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{\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 190.97, \"end\": 190.99, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 192.418, \"end\": 217.183, \"text\": \"但是這個同時是存在它的間接一直在侵擾台灣對台灣的國家安全一直有威脅沒問題沒問題那個部分你就說它是境外敵對勢力它供水的時候它是不是我們境外敵對勢力這是一個契約行為是一個契約行為這時候那這時候它算是我們的敵對勢力嗎在供水的時候它是一個契約對象所以這時候它是契約對象不是境外敵對勢力喔不是喔契約對象也可以做很多的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 192.418, \"end\": 192.578, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 192.578, \"end\": 192.938, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 192.938, \"end\": 193.198, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 193.198, \"end\": 193.478, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 193.478, \"end\": 193.718, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 193.718, \"end\": 194.298, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 194.298, \"end\": 194.438, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 194.438, \"end\": 194.618, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 926.456, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"准\", \"start\": 926.456, \"end\": 926.657, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"备\", \"start\": 926.657, \"end\": 926.677, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:02,931\n我們有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好好院長早謝謝您今年到我們金門去關心謝謝委員那我們都知道基礎建設很重要尤其這個水和電的部分是所有地區發展的一個基本的這個要素我想請問我們今天是要來討論我們金門的這個用水問題\n\n2\n00:00:29,446 --> 00:00:58,166\n最近有媒體報導說大陸福建打算要建金門的第二供水通道形成雙水源的供水體系我們看到經濟部的水利署有做相關的回應他是說目前金門的水源充足自由水源達到75%以上所以沒有興建就是覺得大陸沒有興建第二供水第二通道的需求這個只是大陸單方面提出的構想院長這是我們行政院的立場\n\n3\n00:01:01,599 --> 00:01:20,796\n我剛問的這個問題,是我們行政院,你們經濟部回答,就是你們行政院的地方現在金門每日用水量2.6萬,那麼它的供水能力達到3.7萬那其中有一部分當然是引水進來的,但有一部分是海淡我們是自由水源75%是嗎好像沒這麼多吧好像沒有這麼多吧\n\n4\n00:01:24,745 --> 00:01:36,797\n這是你們的回答這是經濟部的回答水利使用金的目前水源充足自由水源達75%所以大陸沒有必要興建第二供水通道這是經貨回答所以我們自由水源是75%\n\n5\n00:01:38,905 --> 00:01:57,579\n接近吧好來院長我想那我要問一下院長到底聊不聊金門公園你說現在金門每天用水是2.6嘛那可以公水等於有3點2.6嘛每一天2.6立方米嘛2.6萬立方米每一日啦那我們自由水有3.7立方米院長這您有回答嗎這是你剛剛回答我說院長院長\n\n6\n00:02:01,533 --> 00:02:20,227\n供水能力是每天3.7萬啊需要的水只要2.6萬所以不缺水就對了飲水進來的有2萬左右吧是飲水是哪裡的是自由水源喔跟大陸水進來叫自由的嗎那總統是不是前一陣子剛3月13號剛說中國大陸是什麼\n\n7\n00:02:23,752 --> 00:02:49,104\n境外敵對勢力嘛所以跟境外敵對勢力給我們水叫做我們的自由水源喔你們現在的對大陸的定義怎麼這麼混亂啊境外敵對勢力是說他要建基一直在侵擾國家所以那時候是境外敵對勢力但他共水的時候他就不是境外敵對勢力了是吧共水是跟金門地區雙方之間長期以來的一個那共水是這時候他就不變成境外敵對勢力了\n\n8\n00:02:50,461 --> 00:03:10,990\n共水是買的吧?是買的沒錯,但是水是他的水,他也可以不賣嘛不是送的,對是買的沒錯是我們跟他簽訂一個合約長期再跟他賣每一天我們需要2.6萬噸的水,其中有2萬多噸從中國大陸來嘛是從那個水管過來嘛,我們當然跟他付費買啦是民生問題啦是民生問題,所以這個時候他就不是境外敵對實體這個意思嗎?\n\n9\n00:03:12,418 --> 00:03:37,183\n但是這個同時是存在它的間接一直在侵擾台灣對台灣的國家安全一直有威脅沒問題沒問題那個部分你就說它是境外敵對勢力它供水的時候它是不是我們境外敵對勢力這是一個契約行為是一個契約行為這時候那這時候它算是我們的敵對勢力嗎在供水的時候它是一個契約對象所以這時候它是契約對象不是境外敵對勢力喔不是喔契約對象也可以做很多的\n\n10\n00:03:38,334 --> 00:03:52,426\n境外敵對勢力也可以做很多商業行為啊我只要你這個清楚就好了我們也可以跟境外敵對勢力做很多商業的行為啦是這樣子嗎總統說要拖中入北你有沒有違反總統的意思我再次強調我們從以前的\n\n11\n00:03:58,391 --> 00:04:26,510\n西進南向東拓現在是合作陸北不反對我說的是拖中所以不是陸北拖中是脫離整個中國在經濟上對我們的威脅威脅所以他如果願意給我們東西就沒關係如果要威脅我們就不行他如果當作我們也是一個善意的契約對象就不應該對我們有敵意的軍機有我幫你解釋啦他如果對我們有善意把我們當作善意的契約對象就不應該用軍機將惡意的相向\n\n12\n00:04:27,911 --> 00:04:50,521\n我現在就要跟你討論水因為我的目的不是要跟你爭辯總統說這個好不好反正這是總統的說法也沒有經過立法院大家同意反正是他的政策方向他執政者方向我不是在挑戰這個我是要跟你討論下面的問題就是說當他是一個境外敵對世界的時候他現在是有善意的跟我們共水那我們也要考慮到有一天他可能不會跟我們共水這個也是有可能發生對吧\n\n13\n00:04:51,448 --> 00:05:18,236\n可能的惡意不只這些就是我先就金門地區來講嘛我先不要管到台灣島這邊來講金門地區嘛如果說他有山葉花要跟我們供水那這樣很好嘛你覺得反正這個是好的一個經濟行為也是可以的嘛可以嘛對吧剛剛你的說法是這樣子啦我們不能排除他有任何的惡意對他不排除嘛對啊所以那如果這樣講供電也是可以的啊金門現在電也虧損很大供電也應該要可以啊供水既然可行供電怎麼不可行呢那我們要在\n\n14\n00:05:19,315 --> 00:05:40,913\n安全能夠掌握的狀況之下當然一樣水也是一樣水電其實是一樣所以供電理論上也應該有可行我知道金門對中國大陸的一些依賴度是有的那我們也承認這個事實但是如果對方也承認這個事實就應該善意的對待我們有有有很善意也不用擔心金門的路客都有到金門來對金門經濟幫助很大那我想請問你\n\n15\n00:05:46,357 --> 00:06:10,167\n我不是要跟你討論路口,我要跟你討論水電所以在這個情況下,為了國安考慮,我要跟你討論的是在我們中華民國,我們台灣地區可以做什麼它現在供水,我們現在水百分之八十都是大陸來的,每一天我們也不排除哪一天突然兩岸的局勢會有變化所以我要跟您討論的是金門地區供水的自由水源是不是應該要增加更強一點\n\n16\n00:06:11,287 --> 00:06:35,439\n我舉一個例子來講你看喔同樣是離島地區金門澎湖馬祖這三個地區澎湖它的海淡水就佔它的水源的百分之八十一就是它的水大概百分之八十一是用海水淡化鹽水淡化在馬祖是百分之六十七那金門的海淡廠的人力每一天只有大概一千兩百噸就是零點五百分之零點五千分之五\n\n17\n00:06:35,999 --> 00:06:50,648\n我的意思就是說當然我們大部分的水現在都是從大陸來那我們當然也不排除啊站在政府有這個果然考慮的疑慮下當然如果好的方面我們希望連電也給他供嘛因為我們也可以減少虧損嘛我們也是很願意啊當然我知道現在政策可能如果照\n\n18\n00:06:51,488 --> 00:07:06,833\n院長剛剛說法只要是一個良善的企業行為接受那供電應該也要可以考慮嘛如果是往這個方向發展那但是現在如果我不跟你討論如果往壞的方向發展那我們的水是不是也應該要自己自主的能力要增加嘛這個沒錯吧\n\n19\n00:07:07,233 --> 00:07:09,754\n如果所有金門的國人都這麼認為的話我們願意重新考量把海水氮化的設施去設置\n\n20\n00:07:30,619 --> 00:07:40,311\n是我不認同但是我覺得我們要做準備啊妳認為就是說中國他一定會切斷妳嘛我不覺得他一定會切斷我啊但是我要做準備啊我不這樣認為我們本來的回應是說跟你一樣說認為他不會來這個切斷但是還是要做準備啊但是妳現在認為他會切斷嘛\n\n21\n00:07:48,420 --> 00:08:10,048\n沒有說他會切斷我不認為他會我跟你講我的立場我的意思就是說如果我們也贊成委員你的這個主張說他會切斷我們的水所以我們要未雨綢繆來做海水單位這個我們同意好我的意思就是說我是贊成經濟部說的說因為你們現在說自由水是75%這是在呼嚨百姓嘛因為事實上80%是大陸來的嘛\n\n22\n00:08:12,429 --> 00:08:31,199\n他賣給我們水不是我們的自由水源嘛但是我不在乎是有萬一啊就像我覺得兩岸以前在馬英九時代都不會打仗現在到了那種每天在這樣說什麼敵對勢力什麼會不會打仗連我自己都覺得不一定啊我都覺得說不定有可能打仗這是我的認知啊現在他每天飛機來一趟每天軍艦來一邊晃\n\n23\n00:08:35,981 --> 00:08:42,205\n這個擔心是正確的你的擔心是正確的所以我們認為我們認為你的擔心是正確的你終於發現他應該是敵外這個是總統的認知所以我們也願意你的考量\n\n24\n00:08:51,331 --> 00:09:11,027\n我會願意來評估我的擔心是來自於什麼我跟您說明我擔心來自因為我看到他軍機每天在那邊鬧軍機在那邊走我們的政府一點能力都沒有我的擔心在這裡因為他已經飛到我們的天空我們政府都還沒有辦法把他打下來這就是我的擔心所以你主張打下來已經開到了我們過的那個中線我們到連中線都沒有了這就是我的擔心\n\n25\n00:09:12,208 --> 00:09:25,743\n我支持啊只要飛我們領空就應該打下來那在金門上面飛的我們要不要先打下來如果專業領空就應該做這就是保衛中華民國主義的做法我當然支持我當然支持所以我跟你講我們的政府沒有連這樣做才讓我擔心我們終於有共識了\n\n26\n00:09:27,545 --> 00:09:52,788\n所以我們來講供水的部分因為今天不是國防是經濟的部分所以海淡的部分我支持政府因為政府既然整個政策這樣我們跟著這個政策走因為我原先覺得兩岸和平這樣最好它可以供水我們也減少虧損兩岸和平往來也很好既然政府已經把它定位為一個境外敵對市域那我們也要支持政府的政策支持政府的政策說好那水的部分也沒有75%是自由的\n\n27\n00:09:53,408 --> 00:10:17,158\n幾乎全部都是刀輪我們的海淡的部分事實上要加強我們也非常擔心你終於能夠支持說我們自己來供應我們支持在金門所有地方都可以自給自足不是只有水我們也希望電可以自給自足當然台電這個部分對金門幫助很大我們也很感謝但是水的部分是部長你是不是海淡廠幫我們多增加幾座我們會深入的評估如果委員支持的話我們深入評估我支持\n\n28\n00:10:18,198 --> 00:10:30,783\n馬祖五座彭峰十五座金門才兩座而且金門只能占0.12講難聽一點如果真的兩岸局勢變差我當然不希望金門走到那一步我也想應該不會但是萬一萬一萬一對你終於發現那個情勢已經變差了\n\n29\n00:10:32,984 --> 00:10:42,707\n形勢變差因為我們政府施政不力啦不然以前不是這樣子我們現在達成一個結論你們願意支持金門做海蛋多做一點讓他的自給力變高嘛這沒問題嘛好謝謝來那個國發會我想請問國發會這個主委之前這個謝謝金議部長這個趕快做海蛋廠多做一點\n\n30\n00:10:55,211 --> 00:11:20,731\n當然真的最好大陸可以不用共水這也是很好主委沒有來喔高副主委這個之前這個民進黨委員有說說今年啦什麼這個114年度離島基金的預算抓到大幅三減啦三減五千多萬啦就是說那我想請問副主委啦我們像本期金門立委陳怡貞跟馬祖烈陳怡貞我們有三離島基金嗎我們有三五千多萬的離島基金嗎\n\n31\n00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:42,294\n我們有刪除嗎?