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{\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 501.906, \"end\": 502.127, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 502.127, \"end\": 502.907, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 502.907, \"end\": 504.169, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 504.169, \"end\": 504.349, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 504.349, \"end\": 505.29, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 505.29, \"end\": 505.61, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 505.61, \"end\": 505.791, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 505.791, \"end\": 506.211, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 506.211, \"end\": 506.572, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 506.572, \"end\": 507.813, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 507.813, \"end\": 508.053, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 508.053, \"end\": 508.654, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 508.654, \"end\": 508.794, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 508.794, \"end\": 508.814, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 509.835, \"end\": 524.204, \"text\": \"做這個決策的所以基本上當時我們最後委員會我也特別問過說是到哪一個城市有多少名單我都完全尊重那五位外聘的委員給我們提供的各種的建議那主秘不知情他也是這樣子跟著包庇啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 509.835, \"end\": 510.495, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 510.495, \"end\": 510.716, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 510.716, \"end\": 511.176, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 511.176, \"end\": 511.296, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 511.296, \"end\": 511.396, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 511.396, \"end\": 511.496, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 511.496, \"end\": 511.636, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 511.636, \"end\": 512.377, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 512.377, \"end\": 512.677, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 512.677, \"end\": 512.837, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 512.837, \"end\": 513.417, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 513.417, \"end\": 514.458, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 514.458, \"end\": 514.578, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 514.578, \"end\": 514.698, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 514.698, \"end\": 514.838, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 514.838, \"end\": 515.599, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 515.599, \"end\": 515.799, 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\"end\": 520.521, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 520.521, \"end\": 520.762, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 520.762, \"end\": 520.882, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 520.882, \"end\": 521.222, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 521.222, \"end\": 521.362, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 521.362, \"end\": 521.502, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 521.502, \"end\": 521.662, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 521.662, \"end\": 521.782, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 521.782, \"end\": 521.962, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 521.962, \"end\": 522.383, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 522.383, \"end\": 522.543, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 522.543, \"end\": 522.683, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 522.683, \"end\": 523.063, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 523.063, \"end\": 523.603, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 523.603, \"end\": 523.743, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 523.743, \"end\": 523.863, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 523.863, \"end\": 524.044, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"庇\", \"start\": 524.044, \"end\": 524.184, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 524.184, \"end\": 524.204, \"score\": 0.409}]}, {\"start\": 525.384, \"end\": 544.438, \"text\": \"基本上這個處理是當時的署長還有相關的人事相關的政風的在處理的所以這個是當時的外部委員非常的清楚我要看一下到時候那個署程懲處名單我們是一定要了解的但是我想請教為什麼環境部只有口頭告誡你不能內部先處理嗎除了交給行政院之外\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 525.384, \"end\": 525.545, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 525.545, \"end\": 525.725, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 525.725, \"end\": 526.405, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 526.405, \"end\": 526.605, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 526.605, \"end\": 527.226, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 527.226, \"end\": 527.386, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 527.386, \"end\": 528.266, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 528.266, \"end\": 528.487, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 528.487, \"end\": 528.927, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 528.927, \"end\": 529.327, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 529.327, \"end\": 529.567, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 529.567, \"end\": 529.848, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 529.848, \"end\": 530.228, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 530.228, \"end\": 530.328, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 530.328, \"end\": 530.688, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 530.688, \"end\": 