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{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 44.267, \"end\": 44.627, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 44.627, \"end\": 45.788, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"棄\"}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 45.788, \"end\": 45.968, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 45.968, \"end\": 46.208, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 46.208, \"end\": 46.708, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 46.708, \"end\": 46.969, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 46.969, \"end\": 47.529, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"償\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 47.529, \"end\": 47.629, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 47.629, \"end\": 47.949, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 47.949, \"end\": 48.87, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"若\", \"start\": 48.87, \"end\": 49.45, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": 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\"text\": \"那更多的是我們連申請都不願意申請那我現在是要以高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號裁定為例為什麼要談這個是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例法院的單一個案的判決成為判例\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 63.598, \"end\": 63.938, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 63.938, \"end\": 64.258, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 64.258, \"end\": 64.439, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 64.439, \"end\": 64.619, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 64.619, \"end\": 64.859, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 64.859, \"end\": 65.299, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 65.299, \"end\": 65.699, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 65.699, \"end\": 65.839, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 65.839, \"end\": 66.14, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 66.14, \"end\": 66.28, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 66.28, \"end\": 68.581, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"騙\"}, {\"word\": \"笑\", \"start\": 1113.136, \"end\": 1114.737, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"欸\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1114.737, \"end\": 1114.957, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 1114.957, \"end\": 1115.137, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 1115.137, \"end\": 1115.257, \"score\": 0.563}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 1115.257, \"end\": 1116.117, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 1116.117, \"end\": 1116.377, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1116.377, \"end\": 1116.577, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1116.577, \"end\": 1117.078, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1117.078, \"end\": 1117.098, \"score\": 0.154}]}, {\"start\": 1118.297, \"end\": 1141.188, \"text\": \"而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合等到法律程序跑完違規者早就資產轉移不要講等到法律程序啦你們自己內部還在這樣子跟立委講話政府乾瞪眼 立委在那裡說到有錢沒拿 也是沒好最後都是全民買單 或是全民給放在那因為地方政府不編列這個預算 擺爛因為球場也球場不回來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1368.654, \"end\": 1368.694, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 1368.694, \"end\": 1368.814, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1368.814, \"end\": 1368.914, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1368.914, \"end\": 1369.215, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1369.215, \"end\": 1369.415, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1369.415, \"end\": 1370.717, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1370.717, \"end\": 1371.137, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1371.137, \"end\": 1371.338, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1371.338, \"end\": 1372.019, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1372.019, \"end\": 1372.199, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1372.199, \"end\": 1372.299, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1372.299, \"end\": 1372.419, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 1372.419, \"end\": 1372.599, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 1372.599, \"end\": 1372.72, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1372.72, \"end\": 1372.82, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1372.82, \"end\": 1373.06, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 1373.06, \"end\": 1373.601, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1373.601, \"end\": 1373.701, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1373.701, \"end\": 1373.801, \"score\": 0.539}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1373.801, \"end\": 1374.181, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1374.181, \"end\": 1374.302, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"淑\", \"start\": 1374.302, \"end\": 1374.422, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 1374.422, \"end\": 1374.442, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1374.442, \"end\": 1374.542, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 1374.542, \"end\": 1374.562, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,264 --> 00:00:14,376\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們彭部長有請彭部長李委員好\n\n2\n00:00:15,452 --> 00:00:17,813\n肥清法第71條甲扣鴨的制度在食物上大概是形同虛設\n\n3\n00:00:35,502 --> 00:01:02,758\n就是說廢清法第71條規定主管機關依廢清法第71條第一項規定待為清除廢棄物後向醫務人求償必要費用時若醫務人不願意繳納環保機關應有權向法院申請假扣押但是在實務上你去行政法院對假扣押的審查極為嚴格然後我們很多都被駁回\n\n4\n00:01:03,598 --> 00:01:22,249\n那更多的是我們連申請都不願意申請那我現在是要以高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號裁定為例為什麼要談這個是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例法院的單一個案的判決成為判例\n\n5\n00:01:26,872 --> 00:01:55,427\n那這個影響就很大那高雄高等行政法院112年度的這個裁定是這樣子環保局預估代為清理的費用是92746243元所以依法申請假扣押那申請人雖然是在高雄高等行政法院但申請人是台南市政府環保局申請的理由包括相對人借其了\n\n6\n00:01:56,147 --> 00:02:07,896\n人為繳納預估帶旅行清理非法棄置的廢棄物的費用他沒有自己去繳錢那也沒有提出清理廢棄物的意願嫌有隱匿或遺傳財產的可能這是地方政府申請的寫的原因\n\n7\n00:02:15,502 --> 