資本產品的是有哪些然後再去限制它的使用定義是執法啊對我來講定義是後面的事情嘛那我現在講的說"},{"start":212.774,"end":231.749,"text":"你們的條文裡面就是真正的院版條文最後出來了因為現在還在討論嘛那只是說院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的這個把他明文假設你說好採購沒有那下載安裝使用咧我們是使用跟下載跟安裝但是採購沒有在上面好那這樣有共識啦這樣OK院版有嗎"},{"start":232.629,"end":249.174,"text":"原版有使用而已那下載安裝呢你要使用前提要下載安裝啊你要前面就先阻止啦因為原版有使用下載跟那比如說比如這樣講以Deep-seek為例我們就舉具體案例Deep-seek你當然沒有採購它嘛但是"},{"start":250.254,"end":273.108,"text":"我們的就是公務機關不得使用也不得下載嘛那我就說你就是應該把這個所謂下載跟使用下載跟安裝本身就先放在魔法裡面那當後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例那個是當然你們隨時去滾動檢討嘛case by case對啊好不好這個部分我提醒一下應該把它放到這個條文裡面要增加就是安裝跟下載這個部分再來提到這個"},{"start":274.868,"end":288.504,"text":"現行的條文裡面院版裡面的條文裡面有講到說第四條提升自動安全政府要提供資源整合民間及產業力量提升全民的自動安全意識所以這邊的重點在提升全民之安不是針對產業而已因為"},{"start":290.626,"end":306.61,"text":"如果按照現行法令我們看起來很像其實相關的法律都在從這個產業面來出手產業面來在關注產業面但是對於真正的全民我們剛剛提到全民的定義我們看這個數據你看詐騙的部分各自大約24%然後購物詐騙15% 企業冒名13%還有我們國內發卡銀行詐欺的通報金額也是逐年在"},{"start":313.203,"end":324.36,"text":"整體比例是上升的狀況就比如說全民對於治安的意識好像不太足夠那當然你們把母法裡面訂的這一條說要主動來全民可是你從真正在執行面上"},{"start":325.779,"end":345.987,"text":"比較像是從這個企業 從產業的角度在你們執行的時候但問題是從這個教育 國中小高中教育等等的部分好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為那我不知道數位部隊這事情怎麼處理因為公司大家要可能為了公司的這個資產要保護都沒問題嘛"},{"start":347.708,"end":362.304,"text":"但問題是今天大家為什麼有這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易被騙到手那麼容易的在新的通訊軟體裡面自己把自己的個資提供出去那這就代表我們全民的資產意識就不足啊那你這個條文"},{"start":364.186,"end":385.142,"text":"第四條訂了這樣子的東西但後續的相關的做法裡面好像沒有特別提到這個事情部長就是我們那個原來就是在第四條有講說我們要做一個單是人才培育嘛對然後再來就是說我們會加強一些跟產學研的合作然後就用這個產學研合作跟國際交流然後再來就是對這個有一些這個規範"},{"start":388.624,"end":400.455,"text":"不過就是不管怎樣就是我們會從教育面從這個推動裡面再去加強全民對治安對部長我的意思就是這樣你們第四條的確寫了剛剛是1234嘛那你看1234我們講真的1234針對的基本上都是所謂專業人才"},{"start":405.6,"end":432.577,"text":"好 針對產業界那我今天講的因為我們今天這個是要提升全民自動安全意識他的精神是在全民所以不是只有產業因為你這個專業人才培育啦然後產學合作啦 國際交流多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討的什麼國際交流他也不會是專業人才像我以本席為例我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對資安的意識跟保護"},{"start":433.658,"end":456.517,"text":"因為在這個願滿條文裡面你們是沒有提到一般民眾的喔你們真的比較像是專業人才喔所以我要說在這個部分的話應該要去針對全民去做個提升不能只是針對專業部分而已啊部長我們這個委員的建議很好我們在我想我們在這邊在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識我們會有一些方案來協助包括一些宣導或是一些在利用"},{"start":456.957,"end":478.46,"text":"我們具體建議啦 你們應該還要去找教育部啦教育部到底我們的教材裡面 我們在平常的學校 校園裡面或是說像我們的那個叫什麼那個地方叫社會局當然我們就內政部等等的各單位針對長照 針對長輩很多的地方這部分都應該去做 而不是只有"},{"start":479.682,"end":493.174,"text":"學不是只有專業人才就是學校從小啊以及我們長輩這邊他們可能對於這個科技更新而速度沒這麼快的部分應該有一處理因為其實被詐騙很多是這些人啊好不好我們會再看部長謝謝主席謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時20分）謝謝主席。主席，請數位部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，今天我們討論的是資通安全管理法的修法問題，有一些條文我想跟部長討論一下，除了院版之外，有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考，包含葛如鈞委員所提版本的第十三條，將「公務機關不得採購、下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品」入法，這第十三條是從數位部訂定的「各機關對危害國家資通安全產品限制使用原則」而來，第十三條的來源在這邊，就是從數位部所訂定的規範而來，只是現階段對於相關特定廠商的特定品牌有所限制是用所謂的法規命令，是不是有機會把它提升到母法的層次？詳細的規定再把它訂定於子法當中會比較妥適。比如今年2月的時候，卓院長有提到已宣布公務機關全面禁用DeepSeek AI以確保國家資通安全，之所以公務機關禁用DeepSeek的原因，是因為他們可能擔心很多資料會上傳給中共，讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊。既然有這樣子的事情發生，是不是應該把我剛剛提到的葛如鈞委員所提的第十三條訂定到法律的位階跟層次？而不是只單純用命令來做，院版有沒有辦法採納這樣的作法？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們就是把原來的行政命令變成法，就是危害國家資通安全產品，至於它的定義，因為產品變化非常快，我們沒辦法給予一個非常清楚的定義，我們只能從審查、檢驗到最後的通報去做隨時的update，如果一個產品……而且現在有可能是洗產地，也有可能這個公司原來不屬於中國公司，後來賣給中國公司，有太多可能的變化，所以沒有辦法訂定得很清楚說什麼樣是不行，但是我們會隨時去審查，也有通報機制，就是發現這個產品有問題，我們馬上就通報，然後就可以根據資安法來禁用這些設備或產品。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，產品不斷推陳出新，所以隨時變動、隨時更新那個清單當然是用授權的，只是我現在要確認的是，像剛剛我提到的葛如鈞委員所提的第十三條，他將「公務機關不得採購、下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品」的文字明文地放進母法裡面，院版現在有放進去嗎？放了沒？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，基本上我們care的是使用，採購這部分就像我剛才講的，因為這個公司不確定是否屬於中國公司，所以不能只看採購，因為公司有可能中資會入股，因此我認為最主要的是後面的使用，只要使用部分我們先定義，先有個機制來找出危害國家資通安全產品有哪些，然後再去限制它的使用。"],["黃委員健豪：定義是子法啊！定義是後面的事情，而我現在講的是，在你們的條文裡面……因為現在還在討論，那最後院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的？你說採購沒有，那下載、安裝、使用呢？"],["黃部長彥男：我們是使用、下載及安裝，但是採購沒有在上面。"],["黃委員健豪：好，這樣有共識，這樣OK！院版有嗎？"],["蔡署長福隆：院版有使用。"],["黃部長彥男：院版有使用。"],["黃委員健豪：有使用而已，那下載、安裝呢？使用的前提是要下載、安裝啊！要在前面就先阻止。"],["黃部長彥男：院版有使用、下載及安裝。"],["黃委員健豪：我們就舉具體案例DeepSeek，你當然沒有採購它，但是我們的公務機關是不得使用也不得下載，所以我的意思是你應該把下載跟安裝先放在母法裡面，後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例，那當然是你們隨時去滾動檢討的嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：case by case。"],["黃委員健豪：對，好不好？這個部分我提醒一下，應該把它放到這個條文裡面，要增加安裝跟下載的部分。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，現行的條文裡面，院版條文第四條提到「為提升資通安全，政府應提供資源，整合民間及產業力量，提升全民資通安全意識」，這邊的重點在提升全民資安，不是針對產業而已，如果按照現行法令，我們看起來相關的法令都在關注產業面，但是對於真正的全民，我們剛剛提到全民的定義，我們看那個數據，詐騙手法部分，個資盜用24%、購物詐騙15%、企業冒名13%，以及國內發卡銀行詐欺通報金額的整體比例是上升的狀況，這表示全民對於資安的意識好像不太足夠。當然你們在母法裡面訂定了這一條說要著重在全民，可是你們在真正的執行面上，比較像是從企業、產業的角度來看，問題是國中小、高中教育等等的部分，好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為，我不知道數位部對這個事情怎麼處理，因為大家可能為了要保護公司的資產，那都沒問題，但問題是現今為什麼這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易地被騙到手？那麼容易地在新的通訊軟體裡面把自己的個資提供出去？這就代表我們全民的資安意識不足啊！你們在第四條訂定了這樣子的條文，但後續相關的作法好像沒有特別提到這個事情耶！部長。"],["黃部長彥男：我們在第四條有講到我們要做人才培育，然後我們會加強跟產、學、研的合作，最後再用產、學、研的合作來跟國際交流，再來是對一些的規範……不管怎樣，我們會從教育面、從推動面再去加強全民的資安意識。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我的意思是這樣，你們第四條的確寫了，剛剛那是一、二、三、四嘛！我們講真的，一、二、三、四基本上針對的都是所謂的專業人才、針對產業界，而我今天講的，因為這個是要提升全民資通安全意識，它的精神在全民，所以不是只有產業，因為你提到專業人才培育，然後產學合作、國際交流，但多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討或國際交流，他們也不會是專業人才，以本席為例，我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛！但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對資安的意識跟保護，因為在院版條文裡面，你們是沒有提到一般民眾，你們提到的真的比較像是專業人才。所以我要說的是，關於這個部分，應該針對全民去做提升，不能只是針對專業部分而已，部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員的建議很好，在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識的部分，我們會有些方案來協助，包括一些宣導或是一些再利用……"],["黃委員健豪：我們具體建議，你們應該還要去找教育部，教育部到底……"],["黃部長彥男：我們會宣導，然後……"],["黃委員健豪：在教材裡面、在校園裡面，或者地方的社會局，又或者內政部等等各單位，針對長照、針對長輩很多的地方……"],["黃部長彥男：我們會去宣導。"],["黃委員健豪：這部分都應該去做，而不是只有專業人才，也就是從學校、從小，以及長輩的部分，他們可能對於科技更新的速度沒有這麼快，你們應該也要去處理，因為其實被詐騙的有很多是這些人，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員建議，我們會再看……"],["黃委員健豪：部長謝謝、主席謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}}