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\"end\": 973.169, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"詳\"}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 973.169, \"end\": 973.469, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 973.469, \"end\": 973.689, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 973.689, \"end\": 973.789, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 973.789, \"end\": 974.21, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 974.21, \"end\": 974.55, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 974.55, \"end\": 974.73, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 974.73, \"end\": 974.95, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 974.95, \"end\": 975.07, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 975.07, \"end\": 975.21, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 975.21, \"end\": 975.631, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 975.631, \"end\": 975.851, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"求\", 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{\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 980.575, \"end\": 980.696, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 980.696, \"end\": 981.336, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 981.336, \"end\": 981.456, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 981.456, \"end\": 981.717, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 981.717, \"end\": 982.177, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 982.177, \"end\": 982.357, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 982.357, \"end\": 982.477, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 982.477, \"end\": 982.597, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 982.597, \"end\": 982.938, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 982.938, \"end\": 983.118, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 983.118, \"end\": 983.238, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 983.238, 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 984.559, \"end\": 984.719, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 984.719, \"end\": 984.739, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,591 --> 00:00:05,837\n法定人數不足\n\n2\n00:00:15,186 --> 00:00:34,602\n剛剛有委員槌尋說他能關電板一個叫做石油連線到時候怎麼處理另外一個是因為天災地變有損毀那我看你答覆那個委員我覺得你有點胸有不成竹然後你旁邊的幕僚還頻頻點頭因為那個槌尋的委員是要講說是叫清潔隊來處理是不是\n\n3\n00:00:40,399 --> 00:00:51,172\n他在旁邊一直點頭,是這樣嗎?你要不要答覆清楚一點?一個是使用連線到了,怎麼處理?另外一個是使用連線尚未到了,因為天災地變它損壞了,怎麼處理?\n\n4\n00:00:58,372 --> 00:01:17,852\n跟委員報告在使用年限道或者說天災地變就是因為天災的關係它有損壞都可以達到我們有一個碳能板的回收專線去集中來回收那另外一部分是說民眾可能有些小的它數量比較少那就可以跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收嘛對不對可以問清潔隊員\n\n5\n00:01:22,356 --> 00:01:50,884\n看那個回收的管道是怎麼樣是問清潔隊員回收管道還是請清潔隊員來回收剛剛你的答案是請清潔隊員來回收那你的幕僚跟你一樣都投一支點哪一個清潔隊有在回收這個小型家用的碳能關鍵板如果是比較小的或是說因為它數量它是有稍微大一點可能它的回收車沒辦法回收那就要去清潔什麼叫比較小什麼叫比較大怎麼去界定\n\n6\n00:01:52,376 --> 00:02:18,283\n哪一個清潔隊有在收你講的所謂的比較小的這兩個問題就好簡單就好好不好有些是那個它有些它是屋頂那個早期小型的它那個小型的那如果回收車它可以回收你講回收車指清潔隊的回收車嘛對不對哪一個清潔隊的哪一個鄉鎮的哪一區的清潔隊的回收車有在回收可以明確跟我講嗎有嗎\n\n7\n00:02:23,837 --> 00:02:41,577\n你要不要再確定一下是是那我們是有跟我們的地方簽沒有啦如果有你就先跟我講嘛台北市哪一區還是運線哪一個鄉鎮的清潔隊有在收這個小型的因為天災地變損害的太陽能光電板\n\n8\n00:02:43,906 --> 00:02:53,711\n跟委員報告我講的是說家戶的事可以一樣家戶啊我這跟你講也是家戶啊就小型家用不是家戶嗎對不對誰在收嘛哪一個清潔隊在收嘛跟委員報告我們也是有曾經有這個民眾打來那我們會跟清潔隊那邊來聯絡對你好那你就直接講各位講你們處理的實力給我聽嘛給委員會聽嘛你打給哪一個清潔隊嘛\n\n9\n00:03:15,558 --> 00:03:30,140\n因為你每天要清災應領的嘛,你自己塞在清廠,你自己不知道,你說清潔堆有你修,我只能問,對,清潔堆有你修,你又說人家卡電來,你又還沒修,所以環境部,所以環境部就聯絡那個地方的清潔堆,好,你就跟我說對一下小型家用的太陽光電,因為天災地變損害之後,然後不曉得要找誰收,然後導致你環境部來,那環境部,然後再找地方的清潔隊,去做回收,\n\n10\n00:03:47,483 --> 00:03:48,464\n天啊!天啊!誇張吧!你不會去?你這個事有什麼事?這是有些個案,我們過去是有...沒有沒有,你有些個案,你跟我講個案啊哪一個清潔隊啊?哪一個鄉鎮的啊?哪一個縣的啊?\n\n11\n00:04:13,485 --> 00:04:40,883\n所以我不是要跟台灣吐槽債啦我是要跟你提倡說你這樣回答是有出問題啦都不可能嘛你們有心智跟舊智嘛對不對那舊智我們就不談你的心智也不是這樣啊你的舊智也沒有這樣啊清潔隊就不肯去跟你搜小型家用的損害的開門光電板啊都不可能啊那你們自己的制度怎麼樣你能不能簡單說明一下我時間有限已經佔一半的時間了\n\n12\n00:04:42,762 --> 00:05:02,760\n我們的制度現在是由我們是請能源署就在它的短購費率裡面有增加我們太陽能板的費用所以現在是由能源署這邊來幫我們發通知單由一些設置業者來繳錢那目前收的錢的情況是108到12年應收的費用是10億\n\n13\n00:05:06,684 --> 00:05:29,764\n沒有,我沒有在問你多少錢嘛,署長不要這樣啦,好不好你們回收流程是不是這樣,你這個人,我個人沒聽你聽,沒聽你聽,這樣不對吧這樣處理事情怎麼會對,你對自己的業務沒清楚到這種程度大型營利回收時必須先登入PV、IS系統報備環境部會請臨近的業者處理之後向能源署申請相關費用,對不對\n\n14\n00:05:32,090 --> 00:05:51,947\n這個已經省略很多了啦其實一般業者都會直接跟這個反正就甲方乙方就會先簽訂合約啦萬一有這些狀況那他們就會通知相關的業者來做處理嘛這是大型的嘛應該是這樣嘛矯正反矯正嘛對不對你小心加油你人家可請清潔隊處理之清潔隊登陸PBIS系統轉交於相關業者處理之這個就有問題了啊\n\n15\n00:06:00,333 --> 00:06:11,036\n你交給哪一個清潔隊處理之?你為什麼這樣?結果你沒辦法清潔,就在處理這件事啊你現在還要回答,叫做個案?然後什麼叫個案?