00:02:38,111\n結果被法院認為市民不足而駁回解釋的是明白的明市民不足而駁回法院是這樣看的第一點關於廢清法第七十一條第一項環保機關必須實際執行待清理才能依照廢清法向相對人請求清理費用\n\n8\n00:02:38,971 --> 00:03:00,579\n那由於申請人沒有提供足夠的證據去證明已經開始執行清理因此法院難以認定他們有已成立的公法上的金錢債權也就是說申請人沒有取得合法的清償權利所以沒有辦法依據此去申請假扣押\n\n9\n00:03:02,301 --> 00:03:24,841\n第二個關於行政執行法第29條第二項即便相對人沒有在期限內履行清理義務法院認為這個可能比較大的問題在這裡申請人所提供的證據只能證明請求清理費的原因但不足以證明相對人有資產轉移或無法執行的風險\n\n10\n00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:33,942\n你可能看到他沒有交錢但你沒有要證明你現在就是可以吃苦鴨因為你沒有要證明這個人他要把他的財產轉移換言之法院不認為單純未繳納代旅行費用就足以證明相對人將來無法強制執行所以因此駁回吃苦鴨申請全台灣社會大家都知道\n\n11\n00:03:50,607 --> 00:03:52,450\n高等行政法院高雄行政法院認為\n\n12\n00:04:07,849 --> 00:04:30,670\n撥回扣押的申請所以我們現在我這個事情我們也跟你問過了環境部叫你們提供過去五年依廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關申請假扣押的案件你們說啊你們說這個一共主管機關申請假扣押有三件法院主席兩件撥回一件\n\n13\n00:04:32,151 --> 00:04:37,194\n那該駁回案的金額是5億4千多萬駁回的理由是因為申請人對相對人的金錢給付債權或請求權尚未發生意思就是說你剛才不開錢你剛才不去請你現在就要去請了開錢開了啊這可以吃虧啊你如果等你開錢了請了啊你剛開始請的時候他就脫線了啦脫線了啊事務面我們都知道但是這樣\n\n14\n00:05:02,288 --> 00:05:28,681\n換你這樣認定我最怕是成為判例法院都這樣講因為現有的法律現有的法律工具看起來也的確長得很像藉其不為清除處理時地方政府主管機關或執行機構得待為清除處理並向其上面的這些有責任的人求償清理改善及衍生之必要費用\n\n15\n00:05:29,261 --> 00:05:40,430\n藉其如果沒有清償者移送強制執行所以法律工具的確就是你要清料啊才可以去吃褲子不用說大家也遭料料保證你對這個實務面土法不足以執行如果法律工具也有問題\n\n16\n00:05:48,115 --> 00:06:15,366\n執行面也有問題為什麼這麼久都沒有處理過好包委員您提到的都是重點就是我們跟那個檢警調還有一個平台其實討論的就是委員您說到的問題就是裡面的核心那目前呢我們希望修法的就是71條裡面希望說還是一樣我有看到對我們希望這個部分能夠再加強我現在先講一下您的行政處我說喔您到底過去五年啊等於政府去申請恰恰您說三件嘛\n\n17\n00:06:16,346 --> 00:06:44,646\n其實這三件裡面我剛剛講的那一件112年的這一個文號判例裁定其實你們也不放在裡面都沒有放在裡面所以柏定你們這個假扣押的案件跟數據你提供個立委的到底是怎麼算的為什麼才這個寥寥可數啊個案沒幾件然後就可以這樣子我如果看到那一件你如果不說那一件你如果不說提供的資料都不全\n\n18\n00:06:46,670 --> 00:07:14,953\n委員我請署長來回覆署長認識他三十年了我們所提供的那個資料是指找不到行為人的那個部分然後再去就是找不到行為人71條第一項沒有在管有沒有找得到行為人有行為人更好抓到了更好沒有的話也有善良管理人責任的第九大家都知道\n\n19\n00:07:16,834 --> 00:07:29,040\n我告訴你我要跟你討好資料說你有去申請假扣押制五年到底有幾件你有立委的資料說三件立委自己去找來就一件你就沒有列入在內啊你們提供立委的基本資料就提供不全欸我怎麼想說你們可能整個部都沒有人在管這些事情吧你現在就跟我說未來修法會處理未來修法就可以解決了嗎\n\n20\n00:07:46,058 --> 00:08:05,184\n未來修法你們未來的修法你們要預告假扣押制度但是法院你們沒有明確的去降低市民的標準法院要求需市民義務人有日後不能或難以強制執行之餘這要怎麼舉證\n\n21\n00:08:08,244 --> 00:08:16,998\n現在範圍的判例是說他沒有跟你交集也沒有跟你提清理計劃你要怎麼證明這樣他就會脫產\n\n22\n00:08:20,543 --> 00:08:37,348\n你的草案未來草案是說修正申請假扣押的時間點但沒有在法條文字中直接降低或修改市民有日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘這一個要件的證明標準\n\n23\n00:08:38,803 --> 00:08:57,845\n那法院是否會認為,在未來他是不是會認為,你來想說,好,我換你去改改,我可以先扣押,把扣押的順序不要從這個清理完畢,把它提早到只要一發現行政送達,你都沒回覆,我就馬上給你加扣押。\n\n24\n00:08:59,246 --> 00:09:23,407\n你們是這樣修嘛但是這個未來法院是不是會認為說行政處分以送達他這個本身就足夠構成夾扣押的急迫性和必要性嗎這個在司法實務的見解上可能還會有問題喔而且你們是得或是應還是這個那如果法院能夠維持目前這種\n\n25\n00:09:24,748 --> 00:09:49,234\n比較嚴格的市民標準假扣押的執行都不會產生問題嗎你不知道報委員這個我們把你的意見因為我們現在希望說趕快匯集完了之後可以有一個預告那我們會把委員的意見看能不能趕得及把這次就把它進行修正不是因為我跟我們我再講一下根據環境\n\n26\n00:09:50,274 --> 00:09:56,101\n鋪自己的統計過去五年依照行政執行法第29條除了機關隊為旅行這個清理義務的義務人預估去帶旅行費用並發出繳納命令的案件一共有133件總費用金額高達79億9986萬將近80億\n\n27\n00:10:10,526 --> 00:10:13,348\n那為什麼會啟動第七十一條第一項因為這個欧美丹四月份去欧美丹顯然有足生於環境和健康風險你們才啟動的這一條七十一條第一項嘛阿不然全台灣欧美丹的地方全都霸凌啦\n\n28\n00:10:28,857 --> 00:10:48,195\n整個10萬個地方啦那為什麼要鎖定第71條第一項來討論因為第71條第一項啟動的條款顯然就是危害健康危害污染土地污染地下水土壤等等非常嚴重的你才需要介入在這種狀況裡面你們評估啊在過去5年大家有40年要開啦但是\n\n29\n00:10:53,993 --> 00:11:07,637\n真的有來納一年薪兩千控備者六萬四千兩百二十二元2086-4222我的意思是說有八十億的帶旅行費用只有0.26%的人有繳錢有99.74%是\n\n30\n00:11:14,059 --> 00:11:15,520\n想要讓政府買單那據此的話這個狀況的話這個71條第一項我要講現行的現有的法律是這個追償的系統是不好的法律工具有問題失效的不能執行的\n\n31\n00:11:32,230 --> 00:11:44,024\n在條法律有立跟不立一樣有這條法律跟不這條法律一樣這個顯然有兩個問題嘛第一個法律工具本身有問題第二個執行面有問題\n\n32\n00:11:45,615 --> 00:12:02,987\n那顯然這兩個問題都存在顯然這兩個問題都存在而且這麼多年來你現在要修廢清法才說要處理可是在之前就法律工具真的完全這麼不足嗎我們都不要主動去找司法院處理過嗎\n\n33\n00:12:04,788 --> 00:12:24,370\n那我現在一直要講判例的原因是因為高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號的裁定法院認為環保機關必須實際代為清除後使得依廢清法第71條第一項向鄉對人求償必要的費用而且他有示明喔\n\n34\n00:12:25,765 --> 00:12:39,780\n他要求要4名義務人員日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘那這種舉證標準幾乎都讓環保機關無法實際運用假扣押制度\n\n35\n00:12:41,321 --> 00:12:56,047\n那從實際狀況的執行面來看醫護人根本只要擺爛不繳納反正就交給政府來收拾那從另外一個角度來看行政執行法的代旅行程序或是廢清法第71條第一項的求償這個如果\n\n36\n00:13:02,599 --> 00:13:21,195\n有效的話如果有效的話那麼廢清法根本不用設置假扣押的這個機制所以其實是無效的就是說現有的法律工具71條的這個可以假扣押或者是行政執行法的代理型程序通通法律工具都無效\n\n37\n00:13:22,984 --> 00:13:25,146\n那我要再講一個實務面這個部長最近不法集團在那個碼頭山高雄的碼頭山自然生態保育區棄置失業費期務一案那檢察官初步的估計\n\n38\n00:13:40,058 --> 00:13:47,280\n遷運這個廢棄物的費用大概要超過一億肇事的七名逃犯喔遷運的費用幾億但是抓到了抓到了肇事這個非法肇事的這些涉嫌人喔幾萬九百你知道嗎八萬七萬五萬\n\n39\n00:13:59,116 --> 00:14:15,892\n交保的金額跟清理費用相比為不足道然後這些背後只是還有後面的指示集團所以他們很容易脫產大家都知道沒有辦法假扣押然後沒有辦法追回這個清理的費用\n\n40\n00:14:17,020 --> 00:14:43,308\n所以在這種狀況裡面環境部在你說要修法之前修法的法律工具我其實覺得這樣夠嗎我是有一個問號但是在這個之前比如說碼頭山這個案子你有沒有具體的對策因為碼頭山那個是屬於要不要回答一下屬於什麼這個都地方政府要去執行的跟我們中央都無關\n\n41\n00:14:44,764 --> 00:15:12,962\n署長很簡單,一定這樣說就好了那都地方政府要去做,跟我無關的報告委員,那個碼頭山那個齁,應該是犯罪所得是可以扣押得到的,我們從那裡去做處理啦你說什麼所?犯罪所得犯罪所得?對,就是他的不法立得那個部分不法立得,因為貴賓公司很大件的嗎?這個還要再去清查一下你若不吃扣押,脫產了啦\n\n42\n00:15:14,093 --> 00:15:18,140\n破產了啦公司改善了啦再重新立一間新公司就好了啦\n\n43\n00:15:19,690 --> 00:15:44,140\n你們在這裡跟立委講的你有沒有想過你說這麼幼稚的回答沒聽到這個回答這麼幼稚你現在的動作你不是幼稚園的學生喔你當成民主會是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當成外環委員會的委員是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當立法院的立委中華民國立法院的立委都是笨蛋還是白癡嗎\n\n44\n00:15:46,141 --> 00:16:09,797\n你跟我說這是生肖欸保證你覺得這個會打生肖欸我就是希望說這個可以如何才可以更好啦那委員的提的建議你都這樣說你都說虛的沒有啦沒有啦這個現在其實希望修正的希望委員的意見我們可以再進來我就跟你講啦這個是立法這個是環境部最核心的業務不是去談\n\n45\n00:16:12,419 --> 00:16:37,436\n節能減碳碳費碳稅不是剛剛講的那個綠能不是為什麼會有這種非法氣質最源頭就是你們管理的不好你們信業廢棄物的管理就是很爛才會有廢物這個廢棄物毀壞的才會有污染土地污染地下水上游的管理就出問題了才會有這種小小四處在外面亂丟亂氣質\n\n46\n00:16:40,822 --> 00:16:42,685\n所以你的善有全部都沒有管好耶你的輸定就在那裡,是非管理都出很多問題\n\n47\n00:16:50,871 --> 00:17:10,966\n然後在問你問到這個東西你又在這裡虛以為疑過去五年主管機關對於未履行清理義務的義務人須預估待履行費用並依行政執行法發出繳納命令的總案件數是133依據廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關待會清除或處理廢棄物並向清理義務人求償費用的案件總共53件133然後這個有去\n\n48\n00:17:21,694 --> 00:17:46,866\n提出球場費用的只有53那133只有53去提出要球場只有三件去申請假扣押請問部長你們有沒有研究一下主管機關為什麼沒有積極的申請假扣押的原因是什麼為什麼讓違規者有機會轉移資產為什麼老是幫政府要幫這一種犯罪的人在那裡擦屁股呢\n\n49\n00:17:48,087 --> 00:17:53,291\n或是為盡善良管理人責任的人在那裡插屁股呢在環境保護跟公帑帶清除之間要怎麼取得平衡啊擋不擋的抗人民支開這個緊急忽然之餘,我們今天先去清澳有些地方沒有錢啊,中間有沒有變價錢,有沒有變得高沒有啦,中間有沒有變價錢啦\n\n50\n00:18:13,168 --> 00:18:37,098\n那如果危害健康和環境之餘的怎麼辦?