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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T12:05:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T12:16:37+08:00","duration":656,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160668","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160668","tool":"pyannote","id":"160668-pyannote"},"job_id":"47tms55O7LiIXqaA","queued_at":"2025-04-24 13:12:57","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2025-04-24 13:12:57","msg":"downloading 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100.837, \"end\": 101.137, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 101.137, \"end\": 102.919, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 102.919, \"end\": 103.019, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"州\", \"start\": 103.019, \"end\": 103.179, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 103.179, \"end\": 103.439, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"宅\", \"start\": 103.439, \"end\": 103.579, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 103.579, \"end\": 103.899, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 103.899, \"end\": 104.48, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 104.48, \"end\": 104.58, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 104.58, \"end\": 104.8, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 104.8, \"end\": 104.94, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 104.94, \"end\": 105.22, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 105.22, \"end\": 105.68, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 105.68, \"end\": 106.121, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"抓\", \"start\": 106.121, \"end\": 106.341, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 106.341, \"end\": 106.701, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 106.701, \"end\": 106.801, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 106.801, \"end\": 106.981, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 106.981, \"end\": 107.201, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 107.201, \"end\": 108.022, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 108.022, \"end\": 108.342, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 108.342, \"end\": 108.482, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 108.482, \"end\": 108.642, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 108.642, \"end\": 108.662, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 110.163, \"end\": 139.535, \"text\": \"對啊 那所以這個不知情的人還以為說這福祉合一宅是民進黨執政的時候做的因為我們很快觀察出一定會有這個問題出來因為那時候爆發很多用這個債權去法拍的我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了所以我們主動從這個法拍的資料裡面去找出可能出現的問題主動移送給檢方來偵辦那到目前為止有三四五件已經在法院已經在審理當中\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 110.163, \"end\": 110.703, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 110.703, \"end\": 110.863, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 110.863, \"end\": 111.003, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 111.003, \"end\": 111.504, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 111.504, \"end\": 111.644, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 111.644, \"end\": 111.784, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 111.784, \"end\": 111.904, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 111.904, \"end\": 112.244, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": 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\"對啊那所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子我們現在民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子是好 那我再問一下那個因為住宅法我也有提案來修法我是提案這個第四條這個修改這個第二項就是說我把這一個育幼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 140.035, \"end\": 140.516, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 140.516, \"end\": 140.676, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 140.676, \"end\": 140.856, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 140.856, \"end\": 