我們有提案刪除嗎?有刪除我們有提案嗎?你說的我們有刪除立法監測基金嗎?五千多萬嗎?我跟陳雪生有提這個案子嗎?那個委員沒有吧我沒有嘛對不對你們說是統三啦原始提案跟統三\n\n32\n00:11:44,895 --> 00:11:51,617\n沒有3啦你說的是統3我知道因為統36%嘛所以你們就把說那個6%等於是5000多萬就灌在陳雪生跟陳玉珍的頭上好沒關係統3那你覺得統3的話就是民進黨立委說這樣沒有顧及鄉親的權益好統3我們來看一下好不好今年因為有在野黨多數嘛所以你們就把在野黨統3多好灌在我們身上好那我們來看這樣說法公不公平\n\n33\n00:12:07,955 --> 00:12:25,221\n112年113年之前那時候民進黨是多數這沒疑問在立法院是絕對多數高副主委也知道雖然所言長不知道高副主委也知道多數那時候每年都統三百分之六這個設施費統三百分之六是歷年來的固定的\n\n34\n00:12:26,101 --> 00:12:44,209\n每一年就是在這個部分統三百分之六不管是哪一黨是多數在立法院每一年的設備與投資都是統三百分之六是每一年審查總預算都會刪的統三的項目啊所以如果按照劉主委說今年離島金被刪五千多萬就是我們國民黨立委在刪除\n\n35\n00:12:45,389 --> 00:13:03,596\n歷年的統三最後都會在草野協商跟行政院一家一家拔到一個統三的項目是是是我每年都有參加草野協商報告院長一年是沒有這樣做的報告院長最後的答案我講的是答案不是過程最後的過程112年跟113年也都是統三的6%的這個設備與投資費\n\n36\n00:13:06,437 --> 00:13:10,021\n那最多有達成協議啊沒有今年沒有達成協議而且很多其中在特定機關特定項目不能留用我現在講的只有針對離島基金的這一項我沒有在講其他我講的就是這一項那也是統三啊但是要在哪裡我們並不知道\n\n37\n00:13:26,878 --> 00:13:45,173\n跟往年一樣所以如果你今年如果你說今年這張山就是陳玉珍陳玄不重視這個離島建設刪除離島基金如果你要這樣灌在我們頭上那你要跟我說以前每一年民進黨多數已經有八年了都不重視離島建設不重視離島基金因為每一年都統山民進黨那時候都是多數國會都是多數這樣就沒錯吧\n\n38\n00:13:47,314 --> 00:14:08,485\n確實以前有達到協議今年是沒有的不管你有沒有達協議你看今年有沒有達協議結果都還一樣啊所以副主委你應該主張離島基金不能刪統刪不能刪離島基金我當然主張不能刪但是每一年都統刪那以前民進黨是不是也就在刪啊也就不注重離島權益呢因為最後都有達成協議該刪哪裡該刪哪個項目哪些科目都有達成協議啊副主委\n\n39\n00:14:15,268 --> 00:14:31,464\n你們這個院長你們這個只要辦那個說謊喔老百姓喔說謊就非常辦得很快我們沒有說謊半夜怎麼沒說謊你們說這樣是我們以前好你沒說謊那以前是不是民進黨就是那你是不是要對以前民進黨三這樣子六趴的離島建設基金來對不起離島人民來道歉\n\n40\n00:14:32,366 --> 00:14:45,492\n以前該刪哪裡兩院都有達成協議那所以以前刪這個也是刪6%就不應該道歉嗎所以民進黨刪了就不用道歉啊這次國民黨多數刪了就應該道歉喔我們連要刪哪裡都不知道要我們自己刪636億\n\n41\n00:14:47,709 --> 00:15:15,240\n這個就是給你們更大的權利啊讓你們知道哪些是比較不需要做的給你們權利讓你們決定哪些部會做得好哪些單位做得好不用刪哪些單位做得不好浪費的刪嘛這是對你們好啊連善意都看不出來你連善意而已都看不出來所以你們以前的三個離島基金統三六趴今年也是一樣並沒有多刪這是往年的慣例所以國發會的主委不應該說謊他今天沒有來\n\n42\n00:15:18,953 --> 00:15:26,677\n好,谢谢陈宇峥委员咨询,谢谢主任长,各部会首长的背景,谢谢。接下来请马文君委员咨询,刘许廷委员请准备。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t2931\t我們有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好好 院長早謝謝您今年到我們金門去關心謝謝委員那我們都知道基礎建設很重要尤其這個水和電的部分是所有地區發展的一個基本的這個要素我想請問我們今天是要來討論我們金門的這個用水問題\n29446\t58166\t最近有媒體報導說大陸福建打算要建金門的第二供水通道形成雙水源的供水體系我們看到經濟部的水利署有做相關的回應他是說目前金門的水源充足自由水源達到75%以上所以沒有興建就是覺得大陸沒有興建第二供水第二通道的需求這個只是大陸單方面提出的構想院長這是我們行政院的立場\n61599\t80796\t我剛問的這個問題,是我們行政院,你們經濟部回答,就是你們行政院的地方現在金門每日用水量2.6萬,那麼它的供水能力達到3.7萬那其中有一部分當然是引水進來的,但有一部分是海淡我們是自由水源75%是嗎好像沒這麼多吧好像沒有這麼多吧\n84745\t96797\t這是你們的回答這是經濟部的回答水利使用金的目前水源充足自由水源達75%所以大陸沒有必要興建第二供水通道這是經貨回答所以我們自由水源是75%\n98905\t117579\t接近吧好來院長我想那我要問一下院長到底聊不聊金門公園你說現在金門每天用水是2.6嘛那可以公水等於有3點2.6嘛每一天2.6立方米嘛2.6萬立方米每一日啦那我們自由水有3.7立方米院長這您有回答嗎這是你剛剛回答我說院長院長\n121533\t140227\t供水能力是每天3.7萬啊需要的水只要2.6萬 所以不缺水就對了飲水進來的有2萬左右吧是 飲水是哪裡的 是自由水源喔跟大陸水進來叫自由的嗎那總統是不是前一陣子剛3月13號剛說中國大陸是什麼\n143752\t169104\t境外敵對勢力嘛所以跟境外敵對勢力給我們水叫做我們的自由水源喔你們現在的對大陸的定義怎麼這麼混亂啊境外敵對勢力是說他要建基一直在侵擾國家所以那時候是境外敵對勢力但他共水的時候他就不是境外敵對勢力了是吧共水是跟金門地區雙方之間長期以來的一個那共水是這時候他就不變成境外敵對勢力了\n170461\t190990\t共水是買的吧?是買的沒錯,但是水是他的水,他也可以不賣嘛不是送的,對是買的沒錯是我們跟他簽訂一個合約長期再跟他賣每一天我們需要2.6萬噸的水,其中有2萬多噸從中國大陸來嘛是從那個水管過來嘛,我們當然跟他付費買啦是民生問題啦是民生問題,所以這個時候他就不是境外敵對實體這個意思嗎?\n192418\t217183\t但是這個同時是存在它的間接一直在侵擾台灣對台灣的國家安全一直有威脅沒問題沒問題那個部分你就說它是境外敵對勢力它供水的時候它是不是我們境外敵對勢力這是一個契約行為是一個契約行為這時候那這時候它算是我們的敵對勢力嗎在供水的時候它是一個契約對象所以這時候它是契約對象不是境外敵對勢力喔不是喔契約對象也可以做很多的\n218334\t232426\t境外敵對勢力也可以做很多商業行為啊我只要你這個清楚就好了我們也可以跟境外敵對勢力做很多商業的行為啦是這樣子嗎總統說要拖中入北你有沒有違反總統的意思我再次強調我們從以前的\n238391\t266510\t西進南向東拓現在是合作陸北不反對我說的是拖中所以不是陸北拖中是脫離整個中國在經濟上對我們的威脅威脅所以他如果願意給我們東西就沒關係如果要威脅我們就不行他如果當作我們也是一個善意的契約對象就不應該對我們有敵意的軍機有我幫你解釋啦他如果對我們有善意把我們當作善意的契約對象就不應該用軍機將惡意的相向\n267911\t290521\t我現在就要跟你討論水因為我的目的不是要跟你爭辯總統說這個好不好反正這是總統的說法也沒有經過立法院大家同意反正是他的政策方向他執政者方向我不是在挑戰這個我是要跟你討論下面的問題就是說當他是一個境外敵對世界的時候他現在是有善意的跟我們共水那我們也要考慮到有一天他可能不會跟我們共水這個也是有可能發生對吧\n291448\t318236\t可能的惡意不只這些就是我先就金門地區來講嘛我先不要管到台灣島這邊來講金門地區嘛如果說他有山葉花要跟我們供水那這樣很好嘛你覺得反正這個是好的一個經濟行為也是可以的嘛可以嘛 對吧剛剛你的說法是這樣子啦我們不能排除他有任何的惡意對 他不排除嘛 對啊所以那如果這樣講供電也是可以的啊金門現在電也虧損很大供電也應該要可以啊供水既然可行供電怎麼不可行呢那我們要在\n319315\t340913\t安全能夠掌握的狀況之下當然一樣 水也是一樣 水電其實是一樣所以供電理論上也應該有可行我知道金門對中國大陸的一些依賴度是有的那我們也承認這個事實但是如果對方也承認這個事實就應該善意的對待我們有有有 很善意也不用擔心金門的路客都有到金門來對金門經濟幫助很大那我想請問你\n346357\t370167\t我不是要跟你討論路口,我要跟你討論水電所以在這個情況下,為了國安考慮,我要跟你討論的是在我們中華民國,我們台灣地區可以做什麼它現在供水,我們現在水百分之八十都是大陸來的,每一天我們也不排除哪一天突然兩岸的局勢會有變化所以我要跟您討論的是金門地區供水的自由水源是不是應該要增加更強一點\n371287\t395439\t我舉一個例子來講 你看喔 同樣是離島地區金門 澎湖 馬祖這三個地區澎湖它的海淡水 就佔它的水源的百分之八十一就是它的水大概百分之八十一是用海水淡化 鹽水淡化在馬祖是百分之六十七那金門的海淡廠的人力 每一天只有大概一千兩百噸就是零點五 百分之零點五 千分之五\n395999\t410648\t我的意思就是說當然我們大部分的水現在都是從大陸來那我們當然也不排除啊站在政府有這個果然考慮的疑慮下當然如果好的方面我們希望連電也給他供嘛因為我們也可以減少虧損嘛我們也是很願意啊當然我知道現在政策可能如果照\n411488\t426833\t院長剛剛說法只要是一個良善的企業行為接受那供電應該也要可以考慮嘛如果是往這個方向發展那但是 現在如果我不跟你討論如果往壞的方向發展那我們的水是不是也應該要自己自主的能力要增加嘛這個沒錯吧\n427233\t429754\t如果所有金門的國人都這麼認為的話我們願意重新考量把海水氮化的設施去設置\n450619\t460311\t是 我不認同 但是我覺得我們要做準備啊妳認為就是說中國他一定會切斷妳嘛我不覺得他一定會切斷我啊 但是我要做準備啊我不這樣認為我們本來的回應是說跟你一樣說認為他不會來這個切斷但是還是要做準備啊但是妳現在認為他會切斷嘛\n468420\t490048\t沒有說他會切斷 我不認為他會 我跟你講 我的立場我的意思就是說如果我們也贊成委員你的這個主張說他會切斷我們的水所以我們要未雨綢繆來做海水單位 這個我們同意好 我的意思就是說我是贊成經濟部說的說因為你們現在說自由水是75%這是在呼嚨百姓嘛因為事實上80%是大陸來的嘛\n492429\t511199\t他賣給我們水不是我們的自由水源嘛但是我不在乎是有萬一啊就像我覺得兩岸以前在馬英九時代都不會打仗現在到了那種每天在這樣說什麼敵對勢力什麼會不會打仗 連我自己都覺得不一定啊我都覺得說不定有可能打仗這是我的認知啊現在他每天飛機來一趟 