530.868, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 530.868, \"end\": 531.229, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 531.229, \"end\": 531.389, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 531.389, \"end\": 531.589, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 531.589, \"end\": 531.729, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 531.729, \"end\": 532.95, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 532.95, \"end\": 533.07, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 533.07, \"end\": 533.33, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 533.33, \"end\": 533.49, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 533.49, \"end\": 533.63, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 533.63, \"end\": 533.93, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 533.93, \"end\": 534.01, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 534.01, \"end\": 534.111, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 534.111, \"end\": 534.251, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 534.251, \"end\": 534.351, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 534.351, \"end\": 534.391, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 534.391, \"end\": 534.491, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 534.491, \"end\": 534.651, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 534.651, \"end\": 534.791, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 534.791, \"end\": 534.891, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 534.891, \"end\": 535.171, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 535.171, \"end\": 535.311, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 535.311, \"end\": 535.552, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 535.552, \"end\": 535.892, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 535.892, \"end\": 536.052, \"score\": 0.542}, {\"word\": \"程\", 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\"end\": 538.554, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 538.554, \"end\": 539.714, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 539.714, \"end\": 540.015, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 540.015, \"end\": 540.375, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 540.375, \"end\": 540.495, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 540.495, \"end\": 540.675, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 540.675, \"end\": 540.755, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 540.755, \"end\": 540.875, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 540.875, \"end\": 541.196, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 541.196, \"end\": 541.936, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"誡\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 541.936, \"end\": 542.056, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 542.056, \"end\": 542.156, \"score\": 0.588}, {\"word\": \"能\", 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\"text\": \"其實第一個報委員他們很多委員已經沒有在很多的相關人已經沒有在部內工作了所以基本上而且他當時的權責他的位階不是我們環境部可以懲處的名單我們沒有辦法處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 545.058, \"end\": 545.338, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 545.338, \"end\": 546.119, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 546.119, \"end\": 547.4, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 547.4, \"end\": 547.68, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 547.68, \"end\": 548.101, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 548.101, \"end\": 548.281, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 548.281, \"end\": 548.461, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 548.461, \"end\": 548.741, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 548.741, \"end\": 548.981, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 548.981, \"end\": 549.061, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", 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\"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 552.284, \"end\": 552.484, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 552.484, \"end\": 552.704, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 552.704, \"end\": 552.864, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 552.864, \"end\": 552.984, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 552.984, \"end\": 553.084, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 553.084, \"end\": 553.205, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 553.205, \"end\": 553.425, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 553.425, \"end\": 553.525, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 553.525, \"end\": 553.985, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 553.985, \"end\": 554.426, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 554.426, \"end\": 555.006, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 555.006, \"end\": 555.126, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 555.126, \"end\": 555.206, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 555.206, \"end\": 555.606, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 555.606, \"end\": 555.707, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 555.707, \"end\": 555.827, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 555.827, \"end\": 556.287, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 556.287, \"end\": 556.427, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 556.427, \"end\": 556.567, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 556.567, \"end\": 556.727, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 