140.976, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 140.976, \"end\": 141.257, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 141.257, \"end\": 141.497, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 141.497, \"end\": 141.657, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 141.657, \"end\": 141.757, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"留\", \"start\": 141.757, \"end\": 141.897, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 141.897, \"end\": 142.458, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"爛\"}, {\"word\": \"攤\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 142.458, \"end\": 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653.033, \"end\": 653.174, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 653.174, \"end\": 653.294, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 653.294, \"end\": 653.314, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"崑\"}, {\"word\": \"禎\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:08,002\n謝謝主席我們請這一個政部長還有國土署我們吳署長請問住宅法的問題一定問住宅法\n\n2\n00:00:15,888 --> 00:00:36,436\n因為我們今天在講住宅法的修法來我先請教一下我剛有聽到國民黨的委員在提到說這個福州合一宅在我們新北市板橋那裡然後福州合一宅他說現在是什麼樂透宅買到就賺到然後好像一副是民進黨政府做的我請教一下吳署長這個福州合一宅是誰哪個總統哪一個內政部長哪一個署長做的\n\n3\n00:00:40,317 --> 00:00:56,978\n是在馬總統的任內馬總統任內我記得在2010年那時候他們提出了所謂的這個什麼合一住宅的政策所以我們在我們為什麼會有社會住宅就是不可以再賣了就是爆發弊案嘛我還記得那時候的雲建署的署長\n\n4\n00:00:58,199 --> 00:01:26,729\n葉士文爆發弊案收賄等等之類的後來才改成說我們這個社會住宅就是只租不賣是然後當時候的這個馬英九政府他們是這個合一宅是可以買賣的所以我聽過了避鎖期但是那時候就是避鎖期我記得就是用債權的方式來躲避這個避鎖期的這個問題那是避鎖期之前有這一個假債權真買賣的這個方式那福州合一宅避鎖期\n\n5\n00:01:28,089 --> 00:01:48,662\n今年好像上半年就結束了它有分五年十年的那到今年是十年已經結束了已經結束了是那所以是民進黨政府在收這個爛攤子沒錯所以我聽到說國民黨委員講說這個福州合約宅的這麼多問題而且是我們主動去抓出這一些問題然後主動移送給檢方\n\n6\n00:01:50,163 --> 00:02:19,535\n對啊那所以這個不知情的人還以為說這福祉合一宅是民進黨執政的時候做的因為我們很快觀察出一定會有這個問題出來因為那時候爆發很多用這個債權去法拍的我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了所以我們主動從這個法拍的資料裡面去找出可能出現的問題主動移送給檢方來偵辦那到目前為止有三四五件已經在法院已經在審理當中\n\n7\n00:02:20,035 --> 00:02:36,273\n對啊那所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子我們現在民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子是好那我再問一下那個因為住宅法我也有提案來修法我是提案這個第四條這個修改這個第二項就是說我把這一個育幼\n\n8\n00:02:36,853 --> 00:02:58,784\n這個未成年身心障礙者一人以上把他納進去因為我們現在的這個住宅法第四條它裡面有一項是身心障礙但是呢如果是這個家中有身心障礙的未成年人他不能去申請嘛因為未成年但是呢他的父母也不能去幫他申請因為他也不符合資格\n\n9\n00:02:59,604 --> 00:03:24,026\n那所以說我才會建議說在這個修改住宅法增加對於身心障礙者家庭的這個保護那我也有看到這個衛福部他們有提供意見就這個第四條第二項這個育有未成年身心障礙者一人以上他們的看法是說這個基於減輕育有未成年身心障礙者的家庭經濟負擔保障身心障礙者的權益本部尊重主管機關那應該是內政部\n\n10\n00:03:24,707 --> 00:03:40,896\n所以我才說我們可以先透過行政協商的部分那如果衛福部也支持那我們去衛福部看起來是支持的啊對就我們再透過行政措施直接在後續就可以直接把它納入不一定要透過修法不一定透過修法吧就是雙方有協商有身心障礙者對對對\n\n11\n00:03:44,110 --> 00:03:59,971\n對對所以如果要修法我們也支持但是我們會先跟這個衛福部這種行程協商的部分先來做處理比較快就對了好那就是說這個未來就是如果家中有這一個未成年身心障礙者他們也是符合這個規定就對了是好\n\n12\n00:04:02,057 --> 00:04:25,434\n剛剛這個我看聽說很多委員提到就是說社會住宅因為我們現在按照你們出租辦法規定租賃其實是三年然後這個申請續租最長不得超過六年但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年那現在遇到一些問題就是說比如說家中有這個未成年子女他可能去住的時候未成年但是經過三年六年之後\n\n13\n00:04:26,018 --> 00:04:48,032\n還要念書了學籍在那邊我們社宅可以設籍嘛對不對學籍在那邊那遇到這個小孩子念書怎麼辦因為他已經在那邊生活圈都要在那邊了那有可能在那邊念了幾年小學幾年級之後那發現說六年已經到了那是不是可以再延長那還有就是說我們還有這個65歲以上的長者65歲住進去好了然後六年之後變成70幾歲了\n\n14\n00:04:51,574 --> 00:05:08,855\n其實幾歲你要再叫他再去找這個房子其實也是有點困難我們講社會住宅這部分的話是不是就是我們所提到的比如說有未成年子女學籍的問題還有老人家居住的一些問題這邊是不是可以做彈性做處理報告就是說其實\n\n15\n00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:31,935\n大概最大的困難是因為現在社宅的總量是不夠的如果今天再去延長的話他這個社宅的循環使用使用率就會降低了我知道困難點在這邊啦所以才會說像有一些是當然會透過其他包租代管跟租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續他可能就不一定在這裡但是在周遭嘛\n\n16\n00:05:32,475 --> 00:05:48,957\n那第二個就是說我們現在剛好也是六年一期的所以剛好各地的社宅第一波的社宅都已經輪完一輪了那其實有很多使用上的問題或者是剛剛所提到的有學籍的問題或者是他必須要轉換住房的問題我們現在都在收整這些意見\n\n17\n00:05:50,719 --> 00:06:16,957\n統一來做一個檢討看看我們後面再對於社宅的這個出租的辦法要不要再重新做一些修正我想這都值得檢討但是要直接去拉長租期恐怕會在使用上使用的效率上我也知道因為現在社宅數量還不夠那如果說久住的話也會變成說有這個需要的人他可能就住不進去所以我才講說因為現在內政部有這個300億的中央擴大租金補貼的專案那這個專案裡面特別有針對說比如說這個\n\n18\n00:06:20,419 --> 00:06:48,485\n你們有鼓勵婚姻還有加強關懷弱勢對於符合租金的金額你們是2000到8000還可以再加碼比如說他這個育有未成年子女一個人的話再加碼1.4倍然後租如此類以此類推然後經濟弱勢1.4倍社會弱勢1.2倍就是會增加啦那我想說如果是這樣子的話能不能在租金補貼這方面這倍數可以再多一點讓他們就是說有機會啦就是說如果已經在這邊住很久尤其老人家\n\n19\n00:06:49,365 --> 