每天軍艦來一邊晃\n515981\t522205\t這個擔心是正確的你的擔心是正確的所以我們認為我們認為你的擔心是正確的你終於發現他應該是敵外這個是總統的認知所以我們也願意你的考量\n531331\t551027\t我會願意來評估我的擔心是來自於什麼 我跟您說明我擔心來自因為我看到他軍機每天在那邊鬧 軍機在那邊走我們的政府一點能力都沒有 我的擔心在這裡因為他已經飛到我們的天空 我們政府都還沒有辦法把他打下來這就是我的擔心所以你主張打下來已經開到了我們過的那個中線我們到連中線都沒有了 這就是我的擔心\n552208\t565743\t我支持啊 只要飛我們領空就應該打下來那在金門上面飛的我們要不要先打下來如果專業領空就應該做這就是保衛中華民國主義的做法 我當然支持我當然支持 所以我跟你講我們的政府沒有連這樣做才讓我擔心我們終於有共識了\n567545\t592788\t所以我們來講供水的部分因為今天不是國防是經濟的部分所以海淡的部分我支持政府因為政府既然整個政策這樣我們跟著這個政策走因為我原先覺得兩岸和平這樣最好它可以供水我們也減少虧損兩岸和平往來也很好既然政府已經把它定位為一個境外敵對市域那我們也要支持政府的政策支持政府的政策說好那水的部分也沒有75%是自由的\n593408\t617158\t幾乎全部都是刀輪我們的海淡的部分事實上要加強我們也非常擔心你終於能夠支持說我們自己來供應我們支持在金門所有地方都可以自給自足不是只有水我們也希望電可以自給自足當然台電這個部分對金門幫助很大我們也很感謝但是水的部分是部長你是不是海淡廠幫我們多增加幾座我們會深入的評估如果委員支持的話我們深入評估我支持\n618198\t630783\t馬祖五座 彭峰十五座 金門才兩座而且金門只能占0.12 講難聽一點如果真的兩岸局勢變差我當然不希望金門走到那一步 我也想應該不會但是萬一萬一萬一對 你終於發現那個情勢已經變差了\n632984\t642707\t形勢變差因為我們政府施政不力啦不然以前不是這樣子我們現在達成一個結論你們願意支持金門做海蛋多做一點讓他的自給力變高嘛這沒問題嘛好謝謝來那個國發會我想請問國發會這個主委之前這個謝謝金議部長這個趕快做海蛋廠多做一點\n655211\t680731\t當然真的 最好大陸可以不用共水 這也是很好主委沒有來喔 高副主委這個之前這個民進黨委員有說 說今年啦什麼這個114年度離島基金的預算 抓到大幅三減啦三減五千多萬啦 就是說 那我想請問副主委啦我們像本期金門立委陳怡貞跟馬祖烈陳怡貞 我們有三離島基金嗎我們有三五千多萬的離島基金嗎\n685250\t702294\t我們有刪除嗎?我們有提案刪除嗎?有刪除我們有提案嗎?你說的我們有刪除立法監測基金嗎?五千多萬嗎?我跟陳雪生有提這個案子嗎?那個委員沒有吧我沒有嘛對不對你們說是統三啦原始提案跟統三\n704895\t711617\t沒有3啦 你說的是統3我知道 因為統36%嘛所以你們就把說那個6%等於是5000多萬就灌在陳雪生跟陳玉珍的頭上好 沒關係 統3那你覺得統3的話 就是民進黨立委說這樣沒有顧及鄉親的權益好 統3 我們來看一下好不好今年因為有在野黨多數嘛所以你們就把在野黨統3多好 灌在我們身上好 那我們來看這樣說法公不公平\n727955\t745221\t112年113年之前那時候民進黨是多數這沒疑問在立法院是絕對多數高副主委也知道雖然所言長不知道高副主委也知道多數那時候每年都統三百分之六這個設施費統三百分之六是歷年來的固定的\n746101\t764209\t每一年就是在這個部分統三百分之六不管是哪一黨是多數在立法院每一年的設備與投資都是統三百分之六是每一年審查總預算都會刪的統三的項目啊所以如果按照劉主委說今年離島金被刪五千多萬就是我們國民黨立委在刪除\n765389\t783596\t歷年的統三最後都會在草野協商跟行政院一家一家拔到一個統三的項目是是是我每年都有參加草野協商報告院長一年是沒有這樣做的報告院長最後的答案我講的是答案不是過程最後的過程112年跟113年也都是統三的6%的這個設備與投資費\n786437\t790021\t那最多有達成協議啊沒有 今年沒有達成協議而且很多其中在特定機關 特定項目不能留用我現在講的只有針對離島基金的這一項我沒有在講其他 我講的就是這一項那也是統三啊 但是要在哪裡我們並不知道\n806878\t825173\t跟往年一樣所以如果你今年如果你說今年這張山就是陳玉珍陳玄不重視這個離島建設刪除離島基金如果你要這樣灌在我們頭上那你要跟我說以前每一年民進黨多數已經有八年了都不重視離島建設不重視離島基金因為每一年都統山民進黨那時候都是多數國會都是多數這樣就沒錯吧\n827314\t848485\t確實以前有達到協議 今年是沒有的不管你有沒有達協議你看 今年有沒有達協議 結果都還一樣啊所以 副主委你應該主張離島基金不能刪 統刪不能刪離島基金我當然主張不能刪 但是每一年都統刪那以前民進黨是不是也就在刪啊也就不注重離島權益呢因為最後都有達成協議 該刪哪裡該刪哪個項目 哪些科目都有達成協議啊副主委\n855268\t871464\t你們這個 院長你們這個只要辦那個說謊喔老百姓喔 說謊就非常 辦得很快我們沒有說謊半夜 怎麼沒說謊你們說這樣是我們 以前好 你沒說謊那以前是不是民進黨就是那你是不是要對以前民進黨三這樣子六趴的離島建設基金來對不起離島人民來道歉\n872366\t885492\t以前該刪哪裡 兩院都有達成協議那所以以前刪這個也是刪6%就不應該道歉嗎所以民進黨刪了就不用道歉啊這次國民黨多數刪了就應該道歉喔我們連要刪哪裡都不知道要我們自己刪636億\n887709\t915240\t這個就是給你們更大的權利啊讓你們知道哪些是比較不需要做的給你們權利讓你們決定哪些部會做得好哪些單位做得好不用刪哪些單位做得不好浪費的刪嘛這是對你們好啊連善意都看不出來你連善意而已都看不出來所以你們以前的三個離島基金統三六趴今年也是一樣並沒有多刪這是往年的慣例所以國發會的主委不應該說謊他今天沒有來\n918953\t926677\t好,谢谢陈宇峥委员咨询,谢谢主任长,各部会首长的背景,谢谢。接下来请马文君委员咨询,刘许廷委员请准备。\n","txt":"我們有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好好 院長早謝謝您今年到我們金門去關心謝謝委員那我們都知道基礎建設很重要尤其這個水和電的部分是所有地區發展的一個基本的這個要素我想請問我們今天是要來討論我們金門的這個用水問題\n最近有媒體報導說大陸福建打算要建金門的第二供水通道形成雙水源的供水體系我們看到經濟部的水利署有做相關的回應他是說目前金門的水源充足自由水源達到75%以上所以沒有興建就是覺得大陸沒有興建第二供水第二通道的需求這個只是大陸單方面提出的構想院長這是我們行政院的立場\n我剛問的這個問題,是我們行政院,你們經濟部回答,就是你們行政院的地方現在金門每日用水量2.6萬,那麼它的供水能力達到3.7萬那其中有一部分當然是引水進來的,但有一部分是海淡我們是自由水源75%是嗎好像沒這麼多吧好像沒有這麼多吧\n這是你們的回答這是經濟部的回答水利使用金的目前水源充足自由水源達75%所以大陸沒有必要興建第二供水通道這是經貨回答所以我們自由水源是75%\n接近吧好來院長我想那我要問一下院長到底聊不聊金門公園你說現在金門每天用水是2.6嘛那可以公水等於有3點2.6嘛每一天2.6立方米嘛2.6萬立方米每一日啦那我們自由水有3.7立方米院長這您有回答嗎這是你剛剛回答我說院長院長\n供水能力是每天3.7萬啊需要的水只要2.6萬 所以不缺水就對了飲水進來的有2萬左右吧是 飲水是哪裡的 是自由水源喔跟大陸水進來叫自由的嗎那總統是不是前一陣子剛3月13號剛說中國大陸是什麼\n境外敵對勢力嘛所以跟境外敵對勢力給我們水叫做我們的自由水源喔你們現在的對大陸的定義怎麼這麼混亂啊境外敵對勢力是說他要建基一直在侵擾國家所以那時候是境外敵對勢力但他共水的時候他就不是境外敵對勢力了是吧共水是跟金門地區雙方之間長期以來的一個那共水是這時候他就不變成境外敵對勢力了\n共水是買的吧?是買的沒錯,但是水是他的水,他也可以不賣嘛不是送的,對是買的沒錯是我們跟他簽訂一個合約長期再跟他賣每一天我們需要2.6萬噸的水,其中有2萬多噸從中國大陸來嘛是從那個水管過來嘛,我們當然跟他付費買啦是民生問題啦是民生問題,所以這個時候他就不是境外敵對實體這個意思嗎?\n但是這個同時是存在它的間接一直在侵擾台灣對台灣的國家安全一直有威脅沒問題沒問題那個部分你就說它是境外敵對勢力它供水的時候它是不是我們境外敵對勢力這是一個契約行為是一個契約行為這時候那這時候它算是我們的敵對勢力嗎在供水的時候它是一個契約對象所以這時候它是契約對象不是境外敵對勢力喔不是喔契約對象也可以做很多的\n境外敵對勢力也可以做很多商業行為啊我只要你這個清楚就好了我們也可以跟境外敵對勢力做很多商業的行為啦是這樣子嗎總統說要拖中入北你有沒有違反總統的意思我再次強調我們從以前的\n西進南向東拓現在是合作陸北不反對我說的是拖中所以不是陸北拖中是脫離整個中國在經濟上對我們的威脅威脅所以他如果願意給我們東西就沒關係如果要威脅我們就不行他如果當作我們也是一個善意的契約對象就不應該對我們有敵意的軍機有我幫你解釋啦他如果對我們有善意把我們當作善意的契約對象就不應該用軍機將惡意的相向\n我現在就要跟你討論水因為我的目的不是要跟你爭辯總統說這個好不好反正這是總統的說法也沒有經過立法院大家同意反正是他的政策方向他執政者方向我不是在挑戰這個我是要跟你討論下面的問題就是說當他是一個境外敵對世界的時候他現在是有善意的跟我們共水那我們也要考慮到有一天他可能不會跟我們共水這個也是有可能發生對吧\n可能的惡意不只這些就是我先就金門地區來講嘛我先不要管到台灣島這邊來講金門地區嘛如果說他有山葉花要跟我們供水那這樣很好嘛你覺得反正這個是好的一個經濟行為也是可以的嘛可以嘛 對吧剛剛你的說法是這樣子啦我們不能排除他有任何的惡意對 他不排除嘛 對啊所以那如果這樣講供電也是可以的啊金門現在電也虧損很大供電也應該要可以啊供水既然可行供電怎麼不可行呢那我們要在\n安全能夠掌握的狀況之下當然一樣 水也是一樣 水電其實是一樣所以供電理論上也應該有可行我知道金門對中國大陸的一些依賴度是有的那我們也承認這個事實但是如果對方也承認這個事實就應該善意的對待我們有有有 很善意也不用擔心金門的路客都有到金門來對金門經濟幫助很大那我想請問你\n我不是要跟你討論路口,我要跟你討論水電所以在這個情況下,為了國安考慮,我要跟你討論的是在我們中華民國,我們台灣地區可以做什麼它現在供水,我們現在水百分之八十都是大陸來的,每一天我們也不排除哪一天突然兩岸的局勢會有變化所以我要跟您討論的是金門地區供水的自由水源是不是應該要增加更強一點\n我舉一個例子來講 你看喔 同樣是離島地區金門 澎湖 馬祖這三個地區澎湖它的海淡水 就佔它的水源的百分之八十一就是它的水大概百分之八十一是用海水淡化 鹽水淡化在馬祖是百分之六十七那金門的海淡廠的人力 每一天只有大概一千兩百噸就是零點五 百分之零點五 千分之五\n我的意思就是說當然我們大部分的水現在都是從大陸來那我們當然也不排除啊站在政府有這個果然考慮的疑慮下當然如果好的方面我們希望連電也給他供嘛因為我們也可以減少虧損嘛我們也是很願意啊當然我知道現在政策可能如果照\n院長剛剛說法只要是一個良善的企業行為接受那供電應該也要可以考慮嘛如果是往這個方向發展那但是 現在如果我不跟你討論如果往壞的方向發展那我們的水是不是也應該要自己自主的能力要增加嘛這個沒錯吧\n如果所有金門的國人都這麼認為的話我們願意重新考量把海水氮化的設施去設置\n是 我不認同 但是我覺得我們要做準備啊妳認為就是說中國他一定會切斷妳嘛我不覺得他一定會切斷我啊 但是我要做準備啊我不這樣認為我們本來的回應是說跟你一樣說認為他不會來這個切斷但是還是要做準備啊但是妳現在認為他會切斷嘛\n沒有說他會切斷 我不認為他會 我跟你講 我的立場我的意思就是說如果我們也贊成委員你的這個主張說他會切斷我們的水所以我們要未雨綢繆來做海水單位 這個我們同意好 我的意思就是說我是贊成經濟部說的說因為你們現在說自由水是75%這是在呼嚨百姓嘛因為事實上80%是大陸來的嘛\n他賣給我們水不是我們的自由水源嘛但是我不在乎是有萬一啊就像我覺得兩岸以前在馬英九時代都不會打仗現在到了那種每天在這樣說什麼敵對勢力什麼會不會打仗 連我自己都覺得不一定啊我都覺得說不定有可能打仗這是我的認知啊現在他每天飛機來一趟 每天軍艦來一邊晃\n這個擔心是正確的你的擔心是正確的所以我們認為我們認為你的擔心是正確的你終於發現他應該是敵外這個是總統的認知所以我們也願意你的考量\n我會願意來評估我的擔心是來自於什麼 