556.727, \"end\": 558.469, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"懲\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 558.469, \"end\": 558.609, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 558.609, \"end\": 559.169, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 559.169, \"end\": 559.289, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 559.289, \"end\": 559.509, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 559.509, \"end\": 559.59, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 559.59, \"end\": 559.99, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 559.99, \"end\": 560.01, \"score\": 0.992}]}, {\"start\": 560.43, \"end\": 575.215, \"text\": \"我再請這個主席給我一兩分鐘部長你看一下這個東西左邊這張圖是受害人看到李建宇落網的新聞後他傳給當時的這個陳江華立委的訊息他感謝陳立委的關心這個案子也說他自己當年因為害怕不敢站出來這個據名檢舉但是他現在願意站出來因為當時他不敢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 560.43, \"end\": 560.57, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 560.57, \"end\": 561.791, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 561.791, \"end\": 561.931, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 561.931, \"end\": 562.031, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 562.031, \"end\": 562.151, \"score\": 0.57}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 562.151, \"end\": 562.411, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 562.411, \"end\": 562.751, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 562.751, \"end\": 562.971, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 562.971, \"end\": 563.111, \"score\": 0.51}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 563.111, \"end\": 563.251, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 563.251, \"end\": 563.331, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 563.331, \"end\": 563.851, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 563.851, \"end\": 564.151, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"左\", \"start\": 564.151, \"end\": 564.992, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 564.992, \"end\": 565.192, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 565.192, \"end\": 565.352, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 565.352, \"end\": 565.532, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 565.532, \"end\": 565.672, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 565.672, \"end\": 565.812, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 565.812, \"end\": 565.972, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 565.972, \"end\": 566.092, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 566.092, \"end\": 566.232, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"宇\", \"start\": 566.232, \"end\": 566.392, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 566.392, \"end\": 566.852, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 566.852, \"end\": 566.972, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 566.972, \"end\": 567.192, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"聞\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 567.192, \"end\": 567.993, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 567.993, \"end\": 568.933, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 568.933, \"end\": 569.413, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"江\", \"start\": 569.413, \"end\": 569.633, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 569.633, \"end\": 569.733, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 569.733, \"end\": 569.833, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 569.833, \"end\": 570.214, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 570.214, \"end\": 570.554, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 570.554, \"end\": 570.714, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 570.714, \"end\": 571.354, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 571.354, \"end\": 571.454, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 571.454, \"end\": 571.574, \"score\": 0.619}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 571.574, \"end\": 571.934, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 571.934, \"end\": 572.214, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 572.214, \"end\": 572.394, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 572.394, \"end\": 572.854, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 572.854, \"end\": 573.235, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 573.235, \"end\": 573.395, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 573.395, \"end\": 573.475, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 573.475, \"end\": 573.795, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 573.795, \"end\": 573.895, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 573.895, \"end\": 574.115, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 574.115, \"end\": 574.375, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 574.375, \"end\": 574.575, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 574.575, \"end\": 574.655, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"敢\", \"start\": 574.655, \"end\": 574.675, \"score\": 0.101}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 574.675, \"end\": 574.755, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 574.755, \"end\": 574.775, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 574.775, \"end\": 574.795, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 574.795, \"end\": 574.815, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 574.815, \"end\": 574.835, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 574.835, \"end\": 574.855, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 