危害健康和環境之餘的,就跟他斷了啊,繼續斷了啊所以面臨一個這麼嚴重的問題,違規棄置非棄物的人查到的時候,就像剛才蘇丁說的,炸就脫蒜了,還要再把我凍著可以追回不法所得,不法利得,騙笑欸,政府根本追不回來啊\n\n51\n00:18:38,297 --> 00:19:01,188\n而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合等到法律程序跑完違規者早就資產轉移不要講等到法律程序啦你們自己內部還在這樣子跟立委講話政府乾瞪眼立委在那裡說到有錢沒拿也是沒好最後都是全民買單或是全民給放在那因為地方政府不編列這個預算擺爛因為球場也球場不回來\n\n52\n00:19:06,258 --> 00:19:18,317\n所以政府的預算這麼有限面對這些非法棄置的問題所以如果沒有立即危害或是到健康或是公共這個環境甚至有立即危害你也是不會做啦這樣狀況\n\n53\n00:19:23,838 --> 00:19:30,722\n所以你們提供的資料到今年2月20日為止非法棄置的列管案件1130件解除列管的690件持續列管的440件\n\n54\n00:19:39,534 --> 00:19:44,075\n這個氣質的長殖類型多樣廢棄物的種類數量長殖位置清理成本不一連平均清理成本都算不出來這樣子下去喔大家有用看用歐北豆沒要緊釀沒中釀中也太善沒要緊它會變成破窗效應\n\n55\n00:20:03,419 --> 00:20:17,719\n大家別的違規則看到政府不處理可以更肆無忌憚制度面有破洞抓不到靠不到問題越來越嚴重好我知道你一直看我啦我把時間最後講一下啦\n\n56\n00:20:19,710 --> 00:20:41,593\n我們幫這些違規的人插屁股是在圖利私人可是不處理的話也不行那監察院有對你們做幾個建議啊監察院調查報告有建議說刻以行則啊沒有這個依法提供或是沒有提交處理計畫書或清理廢棄物直接刻以行則啊\n\n57\n00:20:42,774 --> 00:21:09,254\n第二個假扣押制度的改革明確的降低假扣押的舉證標準或規定特定情況下可推定有假扣押原因存在以增加環保機關保全球場權利的可能性那你們提出的版本是不是就足以構成這樣的一個條件到時候我們可以來看看但是還有一個比照土屋法修法所講土屋法當初就在講了你不要讓我抓到\n\n58\n00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:33,776\n抓到的時候污染者如果是公司不是公司解散了就好了公司的負責人主要股東或者是連間接控制公司的投資人都要負擔清理費用永遠跑不掉負最終的清理責任公司倒了\n\n59\n00:21:34,497 --> 00:21:44,077\n污染責任還是存在普法就說即使企業因為合併分割或其他方式消失負責任股東仍然要付清理費\n\n60\n00:21:46,019 --> 00:21:59,330\n違規不繳清理費還可以加收滯納金和罰款讀法第43條強制規定汙染者不繳清理費除了收0.5%每天喔0.5%的滯納金超過30天還要罰款20到100萬來交換下去所以林費清罰跟剛才說的一個假扣押\n\n61\n00:22:12,219 --> 00:22:15,440\n畢竟我剛才說這有道理嗎比照圖無法公司改善主要的投資者負責人大股東都負連帶永遠的最終的清理責任跑不掉沒得六次納金阿哥吃苦鴨阿哥罰款連續罰一直罰罰到1%這樣可以嗎\n\n62\n00:22:40,984 --> 00:22:54,562\n委員你的建議非常好啦你們的版本都沒有這監察院調查報告也建議我會把委員的建議把它放在我們預告的法規裡面好那就要修正一下喔好謝謝委員好謝謝林淑芬委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7264\t14376\t好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長 有請彭部長李委員好\n15452\t17813\t肥清法第71條 甲扣鴨的制度在食物上大概是形同虛設\n35502\t62758\t就是說廢清法第71條規定主管機關依廢清法第71條第一項規定待為清除廢棄物後向醫務人求償必要費用時若醫務人不願意繳納環保機關應有權向法院申請假扣押但是在實務上你去行政法院對假扣押的審查極為嚴格然後我們很多都被駁回\n63598\t82249\t那更多的是我們連申請都不願意申請那我現在是要以高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號裁定為例為什麼要談這個是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例法院的單一個案的判決成為判例\n86872\t115427\t那這個影響就很大那高雄高等行政法院112年度的這個裁定是這樣子環保局預估代為清理的費用是92746243元所以依法申請假扣押那申請人雖然是在高雄高等行政法院但申請人是台南市政府環保局申請的理由包括相對人借其了\n116147\t127896\t人為繳納預估帶旅行清理非法棄置的廢棄物的費用他沒有自己去繳錢那也沒有提出清理廢棄物的意願 嫌有隱匿或遺傳財產的可能這是地方政府申請的 寫的原因\n135502\t158111\t結果被法院認為市民不足而駁回解釋的是明白的明 市民不足而駁回法院是這樣看的 第一點關於廢清法第七十一條第一項環保機關必須實際執行待清理才能依照廢清法向相對人請求清理費用\n158971\t180579\t那由於申請人沒有提供足夠的證據去證明已經開始執行清理因此法院難以認定他們有已成立的公法上的金錢債權也就是說申請人沒有取得合法的清償權利所以沒有辦法依據此去申請假扣押\n182301\t204841\t第二個 關於行政執行法第29條第二項即便相對人沒有在期限內履行清理義務法院認為 這個可能比較大的問題在這裡申請人所提供的證據只能證明請求清理費的原因但不足以證明相對人有資產轉移或無法執行的風險\n207120\t213942\t你可能看到他沒有交錢但你沒有要證明你現在就是可以吃苦鴨因為你沒有要證明這個人他要把他的財產轉移換言之法院不認為單純未繳納代旅行費用就足以證明相對人將來無法強制執行所以因此駁回吃苦鴨申請全台灣社會大家都知道\n230607\t232450\t高等行政法院 高雄行政法院認為\n247849\t270670\t撥回扣押的申請所以我們現在我這個事情我們也跟你問過了環境部叫你們提供過去五年依廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關申請假扣押的案件你們說啊你們說這個一共主管機關申請假扣押有三件法院主席兩件撥回一件\n272151\t277194\t那該駁回案的金額是5億4千多萬駁回的理由是因為申請人對相對人的金錢給付債權或請求權尚未發生意思就是說你剛才不開錢 你剛才不去請你現在就要去請了 開錢 開了啊這可以吃虧啊你如果等你開錢了 請了啊你剛開始請的時候他就脫線了啦 脫線了啊事務面我們都知道 但是這樣\n302288\t328681\t換你這樣認定 我最怕是成為判例法院都這樣講 因為現有的法律現有的法律工具看起來也的確長得很像藉其不為清除處理時 地方政府主管機關或執行機構得待為清除處理並向其上面的這些有責任的人求償清理改善及衍生之必要費用\n329261\t340430\t藉其如果沒有清償者 移送強制執行所以法律工具的確就是你要清料啊 才可以去吃褲子不用說大家也遭料料保證你對這個實務面 土法不足以執行如果法律工具也有問題\n348115\t375366\t執行面也有問題為什麼這麼久都沒有處理過好 包委員您提到的都是重點就是我們跟那個檢警調還有一個平台其實討論的就是委員您說到的問題就是裡面的核心那目前呢我們希望修法的就是71條裡面希望說還是一樣我有看到對 我們希望這個部分能夠再加強我現在先講一下您的行政處我說喔 您到底過去五年啊等於政府去申請恰恰 您說三件嘛\n376346\t404646\t其實這三件裡面我剛剛講的那一件112年的這一個文號判例裁定其實你們也不放在裡面都沒有放在裡面所以柏定你們這個假扣押的案件跟數據你提供個立委的到底是怎麼算的為什麼才這個寥寥可數啊個案沒幾件然後就可以這樣子我如果看到那一件你如果不說那一件你如果不說提供的資料都不全\n406670\t434953\t委員我請署長來回覆署長認識他三十年了我們所提供的那個資料是指找不到行為人的那個部分然後再去就是找不到行為人71條第一項沒有在管有沒有找得到行為人有行為人更好抓到了更好沒有的話也有善良管理人責任的第九大家都知道\n436834\t449040\t我告訴你 我要跟你討好資料說你有去申請假扣押制五年到底有幾件你有立委的資料 說三件 立委自己去找來就一件 你就沒有列入在內啊你們提供立委的基本資料就提供不全欸我怎麼想說你們可能整個部都沒有人在管這些事情吧你現在就跟我說未來修法會處理 未來修法就可以解決了嗎\n466058\t485184\t未來修法你們未來的修法你們要預告假扣押制度但是法院你們沒有明確的去降低市民的標準法院要求需市民義務人有日後不能或難以強制執行之餘這要怎麼舉證\n488244\t496998\t現在範圍的判例是說他沒有跟你交集也沒有跟你提清理計劃你要怎麼證明這樣他就會脫產\n500543\t517348\t你的草案未來草案是說修正申請假扣押的時間點但沒有在法條文字中直接降低或修改市民有日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘這一個要件的證明標準\n518803\t537845\t那法院是否會認為,在未來他是不是會認為,你來想說,好,我換你去改改,我可以先扣押,把扣押的順序不要從這個清理完畢,把它提早到只要一發現行政送達,你都沒回覆,我就馬上給你加扣押。\n539246\t563407\t你們是這樣修嘛但是這個未來法院是不是會認為說行政處分以送達他這個本身就足夠構成夾扣押的急迫性和必要性嗎這個在司法實務的見解上可能還會有問題喔而且你們是得或是應還是這個那如果法院能夠維持目前這種\n564748\t589234\t比較嚴格的市民標準假扣押的執行都不會產生問題嗎你不知道報委員這個我們把你的意見因為我們現在希望說趕快匯集完了之後可以有一個預告那我們會把委員的意見看能不能趕得及把這次就把它進行修正不是因為我跟我們我再講一下根據環境\n590274\t596101\t鋪自己的統計過去五年依照行政執行法第29條除了機關隊為旅行這個清理義務的義務人預估去帶旅行費用並發出繳納命令的案件一共有133件總費用金額高達79億9986萬將近80億\n610526\t613348\t那為什麼會啟動第七十一條第一項因為這個欧美丹 四月份去欧美丹顯然有足生於環境和健康風險你們才啟動的這一條七十一條第一項嘛阿不然全台灣欧美丹的地方全都霸凌啦\n628857\t648195\t整個10萬個地方啦那為什麼要鎖定第71條第一項來討論因為第71條第一項啟動的條款顯然就是危害健康 危害污染土地 污染地下水土壤等等非常嚴重的 你才需要介入在這種狀況裡面你們評估啊在過去5年大家有40年要開啦但是\n653993\t667637\t真的有來納一年薪 兩千控備者六萬四千兩百二十二元 2086-4222我的意思是說有八十億的帶旅行費用 只有0.26%的人有繳錢有99.74%是\n674059\t675520\t想要讓政府買單那據此的話這個狀況的話這個71條第一項我要講現行的現有的法律是這個追償的系統是不好的法律工具有問題失效的不能執行的\n692230\t704024\t在條法律 有立跟不立一樣有這條法律跟不這條法律一樣這個顯然有兩個問題嘛第一個 法律工具本身有問題第二個 執行面有問題\n705615\t722987\t那顯然這兩個問題都存在顯然這兩個問題都存在而且這麼多年來你現在要修廢清法才說要處理可是在之前就法律工具真的完全這麼不足嗎我們都不要主動去找司法院處理過嗎\n724788\t744370\t那我現在一直要講判例的原因是因為高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號的裁定法院認為環保機關必須實際代為清除後使得依廢清法第71條第一項向鄉對人求償必要的費用而且他有示明喔\n745765\t759780\t他要求要4名義務人員日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘那這種舉證標準幾乎都讓環保機關無法實際運用假扣押制度\n761321\t776047\t那從實際狀況的執行面來看醫護人根本只要擺爛不繳納反正就交給政府來收拾那從另外一個角度來看行政執行法的代旅行程序或是廢清法第71條第一項的求償這個如果\n782599\t801195\t有效的話 如果有效的話 那麼廢清法根本不用設置假扣押的這個機制 所以其實是無效的就是說現有的法律工具71條的這個可以假扣押 或者是行政執行法的代理型程序通通法律工具都無效\n802984\t805146\t那我要再講一個實務面 這個部長最近不法集團在那個碼頭山 高雄的碼頭山自然生態保育區棄置失業費期務一案那檢察官初步的估計\n820058\t827280\t遷運這個廢棄物的費用大概要超過一億肇事的七名逃犯喔遷運的費用幾億但是抓到了抓到了肇事 這個非法肇事的這些涉嫌人喔幾萬九百 你知道嗎八萬 七萬 五萬\n839116\t855892\t交保的金額跟清理費用相比為不足道然後這些背後 只是還有後面的指示集團所以他們很容易脫產 大家都知道沒有辦法假扣押 然後沒有辦法追回這個清理的費用\n857020\t883308\t所以在這種狀況裡面 環境部在你說要修法之前修法的法律工具 我其實覺得這樣夠嗎 我是有一個問號但是在這個之前 比如說碼頭山這個案子 你有沒有具體的對策因為碼頭山那個是屬於 要不要回答一下屬於什麼 這個都地方政府要去執行的 跟我們中央都無關\n884764\t912962\t署長很簡單,一定這樣說就好了那都地方政府要去做,跟我無關的報告委員,那個碼頭山那個齁,應該是犯罪所得是可以扣押得到的,我們從那裡去做處理啦你說什麼所?犯罪所得犯罪所得?對,就是他的不法立得那個部分不法立得,因為貴賓公司很大件的嗎?這個還要再去清查一下你若不吃扣押,脫產了啦\n914093\t918140\t破產了啦 公司改善了啦 再重新立一間新公司就好了啦\n919690\t944140\t你們在這裡跟立委講的 你有沒有想過 你說這麼幼稚的回答沒聽到這個回答 這麼幼稚你現在的動作 你不是幼稚園的學生喔你當成民主會是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當成外環委員會的委員是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當立法院的立委 中華民國立法院的立委都是笨蛋還是白癡嗎\n946141\t969797\t你跟我說這是生肖欸保證你覺得這個會打生肖欸我就是希望說這個可以如何才可以更好啦那委員的提的建議你都這樣說你都說虛的沒有啦沒有啦這個現在其實希望修正的希望委員的意見我們可以再進來我就跟你講啦這個是立法這個是環境部最核心的業務不是去談\n972419\t997436\t節能減碳 碳費 碳稅不是剛剛講的那個綠能不是為什麼會有這種非法氣質最源頭就是你們管理的不好你們信業廢棄物的管理就是很爛才會有廢物這個廢棄物毀壞的才會有污染土地 污染地下水上游的管理就出問題了才會有這種小小四處在外面亂丟 亂氣質\n1000822\t1002685\t所以你的善有全部都沒有管好耶你的輸定就在那裡,是非管理都出很多問題\n1010871\t1030966\t然後在問你問到這個東西你又在這裡虛以為疑過去五年 主管機關對於未履行清理義務的義務人須預估待履行費用並依行政執行法發出繳納命令的總案件數是133依據廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關待會清除或處理廢棄物並向清理義務人求償費用的案件總共53件133然後這個有去\n1041694\t1066866\t提出球場費用的只有53那133只有53去提出要球場只有三件去申請假扣押請問部長你們有沒有研究一下主管機關為什麼沒有積極的申請假扣押的原因是什麼為什麼讓違規者有機會轉移資產為什麼老是幫政府要幫這一種犯罪的人在那裡擦屁股呢\n1068087\t1073291\t或是為盡善良管理人責任的人在那裡插屁股呢在環境保護跟公帑帶清除之間要怎麼取得平衡啊擋不擋的抗人民支開這個緊急忽然之餘,我們今天先去清澳有些地方沒有錢啊,中間有沒有變價錢,有沒有變得高沒有啦,中間有沒有變價錢啦\n1093168\t1117098\t那如果危害健康和環境之餘的怎麼辦?