我跟您說明我擔心來自因為我看到他軍機每天在那邊鬧 軍機在那邊走我們的政府一點能力都沒有 我的擔心在這裡因為他已經飛到我們的天空 我們政府都還沒有辦法把他打下來這就是我的擔心所以你主張打下來已經開到了我們過的那個中線我們到連中線都沒有了 這就是我的擔心\n我支持啊 只要飛我們領空就應該打下來那在金門上面飛的我們要不要先打下來如果專業領空就應該做這就是保衛中華民國主義的做法 我當然支持我當然支持 所以我跟你講我們的政府沒有連這樣做才讓我擔心我們終於有共識了\n所以我們來講供水的部分因為今天不是國防是經濟的部分所以海淡的部分我支持政府因為政府既然整個政策這樣我們跟著這個政策走因為我原先覺得兩岸和平這樣最好它可以供水我們也減少虧損兩岸和平往來也很好既然政府已經把它定位為一個境外敵對市域那我們也要支持政府的政策支持政府的政策說好那水的部分也沒有75%是自由的\n幾乎全部都是刀輪我們的海淡的部分事實上要加強我們也非常擔心你終於能夠支持說我們自己來供應我們支持在金門所有地方都可以自給自足不是只有水我們也希望電可以自給自足當然台電這個部分對金門幫助很大我們也很感謝但是水的部分是部長你是不是海淡廠幫我們多增加幾座我們會深入的評估如果委員支持的話我們深入評估我支持\n馬祖五座 彭峰十五座 金門才兩座而且金門只能占0.12 講難聽一點如果真的兩岸局勢變差我當然不希望金門走到那一步 我也想應該不會但是萬一萬一萬一對 你終於發現那個情勢已經變差了\n形勢變差因為我們政府施政不力啦不然以前不是這樣子我們現在達成一個結論你們願意支持金門做海蛋多做一點讓他的自給力變高嘛這沒問題嘛好謝謝來那個國發會我想請問國發會這個主委之前這個謝謝金議部長這個趕快做海蛋廠多做一點\n當然真的 最好大陸可以不用共水 這也是很好主委沒有來喔 高副主委這個之前這個民進黨委員有說 說今年啦什麼這個114年度離島基金的預算 抓到大幅三減啦三減五千多萬啦 就是說 那我想請問副主委啦我們像本期金門立委陳怡貞跟馬祖烈陳怡貞 我們有三離島基金嗎我們有三五千多萬的離島基金嗎\n我們有刪除嗎?我們有提案刪除嗎?有刪除我們有提案嗎?你說的我們有刪除立法監測基金嗎?五千多萬嗎?我跟陳雪生有提這個案子嗎?那個委員沒有吧我沒有嘛對不對你們說是統三啦原始提案跟統三\n沒有3啦 你說的是統3我知道 因為統36%嘛所以你們就把說那個6%等於是5000多萬就灌在陳雪生跟陳玉珍的頭上好 沒關係 統3那你覺得統3的話 就是民進黨立委說這樣沒有顧及鄉親的權益好 統3 我們來看一下好不好今年因為有在野黨多數嘛所以你們就把在野黨統3多好 灌在我們身上好 那我們來看這樣說法公不公平\n112年113年之前那時候民進黨是多數這沒疑問在立法院是絕對多數高副主委也知道雖然所言長不知道高副主委也知道多數那時候每年都統三百分之六這個設施費統三百分之六是歷年來的固定的\n每一年就是在這個部分統三百分之六不管是哪一黨是多數在立法院每一年的設備與投資都是統三百分之六是每一年審查總預算都會刪的統三的項目啊所以如果按照劉主委說今年離島金被刪五千多萬就是我們國民黨立委在刪除\n歷年的統三最後都會在草野協商跟行政院一家一家拔到一個統三的項目是是是我每年都有參加草野協商報告院長一年是沒有這樣做的報告院長最後的答案我講的是答案不是過程最後的過程112年跟113年也都是統三的6%的這個設備與投資費\n那最多有達成協議啊沒有 今年沒有達成協議而且很多其中在特定機關 特定項目不能留用我現在講的只有針對離島基金的這一項我沒有在講其他 我講的就是這一項那也是統三啊 但是要在哪裡我們並不知道\n跟往年一樣所以如果你今年如果你說今年這張山就是陳玉珍陳玄不重視這個離島建設刪除離島基金如果你要這樣灌在我們頭上那你要跟我說以前每一年民進黨多數已經有八年了都不重視離島建設不重視離島基金因為每一年都統山民進黨那時候都是多數國會都是多數這樣就沒錯吧\n確實以前有達到協議 今年是沒有的不管你有沒有達協議你看 今年有沒有達協議 結果都還一樣啊所以 副主委你應該主張離島基金不能刪 統刪不能刪離島基金我當然主張不能刪 但是每一年都統刪那以前民進黨是不是也就在刪啊也就不注重離島權益呢因為最後都有達成協議 該刪哪裡該刪哪個項目 哪些科目都有達成協議啊副主委\n你們這個 院長你們這個只要辦那個說謊喔老百姓喔 說謊就非常 辦得很快我們沒有說謊半夜 怎麼沒說謊你們說這樣是我們 以前好 你沒說謊那以前是不是民進黨就是那你是不是要對以前民進黨三這樣子六趴的離島建設基金來對不起離島人民來道歉\n以前該刪哪裡 兩院都有達成協議那所以以前刪這個也是刪6%就不應該道歉嗎所以民進黨刪了就不用道歉啊這次國民黨多數刪了就應該道歉喔我們連要刪哪裡都不知道要我們自己刪636億\n這個就是給你們更大的權利啊讓你們知道哪些是比較不需要做的給你們權利讓你們決定哪些部會做得好哪些單位做得好不用刪哪些單位做得不好浪費的刪嘛這是對你們好啊連善意都看不出來你連善意而已都看不出來所以你們以前的三個離島基金統三六趴今年也是一樣並沒有多刪這是往年的慣例所以國發會的主委不應該說謊他今天沒有來\n好,谢谢陈宇峥委员咨询,谢谢主任长,各部会首长的背景,谢谢。接下来请马文君委员咨询,刘许廷委员请准备。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:02.931\n我們有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好好院長早謝謝您今年到我們金門去關心謝謝委員那我們都知道基礎建設很重要尤其這個水和電的部分是所有地區發展的一個基本的這個要素我想請問我們今天是要來討論我們金門的這個用水問題\n\n00:29.446 --> 00:58.166\n最近有媒體報導說大陸福建打算要建金門的第二供水通道形成雙水源的供水體系我們看到經濟部的水利署有做相關的回應他是說目前金門的水源充足自由水源達到75%以上所以沒有興建就是覺得大陸沒有興建第二供水第二通道的需求這個只是大陸單方面提出的構想院長這是我們行政院的立場\n\n01:01.599 --> 01:20.796\n我剛問的這個問題,是我們行政院,你們經濟部回答,就是你們行政院的地方現在金門每日用水量2.6萬,那麼它的供水能力達到3.7萬那其中有一部分當然是引水進來的,但有一部分是海淡我們是自由水源75%是嗎好像沒這麼多吧好像沒有這麼多吧\n\n01:24.745 --> 01:36.797\n這是你們的回答這是經濟部的回答水利使用金的目前水源充足自由水源達75%所以大陸沒有必要興建第二供水通道這是經貨回答所以我們自由水源是75%\n\n01:38.905 --> 01:57.579\n接近吧好來院長我想那我要問一下院長到底聊不聊金門公園你說現在金門每天用水是2.6嘛那可以公水等於有3點2.6嘛每一天2.6立方米嘛2.6萬立方米每一日啦那我們自由水有3.7立方米院長這您有回答嗎這是你剛剛回答我說院長院長\n\n02:01.533 --> 02:20.227\n供水能力是每天3.7萬啊需要的水只要2.6萬所以不缺水就對了飲水進來的有2萬左右吧是飲水是哪裡的是自由水源喔跟大陸水進來叫自由的嗎那總統是不是前一陣子剛3月13號剛說中國大陸是什麼\n\n02:23.752 --> 02:49.104\n境外敵對勢力嘛所以跟境外敵對勢力給我們水叫做我們的自由水源喔你們現在的對大陸的定義怎麼這麼混亂啊境外敵對勢力是說他要建基一直在侵擾國家所以那時候是境外敵對勢力但他共水的時候他就不是境外敵對勢力了是吧共水是跟金門地區雙方之間長期以來的一個那共水是這時候他就不變成境外敵對勢力了\n\n02:50.461 --> 03:10.990\n共水是買的吧?是買的沒錯,但是水是他的水,他也可以不賣嘛不是送的,對是買的沒錯是我們跟他簽訂一個合約長期再跟他賣每一天我們需要2.6萬噸的水,其中有2萬多噸從中國大陸來嘛是從那個水管過來嘛,我們當然跟他付費買啦是民生問題啦是民生問題,所以這個時候他就不是境外敵對實體這個意思嗎?\n\n03:12.418 --> 03:37.183\n但是這個同時是存在它的間接一直在侵擾台灣對台灣的國家安全一直有威脅沒問題沒問題那個部分你就說它是境外敵對勢力它供水的時候它是不是我們境外敵對勢力這是一個契約行為是一個契約行為這時候那這時候它算是我們的敵對勢力嗎在供水的時候它是一個契約對象所以這時候它是契約對象不是境外敵對勢力喔不是喔契約對象也可以做很多的\n\n03:38.334 --> 03:52.426\n境外敵對勢力也可以做很多商業行為啊我只要你這個清楚就好了我們也可以跟境外敵對勢力做很多商業的行為啦是這樣子嗎總統說要拖中入北你有沒有違反總統的意思我再次強調我們從以前的\n\n03:58.391 --> 04:26.510\n西進南向東拓現在是合作陸北不反對我說的是拖中所以不是陸北拖中是脫離整個中國在經濟上對我們的威脅威脅所以他如果願意給我們東西就沒關係如果要威脅我們就不行他如果當作我們也是一個善意的契約對象就不應該對我們有敵意的軍機有我幫你解釋啦他如果對我們有善意把我們當作善意的契約對象就不應該用軍機將惡意的相向\n\n04:27.911 --> 04:50.521\n我現在就要跟你討論水因為我的目的不是要跟你爭辯總統說這個好不好反正這是總統的說法也沒有經過立法院大家同意反正是他的政策方向他執政者方向我不是在挑戰這個我是要跟你討論下面的問題就是說當他是一個境外敵對世界的時候他現在是有善意的跟我們共水那我們也要考慮到有一天他可能不會跟我們共水這個也是有可能發生對吧\n\n04:51.448 --> 05:18.236\n可能的惡意不只這些就是我先就金門地區來講嘛我先不要管到台灣島這邊來講金門地區嘛如果說他有山葉花要跟我們供水那這樣很好嘛你覺得反正這個是好的一個經濟行為也是可以的嘛可以嘛對吧剛剛你的說法是這樣子啦我們不能排除他有任何的惡意對他不排除嘛對啊所以那如果這樣講供電也是可以的啊金門現在電也虧損很大供電也應該要可以啊供水既然可行供電怎麼不可行呢那我們要在\n\n05:19.315 --> 05:40.913\n安全能夠掌握的狀況之下當然一樣水也是一樣水電其實是一樣所以供電理論上也應該有可行我知道金門對中國大陸的一些依賴度是有的那我們也承認這個事實但是如果對方也承認這個事實就應該善意的對待我們有有有很善意也不用擔心金門的路客都有到金門來對金門經濟幫助很大那我想請問你\n\n05:46.357 --> 06:10.167\n我不是要跟你討論路口,我要跟你討論水電所以在這個情況下,為了國安考慮,我要跟你討論的是在我們中華民國,我們台灣地區可以做什麼它現在供水,我們現在水百分之八十都是大陸來的,每一天我們也不排除哪一天突然兩岸的局勢會有變化所以我要跟您討論的是金門地區供水的自由水源是不是應該要增加更強一點\n\n06:11.287 --> 06:35.439\n我舉一個例子來講你看喔同樣是離島地區金門澎湖馬祖這三個地區澎湖它的海淡水就佔它的水源的百分之八十一就是它的水大概百分之八十一是用海水淡化鹽水淡化在馬祖是百分之六十七那金門的海淡廠的人力每一天只有大概一千兩百噸就是零點五百分之零點五千分之五\n\n06:35.999 --> 06:50.648\n我的意思就是說當然我們大部分的水現在都是從大陸來那我們當然也不排除啊站在政府有這個果然考慮的疑慮下當然如果好的方面我們希望連電也給他供嘛因為我們也可以減少虧損嘛我們也是很願意啊當然我知道現在政策可能如果照\n\n06:51.488 --> 07:06.833\n院長剛剛說法只要是一個良善的企業行為接受那供電應該也要可以考慮嘛如果是往這個方向發展那但是現在如果我不跟你討論如果往壞的方向發展那我們的水是不是也應該要自己自主的能力要增加嘛這個沒錯吧\n\n07:07.233 --> 07:09.754\n如果所有金門的國人都這麼認為的話我們願意重新考量把海水氮化的設施去設置\n\n07:30.619 --> 07:40.311\n是我不認同但是我覺得我們要做準備啊妳認為就是說中國他一定會切斷妳嘛我不覺得他一定會切斷我啊但是我要做準備啊我不這樣認為我們本來的回應是說跟你一樣說認為他不會來這個切斷但是還是要做準備啊但是妳現在認為他會切斷嘛\n\n07:48.420 --> 08:10.048\n沒有說他會切斷我不認為他會我跟你講我的立場我的意思就是說如果我們也贊成委員你的這個主張說他會切斷我們的水所以我們要未雨綢繆來做海水單位這個我們同意好我的意思就是說我是贊成經濟部說的說因為你們現在說自由水是75%這是在呼嚨百姓嘛因為事實上80%是大陸來的嘛\n\n08:12.429 --> 