574.855, \"end\": 574.995, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 574.995, \"end\": 575.015, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 575.015, \"end\": 575.035, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 575.035, \"end\": 575.135, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 575.135, \"end\": 575.155, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 575.155, \"end\": 575.175, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 575.175, \"end\": 575.195, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"敢\", \"start\": 575.195, \"end\": 575.215, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 580.037, \"end\": 602.07, \"text\": \"但是現在他願意了 部長 你這次雖然已經落網但是應該還有更多受害者他沒有站出來了那部長如果你知道你願意為他們挺身而出嗎不要我們再去辦記者會了嗎不用不用了其實報告委員這個過程是一個非常長期的過程那我來了之後就一直宣告零容忍這個惡行很久了很久了而且我們也對於性行的教育我們部內大概辦了16場我來做16場\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 580.037, \"end\": 580.277, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 580.277, \"end\": 580.377, \"score\": 0.603}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 580.377, \"end\": 580.557, \"score\": 0.511}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 580.557, \"end\": 580.878, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 580.878, \"end\": 581.058, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"了\", 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,986 --> 00:00:07,227\n謝謝主席有請部長來請部長委員早部長早剛剛我也有鼓掌謝謝謝謝委員部長這個兩年前陳交法立委他曾經召開了這個好幾次的那個記者會他踢爆這個當時的那個叫環保署環境督察總隊隊長李建鈺的惡行那在社會壓力下這個當時環境這個環境部終於成立調查小組那後來\n\n2\n00:00:33,837 --> 00:01:00,391\n也證實這個陳立委他揭發的他不是空穴來風因為現在李建玉不但被監察院彈劾而且上週還被檢察官收押二郎雖已若往但正義仍會還沒有換回來為什麼我這樣講呢因為當初包庇他的人到現在都沒有得到應有的懲罰雖然這件事不是發生在您的任期內但是\n\n3\n00:01:01,411 --> 00:01:20,345\n部長你現在這個位置上你只好蓋瓜承受你同意嗎我同意好那就謝謝部長好部長那部長你看看這是監察院的彈劾報告欸這個是比過去什麼勞動部什麼我們請他做衛福部做報告他們都沒有像監察院做這麼好這些都是公開的資訊喔請你稍微瀏覽一下好簡單你看有多誇張時間從108年開始而且他對身邊的屬下學員甚至廠商\n\n4\n00:01:29,272 --> 00:01:43,928\n然後他的地點不只是辦公室私密室甚至這個高鐵飛機上甚至在餐會上中目睽睽之下都進行這個明目張膽的騷擾那這幾年受害的人在監察院報告至少11個\n\n5\n00:01:45,490 --> 00:01:58,361\n可是我相信一定不止這個數字因為根據所有研究報告都說霸凌、性騷、性侵這個都是冰山一角啦因為很多人是不敢沒有那個勇氣站出來申訴請問部長你稍微看過這個資料嗎我都看過好謝謝部長\n\n6\n00:02:01,684 --> 00:02:21,906\n那我們來看一下李建宇被姦談約談的辯詞對於是否性騷女同仁他說我的型個性較為外放穿著比較帥氣也會關心女性同仁只要對方拒絕我一定不會做這件事你知道這個邏輯是什麼對方拒絕我一定不會做表示我會做是因為對方沒拒絕\n\n7\n00:02:23,167 --> 00:02:46,137\n當然他會是辯解說這是我的壞習慣但我沒那個意思對方一定是跟我關係比較好我才會那麼熟悉去碰觸他性騷擾還能如此理直氣壯部長那我最憤怒的就是至少有三位受害人他舉證歷歷的辯持說李建鈺竟然不思悔改他檢討的是被害人\n\n8\n00:02:46,917 --> 00:02:57,506\n他說為什麼在我任內沒有反應等到我離開的時候才說我的行為不會過分啊為什麼當時不說部長這句話你聽不下去嗎聽不下去OK謝謝你聽不下去那我想問你你為什麼聽不下去\n\n9\n00:03:02,489 --> 00:03:20,274\n因為這個是基本一個做人的一個原則而且性平這個是一個基本的態度我覺得他在整個證詞裡面我看到的他是完全是不符合的那我再跟您說為什麼他不敢說因為他們說他們不敢講為什麼任內他不敢講因為巴佩秋後算賬就是說\n\n10\n00:03:23,835 --> 00:03:37,707\n一個人可以這樣子去做背後一定有更大的官威或力量在支撐著他包庇他而且李金玉他很大耶位高權重督察總隊隊長他的下屬要有多大的勇氣才敢站出來部長\n\n11\n00:03:39,349 --> 00:03:55,211\n監察院的談核報告有提揭露有兩個同仁在調查報告裡面都表示畏懼在提起申訴後在職務上被刁難或是說會被報復這種心理壓抑而且調查期間他還在職那萬一申訴不成他以後怎麼辦\n\n12\n00:03:56,465 --> 00:04:10,963\n他們就這樣寫我覺得捐款報告真的是很棒就其他的部門如果遇到類似要好好學習所以他們根本不敢提申訴就這樣只想遭到性騷擾性侵害的困境部長你能理解嗎我可以理解\n\n13\n00:04:11,624 --> 00:04:31,113\n那我要講的就是為什麼不敢講一樣啊在之前台大這個婦產科名醫對女醫師的騷擾這些女醫師都等到專科醫師考完她也才敢講話因為她可以在各個有權威嘛有這個分量她可以在後面的後續很多事情來為難她那之前這個衛福部主秘也是啊\n\n14\n00:04:31,613 --> 00:04:53,204\n他一旦這個事發案發後他們才發現說其實已經行之多年而且對象是很廣的這個是一律的這個一律都是性騷霸凌等等都是如此那部長為什麼被害人有那麼擔心為什麼李建鈺能夠如此囂張一而再再而上而且多達十幾位的女性對他們對這十幾位人伸出狼爪而且時間長達很多年為什麼因為公部門被人家詬病的最\n\n15\n00:05:00,067 --> 00:05:14,698\n重要的一點叫做官官相護所以很不可思議的107年就有人向環保署陳情沒有回應108年直接向行政院陳情沒有回應所以李建運有恃無恐行政院越來越誇張\n\n16\n00:05:16,219 --> 00:05:45,159\n受害人越來越多甚至112年6月喔他再次向環保署署長信箱陳情依然石沉大海直到反映給當時的陳家華立友召開記者會在社會壓力下才啟動調查所以我在這裡證明要向媒體各位朋友證明其實立法委員的存在是非常重要的監督行政部門的做法尤其在野黨的立委那部長請問這麼多年來誰在包庇誰在押案\n\n17\n00:05:46,540 --> 00:05:56,891\n誰讓這些受害者求助無門呢當時的署長張子敬當時的環保署主秘你現在的政務次長葉俊宏沒有責任嗎請部長回答\n\n18\n00:05:58,083 --> 00:06:25,208\n好報告委喔這個第一個是說這次他會被收押是我們的系統讓同仁能夠放心所以其實我也我幾個月前介紹同仁說希望能夠對李鑑宇提告那我也請我們同仁所有的這個協助全部我們都無償的能夠來支持我們的同仁所以他也去提告了最後我也很高興前一兩個一個多禮拜前看到說他的新聞那在這個同時呢其實我們也組成了一個委員會\n\n19\n00:06:25,948 --> 00:06:44,501\n那我必須跟委員報告我們組成一個外部的委員會來檢討我們的所有的行政流程那的的確也提出了懲處名單那這個懲處名單呢有些人不在我們的部內的職務工作那有些人呢是還在所以基本上呢不在我們部內工作或是說他位階比較高的\n\n20\n00:06:44,841 --> 00:07:06,390\n我們都有報到行政院也報到監察院他們來處理所以委員說的這個懲處的人員我們經由外部專家委員都有列出一些人員那這個我們也能送到監察院也讓行政院知道那這個過程當中我們行政院院長卓龍泰他也非常支持我該辦就辦因為所有外部委員出來的意見該怎麼樣的處罰我就照那個去做處理\n\n21\n00:07:06,758 --> 00:07:18,084\n所以你調查的那個調查委員小組事實上是有多數是屬於外部委員會五個全部是外部委員我們是外部委員來調查我們當時的行政流程有沒有瑕疵\n\n22\n00:07:19,124 --> 00:07:40,913\n部長這個就是說這個是一個典範啦我必須說就是這個調查過程我也覺得很正面肯定那監察院幾天前說他有糾正環境部嘛要議處所以你也去做了但是他有提到說環境部除了口頭報告當然也有一些剛剛你提到說有一些懲處條這個名單但是我想問部長有包括張子敬跟葉俊宏嗎\n\n23\n00:07:42,992 --> 00:08:06,763\n那不是機密啊?有包括他嗎?基本上有的有包括,有的有包括在裡面署長跟署密耶?當時的有一位的確是他沒有在職位上了他的確是有責任的那我們也報告行政院,因為他也退休了那另外一個呢,到底是不是責任?其實那個委員會有經歷詳細的討論過是誰有責任?誰看過這個問題?\n\n24\n00:08:11,595 --> 00:08:28,814\n主密是擁有整個部門的這個機密資料的人這個調查本來是機密性的但是他是可以看這個資料這個主密現在是你的次長對報告委員這個我們有詢問過因為這當時在整個處理這個程序當中是有在署長在\n\n25\n00:08:29,835 --> 00:08:44,204\n做這個決策的所以基本上當時我們最後委員會我也特別問過說是到哪一個城市有多少名單我都完全尊重那五位外聘的委員給我們提供的各種的建議那主秘不知情他也是這樣子跟著包庇啊\n\n26\n00:08:45,384 --> 00:09:04,438\n基本上這個處理是當時的署長還有相關的人事相關的政風的在處理的所以這個是當時的外部委員非常的清楚我要看一下到時候那個署程懲處名單我們是一定要了解的但是我想請教為什麼環境部只有口頭告誡你不能內部先處理嗎除了交給行政院之外\n\n27\n00:09:05,058 --> 00:09:20,010\n其實第一個報委員他們很多委員已經沒有在很多的相關人已經沒有在部內工作了所以基本上而且他當時的權責他的位階不是我們環境部可以懲處的名單我們沒有辦法處理\n\n28\n00:09:20,430 --> 00:09:35,215\n我再請這個主席給我一兩分鐘部長你看一下這個東西左邊這張圖是受害人看到李建宇落網的新聞後他傳給當時的這個陳江華立委的訊息他感謝陳立委的關心這個案子也說他自己當年因為害怕不敢站出來這個據名檢舉但是他現在願意站出來因為當時他不敢\n\n29\n00:09:40,037 --> 00:10:02,070\n但是現在他願意了部長你這次雖然已經落網但是應該還有更多受害者他沒有站出來了那部長如果你知道你願意為他們挺身而出嗎不要我們再去辦記者會了嗎不用不用了其實報告委員這個過程是一個非常長期的過程那我來了之後就一直宣告零容忍這個惡行很久了很久了而且我們也對於性行的教育我們部內大概辦了16場我來做16場\n\n30\n00:10:04,011 --> 00:10:30,394\n所以基本上呢讓同仁能夠放心這是很重要的一環部長你看這裡面這張圖那是崔少哲朋友傳給我的我也轉達部長崔少哲幹了今日的報導因為我認為彭部長要肯定你喔謝謝他是有擔當的這崔少哲自己來的喔但是他們很在意當年的包庇者沒有處理一樣嘛跟我今天跟你談的時候也是這個還是因此當時包庇所以後來有更多人受害嘛\n\n31\n00:10:30,834 --> 00:10:55,141\n受害範圍更廣嘛所以包庇者很重要啊這個包庇者對包庇者懲處為什麼我說雖然他落網了當事人但是這個正義還沒有回來所以你看他們肯定你但是他覺得包庇者如果不處理這不是他們所見的我覺得一個人能夠長期做壞事而且能夠得逞尤其在職場包庇者是很重要的靠山\n\n32\n00:10:56,121 --> 00:11:13,558\n部長我相信你是有正義感的因為我對你這次的調查報告剛剛說明我是相當滿意但是受害者也這樣反應給我們所以我要跟部長說包庇者你一定要懲處一定要有適當的處分不是說你剛剛解釋當然你一直都沒提到名字但是我覺得\n\n33\n00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:39,825\n他們才是關鍵啊是是委員放心這個因為調查是有一定的程序不是說我誰有責任這是經過一個委員會那至於說他到底懲處誰因為有些的職位比較高這個不是我可以懲處的是上面那我也跟卓院長報告他全力支持那後續應該會開會所以向環境部對這個新上岸的這一次的調查報告能夠作為所有行政部門的一個典範我們很期待好謝謝好謝謝陳教授委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4986\t7227\t謝謝主席有請部長來請部長委員早部長早剛剛我也有鼓掌謝謝謝謝委員部長這個兩年前陳交法立委他曾經召開了這個好幾次的那個記者會他踢爆這個當時的那個叫環保署環境督察總隊隊長李建鈺的惡行那在社會壓力下這個當時環境這個環境部終於成立調查小組那後來\n33837\t60391\t也證實這個陳立委他揭發的他不是空穴來風因為現在李建玉不但被監察院彈劾而且上週還被檢察官收押二郎雖已若往但正義仍會還沒有換回來為什麼我這樣講呢因為當初包庇他的人到現在都沒有得到應有的懲罰雖然這件事不是發生在您的任期內但是\n61411\t80345\t部長你現在這個位置上你只好蓋瓜承受你同意嗎我同意好那就謝謝部長好部長那部長你看看這是監察院的彈劾報告欸這個是比過去什麼勞動部什麼我們請他做衛福部做報告他們都沒有像監察院做這麼好這些都是公開的資訊喔請你稍微瀏覽一下好簡單你看有多誇張時間從108年開始而且他對身邊的屬下學員甚至廠商\n89272\t103928\t然後他的地點不只是辦公室私密室甚至這個高鐵飛機上甚至在餐會上中目睽睽之下都進行這個明目張膽的騷擾那這幾年受害的人在監察院報告至少11個\n105490\t118361\t可是我相信一定不止這個數字因為根據所有研究報告都說霸凌、性騷、性侵這個都是冰山一角啦因為很多人是不敢沒有那個勇氣站出來申訴請問部長你稍微看過這個資料嗎我都看過好謝謝部長\n121684\t141906\t那我們來看一下李建宇被姦談約談的辯詞對於是否性騷女同仁他說我的型個性較為外放穿著比較帥氣也會關心女性同仁只要對方拒絕我一定不會做這件事你知道這個邏輯是什麼對方拒絕我一定不會做表示我會做是因為對方沒拒絕\n143167\t166137\t當然他會是辯解說這是我的壞習慣但我沒那個意思對方一定是跟我關係比較好我才會那麼熟悉去碰觸他性騷擾還能如此理直氣壯部長那我最憤怒的就是至少有三位受害人他舉證歷歷的辯持說李建鈺竟然不思悔改他檢討的是被害人\n166917\t177506\t他說為什麼在我任內沒有反應等到我離開的時候才說我的行為不會過分啊為什麼當時不說部長這句話你聽不下去嗎聽不下去OK謝謝你聽不下去那我想問你你為什麼聽不下去\n182489\t200274\t因為這個是基本一個做人的一個原則而且性平這個是一個基本的態度我覺得他在整個證詞裡面我看到的他是完全是不符合的那我再跟您說為什麼他不敢說因為他們說他們不敢講為什麼任內他不敢講因為巴佩秋後算賬就是說\n203835\t217707\t一個人可以這樣子去做背後一定有更大的官威或力量在支撐著他包庇他而且李金玉他很大耶位高權重督察總隊隊長他的下屬要有多大的勇氣才敢站出來部長\n219349\t235211\t監察院的談核報告有提揭露有兩個同仁在調查報告裡面都表示畏懼在提起申訴後在職務上被刁難或是說會被報復這種心理壓抑而且調查期間他還在職那萬一申訴不成他以後怎麼辦\n236465\t250963\t他們就這樣寫 我覺得捐款報告真的是很棒就其他的部門如果遇到類似要好好學習所以他們根本不敢提申訴就這樣只想遭到性騷擾性侵害的困境部長你能理解嗎我可以理解\n251624\t271113\t那我要講的就是為什麼不敢講一樣啊在之前台大這個婦產科名醫對女醫師的騷擾這些女醫師都等到專科醫師考完她也才敢講話因為她可以在各個有權威嘛有這個分量她可以在後面的後續很多事情來為難她那之前這個衛福部主秘也是啊\n271613\t293204\t他一旦這個事發案發後他們才發現說其實已經行之多年而且對象是很廣的這個是一律的這個一律都是性騷霸凌等等都是如此那部長為什麼被害人有那麼擔心為什麼李建鈺能夠如此囂張一而再再而上而且多達十幾位的女性對他們對這十幾位人伸出狼爪而且時間長達很多年為什麼因為公部門被人家詬病的最\n300067\t314698\t重要的一點叫做官官相護所以很不可思議的107年就有人向環保署陳情沒有回應108年直接向行政院陳情沒有回應所以李建運有恃無恐行政院越來越誇張\n316219\t345159\t受害人越來越多甚至112年6月喔他再次向環保署署長信箱陳情依然石沉大海直到反映給當時的陳家華立友召開記者會在社會壓力下才啟動調查所以我在這裡證明要向媒體各位朋友證明其實立法委員的存在是非常重要的監督行政部門的做法尤其在野黨的立委那部長請問這麼多年來誰在包庇誰在押案\n346540\t356891\t誰讓這些受害者求助無門呢當時的署長張子敬當時的環保署主秘你現在的政務次長葉俊宏沒有責任嗎請部長回答\n358083\t385208\t好 報告委喔 這個第一個是說這次他會被收押是我們的系統讓同仁能夠放心所以其實我也 我幾個月前介紹同仁說希望能夠對李鑑宇提告那我也請我們同仁所有的這個協助全部我們都無償的能夠來支持我們的同仁所以他也去提告了最後我也很高興前一兩個 一個多禮拜前看到說他的新聞那在這個同時呢 其實我們也組成了一個委員會\n385948\t404501\t那我必須跟委員報告我們組成一個外部的委員會來檢討我們的所有的行政流程那的的確也提出了懲處名單那這個懲處名單呢有些人不在我們的部內的職務工作那有些人呢是還在所以基本上呢不在我們部內工作或是說他位階比較高的\n404841\t426390\t我們都有報到行政院也報到監察院他們來處理所以委員說的這個懲處的人員我們經由外部專家委員都有列出一些人員那這個我們也能送到監察院也讓行政院知道那這個過程當中我們行政院院長卓龍泰他也非常支持我該辦就辦因為所有外部委員出來的意見該怎麼樣的處罰我就照那個去做處理\n426758\t438084\t所以你調查的那個調查委員小組事實上是有多數是屬於外部委員會五個全部是外部委員我們是外部委員來調查我們當時的行政流程有沒有瑕疵\n439124\t460913\t部長這個就是說這個是一個典範啦我必須說就是這個調查過程我也覺得很正面肯定那監察院幾天前說他有糾正環境部嘛要議處所以你也去做了但是他有提到說環境部除了口頭報告當然也有一些剛剛你提到說有一些懲處條這個名單但是我想問部長有包括張子敬跟葉俊宏嗎\n462992\t486763\t那不是機密啊?有包括他嗎?基本上有的有包括,有的有包括在裡面署長跟署密耶?當時的有一位的確是他沒有在職位上了他的確是有責任的那我們也報告行政院,因為他也退休了那另外一個呢,到底是不是責任?其實那個委員會有經歷詳細的討論過是誰有責任?誰看過這個問題?\n491595\t508814\t主密是擁有整個部門的這個機密資料的人這個調查本來是機密性的但是他是可以看這個資料這個主密現在是你的次長對 報告委員這個我們有詢問過因為這當時在整個處理這個程序當中是有在署長在\n509835\t524204\t做這個決策的所以基本上當時我們最後委員會我也特別問過說是到哪一個城市有多少名單我都完全尊重那五位外聘的委員給我們提供的各種的建議那主秘不知情他也是這樣子跟著包庇啊\n525384\t544438\t基本上這個處理是當時的署長還有相關的人事相關的政風的在處理的所以這個是當時的外部委員非常的清楚我要看一下到時候那個署程懲處名單我們是一定要了解的但是我想請教為什麼環境部只有口頭告誡你不能內部先處理嗎除了交給行政院之外\n545058\t560010\t其實第一個報委員他們很多委員已經沒有在很多的相關人已經沒有在部內工作了所以基本上而且他當時的權責他的位階不是我們環境部可以懲處的名單我們沒有辦法處理\n560430\t575215\t我再請這個主席給我一兩分鐘部長你看一下這個東西左邊這張圖是受害人看到李建宇落網的新聞後他傳給當時的這個陳江華立委的訊息他感謝陳立委的關心這個案子也說他自己當年因為害怕不敢站出來這個據名檢舉但是他現在願意站出來因為當時他不敢\n580037\t602070\t但是現在他願意了 部長 你這次雖然已經落網但是應該還有更多受害者他沒有站出來了那部長如果你知道你願意為他們挺身而出嗎不要我們再去辦記者會了嗎不用不用了其實報告委員這個過程是一個非常長期的過程那我來了之後就一直宣告零容忍這個惡行很久了很久了而且我們也對於性行的教育我們部內大概辦了16場我來做16場\n604011\t630394\t所以基本上呢 讓同仁能夠放心這是很重要的一環部長 你看這裡面這張圖 那是崔少哲朋友傳給我的我也轉達部長 崔少哲幹了今日的報導因為我認為彭部長 要肯定你喔謝謝他是有擔當的 這崔少哲自己來的喔但是他們很在意當年的包庇者沒有處理一樣嘛 跟我今天跟你談的時候也是這個 還是因此當時包庇所以後來有更多人受害嘛\n630834\t655141\t受害範圍更廣嘛所以包庇者很重要啊這個包庇者對包庇者懲處為什麼我說雖然他落網了當事人但是這個正義還沒有回來所以你看他們肯定你但是他覺得包庇者如果不處理這不是他們所見的我覺得一個人能夠長期做壞事而且能夠得逞尤其在職場包庇者是很重要的靠山\n656121\t673558\t部長我相信你是有正義感的因為我對你這次的調查報告剛剛說明我是相當滿意但是受害者也這樣反應給我們所以我要跟部長說包庇者你一定要懲處一定要有適當的處分不是說你剛剛解釋當然你一直都沒提到名字但是我覺得\n674679\t699825\t他們才是關鍵啊是是委員放心這個因為調查是有一定的程序不是說我誰有責任這是經過一個委員會那至於說他到底懲處誰因為有些的職位比較高這個不是我可以懲處的是上面那我也跟卓院長報告他全力支持那後續應該會開會所以向環境部對這個新上岸的這一次的調查報告能夠作為所有行政部門的一個典範我們很期待好謝謝好謝謝陳教授委員謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請部長來請部長委員早部長早剛剛我也有鼓掌謝謝謝謝委員部長這個兩年前陳交法立委他曾經召開了這個好幾次的那個記者會他踢爆這個當時的那個叫環保署環境督察總隊隊長李建鈺的惡行那在社會壓力下這個當時環境這個環境部終於成立調查小組那後來\n也證實這個陳立委他揭發的他不是空穴來風因為現在李建玉不但被監察院彈劾而且上週還被檢察官收押二郎雖已若往但正義仍會還沒有換回來為什麼我這樣講呢因為當初包庇他的人到現在都沒有得到應有的懲罰雖然這件事不是發生在您的任期內但是\n部長你現在這個位置上你只好蓋瓜承受你同意嗎我同意好那就謝謝部長好部長那部長你看看這是監察院的彈劾報告欸這個是比過去什麼勞動部什麼我們請他做衛福部做報告他們都沒有像監察院做這麼好這些都是公開的資訊喔請你稍微瀏覽一下好簡單你看有多誇張時間從108年開始而且他對身邊的屬下學員甚至廠商\n然後他的地點不只是辦公室私密室甚至這個高鐵飛機上甚至在餐會上中目睽睽之下都進行這個明目張膽的騷擾那這幾年受害的人在監察院報告至少11個\n可是我相信一定不止這個數字因為根據所有研究報告都說霸凌、性騷、性侵這個都是冰山一角啦因為很多人是不敢沒有那個勇氣站出來申訴請問部長你稍微看過這個資料嗎我都看過好謝謝部長\n那我們來看一下李建宇被姦談約談的辯詞對於是否性騷女同仁他說我的型個性較為外放穿著比較帥氣也會關心女性同仁只要對方拒絕我一定不會做這件事你知道這個邏輯是什麼對方拒絕我一定不會做表示我會做是因為對方沒拒絕\n當然他會是辯解說這是我的壞習慣但我沒那個意思對方一定是跟我關係比較好我才會那麼熟悉去碰觸他性騷擾還能如此理直氣壯部長那我最憤怒的就是至少有三位受害人他舉證歷歷的辯持說李建鈺竟然不思悔改他檢討的是被害人\n他說為什麼在我任內沒有反應等到我離開的時候才說我的行為不會過分啊為什麼當時不說部長這句話你聽不下去嗎聽不下去OK謝謝你聽不下去那我想問你你為什麼聽不下去\n因為這個是基本一個做人的一個原則而且性平這個是一個基本的態度我覺得他在整個證詞裡面我看到的他是完全是不符合的那我再跟您說為什麼他不敢說因為他們說他們不敢講為什麼任內他不敢講因為巴佩秋後算賬就是說\n一個人可以這樣子去做背後一定有更大的官威或力量在支撐著他包庇他而且李金玉他很大耶位高權重督察總隊隊長他的下屬要有多大的勇氣才敢站出來部長\n監察院的談核報告有提揭露有兩個同仁在調查報告裡面都表示畏懼在提起申訴後在職務上被刁難或是說會被報復這種心理壓抑而且調查期間他還在職那萬一申訴不成他以後怎麼辦\n他們就這樣寫 