不是這樣啦,我覺得這樣會出很大的問題啦部長你請上來啦\n\n16\n00:06:21,168 --> 00:06:43,125\n組長這個要討論一下檢討一下啦明確啦好不好我只希望明確因為你剛剛因為我剛剛有慶祝在主席台的時候在聆聽你講的時候我就覺得很差異嘛因為我們都在基層我們在跑嘛像這種事情我們經常會遇到就我遇到的清潔隊沒有在搜嘛我剛剛還問了別縣市的清潔隊有沒有在搜沒有啊都沒在搜啊他們都沒在搜啊這本身夾著就跟他們簽了合約啊老孫啊就對了夾著就叫處理夾著去處理啊\n\n17\n00:06:47,788 --> 00:07:10,096\n他們關電業者就找處理的業者去做處理啦不管你大型小型嘛那怎麼在你們這個回收程序是完全不一樣所以你才會這麼打嘛那你這麼打就出問題啊就不是這樣啊好那我為什麼要提醒這個事情106年的時候在我們雲林大V鄉有一個已經沒有在營運的工廠堆了4200桶的消切切消液嘛\n\n18\n00:07:10,876 --> 00:07:17,899\n我對他有印証,真的有事,說得很清楚那怎麼處理他們關鍵盤處理相關的這些化學的物品等多久呢?一趟是五個月,等四、七、八個月,等多久不知道最後當然有移送法辦,後來有罰款後來又判刑,後來這4200桶的切消費跑去哪裡?\n\n19\n00:07:43,824 --> 00:08:06,941\n4200桶喔我們要做太陽光電如果我們對這事情都沒有掌握我覺得我必須要來跟行政院做反應因為這事情我們不是現在在討論我曾經在院會執行就已經在前前前前的署長你署長的時候就特別提到說這種事情你如果不重視\n\n20\n00:08:08,062 --> 00:08:35,493\n當台灣的能源的政策一直朝這個方向去做發展然後我們又沒有後端後續的一個處理的機制然後讓這四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費囤亂在那個地方不曉得多久時間是被一個路跑的一個百姓發現到去舉報的咧啊可以堆置在那個地方嗎啊可以堆置這麼久嗎那後續垮了判刑了四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費跑去哪裡\n\n21\n00:08:36,892 --> 00:08:47,079\n委員這個我們來去了解一下好不好你不可以到現在還不知道啊你到現在還不知道就糟糕了不知你會不會不知道你會不會不知道這樣用完會出問題啊這是當時多麼大的案件都已經見報了而且我們還在院會提出質詢的\n\n22\n00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:23,167\n今天的一個使用連線尚未到齊的太陽能光電板損壞了怎麼處理我們答揮所問我們不曉得程序處理太陽能光電板的切削液4200桶的5加侖的這麼大的數量到最終最後什麼地方處理掉了怎麼處理的你們不知道\n\n23\n00:09:26,057 --> 00:09:53,019\n包委員我們回去查一下這是在107年的時候當然就解除列管了當時是由地方政府提清理計畫書給地方政府審查之後他以清理計畫書的內容去執行那107年到現在因為解列我們再去查一下跟委員報告以上如果地方政府江老天不熟悉相關的程序\n\n24\n00:09:55,370 --> 00:10:10,892\n講藍衣田叫做怠惰叫做堵職的情況之下那我們身為一個主管機關一個監督的單位那我們都不曉得這些東西跑去哪裡環境部到時候不用負責嗎\n\n25\n00:10:15,526 --> 00:10:23,510\n我沒有針對這兩個數據怎麼做,但是我剛才聽起來一直覺得很奇怪這不是現在發生的事情,他們已經實施多久了大型的、家用的怎麼處理,中國已經絕對有一個統一的標準了我了解的是,清潔廠就沒有你收債,你怎麼會說清潔廠有你收債\n\n26\n00:10:39,358 --> 00:10:45,764\n你又說清潔隊還被批准給你,你還把清潔隊處理,讓清潔隊聽你的話要表揚是真的要表揚但是我的理解是沒有啊委員這個我們回去來檢討一下所以如果通通沒有接受你們建議的,清潔隊沒有去搜,那緩之是不是要處分?當然你沒辦法對他處分嘛\n\n27\n00:11:04,551 --> 00:11:25,991\n不過我是覺得張達富很不好啦,真的很不好我要提醒部長,兩位署長請回啦我這邊聽到不是針對這兩個署長我是想說,但是張達富是顯然是...我知道你那個報告寫得很好啦你讓大家覺得他的態度跟應對都很好但是我是要保證你用人也是有問題喔\n\n28\n00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:47,829\n我提醒一下,老挖署,一樣在這個委會,發生什麼事情,勞動部的老挖署,最緊急是北分署,發生那些霸凌的,發生到最後救安基金等等等,那分署長後來遇到什麼狀況,我都不再贅述了。連那個署長,連那個署長兩年內都有101年的異動。\n\n29\n00:11:52,150 --> 00:12:20,593\n所以當時的部長對這個事情沒有處理,就衍生這樣的問題就剛剛我們也特別提到了,開場白你的第一個被質詢的,就是前的機場總隊的隊長嘛我講那個官部很大,但是他就看你大到那裡啊大到他這兒他也不容易開關頂到嘛你看那個不是幾案耶,那個不是一兩件耶,那是好幾件耶所以人民會對政府失去信心了連自己公部門的同仁都會對機關所長失去信心了\n\n30\n00:12:22,904 --> 00:12:42,658\n環境部怎麼可以做出這樣不好的紀錄沒有道理啊環境部照理講不應該發生這種事情而且也不是只有北華署不是老華署還有台鐵還有台鐵一個案件\n\n31\n00:12:46,690 --> 00:13:12,453\n我今天坦白講我是要針對部長的AI報告啦這個AI到時候這個碳排放的一個處理會增加到你還難預估的這樣的一個程度嘛我是在你的報告裡面有啦有看到你在28項裡面推動數位轉型啦AI協力解決環境啦列出了以愛技術解決環境議題內部共用這個行政系統導入AI服務總統杯\n\n32\n00:13:13,533 --> 00:13:36,611\n黑客松競賽只有AI應用這樣而已嗎?這個每一個都很難做我們現在其實已經很多的工作都在融入了例如說會議記錄啊然後例如說環評啊等等我們都有在融入啦我們每一個司署都有AI的工作正在進行當中你剛剛三二說你講一句話我聽了真的也覺得\n\n33\n00:13:37,443 --> 00:13:58,426\n也覺得非常的敬佩你說表示要先推動環境部的數位轉型然後希望主管們都必須要上數位轉型的課程高階主管要懂得分析數據科長等著要寫程式希望以後這些主管的能力可以達到對外面資訊公司挖角的程度\n\n34\n00:14:00,269 --> 00:14:16,842\n這補充說的嘛,就是我看現在應該不是要下程式,是面對這個AI產業的高碳排,環境部要怎麼來因應?能源署有一個應該是副署長吧,他也在講說未來AI半導體這些碳排放,\n\n35\n00:14:17,830 --> 00:14:29,937\n要如何去降低基本上是沒有辦法的啦這是現實啊我們的報告裡面特別強調國家減碳新目標嘛2030年3.2、3.5分別一對照當時基準是2025的時候要達成減量分別是在2.8、3.2、3.8正負2%嘛對不對\n\n36\n00:14:45,899 --> 00:15:14,630\n那你有把這些算進去嗎?有包委員,我們現在是規劃2035年的用電需求量是到3500億度啦有把AI可能的需求都算進去了那目前大概是2800億度左右AI如果處理得好嘛,它或許,在你們報告也特別提到嘛它應用於怎麼煙露判斷啦、聲音監測啦怎麼波形石門瓦、屋頂的空間這個分布的季線調查等等等嘛然後\n\n37\n00:15:15,902 --> 00:15:32,193\n然後他或許還有機會管理得當這個是一個講法說AR的能工智能是雙面刃他雖然有高碳排的問題但如果產業界的一個評估AR在農業、能源、交通等領域運用得當的話預計還可以為全球經濟貢獻度高達5.2萬美元並減少4%的總溫室氣體的排放量\n\n38\n00:15:44,881 --> 00:16:10,541\n是這樣嗎?是對嗎?是但是你的報告裡面我沒有看到因為你分別的30年、32年、35年只是在2%、32年及38年增幅2%對包委我們是用AI需求的用電量增加放進去但是沒有算出AI讓我們可以減碳的規模我們目前在這個近零的路徑裡面沒有算得清楚那我們要跟部長再特別要求一份就是AI對減碳的衝擊與因應\n\n39\n00:16:12,608 --> 00:16:24,739\n比較詳細的報告可以嗎好因為他就跟用電需求啦所以呃好這個我們想辦法來來討論一下內部來討論一下好再幫部長一個月可以嗎好可以謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝劉建國稍微的發言也謝謝部長的答詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2591\t5837\t法定人數不足\n15186\t34602\t剛剛有委員槌尋說他能關電板一個叫做石油連線到時候怎麼處理另外一個是因為天災地變有損毀那我看你答覆那個委員我覺得你有點胸有不成竹然後你旁邊的幕僚還頻頻點頭因為那個槌尋的委員是要講說是叫清潔隊來處理是不是\n40399\t51172\t他在旁邊一直點頭,是這樣嗎?你要不要答覆清楚一點?一個是使用連線到了,怎麼處理?另外一個是使用連線尚未到了,因為天災地變它損壞了,怎麼處理?\n58372\t77852\t跟委員報告在使用年限道或者說天災地變就是因為天災的關係它有損壞都可以達到我們有一個碳能板的回收專線去集中來回收那另外一部分是說民眾可能有些小的它數量比較少那就可以跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收嘛對不對可以問清潔隊員\n82356\t110884\t看那個回收的管道是怎麼樣是問清潔隊員回收管道還是請清潔隊員來回收剛剛你的答案是請清潔隊員來回收那你的幕僚跟你一樣都投一支點哪一個清潔隊有在回收這個小型家用的碳能關鍵板如果是比較小的或是說因為它數量它是有稍微大一點可能它的回收車沒辦法回收那就要去清潔什麼叫比較小 什麼叫比較大怎麼去界定\n112376\t138283\t哪一個清潔隊有在收你講的所謂的比較小的這兩個問題就好簡單就好好不好有些是那個它有些它是屋頂那個早期小型的它那個小型的那如果回收車它可以回收你講回收車指清潔隊的回收車嘛對不對哪一個清潔隊的哪一個鄉鎮的哪一區的清潔隊的回收車有在回收可以明確跟我講嗎有嗎\n143837\t161577\t你要不要再確定一下是是 那我們是有跟我們的地方簽沒有啦如果有你就先跟我講嘛台北市哪一區還是運線哪一個鄉鎮的清潔隊有在收這個小型的因為天災地變損害的太陽能光電板\n163906\t173711\t跟委員報告我講的是說家戶的事可以一樣家戶啊我這跟你講也是家戶啊就小型家用不是家戶嗎對不對誰在收嘛哪一個清潔隊在收嘛跟委員報告我們也是有曾經有這個民眾打來那我們會跟清潔隊那邊來聯絡對你好那你就直接講各位講你們處理的實力給我聽嘛給委員會聽嘛你打給哪一個清潔隊嘛\n195558\t210140\t因為你每天要清災應領的嘛,你自己塞在清廠,你自己不知道,你說清潔堆有你修,我只能問,對,清潔堆有你修,你又說人家卡電來,你又還沒修,所以環境部,所以環境部就聯絡那個地方的清潔堆,好,你就跟我說對一下小型家用的太陽光電,因為天災地變損害之後,然後不曉得要找誰收,然後導致你環境部來,那環境部,然後再找地方的清潔隊,去做回收,\n227483\t228464\t天啊!