08:31.199\n他賣給我們水不是我們的自由水源嘛但是我不在乎是有萬一啊就像我覺得兩岸以前在馬英九時代都不會打仗現在到了那種每天在這樣說什麼敵對勢力什麼會不會打仗連我自己都覺得不一定啊我都覺得說不定有可能打仗這是我的認知啊現在他每天飛機來一趟每天軍艦來一邊晃\n\n08:35.981 --> 08:42.205\n這個擔心是正確的你的擔心是正確的所以我們認為我們認為你的擔心是正確的你終於發現他應該是敵外這個是總統的認知所以我們也願意你的考量\n\n08:51.331 --> 09:11.027\n我會願意來評估我的擔心是來自於什麼我跟您說明我擔心來自因為我看到他軍機每天在那邊鬧軍機在那邊走我們的政府一點能力都沒有我的擔心在這裡因為他已經飛到我們的天空我們政府都還沒有辦法把他打下來這就是我的擔心所以你主張打下來已經開到了我們過的那個中線我們到連中線都沒有了這就是我的擔心\n\n09:12.208 --> 09:25.743\n我支持啊只要飛我們領空就應該打下來那在金門上面飛的我們要不要先打下來如果專業領空就應該做這就是保衛中華民國主義的做法我當然支持我當然支持所以我跟你講我們的政府沒有連這樣做才讓我擔心我們終於有共識了\n\n09:27.545 --> 09:52.788\n所以我們來講供水的部分因為今天不是國防是經濟的部分所以海淡的部分我支持政府因為政府既然整個政策這樣我們跟著這個政策走因為我原先覺得兩岸和平這樣最好它可以供水我們也減少虧損兩岸和平往來也很好既然政府已經把它定位為一個境外敵對市域那我們也要支持政府的政策支持政府的政策說好那水的部分也沒有75%是自由的\n\n09:53.408 --> 10:17.158\n幾乎全部都是刀輪我們的海淡的部分事實上要加強我們也非常擔心你終於能夠支持說我們自己來供應我們支持在金門所有地方都可以自給自足不是只有水我們也希望電可以自給自足當然台電這個部分對金門幫助很大我們也很感謝但是水的部分是部長你是不是海淡廠幫我們多增加幾座我們會深入的評估如果委員支持的話我們深入評估我支持\n\n10:18.198 --> 10:30.783\n馬祖五座彭峰十五座金門才兩座而且金門只能占0.12講難聽一點如果真的兩岸局勢變差我當然不希望金門走到那一步我也想應該不會但是萬一萬一萬一對你終於發現那個情勢已經變差了\n\n10:32.984 --> 10:42.707\n形勢變差因為我們政府施政不力啦不然以前不是這樣子我們現在達成一個結論你們願意支持金門做海蛋多做一點讓他的自給力變高嘛這沒問題嘛好謝謝來那個國發會我想請問國發會這個主委之前這個謝謝金議部長這個趕快做海蛋廠多做一點\n\n10:55.211 --> 11:20.731\n當然真的最好大陸可以不用共水這也是很好主委沒有來喔高副主委這個之前這個民進黨委員有說說今年啦什麼這個114年度離島基金的預算抓到大幅三減啦三減五千多萬啦就是說那我想請問副主委啦我們像本期金門立委陳怡貞跟馬祖烈陳怡貞我們有三離島基金嗎我們有三五千多萬的離島基金嗎\n\n11:25.250 --> 11:42.294\n我們有刪除嗎?我們有提案刪除嗎?有刪除我們有提案嗎?你說的我們有刪除立法監測基金嗎?五千多萬嗎?我跟陳雪生有提這個案子嗎?那個委員沒有吧我沒有嘛對不對你們說是統三啦原始提案跟統三\n\n11:44.895 --> 11:51.617\n沒有3啦你說的是統3我知道因為統36%嘛所以你們就把說那個6%等於是5000多萬就灌在陳雪生跟陳玉珍的頭上好沒關係統3那你覺得統3的話就是民進黨立委說這樣沒有顧及鄉親的權益好統3我們來看一下好不好今年因為有在野黨多數嘛所以你們就把在野黨統3多好灌在我們身上好那我們來看這樣說法公不公平\n\n12:07.955 --> 12:25.221\n112年113年之前那時候民進黨是多數這沒疑問在立法院是絕對多數高副主委也知道雖然所言長不知道高副主委也知道多數那時候每年都統三百分之六這個設施費統三百分之六是歷年來的固定的\n\n12:26.101 --> 12:44.209\n每一年就是在這個部分統三百分之六不管是哪一黨是多數在立法院每一年的設備與投資都是統三百分之六是每一年審查總預算都會刪的統三的項目啊所以如果按照劉主委說今年離島金被刪五千多萬就是我們國民黨立委在刪除\n\n12:45.389 --> 13:03.596\n歷年的統三最後都會在草野協商跟行政院一家一家拔到一個統三的項目是是是我每年都有參加草野協商報告院長一年是沒有這樣做的報告院長最後的答案我講的是答案不是過程最後的過程112年跟113年也都是統三的6%的這個設備與投資費\n\n13:06.437 --> 13:10.021\n那最多有達成協議啊沒有今年沒有達成協議而且很多其中在特定機關特定項目不能留用我現在講的只有針對離島基金的這一項我沒有在講其他我講的就是這一項那也是統三啊但是要在哪裡我們並不知道\n\n13:26.878 --> 13:45.173\n跟往年一樣所以如果你今年如果你說今年這張山就是陳玉珍陳玄不重視這個離島建設刪除離島基金如果你要這樣灌在我們頭上那你要跟我說以前每一年民進黨多數已經有八年了都不重視離島建設不重視離島基金因為每一年都統山民進黨那時候都是多數國會都是多數這樣就沒錯吧\n\n13:47.314 --> 14:08.485\n確實以前有達到協議今年是沒有的不管你有沒有達協議你看今年有沒有達協議結果都還一樣啊所以副主委你應該主張離島基金不能刪統刪不能刪離島基金我當然主張不能刪但是每一年都統刪那以前民進黨是不是也就在刪啊也就不注重離島權益呢因為最後都有達成協議該刪哪裡該刪哪個項目哪些科目都有達成協議啊副主委\n\n14:15.268 --> 14:31.464\n你們這個院長你們這個只要辦那個說謊喔老百姓喔說謊就非常辦得很快我們沒有說謊半夜怎麼沒說謊你們說這樣是我們以前好你沒說謊那以前是不是民進黨就是那你是不是要對以前民進黨三這樣子六趴的離島建設基金來對不起離島人民來道歉\n\n14:32.366 --> 14:45.492\n以前該刪哪裡兩院都有達成協議那所以以前刪這個也是刪6%就不應該道歉嗎所以民進黨刪了就不用道歉啊這次國民黨多數刪了就應該道歉喔我們連要刪哪裡都不知道要我們自己刪636億\n\n14:47.709 --> 15:15.240\n這個就是給你們更大的權利啊讓你們知道哪些是比較不需要做的給你們權利讓你們決定哪些部會做得好哪些單位做得好不用刪哪些單位做得不好浪費的刪嘛這是對你們好啊連善意都看不出來你連善意而已都看不出來所以你們以前的三個離島基金統三六趴今年也是一樣並沒有多刪這是往年的慣例所以國發會的主委不應該說謊他今天沒有來\n\n15:18.953 --> 15:26.677\n好,谢谢陈宇峥委员咨询,谢谢主任长,各部会首长的背景,谢谢。接下来请马文君委员咨询,刘许廷委员请准备。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":2.931,"text":"我們有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好好 院長早謝謝您今年到我們金門去關心謝謝委員那我們都知道基礎建設很重要尤其這個水和電的部分是所有地區發展的一個基本的這個要素我想請問我們今天是要來討論我們金門的這個用水問題"},{"start":29.446,"end":58.166,"text":"最近有媒體報導說大陸福建打算要建金門的第二供水通道形成雙水源的供水體系我們看到經濟部的水利署有做相關的回應他是說目前金門的水源充足自由水源達到75%以上所以沒有興建就是覺得大陸沒有興建第二供水第二通道的需求這個只是大陸單方面提出的構想院長這是我們行政院的立場"},{"start":61.599,"end":80.796,"text":"我剛問的這個問題,是我們行政院,你們經濟部回答,就是你們行政院的地方現在金門每日用水量2.6萬,那麼它的供水能力達到3.7萬那其中有一部分當然是引水進來的,但有一部分是海淡我們是自由水源75%是嗎好像沒這麼多吧好像沒有這麼多吧"},{"start":84.745,"end":96.797,"text":"這是你們的回答這是經濟部的回答水利使用金的目前水源充足自由水源達75%所以大陸沒有必要興建第二供水通道這是經貨回答所以我們自由水源是75%"},{"start":98.905,"end":117.579,"text":"接近吧好來院長我想那我要問一下院長到底聊不聊金門公園你說現在金門每天用水是2.6嘛那可以公水等於有3點2.6嘛每一天2.6立方米嘛2.6萬立方米每一日啦那我們自由水有3.7立方米院長這您有回答嗎這是你剛剛回答我說院長院長"},{"start":121.533,"end":140.227,"text":"供水能力是每天3.7萬啊需要的水只要2.6萬 所以不缺水就對了飲水進來的有2萬左右吧是 飲水是哪裡的 是自由水源喔跟大陸水進來叫自由的嗎那總統是不是前一陣子剛3月13號剛說中國大陸是什麼"},{"start":143.752,"end":169.104,"text":"境外敵對勢力嘛所以跟境外敵對勢力給我們水叫做我們的自由水源喔你們現在的對大陸的定義怎麼這麼混亂啊境外敵對勢力是說他要建基一直在侵擾國家所以那時候是境外敵對勢力但他共水的時候他就不是境外敵對勢力了是吧共水是跟金門地區雙方之間長期以來的一個那共水是這時候他就不變成境外敵對勢力了"},{"start":170.461,"end":190.99,"text":"共水是買的吧?是買的沒錯,但是水是他的水,他也可以不賣嘛不是送的,對是買的沒錯是我們跟他簽訂一個合約長期再跟他賣每一天我們需要2.6萬噸的水,其中有2萬多噸從中國大陸來嘛是從那個水管過來嘛,我們當然跟他付費買啦是民生問題啦是民生問題,所以這個時候他就不是境外敵對實體這個意思嗎?"},{"start":192.418,"end":217.183,"text":"但是這個同時是存在它的間接一直在侵擾台灣對台灣的國家安全一直有威脅沒問題沒問題那個部分你就說它是境外敵對勢力它供水的時候它是不是我們境外敵對勢力這是一個契約行為是一個契約行為這時候那這時候它算是我們的敵對勢力嗎在供水的時候它是一個契約對象所以這時候它是契約對象不是境外敵對勢力喔不是喔契約對象也可以做很多的"},{"start":218.334,"end":232.426,"text":"境外敵對勢力也可以做很多商業行為啊我只要你這個清楚就好了我們也可以跟境外敵對勢力做很多商業的行為啦是這樣子嗎總統說要拖中入北你有沒有違反總統的意思我再次強調我們從以前的"},{"start":238.391,"end":266.51,"text":"西進南向東拓現在是合作陸北不反對我說的是拖中所以不是陸北拖中是脫離整個中國在經濟上對我們的威脅威脅所以他如果願意給我們東西就沒關係如果要威脅我們就不行他如果當作我們也是一個善意的契約對象就不應該對我們有敵意的軍機有我幫你解釋啦他如果對我們有善意把我們當作善意的契約對象就不應該用軍機將惡意的相向"},{"start":267.911,"end":290.521,"text":"我現在就要跟你討論水因為我的目的不是要跟你爭辯總統說這個好不好反正這是總統的說法也沒有經過立法院大家同意反正是他的政策方向他執政者方向我不是在挑戰這個我是要跟你討論下面的問題就是說當他是一個境外敵對世界的時候他現在是有善意的跟我們共水那我們也要考慮到有一天他可能不會跟我們共水這個也是有可能發生對吧"},{"start":291.448,"end":318.236,"text":"可能的惡意不只這些就是我先就金門地區來講嘛我先不要管到台灣島這邊來講金門地區嘛如果說他有山葉花要跟我們供水那這樣很好嘛你覺得反正這個是好的一個經濟行為也是可以的嘛可以嘛 對吧剛剛你的說法是這樣子啦我們不能排除他有任何的惡意對 他不排除嘛 對啊所以那如果這樣講供電也是可以的啊金門現在電也虧損很大供電也應該要可以啊供水既然可行供電怎麼不可行呢那我們要在"},{"start":319.315,"end":340.913,"text":"安全能夠掌握的狀況之下當然一樣 水也是一樣 水電其實是一樣所以供電理論上也應該有可行我知道金門對中國大陸的一些依賴度是有的那我們也承認這個事實但是如果對方也承認這個事實就應該善意的對待我們有有有 很善意也不用擔心金門的路客都有到金門來對金門經濟幫助很大那我想請問你"},{"start":346.357,"end":370.167,"text":"我不是要跟你討論路口,我要跟你討論水電所以在這個情況下,為了國安考慮,我要跟你討論的是在我們中華民國,我們台灣地區可以做什麼它現在供水,我們現在水百分之八十都是大陸來的,每一天我們也不排除哪一天突然兩岸的局勢會有變化所以我要跟您討論的是金門地區供水的自由水源是不是應該要增加更強一點"},{"start":371.287,"end":395.439,"text":"我舉一個例子來講 