危害健康和環境之餘的,就跟他斷了啊,繼續斷了啊所以面臨一個這麼嚴重的問題,違規棄置非棄物的人查到的時候,就像剛才蘇丁說的,炸就脫蒜了,還要再把我凍著可以追回不法所得,不法利得,騙笑欸,政府根本追不回來啊\n1118297\t1141188\t而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合等到法律程序跑完違規者早就資產轉移不要講等到法律程序啦你們自己內部還在這樣子跟立委講話政府乾瞪眼 立委在那裡說到有錢沒拿 也是沒好最後都是全民買單 或是全民給放在那因為地方政府不編列這個預算 擺爛因為球場也球場不回來\n1146258\t1158317\t所以政府的預算這麼有限面對這些非法棄置的問題所以如果沒有立即危害或是到健康或是公共這個環境甚至有立即危害你也是不會做啦這樣狀況\n1163838\t1170722\t所以你們提供的資料 到今年2月20日為止 非法棄置的列管案件1130件解除列管的690件 持續列管的440件\n1179534\t1184075\t這個氣質的長殖類型多樣 廢棄物的種類數量長殖位置 清理成本不一 連平均清理成本都算不出來這樣子下去喔 大家有用看用歐北豆 沒要緊 釀沒中 釀中也太善 沒要緊它會變成破窗效應\n1203419\t1217719\t大家別的違規則看到政府不處理可以更肆無忌憚制度面有破洞 抓不到 靠不到問題越來越嚴重好 我知道你一直看我啦 我把時間最後講一下啦\n1219710\t1241593\t我們幫這些違規的人插屁股 是在圖利私人 可是不處理的話也不行那監察院有對你們做幾個建議啊監察院調查報告有建議說 刻以行則啊沒有這個依法提供 或是沒有提交處理計畫書或清理廢棄物 直接刻以行則啊\n1242774\t1269254\t第二個假扣押制度的改革明確的降低假扣押的舉證標準或規定特定情況下可推定有假扣押原因存在以增加環保機關保全球場權利的可能性那你們提出的版本是不是就足以構成這樣的一個條件到時候我們可以來看看但是還有一個比照土屋法修法所講土屋法當初就在講了你不要讓我抓到\n1271956\t1293776\t抓到的時候 污染者如果是公司 不是公司解散了就好了公司的負責人主要股東或者是連間接控制公司的投資人都要負擔清理費用永遠跑不掉負最終的清理責任公司倒了\n1294497\t1304077\t污染責任還是存在普法就說即使企業因為合併分割或其他方式消失負責任股東仍然要付清理費\n1306019\t1319330\t違規不繳清理費 還可以加收滯納金和罰款讀法第43條 強制規定汙染者不繳清理費 除了收0.5%每天喔0.5%的滯納金 超過30天還要罰款20到100萬來 交換下去所以林費清罰 跟剛才說的一個假扣押\n1332219\t1335440\t畢竟我剛才說這有道理嗎 比照圖無法公司改善主要的投資者負責人大股東都負連帶永遠的最終的清理責任 跑不掉沒得六次納金阿哥吃苦鴨 阿哥罰款連續罰 一直罰罰到1%這樣可以嗎\n1360984\t1374562\t委員你的建議非常好啦你們的版本都沒有這監察院調查報告也建議我會把委員的建議把它放在我們預告的法規裡面好 那就要修正一下喔好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長 有請彭部長李委員好\n肥清法第71條 甲扣鴨的制度在食物上大概是形同虛設\n就是說廢清法第71條規定主管機關依廢清法第71條第一項規定待為清除廢棄物後向醫務人求償必要費用時若醫務人不願意繳納環保機關應有權向法院申請假扣押但是在實務上你去行政法院對假扣押的審查極為嚴格然後我們很多都被駁回\n那更多的是我們連申請都不願意申請那我現在是要以高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號裁定為例為什麼要談這個是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例法院的單一個案的判決成為判例\n那這個影響就很大那高雄高等行政法院112年度的這個裁定是這樣子環保局預估代為清理的費用是92746243元所以依法申請假扣押那申請人雖然是在高雄高等行政法院但申請人是台南市政府環保局申請的理由包括相對人借其了\n人為繳納預估帶旅行清理非法棄置的廢棄物的費用他沒有自己去繳錢那也沒有提出清理廢棄物的意願 嫌有隱匿或遺傳財產的可能這是地方政府申請的 寫的原因\n結果被法院認為市民不足而駁回解釋的是明白的明 市民不足而駁回法院是這樣看的 第一點關於廢清法第七十一條第一項環保機關必須實際執行待清理才能依照廢清法向相對人請求清理費用\n那由於申請人沒有提供足夠的證據去證明已經開始執行清理因此法院難以認定他們有已成立的公法上的金錢債權也就是說申請人沒有取得合法的清償權利所以沒有辦法依據此去申請假扣押\n第二個 關於行政執行法第29條第二項即便相對人沒有在期限內履行清理義務法院認為 這個可能比較大的問題在這裡申請人所提供的證據只能證明請求清理費的原因但不足以證明相對人有資產轉移或無法執行的風險\n你可能看到他沒有交錢但你沒有要證明你現在就是可以吃苦鴨因為你沒有要證明這個人他要把他的財產轉移換言之法院不認為單純未繳納代旅行費用就足以證明相對人將來無法強制執行所以因此駁回吃苦鴨申請全台灣社會大家都知道\n高等行政法院 高雄行政法院認為\n撥回扣押的申請所以我們現在我這個事情我們也跟你問過了環境部叫你們提供過去五年依廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關申請假扣押的案件你們說啊你們說這個一共主管機關申請假扣押有三件法院主席兩件撥回一件\n那該駁回案的金額是5億4千多萬駁回的理由是因為申請人對相對人的金錢給付債權或請求權尚未發生意思就是說你剛才不開錢 你剛才不去請你現在就要去請了 開錢 開了啊這可以吃虧啊你如果等你開錢了 請了啊你剛開始請的時候他就脫線了啦 脫線了啊事務面我們都知道 但是這樣\n換你這樣認定 我最怕是成為判例法院都這樣講 因為現有的法律現有的法律工具看起來也的確長得很像藉其不為清除處理時 地方政府主管機關或執行機構得待為清除處理並向其上面的這些有責任的人求償清理改善及衍生之必要費用\n藉其如果沒有清償者 移送強制執行所以法律工具的確就是你要清料啊 才可以去吃褲子不用說大家也遭料料保證你對這個實務面 土法不足以執行如果法律工具也有問題\n執行面也有問題為什麼這麼久都沒有處理過好 包委員您提到的都是重點就是我們跟那個檢警調還有一個平台其實討論的就是委員您說到的問題就是裡面的核心那目前呢我們希望修法的就是71條裡面希望說還是一樣我有看到對 我們希望這個部分能夠再加強我現在先講一下您的行政處我說喔 您到底過去五年啊等於政府去申請恰恰 您說三件嘛\n其實這三件裡面我剛剛講的那一件112年的這一個文號判例裁定其實你們也不放在裡面都沒有放在裡面所以柏定你們這個假扣押的案件跟數據你提供個立委的到底是怎麼算的為什麼才這個寥寥可數啊個案沒幾件然後就可以這樣子我如果看到那一件你如果不說那一件你如果不說提供的資料都不全\n委員我請署長來回覆署長認識他三十年了我們所提供的那個資料是指找不到行為人的那個部分然後再去就是找不到行為人71條第一項沒有在管有沒有找得到行為人有行為人更好抓到了更好沒有的話也有善良管理人責任的第九大家都知道\n我告訴你 我要跟你討好資料說你有去申請假扣押制五年到底有幾件你有立委的資料 說三件 立委自己去找來就一件 你就沒有列入在內啊你們提供立委的基本資料就提供不全欸我怎麼想說你們可能整個部都沒有人在管這些事情吧你現在就跟我說未來修法會處理 未來修法就可以解決了嗎\n未來修法你們未來的修法你們要預告假扣押制度但是法院你們沒有明確的去降低市民的標準法院要求需市民義務人有日後不能或難以強制執行之餘這要怎麼舉證\n現在範圍的判例是說他沒有跟你交集也沒有跟你提清理計劃你要怎麼證明這樣他就會脫產\n你的草案未來草案是說修正申請假扣押的時間點但沒有在法條文字中直接降低或修改市民有日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘這一個要件的證明標準\n那法院是否會認為,在未來他是不是會認為,你來想說,好,我換你去改改,我可以先扣押,把扣押的順序不要從這個清理完畢,把它提早到只要一發現行政送達,你都沒回覆,我就馬上給你加扣押。\n你們是這樣修嘛但是這個未來法院是不是會認為說行政處分以送達他這個本身就足夠構成夾扣押的急迫性和必要性嗎這個在司法實務的見解上可能還會有問題喔而且你們是得或是應還是這個那如果法院能夠維持目前這種\n比較嚴格的市民標準假扣押的執行都不會產生問題嗎你不知道報委員這個我們把你的意見因為我們現在希望說趕快匯集完了之後可以有一個預告那我們會把委員的意見看能不能趕得及把這次就把它進行修正不是因為我跟我們我再講一下根據環境\n鋪自己的統計過去五年依照行政執行法第29條除了機關隊為旅行這個清理義務的義務人預估去帶旅行費用並發出繳納命令的案件一共有133件總費用金額高達79億9986萬將近80億\n那為什麼會啟動第七十一條第一項因為這個欧美丹 四月份去欧美丹顯然有足生於環境和健康風險你們才啟動的這一條七十一條第一項嘛阿不然全台灣欧美丹的地方全都霸凌啦\n整個10萬個地方啦那為什麼要鎖定第71條第一項來討論因為第71條第一項啟動的條款顯然就是危害健康 危害污染土地 污染地下水土壤等等非常嚴重的 你才需要介入在這種狀況裡面你們評估啊在過去5年大家有40年要開啦但是\n真的有來納一年薪 兩千控備者六萬四千兩百二十二元 2086-4222我的意思是說有八十億的帶旅行費用 只有0.26%的人有繳錢有99.74%是\n想要讓政府買單那據此的話這個狀況的話這個71條第一項我要講現行的現有的法律是這個追償的系統是不好的法律工具有問題失效的不能執行的\n在條法律 有立跟不立一樣有這條法律跟不這條法律一樣這個顯然有兩個問題嘛第一個 法律工具本身有問題第二個 執行面有問題\n那顯然這兩個問題都存在顯然這兩個問題都存在而且這麼多年來你現在要修廢清法才說要處理可是在之前就法律工具真的完全這麼不足嗎我們都不要主動去找司法院處理過嗎\n那我現在一直要講判例的原因是因為高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號的裁定法院認為環保機關必須實際代為清除後使得依廢清法第71條第一項向鄉對人求償必要的費用而且他有示明喔\n他要求要4名義務人員日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘那這種舉證標準幾乎都讓環保機關無法實際運用假扣押制度\n那從實際狀況的執行面來看醫護人根本只要擺爛不繳納反正就交給政府來收拾那從另外一個角度來看行政執行法的代旅行程序或是廢清法第71條第一項的求償這個如果\n有效的話 如果有效的話 那麼廢清法根本不用設置假扣押的這個機制 所以其實是無效的就是說現有的法律工具71條的這個可以假扣押 或者是行政執行法的代理型程序通通法律工具都無效\n那我要再講一個實務面 這個部長最近不法集團在那個碼頭山 高雄的碼頭山自然生態保育區棄置失業費期務一案那檢察官初步的估計\n遷運這個廢棄物的費用大概要超過一億肇事的七名逃犯喔遷運的費用幾億但是抓到了抓到了肇事 這個非法肇事的這些涉嫌人喔幾萬九百 你知道嗎八萬 七萬 五萬\n交保的金額跟清理費用相比為不足道然後這些背後 只是還有後面的指示集團所以他們很容易脫產 大家都知道沒有辦法假扣押 然後沒有辦法追回這個清理的費用\n所以在這種狀況裡面 環境部在你說要修法之前修法的法律工具 我其實覺得這樣夠嗎 我是有一個問號但是在這個之前 比如說碼頭山這個案子 你有沒有具體的對策因為碼頭山那個是屬於 要不要回答一下屬於什麼 這個都地方政府要去執行的 跟我們中央都無關\n署長很簡單,一定這樣說就好了那都地方政府要去做,跟我無關的報告委員,那個碼頭山那個齁,應該是犯罪所得是可以扣押得到的,我們從那裡去做處理啦你說什麼所?犯罪所得犯罪所得?對,就是他的不法立得那個部分不法立得,因為貴賓公司很大件的嗎?這個還要再去清查一下你若不吃扣押,脫產了啦\n破產了啦 公司改善了啦 再重新立一間新公司就好了啦\n你們在這裡跟立委講的 你有沒有想過 你說這麼幼稚的回答沒聽到這個回答 這麼幼稚你現在的動作 你不是幼稚園的學生喔你當成民主會是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當成外環委員會的委員是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當立法院的立委 中華民國立法院的立委都是笨蛋還是白癡嗎\n你跟我說這是生肖欸保證你覺得這個會打生肖欸我就是希望說這個可以如何才可以更好啦那委員的提的建議你都這樣說你都說虛的沒有啦沒有啦這個現在其實希望修正的希望委員的意見我們可以再進來我就跟你講啦這個是立法這個是環境部最核心的業務不是去談\n節能減碳 碳費 碳稅不是剛剛講的那個綠能不是為什麼會有這種非法氣質最源頭就是你們管理的不好你們信業廢棄物的管理就是很爛才會有廢物這個廢棄物毀壞的才會有污染土地 污染地下水上游的管理就出問題了才會有這種小小四處在外面亂丟 亂氣質\n所以你的善有全部都沒有管好耶你的輸定就在那裡,是非管理都出很多問題\n然後在問你問到這個東西你又在這裡虛以為疑過去五年 主管機關對於未履行清理義務的義務人須預估待履行費用並依行政執行法發出繳納命令的總案件數是133依據廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關待會清除或處理廢棄物並向清理義務人求償費用的案件總共53件133然後這個有去\n提出球場費用的只有53那133只有53去提出要球場只有三件去申請假扣押請問部長你們有沒有研究一下主管機關為什麼沒有積極的申請假扣押的原因是什麼為什麼讓違規者有機會轉移資產為什麼老是幫政府要幫這一種犯罪的人在那裡擦屁股呢\n或是為盡善良管理人責任的人在那裡插屁股呢在環境保護跟公帑帶清除之間要怎麼取得平衡啊擋不擋的抗人民支開這個緊急忽然之餘,我們今天先去清澳有些地方沒有錢啊,中間有沒有變價錢,有沒有變得高沒有啦,中間有沒有變價錢啦\n那如果危害健康和環境之餘的怎麼辦?