天啊!誇張吧!你不會去?你這個事有什麼事?這是有些個案,我們過去是有...沒有沒有,你有些個案,你跟我講個案啊哪一個清潔隊啊?哪一個鄉鎮的啊?哪一個縣的啊?\n253485\t280883\t所以我不是要跟台灣吐槽債啦我是要跟你提倡說你這樣回答是有出問題啦都不可能嘛你們有心智跟舊智嘛對不對 那舊智我們就不談你的心智也不是這樣啊你的舊智也沒有這樣啊清潔隊就不肯去跟你搜小型家用的損害的開門光電板啊都不可能啊那你們自己的制度怎麼樣 你能不能簡單說明一下我時間有限 已經佔一半的時間了\n282762\t302760\t我們的制度現在是由我們是請能源署就在它的短購費率裡面有增加我們太陽能板的費用所以現在是由能源署這邊來幫我們發通知單由一些設置業者來繳錢那目前收的錢的情況是108到12年應收的費用是10億\n306684\t329764\t沒有,我沒有在問你多少錢嘛,署長不要這樣啦,好不好你們回收流程是不是這樣,你這個人,我個人沒聽你聽,沒聽你聽,這樣不對吧這樣處理事情怎麼會對,你對自己的業務沒清楚到這種程度大型營利回收時必須先登入PV、IS系統報備環境部會請臨近的業者處理之後向能源署申請相關費用,對不對\n332090\t351947\t這個已經省略很多了啦 其實一般業者都會直接跟這個反正就甲方乙方就會先簽訂合約啦萬一有這些狀況 那他們就會通知相關的業者來做處理嘛這是大型的嘛 應該是這樣嘛 矯正反矯正嘛對不對你小心加油 你人家可請清潔隊處理之清潔隊登陸PBIS系統轉交於相關業者處理之這個就有問題了啊\n360333\t371036\t你交給哪一個清潔隊處理之?你為什麼這樣?結果你沒辦法清潔,就在處理這件事啊你現在還要回答,叫做個案?然後什麼叫個案?不是這樣啦,我覺得這樣會出很大的問題啦部長你請上來啦\n381168\t403125\t組長 這個要討論一下 檢討一下啦 明確啦 好不好我只希望明確 因為你剛剛因為我剛剛有慶祝在主席台的時候在聆聽你講的時候 我就覺得很差異嘛因為我們都在基層 我們在跑嘛像這種事情我們經常會遇到就我遇到的清潔隊沒有在搜嘛我剛剛還問了別縣市的清潔隊有沒有在搜沒有啊 都沒在搜啊 他們都沒在搜啊這本身夾著就跟他們簽了合約啊老孫啊就對了 夾著就叫處理 夾著去處理啊\n407788\t430096\t他們關電業者就找處理的業者去做處理啦不管你大型小型嘛那怎麼在你們這個回收程序是完全不一樣所以你才會這麼打嘛那你這麼打就出問題啊就不是這樣啊好 那我為什麼要提醒這個事情106年的時候在我們雲林大V鄉有一個已經沒有在營運的工廠堆了4200桶的消 切 切消液嘛\n430876\t437899\t我對他有印証,真的有事,說得很清楚那怎麼處理他們關鍵盤處理相關的這些化學的物品等多久呢?一趟是五個月,等四、七、八個月,等多久不知道最後當然有移送法辦,後來有罰款後來又判刑,後來這4200桶的切消費跑去哪裡?\n463824\t486941\t4200桶喔我們要做太陽光電如果我們對這事情都沒有掌握我覺得我必須要來跟行政院做反應因為這事情我們不是現在在討論我曾經在院會執行就已經在前前前前的署長你署長的時候就特別提到說這種事情你如果不重視\n488062\t515493\t當台灣的能源的政策一直朝這個方向去做發展然後我們又沒有後端 後續的一個處理的機制然後讓這四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費囤亂在那個地方不曉得多久時間是被一個路跑的一個百姓發現到去舉報的咧啊可以堆置在那個地方嗎啊可以堆置這麼久嗎那後續 垮了 判刑了四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費跑去哪裡\n516892\t527079\t委員這個我們來去了解一下好不好你不可以到現在還不知道啊你到現在還不知道就糟糕了不知你會不會不知道你會不會不知道這樣用完會出問題啊這是當時多麼大的案件都已經見報了而且我們還在院會提出質詢的\n543120\t563167\t今天的一個使用連線尚未到齊的太陽能光電板損壞了怎麼處理我們答揮所問我們不曉得程序處理太陽能光電板的切削液4200桶的5加侖的這麼大的數量到最終最後什麼地方處理掉了怎麼處理的你們不知道\n566057\t593019\t包委員我們回去查一下這是在107年的時候當然就解除列管了當時是由地方政府提清理計畫書給地方政府審查之後他以清理計畫書的內容去執行那107年到現在因為解列我們再去查一下跟委員報告 以上如果地方政府江老天不熟悉相關的程序\n595370\t610892\t講藍衣田叫做怠惰叫做堵職的情況之下那我們身為一個主管機關一個監督的單位那我們都不曉得這些東西跑去哪裡環境部到時候不用負責嗎\n615526\t623510\t我沒有針對這兩個數據怎麼做,但是我剛才聽起來一直覺得很奇怪這不是現在發生的事情,他們已經實施多久了大型的、家用的怎麼處理,中國已經絕對有一個統一的標準了我了解的是,清潔廠就沒有你收債,你怎麼會說清潔廠有你收債\n639358\t645764\t你又說清潔隊還被批准給你,你還把清潔隊處理,讓清潔隊聽你的話要表揚是真的要表揚但是我的理解是沒有啊委員這個我們回去來檢討一下所以如果通通沒有接受你們建議的,清潔隊沒有去搜,那緩之是不是要處分?當然你沒辦法對他處分嘛\n664551\t685991\t不過我是覺得張達富很不好啦,真的很不好我要提醒部長,兩位署長請回啦我這邊聽到不是針對這兩個署長我是想說,但是張達富是顯然是...我知道你那個報告寫得很好啦你讓大家覺得他的態度跟應對都很好但是我是要保證你用人也是有問題喔\n688919\t707829\t我提醒一下,老挖署,一樣在這個委會,發生什麼事情,勞動部的老挖署,最緊急是北分署,發生那些霸凌的,發生到最後救安基金等等等,那分署長後來遇到什麼狀況,我都不再贅述了。連那個署長,連那個署長兩年內都有101年的異動。\n712150\t740593\t所以當時的部長對這個事情沒有處理,就衍生這樣的問題就剛剛我們也特別提到了,開場白你的第一個被質詢的,就是前的機場總隊的隊長嘛我講那個官部很大,但是他就看你大到那裡啊大到他這兒他也不容易開關頂到嘛你看那個不是幾案耶,那個不是一兩件耶,那是好幾件耶所以人民會對政府失去信心了連自己公部門的同仁都會對機關所長失去信心了\n742904\t762658\t環境部怎麼可以做出這樣不好的紀錄沒有道理啊環境部照理講不應該發生這種事情而且也不是只有北華署不是老華署還有台鐵還有台鐵一個案件\n766690\t792453\t我今天坦白講我是要針對部長的AI報告啦這個AI到時候這個碳排放的一個處理會增加到你還難預估的這樣的一個程度嘛我是在你的報告裡面有啦有看到你在28項裡面推動數位轉型啦AI協力解決環境啦列出了以愛技術解決環境議題內部共用這個行政系統導入AI服務總統杯\n793533\t816611\t黑客松競賽只有AI應用這樣而已嗎?這個每一個都很難做我們現在其實已經很多的工作都在融入了例如說會議記錄啊然後例如說環評啊等等我們都有在融入啦我們每一個司署都有AI的工作正在進行當中你剛剛三二說你講一句話我聽了真的也覺得\n817443\t838426\t也覺得非常的敬佩你說表示要先推動環境部的數位轉型然後希望主管們都必須要上數位轉型的課程高階主管要懂得分析數據科長等著要寫程式希望以後這些主管的能力可以達到對外面資訊公司挖角的程度\n840269\t856842\t這補充說的嘛,就是我看現在應該不是要下程式,是面對這個AI產業的高碳排,環境部要怎麼來因應?能源署有一個應該是副署長吧,他也在講說未來AI半導體這些碳排放,\n857830\t869937\t要如何去降低基本上是沒有辦法的啦這是現實啊我們的報告裡面特別強調國家減碳新目標嘛2030年3.2、3.5分別一對照當時基準是2025的時候要達成減量分別是在2.8、3.2、3.8正負2%嘛對不對\n885899\t914630\t那你有把這些算進去嗎?有包委員,我們現在是規劃2035年的用電需求量是到3500億度啦有把AI可能的需求都算進去了那目前大概是2800億度左右AI如果處理得好嘛,它或許,在你們報告也特別提到嘛它應用於怎麼煙露判斷啦、聲音監測啦怎麼波形石門瓦、屋頂的空間這個分布的季線調查等等等嘛然後\n915902\t932193\t然後他或許還有機會管理得當這個是一個講法說AR的能工智能是雙面刃他雖然有高碳排的問題但如果產業界的一個評估AR在農業、能源、交通等領域運用得當的話預計還可以為全球經濟貢獻度高達5.2萬美元並減少4%的總溫室氣體的排放量\n944881\t970541\t是這樣嗎?是對嗎?是但是你的報告裡面我沒有看到因為你分別的30年、32年、35年只是在2%、32年及38年增幅2%對 包委我們是用AI需求的用電量增加放進去但是沒有算出AI讓我們可以減碳的規模我們目前在這個近零的路徑裡面沒有算得清楚那我們要跟部長再特別要求一份就是AI對減碳的衝擊與因應\n972608\t984739\t比較詳細的報告可以嗎好因為他就跟用電需求啦所以呃好這個我們想辦法來來討論一下內部來討論一下好再幫部長一個月可以嗎好可以謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝劉建國稍微的發言也謝謝部長的答詢\n","txt":"法定人數不足\n剛剛有委員槌尋說他能關電板一個叫做石油連線到時候怎麼處理另外一個是因為天災地變有損毀那我看你答覆那個委員我覺得你有點胸有不成竹然後你旁邊的幕僚還頻頻點頭因為那個槌尋的委員是要講說是叫清潔隊來處理是不是\n他在旁邊一直點頭,是這樣嗎?你要不要答覆清楚一點?一個是使用連線到了,怎麼處理?