00:07:08,973\n70幾歲你要他搬走那他可能真的你要叫他去租房子可能也有一些困難的話是不是在這一個擴大租金補貼的這個倍數上面能夠再著以調整增加讓他們如果萬一不得已必須搬離的話比較容易在附近找到房子了解這我們會在整體來做一些討論來調配因為這個部分當然也會考慮到這個我們的這個財源的問題就是撥補的問題那第二個就是說\n\n20\n00:07:16,909 --> 00:07:30,618\n以哪些族群我想這都還有要再討論的空間但是這個方向我認為你們應該要去做處理好不好好那我最後一個問題我請教這個那部長跟署長請問應該是這個豬是跟地震是有關係的對好來好好謝謝這個這個\n\n21\n00:07:36,071 --> 00:08:03,807\n這個最近有個新聞蠻紅的就是在高雄有一個通口飯店租屋糾紛然後呢後來因為他是房東他就說他不知道說這一個他們租給他的比這個附近的這個租屋的這個平均的租金還要便宜這是他的說法啦但是我們也只要說就是說在租房子的時候租金到底怎麼去什麼是一個合理的價格那你們這邊有一個合理價格的一個評判的一個標準嗎\n\n22\n00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:34,667\n公委員報告一下大概會有幾個管道第一個部分就是有關於住宅類的部分因為我們現在有租金補貼所以我們現在每半年都有公佈租金的行情讓民眾來做一個知道那這個案子應該是商用的部分那一般店鋪或商用的部分如果透過仲介來做一個媒合的話那這個都要經過實價登錄然後去做一個查詢跟一個可以提供公開查詢所以如果在商用的部分也可以透過實價登錄的一個資料來做一個查詢好\n\n23\n00:08:36,608 --> 00:08:55,288\n那如果說房客跟房東之間出現了租金的問題你們現在都是用消保法來做處理就對了這個部分的話因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為那如果一般商用的或店鋪用的話他可以循鄉鎮市調節委員會的一個途徑來做處理\n\n24\n00:08:58,371 --> 00:09:21,704\n因為在我們這個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例裡面我看到說這個第六條第六條你們有講到說租賃住宅的租金由出租人跟成租人約定不適用土地法第97條的規定這是第六條的規定但是第一條呢它其實開宗明就講得很清楚了這個維護人民居住權健全租賃住宅市場等等之類的那我在想\n\n25\n00:09:22,304 --> 00:09:45,465\n就是說如果有關於這一個租金這方面的話應該不是說放任如果按照第六條來看好像是放任就是說你就是房東跟房客在自由市場裡面你們去討論這個租金但是呢這個我們如果要保障這一個這個租客的話那其實在很多的這個先進國家他們都有對這個租金做一些立法上面的一個\n\n26\n00:09:46,245 --> 00:10:08,007\n介入不是完全任由這個市場機制來做決定的啦那我想說有關於這個第六條這部分的話那是不是我們也可以來做一些修正比如說我們這個你這個如果要房東要去調漲這個房租的話那是不是呢就原來這個租金的這個水準然後參考周邊的這個住宅租金的這個水準\n\n27\n00:10:08,947 --> 00:10:28,664\n還有物價上漲率還有出租人重大修繕所支出的費用然後就房租上漲的要件頻率幅度加以限制那作為管制房租的一個手段有關於住宅出令的部分的話我們就持續滾動前逃那個委員剛才提的建議其實我們也可以其實也可以來\n\n28\n00:10:29,842 --> 00:10:53,314\n來評估來檢討看看我的意思是說不是說第一個交給市場來決定第二個就是說那有什麼問題就是這個消保法或是說到什麼鄉鎮調解會去做處理其實我們的這一個租賃住宅市場的管理條例第六條其實已經有說得很清楚這個條例對於住宅類的部分其實對於租屋服都有一些相關的保障時間有限就先到這裡謝謝謝謝李崑禎\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4019\t8002\t謝謝主席我們請這一個政部長還有國土署我們吳署長請問住宅法的問題一定問住宅法\n15888\t36436\t因為我們今天在講住宅法的修法來我先請教一下我剛有聽到國民黨的委員在提到說這個福州合一宅在我們新北市板橋那裡然後福州合一宅他說現在是什麼樂透宅買到就賺到然後好像一副是民進黨政府做的我請教一下吳署長這個福州合一宅是誰哪個總統哪一個內政部長哪一個署長做的\n40317\t56978\t是在馬總統的任內馬總統任內我記得在2010年那時候他們提出了所謂的這個什麼合一住宅的政策所以我們在我們為什麼會有社會住宅就是不可以再賣了就是爆發弊案嘛我還記得那時候的雲建署的署長\n58199\t86729\t葉士文爆發弊案收賄等等之類的後來才改成說我們這個社會住宅就是只租不賣是然後當時候的這個馬英九政府他們是這個合一宅是可以買賣的所以我聽過了避鎖期但是那時候就是避鎖期我記得就是用債權的方式來躲避這個避鎖期的這個問題那是避鎖期之前有這一個假債權真買賣的這個方式那福州合一宅避鎖期\n88089\t108662\t今年好像上半年就結束了它有分五年十年的那到今年是十年已經結束了已經結束了是那所以是民進黨政府在收這個爛攤子沒錯所以我聽到說國民黨委員講說這個福州合約宅的這麼多問題而且是我們主動去抓出這一些問題然後主動移送給檢方\n110163\t139535\t對啊 那所以這個不知情的人還以為說這福祉合一宅是民進黨執政的時候做的因為我們很快觀察出一定會有這個問題出來因為那時候爆發很多用這個債權去法拍的我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了所以我們主動從這個法拍的資料裡面去找出可能出現的問題主動移送給檢方來偵辦那到目前為止有三四五件已經在法院已經在審理當中\n140035\t156273\t對啊那所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子我們現在民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子是好 那我再問一下那個因為住宅法我也有提案來修法我是提案這個第四條這個修改這個第二項就是說我把這一個育幼\n156853\t178784\t這個未成年身心障礙者一人以上把他納進去因為我們現在的這個住宅法第四條它裡面有一項是身心障礙但是呢如果是這個家中有身心障礙的未成年人他不能去申請嘛因為未成年但是呢他的父母也不能去幫他申請因為他也不符合資格\n179604\t204026\t那所以說我才會建議說在這個修改住宅法增加對於身心障礙者家庭的這個保護那我也有看到這個衛福部他們有提供意見就這個第四條第二項這個育有未成年身心障礙者一人以上他們的看法是說這個基於減輕育有未成年身心障礙者的家庭經濟負擔保障身心障礙者的權益本部尊重主管機關那應該是內政部\n204707\t220896\t所以我才說我們可以先透過行政協商的部分那如果衛福部也支持那我們去衛福部看起來是支持的啊對就我們再透過行政措施直接在後續就可以直接把它納入不一定要透過修法不一定透過修法吧就是雙方有協商有身心障礙者對對對\n224110\t239971\t對對所以如果要修法我們也支持但是我們會先跟這個衛福部這種行程協商的部分先來做處理比較快就對了好那就是說這個未來就是如果家中有這一個未成年身心障礙者他們也是符合這個規定就對了是好\n242057\t265434\t剛剛這個我看聽說很多委員提到就是說社會住宅因為我們現在按照你們出租辦法規定租賃其實是三年然後這個申請續租最長不得超過六年但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年那現在遇到一些問題就是說比如說家中有這個未成年子女他可能去住的時候未成年但是經過三年六年之後\n266018\t288032\t還要念書了學籍在那邊我們社宅可以設籍嘛對不對學籍在那邊那遇到這個小孩子念書怎麼辦因為他已經在那邊生活圈都要在那邊了那有可能在那邊念了幾年小學幾年級之後那發現說六年已經到了那是不是可以再延長那還有就是說我們還有這個65歲以上的長者65歲住進去好了然後六年之後變成70幾歲了\n291574\t308855\t其實幾歲你要再叫他再去找這個房子其實也是有點困難我們講社會住宅這部分的話是不是就是我們所提到的比如說有未成年子女學籍的問題還有老人家居住的一些問題這邊是不是可以做彈性做處理報告就是說其實\n309636\t331935\t大概最大的困難是因為現在社宅的總量是不夠的如果今天再去延長的話他這個社宅的循環使用使用率就會降低了我知道困難點在這邊啦所以才會說像有一些是當然會透過其他包租代管跟租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續他可能就不一定在這裡但是在周遭嘛\n332475\t348957\t那第二個就是說我們現在剛好也是六年一期的所以剛好各地的社宅第一波的社宅都已經輪完一輪了那其實有很多使用上的問題或者是剛剛所提到的有學籍的問題或者是他必須要轉換住房的問題我們現在都在收整這些意見\n350719\t376957\t統一來做一個檢討看看我們後面再對於社宅的這個出租的辦法要不要再重新做一些修正我想這都值得檢討但是要直接去拉長租期恐怕會在使用上使用的效率上我也知道