你看喔 同樣是離島地區金門 澎湖 馬祖這三個地區澎湖它的海淡水 就佔它的水源的百分之八十一就是它的水大概百分之八十一是用海水淡化 鹽水淡化在馬祖是百分之六十七那金門的海淡廠的人力 每一天只有大概一千兩百噸就是零點五 百分之零點五 千分之五"},{"start":395.999,"end":410.648,"text":"我的意思就是說當然我們大部分的水現在都是從大陸來那我們當然也不排除啊站在政府有這個果然考慮的疑慮下當然如果好的方面我們希望連電也給他供嘛因為我們也可以減少虧損嘛我們也是很願意啊當然我知道現在政策可能如果照"},{"start":411.488,"end":426.833,"text":"院長剛剛說法只要是一個良善的企業行為接受那供電應該也要可以考慮嘛如果是往這個方向發展那但是 現在如果我不跟你討論如果往壞的方向發展那我們的水是不是也應該要自己自主的能力要增加嘛這個沒錯吧"},{"start":427.233,"end":429.754,"text":"如果所有金門的國人都這麼認為的話我們願意重新考量把海水氮化的設施去設置"},{"start":450.619,"end":460.311,"text":"是 我不認同 但是我覺得我們要做準備啊妳認為就是說中國他一定會切斷妳嘛我不覺得他一定會切斷我啊 但是我要做準備啊我不這樣認為我們本來的回應是說跟你一樣說認為他不會來這個切斷但是還是要做準備啊但是妳現在認為他會切斷嘛"},{"start":468.42,"end":490.048,"text":"沒有說他會切斷 我不認為他會 我跟你講 我的立場我的意思就是說如果我們也贊成委員你的這個主張說他會切斷我們的水所以我們要未雨綢繆來做海水單位 這個我們同意好 我的意思就是說我是贊成經濟部說的說因為你們現在說自由水是75%這是在呼嚨百姓嘛因為事實上80%是大陸來的嘛"},{"start":492.429,"end":511.199,"text":"他賣給我們水不是我們的自由水源嘛但是我不在乎是有萬一啊就像我覺得兩岸以前在馬英九時代都不會打仗現在到了那種每天在這樣說什麼敵對勢力什麼會不會打仗 連我自己都覺得不一定啊我都覺得說不定有可能打仗這是我的認知啊現在他每天飛機來一趟 每天軍艦來一邊晃"},{"start":515.981,"end":522.205,"text":"這個擔心是正確的你的擔心是正確的所以我們認為我們認為你的擔心是正確的你終於發現他應該是敵外這個是總統的認知所以我們也願意你的考量"},{"start":531.331,"end":551.027,"text":"我會願意來評估我的擔心是來自於什麼 我跟您說明我擔心來自因為我看到他軍機每天在那邊鬧 軍機在那邊走我們的政府一點能力都沒有 我的擔心在這裡因為他已經飛到我們的天空 我們政府都還沒有辦法把他打下來這就是我的擔心所以你主張打下來已經開到了我們過的那個中線我們到連中線都沒有了 這就是我的擔心"},{"start":552.208,"end":565.743,"text":"我支持啊 只要飛我們領空就應該打下來那在金門上面飛的我們要不要先打下來如果專業領空就應該做這就是保衛中華民國主義的做法 我當然支持我當然支持 所以我跟你講我們的政府沒有連這樣做才讓我擔心我們終於有共識了"},{"start":567.545,"end":592.788,"text":"所以我們來講供水的部分因為今天不是國防是經濟的部分所以海淡的部分我支持政府因為政府既然整個政策這樣我們跟著這個政策走因為我原先覺得兩岸和平這樣最好它可以供水我們也減少虧損兩岸和平往來也很好既然政府已經把它定位為一個境外敵對市域那我們也要支持政府的政策支持政府的政策說好那水的部分也沒有75%是自由的"},{"start":593.408,"end":617.158,"text":"幾乎全部都是刀輪我們的海淡的部分事實上要加強我們也非常擔心你終於能夠支持說我們自己來供應我們支持在金門所有地方都可以自給自足不是只有水我們也希望電可以自給自足當然台電這個部分對金門幫助很大我們也很感謝但是水的部分是部長你是不是海淡廠幫我們多增加幾座我們會深入的評估如果委員支持的話我們深入評估我支持"},{"start":618.198,"end":630.783,"text":"馬祖五座 彭峰十五座 金門才兩座而且金門只能占0.12 講難聽一點如果真的兩岸局勢變差我當然不希望金門走到那一步 我也想應該不會但是萬一萬一萬一對 你終於發現那個情勢已經變差了"},{"start":632.984,"end":642.707,"text":"形勢變差因為我們政府施政不力啦不然以前不是這樣子我們現在達成一個結論你們願意支持金門做海蛋多做一點讓他的自給力變高嘛這沒問題嘛好謝謝來那個國發會我想請問國發會這個主委之前這個謝謝金議部長這個趕快做海蛋廠多做一點"},{"start":655.211,"end":680.731,"text":"當然真的 最好大陸可以不用共水 這也是很好主委沒有來喔 高副主委這個之前這個民進黨委員有說 說今年啦什麼這個114年度離島基金的預算 抓到大幅三減啦三減五千多萬啦 就是說 那我想請問副主委啦我們像本期金門立委陳怡貞跟馬祖烈陳怡貞 我們有三離島基金嗎我們有三五千多萬的離島基金嗎"},{"start":685.25,"end":702.294,"text":"我們有刪除嗎?我們有提案刪除嗎?有刪除我們有提案嗎?你說的我們有刪除立法監測基金嗎?五千多萬嗎?我跟陳雪生有提這個案子嗎?那個委員沒有吧我沒有嘛對不對你們說是統三啦原始提案跟統三"},{"start":704.895,"end":711.617,"text":"沒有3啦 你說的是統3我知道 因為統36%嘛所以你們就把說那個6%等於是5000多萬就灌在陳雪生跟陳玉珍的頭上好 沒關係 統3那你覺得統3的話 就是民進黨立委說這樣沒有顧及鄉親的權益好 統3 我們來看一下好不好今年因為有在野黨多數嘛所以你們就把在野黨統3多好 灌在我們身上好 那我們來看這樣說法公不公平"},{"start":727.955,"end":745.221,"text":"112年113年之前那時候民進黨是多數這沒疑問在立法院是絕對多數高副主委也知道雖然所言長不知道高副主委也知道多數那時候每年都統三百分之六這個設施費統三百分之六是歷年來的固定的"},{"start":746.101,"end":764.209,"text":"每一年就是在這個部分統三百分之六不管是哪一黨是多數在立法院每一年的設備與投資都是統三百分之六是每一年審查總預算都會刪的統三的項目啊所以如果按照劉主委說今年離島金被刪五千多萬就是我們國民黨立委在刪除"},{"start":765.389,"end":783.596,"text":"歷年的統三最後都會在草野協商跟行政院一家一家拔到一個統三的項目是是是我每年都有參加草野協商報告院長一年是沒有這樣做的報告院長最後的答案我講的是答案不是過程最後的過程112年跟113年也都是統三的6%的這個設備與投資費"},{"start":786.437,"end":790.021,"text":"那最多有達成協議啊沒有 今年沒有達成協議而且很多其中在特定機關 特定項目不能留用我現在講的只有針對離島基金的這一項我沒有在講其他 我講的就是這一項那也是統三啊 但是要在哪裡我們並不知道"},{"start":806.878,"end":825.173,"text":"跟往年一樣所以如果你今年如果你說今年這張山就是陳玉珍陳玄不重視這個離島建設刪除離島基金如果你要這樣灌在我們頭上那你要跟我說以前每一年民進黨多數已經有八年了都不重視離島建設不重視離島基金因為每一年都統山民進黨那時候都是多數國會都是多數這樣就沒錯吧"},{"start":827.314,"end":848.485,"text":"確實以前有達到協議 今年是沒有的不管你有沒有達協議你看 今年有沒有達協議 結果都還一樣啊所以 副主委你應該主張離島基金不能刪 統刪不能刪離島基金我當然主張不能刪 但是每一年都統刪那以前民進黨是不是也就在刪啊也就不注重離島權益呢因為最後都有達成協議 該刪哪裡該刪哪個項目 哪些科目都有達成協議啊副主委"},{"start":855.268,"end":871.464,"text":"你們這個 院長你們這個只要辦那個說謊喔老百姓喔 說謊就非常 辦得很快我們沒有說謊半夜 怎麼沒說謊你們說這樣是我們 以前好 你沒說謊那以前是不是民進黨就是那你是不是要對以前民進黨三這樣子六趴的離島建設基金來對不起離島人民來道歉"},{"start":872.366,"end":885.492,"text":"以前該刪哪裡 兩院都有達成協議那所以以前刪這個也是刪6%就不應該道歉嗎所以民進黨刪了就不用道歉啊這次國民黨多數刪了就應該道歉喔我們連要刪哪裡都不知道要我們自己刪636億"},{"start":887.709,"end":915.24,"text":"這個就是給你們更大的權利啊讓你們知道哪些是比較不需要做的給你們權利讓你們決定哪些部會做得好哪些單位做得好不用刪哪些單位做得不好浪費的刪嘛這是對你們好啊連善意都看不出來你連善意而已都看不出來所以你們以前的三個離島基金統三六趴今年也是一樣並沒有多刪這是往年的慣例所以國發會的主委不應該說謊他今天沒有來"},{"start":918.953,"end":926.677,"text":"好,谢谢陈宇峥委员咨询,谢谢主任长,各部会首长的背景,谢谢。接下来请马文君委员咨询,刘许廷委员请准备。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（9時49分）謝謝院長。院長，我們有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長早。謝謝您今年到我們金門去關心。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們都知道基礎建設很重要，尤其水和電的部分是所有地區發展的一個基本的要素，我們今天是要來討論我們金門的用水問題。最近有媒體報導大陸福建打算要建金門的第二供水通道，形成雙水源的供水體系，我們看到經濟部的水利署有做相關的回應，它的回應是目前金門的水源充足，自有水源達到75%以上，所以覺得大陸沒有興建第二供水通道的需要。這個只是大陸單方面提出的構想，院長，這是行政院的立場嗎？我剛剛問的這個問題，是行政院的立場嗎？經濟部的回答就是行政院的立場嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在金門每日的用水量2.6萬，而它的供水能力已達到3.7萬，其中有一部分當然是引水進來，但有一部分是海淡……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們的自有水源有75%，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好像……"],["陳委員玉珍：是嗎，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：好像沒有這麼多吧！"],["陳委員玉珍：這是你們的回答，這是經濟部的回答，水利署說金門目前水源充足，自有水源達75%，所以大陸沒有必要興建第二供水通道，這是經濟部的回答啊！所以我們的自有水源是75%？"],["郭部長智輝：接近吧？2.6除以3.7……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那我問一下院長到底了不了解金門的供水情形，你說現在金門每天用水是2.6萬，而可以供水的能力有3.7……"],["郭部長智輝：除以3.7嘛，對不對？"],["陳委員玉珍：每一天2.6萬立方米，自有水源有3.7萬立方米，院長，這是你的回答嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：差不多啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：這是你剛剛的回答嗎？我說院長，是院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：供水能力是每天3.7萬。"],["陳委員玉珍：需要的水只要2.6萬，所以不缺水就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：引水進來的有2萬左右。