另外一個是使用連線尚未到了,因為天災地變它損壞了,怎麼處理?\n跟委員報告在使用年限道或者說天災地變就是因為天災的關係它有損壞都可以達到我們有一個碳能板的回收專線去集中來回收那另外一部分是說民眾可能有些小的它數量比較少那就可以跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收嘛對不對可以問清潔隊員\n看那個回收的管道是怎麼樣是問清潔隊員回收管道還是請清潔隊員來回收剛剛你的答案是請清潔隊員來回收那你的幕僚跟你一樣都投一支點哪一個清潔隊有在回收這個小型家用的碳能關鍵板如果是比較小的或是說因為它數量它是有稍微大一點可能它的回收車沒辦法回收那就要去清潔什麼叫比較小 什麼叫比較大怎麼去界定\n哪一個清潔隊有在收你講的所謂的比較小的這兩個問題就好簡單就好好不好有些是那個它有些它是屋頂那個早期小型的它那個小型的那如果回收車它可以回收你講回收車指清潔隊的回收車嘛對不對哪一個清潔隊的哪一個鄉鎮的哪一區的清潔隊的回收車有在回收可以明確跟我講嗎有嗎\n你要不要再確定一下是是 那我們是有跟我們的地方簽沒有啦如果有你就先跟我講嘛台北市哪一區還是運線哪一個鄉鎮的清潔隊有在收這個小型的因為天災地變損害的太陽能光電板\n跟委員報告我講的是說家戶的事可以一樣家戶啊我這跟你講也是家戶啊就小型家用不是家戶嗎對不對誰在收嘛哪一個清潔隊在收嘛跟委員報告我們也是有曾經有這個民眾打來那我們會跟清潔隊那邊來聯絡對你好那你就直接講各位講你們處理的實力給我聽嘛給委員會聽嘛你打給哪一個清潔隊嘛\n因為你每天要清災應領的嘛,你自己塞在清廠,你自己不知道,你說清潔堆有你修,我只能問,對,清潔堆有你修,你又說人家卡電來,你又還沒修,所以環境部,所以環境部就聯絡那個地方的清潔堆,好,你就跟我說對一下小型家用的太陽光電,因為天災地變損害之後,然後不曉得要找誰收,然後導致你環境部來,那環境部,然後再找地方的清潔隊,去做回收,\n天啊!天啊!誇張吧!你不會去?你這個事有什麼事?這是有些個案,我們過去是有...沒有沒有,你有些個案,你跟我講個案啊哪一個清潔隊啊?哪一個鄉鎮的啊?哪一個縣的啊?\n所以我不是要跟台灣吐槽債啦我是要跟你提倡說你這樣回答是有出問題啦都不可能嘛你們有心智跟舊智嘛對不對 那舊智我們就不談你的心智也不是這樣啊你的舊智也沒有這樣啊清潔隊就不肯去跟你搜小型家用的損害的開門光電板啊都不可能啊那你們自己的制度怎麼樣 你能不能簡單說明一下我時間有限 已經佔一半的時間了\n我們的制度現在是由我們是請能源署就在它的短購費率裡面有增加我們太陽能板的費用所以現在是由能源署這邊來幫我們發通知單由一些設置業者來繳錢那目前收的錢的情況是108到12年應收的費用是10億\n沒有,我沒有在問你多少錢嘛,署長不要這樣啦,好不好你們回收流程是不是這樣,你這個人,我個人沒聽你聽,沒聽你聽,這樣不對吧這樣處理事情怎麼會對,你對自己的業務沒清楚到這種程度大型營利回收時必須先登入PV、IS系統報備環境部會請臨近的業者處理之後向能源署申請相關費用,對不對\n這個已經省略很多了啦 其實一般業者都會直接跟這個反正就甲方乙方就會先簽訂合約啦萬一有這些狀況 那他們就會通知相關的業者來做處理嘛這是大型的嘛 應該是這樣嘛 矯正反矯正嘛對不對你小心加油 你人家可請清潔隊處理之清潔隊登陸PBIS系統轉交於相關業者處理之這個就有問題了啊\n你交給哪一個清潔隊處理之?你為什麼這樣?結果你沒辦法清潔,就在處理這件事啊你現在還要回答,叫做個案?然後什麼叫個案?不是這樣啦,我覺得這樣會出很大的問題啦部長你請上來啦\n組長 這個要討論一下 檢討一下啦 明確啦 好不好我只希望明確 因為你剛剛因為我剛剛有慶祝在主席台的時候在聆聽你講的時候 我就覺得很差異嘛因為我們都在基層 我們在跑嘛像這種事情我們經常會遇到就我遇到的清潔隊沒有在搜嘛我剛剛還問了別縣市的清潔隊有沒有在搜沒有啊 都沒在搜啊 他們都沒在搜啊這本身夾著就跟他們簽了合約啊老孫啊就對了 夾著就叫處理 夾著去處理啊\n他們關電業者就找處理的業者去做處理啦不管你大型小型嘛那怎麼在你們這個回收程序是完全不一樣所以你才會這麼打嘛那你這麼打就出問題啊就不是這樣啊好 那我為什麼要提醒這個事情106年的時候在我們雲林大V鄉有一個已經沒有在營運的工廠堆了4200桶的消 切 切消液嘛\n我對他有印証,真的有事,說得很清楚那怎麼處理他們關鍵盤處理相關的這些化學的物品等多久呢?一趟是五個月,等四、七、八個月,等多久不知道最後當然有移送法辦,後來有罰款後來又判刑,後來這4200桶的切消費跑去哪裡?\n4200桶喔我們要做太陽光電如果我們對這事情都沒有掌握我覺得我必須要來跟行政院做反應因為這事情我們不是現在在討論我曾經在院會執行就已經在前前前前的署長你署長的時候就特別提到說這種事情你如果不重視\n當台灣的能源的政策一直朝這個方向去做發展然後我們又沒有後端 後續的一個處理的機制然後讓這四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費囤亂在那個地方不曉得多久時間是被一個路跑的一個百姓發現到去舉報的咧啊可以堆置在那個地方嗎啊可以堆置這麼久嗎那後續 垮了 判刑了四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費跑去哪裡\n委員這個我們來去了解一下好不好你不可以到現在還不知道啊你到現在還不知道就糟糕了不知你會不會不知道你會不會不知道這樣用完會出問題啊這是當時多麼大的案件都已經見報了而且我們還在院會提出質詢的\n今天的一個使用連線尚未到齊的太陽能光電板損壞了怎麼處理我們答揮所問我們不曉得程序處理太陽能光電板的切削液4200桶的5加侖的這麼大的數量到最終最後什麼地方處理掉了怎麼處理的你們不知道\n包委員我們回去查一下這是在107年的時候當然就解除列管了當時是由地方政府提清理計畫書給地方政府審查之後他以清理計畫書的內容去執行那107年到現在因為解列我們再去查一下跟委員報告 以上如果地方政府江老天不熟悉相關的程序\n講藍衣田叫做怠惰叫做堵職的情況之下那我們身為一個主管機關一個監督的單位那我們都不曉得這些東西跑去哪裡環境部到時候不用負責嗎\n我沒有針對這兩個數據怎麼做,但是我剛才聽起來一直覺得很奇怪這不是現在發生的事情,他們已經實施多久了大型的、家用的怎麼處理,中國已經絕對有一個統一的標準了我了解的是,清潔廠就沒有你收債,你怎麼會說清潔廠有你收債\n你又說清潔隊還被批准給你,你還把清潔隊處理,讓清潔隊聽你的話要表揚是真的要表揚但是我的理解是沒有啊委員這個我們回去來檢討一下所以如果通通沒有接受你們建議的,清潔隊沒有去搜,那緩之是不是要處分?當然你沒辦法對他處分嘛\n不過我是覺得張達富很不好啦,真的很不好我要提醒部長,兩位署長請回啦我這邊聽到不是針對這兩個署長我是想說,但是張達富是顯然是...我知道你那個報告寫得很好啦你讓大家覺得他的態度跟應對都很好但是我是要保證你用人也是有問題喔\n我提醒一下,老挖署,一樣在這個委會,發生什麼事情,勞動部的老挖署,最緊急是北分署,發生那些霸凌的,發生到最後救安基金等等等,那分署長後來遇到什麼狀況,我都不再贅述了。連那個署長,連那個署長兩年內都有101年的異動。\n所以當時的部長對這個事情沒有處理,就衍生這樣的問題就剛剛我們也特別提到了,開場白你的第一個被質詢的,就是前的機場總隊的隊長嘛我講那個官部很大,但是他就看你大到那裡啊大到他這兒他也不容易開關頂到嘛你看那個不是幾案耶,那個不是一兩件耶,那是好幾件耶所以人民會對政府失去信心了連自己公部門的同仁都會對機關所長失去信心了\n環境部怎麼可以做出這樣不好的紀錄沒有道理啊環境部照理講不應該發生這種事情而且也不是只有北華署不是老華署還有台鐵還有台鐵一個案件\n我今天坦白講我是要針對部長的AI報告啦這個AI到時候這個碳排放的一個處理會增加到你還難預估的這樣的一個程度嘛我是在你的報告裡面有啦有看到你在28項裡面推動數位轉型啦AI協力解決環境啦列出了以愛技術解決環境議題內部共用這個行政系統導入AI服務總統杯\n黑客松競賽只有AI應用這樣而已嗎?這個每一個都很難做我們現在其實已經很多的工作都在融入了例如說會議記錄啊然後例如說環評啊等等我們都有在融入啦我們每一個司署都有AI的工作正在進行當中你剛剛三二說你講一句話我聽了真的也覺得\n也覺得非常的敬佩你說表示要先推動環境部的數位轉型然後希望主管們都必須要上數位轉型的課程高階主管要懂得分析數據科長等著要寫程式希望以後這些主管的能力可以達到對外面資訊公司挖角的程度\n這補充說的嘛,就是我看現在應該不是要下程式,是面對這個AI產業的高碳排,環境部要怎麼來因應?能源署有一個應該是副署長吧,他也在講說未來AI半導體這些碳排放,\n要如何去降低基本上是沒有辦法的啦這是現實啊我們的報告裡面特別強調國家減碳新目標嘛2030年3.2、3.5分別一對照當時基準是2025的時候要達成減量分別是在2.8、3.2、3.8正負2%嘛對不對\n那你有把這些算進去嗎?有包委員,我們現在是規劃2035年的用電需求量是到3500億度啦有把AI可能的需求都算進去了那目前大概是2800億度左右AI如果處理得好嘛,它或許,在你們報告也特別提到嘛它應用於怎麼煙露判斷啦、聲音監測啦怎麼波形石門瓦、屋頂的空間這個分布的季線調查等等等嘛然後\n然後他或許還有機會管理得當這個是一個講法說AR的能工智能是雙面刃他雖然有高碳排的問題但如果產業界的一個評估AR在農業、能源、交通等領域運用得當的話預計還可以為全球經濟貢獻度高達5.2萬美元並減少4%的總溫室氣體的排放量\n是這樣嗎?是對嗎?是但是你的報告裡面我沒有看到因為你分別的30年、32年、35年只是在2%、32年及38年增幅2%對 包委我們是用AI需求的用電量增加放進去但是沒有算出AI讓我們可以減碳的規模我們目前在這個近零的路徑裡面沒有算得清楚那我們要跟部長再特別要求一份就是AI對減碳的衝擊與因應\n比較詳細的報告可以嗎好因為他就跟用電需求啦所以呃好這個我們想辦法來來討論一下內部來討論一下好再幫部長一個月可以嗎好可以謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝劉建國稍微的發言也謝謝部長的答詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.591 --> 00:05.837\n法定人數不足\n\n00:15.186 --> 00:34.602\n剛剛有委員槌尋說他能關電板一個叫做石油連線到時候怎麼處理另外一個是因為天災地變有損毀那我看你答覆那個委員我覺得你有點胸有不成竹然後你旁邊的幕僚還頻頻點頭因為那個槌尋的委員是要講說是叫清潔隊來處理是不是\n\n00:40.399 --> 00:51.172\n他在旁邊一直點頭,是這樣嗎?