因為現在社宅數量還不夠那如果說久住的話也會變成說有這個需要的人他可能就住不進去所以我才講說因為現在內政部有這個300億的中央擴大租金補貼的專案那這個專案裡面特別有針對說比如說這個\n380419\t408485\t你們有鼓勵婚姻還有加強關懷弱勢對於符合租金的金額你們是2000到8000還可以再加碼比如說他這個育有未成年子女一個人的話再加碼1.4倍然後租如此類以此類推然後經濟弱勢1.4倍社會弱勢1.2倍就是會增加啦那我想說如果是這樣子的話能不能在租金補貼這方面這倍數可以再多一點讓他們就是說有機會啦就是說如果已經在這邊住很久尤其老人家\n409365\t428973\t70幾歲你要他搬走那他可能真的你要叫他去租房子可能也有一些困難的話是不是在這一個擴大租金補貼的這個倍數上面能夠再著以調整增加讓他們如果萬一不得已必須搬離的話比較容易在附近找到房子了解這我們會在整體來做一些討論來調配因為這個部分當然也會考慮到這個我們的這個財源的問題就是撥補的問題那第二個就是說\n436909\t450618\t以哪些族群我想這都還有要再討論的空間但是這個方向我認為你們應該要去做處理好不好好那我最後一個問題我請教這個那部長跟署長請問應該是這個豬是跟地震是有關係的對好來好好謝謝這個這個\n456071\t483807\t這個最近有個新聞蠻紅的就是在高雄有一個通口飯店租屋糾紛然後呢後來因為他是房東他就說他不知道說這一個他們租給他的比這個附近的這個租屋的這個平均的租金還要便宜這是他的說法啦但是我們也只要說就是說在租房子的時候租金到底怎麼去什麼是一個合理的價格那你們這邊有一個合理價格的一個評判的一個標準嗎\n485920\t514667\t公委員報告一下大概會有幾個管道第一個部分就是有關於住宅類的部分因為我們現在有租金補貼所以我們現在每半年都有公佈租金的行情讓民眾來做一個知道那這個案子應該是商用的部分那一般店鋪或商用的部分如果透過仲介來做一個媒合的話那這個都要經過實價登錄然後去做一個查詢跟一個可以提供公開查詢所以如果在商用的部分也可以透過實價登錄的一個資料來做一個查詢好\n516608\t535288\t那如果說房客跟房東之間出現了租金的問題你們現在都是用消保法來做處理就對了這個部分的話因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為那如果一般商用的或店鋪用的話他可以循鄉鎮市調節委員會的一個途徑來做處理\n538371\t561704\t因為在我們這個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例裡面我看到說這個第六條第六條你們有講到說租賃住宅的租金由出租人跟成租人約定不適用土地法第97條的規定這是第六條的規定但是第一條呢它其實開宗明就講得很清楚了這個維護人民居住權健全租賃住宅市場等等之類的那我在想\n562304\t585465\t就是說如果有關於這一個租金這方面的話應該不是說放任如果按照第六條來看好像是放任就是說你就是房東跟房客在自由市場裡面你們去討論這個租金但是呢這個我們如果要保障這一個這個租客的話那其實在很多的這個先進國家他們都有對這個租金做一些立法上面的一個\n586245\t608007\t介入不是完全任由這個市場機制來做決定的啦那我想說有關於這個第六條這部分的話那是不是我們也可以來做一些修正比如說我們這個你這個如果要房東要去調漲這個房租的話那是不是呢就原來這個租金的這個水準然後參考周邊的這個住宅租金的這個水準\n608947\t628664\t還有物價上漲率還有出租人重大修繕所支出的費用然後就房租上漲的要件頻率幅度加以限制那作為管制房租的一個手段有關於住宅出令的部分的話我們就持續滾動前逃那個委員剛才提的建議其實我們也可以其實也可以來\n629842\t653314\t來評估來檢討看看我的意思是說不是說第一個交給市場來決定第二個就是說那有什麼問題就是這個消保法或是說到什麼鄉鎮調解會去做處理其實我們的這一個租賃住宅市場的管理條例第六條其實已經有說得很清楚這個條例對於住宅類的部分其實對於租屋服都有一些相關的保障時間有限就先到這裡謝謝謝謝李崑禎\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們請這一個政部長還有國土署我們吳署長請問住宅法的問題一定問住宅法\n因為我們今天在講住宅法的修法來我先請教一下我剛有聽到國民黨的委員在提到說這個福州合一宅在我們新北市板橋那裡然後福州合一宅他說現在是什麼樂透宅買到就賺到然後好像一副是民進黨政府做的我請教一下吳署長這個福州合一宅是誰哪個總統哪一個內政部長哪一個署長做的\n是在馬總統的任內馬總統任內我記得在2010年那時候他們提出了所謂的這個什麼合一住宅的政策所以我們在我們為什麼會有社會住宅就是不可以再賣了就是爆發弊案嘛我還記得那時候的雲建署的署長\n葉士文爆發弊案收賄等等之類的後來才改成說我們這個社會住宅就是只租不賣是然後當時候的這個馬英九政府他們是這個合一宅是可以買賣的所以我聽過了避鎖期但是那時候就是避鎖期我記得就是用債權的方式來躲避這個避鎖期的這個問題那是避鎖期之前有這一個假債權真買賣的這個方式那福州合一宅避鎖期\n今年好像上半年就結束了它有分五年十年的那到今年是十年已經結束了已經結束了是那所以是民進黨政府在收這個爛攤子沒錯所以我聽到說國民黨委員講說這個福州合約宅的這麼多問題而且是我們主動去抓出這一些問題然後主動移送給檢方\n對啊 那所以這個不知情的人還以為說這福祉合一宅是民進黨執政的時候做的因為我們很快觀察出一定會有這個問題出來因為那時候爆發很多用這個債權去法拍的我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了所以我們主動從這個法拍的資料裡面去找出可能出現的問題主動移送給檢方來偵辦那到目前為止有三四五件已經在法院已經在審理當中\n對啊那所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子我們現在民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子是好 那我再問一下那個因為住宅法我也有提案來修法我是提案這個第四條這個修改這個第二項就是說我把這一個育幼\n這個未成年身心障礙者一人以上把他納進去因為我們現在的這個住宅法第四條它裡面有一項是身心障礙但是呢如果是這個家中有身心障礙的未成年人他不能去申請嘛因為未成年但是呢他的父母也不能去幫他申請因為他也不符合資格\n那所以說我才會建議說在這個修改住宅法增加對於身心障礙者家庭的這個保護那我也有看到這個衛福部他們有提供意見就這個第四條第二項這個育有未成年身心障礙者一人以上他們的看法是說這個基於減輕育有未成年身心障礙者的家庭經濟負擔保障身心障礙者的權益本部尊重主管機關那應該是內政部\n所以我才說我們可以先透過行政協商的部分那如果衛福部也支持那我們去衛福部看起來是支持的啊對就我們再透過行政措施直接在後續就可以直接把它納入不一定要透過修法不一定透過修法吧就是雙方有協商有身心障礙者對對對\n對對所以如果要修法我們也支持但是我們會先跟這個衛福部這種行程協商的部分先來做處理比較快就對了好那就是說這個未來就是如果家中有這一個未成年身心障礙者他們也是符合這個規定就對了是好\n剛剛這個我看聽說很多委員提到就是說社會住宅因為我們現在按照你們出租辦法規定租賃其實是三年然後這個申請續租最長不得超過六年但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年那現在遇到一些問題就是說比如說家中有這個未成年子女他可能去住的時候未成年但是經過三年六年之後\n還要念書了學籍在那邊我們社宅可以設籍嘛對不對學籍在那邊那遇到這個小孩子念書怎麼辦因為他已經在那邊生活圈都要在那邊了那有可能在那邊念了幾年小學幾年級之後那發現說六年已經到了那是不是可以再延長那還有就是說我們還有這個65歲以上的長者65歲住進去好了然後六年之後變成70幾歲了\n其實幾歲你要再叫他再去找這個房子其實也是有點困難我們講社會住宅這部分的話是不是就是我們所提到的比如說有未成年子女學籍的問題還有老人家居住的一些問題這邊是不是可以做彈性做處理報告就是說其實\n大概最大的困難是因為現在社宅的總量是不夠的如果今天再去延長的話他這個社宅的循環使用使用率就會降低了我知道困難點在這邊啦所以才會說像有一些是當然會透過其他包租代管跟租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續他可能就不一定在這裡但是在周遭嘛\n那第二個就是說我們現在剛好也是六年一期的所以剛好各地的社宅第一波的社宅都已經輪完一輪了那其實有很多使用上的問題或者是剛剛所提到的有學籍的問題或者是他必須要轉換住房的問題我們現在都在收整這些意見\n統一來做一個檢討看看我們後面再對於社宅的這個出租的辦法要不要再重新做一些修正我想這都值得檢討但是要直接去拉長租期恐怕會在使用上使用的效率上我也知道因為現在社宅數量還不夠那如果說久住的話也會變成說有這個需要的人他可能就住不進去所以我才講說因為現在內政部有這個300億的中央擴大租金補貼的專案那這個專案裡面特別有針對說比如說這個\n你們有鼓勵婚姻還有加強關懷弱勢對於符合租金的金額你們是2000到8000還可以再加碼比如說他這個育有未成年子女一個人的話再加碼1.4倍然後租如此類以此類推然後經濟弱勢1.4倍社會弱勢