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，引水是哪裡來的？是自有水源嗎？跟大陸引水進來叫自有的嗎？欸！賴總統前一陣子、3月13號剛說中國大陸是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：境外敵對勢力。"],["陳委員玉珍：境外敵對勢力嘛！所以境外敵對勢力給我們水，叫做我們的自有水源？你們現在對大陸的定義怎麼這麼混亂啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：境外敵對勢力是說他的艦機一直在侵擾國家的安全……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以那時候是境外敵對勢力，但他供水的時候，就不是境外敵對勢力，是吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：供水是跟金門地區雙方之間長期以來的一個……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，是。"],["卓院長榮泰：那供水是……"],["陳委員玉珍：這時候他就不變成境外敵對勢力了？"],["卓院長榮泰：供水是買的吧！"],["陳委員玉珍：是買的沒錯，但是水是他們的水源，他也可以不賣嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！水是買的，也不是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是送的，所以是買的沒錯，是我們跟他簽訂一個長期購買的合約，每一天我們需要2.6萬噸的水，其中有二萬多噸是從中國大陸的水管過來，我們當然是跟他付費買的，沒有錯啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是民生問題啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：是民生問題，所以這時候他就不是境外敵對勢力，是這個意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是同時存在他的艦機一直侵擾臺灣，對臺灣的國家安全一直有威脅。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒問題、沒問題，那個部分你說他是境外敵對勢力，但他供水的時候是不是我們的境外敵對勢力？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個契約行為。"],["陳委員玉珍：是一個契約行為，那在供水的時候，他算是我們的敵對勢力嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他是一個契約對象。"],["陳委員玉珍：這時候他是個契約對象，不是境外敵對勢力？不是喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：境外敵對勢力也可以做很多商業行為。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔！好，這個我只要你清楚就好了，所以我們也可以跟境外敵對勢力做很多商業行為，是這樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：事實是一直存在啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：那總統說要……"],["卓院長榮泰：他如果馬上……"],["陳委員玉珍：來！總統說要脫中入北，你有沒有違反總統的意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我再次強調，我們從以前的西進、南向、東拓，現在是北合，是合作……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不反對入北，入北不反對，我說的是脫中，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是入北，脫中是脫離整個中國在經濟上對我們的威脅，不是脫離中國的……"],["陳委員玉珍：喔！威脅？所以他如果願意給我們東西，就沒關係，如果要威脅我們，就不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：他如果當我們是一個善意的契約對象，就不應該讓對我們有敵意的軍機……"],["陳委員玉珍：喔！所以他展現善意就可以，我幫你解釋啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：他如果對我們有善意，把我們當作善意的契約對象，就不應該用軍機惡意相向。"],["陳委員玉珍：我現在要跟你討論的是水的問題，我的目的不是要跟你爭辯總統說的這個好不好，反正這是總統的說法，也沒有經過立法院大家的同意，反正這是他的政策方向、執政的方向，我不是在挑戰這個，我是要跟你討論下面的問題，就是當他是一個境外敵對勢力的時候，他現在是有善意的供水給我們，但我們也要考慮到有一天他可能不再供水給我們，這個也有可能發生，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：他可能的惡意不只這些。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啦！我先就金門地區來講，我先不管臺灣島的部分，就金門地區嘛！如果他有善意願意供水給我們，那這樣很好，你覺得這是一個好的經濟行為，也是可以的，對吧？剛剛你的說法是這樣子啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不能排除他有任何的惡意。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，不排除嘛！但如果照這樣講，那供電也可以啊！金門現在電也虧損很大，供電應該也可以，既然供水可行，供電怎麼不可行呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要在安全能夠掌握的狀況之下……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，是，當然一樣啊！水也是一樣，水電其實是一樣的，所以理論上供電也應該可行啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道金門對中國大陸是有一些依賴度，我們也承認這個事實，但是如果對方也承認這個事實，就應該善意的對待我們。"],["陳委員玉珍：有，很善意，你不用擔心，陸客都有到金門來，對金門的經濟幫助很大。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是飛機就不應該常常來啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是要跟你討論陸客，我要跟你討論水電，所以在這個情況下要為了國安考慮，我要跟你討論的是在我們中華民國、我們臺灣地區可以做什麼？現在我們每天的水80%都是大陸來的，那我們也不排除哪一天突然兩岸的局勢會有變化，所以我要跟您討論的是，金門地區供水的自有水源是不是應該要增加、更強一點？我舉一個例子來講，你看同樣是離島地區，金門、澎湖、馬祖這三個地區，澎湖的海淡水就占它水源的81%，它的水大概81%是用海水淡化、鹽水淡化；在馬祖是67%；那金門海淡廠的能力每一天大概只有1,200噸，就是0.5%，5%。","我的意思就是說，當然我們大部分的水現在都是從大陸來，那我們當然也不排除，站在政府有國安考慮的疑慮下，當然如果好的方面，我們希望連電也給他供，因為我們也可以減少虧損，我們也是很願意，當然我知道現在政策可能……如果照院長剛剛的說法，只要是一個良善的契約行為就可以接受，那供電應該也可以考慮嘛！如果是往這個方向發展。但是現在我只討論說，如果往壞的方向發展，那我們的水自給自足的能力是不是也應該要增加，這沒錯吧？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：要看經濟部怎麼規劃。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果你也認同中國大陸會對我們產生不友善的行為……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不認同，但是我覺得我們要做準備啊！"],["郭部長智輝：如果所有金門的國人都這麼認為的話，我們願意重新考量設置海水淡化設施。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，我不認同，但是我覺得我們要做準備啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你認為中國一定會切斷你嘛！所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不覺得他一定會切斷我啊！但是我要做準備啊！"],["郭部長智輝：未雨綢繆啦！我們本來……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不這樣認為。"],["郭部長智輝：我們本來的回應跟你一樣，認為他不會來切斷……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是還是要做準備啊！"],["郭部長智輝：但是你現在認為他會切斷嘛！那我們慎重考慮。"],["陳委員玉珍：我沒有說他會切斷，我不認為他會切斷……"],["郭部長智輝：我們慎重考慮嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：我跟你講站在我的立場……"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思就是說，我們也贊成委員你的這個主張嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：我是贊成……"],["郭部長智輝：說他會切斷我們的水，所以我們要未雨綢繆來做海水淡化，這個我們同意。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。我的意思就是說，我是贊成經濟部說的，因為你們現在說自有水源是75%，這是在糊弄百姓，因為事實上80%是大陸來的嘛！他賣給我們水，不是我們的自有水源嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是啦！所以你擔心……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我支持……"],["郭部長智輝：你擔心他不供給嘛！因為他是我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不知道，事有萬一啊！就像我覺得兩岸以前在馬英九時代都不會打仗，現在到了賴總統每天在這樣說什麼敵對勢力，會不會打仗？連我自己都覺得不一定啊！我都覺得說不定有可能打仗，這是我的認知啊！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員提醒我們啦！現在他每天飛機來繞，每天軍艦來這邊晃。"],["陳委員玉珍：是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這個擔心是正確的。"],["陳委員玉珍：非常不應該啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你的擔心是正確的，所以我們認為……"],["陳委員玉珍：我的擔心是因為……"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為你的擔心是正確的，你終於發現他應該是境外敵對勢力。"],["陳委員玉珍：那是總統的認知，這是總統的認知。"],["郭部長智輝：我們也願意……你的考量我們也願意來評估。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的擔心是來自於什麼？