你要不要答覆清楚一點?一個是使用連線到了,怎麼處理?另外一個是使用連線尚未到了,因為天災地變它損壞了,怎麼處理?\n\n00:58.372 --> 01:17.852\n跟委員報告在使用年限道或者說天災地變就是因為天災的關係它有損壞都可以達到我們有一個碳能板的回收專線去集中來回收那另外一部分是說民眾可能有些小的它數量比較少那就可以跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收嘛對不對可以問清潔隊員\n\n01:22.356 --> 01:50.884\n看那個回收的管道是怎麼樣是問清潔隊員回收管道還是請清潔隊員來回收剛剛你的答案是請清潔隊員來回收那你的幕僚跟你一樣都投一支點哪一個清潔隊有在回收這個小型家用的碳能關鍵板如果是比較小的或是說因為它數量它是有稍微大一點可能它的回收車沒辦法回收那就要去清潔什麼叫比較小什麼叫比較大怎麼去界定\n\n01:52.376 --> 02:18.283\n哪一個清潔隊有在收你講的所謂的比較小的這兩個問題就好簡單就好好不好有些是那個它有些它是屋頂那個早期小型的它那個小型的那如果回收車它可以回收你講回收車指清潔隊的回收車嘛對不對哪一個清潔隊的哪一個鄉鎮的哪一區的清潔隊的回收車有在回收可以明確跟我講嗎有嗎\n\n02:23.837 --> 02:41.577\n你要不要再確定一下是是那我們是有跟我們的地方簽沒有啦如果有你就先跟我講嘛台北市哪一區還是運線哪一個鄉鎮的清潔隊有在收這個小型的因為天災地變損害的太陽能光電板\n\n02:43.906 --> 02:53.711\n跟委員報告我講的是說家戶的事可以一樣家戶啊我這跟你講也是家戶啊就小型家用不是家戶嗎對不對誰在收嘛哪一個清潔隊在收嘛跟委員報告我們也是有曾經有這個民眾打來那我們會跟清潔隊那邊來聯絡對你好那你就直接講各位講你們處理的實力給我聽嘛給委員會聽嘛你打給哪一個清潔隊嘛\n\n03:15.558 --> 03:30.140\n因為你每天要清災應領的嘛,你自己塞在清廠,你自己不知道,你說清潔堆有你修,我只能問,對,清潔堆有你修,你又說人家卡電來,你又還沒修,所以環境部,所以環境部就聯絡那個地方的清潔堆,好,你就跟我說對一下小型家用的太陽光電,因為天災地變損害之後,然後不曉得要找誰收,然後導致你環境部來,那環境部,然後再找地方的清潔隊,去做回收,\n\n03:47.483 --> 03:48.464\n天啊!天啊!誇張吧!你不會去?你這個事有什麼事?這是有些個案,我們過去是有...沒有沒有,你有些個案,你跟我講個案啊哪一個清潔隊啊?哪一個鄉鎮的啊?哪一個縣的啊?\n\n04:13.485 --> 04:40.883\n所以我不是要跟台灣吐槽債啦我是要跟你提倡說你這樣回答是有出問題啦都不可能嘛你們有心智跟舊智嘛對不對那舊智我們就不談你的心智也不是這樣啊你的舊智也沒有這樣啊清潔隊就不肯去跟你搜小型家用的損害的開門光電板啊都不可能啊那你們自己的制度怎麼樣你能不能簡單說明一下我時間有限已經佔一半的時間了\n\n04:42.762 --> 05:02.760\n我們的制度現在是由我們是請能源署就在它的短購費率裡面有增加我們太陽能板的費用所以現在是由能源署這邊來幫我們發通知單由一些設置業者來繳錢那目前收的錢的情況是108到12年應收的費用是10億\n\n05:06.684 --> 05:29.764\n沒有,我沒有在問你多少錢嘛,署長不要這樣啦,好不好你們回收流程是不是這樣,你這個人,我個人沒聽你聽,沒聽你聽,這樣不對吧這樣處理事情怎麼會對,你對自己的業務沒清楚到這種程度大型營利回收時必須先登入PV、IS系統報備環境部會請臨近的業者處理之後向能源署申請相關費用,對不對\n\n05:32.090 --> 05:51.947\n這個已經省略很多了啦其實一般業者都會直接跟這個反正就甲方乙方就會先簽訂合約啦萬一有這些狀況那他們就會通知相關的業者來做處理嘛這是大型的嘛應該是這樣嘛矯正反矯正嘛對不對你小心加油你人家可請清潔隊處理之清潔隊登陸PBIS系統轉交於相關業者處理之這個就有問題了啊\n\n06:00.333 --> 06:11.036\n你交給哪一個清潔隊處理之?你為什麼這樣?結果你沒辦法清潔,就在處理這件事啊你現在還要回答,叫做個案?然後什麼叫個案?不是這樣啦,我覺得這樣會出很大的問題啦部長你請上來啦\n\n06:21.168 --> 06:43.125\n組長這個要討論一下檢討一下啦明確啦好不好我只希望明確因為你剛剛因為我剛剛有慶祝在主席台的時候在聆聽你講的時候我就覺得很差異嘛因為我們都在基層我們在跑嘛像這種事情我們經常會遇到就我遇到的清潔隊沒有在搜嘛我剛剛還問了別縣市的清潔隊有沒有在搜沒有啊都沒在搜啊他們都沒在搜啊這本身夾著就跟他們簽了合約啊老孫啊就對了夾著就叫處理夾著去處理啊\n\n06:47.788 --> 07:10.096\n他們關電業者就找處理的業者去做處理啦不管你大型小型嘛那怎麼在你們這個回收程序是完全不一樣所以你才會這麼打嘛那你這麼打就出問題啊就不是這樣啊好那我為什麼要提醒這個事情106年的時候在我們雲林大V鄉有一個已經沒有在營運的工廠堆了4200桶的消切切消液嘛\n\n07:10.876 --> 07:17.899\n我對他有印証,真的有事,說得很清楚那怎麼處理他們關鍵盤處理相關的這些化學的物品等多久呢?一趟是五個月,等四、七、八個月,等多久不知道最後當然有移送法辦,後來有罰款後來又判刑,後來這4200桶的切消費跑去哪裡?\n\n07:43.824 --> 08:06.941\n4200桶喔我們要做太陽光電如果我們對這事情都沒有掌握我覺得我必須要來跟行政院做反應因為這事情我們不是現在在討論我曾經在院會執行就已經在前前前前的署長你署長的時候就特別提到說這種事情你如果不重視\n\n08:08.062 --> 08:35.493\n當台灣的能源的政策一直朝這個方向去做發展然後我們又沒有後端後續的一個處理的機制然後讓這四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費囤亂在那個地方不曉得多久時間是被一個路跑的一個百姓發現到去舉報的咧啊可以堆置在那個地方嗎啊可以堆置這麼久嗎那後續垮了判刑了四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費跑去哪裡\n\n08:36.892 --> 08:47.079\n委員這個我們來去了解一下好不好你不可以到現在還不知道啊你到現在還不知道就糟糕了不知你會不會不知道你會不會不知道這樣用完會出問題啊這是當時多麼大的案件都已經見報了而且我們還在院會提出質詢的\n\n09:03.120 --> 09:23.167\n今天的一個使用連線尚未到齊的太陽能光電板損壞了怎麼處理我們答揮所問我們不曉得程序處理太陽能光電板的切削液4200桶的5加侖的這麼大的數量到最終最後什麼地方處理掉了怎麼處理的你們不知道\n\n09:26.057 --> 09:53.019\n包委員我們回去查一下這是在107年的時候當然就解除列管了當時是由地方政府提清理計畫書給地方政府審查之後他以清理計畫書的內容去執行那107年到現在因為解列我們再去查一下跟委員報告以上如果地方政府江老天不熟悉相關的程序\n\n09:55.370 --> 10:10.892\n講藍衣田叫做怠惰叫做堵職的情況之下那我們身為一個主管機關一個監督的單位那我們都不曉得這些東西跑去哪裡環境部到時候不用負責嗎\n\n10:15.526 --> 10:23.510\n我沒有針對這兩個數據怎麼做,但是我剛才聽起來一直覺得很奇怪這不是現在發生的事情,他們已經實施多久了大型的、家用的怎麼處理,中國已經絕對有一個統一的標準了我了解的是,清潔廠就沒有你收債,你怎麼會說清潔廠有你收債\n\n10:39.358 --> 10:45.764\n你又說清潔隊還被批准給你,你還把清潔隊處理,讓清潔隊聽你的話要表揚是真的要表揚但是我的理解是沒有啊委員這個我們回去來檢討一下所以如果通通沒有接受你們建議的,清潔隊沒有去搜,那緩之是不是要處分?當然你沒辦法對他處分嘛\n\n11:04.551 --> 11:25.991\n不過我是覺得張達富很不好啦,真的很不好我要提醒部長,兩位署長請回啦我這邊聽到不是針對這兩個署長我是想說,但是張達富是顯然是...我知道你那個報告寫得很好啦你讓大家覺得他的態度跟應對都很好但是我是要保證你用人也是有問題喔\n\n11:28.919 --> 11:47.829\n我提醒一下,老挖署,一樣在這個委會,發生什麼事情,勞動部的老挖署,最緊急是北分署,發生那些霸凌的,發生到最後救安基金等等等,那分署長後來遇到什麼狀況,我都不再贅述了。連那個署長,連那個署長兩年內都有101年的異動。\n\n11:52.150 --> 12:20.593\n所以當時的部長對這個事情沒有處理,就衍生這樣的問題就剛剛我們也特別提到了,開場白你的第一個被質詢的,就是前的機場總隊的隊長嘛我講那個官部很大,但是他就看你大到那裡啊大到他這兒他也不容易開關頂到嘛你看那個不是幾案耶,那個不是一兩件耶,那是好幾件耶所以人民會對政府失去信心了連自己公部門的同仁都會對機關所長失去信心了\n\n12:22.904 --> 12:42.658\n環境部怎麼可以做出這樣不好的紀錄沒有道理啊環境部照理講不應該發生這種事情而且也不是只有北華署不是老華署還有台鐵還有台鐵一個案件\n\n12:46.690 --> 13:12.453\n我今天坦白講我是要針對部長的AI報告啦這個AI到時候這個碳排放的一個處理會增加到你還難預估的這樣的一個程度嘛我是在你的報告裡面有啦有看到你在28項裡面推動數位轉型啦AI協力解決環境啦列出了以愛技術解決環境議題內部共用這個行政系統導入AI服務總統杯\n\n13:13.533 --> 13:36.611\n黑客松競賽只有AI應用這樣而已嗎?這個每一個都很難做我們現在其實已經很多的工作都在融入了例如說會議記錄啊然後例如說環評啊等等我們都有在融入啦我們每一個司署都有AI的工作正在進行當中你剛剛三二說你講一句話我聽了真的也覺得\n\n13:37.443 --> 13:58.426\n也覺得非常的敬佩你說表示要先推動環境部的數位轉型然後希望主管們都必須要上數位轉型的課程高階主管要懂得分析數據科長等著要寫程式希望以後這些主管的能力可以達到對外面資訊公司挖角的程度\n\n14:00.269 --> 14:16.842\n這補充說的嘛,就是我看現在應該不是要下程式,是面對這個AI產業的高碳排,環境部要怎麼來因應?