危害健康和環境之餘的,就跟他斷了啊,繼續斷了啊所以面臨一個這麼嚴重的問題,違規棄置非棄物的人查到的時候,就像剛才蘇丁說的,炸就脫蒜了,還要再把我凍著可以追回不法所得,不法利得,騙笑欸,政府根本追不回來啊\n而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合等到法律程序跑完違規者早就資產轉移不要講等到法律程序啦你們自己內部還在這樣子跟立委講話政府乾瞪眼 立委在那裡說到有錢沒拿 也是沒好最後都是全民買單 或是全民給放在那因為地方政府不編列這個預算 擺爛因為球場也球場不回來\n所以政府的預算這麼有限面對這些非法棄置的問題所以如果沒有立即危害或是到健康或是公共這個環境甚至有立即危害你也是不會做啦這樣狀況\n所以你們提供的資料 到今年2月20日為止 非法棄置的列管案件1130件解除列管的690件 持續列管的440件\n這個氣質的長殖類型多樣 廢棄物的種類數量長殖位置 清理成本不一 連平均清理成本都算不出來這樣子下去喔 大家有用看用歐北豆 沒要緊 釀沒中 釀中也太善 沒要緊它會變成破窗效應\n大家別的違規則看到政府不處理可以更肆無忌憚制度面有破洞 抓不到 靠不到問題越來越嚴重好 我知道你一直看我啦 我把時間最後講一下啦\n我們幫這些違規的人插屁股 是在圖利私人 可是不處理的話也不行那監察院有對你們做幾個建議啊監察院調查報告有建議說 刻以行則啊沒有這個依法提供 或是沒有提交處理計畫書或清理廢棄物 直接刻以行則啊\n第二個假扣押制度的改革明確的降低假扣押的舉證標準或規定特定情況下可推定有假扣押原因存在以增加環保機關保全球場權利的可能性那你們提出的版本是不是就足以構成這樣的一個條件到時候我們可以來看看但是還有一個比照土屋法修法所講土屋法當初就在講了你不要讓我抓到\n抓到的時候 污染者如果是公司 不是公司解散了就好了公司的負責人主要股東或者是連間接控制公司的投資人都要負擔清理費用永遠跑不掉負最終的清理責任公司倒了\n污染責任還是存在普法就說即使企業因為合併分割或其他方式消失負責任股東仍然要付清理費\n違規不繳清理費 還可以加收滯納金和罰款讀法第43條 強制規定汙染者不繳清理費 除了收0.5%每天喔0.5%的滯納金 超過30天還要罰款20到100萬來 交換下去所以林費清罰 跟剛才說的一個假扣押\n畢竟我剛才說這有道理嗎 比照圖無法公司改善主要的投資者負責人大股東都負連帶永遠的最終的清理責任 跑不掉沒得六次納金阿哥吃苦鴨 阿哥罰款連續罰 一直罰罰到1%這樣可以嗎\n委員你的建議非常好啦你們的版本都沒有這監察院調查報告也建議我會把委員的建議把它放在我們預告的法規裡面好 那就要修正一下喔好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.264 --> 00:14.376\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們彭部長有請彭部長李委員好\n\n00:15.452 --> 00:17.813\n肥清法第71條甲扣鴨的制度在食物上大概是形同虛設\n\n00:35.502 --> 01:02.758\n就是說廢清法第71條規定主管機關依廢清法第71條第一項規定待為清除廢棄物後向醫務人求償必要費用時若醫務人不願意繳納環保機關應有權向法院申請假扣押但是在實務上你去行政法院對假扣押的審查極為嚴格然後我們很多都被駁回\n\n01:03.598 --> 01:22.249\n那更多的是我們連申請都不願意申請那我現在是要以高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號裁定為例為什麼要談這個是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例法院的單一個案的判決成為判例\n\n01:26.872 --> 01:55.427\n那這個影響就很大那高雄高等行政法院112年度的這個裁定是這樣子環保局預估代為清理的費用是92746243元所以依法申請假扣押那申請人雖然是在高雄高等行政法院但申請人是台南市政府環保局申請的理由包括相對人借其了\n\n01:56.147 --> 02:07.896\n人為繳納預估帶旅行清理非法棄置的廢棄物的費用他沒有自己去繳錢那也沒有提出清理廢棄物的意願嫌有隱匿或遺傳財產的可能這是地方政府申請的寫的原因\n\n02:15.502 --> 02:38.111\n結果被法院認為市民不足而駁回解釋的是明白的明市民不足而駁回法院是這樣看的第一點關於廢清法第七十一條第一項環保機關必須實際執行待清理才能依照廢清法向相對人請求清理費用\n\n02:38.971 --> 03:00.579\n那由於申請人沒有提供足夠的證據去證明已經開始執行清理因此法院難以認定他們有已成立的公法上的金錢債權也就是說申請人沒有取得合法的清償權利所以沒有辦法依據此去申請假扣押\n\n03:02.301 --> 03:24.841\n第二個關於行政執行法第29條第二項即便相對人沒有在期限內履行清理義務法院認為這個可能比較大的問題在這裡申請人所提供的證據只能證明請求清理費的原因但不足以證明相對人有資產轉移或無法執行的風險\n\n03:27.120 --> 03:33.942\n你可能看到他沒有交錢但你沒有要證明你現在就是可以吃苦鴨因為你沒有要證明這個人他要把他的財產轉移換言之法院不認為單純未繳納代旅行費用就足以證明相對人將來無法強制執行所以因此駁回吃苦鴨申請全台灣社會大家都知道\n\n03:50.607 --> 03:52.450\n高等行政法院高雄行政法院認為\n\n04:07.849 --> 04:30.670\n撥回扣押的申請所以我們現在我這個事情我們也跟你問過了環境部叫你們提供過去五年依廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關申請假扣押的案件你們說啊你們說這個一共主管機關申請假扣押有三件法院主席兩件撥回一件\n\n04:32.151 --> 04:37.194\n那該駁回案的金額是5億4千多萬駁回的理由是因為申請人對相對人的金錢給付債權或請求權尚未發生意思就是說你剛才不開錢你剛才不去請你現在就要去請了開錢開了啊這可以吃虧啊你如果等你開錢了請了啊你剛開始請的時候他就脫線了啦脫線了啊事務面我們都知道但是這樣\n\n05:02.288 --> 05:28.681\n換你這樣認定我最怕是成為判例法院都這樣講因為現有的法律現有的法律工具看起來也的確長得很像藉其不為清除處理時地方政府主管機關或執行機構得待為清除處理並向其上面的這些有責任的人求償清理改善及衍生之必要費用\n\n05:29.261 --> 05:40.430\n藉其如果沒有清償者移送強制執行所以法律工具的確就是你要清料啊才可以去吃褲子不用說大家也遭料料保證你對這個實務面土法不足以執行如果法律工具也有問題\n\n05:48.115 --> 06:15.366\n執行面也有問題為什麼這麼久都沒有處理過好包委員您提到的都是重點就是我們跟那個檢警調還有一個平台其實討論的就是委員您說到的問題就是裡面的核心那目前呢我們希望修法的就是71條裡面希望說還是一樣我有看到對我們希望這個部分能夠再加強我現在先講一下您的行政處我說喔您到底過去五年啊等於政府去申請恰恰您說三件嘛\n\n06:16.346 --> 06:44.646\n其實這三件裡面我剛剛講的那一件112年的這一個文號判例裁定其實你們也不放在裡面都沒有放在裡面所以柏定你們這個假扣押的案件跟數據你提供個立委的到底是怎麼算的為什麼才這個寥寥可數啊個案沒幾件然後就可以這樣子我如果看到那一件你如果不說那一件你如果不說提供的資料都不全\n\n06:46.670 --> 07:14.953\n委員我請署長來回覆署長認識他三十年了我們所提供的那個資料是指找不到行為人的那個部分然後再去就是找不到行為人71條第一項沒有在管有沒有找得到行為人有行為人更好抓到了更好沒有的話也有善良管理人責任的第九大家都知道\n\n07:16.834 --> 07:29.040\n我告訴你我要跟你討好資料說你有去申請假扣押制五年到底有幾件你有立委的資料說三件立委自己去找來就一件你就沒有列入在內啊你們提供立委的基本資料就提供不全欸我怎麼想說你們可能整個部都沒有人在管這些事情吧你現在就跟我說未來修法會處理未來修法就可以解決了嗎\n\n07:46.058 --> 08:05.184\n未來修法你們未來的修法你們要預告假扣押制度但是法院你們沒有明確的去降低市民的標準法院要求需市民義務人有日後不能或難以強制執行之餘這要怎麼舉證\n\n08:08.244 --> 08:16.998\n現在範圍的判例是說他沒有跟你交集也沒有跟你提清理計劃你要怎麼證明這樣他就會脫產\n\n08:20.543 --> 08:37.348\n你的草案未來草案是說修正申請假扣押的時間點但沒有在法條文字中直接降低或修改市民有日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘這一個要件的證明標準\n\n08:38.803 --> 08:57.845\n那法院是否會認為,在未來他是不是會認為,你來想說,好,我換你去改改,我可以先扣押,把扣押的順序不要從這個清理完畢,把它提早到只要一發現行政送達,你都沒回覆,我就馬上給你加扣押。\n\n08:59.246 --> 09:23.407\n你們是這樣修嘛但是這個未來法院是不是會認為說行政處分以送達他這個本身就足夠構成夾扣押的急迫性和必要性嗎這個在司法實務的見解上可能還會有問題喔而且你們是得或是應還是這個那如果法院能夠維持目前這種\n\n09:24.748 --> 09:49.234\n比較嚴格的市民標準假扣押的執行都不會產生問題嗎你不知道報委員這個我們把你的意見因為我們現在希望說趕快匯集完了之後可以有一個預告那我們會把委員的意見看能不能趕得及把這次就把它進行修正不是因為我跟我們我再講一下根據環境\n\n09:50.274 --> 09:56.101\n鋪自己的統計過去五年依照行政執行法第29條除了機關隊為旅行這個清理義務的義務人預估去帶旅行費用並發出繳納命令的案件一共有133件總費用金額高達79億9986萬將近80億\n\n10:10.526 --> 10:13.348\n那為什麼會啟動第七十一條第一項因為這個欧美丹四月份去欧美丹顯然有足生於環境和健康風險你們才啟動的這一條七十一條第一項嘛阿不然全台灣欧美丹的地方全都霸凌啦\n\n10:28.857 --> 10:48.195\n整個10萬個地方啦那為什麼要鎖定第71條第一項來討論因為第71條第一項啟動的條款顯然就是危害健康危害污染土地污染地下水土壤等等非常嚴重的你才需要介入在這種狀況裡面你們評估啊在過去5年大家有40年要開啦但是\n\n10:53.993 --> 11:07.637\n真的有來納一年薪兩千控備者六萬四千兩百二十二元2086-4222我的意思是說有八十億的帶旅行費用只有0.26%的人有繳錢有99.74%是\n\n11:14.059 --> 11:15.520\n想要讓政府買單那據此的話這個狀況的話這個71條第一項我要講現行的現有的法律是這個追償的系統是不好的法律工具有問題失效的不能執行的\n\n11:32.230 --> 11:44.024\n在條法律有立跟不立一樣有這條法律跟不這條法律一樣這個顯然有兩個問題嘛第一個法律工具本身有問題第二個執行面有問題\n\n11:45.615 --> 12:02.987\n那顯然這兩個問題都存在顯然這兩個問題都存在而且這麼多年來你現在要修廢清法才說要處理可是在之前就法律工具真的完全這麼不足嗎我們都不要主動去找司法院處理過嗎\n\n12:04.788 --> 12:24.370\n那我現在一直要講判例的原因是因為高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號的裁定法院認為環保機關必須實際代為清除後使得依廢清法第71條第一項向鄉對人求償必要的費用而且他有示明喔\n\n12:25.765 --> 12:39.780\n他要求要4名義務人員日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘那這種舉證標準幾乎都讓環保機關無法實際運用假扣押制度\n\n12:41.321 --> 12:56.047\n那從實際狀況的執行面來看醫護人根本只要擺爛不繳納反正就交給政府來收拾那從另外一個角度來看行政執行法的代旅行程序或是廢清法第71條第一項的求償這個如果\n\n13:02.599 --> 13:21.195\n有效的話如果有效的話那麼廢清法根本不用設置假扣押的這個機制所以其實是無效的就是說現有的法律工具71條的這個可以假扣押或者是行政執行法的代理型程序通通法律工具都無效\n\n13:22.984 --> 13:25.146\n那我要再講一個實務面這個部長最近不法集團在那個碼頭山高雄的碼頭山自然生態保育區棄置失業費期務一案那檢察官初步的估計\n\n13:40.058 --> 13:47.280\n遷運這個廢棄物的費用大概要超過一億肇事的七名逃犯喔遷運的費用幾億但是抓到了抓到了肇事這個非法肇事的這些涉嫌人喔幾萬九百你知道嗎八萬七萬五萬\n\n13:59.116 --> 14:15.892\n交保的金額跟清理費用相比為不足道然後這些背後只是還有後面的指示集團所以他們很容易脫產大家都知道沒有辦法假扣押然後沒有辦法追回這個清理的費用\n\n14:17.020 --> 14:43.308\n所以在這種狀況裡面環境部在你說要修法之前修法的法律工具我其實覺得這樣夠嗎我是有一個問號但是在這個之前比如說碼頭山這個案子你有沒有具體的對策因為碼頭山那個是屬於要不要回答一下屬於什麼這個都地方政府要去執行的跟我們中央都無關\n\n14:44.764 --> 15:12.962\n署長很簡單,一定這樣說就好了那都地方政府要去做,跟我無關的報告委員,那個碼頭山那個齁,應該是犯罪所得是可以扣押得到的,我們從那裡去做處理啦你說什麼所?