1.2倍就是會增加啦那我想說如果是這樣子的話能不能在租金補貼這方面這倍數可以再多一點讓他們就是說有機會啦就是說如果已經在這邊住很久尤其老人家\n70幾歲你要他搬走那他可能真的你要叫他去租房子可能也有一些困難的話是不是在這一個擴大租金補貼的這個倍數上面能夠再著以調整增加讓他們如果萬一不得已必須搬離的話比較容易在附近找到房子了解這我們會在整體來做一些討論來調配因為這個部分當然也會考慮到這個我們的這個財源的問題就是撥補的問題那第二個就是說\n以哪些族群我想這都還有要再討論的空間但是這個方向我認為你們應該要去做處理好不好好那我最後一個問題我請教這個那部長跟署長請問應該是這個豬是跟地震是有關係的對好來好好謝謝這個這個\n這個最近有個新聞蠻紅的就是在高雄有一個通口飯店租屋糾紛然後呢後來因為他是房東他就說他不知道說這一個他們租給他的比這個附近的這個租屋的這個平均的租金還要便宜這是他的說法啦但是我們也只要說就是說在租房子的時候租金到底怎麼去什麼是一個合理的價格那你們這邊有一個合理價格的一個評判的一個標準嗎\n公委員報告一下大概會有幾個管道第一個部分就是有關於住宅類的部分因為我們現在有租金補貼所以我們現在每半年都有公佈租金的行情讓民眾來做一個知道那這個案子應該是商用的部分那一般店鋪或商用的部分如果透過仲介來做一個媒合的話那這個都要經過實價登錄然後去做一個查詢跟一個可以提供公開查詢所以如果在商用的部分也可以透過實價登錄的一個資料來做一個查詢好\n那如果說房客跟房東之間出現了租金的問題你們現在都是用消保法來做處理就對了這個部分的話因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為那如果一般商用的或店鋪用的話他可以循鄉鎮市調節委員會的一個途徑來做處理\n因為在我們這個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例裡面我看到說這個第六條第六條你們有講到說租賃住宅的租金由出租人跟成租人約定不適用土地法第97條的規定這是第六條的規定但是第一條呢它其實開宗明就講得很清楚了這個維護人民居住權健全租賃住宅市場等等之類的那我在想\n就是說如果有關於這一個租金這方面的話應該不是說放任如果按照第六條來看好像是放任就是說你就是房東跟房客在自由市場裡面你們去討論這個租金但是呢這個我們如果要保障這一個這個租客的話那其實在很多的這個先進國家他們都有對這個租金做一些立法上面的一個\n介入不是完全任由這個市場機制來做決定的啦那我想說有關於這個第六條這部分的話那是不是我們也可以來做一些修正比如說我們這個你這個如果要房東要去調漲這個房租的話那是不是呢就原來這個租金的這個水準然後參考周邊的這個住宅租金的這個水準\n還有物價上漲率還有出租人重大修繕所支出的費用然後就房租上漲的要件頻率幅度加以限制那作為管制房租的一個手段有關於住宅出令的部分的話我們就持續滾動前逃那個委員剛才提的建議其實我們也可以其實也可以來\n來評估來檢討看看我的意思是說不是說第一個交給市場來決定第二個就是說那有什麼問題就是這個消保法或是說到什麼鄉鎮調解會去做處理其實我們的這一個租賃住宅市場的管理條例第六條其實已經有說得很清楚這個條例對於住宅類的部分其實對於租屋服都有一些相關的保障時間有限就先到這裡謝謝謝謝李崑禎\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.019 --> 00:08.002\n謝謝主席我們請這一個政部長還有國土署我們吳署長請問住宅法的問題一定問住宅法\n\n00:15.888 --> 00:36.436\n因為我們今天在講住宅法的修法來我先請教一下我剛有聽到國民黨的委員在提到說這個福州合一宅在我們新北市板橋那裡然後福州合一宅他說現在是什麼樂透宅買到就賺到然後好像一副是民進黨政府做的我請教一下吳署長這個福州合一宅是誰哪個總統哪一個內政部長哪一個署長做的\n\n00:40.317 --> 00:56.978\n是在馬總統的任內馬總統任內我記得在2010年那時候他們提出了所謂的這個什麼合一住宅的政策所以我們在我們為什麼會有社會住宅就是不可以再賣了就是爆發弊案嘛我還記得那時候的雲建署的署長\n\n00:58.199 --> 01:26.729\n葉士文爆發弊案收賄等等之類的後來才改成說我們這個社會住宅就是只租不賣是然後當時候的這個馬英九政府他們是這個合一宅是可以買賣的所以我聽過了避鎖期但是那時候就是避鎖期我記得就是用債權的方式來躲避這個避鎖期的這個問題那是避鎖期之前有這一個假債權真買賣的這個方式那福州合一宅避鎖期\n\n01:28.089 --> 01:48.662\n今年好像上半年就結束了它有分五年十年的那到今年是十年已經結束了已經結束了是那所以是民進黨政府在收這個爛攤子沒錯所以我聽到說國民黨委員講說這個福州合約宅的這麼多問題而且是我們主動去抓出這一些問題然後主動移送給檢方\n\n01:50.163 --> 02:19.535\n對啊那所以這個不知情的人還以為說這福祉合一宅是民進黨執政的時候做的因為我們很快觀察出一定會有這個問題出來因為那時候爆發很多用這個債權去法拍的我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了所以我們主動從這個法拍的資料裡面去找出可能出現的問題主動移送給檢方來偵辦那到目前為止有三四五件已經在法院已經在審理當中\n\n02:20.035 --> 02:36.273\n對啊那所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子我們現在民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子是好那我再問一下那個因為住宅法我也有提案來修法我是提案這個第四條這個修改這個第二項就是說我把這一個育幼\n\n02:36.853 --> 02:58.784\n這個未成年身心障礙者一人以上把他納進去因為我們現在的這個住宅法第四條它裡面有一項是身心障礙但是呢如果是這個家中有身心障礙的未成年人他不能去申請嘛因為未成年但是呢他的父母也不能去幫他申請因為他也不符合資格\n\n02:59.604 --> 03:24.026\n那所以說我才會建議說在這個修改住宅法增加對於身心障礙者家庭的這個保護那我也有看到這個衛福部他們有提供意見就這個第四條第二項這個育有未成年身心障礙者一人以上他們的看法是說這個基於減輕育有未成年身心障礙者的家庭經濟負擔保障身心障礙者的權益本部尊重主管機關那應該是內政部\n\n03:24.707 --> 03:40.896\n所以我才說我們可以先透過行政協商的部分那如果衛福部也支持那我們去衛福部看起來是支持的啊對就我們再透過行政措施直接在後續就可以直接把它納入不一定要透過修法不一定透過修法吧就是雙方有協商有身心障礙者對對對\n\n03:44.110 --> 03:59.971\n對對所以如果要修法我們也支持但是我們會先跟這個衛福部這種行程協商的部分先來做處理比較快就對了好那就是說這個未來就是如果家中有這一個未成年身心障礙者他們也是符合這個規定就對了是好\n\n04:02.057 --> 04:25.434\n剛剛這個我看聽說很多委員提到就是說社會住宅因為我們現在按照你們出租辦法規定租賃其實是三年然後這個申請續租最長不得超過六年但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年那現在遇到一些問題就是說比如說家中有這個未成年子女他可能去住的時候未成年但是經過三年六年之後\n\n04:26.018 --> 04:48.032\n還要念書了學籍在那邊我們社宅可以設籍嘛對不對學籍在那邊那遇到這個小孩子念書怎麼辦因為他已經在那邊生活圈都要在那邊了那有可能在那邊念了幾年小學幾年級之後那發現說六年已經到了那是不是可以再延長那還有就是說我們還有這個65歲以上的長者65歲住進去好了然後六年之後變成70幾歲了\n\n04:51.574 --> 05:08.855\n其實幾歲你要再叫他再去找這個房子其實也是有點困難我們講社會住宅這部分的話是不是就是我們所提到的比如說有未成年子女學籍的問題還有老人家居住的一些問題這邊是不是可以做彈性做處理報告就是說其實\n\n05:09.636 --> 05:31.935\n大概最大的困難是因為現在社宅的總量是不夠的如果今天再去延長的話他這個社宅的循環使用使用率就會降低了我知道困難點在這邊啦所以才會說像有一些是當然會透過其他包租代管跟租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續他可能就不一定在這裡但是在周遭嘛\n\n05:32.475 --> 05:48.957\n那第二個就是說我們現在剛好也是六年一期的所以剛好各地的社宅第一波的社宅都已經輪完一輪了那其實有很多使用上的問題或者是剛剛所提到的有學籍的問題或者是他必須要轉換住房的問題我們現在都在收整這些意見\n\n05:50.719 --> 06:16.957\n統一來做一個檢討看看我們後面再對於社宅的這個出租的辦法要不要再重新做一些修正我想這都值得檢討但是要直接去拉長租期恐怕會在使用上使用的效率上我也知道因為現在社宅數量還不夠那如果說久住的話也會變成說有這個需要的人他可能就住不進去所以我才講說因為現在內政部有這個300億的中央擴大租金補貼的專案那這個專案裡面特別有針對說比如說這個\n\n06:20.419 --> 06:48.485\n你們有鼓勵婚姻還有加強關懷弱勢對於符合租金的金額你們是2000到8000還可以再加碼比如說他這個育有未成年子女一個人的話再加碼1.4倍然後租如此類以此類推然後經濟弱勢1.4倍社會弱勢1.2倍就是會增加啦那我想說如果是這樣子的話能不能在租金補貼這方面這倍數可以再多一點讓他們就是說有機會啦就是說如果已經在這邊住很久尤其老人家\n\n06:49.365 --> 07:08.973\n70幾歲你要他搬走那他可能真的你要叫他去租房子可能也有一些困難的話是不是在這一個擴大租金補貼的這個倍數上面能夠再著以調整增加讓他們如果萬一不得已必須搬離的話比較容易在附近找到房子了解這我們會在整體來做一些討論來調配因為這個部分當然也會考慮到這個我們的這個財源的問題就是撥補的問題那第二個就是說\n\n07:16.909 --> 07:30.618\n以哪些族群我想這都還有要再討論的空間但是這個方向我認為你們應該要去做處理好不好好那我最後一個問題我請教這個那部長跟署長請問應該是這個豬是跟地震是有關係的對好來好好謝謝這個這個\n\n07:36.071 --> 08:03.807\n這個最近有個新聞蠻紅的就是在高雄有一個通口飯店租屋糾紛然後呢後來因為他是房東他就說他不知道說這一個他們租給他的比這個附近的這個租屋的這個平均的租金還要便宜這是他的說法啦但是我們也只要說就是說在租房子的時候租金到底怎麼去什麼是一個合理的價格那你們這邊有一個合理價格的一個評判的一個標準嗎\n\n08:05.920 --> 08:34.667\n公委員報告一下大概會有幾個管道第一個部分就是有關於住宅類的部分因為我們現在有租金補貼所以我們現在每半年都有公佈租金的行情讓民眾來做一個知道那這個案子應該是商用的部分那一般店鋪或商用的部分如果透過仲介來做一個媒合的話那這個都要經過實價登錄然後去做一個查詢跟一個可以提供公開查詢所以如果在商用的部分也可以透過實價登錄的一個資料來做一個查詢好\n\n08:36.608 --> 08:55.288\n那如果說房客跟房東之間出現了租金的問題你們現在都是用消保法來做處理就對了這個部分的話因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為那如果一般商用的或店鋪用的話他可以循鄉鎮市調節委員會的一個途徑來做處理\n\n08:58.371 --> 09:21.704\n因為在我們這個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例裡面我看到說這個第六條第六條你們有講到說租賃住宅的租金由出租人跟成租人約定不適用土地法第97條的規定這是第六條的規定但是第一條呢它其實開宗明就講得很清楚了這個維護人民居住權健全租賃住宅市場等等之類的那我在想\n\n09:22.304 --> 09:45.465\n就是說如果有關於這一個租金這方面的話應該不是說放任如果按照第六條來看好像是放任就是說你就是房東跟房客在自由市場裡面你們去討論這個租金但是呢這個我們如果要保障這一個這個租客的話那其實在很多的這個先進國家他們都有對這個租金做一些立法上面的一個\n\n09:46.245 --> 10:08.007\n介入不是完全任由這個市場機制來做決定的啦那我想說有關於這個第六條這部分的話那是不是我們也可以來做一些修正比如說我們這個你這個如果要房東要去調漲這個房租的話那是不是呢就原來這個租金的這個水準然後參考周邊的這個住宅租金的這個水準\n\n10:08.947 --> 10:28.664\n還有物價上漲率還有出租人重大修繕所支出的費用然後就房租上漲的要件頻率幅度加以限制那作為管制房租的一個手段有關於住宅出令的部分的話我們就持續滾動前逃那個委員剛才提的建議其實我們也可以其實也可以來\n\n10:29.842 --> 10:53.314\n來評估來檢討看看我的意思是說不是說第一個交給市場來決定第二個就是說那有什麼問題就是這個消保法或是說到什麼鄉鎮調解會去做處理其實我們的這一個租賃住宅市場的管理條例第六條其實已經有說得很清楚這個條例對於住宅類的部分其實對於租屋服都有一些相關的保障時間有限就先到這裡謝謝謝謝李崑禎\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.019,"end":8.002,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這一個政部長還有國土署我們吳署長請問住宅法的問題一定問住宅法"},{"start":15.888,"end":36.436,"text":"因為我們今天在講住宅法的修法來我先請教一下我剛有聽到國民黨的委員在提到說這個福州合一宅在我們新北市板橋那裡然後福州合一宅他說現在是什麼樂透宅買到就賺到然後好像一副是民進黨政府做的我請教一下吳署長這個福州合一宅是誰哪個總統哪一個內政部長哪一個署長做的"},{"start":40.317,"end":56.978,"text":"是在馬總統的任內馬總統任內我記得在2010年那時候他們提出了所謂的這個什麼合一住宅的政策所以我們在我們為什麼會有社會住宅就是不可以再賣了就是爆發弊案嘛我還記得那時候的雲建署的署長"},{"start":58.199,"end":86.729,"text":"葉士文爆發弊案收賄等等之類的後來才改成說我們這個社會住宅就是只租不賣是然後當時候的這個馬英九政府他們是這個合一宅是可以買賣的所以我聽過了避鎖期但是那時候就是避鎖期我記得就是用債權的方式來躲避這個避鎖期的這個問題那是避鎖期之前有這一個假債權真買賣的這個方式那福州合一宅避鎖期"},{"start":88.089,"end":108.662,"text":"今年好像上半年就結束了它有分五年十年的那到今年是十年已經結束了已經結束了是那所以是民進黨政府在收這個爛攤子沒錯所以我聽到說國民黨委員講說這個福州合約宅的這麼多問題而且是我們主動去抓出這一些問題然後主動移送給檢方"},{"start":110.163,"end":139.535,"text":"對啊 那所以這個不知情的人還以為說這福祉合一宅是民進黨執政的時候做的因為我們很快觀察出一定會有這個問題出來因為那時候爆發很多用這個債權去法拍的我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了所以我們主動從這個法拍的資料裡面去找出可能出現的問題主動移送給檢方來偵辦那到目前為止有三四五件已經在法院已經在審理當中"},{"start":140.035,"end":156.273,"text":"對啊那所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子我們現在民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子是好 那我再問一下那個因為住宅法我也有提案來修法我是提案這個第四條這個修改這個第二項就是說我把這一個育幼"},{"start":156.853,"end":178.784,"text":"這個未成年身心障礙者一人以上把他納進去因為我們現在的這個住宅法第四條它裡面有一項是身心障礙但是呢如果是這個家中有身心障礙的未成年人他不能去申請嘛因為未成年但是呢他的父母也不能去幫他申請因為他也不符合資格"},{"start":179.604,"end":204.026,"text":"那所以說我才會建議說在這個修改住宅法增加對於身心障礙者家庭的這個保護那我也有看到這個衛福部他們有提供意見就這個第四條第二項這個育有未成年身心障礙者一人以上他們的看法是說這個基於減輕育有未成年身心障礙者的家庭經濟負擔保障身心障礙者的權益本部尊重主管機關那應該是內政部"},{"start":204.707,"end":220.896,"text":"所以我才說我們可以先透過行政協商的部分那如果衛福部也支持那我們去衛福部看起來是支持的啊對就我們再透過行政措施直接在後續就可以直接把它納入不一定要透過修法不一定透過修法吧就是雙方有協商有身心障礙者對對對"},{"start":224.11,"end":239.971,"text":"對對所以如果要修法我們也支持但是我們會先跟這個衛福部這種行程協商的部分先來做處理比較快就對了好那就是說這個未來就是如果家中有這一個未成年身心障礙者他們也是符合這個規定就對了是好"},{"start":242.057,"end":265.434,"text":"剛剛這個我看聽說很多委員提到就是說社會住宅因為我們現在按照你們出租辦法規定租賃其實是三年然後這個申請續租最長不得超過六年但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年那現在遇到一些問題就是說比如說家中有這個未成年子女他可能去住的時候未成年但是經過三年六年之後"},{"start":266.018,"end":288.032,"text":"還要念書了學籍在那邊我們社宅可以設籍嘛對不對學籍在那邊那遇到這個小孩子念書怎麼辦因為他已經在那邊生活圈都要在那邊了那有可能在那邊念了幾年小學幾年級之後那發現說六年已經到了那是不是可以再延長那還有就是說我們還有這個65歲以上的長者65歲住進去好了然後六年之後變成70幾歲了"},{"start":291.574,"end":308