能源署有一個應該是副署長吧,他也在講說未來AI半導體這些碳排放,\n\n14:17.830 --> 14:29.937\n要如何去降低基本上是沒有辦法的啦這是現實啊我們的報告裡面特別強調國家減碳新目標嘛2030年3.2、3.5分別一對照當時基準是2025的時候要達成減量分別是在2.8、3.2、3.8正負2%嘛對不對\n\n14:45.899 --> 15:14.630\n那你有把這些算進去嗎?有包委員,我們現在是規劃2035年的用電需求量是到3500億度啦有把AI可能的需求都算進去了那目前大概是2800億度左右AI如果處理得好嘛,它或許,在你們報告也特別提到嘛它應用於怎麼煙露判斷啦、聲音監測啦怎麼波形石門瓦、屋頂的空間這個分布的季線調查等等等嘛然後\n\n15:15.902 --> 15:32.193\n然後他或許還有機會管理得當這個是一個講法說AR的能工智能是雙面刃他雖然有高碳排的問題但如果產業界的一個評估AR在農業、能源、交通等領域運用得當的話預計還可以為全球經濟貢獻度高達5.2萬美元並減少4%的總溫室氣體的排放量\n\n15:44.881 --> 16:10.541\n是這樣嗎?是對嗎?是但是你的報告裡面我沒有看到因為你分別的30年、32年、35年只是在2%、32年及38年增幅2%對包委我們是用AI需求的用電量增加放進去但是沒有算出AI讓我們可以減碳的規模我們目前在這個近零的路徑裡面沒有算得清楚那我們要跟部長再特別要求一份就是AI對減碳的衝擊與因應\n\n16:12.608 --> 16:24.739\n比較詳細的報告可以嗎好因為他就跟用電需求啦所以呃好這個我們想辦法來來討論一下內部來討論一下好再幫部長一個月可以嗎好可以謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝劉建國稍微的發言也謝謝部長的答詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.591,"end":5.837,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15.186,"end":34.602,"text":"剛剛有委員槌尋說他能關電板一個叫做石油連線到時候怎麼處理另外一個是因為天災地變有損毀那我看你答覆那個委員我覺得你有點胸有不成竹然後你旁邊的幕僚還頻頻點頭因為那個槌尋的委員是要講說是叫清潔隊來處理是不是"},{"start":40.399,"end":51.172,"text":"他在旁邊一直點頭,是這樣嗎?你要不要答覆清楚一點?一個是使用連線到了,怎麼處理?另外一個是使用連線尚未到了,因為天災地變它損壞了,怎麼處理?"},{"start":58.372,"end":77.852,"text":"跟委員報告在使用年限道或者說天災地變就是因為天災的關係它有損壞都可以達到我們有一個碳能板的回收專線去集中來回收那另外一部分是說民眾可能有些小的它數量比較少那就可以跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收嘛對不對可以問清潔隊員"},{"start":82.356,"end":110.884,"text":"看那個回收的管道是怎麼樣是問清潔隊員回收管道還是請清潔隊員來回收剛剛你的答案是請清潔隊員來回收那你的幕僚跟你一樣都投一支點哪一個清潔隊有在回收這個小型家用的碳能關鍵板如果是比較小的或是說因為它數量它是有稍微大一點可能它的回收車沒辦法回收那就要去清潔什麼叫比較小 什麼叫比較大怎麼去界定"},{"start":112.376,"end":138.283,"text":"哪一個清潔隊有在收你講的所謂的比較小的這兩個問題就好簡單就好好不好有些是那個它有些它是屋頂那個早期小型的它那個小型的那如果回收車它可以回收你講回收車指清潔隊的回收車嘛對不對哪一個清潔隊的哪一個鄉鎮的哪一區的清潔隊的回收車有在回收可以明確跟我講嗎有嗎"},{"start":143.837,"end":161.577,"text":"你要不要再確定一下是是 那我們是有跟我們的地方簽沒有啦如果有你就先跟我講嘛台北市哪一區還是運線哪一個鄉鎮的清潔隊有在收這個小型的因為天災地變損害的太陽能光電板"},{"start":163.906,"end":173.711,"text":"跟委員報告我講的是說家戶的事可以一樣家戶啊我這跟你講也是家戶啊就小型家用不是家戶嗎對不對誰在收嘛哪一個清潔隊在收嘛跟委員報告我們也是有曾經有這個民眾打來那我們會跟清潔隊那邊來聯絡對你好那你就直接講各位講你們處理的實力給我聽嘛給委員會聽嘛你打給哪一個清潔隊嘛"},{"start":195.558,"end":210.14,"text":"因為你每天要清災應領的嘛,你自己塞在清廠,你自己不知道,你說清潔堆有你修,我只能問,對,清潔堆有你修,你又說人家卡電來,你又還沒修,所以環境部,所以環境部就聯絡那個地方的清潔堆,好,你就跟我說對一下小型家用的太陽光電,因為天災地變損害之後,然後不曉得要找誰收,然後導致你環境部來,那環境部,然後再找地方的清潔隊,去做回收,"},{"start":227.483,"end":228.464,"text":"天啊!天啊!誇張吧!你不會去?你這個事有什麼事?這是有些個案,我們過去是有...沒有沒有,你有些個案,你跟我講個案啊哪一個清潔隊啊?哪一個鄉鎮的啊?哪一個縣的啊?"},{"start":253.485,"end":280.883,"text":"所以我不是要跟台灣吐槽債啦我是要跟你提倡說你這樣回答是有出問題啦都不可能嘛你們有心智跟舊智嘛對不對 那舊智我們就不談你的心智也不是這樣啊你的舊智也沒有這樣啊清潔隊就不肯去跟你搜小型家用的損害的開門光電板啊都不可能啊那你們自己的制度怎麼樣 你能不能簡單說明一下我時間有限 已經佔一半的時間了"},{"start":282.762,"end":302.76,"text":"我們的制度現在是由我們是請能源署就在它的短購費率裡面有增加我們太陽能板的費用所以現在是由能源署這邊來幫我們發通知單由一些設置業者來繳錢那目前收的錢的情況是108到12年應收的費用是10億"},{"start":306.684,"end":329.764,"text":"沒有,我沒有在問你多少錢嘛,署長不要這樣啦,好不好你們回收流程是不是這樣,你這個人,我個人沒聽你聽,沒聽你聽,這樣不對吧這樣處理事情怎麼會對,你對自己的業務沒清楚到這種程度大型營利回收時必須先登入PV、IS系統報備環境部會請臨近的業者處理之後向能源署申請相關費用,對不對"},{"start":332.09,"end":351.947,"text":"這個已經省略很多了啦 其實一般業者都會直接跟這個反正就甲方乙方就會先簽訂合約啦萬一有這些狀況 那他們就會通知相關的業者來做處理嘛這是大型的嘛 應該是這樣嘛 矯正反矯正嘛對不對你小心加油 你人家可請清潔隊處理之清潔隊登陸PBIS系統轉交於相關業者處理之這個就有問題了啊"},{"start":360.333,"end":371.036,"text":"你交給哪一個清潔隊處理之?你為什麼這樣?結果你沒辦法清潔,就在處理這件事啊你現在還要回答,叫做個案?然後什麼叫個案?不是這樣啦,我覺得這樣會出很大的問題啦部長你請上來啦"},{"start":381.168,"end":403.125,"text":"組長 這個要討論一下 檢討一下啦 明確啦 好不好我只希望明確 因為你剛剛因為我剛剛有慶祝在主席台的時候在聆聽你講的時候 我就覺得很差異嘛因為我們都在基層 我們在跑嘛像這種事情我們經常會遇到就我遇到的清潔隊沒有在搜嘛我剛剛還問了別縣市的清潔隊有沒有在搜沒有啊 都沒在搜啊 他們都沒在搜啊這本身夾著就跟他們簽了合約啊老孫啊就對了 夾著就叫處理 夾著去處理啊"},{"start":407.788,"end":430.096,"text":"他們關電業者就找處理的業者去做處理啦不管你大型小型嘛那怎麼在你們這個回收程序是完全不一樣所以你才會這麼打嘛那你這麼打就出問題啊就不是這樣啊好 那我為什麼要提醒這個事情106年的時候在我們雲林大V鄉有一個已經沒有在營運的工廠堆了4200桶的消 切 切消液嘛"},{"start":430.876,"end":437.899,"text":"我對他有印証,真的有事,說得很清楚那怎麼處理他們關鍵盤處理相關的這些化學的物品等多久呢?一趟是五個月,等四、七、八個月,等多久不知道最後當然有移送法辦,後來有罰款後來又判刑,後來這4200桶的切消費跑去哪裡?"},{"start":463.824,"end":486.941,"text":"4200桶喔我們要做太陽光電如果我們對這事情都沒有掌握我覺得我必須要來跟行政院做反應因為這事情我們不是現在在討論我曾經在院會執行就已經在前前前前的署長你署長的時候就特別提到說這種事情你如果不重視"},{"start":488.062,"end":515.493,"text":"當台灣的能源的政策一直朝這個方向去做發展然後我們又沒有後端 後續的一個處理的機制然後讓這四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費囤亂在那個地方不曉得多久時間是被一個路跑的一個百姓發現到去舉報的咧啊可以堆置在那個地方嗎啊可以堆置這麼久嗎那後續 垮了 判刑了四千兩百桶的五家輪的切消費跑去哪裡"},{"start":516.892,"end":527.079,"text":"委員這個我們來去了解一下好不好你不可以到現在還不知道啊你到現在還不知道就糟糕了不知你會不會不知道你會不會不知道這樣用完會出問題啊這是當時多麼大的案件都已經見報了而且我們還在院會提出質詢的"},{"start":543.12,"end":563.167,"text":"今天的一個使用連線尚未到齊的太陽能光電板損壞了怎麼處理我們答揮所問我們不曉得程序處理太陽能光電板的切削液4200桶的5加侖的這麼大的數量到最終最後什麼地方處理掉了怎麼處理的你們不知道"},{"start":566.057,"end":593.019,"text":"包委員我們回去查一下這是在107年的時候當然就解除列管了當時是由地方政府提清理計畫書給地方政府審查之後他以清理計畫書的內容去執行那107年到現在因為解列我們再去查一下跟委員報告 以上如果地方政府江老天不熟悉相關的程序"},{"start":595.37,"end":610.892,"text":"講藍衣田叫做怠惰叫做堵職的情況之下那我們身為一個主管機關一個監督的單位那我們都不曉得這些東西跑去哪裡環境部到時候不用負責嗎"},{"start":615.526,"end":623.51,"text":"我沒有針對這兩個數據怎麼做,但是我剛才聽起來一直覺得很奇怪這不是現在發生的事情,他們已經實施多久了大型的、家用的怎麼處理,中國已經絕對有一個統一的標準了我了解的是,清潔廠就沒有你收債,你怎麼會說清潔廠有你收債"},{"start":639.358,"end":645.764,"text":"你又說清潔隊還被批准給你,你還把清潔隊處理,讓清潔隊聽你的話要表揚是真的要表揚但是我的理解是沒有啊委員這個我們回去來檢討一下所以如果通通沒有接受你們建議的,清潔隊沒有去搜,那緩之是不是要處分?