犯罪所得犯罪所得?對,就是他的不法立得那個部分不法立得,因為貴賓公司很大件的嗎?這個還要再去清查一下你若不吃扣押,脫產了啦\n\n15:14.093 --> 15:18.140\n破產了啦公司改善了啦再重新立一間新公司就好了啦\n\n15:19.690 --> 15:44.140\n你們在這裡跟立委講的你有沒有想過你說這麼幼稚的回答沒聽到這個回答這麼幼稚你現在的動作你不是幼稚園的學生喔你當成民主會是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當成外環委員會的委員是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當立法院的立委中華民國立法院的立委都是笨蛋還是白癡嗎\n\n15:46.141 --> 16:09.797\n你跟我說這是生肖欸保證你覺得這個會打生肖欸我就是希望說這個可以如何才可以更好啦那委員的提的建議你都這樣說你都說虛的沒有啦沒有啦這個現在其實希望修正的希望委員的意見我們可以再進來我就跟你講啦這個是立法這個是環境部最核心的業務不是去談\n\n16:12.419 --> 16:37.436\n節能減碳碳費碳稅不是剛剛講的那個綠能不是為什麼會有這種非法氣質最源頭就是你們管理的不好你們信業廢棄物的管理就是很爛才會有廢物這個廢棄物毀壞的才會有污染土地污染地下水上游的管理就出問題了才會有這種小小四處在外面亂丟亂氣質\n\n16:40.822 --> 16:42.685\n所以你的善有全部都沒有管好耶你的輸定就在那裡,是非管理都出很多問題\n\n16:50.871 --> 17:10.966\n然後在問你問到這個東西你又在這裡虛以為疑過去五年主管機關對於未履行清理義務的義務人須預估待履行費用並依行政執行法發出繳納命令的總案件數是133依據廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關待會清除或處理廢棄物並向清理義務人求償費用的案件總共53件133然後這個有去\n\n17:21.694 --> 17:46.866\n提出球場費用的只有53那133只有53去提出要球場只有三件去申請假扣押請問部長你們有沒有研究一下主管機關為什麼沒有積極的申請假扣押的原因是什麼為什麼讓違規者有機會轉移資產為什麼老是幫政府要幫這一種犯罪的人在那裡擦屁股呢\n\n17:48.087 --> 17:53.291\n或是為盡善良管理人責任的人在那裡插屁股呢在環境保護跟公帑帶清除之間要怎麼取得平衡啊擋不擋的抗人民支開這個緊急忽然之餘,我們今天先去清澳有些地方沒有錢啊,中間有沒有變價錢,有沒有變得高沒有啦,中間有沒有變價錢啦\n\n18:13.168 --> 18:37.098\n那如果危害健康和環境之餘的怎麼辦?危害健康和環境之餘的,就跟他斷了啊,繼續斷了啊所以面臨一個這麼嚴重的問題,違規棄置非棄物的人查到的時候,就像剛才蘇丁說的,炸就脫蒜了,還要再把我凍著可以追回不法所得,不法利得,騙笑欸,政府根本追不回來啊\n\n18:38.297 --> 19:01.188\n而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合等到法律程序跑完違規者早就資產轉移不要講等到法律程序啦你們自己內部還在這樣子跟立委講話政府乾瞪眼立委在那裡說到有錢沒拿也是沒好最後都是全民買單或是全民給放在那因為地方政府不編列這個預算擺爛因為球場也球場不回來\n\n19:06.258 --> 19:18.317\n所以政府的預算這麼有限面對這些非法棄置的問題所以如果沒有立即危害或是到健康或是公共這個環境甚至有立即危害你也是不會做啦這樣狀況\n\n19:23.838 --> 19:30.722\n所以你們提供的資料到今年2月20日為止非法棄置的列管案件1130件解除列管的690件持續列管的440件\n\n19:39.534 --> 19:44.075\n這個氣質的長殖類型多樣廢棄物的種類數量長殖位置清理成本不一連平均清理成本都算不出來這樣子下去喔大家有用看用歐北豆沒要緊釀沒中釀中也太善沒要緊它會變成破窗效應\n\n20:03.419 --> 20:17.719\n大家別的違規則看到政府不處理可以更肆無忌憚制度面有破洞抓不到靠不到問題越來越嚴重好我知道你一直看我啦我把時間最後講一下啦\n\n20:19.710 --> 20:41.593\n我們幫這些違規的人插屁股是在圖利私人可是不處理的話也不行那監察院有對你們做幾個建議啊監察院調查報告有建議說刻以行則啊沒有這個依法提供或是沒有提交處理計畫書或清理廢棄物直接刻以行則啊\n\n20:42.774 --> 21:09.254\n第二個假扣押制度的改革明確的降低假扣押的舉證標準或規定特定情況下可推定有假扣押原因存在以增加環保機關保全球場權利的可能性那你們提出的版本是不是就足以構成這樣的一個條件到時候我們可以來看看但是還有一個比照土屋法修法所講土屋法當初就在講了你不要讓我抓到\n\n21:11.956 --> 21:33.776\n抓到的時候污染者如果是公司不是公司解散了就好了公司的負責人主要股東或者是連間接控制公司的投資人都要負擔清理費用永遠跑不掉負最終的清理責任公司倒了\n\n21:34.497 --> 21:44.077\n污染責任還是存在普法就說即使企業因為合併分割或其他方式消失負責任股東仍然要付清理費\n\n21:46.019 --> 21:59.330\n違規不繳清理費還可以加收滯納金和罰款讀法第43條強制規定汙染者不繳清理費除了收0.5%每天喔0.5%的滯納金超過30天還要罰款20到100萬來交換下去所以林費清罰跟剛才說的一個假扣押\n\n22:12.219 --> 22:15.440\n畢竟我剛才說這有道理嗎比照圖無法公司改善主要的投資者負責人大股東都負連帶永遠的最終的清理責任跑不掉沒得六次納金阿哥吃苦鴨阿哥罰款連續罰一直罰罰到1%這樣可以嗎\n\n22:40.984 --> 22:54.562\n委員你的建議非常好啦你們的版本都沒有這監察院調查報告也建議我會把委員的建議把它放在我們預告的法規裡面好那就要修正一下喔好謝謝委員好謝謝林淑芬委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.264,"end":14.376,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長 有請彭部長李委員好"},{"start":15.452,"end":17.813,"text":"肥清法第71條 甲扣鴨的制度在食物上大概是形同虛設"},{"start":35.502,"end":62.758,"text":"就是說廢清法第71條規定主管機關依廢清法第71條第一項規定待為清除廢棄物後向醫務人求償必要費用時若醫務人不願意繳納環保機關應有權向法院申請假扣押但是在實務上你去行政法院對假扣押的審查極為嚴格然後我們很多都被駁回"},{"start":63.598,"end":82.249,"text":"那更多的是我們連申請都不願意申請那我現在是要以高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號裁定為例為什麼要談這個是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例法院的單一個案的判決成為判例"},{"start":86.872,"end":115.427,"text":"那這個影響就很大那高雄高等行政法院112年度的這個裁定是這樣子環保局預估代為清理的費用是92746243元所以依法申請假扣押那申請人雖然是在高雄高等行政法院但申請人是台南市政府環保局申請的理由包括相對人借其了"},{"start":116.147,"end":127.896,"text":"人為繳納預估帶旅行清理非法棄置的廢棄物的費用他沒有自己去繳錢那也沒有提出清理廢棄物的意願 嫌有隱匿或遺傳財產的可能這是地方政府申請的 寫的原因"},{"start":135.502,"end":158.111,"text":"結果被法院認為市民不足而駁回解釋的是明白的明 市民不足而駁回法院是這樣看的 第一點關於廢清法第七十一條第一項環保機關必須實際執行待清理才能依照廢清法向相對人請求清理費用"},{"start":158.971,"end":180.579,"text":"那由於申請人沒有提供足夠的證據去證明已經開始執行清理因此法院難以認定他們有已成立的公法上的金錢債權也就是說申請人沒有取得合法的清償權利所以沒有辦法依據此去申請假扣押"},{"start":182.301,"end":204.841,"text":"第二個 關於行政執行法第29條第二項即便相對人沒有在期限內履行清理義務法院認為 這個可能比較大的問題在這裡申請人所提供的證據只能證明請求清理費的原因但不足以證明相對人有資產轉移或無法執行的風險"},{"start":207.12,"end":213.942,"text":"你可能看到他沒有交錢但你沒有要證明你現在就是可以吃苦鴨因為你沒有要證明這個人他要把他的財產轉移換言之法院不認為單純未繳納代旅行費用就足以證明相對人將來無法強制執行所以因此駁回吃苦鴨申請全台灣社會大家都知道"},{"start":230.607,"end":232.45,"text":"高等行政法院 高雄行政法院認為"},{"start":247.849,"end":270.67,"text":"撥回扣押的申請所以我們現在我這個事情我們也跟你問過了環境部叫你們提供過去五年依廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關申請假扣押的案件你們說啊你們說這個一共主管機關申請假扣押有三件法院主席兩件撥回一件"},{"start":272.151,"end":277.194,"text":"那該駁回案的金額是5億4千多萬駁回的理由是因為申請人對相對人的金錢給付債權或請求權尚未發生意思就是說你剛才不開錢 你剛才不去請你現在就要去請了 開錢 開了啊這可以吃虧啊你如果等你開錢了 請了啊你剛開始請的時候他就脫線了啦 脫線了啊事務面我們都知道 但是這樣"},{"start":302.288,"end":328.681,"text":"換你這樣認定 我最怕是成為判例法院都這樣講 因為現有的法律現有的法律工具看起來也的確長得很像藉其不為清除處理時 地方政府主管機關或執行機構得待為清除處理並向其上面的這些有責任的人求償清理改善及衍生之必要費用"},{"start":329.261,"end":340.43,"text":"藉其如果沒有清償者 移送強制執行所以法律工具的確就是你要清料啊 才可以去吃褲子不用說大家也遭料料保證你對這個實務面 土法不足以執行如果法律工具也有問題"},{"start":348.115,"end":375.366,"text":"執行面也有問題為什麼這麼久都沒有處理過好 包委員您提到的都是重點就是我們跟那個檢警調還有一個平台其實討論的就是委員您說到的問題就是裡面的核心那目前呢我們希望修法的就是71條裡面希望說還是一樣我有看到對 我們希望這個部分能夠再加強我現在先講一下您的行政處我說喔 您到底過去五年啊等於政府去申請恰恰 您說三件嘛"},{"start":376.346,"end":404.646,"text":"其實這三件裡面我剛剛講的那一件112年的這一個文號判例裁定其實你們也不放在裡面都沒有放在裡面所以柏定你們這個假扣押的案件跟數據你提供個立委的到底是怎麼算的為什麼才這個寥寥可數啊個案沒幾件然後就可以這樣子我如果看到那一件你如果不說那一件你如果不說提供的資料都不全"},{"start":406.67,"end":434.953,"text":"委員我請署長來回覆署長認識他三十年了我們所提供的那個資料是指找不到行為人的那個部分然後再去就是找不到行為人71條第一項沒有在管有沒有找得到行為人有行為人更好抓到了更好沒有的話也有善良管理人責任的第九大家都知道"},{"start":436.834,"end":449.04,"text":"我告訴你 我要跟你討好資料說你有去申請假扣押制五年到底有幾件你有立委的資料 說三件 立委自己去找來就一件 你就沒有列入在內啊你們提供立委的基本資料就提供不全欸我怎麼想說你們可能整個部都沒有人在管這些事情吧你現在就跟我說未來修法會處理 未來修法就可以解決了嗎"},{"start":466.058,"end":485.184,"text":"未來修法你們未來的修法你們要預告假扣押制度但是法院你們沒有明確的去降低市民的標準法院要求需市民義務人有日後不能或難以強制執行之餘這要怎麼舉證"},{"start":488.244,"end":496.998,"text":"現在範圍的判例是說他沒有跟你交集也沒有跟你提清理計劃你要怎麼證明這樣他就會脫產"},{"start":500.543,"end":517.348,"text":"你的草案未來草案是說修正申請假扣押的時間點但沒有在法條文字中直接降低或修改市民有日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘這一個要件的證明標準"},{"start":518.803,"end":537.845,"text":"那法院是否會認為,在未來他是不是會認為,你來想說,好,我換你去改改,我可以先扣押,把扣押的順序不要從這個清理完畢,把它提早到只要一發現行政送達,你都沒回覆,我就馬上給你加扣押。"