.855,"text":"其實幾歲你要再叫他再去找這個房子其實也是有點困難我們講社會住宅這部分的話是不是就是我們所提到的比如說有未成年子女學籍的問題還有老人家居住的一些問題這邊是不是可以做彈性做處理報告就是說其實"},{"start":309.636,"end":331.935,"text":"大概最大的困難是因為現在社宅的總量是不夠的如果今天再去延長的話他這個社宅的循環使用使用率就會降低了我知道困難點在這邊啦所以才會說像有一些是當然會透過其他包租代管跟租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續他可能就不一定在這裡但是在周遭嘛"},{"start":332.475,"end":348.957,"text":"那第二個就是說我們現在剛好也是六年一期的所以剛好各地的社宅第一波的社宅都已經輪完一輪了那其實有很多使用上的問題或者是剛剛所提到的有學籍的問題或者是他必須要轉換住房的問題我們現在都在收整這些意見"},{"start":350.719,"end":376.957,"text":"統一來做一個檢討看看我們後面再對於社宅的這個出租的辦法要不要再重新做一些修正我想這都值得檢討但是要直接去拉長租期恐怕會在使用上使用的效率上我也知道因為現在社宅數量還不夠那如果說久住的話也會變成說有這個需要的人他可能就住不進去所以我才講說因為現在內政部有這個300億的中央擴大租金補貼的專案那這個專案裡面特別有針對說比如說這個"},{"start":380.419,"end":408.485,"text":"你們有鼓勵婚姻還有加強關懷弱勢對於符合租金的金額你們是2000到8000還可以再加碼比如說他這個育有未成年子女一個人的話再加碼1.4倍然後租如此類以此類推然後經濟弱勢1.4倍社會弱勢1.2倍就是會增加啦那我想說如果是這樣子的話能不能在租金補貼這方面這倍數可以再多一點讓他們就是說有機會啦就是說如果已經在這邊住很久尤其老人家"},{"start":409.365,"end":428.973,"text":"70幾歲你要他搬走那他可能真的你要叫他去租房子可能也有一些困難的話是不是在這一個擴大租金補貼的這個倍數上面能夠再著以調整增加讓他們如果萬一不得已必須搬離的話比較容易在附近找到房子了解這我們會在整體來做一些討論來調配因為這個部分當然也會考慮到這個我們的這個財源的問題就是撥補的問題那第二個就是說"},{"start":436.909,"end":450.618,"text":"以哪些族群我想這都還有要再討論的空間但是這個方向我認為你們應該要去做處理好不好好那我最後一個問題我請教這個那部長跟署長請問應該是這個豬是跟地震是有關係的對好來好好謝謝這個這個"},{"start":456.071,"end":483.807,"text":"這個最近有個新聞蠻紅的就是在高雄有一個通口飯店租屋糾紛然後呢後來因為他是房東他就說他不知道說這一個他們租給他的比這個附近的這個租屋的這個平均的租金還要便宜這是他的說法啦但是我們也只要說就是說在租房子的時候租金到底怎麼去什麼是一個合理的價格那你們這邊有一個合理價格的一個評判的一個標準嗎"},{"start":485.92,"end":514.667,"text":"公委員報告一下大概會有幾個管道第一個部分就是有關於住宅類的部分因為我們現在有租金補貼所以我們現在每半年都有公佈租金的行情讓民眾來做一個知道那這個案子應該是商用的部分那一般店鋪或商用的部分如果透過仲介來做一個媒合的話那這個都要經過實價登錄然後去做一個查詢跟一個可以提供公開查詢所以如果在商用的部分也可以透過實價登錄的一個資料來做一個查詢好"},{"start":516.608,"end":535.288,"text":"那如果說房客跟房東之間出現了租金的問題你們現在都是用消保法來做處理就對了這個部分的話因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為那如果一般商用的或店鋪用的話他可以循鄉鎮市調節委員會的一個途徑來做處理"},{"start":538.371,"end":561.704,"text":"因為在我們這個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例裡面我看到說這個第六條第六條你們有講到說租賃住宅的租金由出租人跟成租人約定不適用土地法第97條的規定這是第六條的規定但是第一條呢它其實開宗明就講得很清楚了這個維護人民居住權健全租賃住宅市場等等之類的那我在想"},{"start":562.304,"end":585.465,"text":"就是說如果有關於這一個租金這方面的話應該不是說放任如果按照第六條來看好像是放任就是說你就是房東跟房客在自由市場裡面你們去討論這個租金但是呢這個我們如果要保障這一個這個租客的話那其實在很多的這個先進國家他們都有對這個租金做一些立法上面的一個"},{"start":586.245,"end":608.007,"text":"介入不是完全任由這個市場機制來做決定的啦那我想說有關於這個第六條這部分的話那是不是我們也可以來做一些修正比如說我們這個你這個如果要房東要去調漲這個房租的話那是不是呢就原來這個租金的這個水準然後參考周邊的這個住宅租金的這個水準"},{"start":608.947,"end":628.664,"text":"還有物價上漲率還有出租人重大修繕所支出的費用然後就房租上漲的要件頻率幅度加以限制那作為管制房租的一個手段有關於住宅出令的部分的話我們就持續滾動前逃那個委員剛才提的建議其實我們也可以其實也可以來"},{"start":629.842,"end":653.314,"text":"來評估來檢討看看我的意思是說不是說第一個交給市場來決定第二個就是說那有什麼問題就是這個消保法或是說到什麼鄉鎮調解會去做處理其實我們的這一個租賃住宅市場的管理條例第六條其實已經有說得很清楚這個條例對於住宅類的部分其實對於租屋服都有一些相關的保障時間有限就先到這裡謝謝謝謝李崑禎"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時5分）謝謝主席。請內政部劉部長，還有國土署吳署長。"],["主席：劉部長有請，吳署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：請委員問住宅法的問題。"],["李委員坤城：一定是問住宅法。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：我們今天是在講住宅法的修法，我先請教一下，我剛才有聽到國民黨的委員提到新北市板橋區的浮洲合宜宅，他說現在浮洲合宜宅是樂透宅，買到就賺到，然後好像一副這是民進黨政府做的。我請教一下吳署長，這個浮洲合宜宅是哪一個總統、哪一個內政部長、哪一個署長做的？"],["吳署長欣修：是在馬總統的任內。"],["李委員坤城：馬總統任內？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：我記得是2012年，那時候他們提出所謂的「合宜住宅政策」嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對，為什麼我們會有社會住宅？就是不可以再賣了、不應該再賣了。"],["李委員坤城：對，還有爆發弊案嘛！我記得那時候的營建署署長葉世文有爆發弊案、收賄等等之類的，後來社會住宅才會改成只租不賣。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：當時候的馬英九政府，他們的合宜住宅是可以買賣的，所以我聽說……"],["吳署長欣修：那是過了閉鎖期，但是那時候就是……"],["李委員坤城：閉鎖期，我記得……"],["吳署長欣修：就是用債權的方式來躲避閉鎖期這個問題。"],["李委員坤城：那是閉鎖期之前有這個，就是假債權真買賣這個方式。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：浮洲合宜宅的閉鎖期好像今年上半年就解鎖了嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：它有分5年和10年，到今年10年的已經結束了。"],["李委員坤城：已經結束了？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以是民進黨政府在收這個爛攤子欸！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：所以我聽到國民黨的委員在說這個浮洲合宜宅有這麼多的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：而且也是我們主動去抓出這些問題，然後主動移送給檢方。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以不知情的人還以為這個浮洲合宜宅是民進黨執政的時候做的。"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們很快就觀察出一定會有這個問題，因為那個時候爆發很多都是用債權去法拍的，我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了，所以我們就主動從法拍資料裡面去找出可能的問題，主動移送給檢方偵辦，到目前為止有35件法院已經在審理當中。