當然你沒辦法對他處分嘛"},{"start":664.551,"end":685.991,"text":"不過我是覺得張達富很不好啦,真的很不好我要提醒部長,兩位署長請回啦我這邊聽到不是針對這兩個署長我是想說,但是張達富是顯然是...我知道你那個報告寫得很好啦你讓大家覺得他的態度跟應對都很好但是我是要保證你用人也是有問題喔"},{"start":688.919,"end":707.829,"text":"我提醒一下,老挖署,一樣在這個委會,發生什麼事情,勞動部的老挖署,最緊急是北分署,發生那些霸凌的,發生到最後救安基金等等等,那分署長後來遇到什麼狀況,我都不再贅述了。連那個署長,連那個署長兩年內都有101年的異動。"},{"start":712.15,"end":740.593,"text":"所以當時的部長對這個事情沒有處理,就衍生這樣的問題就剛剛我們也特別提到了,開場白你的第一個被質詢的,就是前的機場總隊的隊長嘛我講那個官部很大,但是他就看你大到那裡啊大到他這兒他也不容易開關頂到嘛你看那個不是幾案耶,那個不是一兩件耶,那是好幾件耶所以人民會對政府失去信心了連自己公部門的同仁都會對機關所長失去信心了"},{"start":742.904,"end":762.658,"text":"環境部怎麼可以做出這樣不好的紀錄沒有道理啊環境部照理講不應該發生這種事情而且也不是只有北華署不是老華署還有台鐵還有台鐵一個案件"},{"start":766.69,"end":792.453,"text":"我今天坦白講我是要針對部長的AI報告啦這個AI到時候這個碳排放的一個處理會增加到你還難預估的這樣的一個程度嘛我是在你的報告裡面有啦有看到你在28項裡面推動數位轉型啦AI協力解決環境啦列出了以愛技術解決環境議題內部共用這個行政系統導入AI服務總統杯"},{"start":793.533,"end":816.611,"text":"黑客松競賽只有AI應用這樣而已嗎?這個每一個都很難做我們現在其實已經很多的工作都在融入了例如說會議記錄啊然後例如說環評啊等等我們都有在融入啦我們每一個司署都有AI的工作正在進行當中你剛剛三二說你講一句話我聽了真的也覺得"},{"start":817.443,"end":838.426,"text":"也覺得非常的敬佩你說表示要先推動環境部的數位轉型然後希望主管們都必須要上數位轉型的課程高階主管要懂得分析數據科長等著要寫程式希望以後這些主管的能力可以達到對外面資訊公司挖角的程度"},{"start":840.269,"end":856.842,"text":"這補充說的嘛,就是我看現在應該不是要下程式,是面對這個AI產業的高碳排,環境部要怎麼來因應?能源署有一個應該是副署長吧,他也在講說未來AI半導體這些碳排放,"},{"start":857.83,"end":869.937,"text":"要如何去降低基本上是沒有辦法的啦這是現實啊我們的報告裡面特別強調國家減碳新目標嘛2030年3.2、3.5分別一對照當時基準是2025的時候要達成減量分別是在2.8、3.2、3.8正負2%嘛對不對"},{"start":885.899,"end":914.63,"text":"那你有把這些算進去嗎?有包委員,我們現在是規劃2035年的用電需求量是到3500億度啦有把AI可能的需求都算進去了那目前大概是2800億度左右AI如果處理得好嘛,它或許,在你們報告也特別提到嘛它應用於怎麼煙露判斷啦、聲音監測啦怎麼波形石門瓦、屋頂的空間這個分布的季線調查等等等嘛然後"},{"start":915.902,"end":932.193,"text":"然後他或許還有機會管理得當這個是一個講法說AR的能工智能是雙面刃他雖然有高碳排的問題但如果產業界的一個評估AR在農業、能源、交通等領域運用得當的話預計還可以為全球經濟貢獻度高達5.2萬美元並減少4%的總溫室氣體的排放量"},{"start":944.881,"end":970.541,"text":"是這樣嗎?是對嗎?是但是你的報告裡面我沒有看到因為你分別的30年、32年、35年只是在2%、32年及38年增幅2%對 包委我們是用AI需求的用電量增加放進去但是沒有算出AI讓我們可以減碳的規模我們目前在這個近零的路徑裡面沒有算得清楚那我們要跟部長再特別要求一份就是AI對減碳的衝擊與因應"},{"start":972.608,"end":984.739,"text":"比較詳細的報告可以嗎好因為他就跟用電需求啦所以呃好這個我們想辦法來來討論一下內部來討論一下好再幫部長一個月可以嗎好可以謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝劉建國稍微的發言也謝謝部長的答詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1106,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時37分）謝謝主席。部長，你先休息一下，你今天穿得這麼時髦，你不要一直起來。","請賴署長。"],["主席：麻煩賴署長。"],["劉委員建國：賴署長，剛剛有委員垂詢，說太陽能光電板使用年限到的時候怎麼處理，另外一個是因為天災地變有損毀。我看你答復委員，我覺得你有點胸有不成竹，然後你旁邊的幕僚還頻頻點頭，因為那位垂詢的委員講要叫清潔隊來處理是不是？他還在旁邊一直點頭，是這樣嗎？你要不要答復清楚一點？一個是使用年限到了怎麼處理？另外一個是使用年限尚未到，因為天災地變損壞了，怎麼處理？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，使用年限到或者說天災地變，就是因為天災的關係有損壞，都可以打到我們太陽能板的回收專線集中回收。另外一部分，民眾可能有些小的，數量比較少，就可以跟清潔隊聯絡回收。"],["劉委員建國：跟清潔隊聯絡來回收嘛！對不對？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：可以問清潔隊員看回收的管道是怎麼樣。"],["劉委員建國：是問清潔隊員回收的管道，還是請清潔隊員來回收？剛剛你的答復是請清潔隊員來回收，你的幕僚跟你一樣都頭一直點，哪一個清潔隊有在回收小型家用的太陽能光電板？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：如果是比較小的或是因為有稍微大一點，可能他的回收車沒辦法回收，那就要去……"],["劉委員建國：什麼叫比較小？什麼叫比較大？怎麼去界定？哪一個清潔隊有在收你講的所謂比較小的？這兩個問題就好，簡單就好，好不好？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有些是屋頂早期小型的，那個小型的如果回收車可以回收，車子可以回收……"],["劉委員建國：你講的回收車是指清潔隊的回收車，對不對？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：對，可以搬動的。"],["劉委員建國：哪一個鄉鎮、哪一區的清潔隊回收車有在回收？可以明確跟我講嗎？有嗎？你要不要再確定一下？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，我們是有跟地方清潔隊……"],["劉委員建國：沒有啦！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是。"],["劉委員建國：如果有你就現在跟我講嘛，臺北市哪一區？還是雲林縣哪一個鄉鎮的清潔隊，有在收這個因為天災地變損害的小型太陽能光電板？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我講的是家戶的可以……"],["劉委員建國：一樣家戶啊，我跟你講的也是家戶啊，小型家用的不是家戶嗎？誰在收嘛，哪一個清潔隊在收嘛？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，也曾經有民眾打給我們，我們會跟清潔隊聯絡……"],["劉委員建國：好，那你就直接講你們處理的實例給我聽嘛、給委員會聽嘛，你打給哪一個清潔隊？你們不能隨便回答啦，你們自己推的政策你們自己都不知道，你們說清潔隊有在收，我現在問哪一個清潔隊有在收。你還說民眾常常打電話給你們署，所以環境部就聯絡那個地方的清潔隊，好啊，那你就跟我說是哪一個啊？小型家用的太陽能光電板因為天災地變損害之後不曉得要找誰收，然後打到你們環境部，環境部再找地方的清潔隊回收，天啊，天啊！誇張吧！你可以處理得了嗎？你們署有在做這樣的事情？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，就是有些個案，我們過去是有……"],["劉委員建國：沒有、沒有，有些個案你跟我講個案啊，哪一個清潔隊、哪一個鄉鎮的、哪一個縣的啊？署長，我不是要故意來吐槽你這個啦，我是要跟你提醒你這樣回答有出問題，就不可能嘛，你們有新制跟舊制，舊制我們就不談，你的新制也不是這樣，你的舊制也沒有這樣啊，清潔隊就不可能去收損害的小型家用太陽能光電板，就不可能啊！你們自己的制度是怎麼樣，你能不能簡單說明一下？我時間有限，已經占一半的時間了。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們的制度現在是請能源署在它的躉購費率裡面增加太陽能板的費用，所以現在是由能源署幫我們發通知單，由這些設置業者繳錢。目前108年到112年收錢的情況，應收的費用是10億……"],["劉委員建國：沒有，我沒有在問你多少錢，署長，不要這樣好不好？