},{"start":539.246,"end":563.407,"text":"你們是這樣修嘛但是這個未來法院是不是會認為說行政處分以送達他這個本身就足夠構成夾扣押的急迫性和必要性嗎這個在司法實務的見解上可能還會有問題喔而且你們是得或是應還是這個那如果法院能夠維持目前這種"},{"start":564.748,"end":589.234,"text":"比較嚴格的市民標準假扣押的執行都不會產生問題嗎你不知道報委員這個我們把你的意見因為我們現在希望說趕快匯集完了之後可以有一個預告那我們會把委員的意見看能不能趕得及把這次就把它進行修正不是因為我跟我們我再講一下根據環境"},{"start":590.274,"end":596.101,"text":"鋪自己的統計過去五年依照行政執行法第29條除了機關隊為旅行這個清理義務的義務人預估去帶旅行費用並發出繳納命令的案件一共有133件總費用金額高達79億9986萬將近80億"},{"start":610.526,"end":613.348,"text":"那為什麼會啟動第七十一條第一項因為這個欧美丹 四月份去欧美丹顯然有足生於環境和健康風險你們才啟動的這一條七十一條第一項嘛阿不然全台灣欧美丹的地方全都霸凌啦"},{"start":628.857,"end":648.195,"text":"整個10萬個地方啦那為什麼要鎖定第71條第一項來討論因為第71條第一項啟動的條款顯然就是危害健康 危害污染土地 污染地下水土壤等等非常嚴重的 你才需要介入在這種狀況裡面你們評估啊在過去5年大家有40年要開啦但是"},{"start":653.993,"end":667.637,"text":"真的有來納一年薪 兩千控備者六萬四千兩百二十二元 2086-4222我的意思是說有八十億的帶旅行費用 只有0.26%的人有繳錢有99.74%是"},{"start":674.059,"end":675.52,"text":"想要讓政府買單那據此的話這個狀況的話這個71條第一項我要講現行的現有的法律是這個追償的系統是不好的法律工具有問題失效的不能執行的"},{"start":692.23,"end":704.024,"text":"在條法律 有立跟不立一樣有這條法律跟不這條法律一樣這個顯然有兩個問題嘛第一個 法律工具本身有問題第二個 執行面有問題"},{"start":705.615,"end":722.987,"text":"那顯然這兩個問題都存在顯然這兩個問題都存在而且這麼多年來你現在要修廢清法才說要處理可是在之前就法律工具真的完全這麼不足嗎我們都不要主動去找司法院處理過嗎"},{"start":724.788,"end":744.37,"text":"那我現在一直要講判例的原因是因為高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號的裁定法院認為環保機關必須實際代為清除後使得依廢清法第71條第一項向鄉對人求償必要的費用而且他有示明喔"},{"start":745.765,"end":759.78,"text":"他要求要4名義務人員日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘那這種舉證標準幾乎都讓環保機關無法實際運用假扣押制度"},{"start":761.321,"end":776.047,"text":"那從實際狀況的執行面來看醫護人根本只要擺爛不繳納反正就交給政府來收拾那從另外一個角度來看行政執行法的代旅行程序或是廢清法第71條第一項的求償這個如果"},{"start":782.599,"end":801.195,"text":"有效的話 如果有效的話 那麼廢清法根本不用設置假扣押的這個機制 所以其實是無效的就是說現有的法律工具71條的這個可以假扣押 或者是行政執行法的代理型程序通通法律工具都無效"},{"start":802.984,"end":805.146,"text":"那我要再講一個實務面 這個部長最近不法集團在那個碼頭山 高雄的碼頭山自然生態保育區棄置失業費期務一案那檢察官初步的估計"},{"start":820.058,"end":827.28,"text":"遷運這個廢棄物的費用大概要超過一億肇事的七名逃犯喔遷運的費用幾億但是抓到了抓到了肇事 這個非法肇事的這些涉嫌人喔幾萬九百 你知道嗎八萬 七萬 五萬"},{"start":839.116,"end":855.892,"text":"交保的金額跟清理費用相比為不足道然後這些背後 只是還有後面的指示集團所以他們很容易脫產 大家都知道沒有辦法假扣押 然後沒有辦法追回這個清理的費用"},{"start":857.02,"end":883.308,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 環境部在你說要修法之前修法的法律工具 我其實覺得這樣夠嗎 我是有一個問號但是在這個之前 比如說碼頭山這個案子 你有沒有具體的對策因為碼頭山那個是屬於 要不要回答一下屬於什麼 這個都地方政府要去執行的 跟我們中央都無關"},{"start":884.764,"end":912.962,"text":"署長很簡單,一定這樣說就好了那都地方政府要去做,跟我無關的報告委員,那個碼頭山那個齁,應該是犯罪所得是可以扣押得到的,我們從那裡去做處理啦你說什麼所?犯罪所得犯罪所得?對,就是他的不法立得那個部分不法立得,因為貴賓公司很大件的嗎?這個還要再去清查一下你若不吃扣押,脫產了啦"},{"start":914.093,"end":918.14,"text":"破產了啦 公司改善了啦 再重新立一間新公司就好了啦"},{"start":919.69,"end":944.14,"text":"你們在這裡跟立委講的 你有沒有想過 你說這麼幼稚的回答沒聽到這個回答 這麼幼稚你現在的動作 你不是幼稚園的學生喔你當成民主會是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當成外環委員會的委員是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當立法院的立委 中華民國立法院的立委都是笨蛋還是白癡嗎"},{"start":946.141,"end":969.797,"text":"你跟我說這是生肖欸保證你覺得這個會打生肖欸我就是希望說這個可以如何才可以更好啦那委員的提的建議你都這樣說你都說虛的沒有啦沒有啦這個現在其實希望修正的希望委員的意見我們可以再進來我就跟你講啦這個是立法這個是環境部最核心的業務不是去談"},{"start":972.419,"end":997.436,"text":"節能減碳 碳費 碳稅不是剛剛講的那個綠能不是為什麼會有這種非法氣質最源頭就是你們管理的不好你們信業廢棄物的管理就是很爛才會有廢物這個廢棄物毀壞的才會有污染土地 污染地下水上游的管理就出問題了才會有這種小小四處在外面亂丟 亂氣質"},{"start":1000.822,"end":1002.685,"text":"所以你的善有全部都沒有管好耶你的輸定就在那裡,是非管理都出很多問題"},{"start":1010.871,"end":1030.966,"text":"然後在問你問到這個東西你又在這裡虛以為疑過去五年 主管機關對於未履行清理義務的義務人須預估待履行費用並依行政執行法發出繳納命令的總案件數是133依據廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關待會清除或處理廢棄物並向清理義務人求償費用的案件總共53件133然後這個有去"},{"start":1041.694,"end":1066.866,"text":"提出球場費用的只有53那133只有53去提出要球場只有三件去申請假扣押請問部長你們有沒有研究一下主管機關為什麼沒有積極的申請假扣押的原因是什麼為什麼讓違規者有機會轉移資產為什麼老是幫政府要幫這一種犯罪的人在那裡擦屁股呢"},{"start":1068.087,"end":1073.291,"text":"或是為盡善良管理人責任的人在那裡插屁股呢在環境保護跟公帑帶清除之間要怎麼取得平衡啊擋不擋的抗人民支開這個緊急忽然之餘,我們今天先去清澳有些地方沒有錢啊,中間有沒有變價錢,有沒有變得高沒有啦,中間有沒有變價錢啦"},{"start":1093.168,"end":1117.098,"text":"那如果危害健康和環境之餘的怎麼辦?危害健康和環境之餘的,就跟他斷了啊,繼續斷了啊所以面臨一個這麼嚴重的問題,違規棄置非棄物的人查到的時候,就像剛才蘇丁說的,炸就脫蒜了,還要再把我凍著可以追回不法所得,不法利得,騙笑欸,政府根本追不回來啊"},{"start":1118.297,"end":1141.188,"text":"而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合等到法律程序跑完違規者早就資產轉移不要講等到法律程序啦你們自己內部還在這樣子跟立委講話政府乾瞪眼 立委在那裡說到有錢沒拿 也是沒好最後都是全民買單 或是全民給放在那因為地方政府不編列這個預算 擺爛因為球場也球場不回來"},{"start":1146.258,"end":1158.317,"text":"所以政府的預算這麼有限面對這些非法棄置的問題所以如果沒有立即危害或是到健康或是公共這個環境甚至有立即危害你也是不會做啦這樣狀況"},{"start":1163.838,"end":1170.722,"text":"所以你們提供的資料 到今年2月20日為止 非法棄置的列管案件1130件解除列管的690件 持續列管的440件"},{"start":1179.534,"end":1184.075,"text":"這個氣質的長殖類型多樣 廢棄物的種類數量長殖位置 清理成本不一 連平均清理成本都算不出來這樣子下去喔 大家有用看用歐北豆 沒要緊 釀沒中 釀中也太善 沒要緊它會變成破窗效應"},{"start":1203.419,"end":1217.719,"text":"大家別的違規則看到政府不處理可以更肆無忌憚制度面有破洞 抓不到 靠不到問題越來越嚴重好 我知道你一直看我啦 我把時間最後講一下啦"},{"start":1219.71,"end":1241.593,"text":"我們幫這些違規的人插屁股 是在圖利私人 可是不處理的話也不行那監察院有對你們做幾個建議啊監察院調查報告有建議說 刻以行則啊沒有這個依法提供 或是沒有提交處理計畫書或清理廢棄物 直接刻以行則啊"},{"start":1242.774,"end":1269.254,"text":"第二個假扣押制度的改革明確的降低假扣押的舉證標準或規定特定情況下可推定有假扣押原因存在以增加環保機關保全球場權利的可能性那你們提出的版本是不是就足以構成這樣的一個條件到時候我們可以來看看但是還有一個比照土屋法修法所講土屋法當初就在講了你不要讓我抓到"},{"start":1271.956,"end":1293.776,"text":"抓到的時候 污染者如果是公司 不是公司解散了就好了公司的負責人主要股東或者是連間接控制公司的投資人都要負擔清理費用永遠跑不掉負最終的清理責任公司倒了"},{"start":1294.497,"end":1304.077,"text":"污染責任還是存在普法就說即使企業因為合併分割或其他方式消失負責任股東仍然要付清理費"},{"start":1306.019,"end":1319.33,"text":"違規不繳清理費 還可以加收滯納金和罰款讀法第43條 強制規定汙染者不繳清理費 除了收0.5%每天喔0.5%的滯納金 超過30天還要罰款20到100萬來 交換下去所以林費清罰 跟剛才說的一個假扣押"},{"start":1332.219,"end":1335.44,"text":"畢竟我剛才說這有道理嗎 比照圖無法公司改善主要的投資者負責人大股東都負連帶永遠的最終的清理責任 跑不掉沒得六次納金阿哥吃苦鴨 阿哥罰款連續罰 一直罰罰到1%這樣可以嗎"},{"start":1360.984,"end":1374.562,"text":"委員你的建議非常好啦你們的版本都沒有這監察院調查報告也建議我會把委員的建議把它放在我們預告的法規裡面好 那就要修正一下喔好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":999,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時7分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，上次那個DAHS事件，你剛才也稍微提了一下，改天我們再來討論好了。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員淑芬：我們今天要討論廢清法，廢清法第七十一條假扣押制度在實務上大概是形同虛設，廢清法第七十一條規定，主管機關依廢清法第七十一條第一項規定代為清除廢棄物，向義務人求償必要費用時，若義務人不願意繳納，環保機關應有權向法院聲請假扣押。但是在實務上，行政法院對假扣押的審查極為嚴格，所以我們很多都被駁回，更多的是我們連聲請都不願意聲請，直接就沒有做。我現在以高雄高等行政法院112年度全字第21號裁定為例，為什麼要談這個？是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例，法院的單一個案判決成為判例，這個影響就很大。高雄高等行政法院112年度的裁定是環保局預估代為清理的費用是9,274萬6,243元，依法聲請假扣押，雖然是在高雄高等行政法院，但聲請人是臺南市政府環保局，聲請理由包括相對人屆期仍未繳納預估代履行清理非法棄置廢棄物費用，他沒有去繳錢，也沒有提出清理廢棄物的意願，顯有隱匿或移轉財產的可能，這是地方政府聲請的原因，結果被法院認為釋明不足而駁回。","法院是這樣看的，第一點，關於廢清法第七十一條第一項，環保機關必須實際執行代清理，才能夠依照廢清法向相對人請求清理費用。由於聲請人沒有提供足夠的證據去證明已經開始執行清理，因此，法院難以認定他們有已成立的公法上的金錢債權，也就是聲請人沒有取得合法的清償權利，所以沒有辦法據此聲請假扣押。","第二個，關於行政執行法第二十九條第二項，即便相對人沒有在期限內履行清理義務，可能比較大的問題在這裡，法院認為聲請人所提供的證據只能證明請求清理費的原因，但不足以證明相對人有資產轉移或無法執行的風險。你只看到他沒來繳錢，但你無法證明這個人要把他的財產轉移，所以現在無法假扣押；換言之，法院不認為單純未繳納代履行費用，就足以證明相對人將來無法強制執行，因此駁回假扣押聲請。","全臺灣社會大家都知道，你叫他來繳錢、叫他來清理，他都不來清；他不要清，你還叫他來繳錢？