我跟您說明我的擔心來自什麼，因為我看到他的軍機每天在這邊繞、軍艦在這邊走，我們的政府一點能力都沒有，我的擔心在這裡，因為它已經飛到我們的天空，我們政府都還沒有辦法把它打下來，這就是我的擔心。"],["郭部長智輝：所以你主張打下來？"],["陳委員玉珍：已經過了我們的中線，我們現在連中線都沒有了，這就是我的擔心。"],["郭部長智輝：你主張打下來？"],["陳委員玉珍：我支持啊！只要飛到我們領空，就應該打下來。"],["郭部長智輝：那它在金門上面飛的，我們要不要先打下來？"],["陳委員玉珍：如果穿越領空就應該，這就是保衛中華民國的做法，我當然支持。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我跟你講，我們的政府沒有能力這樣做才讓我擔心。"],["郭部長智輝：我們終於有共識了。"],["陳委員玉珍：有共識還好，所以我們來講供水的部分，因為今天不是國防，是經濟的部分，所以海淡的部分，我支持政府，因為政府既然整個政策這樣，我們就跟著這個政策走，因為我原先覺得兩岸和平這樣最好，他可以供水、供電，我們也減少虧損，兩岸和平往來也很好，那既然政府已經把他定位為是一個境外敵對勢力，我們也要支持政府的政策，那支持政府政策就是說，水的部分也沒有75%是自有的，幾乎全部都是大陸的，我們的海淡部分事實上要加強，經濟部支持這個嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們也非常擔心啦！你終於能夠支持說我們自己來供應，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：支持啊！我們支持在金門所有地方都可以自給自足，不是只有水，我們也希望電可以自給自足，當然台電這個部分對金門幫助很大，我們也很感謝，但是水的部分，部長，你是不是海淡廠幫我們多增加幾座啊？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會深入的評估嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：你看馬祖有多少座啊？"],["郭部長智輝：如果委員支持的話，我們深入評估。"],["陳委員玉珍：我支持。馬祖5座、澎湖15座，金門才2座。"],["郭部長智輝：是、是、是。"],["陳委員玉珍：而且金門只能占0.1，講難聽一點，如果真的兩岸局勢變很差，我當然不希望金門走到那一步，我想也應該不會，但是萬一、萬一、萬一……"],["郭部長智輝：對，你終於發現情勢已經變差了。"],["陳委員玉珍：情勢變差，因為我們政府執政施政不力，不然以前不是這樣……"],["郭部長智輝：不是這個樣子，我想不是我們先談這個事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：不過沒關係，如果你們願意支持，我們現在達成一個結論，你們願意支持金門做海淡、多做一點，讓它的自給率變高，這沒問題嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。請國發會，我想請問國發會主委。謝謝經濟部長，趕快做海淡廠，多做一點啦！真的，最好大陸可以不用供水，這也是很好。","主委沒有來喔？高副主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：高副主委。"],["陳委員玉珍：之前民進黨委員有說今年114年度離島基金的預算遭到大幅刪減，刪減五千多萬，我想請問副主委，像本席金門立委陳玉珍跟馬祖立委陳雪生，我們有刪離島基金嗎？我們有刪五千多萬的離島基金嗎？我們有刪除嗎？我們有提案刪除嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有刪除。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們有提案嗎？你說的，我們有刪除離島建設基金五千多萬嗎？我跟陳雪生有提這個案子嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員沒有吧……"],["陳委員玉珍：我沒有嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再查一下……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我們再查一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們說的是統刪啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：查一下原始提案和統刪。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，應該是統刪……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有刪啦，你說的是統刪，我知道，因為統刪6%，所以你們把那個6%等於是五千多萬，就灌在陳雪生跟陳玉珍的頭上。好，沒關係，統刪，你覺得是統刪的話，民進黨立委說這樣沒有顧及鄉親的權益。","好，統刪，我們來看一下好不好？今年因為在野黨多數嘛！所以你們就把在野黨統刪多少灌在我們身上，我們來看這樣的說法公不公平，112年、113年，之前那時候民進黨是多數，這沒疑問吧？在立法院是絕對多數，高副主委也知道吧，卓院長不知道，高副主委知道是多數嘛！那時候每一年都統刪6%，設施費統刪6%是歷年來固定的，每一年就是在這個部分統刪6%，不管在立法院是哪一黨多數，每一年的設備與投資都是統刪6%，是每一年審查總預算都會統刪的項目啊！所以如果按照劉主委說，今年離島已經被刪五千多萬，就是我們國民黨立委在刪除……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您忘記了，歷年的統刪最後都會在朝野協商跟行政院一起協商……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有、沒有，我現在說的都是……"],["卓院長榮泰：達到一個統刪的項目、數量之後，確定數額……"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是、是，我每年都有參加朝野協商，報告院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：今年是沒有這樣做的。"],["陳委員玉珍：報告院長，最後的答案，我講的是答案不是過程，最後的過程，112年跟113年也都是統刪6%的設備與投資費，112年你查一下預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：但最後有達成協議……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，沒錯，今年沒有達成協議，最多也只有刪到這麼多，跟往年是一樣的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，今年沒有達成協議……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，我說的是這一項。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且很多集中在特定機關、特定項目、不能流用。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，我現在講的只有針對離島基金這一項，我沒有在講其他，我講的就是這一項。"],["卓院長榮泰：那也是統刪啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是、是，跟往年一樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是要刪哪裡我們並不知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，跟往年一樣。所以如果你說今年這樣刪就是陳玉珍、陳雪生不重視離島建設，刪除離島基金，如果你要這樣灌在我們頭上，你要跟我說，以前每一年，民進黨多數已經有八年了，都不重視離島建設、不重視離島基金，因為每一年都統刪，民進黨那時候都是多數，國會都是多數，這樣就沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：但確實以前有達到協議，今年是沒有的……"],["陳委員玉珍：不管你有沒有達到協議……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員為了離島基金，你應該主張離島基金不能刪。"],["陳委員玉珍：你看，今年沒有達到協議，結果都還一樣啊！所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你應該主張離島基金不能刪，統刪不能刪離島基金，但今年沒有達成協議。"],["陳委員玉珍：我當然主張不能刪，但是每一年都統刪，那是不是以前民進黨也在刪，也就不注重離島權益呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為最後都有達成協議，該刪哪裡……"],["陳委員玉珍：達成協議，你們還要求要刪喔？那這樣就是不對的啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：該刪哪個項目、哪些科目都有達成協議啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以副主委、院長，你們只要辦老百姓說謊就辦得很快，馬上半夜……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有說謊！"],["陳委員玉珍：怎麼沒說謊？好，你沒說謊，那你是不是也要對以前民進黨刪6%的離島建設基金對不起離島人民來道歉？"],["卓院長榮泰：以前該刪哪裡，兩院都有達成協議，該刪哪些……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以以前刪這個也是刪6%，就不應該道歉嗎？所以民進黨刪了就不用道歉，這次國民黨多數刪了就應該道歉喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：這一次是我們連要刪哪裡都不知道，要我們自己刪636億。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個就是給你們更大的權力，讓你們知道哪些是比較不需要做的，我想請問……"],["卓院長榮泰：讓我們自己刪哪是給我們更大的權力？要我們自己刪掉636億哪是權力？"],["陳委員玉珍：給你們權力，讓你們決定哪些部會、哪些單位做得好不用刪，哪些單位做不好、浪費了刪嘛！這是對你們好啊，連善意都看不出來、你連善意都看不出來，所以你們以前也刪了離島基金，統刪6%，今年也是一樣，並沒有多刪，這是往年的慣例，所以國發會主委不應該說謊，他今天沒有來，他不應該說謊。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有說謊，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請馬文君委員質詢，牛煦庭委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","廖偉翔","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","馬文君","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","吳秉叡","沈發惠","許宇甄","李昆澤","林思銘","葛如鈞","許智傑","林倩綺","蔡其昌","吳沛憶","李坤城","丁學忠","劉書彬"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00004","1143901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143901_00004"}}}