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子，現在是我們民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再問一下，住宅法我也有提案要修法，我是提案要修改第四條第二項，我把育有未成年身心障礙者1人以上納進去，因為現在住宅法第四條裡面有一項是身心障礙，但是如果家中有未成年的身心障礙者，他是不能去申請的，因為他未成年，他們的父母也不能幫他申請，因為他也不符合資格，所以我才會建議要修改住宅法，增加對身心障礙者家庭的保護。我也有看到衛福部提供的意見，就是第四條第二項：「育有未成年身心障礙者1人以上」，他們的看法是說：「基於減輕育有未成年身心障礙者家庭的經濟負擔，保障身心障礙者的權益，本部尊重主管機關」，這應該是內政部。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才說，我們可以先透過行政協商的部分，如果衛福部也支持，其實我們……"],["李委員坤城：衛福部看起來是支持的。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們再透過行政措施，後續就可以直接納入，不一定要透過修法。"],["李委員坤城：哦！不一定要透過修法的方式？"],["吳署長欣修：對，就是雙方協商有身心障礙者。如果要修法我們也支持，但是我們會先跟衛福部由行政協商的部分來處理。"],["李委員坤城：比較快就對了。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就是說，如果未來家中有未成年的身心障礙者，他們也是符合這個規定就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：好。我剛剛聽到很多的委員也都有提到社會住宅，因為現在按照你們的出租辦法規定，租賃期是3年，然後呢？申請續租最長不得超過6年，但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年，但是現在遇到一些問題，譬如說：家中有未成年子女，他可能住的時候是未成年，但是經過3年、6年之後，他要唸書了，他的學籍在那邊，因為社宅可以設籍嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：他的學籍在那邊，這個小孩子要唸書的時候怎麼辦？因為他的生活圈都在那邊，他有可能在那邊唸了幾年的小學後，發現6年已經到了，這時候是不是可以再延長？還有65歲以上的長者，好，他65歲的時候住進去好了，住了6年之後，他變成七十幾歲了，這時候你要他再去找房子，其實這也是有點困難，所以社會住宅這個部分，就是我們所提到的，譬如說：有未成年子女學籍的問題，還有老人家的居住問題，這邊是不是可以彈性處理？"],["吳署長欣修：報告，其實大概最大的困難就是現在社宅的總量是不夠的。"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道。"],["吳署長欣修：如果今天再去延長的話，社宅的循環使用率就會降低了。"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道困難點在這邊，但是有沒有其他什麼權宜措施？"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才會說，像有一些就會透過包租代管或是租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續，他可能就不一定是住在這裡，但是可以住在周遭嘛！第二、現在剛好也是6年一期的社宅，各地第一波的社宅剛好都已經輪完一輪了，其實有很多使用上的問題，或是剛才所提到的學籍問題，或是必須要轉換住房的問題，我們現在都在搜整這些意見，會統一檢討，看後面的社宅出租辦法要不要再重新做一些修正，我想這個都值得檢討，但是要直接拉長租期，恐怕使用的效率會降低。"],["李委員坤城：對，我也知道現在社宅的數量還不夠，如果久住的話，也會讓需要的人可能就住不進去了，所以我才會講，因為現在內政部有「300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案」，這個專案裡面有特別的措施，譬如說我們有鼓勵婚育和加強關懷弱勢，對於符合資格者的租金，你們是補貼2,000元到8,000元，這還可以再加碼，譬如說：他育有未成年子女1人可以再加碼1.4倍，諸如此類、以此類推。經濟弱勢1.4倍、社會弱勢1.2倍，就是補貼會增加啦！我想說，如果是這樣子的話，租金補貼這部分的倍數可不可以再多一點？讓他們有機會啦！如果他們已經在這邊住很久，尤其是老人家，七十幾歲你要他搬走，真的，你叫他要去租房子，這真的可能會有困難，所以擴大租金補貼這個倍數是不是能夠再酌予調整或增加？如果萬一不得已，他們必須要搬離的話，他們也比較容易在附近找到房子。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。委員，我們會整體的討論和調配，因為這個部分還要考慮到我們的財源問題，就是撥補的問題。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["吳署長欣修：第二個，要以哪些族群，我想這個都還有討論的空間。"],["李委員坤城：但是我認為這個方向你們應該要好好的處理，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好，我們可以來討論。"],["李委員坤城：最後一個問題，部長跟署長請回。租屋應該是跟地政司有關系的吧？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。最近有一個新聞滿紅的，就是高雄有一個樋口飯糰店的租屋糾紛，後來房東說他不知道他租給他們的租金比同區域店面的平均租金還要便宜，這是他的說法啦！但是我們也知道，租房子的時候，多少的租金才是合理的價格？你們這裡有合理價格的評判標準嗎？"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告一下，這大概會有幾個管道，第一個就是有關住宅類的部分，因為我們現在有租金補貼，所以現在每半年我們都有公布租金的行情讓民眾知道。這個案子應該是商用的部分，一般店舖或是商用的部分，如果是透過仲介媒合的話，這個都要實價登錄，這個都可以提供公開查詢。如果是商用的部分，他也可以透過實價登錄的資料查詢。"],["李委員坤城：好，如果是房客跟房東之間出現租金的問題，你們現在都是用消保法處理就對了？"],["林代理司長家正：這個部分的話，因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為，如果是一般商用或是店舖用的話，他可以循鄉鎮市調解委員會的途徑處理。"],["李委員坤城：因為「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例」第六條有講到：「租賃住宅的租金，由出租人跟承租人約定，不適用土地法第九十七條的規定」，這是第六條的規定，但是第一條開宗明義就講得很清楚了：「為維護人民居住權，健全租賃住宅市場……」，我在想有關租金這方面應該不是放任，如果按照第六條來看的話，好像就是放任房東和房客在自由市場裡面去討論這個租金，但是如果我們要保障租客的話，其實這個在很多的先進國家，他們對於租金都有做一些立法上的介入，不是完全任由市場機制決定的啦！所以我想說，有關第六條這個部分，我們是不是也可以做一些修正？譬如說：如果房東要調漲房租的話，是不是就由原來的租金水準，然後再參考周邊住宅的租金水準，還有物價上漲率、出租人重大修繕所支出的費用，就房租上漲的要件、頻率、幅度加以限制，做為管制房租的手段？"],["林代理司長家正：有關住宅租賃的部分，我們會持續滾動檢討。委員剛才提的建議，其實我們也可以評估和檢討看看。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說，第一個，這不是交由市場決定；第二個，如果有什麼問題，就交由消保會或鄉鎮市調解委員會處理，其實「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例」第六條已經說得很清楚。"],["林代理司長家正：對，這個條例對於住宅類的部分，其實對於租屋族都有一些相關的保障，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK！時間有限就先到這裡，謝謝。"],["林代理司長家正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","下一位請黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","下一位請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}}