那我們幫他清理，把錢扣留下來！大家也知道他就是不想做，但是法院說你怎麼知道他不做？你怎麼證明他不做？高雄高等行政法院認為……駁回假扣押的聲請。","這件事情我們也跟你問過了，叫你們環境部提供過去五年依廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關聲請假扣押的案件。你們說主管機關聲請假扣押有3件，法院准許2件、駁回1件，該駁回案的金額是五億四千多萬，駁回的理由是因為聲請人對相對人的金錢給付債權或請求權尚未發生。意思就是他都還沒花錢、還沒去清，政府就要等他去清完、錢花完了，才能對人家假扣押。如果等他花錢、清完後，等到他們開始清理的時候，他們就脫產了。","我們都知道實務面是這樣，但法院卻是這樣認定，我們才會說最怕是成為判例，法院都這樣講，因為現有的法律工具看起來也的確長得很像屆期不為清除處理時，地方政府、主管機關或執行機構得代為清除、處理，並向上面的這些有責任的人求償清理、改善及衍生之必要費用。屆期如果沒有清償者，移送強制執行。所以法律工具的確就是要清完後，才能對人家假扣押，不用說大家也跑光光。部長，你對這個實務面怎麼看？徒法不足以自行，如果法律工具也有問題、執行面也有問題，為什麼這麼久都沒有處理過？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，您提到的都是重點，我們跟檢警調環有一個平臺，討論的就是委員說到的問題及裡面的核心，目前我們希望修法的就是第七十一條，希望還是一樣……"],["林委員淑芬：我有看到。"],["彭部長啓明：對！我們希望這個部分能夠再加強。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在先談你們的行政處分，過去五年，地方政府去聲請假扣押，你們說3件嘛！這3件裡面，我剛剛講的那1件，112年的這一個文號判例裁定，其實你們也不放在裡面、都沒有放在裡面，所以部長，你們提供給立委的假扣押案件跟數據到底是怎麼算的，為什麼才寥寥可數沒幾件個案？如果我們看到那邊有一件，你們卻沒說那邊有一件，提供的資料都不全。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我請署長來回復這部分。"],["顏署長旭明：是，委員您好。"],["林委員淑芬：署長？我認識他30年了。"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，我們所提供的資料是指找不到行為人的那個部分，然後再去……就是找不到行為人……"],["林委員淑芬：第七十一條第一項沒有在管有沒有找得到行為人啊！有行為人更好、抓到了更好，沒有的話，也有善良管理人責任的地主，大家都知道。"],["顏署長旭明：是。"],["林委員淑芬：我是跟你們說，我向你們討資料，問你們這五年到底有幾件去聲請假扣押？你們提供給立委的資料是3件，立委自己去找來的，就有1件你們沒有列入在內，你們連提供立委的基本資料都提供不全欸！我想說你們可能整個部都沒人在管這些事情吧！你現在跟我說未來修法會處理，未來修法就可以解決了嗎？未來的修法你們要預告假扣押制度，你們沒有明確降低釋明的標準，法院要求需釋明義務人有日後不能或難以強制執行之虞，這要怎麼舉證？現在法院的判例是他沒來繳錢，也沒跟你提清理計畫，你要怎麼證明他會脫產？未來的草案是修正聲請假扣押的時間點，但沒有在法條文字中直接降低或修改釋明日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之虞，這一個要件的證明標準。","如果你想修改法律，可以先行扣押，扣押的順序不要在清理完畢後，把它提早到只要一發現行政送達都沒回復就馬上假扣押，你們是這樣修嘛！但是未來法院是不是會認為行政處分已送達，本身就足夠構成假扣押的急迫性和必要性？這個在司法實務的見解上，可能還會有問題喔！而且你們是「得」或是「應」，還是這個？如果法院仍然維持目前這種比較嚴格的釋明標準，假扣押的執行都不會產生問題嗎？你不知道？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。報告委員，我們把你的意見……因為我們現在希望趕快匯集完了之後，可以有一個預告，委員的意見我們看能不能趕得及這次就進行修正。"],["林委員淑芬：不是。我再講一下，根據環境部自己的統計，過去五年依照行政執行法第二十九條，主管機關對未履行清理義務的義務人預估代履行費用並發出繳納命令的案件，一共有133件，總費用金額高達79億9,986萬，將近80億啦！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼會啟動第七十一條第一項，因為隨便亂丟事業廢棄物，顯然有傷於環境和健康風險，你們才會啟動第七十一條第一項嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是、是！"],["林委員淑芬：不然全臺灣亂丟的地方有好幾十萬個地方啦！為什麼要鎖定第七十一條第一項來討論？因為第七十一條第一項啟動的條款，顯然就是危害健康、危害污染土地、污染地下水、土壤等等非常嚴重的，你才需要介入。在這種狀況裡面，在過去五年，你們評估大概要花80億啦！但是真的有來繳錢的是2,086萬4,222元。我的意思是有80億的代履行費用，只有0.26%的人有繳錢，有99.74%想要讓政府買單。據此，像這樣的狀況，我要講現有的法律第七十一條第一項追償系統是沒效的，法律工具有問題，是失效的、不能執行的，這條法律有立跟沒立一樣，有這條法律跟沒這條法律一樣。顯然這有兩個問題，第一個，法律工具本身有問題；第二個，執行面有問題；顯然這兩個問題都存在，而且這麼多年來，你現在要修廢清法才說要處理，可是在之前法律工具真的完全這麼不足嗎？你們都沒有主動去找司法院處理過嗎？","我現在一直要講判例的原因是因為，高雄高等行政法院112年度全字第21號的裁定，法院認為環保機關必須實際代為清除後，始得依廢清法第七十一條第一項，向相對人求償必要的費用，而且要求釋明義務人有日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之虞，這種舉證標準幾乎都讓環保機關無法實際運用假扣押制度。從實際狀況的執行面來看，義務人根本只要擺爛、不繳納，反正就交給政府來收拾。從另外一個角度來看，行政執行法的代履行程序，或是廢清法第七十一條第一項的求償，如果有效的話，那麼廢清法根本不用設置假扣押的機制，所以其實是無效的。就是說現有的法律工具，第七十一條的假扣押，或者是行政執行法的代履行程序，法律工具統統都無效。","我要再講一個實務面，部長，最近不法集團在高雄的馬頭山自然生態保育區棄置事業廢棄物一案，檢察官初步的估計，清運廢棄物的費用大概要超過1億，肇事的7名逃犯，清運的費用1億，但是抓到非法肇事的這些涉嫌人，幾萬交保你知道嗎？8萬、7萬、5萬，交保的金額跟清理費用相比微不足道，然後還有後面的指示集團，所以他們很容易脫產，大家都知道，沒有辦法假扣押，然後沒有辦法追回清理的費用。在這種狀況裡面，環境部在你說要修法之前，修法的法律工具，你覺得這樣夠嗎？我其實是有一個問號啊！但是在這個之前，比如說馬頭山這個案子，你有沒有具體的對策？"],["彭部長啓明：因為馬頭山是屬於……"],["林委員淑芬：屬於什麼？這個都地方政府要去執行的，跟我們中央都無關，署長很簡單，一定這樣說就好了，那都是地方政府要去做的，跟我沒關係。"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，馬頭山那個應該是犯罪所得，是可以扣押得到的，我們從那裡去處理啦！"],["林委員淑芬：你說什麼所？"],["彭部長啓明：犯罪所得。"],["林委員淑芬：犯罪所得？"],["顏署長旭明：對，就是它的不法利得那個部分。"],["林委員淑芬：不法利得，他們幾間公司？很大間嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：這個還要再去清查一下。"],["林委員淑芬：你們如果沒有假扣押，脫產了啦！公司解散了啦！再重新成立一間新公司就好了啦！你們在這裡跟立委講的，你有想過你說這麼幼稚的回答。部長，他這個回答這麼幼稚，你現在當作立委是幼稚園的學生喔？你當林淑芬是笨蛋還是白癡嗎？你當衛環委員會的委員是笨蛋還是白癡嗎？你當中華民國立法院的立委都笨蛋和白癡嗎？你跟我說這個「裝肖仔」，部長，你不覺得這個回答在「裝肖仔」嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我就是希望如何才可以更好啦，委員提的建議……"],["林委員淑芬：你都這樣說，你都說虛的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有啦，現在其實希望修正的、希望委員的意見，我們可以納進來。"],["林委員淑芬：我就跟你講了，這個是環境部最核心的業務。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["林委員淑芬：不是去談節能減碳、碳費、碳稅，不是只講綠能，不是。為什麼會有非法棄置？最源頭就是你們管理的不好，你們事業廢棄物的管理就是很爛，才會有廢棄物亂倒，才會污染土地、污染地下水。上游的管理就出問題了，才會有這種宵小四處在外面亂丟、亂棄置。你們的上游全部都沒有管好，你們署長的事廢管理出很多問題，然後問你問到這個東西，你還在這裡虛以委蛇。","過去5年，主管機關對於未履行清理義務的義務人，需預估代履行費用，並依行政執行法發出繳納命令的總案件數是133，依據廢清法第七十一條第一項，主管機關代為清除處理廢棄物，並向清理義務人求償費用的案件總共53件，133，然後有去提出求償費用的只有53，133只有53去提出要求償，只有3件去聲請假扣押，請問部長，你們有沒有研究一下，主管機關沒有積極聲請假扣押的原因是什麼？為什麼讓違規者有機會轉移資產？為什麼政府老是要幫這種犯罪的人在那裡擦屁股呢？或是幫未盡善良管理人責任的人在那裡擦屁股呢？在環境保護跟公帑代清除之間要怎麼取得平衡啊？動不動就慷人民之慨，緊急污染之虞，我們趕快先去清，有一些沒錢了，地方政府有編這些預算嗎？有編夠嗎？沒有啦！地方政府沒有編這個預算啦。如果有危害健康和環境之虞的怎麼辦？危害健康和環境之虞的，就放著啊、繼續放著啊！所以面臨一個這麼嚴重的問題，違規棄置廢棄物等查到的時候，你們剛剛署長說的，早就脫產了，還以為可以追回不法利得，「裝肖仔」！政府根本追不回來，而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合，等到法律程序跑完，違規者早就轉移資產。不要講等到法律程序啦，你們自己內部現在還在這樣子跟立委講話，政府乾瞪眼，立委在那裡「有喙講甲無瀾」也是沒用，最後都是全民買單，或是全民把它放到爛，因為地方政府不編列這個預算，擺爛，求償也求償不回來。政府的預算這麼有限，面對這些非法棄置的問題，你如果沒有立即危害到健康或是公共環境，甚至有立即危害，你們也是不會做啦，這樣的狀況沒求償，就把它放著。所以你們提供的資料，到今年2月20號為止，非法棄置的列管案件1,130件，解除列管的690件，持續列管的440件，棄置的場址類型多樣，廢棄物的種類、數量、場址、位置、清理成本不一，連平均清理成本都算不出來，這樣子下去，大家有樣學樣，隨便倒沒關係，抓不到，抓到也是脫產，沒關係，會有破窗效應，別的違規者看到政府不處理，可以更肆無忌憚，制度面有破洞，抓不到、扣不到，問題越來越嚴重。","好，我知道你一直看我啦，我最後講一下啦，我們幫這些違規的人擦屁股是在圖利私人，可是不處理的話也不行，監察院有給你們幾個建議。監察院調查報告有建議課以刑責，沒有依法提供或是沒有提交處理計畫書或清理廢棄物，直接課以刑責啊！第二個，假扣押制度的改革，明確降低假扣押的舉證標準，或規定特定情況下可推定有假扣押原因存在，以增加環保機關保全求償權利的可能性。你們提出的版本是不是就足以構成這樣的一個條件？到時候我們可以來看看。但是還有一個比照土污法修法所講，土污法當初就在講了喔，你就不要被我抓到，抓到的時候，污染者如果是公司，不是公司解散了就好了，公司的負責人、主要股東，或者是間接控制公司的投資人都要負擔清理費用，永遠跑不掉，負最終的清理責任，公司倒了，污染責任還是存在。土污法就說，即使企業因為合併、分割或其他方式消失，負責人、股東人員仍然要付清理費，違規不繳清理費還可以加收滯納金和罰款；土污法第四十四、四十三條強制規定，污染者不繳清理費，除了收0.5%每天喔！0.5%的滯納金，超過30天還要罰款20到100萬，來，把它罰下去，所以你們廢清法只會在那邊說假扣押，部長，我剛才說的這個有道理嗎？比照土污法，公司解散，主要的投資者、負責人、大股東都負連帶、永遠的、最終的清理責任，跑不掉，不繳滯納金，還有假扣押，還有罰款，連續罰、一直罰，罰到他破產，這樣可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員的建議非常好，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：你們的版本都沒有，監察院調查報告也建議。"],["彭部長啓明：好，我會把委員的建議放在我們預告的法規裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那就要修正一下喔！"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","接下來請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-8","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","牛煦庭","林淑芬","葉元之","王正旭","劉書彬","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃秀芳","楊曜","陳瑩","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-04-28"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00003"}}}