我覺得捐款報告真的是很棒就其他的部門如果遇到類似要好好學習所以他們根本不敢提申訴就這樣只想遭到性騷擾性侵害的困境部長你能理解嗎我可以理解\n那我要講的就是為什麼不敢講一樣啊在之前台大這個婦產科名醫對女醫師的騷擾這些女醫師都等到專科醫師考完她也才敢講話因為她可以在各個有權威嘛有這個分量她可以在後面的後續很多事情來為難她那之前這個衛福部主秘也是啊\n他一旦這個事發案發後他們才發現說其實已經行之多年而且對象是很廣的這個是一律的這個一律都是性騷霸凌等等都是如此那部長為什麼被害人有那麼擔心為什麼李建鈺能夠如此囂張一而再再而上而且多達十幾位的女性對他們對這十幾位人伸出狼爪而且時間長達很多年為什麼因為公部門被人家詬病的最\n重要的一點叫做官官相護所以很不可思議的107年就有人向環保署陳情沒有回應108年直接向行政院陳情沒有回應所以李建運有恃無恐行政院越來越誇張\n受害人越來越多甚至112年6月喔他再次向環保署署長信箱陳情依然石沉大海直到反映給當時的陳家華立友召開記者會在社會壓力下才啟動調查所以我在這裡證明要向媒體各位朋友證明其實立法委員的存在是非常重要的監督行政部門的做法尤其在野黨的立委那部長請問這麼多年來誰在包庇誰在押案\n誰讓這些受害者求助無門呢當時的署長張子敬當時的環保署主秘你現在的政務次長葉俊宏沒有責任嗎請部長回答\n好 報告委喔 這個第一個是說這次他會被收押是我們的系統讓同仁能夠放心所以其實我也 我幾個月前介紹同仁說希望能夠對李鑑宇提告那我也請我們同仁所有的這個協助全部我們都無償的能夠來支持我們的同仁所以他也去提告了最後我也很高興前一兩個 一個多禮拜前看到說他的新聞那在這個同時呢 其實我們也組成了一個委員會\n那我必須跟委員報告我們組成一個外部的委員會來檢討我們的所有的行政流程那的的確也提出了懲處名單那這個懲處名單呢有些人不在我們的部內的職務工作那有些人呢是還在所以基本上呢不在我們部內工作或是說他位階比較高的\n我們都有報到行政院也報到監察院他們來處理所以委員說的這個懲處的人員我們經由外部專家委員都有列出一些人員那這個我們也能送到監察院也讓行政院知道那這個過程當中我們行政院院長卓龍泰他也非常支持我該辦就辦因為所有外部委員出來的意見該怎麼樣的處罰我就照那個去做處理\n所以你調查的那個調查委員小組事實上是有多數是屬於外部委員會五個全部是外部委員我們是外部委員來調查我們當時的行政流程有沒有瑕疵\n部長這個就是說這個是一個典範啦我必須說就是這個調查過程我也覺得很正面肯定那監察院幾天前說他有糾正環境部嘛要議處所以你也去做了但是他有提到說環境部除了口頭報告當然也有一些剛剛你提到說有一些懲處條這個名單但是我想問部長有包括張子敬跟葉俊宏嗎\n那不是機密啊?有包括他嗎?基本上有的有包括,有的有包括在裡面署長跟署密耶?當時的有一位的確是他沒有在職位上了他的確是有責任的那我們也報告行政院,因為他也退休了那另外一個呢,到底是不是責任?其實那個委員會有經歷詳細的討論過是誰有責任?誰看過這個問題?\n主密是擁有整個部門的這個機密資料的人這個調查本來是機密性的但是他是可以看這個資料這個主密現在是你的次長對 報告委員這個我們有詢問過因為這當時在整個處理這個程序當中是有在署長在\n做這個決策的所以基本上當時我們最後委員會我也特別問過說是到哪一個城市有多少名單我都完全尊重那五位外聘的委員給我們提供的各種的建議那主秘不知情他也是這樣子跟著包庇啊\n基本上這個處理是當時的署長還有相關的人事相關的政風的在處理的所以這個是當時的外部委員非常的清楚我要看一下到時候那個署程懲處名單我們是一定要了解的但是我想請教為什麼環境部只有口頭告誡你不能內部先處理嗎除了交給行政院之外\n其實第一個報委員他們很多委員已經沒有在很多的相關人已經沒有在部內工作了所以基本上而且他當時的權責他的位階不是我們環境部可以懲處的名單我們沒有辦法處理\n我再請這個主席給我一兩分鐘部長你看一下這個東西左邊這張圖是受害人看到李建宇落網的新聞後他傳給當時的這個陳江華立委的訊息他感謝陳立委的關心這個案子也說他自己當年因為害怕不敢站出來這個據名檢舉但是他現在願意站出來因為當時他不敢\n但是現在他願意了 部長 你這次雖然已經落網但是應該還有更多受害者他沒有站出來了那部長如果你知道你願意為他們挺身而出嗎不要我們再去辦記者會了嗎不用不用了其實報告委員這個過程是一個非常長期的過程那我來了之後就一直宣告零容忍這個惡行很久了很久了而且我們也對於性行的教育我們部內大概辦了16場我來做16場\n所以基本上呢 讓同仁能夠放心這是很重要的一環部長 你看這裡面這張圖 那是崔少哲朋友傳給我的我也轉達部長 崔少哲幹了今日的報導因為我認為彭部長 要肯定你喔謝謝他是有擔當的 這崔少哲自己來的喔但是他們很在意當年的包庇者沒有處理一樣嘛 跟我今天跟你談的時候也是這個 還是因此當時包庇所以後來有更多人受害嘛\n受害範圍更廣嘛所以包庇者很重要啊這個包庇者對包庇者懲處為什麼我說雖然他落網了當事人但是這個正義還沒有回來所以你看他們肯定你但是他覺得包庇者如果不處理這不是他們所見的我覺得一個人能夠長期做壞事而且能夠得逞尤其在職場包庇者是很重要的靠山\n部長我相信你是有正義感的因為我對你這次的調查報告剛剛說明我是相當滿意但是受害者也這樣反應給我們所以我要跟部長說包庇者你一定要懲處一定要有適當的處分不是說你剛剛解釋當然你一直都沒提到名字但是我覺得\n他們才是關鍵啊是是委員放心這個因為調查是有一定的程序不是說我誰有責任這是經過一個委員會那至於說他到底懲處誰因為有些的職位比較高這個不是我可以懲處的是上面那我也跟卓院長報告他全力支持那後續應該會開會所以向環境部對這個新上岸的這一次的調查報告能夠作為所有行政部門的一個典範我們很期待好謝謝好謝謝陳教授委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.986 --> 00:07.227\n謝謝主席有請部長來請部長委員早部長早剛剛我也有鼓掌謝謝謝謝委員部長這個兩年前陳交法立委他曾經召開了這個好幾次的那個記者會他踢爆這個當時的那個叫環保署環境督察總隊隊長李建鈺的惡行那在社會壓力下這個當時環境這個環境部終於成立調查小組那後來\n\n00:33.837 --> 01:00.391\n也證實這個陳立委他揭發的他不是空穴來風因為現在李建玉不但被監察院彈劾而且上週還被檢察官收押二郎雖已若往但正義仍會還沒有換回來為什麼我這樣講呢因為當初包庇他的人到現在都沒有得到應有的懲罰雖然這件事不是發生在您的任期內但是\n\n01:01.411 --> 01:20.345\n部長你現在這個位置上你只好蓋瓜承受你同意嗎我同意好那就謝謝部長好部長那部長你看看這是監察院的彈劾報告欸這個是比過去什麼勞動部什麼我們請他做衛福部做報告他們都沒有像監察院做這麼好這些都是公開的資訊喔請你稍微瀏覽一下好簡單你看有多誇張時間從108年開始而且他對身邊的屬下學員甚至廠商\n\n01:29.272 --> 01:43.928\n然後他的地點不只是辦公室私密室甚至這個高鐵飛機上甚至在餐會上中目睽睽之下都進行這個明目張膽的騷擾那這幾年受害的人在監察院報告至少11個\n\n01:45.490 --> 01:58.361\n可是我相信一定不止這個數字因為根據所有研究報告都說霸凌、性騷、性侵這個都是冰山一角啦因為很多人是不敢沒有那個勇氣站出來申訴請問部長你稍微看過這個資料嗎我都看過好謝謝部長\n\n02:01.684 --> 02:21.906\n那我們來看一下李建宇被姦談約談的辯詞對於是否性騷女同仁他說我的型個性較為外放穿著比較帥氣也會關心女性同仁只要對方拒絕我一定不會做這件事你知道這個邏輯是什麼對方拒絕我一定不會做表示我會做是因為對方沒拒絕\n\n02:23.167 --> 02:46.137\n當然他會是辯解說這是我的壞習慣但我沒那個意思對方一定是跟我關係比較好我才會那麼熟悉去碰觸他性騷擾還能如此理直氣壯部長那我最憤怒的就是至少有三位受害人他舉證歷歷的辯持說李建鈺竟然不思悔改他檢討的是被害人\n\n02:46.917 --> 02:57.506\n他說為什麼在我任內沒有反應等到我離開的時候才說我的行為不會過分啊為什麼當時不說部長這句話你聽不下去嗎聽不下去OK謝謝你聽不下去那我想問你你為什麼聽不下去\n\n03:02.489 --> 03:20.274\n因為這個是基本一個做人的一個原則而且性平這個是一個基本的態度我覺得他在整個證詞裡面我看到的他是完全是不符合的那我再跟您說為什麼他不敢說因為他們說他們不敢講為什麼任內他不敢講因為巴佩秋後算賬就是說\n\n03:23.835 --> 03:37.707\n一個人可以這樣子去做背後一定有更大的官威或力量在支撐著他包庇他而且李金玉他很大耶位高權重督察總隊隊長他的下屬要有多大的勇氣才敢站出來部長\n\n03:39.349 --> 03:55.211\n監察院的談核報告有提揭露有兩個同仁在調查報告裡面都表示畏懼在提起申訴後在職務上被刁難或是說會被報復這種心理壓抑而且調查期間他還在職那萬一申訴不成他以後怎麼辦\n\n03:56.465 --> 04:10.963\n他們就這樣寫我覺得捐款報告真的是很棒就其他的部門如果遇到類似要好好學習所以他們根本不敢提申訴就這樣只想遭到性騷擾性侵害的困境部長你能理解嗎我可以理解\n\n04:11.624 --> 04:31.113\n那我要講的就是為什麼不敢講一樣啊在之前台大這個婦產科名醫對女醫師的騷擾這些女醫師都等到專科醫師考完她也才敢講話因為她可以在各個有權威嘛有這個分量她可以在後面的後續很多事情來為難她那之前這個衛福部主秘也是啊\n\n04:31.613 --> 04:53.204\n他一旦這個事發案發後他們才發現說其實已經行之多年而且對象是很廣的這個是一律的這個一律都是性騷霸凌等等都是如此那部長為什麼被害人有那麼擔心為什麼李建鈺能夠如此囂張一而再再而上而且多達十幾位的女性對他們對這十幾位人伸出狼爪而且時間長達很多年為什麼因為公部門被人家詬病的最\n\n05:00.067 --> 05:14.698\n重要的一點叫做官官相護所以很不可思議的107年就有人向環保署陳情沒有回應108年直接向行政院陳情沒有回應所以李建運有恃無恐行政院越來越誇張\n\n05:16.219 --> 05:45.159\n受害人越來越多甚至112年6月喔他再次向環保署署長信箱陳情依然石沉大海直到反映給當時的陳家華立友召開記者會在社會壓力下才啟動調查所以我在這裡證明要向媒體各位朋友證明其實立法委員的存在是非常重要的監督行政部門的做法尤其在野黨的立委那部長請問這麼多年來誰在包庇誰在押案\n\n05:46.540 --> 05:56.891\n誰讓這些受害者求助無門呢當時的署長張子敬當時的環保署主秘你現在的政務次長葉俊宏沒有責任嗎請部長回答\n\n05:58.083 --> 06:25.208\n好報告委喔這個第一個是說這次他會被收押是我們的系統讓同仁能夠放心所以其實我也我幾個月前介紹同仁說希望能夠對李鑑宇提告那我也請我們同仁所有的這個協助全部我們都無償的能夠來支持我們的同仁所以他也去提告了最後我也很高興前一兩個一個多禮拜前看到說他的新聞那在這個同時呢其實我們也組成了一個委員會\n\n06:25.948 --> 06:44.501\n那我必須跟委員報告我們組成一個外部的委員會來檢討我們的所有的行政流程那的的確也提出了懲處名單那這個懲處名單呢有些人不在我們的部內的職務工作那有些人呢是還在所以基本上呢不在我們部內工作或是說他位階比較高的\n\n06:44.841 --> 07:06.390\n我們都有報到行政院也報到監察院他們來處理所以委員說的這個懲處的人員我們經由外部專家委員都有列出一些人員那這個我們也能送到監察院也讓行政院知道那這個過程當中我們行政院院長卓龍泰他也非常支持我該辦就辦因為所有外部委員出來的意見該怎麼樣的處罰我就照那個去做處理\n\n07:06.758 --> 07:18.084\n所以你調查的那個調查委員小組事實上是有多數是屬於外部委員會五個全部是外部委員我們是外部委員來調查我們當時的行政流程有沒有瑕疵\n\n07:19.124 --> 07:40.913\n部長這個就是說這個是一個典範啦我必須說就是這個調查過程我也覺得很正面肯定那監察院幾天前說他有糾正環境部嘛要議處所以你也去做了但是他有提到說環境部除了口頭報告當然也有一些剛剛你提到說有一些懲處條這個名單但是我想問部長有包括張子敬跟葉俊宏嗎\n\n07:42.992 --> 08:06.763\n那不是機密啊?有包括他嗎?基本上有的有包括,有的有包括在裡面署長跟署密耶?當時的有一位的確是他沒有在職位上了他的確是有責任的那我們也報告行政院,因為他也退休了那另外一個呢,到底是不是責任?其實那個委員會有經歷詳細的討論過是誰有責任?誰看過這個問題?