你們回收的流程是不是這樣？你們來我還要唸給你們聽，部長，你聽一下，這樣不對吧？這樣處理事情怎麼對？你對自己的業務不清楚到這種程度。大型營利的部分，回收時必須先登錄PVIS系統報備，環境部會請鄰近的業者處理之後向能源署申請相關費用，對不對？這個已經省略很多了，其實一般業者都會直接跟……反正甲方、乙方就會先簽訂合約，萬一有這些狀況，他們就會通知相關的業者來處理，這是大型的，應該是這樣嘛，就是繳錢；但小型家用的部分，你寫可請清潔隊處理之，清潔隊登錄PVIS系統轉交於相關業者處理之。這個就有問題了啊！你交給哪一個清潔隊處理之？你寫這樣耶，結果你都沒有報給清潔隊處理這件事情啊，你現在還跟我回答說這叫做個案，哪有什麼叫個案？不是這樣啦！我覺得這樣會出很大的問題啦。","部長，你請上來。","署長，這個要討論一下、檢討一下，要明確啦，好不好？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：好。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：我只是希望明確，我剛才剛好有幸坐在主席臺，所以在聆聽你講的時候，我就覺得很詫異，因為我們都在基層跑，像這種事情我們經常會遇到，就我遇到的，清潔隊並沒有在收，我剛剛也問了別縣市的清潔隊有沒有在收，沒有，就沒有在收啊，他們就沒有在收啊，因為本身業者就跟他們簽了合約，如果有損害，就叫處理業者去處理了，他們光電業者就找處理的業者去處理了，不管大型、小型，怎麼知道你們的回收程序完全不一樣，所以你才會這麼答，你這麼答就出問題了，就不是這樣啊。","我為什麼要提醒這件事情？106年的時候，在我們雲林大埤鄉有一個已經沒有在營運的工廠堆了4,200桶的切削液，部長應該對這件事情有印象，署長也很清楚，對不對？那是專門處理太陽能光電板相關的化學物品，囤了多少？一桶是5加侖，囤了4,200桶，囤了多久不知道，最後當然有移送法辦，後來有罰款，最後也有判刑，後來這4,200桶的切削液跑去哪裡？4,200桶喔！如果我們要做太陽能光電，而你們這對這件事情都沒有掌握，我覺得我必須要跟行政院反映，因為這件事情我們不是現在才討論，我曾經在院會質詢就已經提過了，在前、前、前、前署長李署長的時候，我就特別提到，這件事情你如果不重視，當臺灣的能源政策一直朝這個方向發展，我們又沒有後端、後續的處理機制，而讓這4,200桶5加侖的切削液囤放在那個地方不曉得多久時間，是被一個路跑的百姓發現而去舉報的。可以堆置在那個地方嗎？可以堆置這麼久嗎？後續雖然罰了、判刑了，但這4,200桶5加侖的切削液跑去哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們去了解一下好不好？這個……"],["劉委員建國：你不能到現在還不知道啊！你到現在還不知道就交代不過去了啊！部長，你可以不知道，你下面的幕僚怎麼可以不知道？部長，這樣用人會出問題啦。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：這個當時是多麼大的案件，都已經見報了，而且我們還在院會提出質詢，今天一個使用年限尚未到期的太陽能光電板損壞了怎麼處理，你們答非所問，你們不曉程序！處理太陽能光電板的切削液，4,200桶5加侖這麼大的數量最後在什麼地方處理掉了、怎麼處理的，你們不知道。"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，我們回去查一下，這在107年的時候就解除列管了，當時是提清理計畫書給地方政府審查之後，它依清理計畫書的內容去執行，107年到現在，因為已經解列，我們再查一下，跟委員報告。以上。"],["劉委員建國：如果地方政府……講好聽是不熟悉相關程序，講難聽一點叫做怠惰、叫做瀆職，這樣的情況之下，你們身為一個主管機關、一個監督單位，你們都不曉得這些東西跑去哪裡，環境部到時候不用負責嗎？部長，我要跟你提醒，我沒有針對這兩個署長啦，但是我剛才這樣聽起來，我一直覺得很奇怪啦，因為他們光是對於太陽能光電板……這不是現在發生的事情啊，太陽能光電板相關政策已經實施多久了，大型的、家用的要怎麼處理，全國絕對有一個統一的標準嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：就我了解清潔隊就沒有在收這個，你們怎麼會說清潔隊有在收這個？你還說有民眾打電話給你們，你們再交代清潔隊去處理，那個清潔隊很聽你們的話，要表揚，是真的要表揚，但以我的了解就是沒有啊。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，這個我們回去檢討一下。"],["劉委員建國：對，如果通通沒有接受你們的建議，清潔隊也沒有去收，反之是不是要處分？但你們沒辦法對它處分嘛，不過我是覺得這樣答復很不好啦，真的很不好。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：兩位署長請回。我要提醒部長，我特別強調我不是針對這兩位署長，但是這樣答復顯然是……枉費你們的報告寫得這麼好，你給大家的感覺態度跟應對都很好，但是我要跟部長提醒，你用人也是有問題喔！我提醒一下，勞發署在這個委員會發生什麼事情，就是勞動部的勞發署，尤其是北分署，發生那些霸凌的事件，還有就安基金等等，到後來分署長有哪些狀況，我都不再贅述了。你的署長兩年內都有101人的異動，當時的部長對這些事情沒有處理，就衍生這樣的問題，就是剛剛我們特別提到的開場白，你第一個被質詢的事情就是有關前督察總隊隊長，我說那個官等沒有很大，但是他的權力大到可以用到那種程度，你看那不是幾案、那不是一兩件，那是好幾件耶！所以人民會對政府失去信心，連自己公部門的同仁都會對機關首長失去信心，環境部怎麼可以做出這樣一個不好的紀錄？沒有道理啊，照理講環境部不應該發生這種事情啦！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：而且你看也不是只有勞發署北分署，還有臺鐵一個案件。坦白講，我今天是要針對部長的AI報告，就是碳排放的處理會增加到你很難預估的程度，我在你的報告裡面有看到，第28項是推動數位轉型、AI協力解決環境，列出了以AI技術解決環境議題、內部共用行政系統導入AI服務、總統杯黑客松競賽結合AI應用，只有就這樣而已！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這每一個都很難做，其實我們現在很多工作都已經在融入了，例如會議紀錄、環評等等，我們都有在融入，我們每一個司署都有AI的工作正在進行當中。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你剛剛上任的時候有講一句話，我聽了也真的覺得非常敬佩，你怎麼講呢？你宣示要推動環境部的數位轉型，希望主管們都必須要上數位轉型的課程，高階主管要懂得分析數據、科長等則要寫程式，希望1年後這些主管的能力可以達到被外面資訊公司挖角的程度。這是部長說的嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是！"],["劉委員建國：但我覺得現在應該不是只會寫程式，而是面對AI產業的高碳排，環境部要怎麼因應。有一位經濟部產業發展署永續發展組的副組長還說，未來AI、半導體這些碳排放要如何降低，基本上沒有辦法。對吧？這是現實啊！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：你們的報告裡面特別強調國家減碳新目標，2030年、2032年、2035年分別對照基準年（2005年）要達成減量28±2%、32±2%、38±2%，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：那你有把這些算進去嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，報告委員，我們現在是規劃2035年的用電需求量到3,500億度，有把AI可能的需求都算去了，目前大概是2,800億度左右。"],["劉委員建國：AI如果處理得好，在你們的報告裡面也特別提到，它應用於煙霧判斷、聲音監測、波形石棉瓦屋頂空間分布的基線調查等等。然後它或許還有機會管理得當……這是一個講法，AI的人工智慧是雙面刃，它雖然有高碳排的問題，但依產業界的評估，AI在農業、能源、交通等領域運用得當的話，預計還可以為全球經濟貢獻高達5.2萬億美元，並減少4%的總溫室氣體排放量，是這樣嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是我在你的報告裡面沒有看到，因為你只是分別在2030年、2032年、2035年要減量28±2%、32±2%、38±2%。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，我們是將AI需求增加的用電量放進去，但是沒有算出AI讓我們可以減碳的規模，我們目前在淨零的路徑裡面沒有特別計算。"],["劉委員建國：那我要跟部長再特別要求一份比較詳細的報告，關於AI對減碳的衝擊與因應，可以吧？"],["彭部長啓明：好，因為這涉及用電需求，所以……好，這個我們想辦法內部來討論一下。"],["劉委員建國：好，再麻煩部長，1個月可以吧？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國召委的發言，也謝謝部長的答詢。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：我們接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-8","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","牛煦庭","林淑芬","葉元之","王正旭","劉書彬","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃秀芳","楊曜","陳瑩","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-04-28"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00003"}}}