\n\n08:11.595 --> 08:28.814\n主密是擁有整個部門的這個機密資料的人這個調查本來是機密性的但是他是可以看這個資料這個主密現在是你的次長對報告委員這個我們有詢問過因為這當時在整個處理這個程序當中是有在署長在\n\n08:29.835 --> 08:44.204\n做這個決策的所以基本上當時我們最後委員會我也特別問過說是到哪一個城市有多少名單我都完全尊重那五位外聘的委員給我們提供的各種的建議那主秘不知情他也是這樣子跟著包庇啊\n\n08:45.384 --> 09:04.438\n基本上這個處理是當時的署長還有相關的人事相關的政風的在處理的所以這個是當時的外部委員非常的清楚我要看一下到時候那個署程懲處名單我們是一定要了解的但是我想請教為什麼環境部只有口頭告誡你不能內部先處理嗎除了交給行政院之外\n\n09:05.058 --> 09:20.010\n其實第一個報委員他們很多委員已經沒有在很多的相關人已經沒有在部內工作了所以基本上而且他當時的權責他的位階不是我們環境部可以懲處的名單我們沒有辦法處理\n\n09:20.430 --> 09:35.215\n我再請這個主席給我一兩分鐘部長你看一下這個東西左邊這張圖是受害人看到李建宇落網的新聞後他傳給當時的這個陳江華立委的訊息他感謝陳立委的關心這個案子也說他自己當年因為害怕不敢站出來這個據名檢舉但是他現在願意站出來因為當時他不敢\n\n09:40.037 --> 10:02.070\n但是現在他願意了部長你這次雖然已經落網但是應該還有更多受害者他沒有站出來了那部長如果你知道你願意為他們挺身而出嗎不要我們再去辦記者會了嗎不用不用了其實報告委員這個過程是一個非常長期的過程那我來了之後就一直宣告零容忍這個惡行很久了很久了而且我們也對於性行的教育我們部內大概辦了16場我來做16場\n\n10:04.011 --> 10:30.394\n所以基本上呢讓同仁能夠放心這是很重要的一環部長你看這裡面這張圖那是崔少哲朋友傳給我的我也轉達部長崔少哲幹了今日的報導因為我認為彭部長要肯定你喔謝謝他是有擔當的這崔少哲自己來的喔但是他們很在意當年的包庇者沒有處理一樣嘛跟我今天跟你談的時候也是這個還是因此當時包庇所以後來有更多人受害嘛\n\n10:30.834 --> 10:55.141\n受害範圍更廣嘛所以包庇者很重要啊這個包庇者對包庇者懲處為什麼我說雖然他落網了當事人但是這個正義還沒有回來所以你看他們肯定你但是他覺得包庇者如果不處理這不是他們所見的我覺得一個人能夠長期做壞事而且能夠得逞尤其在職場包庇者是很重要的靠山\n\n10:56.121 --> 11:13.558\n部長我相信你是有正義感的因為我對你這次的調查報告剛剛說明我是相當滿意但是受害者也這樣反應給我們所以我要跟部長說包庇者你一定要懲處一定要有適當的處分不是說你剛剛解釋當然你一直都沒提到名字但是我覺得\n\n11:14.679 --> 11:39.825\n他們才是關鍵啊是是委員放心這個因為調查是有一定的程序不是說我誰有責任這是經過一個委員會那至於說他到底懲處誰因為有些的職位比較高這個不是我可以懲處的是上面那我也跟卓院長報告他全力支持那後續應該會開會所以向環境部對這個新上岸的這一次的調查報告能夠作為所有行政部門的一個典範我們很期待好謝謝好謝謝陳教授委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.986,"end":7.227,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長來請部長委員早部長早剛剛我也有鼓掌謝謝謝謝委員部長這個兩年前陳交法立委他曾經召開了這個好幾次的那個記者會他踢爆這個當時的那個叫環保署環境督察總隊隊長李建鈺的惡行那在社會壓力下這個當時環境這個環境部終於成立調查小組那後來"},{"start":33.837,"end":60.391,"text":"也證實這個陳立委他揭發的他不是空穴來風因為現在李建玉不但被監察院彈劾而且上週還被檢察官收押二郎雖已若往但正義仍會還沒有換回來為什麼我這樣講呢因為當初包庇他的人到現在都沒有得到應有的懲罰雖然這件事不是發生在您的任期內但是"},{"start":61.411,"end":80.345,"text":"部長你現在這個位置上你只好蓋瓜承受你同意嗎我同意好那就謝謝部長好部長那部長你看看這是監察院的彈劾報告欸這個是比過去什麼勞動部什麼我們請他做衛福部做報告他們都沒有像監察院做這麼好這些都是公開的資訊喔請你稍微瀏覽一下好簡單你看有多誇張時間從108年開始而且他對身邊的屬下學員甚至廠商"},{"start":89.272,"end":103.928,"text":"然後他的地點不只是辦公室私密室甚至這個高鐵飛機上甚至在餐會上中目睽睽之下都進行這個明目張膽的騷擾那這幾年受害的人在監察院報告至少11個"},{"start":105.49,"end":118.361,"text":"可是我相信一定不止這個數字因為根據所有研究報告都說霸凌、性騷、性侵這個都是冰山一角啦因為很多人是不敢沒有那個勇氣站出來申訴請問部長你稍微看過這個資料嗎我都看過好謝謝部長"},{"start":121.684,"end":141.906,"text":"那我們來看一下李建宇被姦談約談的辯詞對於是否性騷女同仁他說我的型個性較為外放穿著比較帥氣也會關心女性同仁只要對方拒絕我一定不會做這件事你知道這個邏輯是什麼對方拒絕我一定不會做表示我會做是因為對方沒拒絕"},{"start":143.167,"end":166.137,"text":"當然他會是辯解說這是我的壞習慣但我沒那個意思對方一定是跟我關係比較好我才會那麼熟悉去碰觸他性騷擾還能如此理直氣壯部長那我最憤怒的就是至少有三位受害人他舉證歷歷的辯持說李建鈺竟然不思悔改他檢討的是被害人"},{"start":166.917,"end":177.506,"text":"他說為什麼在我任內沒有反應等到我離開的時候才說我的行為不會過分啊為什麼當時不說部長這句話你聽不下去嗎聽不下去OK謝謝你聽不下去那我想問你你為什麼聽不下去"},{"start":182.489,"end":200.274,"text":"因為這個是基本一個做人的一個原則而且性平這個是一個基本的態度我覺得他在整個證詞裡面我看到的他是完全是不符合的那我再跟您說為什麼他不敢說因為他們說他們不敢講為什麼任內他不敢講因為巴佩秋後算賬就是說"},{"start":203.835,"end":217.707,"text":"一個人可以這樣子去做背後一定有更大的官威或力量在支撐著他包庇他而且李金玉他很大耶位高權重督察總隊隊長他的下屬要有多大的勇氣才敢站出來部長"},{"start":219.349,"end":235.211,"text":"監察院的談核報告有提揭露有兩個同仁在調查報告裡面都表示畏懼在提起申訴後在職務上被刁難或是說會被報復這種心理壓抑而且調查期間他還在職那萬一申訴不成他以後怎麼辦"},{"start":236.465,"end":250.963,"text":"他們就這樣寫 我覺得捐款報告真的是很棒就其他的部門如果遇到類似要好好學習所以他們根本不敢提申訴就這樣只想遭到性騷擾性侵害的困境部長你能理解嗎我可以理解"},{"start":251.624,"end":271.113,"text":"那我要講的就是為什麼不敢講一樣啊在之前台大這個婦產科名醫對女醫師的騷擾這些女醫師都等到專科醫師考完她也才敢講話因為她可以在各個有權威嘛有這個分量她可以在後面的後續很多事情來為難她那之前這個衛福部主秘也是啊"},{"start":271.613,"end":293.204,"text":"他一旦這個事發案發後他們才發現說其實已經行之多年而且對象是很廣的這個是一律的這個一律都是性騷霸凌等等都是如此那部長為什麼被害人有那麼擔心為什麼李建鈺能夠如此囂張一而再再而上而且多達十幾位的女性對他們對這十幾位人伸出狼爪而且時間長達很多年為什麼因為公部門被人家詬病的最"},{"start":300.067,"end":314.698,"text":"重要的一點叫做官官相護所以很不可思議的107年就有人向環保署陳情沒有回應108年直接向行政院陳情沒有回應所以李建運有恃無恐行政院越來越誇張"},{"start":316.219,"end":345.159,"text":"受害人越來越多甚至112年6月喔他再次向環保署署長信箱陳情依然石沉大海直到反映給當時的陳家華立友召開記者會在社會壓力下才啟動調查所以我在這裡證明要向媒體各位朋友證明其實立法委員的存在是非常重要的監督行政部門的做法尤其在野黨的立委那部長請問這麼多年來誰在包庇誰在押案"},{"start":346.54,"end":356.891,"text":"誰讓這些受害者求助無門呢當時的署長張子敬當時的環保署主秘你現在的政務次長葉俊宏沒有責任嗎請部長回答"},{"start":358.083,"end":385.208,"text":"好 報告委喔 這個第一個是說這次他會被收押是我們的系統讓同仁能夠放心所以其實我也 我幾個月前介紹同仁說希望能夠對李鑑宇提告那我也請我們同仁所有的這個協助全部我們都無償的能夠來支持我們的同仁所以他也去提告了最後我也很高興前一兩個 一個多禮拜前看到說他的新聞那在這個同時呢 其實我們也組成了一個委員會"},{"start":385.948,"end":404.501,"text":"那我必須跟委員報告我們組成一個外部的委員會來檢討我們的所有的行政流程那的的確也提出了懲處名單那這個懲處名單呢有些人不在我們的部內的職務工作那有些人呢是還在所以基本上呢不在我們部內工作或是說他位階比較高的"},{"start":404.841,"end":426.39,"text":"我們都有報到行政院也報到監察院他們來處理所以委員說的這個懲處的人員我們經由外部專家委員都有列出一些人員那這個我們也能送到監察院也讓行政院知道那這個過程當中我們行政院院長卓龍泰他也非常支持我該辦就辦因為所有外部委員出來的意見該怎麼樣的處罰我就照那個去做處理"},{"start":426.758,"end":438.084,"text":"所以你調查的那個調查委員小組事實上是有多數是屬於外部委員會五個全部是外部委員我們是外部委員來調查我們當時的行政流程有沒有瑕疵"},{"start":439.124,"end":460.913,"text":"部長這個就是說這個是一個典範啦我必須說就是這個調查過程我也覺得很正面肯定那監察院幾天前說他有糾正環境部嘛要議處所以你也去做了但是他有提到說環境部除了口頭報告當然也有一些剛剛你提到說有一些懲處條這個名單但是我想問部長有包括張子敬跟葉俊宏嗎"},{"start":462.992,"end":486.763,"text":"那不是機密啊?有包括他嗎?基本上有的有包括,有的有包括在裡面署長跟署密耶?當時的有一位的確是他沒有在職位上了他的確是有責任的那我們也報告行政院,因為他也退休了那另外一個呢,到底是不是責任?其實那個委員會有經歷詳細的討論過是誰有責任?誰看過這個問題?"},{"start":491.595,"end":508.814,"text":"主密是擁有整個部門的這個機密資料的人這個調查本來是機密性的但是他是可以看這個資料這個主密現在是你的次長對 報告委員這個我們有詢問過因為這當時在整個處理這個程序當中是有在署長在"},{"start":509.835,"end":524.204,"text":"做這個決策的所以基本上當時我們最後委員會我也特別問過說是到哪一個城市有多少名單我都完全尊重那五位外聘的委員給我們提供的各種的建議那主秘不知情他也是這樣子跟著包庇啊"},{"start":525.384,"end":544.438,"text":"基本上這個處理是當時的署長還有相關的人事相關的政風的在處理的所以這個是當時的外部委員非常的清楚我要看一下到時候那個署程懲處名單我們是一定要了解的但是我想請教為什麼環境部只有口頭告誡你不能內部先處理嗎除了交給行政院之外"},{"start":545.058,"end":560.01,"text":"其實第一個報委員他們很多委員已經沒有在很多的相關人已經沒有在部內工作了所以基本上而且他當時的權責他的位階不是我們環境部可以懲處的名單我們沒有辦法處理"},{"start":560.43,"end":575.215,"text":"我再請這個主席給我一兩分鐘部長你看一下這個東西左邊這張圖是受害人看到李建宇落網的新聞後他傳給當時的這個陳江華立委的訊息他感謝陳立委的關心這個案子也說他自己當年因為害怕不敢站出來這個據名檢舉但是他現在願意站出來因為當時他不敢"},{"start":580.037,"end":602.07,"text":"但是現在他願意了 部長 你這次雖然已經落網但是應該還有更多受害者他沒有站出來了那部長如果你知道你願意為他們挺身而出嗎不要我們再去辦記者會了嗎不用不用了其實報告委員這個過程是一個非常長期的過程那我來了之後就一直宣告零容忍這個惡行很久了很久了而且我們也對於性行的教育我們部內大概辦了16場我來做16場"},{"start":604.011,"end":630.394,"text":"所以基本上呢 讓同仁能夠放心這是很重要的一環部長 你看這裡面這張圖 那是崔少哲朋友傳給我的我也轉達部長 崔少哲幹了今日的報導因為我認為彭部長 要肯定你喔謝謝他是有擔當的 這崔少哲自己來的喔但是他們很在意當年的包庇者沒有處理一樣嘛 跟我今天跟你談的時候也是這個 還是因此當時包庇所以後來有更多人受害嘛"},{"start":630.834,"end":655.141,"text":"受害範圍更廣嘛所以包庇者很重要啊這個包庇者對包庇者懲處為什麼我說雖然他落網了當事人但是這個正義還沒有回來所以你看他們肯定你但是他覺得包庇者如果不處理這不是他們所見的我覺得一個人能夠長期做壞事而且能夠得逞尤其在職場包庇者是很重要的靠山"},{"start":656.121,"end":673.558,"text":"部長我相信你是有正義感的因為我對你這次的調查報告剛剛說明我是相當滿意但是受害者也這樣反應給我們所以我要跟部長說包庇者你一定要懲處一定要有適當的處分不是說你剛剛解釋當然你一直都沒提到名字但是我覺得"},{"start":674.679,"end":699.825,"text":"他們才是關鍵啊是是委員放心這個因為調查是有一定的程序不是說我誰有責任這是經過一個委員會那至於說他到底懲處誰因為有些的職位比較高這個不是我可以懲處的是上面那我也跟卓院長報告他全力支持那後續應該會開會所以向環境部對這個新上岸的這一次的調查報告能夠作為所有行政部門的一個典範我們很期待好謝謝好謝謝陳教授委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時15分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。剛剛我有鼓掌。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝、謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，兩年前陳椒華立委曾經召開了好幾次記者會，他踢爆當時環保署環境督察總隊隊長李健育的惡行，在社會壓力下，當時環境部終於成立調查小組，後來也證實陳立委所揭發的不是空穴來風，因為現在李健育不但被監察院彈劾，而且上週還被檢察官收押。部長，惡狼雖已落網，但正義仍還沒有喚回來，為什麼我這樣講？因為當初包庇他的人到現在都沒有得到應有的懲罰，雖然這件事不是發生在您的任期內，但是現在部長在這個位置上，你只好概括承受，你同意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就謝謝部長。部長，這是監察院的彈劾報告，過去我們請衛福部、請勞動部報告，他們都沒有像監察院做得這麼好，這些都是公開的資訊，請你稍微簡單瀏覽一下。你看有多誇張，時間從108年開始，而且他對身邊的屬下、學員，甚至廠商，然後他的地點不只是辦公室、私密室，甚至高鐵、飛機上，甚至在餐會上眾目睽睽之下，都進行明目張膽的騷擾，這幾年受害的人在監察院的報告中至少有11個，可是我相信一定不只這個數字，因為根據所有研究報告都說霸凌、性騷、性侵都是冰山一角，很多人是不敢，沒有那個勇氣站出來申訴。請問部長，你稍微看過這個資料嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我都看過。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。那我們來看一下李健育被監察院約談的辯詞，對於是否性騷擾女同仁，他說：我的型、個性較為外放、穿著比較帥氣，也會關心女性同仁，只要對方拒絕，我一定不會做這些事。你知道這個邏輯是什麼？對方拒絕，我一定不會做，表示我會做是因為對方沒拒絕，然後他會去辯解說：這是我的壞習慣，但我沒那個意思，對方一定是跟我關係比較好，我才會那麼熟悉去碰觸他。性騷擾還能如此理直氣壯！部長，我最憤怒的就是至少有三位受害人舉證歷歷的辯詞說，李健育竟然不思悔改，他檢討的是被害人，他說「為什麼在我任內沒有反應，等到我離開的時候才說；我的行為不會過分，為什麼當時不說」。部長，這句話你聽得進去嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：聽不下去。"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，謝謝你聽不下去。那我想問你，你為什麼聽不下去？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個是基本一個做人的原則，而且性平是一個基本的態度，我覺得在他整個證詞裡面，我看到他是完全不符合的。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，那我再跟您說為什麼他們不敢說，因為他們說他們不敢講，為什麼任內他們不敢講？因為怕被秋後算帳，就是有一個人可以這樣子做，背後一定有更大的官威或力量在支撐著他、包庇他。而且李健育他很大耶！位高權重，督察總隊隊長，他的下屬要有多大的勇氣才敢站出來？部長，監察院的彈劾報告有揭露，有兩個同仁在調查報告裡面都表示畏懼在提起申訴後，在職務上被刁難或是說會被報復的這種心理壓力，而且調查期間他還在職，萬一申訴不成他以後怎麼辦，他們就這樣寫。我覺得監察院的報告真的是很棒，其他部門如果遇到類似案件要好好學習，所以他們根本不敢提申訴，這種在職場上遭到性騷擾、性侵害的困境，部長你能理解嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我可以理解。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那我要講的就是為什麼不敢講，一樣啊！之前臺大婦產科名醫對女醫師的騷擾，這些女醫師都等到專科醫師考完才敢講話，因為名醫有權威、有分量，可以在後續很多事情來為難他。之前衛福部主秘也是。一旦案發後，他們才發現，其實已經行之多年，而且對象是很廣的，這個是一律的，性騷、霸凌等等一律都是如此。","部長，為什麼被害人有那麼擔心？為什麼李健育能夠如此囂張，一而再、再而三，對多達十幾位的女性伸出狼爪，而且時間長達很多年，為什麼？因為公部門被人家詬病的最重要一點叫做官官相護。很不可思議耶！107年就有人向環保署陳情，沒有回應；108年直接向行政院陳情，沒有回應，所以李健育有恃無恐，行事越來越誇張，受害人越來越多，甚至112年6月他再次向環保署署長信箱陳情，依然石沉大海！直到反映給當時的陳椒華立委，他召開記者會，在社會壓力下，才啟動調查。所以我在這裡證明，要向媒體、各位朋友證明，其實立法委員的存在是非常重要的，要監督行政部門的作法，尤其在野黨的立委。部長，請問這麼多年來誰在包庇、誰在壓案？誰讓這些受害者求助無門呢？當時的署長張子敬、當時的環保署主秘（你現在政務次長）葉俊宏沒有責任嗎？請部長回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，這次他會被收押是我們的系統讓同仁能夠放心，其實我幾個月前接到同仁說，希望能夠對李健育提告，我也請我們同仁給予所有的協助，全部我們都能夠無償的來支持同仁，所以他也去提告了，最後我很高興一個多禮拜前看到收押的新聞。在這個同時，其實我們也組成了一個委員會，我必須跟委員報告，我們組成了一個外部委員會來檢討所有行政流程，的確也提出了懲處名單這個懲處名單當中，有些人不在部內的職務工作，有些人還在。基本上，不在部內工作的，或是位階比較高的，我們都有報到行政院，也報到監察院，由他們來處理。所以委員說的懲處人員，我們經由外部專家委員有列出一些人員，這個我們也都有送到監察院，也讓行政院知道，這個過程當中，我們行政院卓榮泰院長也非常支持我，該辦就辦，所有外部委員出來的意見，該怎麼樣處罰，我就照那個去處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你那個調查小組的委員事實上有多數是屬於外部委員？"],["彭部長啓明：5個全部是外部委員，我們是外部委員來調查我們當時的行政流程有沒有瑕疵。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，這個是一個典範，我必須說，這個調查過程我也很正面肯定。","另外，監察院幾天前說有糾正環境部，要求議處。你也去做了，但是他有提到，環境部除了口頭告誡，剛剛你提到，當然也有一些懲處名單，但是我想問部長，有包括張子敬及葉俊宏嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：這不是機密，有包括他嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，有的有包括在裡面。"],["陳委員昭姿：當時的署長及主秘耶！"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，有一位的確是沒有在職位上了，但他的確是有責任的，我們也報到行政院，因為他也退休了，另外一個到底是不是有責任，其實委員會有經歷詳細的討論過是誰有責任、誰看過這個問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：主秘是擁有整個部門機密資料的人，這個調查本來是機密性的，但是他是可以看這個資料，這個主秘現在是你的次長耶！"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，這個我們有詢問過，因為當時在整個處理程序當中是署長在做這個決策的，基本上，我也特別問過，是到哪一個層次？有多少名單？我都完全尊重那5位外聘委員給我們提供的各種建議。"],["陳委員昭姿：主秘不知情，也是這樣跟著包庇，這個很奇怪喔！"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，這個是當時的署長，還有相關的人事、相關的政風，在處理的，這個當時外部委員非常的清楚。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我要看一下，到時候那個懲處名單我們是一定要了解的，但是我想請教，為什麼環境部只有口頭告誡，你不能內部先處理嗎？除了交給行政院之外，內部不處理嗎？沒有任何作法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，很多的相關人已經沒有在部內工作了，而且他當時的權責、位階不是環境部可以懲處的，我們沒有辦法處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。請主席給我1、2分鐘。","部長，你看一下這個東西，左邊這張圖是受害人看到李健育落網的新聞後傳給當時的立委陳椒華的訊息，他感謝陳立委關心這個案子，也說他自己當年因為害怕不敢站出來具名檢舉，但是他現在願意站出來，當時他不敢，但是現在他願意了。部長，李健育雖然已經落網，但是應該還有更多受害者沒有站出來，如果你知道，你願意為他們挺身而出嗎？不要我們再去辦記者會了嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：不用、不用了……"],["陳委員昭姿：好。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個過程是一個非常長期的過程，我來了之後，就一直宣告零容忍……"],["陳委員昭姿：是，可見這個惡行很久了，我在……"],["彭部長啓明：很久了，而且對於性平的教育，我來之後，部內也大概辦了16場，所以基本上讓同仁能夠放心是很重要的一環。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你看右手邊這張圖，那是吹哨者朋友傳給我的，我也轉達部長，吹哨者看了近日的報導，他肯定你……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：認為彭部長是有擔當的，這是吹哨者自己傳來的，但是他們很在意當年的包庇者沒有處理，一樣，我今天跟你談的也是這個。因為當時包庇，所以後來有更多人受害，受害的範圍更廣，所以對包庇者懲處很重要，這是為什麼我說雖然當事人落網了，但是正義還沒有回來。所以他們肯定你，但是他覺得包庇者如果不處理，這不是他們所希望見的。我覺得一個人能夠長期做壞事，而且能夠得逞，尤其在職場，包庇者是很重要的靠山！部長，我相信你是有正義感的，因為我對你這次的調查報告、剛剛的說明是相當滿意……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是受害者這樣反映給我們，所以我要跟部長說，你一定要懲處包庇者，一定要有適當的處分。當然你一直都沒提到名字，但是我覺得他們才是關鍵，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是，是，委員放心，調查是有一定的程序，不是說誰都有責任，這是經過一個委員會，至於到底懲處誰，因為有些的職位比較高，不是我可以懲處的，是上面，那我也跟卓院長報告，他全力支持，後續應該會開會。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長，我也希望環境部對這次性騷案的調查報告能夠作為所有行政部門的一個典範，我們很期待。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員，謝謝部長。部長，大家對你很肯定，但是還是要提醒一件事情，這件事情讓同仁感覺到非常不幸，也讓當時的環保署、現在的環境部蒙羞！然後我還是要特別提醒，處理垃圾的機關，基本上，官位都不是很大，但是權力都大到不行，它現在隸屬在哪一個署，你應該很清楚，這個要小心，不要重蹈覆轍，謝謝。","接下來請陳菁徽委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-8","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","牛煦庭","林淑芬","葉元之","王正旭","劉書彬","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃秀芳","楊曜","陳瑩","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-04-28"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00003"}}}